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 I'VE BEEN READING SOME OF WHAT YOU ALL HAVE BEEN SAYING, AND I AM CURIOUS TO KNOW...HOW CAN THE SAME PEOPLE WHO CONFESS THAT JESUS, GOD, AND THE HOLY SPIRIT ARE ONE (AND YOU ARE RIGHT), STILL CONFESS THE TRINITY? ISN'T THE TRINITY THE BELIEF IN THE SEPERATE INDIVIDUAL THREE, HENCE THE WORD "TRI"NITY? ISN'T THATS CALLED A CONTRADICTORY CONFESSION?

Hello GKB,

The detailed answer to your question is in the thread you asked this same question. If you want more detail, look in "Is Jesus God - Part 1". If you want answers from the Holy Bible, you'll find overwhelming details there.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Philippians 4:6 NASB  Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God.

Trinty, this is the teaching of God in the persons of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Each fully God, each showing full divine nature. Luke3:21,22

The Father is the fountainhead of the Trinity, the creator, the first cause. The Son is the LOGOS or expression of God, the holy begotten one of the Father and He is God. He reveals the Father to us. John 5:17

The Son of God is both the agent of creation and mankind's only redeemer.

The Holy Spirit, the third person of the Godhead or Trinity, proceeds from the Father and is worshipped and glorified together with the Father and the Son. He inspired the scriptures, empowers the saints, and convicts the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgement. (John16:8)

This is a mystery that will be understood once we enter heaven.

Hello Brother Gary,

AMEN!!

The Holy Trinity is a complicated topic for many, especially the lost. For me, I must say that it is a topic that is more beautiful and precious by the day. We've tried dozens of ways to explain this difficult topic. On the other side of the coin is the simplicity of the Gospel of the Grace of God, JESUS and the Cross. I give thanks this is simple enough for a child to understand, and I many times think that we should concentrate more heavily on JESUS and the Cross. I'm thinking right now about many beautiful portions of Scripture written by the Apostle Paul.

Romans 5:17-18 NASB  For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.  So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

Romans 15:5-7 NASB  Now may the God who gives perseverance and encouragement grant you to be of the same mind with one another according to Christ Jesus, so that with one accord you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, accept one another, just as Christ also accepted us to the glory of God.

Romans 10:8-10 NASB  But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Romans 6:23 NASB  For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Galatians 3:22-26 NASB  But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

And then one beautiful portion from John:

John 17:21-23 NASB  that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. "The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me.

Brother, I know we must try to answer the most complicated questions that many have about the Holy Bible. But, I also know that the Holy Spirit of God is required for a student to understand the deeper things of God's Word. That's why we have our "JESUS is GOD" threads. I many times hope and pray that our many visitors could simply say, OH! - Just to belong to JESUS and have JESUS as the LORD and center of my life!

Brother, in the meantime we will simply pray for guidance about what to say and keep trying. By the way, WELCOME!! to Christians Unite.


I'm looking forward to reading your posts and enjoying Christian fellowship with you.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Colossians 2:6-7 NASB  Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude.

As soon as I read this post this verse poped into my head.

John 10:33 "I and my Father are one."

That was Jesus speaking.

God is 3 in one. Father, Spirit and Son. I can't say that I completely understand it but I accept it.  And it has to be so because Jesus is God the son and says that it is so and I know that Jesus isn't a liarer so it must be true.

Also read Pastor Roger's pages, they help alot.

Love in Christ,
Kristen

DID YOU READ WHERE I AGREED THAT JESUS-THE FATHER, THE SON, AND THE HOLY GHOST ARE ONE??? THATS NOT WHAT I'M ASKING. IF THEY ARE ONE, HOW DID WE BEGIN TO DESCRIBE JESUS AS THREE (TRINITY). THATS WHAT I'M ASKING. I BELIEVE MANY OF US DO NOT STUDY FOR OURSELVES, AND WE JUST SAY WHAT SOUNDS GOOD...NOW PLEASE TO THE REST OF YOU WHO ARE "TEACHING" WHERE IS TRINITY IN THE BIBLE? I'M ASKING BECAUSE THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE WHO I HAVE HEARD USE THE WORD TRINITY, ASSOCIATED IT WITH THREE SEPERATE INDIVIDUALS, SO MY CONCERN IS TO KNOW THAT TRUE PEOPLE OF GOD DO NOT AGREE WITH THAT.

Hi GKB,

First all please stop "shouting" (turn your caps off).

No the Bible does not say "trinity" but there are a lot of different words that we use today that are not in the Bible either. This does not make them any more invalid than any others.

The term trinity came about because of the verses that show there to be three and the word trinity indicates three. Yet as you said they are one.

1Jo 5:7  For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
1Jo 5:8  And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

So you see we did not say that Jesus is three. The Bible speaks of God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit as separate entities in more than one place, and yet it also tells us that they are one.

Hello GKB,

I see now that you agree there are three, and the three are one, so I assume you are complaining about the term "Trinity". So, you are saying the same thing we are with just different words. "Trinity" simply means three, and Christians use the term "Holy Trinity" when talking about Almighty God. If you don't like the term, don't use it. YET, you agree with what it means.   ???

Say it the long way if you wish:

Almighty God is:

God the Father;

God the Son (Jesus);

and God the Holy Spirit;

and the THREE ARE ONE.

The above is what you say that you agree with, and that is the definition of "Holy Trinity". So, you obviously believe in the "Holy Trinity", you just don't like the term. So, say it the long way and make yourself happy.

Love In Christ,
Tom

John 10:27-28 NASB  "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

actually i believe the correct way to say it is JESUS! THE TERM TRINITY SHOULD NOT BE A SUBSTITUTE FOR THE NAME OF JESUS. THE LONG AND THE SHORT WAY TO SAY GOD, SON, AND HOLY SPIRIT IS JESUS!

Hello GKB,

It's time for you to do some study in this area for yourself. The term "Trinity" is NOT used as a substitute for the name of Jesus. Read my previous post. I don't know how I could state it more simply. The term "HOLY TRINITY" is used to describe the three personages present in ALMIGHTY GOD:

1 - God the Father
2 - God the Son
3 - God the Holy Spirit

When I mean JESUS, I say JESUS. When I mean HOLY SPIRIT, I say HOLY SPIRIT. When I mean GOD THE FATHER, I say GOD THE FATHER. You would be extremely confused with many portions of Scripture until you clearly understand this. YES, the THREE ARE ONE, but there are also THREE PERSONAGES OF ALMIGHTY GOD. As an example, God the Son (Jesus Christ) died on the Cross for our sins. God the Father was in Heaven at the time, and God the Holy Spirit was given up (still living) by the physical body of Jesus Christ when the physical body of Jesus died. There are a host of other examples. In short, you could not remove the various names and personages of Almighty God from the Holy Bible and still have the Holy Bible make sense.

When I'm talking about the THREE PERSONAGES OF ALMIGHTY GOD, I say HOLY TRINITY. The THREE are all HOLY and distinct, yet THEY ARE ONE. THEY (plural) is correct, but ONE is also correct. I realize this is difficult to understand.

Love In Christ,
Tom

1 John 5:4-5 NASB  For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith. Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

Pastor Roger, please forgive me if i appear to be shouting, I am not, I just tend to type in caps.....please forgive me.

the devils plan is to dilute the name of JESUS, I'm just afraid that many times we assist in that without knowing. i know that all three manisfestations are equally important, however, i just try do do all things in the name of JESUS. when you take the name JESUS, you automatically take the father and the holy spirit, and the son....which are titles. you'd agree if its one thing we do not need anymore worshiping of, its titles.

Greetings one and all in the wonderfull name of our Lord
and savior. It has been a while since I have had time to
make a post, but I have this week of both from my job(I
am on vacation) and from my duties as associate pastor!
That is indeed a rarity(and some people say that miracles
don't happen anymore!) ;D ;D

I will try to add my two cents worth to this discussion, and
hopefully it will be of some help.
 In Isaiah 42: 8 we read"I am the Lord, that is my name..."
we read in Matt 1:21 "she will give birth to a son, and you
will name him Jesus..."
Again in Luke 2:11 we read"for unto you is born this day
in the city of David a savior, which is Christ the Lord.

Matt 28:19 tells us to baptize in the "name" of the father,
son, and holy Ghost. One name,for the three manifestations
of God. I Tim 3:16.
I believe that that one name is  Lord    Jesus    Christ.
in Hebrew it would be adonai(lord) Yeshua(Jesus)
haMachiach(Christ). One name for the Godhead. Three
seperate personalities, but still one God.
Gen. reads Let us(plural)make man(singular) in our(plural)
image(singular). Just as we are also three in one like our
God. We have a body, a soul, and a spirit. So too does our
God have the father, the son, and the holy ghost.

respectfully yours in Yeshua:

ravenloche  ie Rev. Joseph Barnhouse Sr.

Hello Ravenloche,

AMEN BROTHER!!

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 104:33-34 NASB  I will sing to the LORD as long as I live; I will sing praise to my God while I have my being.  Let my meditation be pleasing to Him; As for me, I shall be glad in the LORD.

i understand matt 28, but have you read the instruction given after jesus was crucified? try acts 2:38-than peter said unto them, repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of jesus christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the holy ghost. you can also look at acts 8:12, acts 8:16, acts 19:4-5, and romans 6:3. these were the instruction given after jesus had gave up the ghost. it is because of the power in the name of jesus christ. the great commission was given while jesus was still here in the flesh, the new commission is given after he was rasied to glory. so pastors, and teachers, and reachers, how do you baptize?

Hello GKB, it seems you still hang on the same thing tho many above have clearly mentioned that TRINITY is NOT the Name of JESUS; that Jesus is just one of the Three.

Try to understand from the following illustrations:

ICE CREAM: Vanila ice cream, Strawberry ice cream  and Chocolate ice cream; Different flavours but all have exactly the same texture, feel, properties etc. Only one difference is the flavour. Same way, Father-Son-Holy Spirit, all are One in Godship but have different flavours of character; personalities. Three-in-one.

Take some WATER and boil it. After some time, it will evaporate and becomes STEAM. If you freeze the water, it becomes ICE. [If you cool steam, it becomes water again and if you warm ice, it becomes water again.] So, there are THREE distinct things; water, steam and ice; yet, in fact, they are ONE.

Electricity - unseen in the wire - FATHER.
Heat - felt but not seen, in an electric bulb - HOLY SPIRIT.
Light - JESUS is the Light of the world, can be seen and experienced.

Hope this will help you understand more. Keep on reading the Bible and ask the Holy Spirit... He is the best Teacher.

God bless you.

Hello HIServant,


I really like this analogy and have never heard this one before. I was thinking about my own experiences with JESUS while reading this and how much I love HIM more each day.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Matthew 11:28-30 NASB  "Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.  "Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS.  "For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."

hi servant, i said the exact same thing about ice, water, and steam. i do like the idea of the electricity example. so i agree. but i'm only asking, can we make up terminologies, adopt, them and call them holy? god ment what he said when he said it. if he wanted it to say trinity, do you think that hes sure enough to say trinity? once again i believe there are three manisfestations of one, thats not just a good idea, thats the truth.

The teaching of the Trinity is very often misunderstood. Some think that it is the teaching of three separate gods. It is not three separate gods. It is ONE GOD in three manisfestations, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Even though the word "Trinity" is not used in the Bible it does teach us just this .... ONE GOD in three different manifestations. Just because this word was not used in the Bible does not make it false. There are many words used today that were not used in the Bible. It does not make them false unless the meaning behind them, the context, is false.

Another example is calling the beast of Revelations the anti-Christ. There are those that will dispute this unendingly. Anti-Christ means to be against Christ. The beast of Revelations is against Christ and all that is Christ therefore it is also ANTI-CHRIST.

Some go so far as to say that you can only use the word Yeshua when referring to Him. Others say it must be YHWH and to use any other name is blasphemy.

Jesus Christ, Yeshua, Jehoshua, God, YHWH, the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit or hundreds of others, HE IS ALL ONE AND THE SAME

I posted a description of what the Trinity is like, also, but can't find it.

Father......Son.........Holy Spirit.  They are ONE in/and the same.  Example:

You can be a grandfather, father, and son.  You are one person, but have different roles; role of father, sometimes; role of grandfather, sometimes;  role of son, sometimes.  It's the same with God............God the Father (creator) is God, God the Son (Jesus Christ) is God, and God the Holy Spirit (Helper) is God.............different manifestations of the same God.
This is as close as I can come to a definition, albeit imperfect, as we aren't omnipotent (absolute power), omniscient (knowing all), or omnipresent (being everywhere at the same time).  

IMO, when we (Adam and Eve) were "in the garden" we KNEW God.  We only needed to OBEY His command not to eat of the "tree of knowledge."  We didn't have to THINK about it. Then the serpent entered and tempted Eve to see (think) things differently.  It seemed like a good thing.  The rest is history.  When Adam and Eve disobeyed God's command, they sinned, and that sin caused a breach in their relationship to God as they had KNOWN Him.  God and sin can't intimately fellowship.  So we must toil (THINK).  When we see Him, we will be like Him.  Our relationship with Him will be restored.  Oh, but there's lots that must be done between those last two sentences.  We must be reborn.  Praise God that He loved us enough to provide the way back to Him through the sacrifice His son Jesus Christ.  What a loving and merciful God we have the privilege of serving.

The form in which this doctrine lies in the Bible, and in which it enters into the faith of the Church universal, includes substantially the following particulars.

    1. There is one only living and true God, or divine Being. The religion of the Bible stands opposed not only to Atheism, but to all forms of polytheism. The Scriptures everywhere assert that Jehovah alone is God. (Deut. vi. 4.) "The Lord our God is one Lord." "I am the first, and I am the last; and besides me there is no God." (Is. xliv. 6.) "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well." (James ii. 19.) The Decalogue, which is the foundation of the moral and religious code of Christianity, as well as of Judaism, has as its first and greatest commandment., "Thou shalt have no other God before me." No doctrine, thererfore, can possibly be true which contradicts this primary truth of natural as well as of revealed religion.

    2. In the Bible all divine titles and attributes are ascribed equally to the Father, Son, and Spirit. The same divine worship is rendered to them. The one is as much the object of adoration, love, confidence, and devotion as the other. It is not more evident that the Father is God, than that the Son is God; nor is the deity of the Father and Son more clearly revealed than that of the Spirit.

    3. The terms Father, Son, and Spirit do not express different relations of God to his creatures. They are not analogous to the terms Creator, Preserver, and Benefactor, which do express such relations. The Scriptural facts are, (a.) The Father says I; the Son says I; the Spirit says I. (b.) The Father says Thou to the Son, and the Son says Thou to the Father; and in like manner the Father and the Son use the pronouns He and Him in reference to the Spirit. (c.)The Father loves the Son; the Son loves the Father; the Spirit testifies of the Son. The Father, Son, and Spirit are severally subject and object. They act and are acted upon, or are the objects of action. Nothing is added to these facts when it is said that the Father, Son, and Spirit are distinct persons; for a person is an intelligent subject who can say I, who can be addressed as Thou, and who can act and can be the object of action. The summation of the above facts is expressed in the proposition, The one divine. Being subsists in three persons, Father, Son, and Spirit. This proposition adds nothing to the facts themselves; for the facts are, (1.) That there is one divine Being. (2.) The Father, Son, and Spirit are divine. (3.) The Father, Son, and Spirit are, in the sense just stated, distinct persons. (4.) Attributes being inseparable from substance, the Scriptures, in saying that the Father, Son, and Spirit possess the same attributes, say they are the same in substance; and, if the same in substance, they are equal in power and glory.

    4. Notwithstanding that the Father, Son, and Spirit are the same in substance, and equal in power and glory, it is no less true according to the Scriptures, (a.) That the Father is first, the Son second, and the Spirit third. (b.) The Son is of the Father (evk qeou/, the lo,goj, eivko.n, avpau,gasma, tou/ qeou/);and the Spirit is of the Father and of the Son. (c.)The Father sends the Son, and the Father and Son send the Spirit. (d.)The Father operates through the Son, and the Father and Son operate through the Spirit. The converse of these statements is never found. The Son is never said to send the Father, nor to operate through Him nor is the Spirit ever said to send the Father, or the Son, or to operate through them. The facts contained in this paragraph are summed up in the proposition: In the Holy Trinity there is a subordination of the Persons as to the mode of subsistence and operation. This proposition again adds nothing to the facts themselves.

    5. According to the Scriptures, the Father created the world, the Son created the world, and the Spirit created the world. The Father preserves all things; the Son upholds all things; and the Spirit is the source of all life. These facts are expressed by saying that the persons of the Trinity concur in all acts ad extra. Nevertheless there are some acts which are predominantly referred to the Father, others to the Son, and others to the Spirit. The Father creates, elects, and calls; the Son redeems; and the Spirit sanctifies. And, on the other hand, there are certain acts, or conditions, predicated of one person of the Trinity, which are never predicated of either of the others. Thus, generation belongs exclusively to the Father, filiation to the Son, and procession to he Spirit. This is the form in which the doctrine of the Trinity lies in the Bible. The above statement involves no philosophical element. It is simply an arrangement of the clearly revealed facts bearing on this subject. This is the form in which the doctrine has always entered into the faith of the Church, as a part of its religious convictions and experience.

    To say that this doctrine is incomprehensible, is to say nothing more than must be admitted of any other great truth, whether of revelation or of science. To say that it is impossible that the one divine substance can subsist in three distinct persons, is certainly unreasonable, when, according to that form of philosophy which has been the most widely diffused, and the most persistent, everything that exists is only one of the innumerable forms in which one and the same infinite substance subsists; and when, according to the Realists, who once controlled the thinking world, all men are the individualized forms of the numerically same substance called generic humanity.

To be continued

B. Scriptural Proof of the Doctrine.

    No such doctrine as that of the Trinity can be adequately proved by any citation of Scriptural passages. Its constituent elements are brought into view, some in one place, and some in another. The unity of the Divine Being; the true and equal divinity of the Father, Son, and Spirit; their distinct personality; the relation in which they stand one to the other, and to the Church and the world, are not presented in a doctrinal formula in the Word of God, but the several constituent elements of the doctrine are asserted, or assumed, over and over, from the beginning to the end of the Bible. It is, therefore, by proving these elements separately, that the whole doctrine can be most satisfactorily established. All that is here necessary is, a reference to the general teachings of Scripture on the subject, and to some few passages in which everything essential to the doctrine is included.

The Progressive Character of Divine Revelation.

    1. The progressive character of divine revelation is recognized in relation to all the great doctrines of the Bible. One of the strongest arguments for the divine origin of the Scriptures is the organic relation of its several parts. They comprise more than sixty books written by different men in different ages, and yet they form one whole; not by mere external historical relations, nor in virtue of the general identity of the subjects of which they treat. but by their internal organic development. All that is in a full-grown tree was potentially in the seed. All that we find unfolded in the fulness of the gospel lies in a rudimental form in the earliest books of the Bible. What at first is only obscurely intimated is gradually unfolded in subsequent parts of the sacred volume, until the truth is revealed in its fulness. This is true of the doctrines of redemption; of the person and work of the Messiah, the promised seed of the woman; of the nature and office of the Holy Spirit; and of a future state beyond the grave. And this is specially true of the doctrine of the Trinity. Even in the book of Genesis there are intimations of the doctrine which receive their true interpretation in later revelations. That the names of God are in the plural form; that the personal pronouns are often in the first person plural ("Let us make man in our image"); that the form of benediction is threefold, and other facts of like nature, may be explained in different ways. But when it becomes plain, from the progress of the revelation, that there are three persons in the Godhead, then such forms of expression can hardly fail to be recognized as having their foundation in that great truth.

    2. Much more important, however, is the fact, that not only in Genesis, but also in all the early books of Scripture, we find a distinction made between Jehovah and the angel of Jehovah, who himself is God, to whom all divine titles are given, and divine worship is rendered. As the revelation is unfolded, such distinction becomes more and more manifest. This messenger of God it called the word, the wisdom, the Son of God. His personality and divinity are clearly revealed. He is of old, even from everlasting, the Mighty God, the Adonai, the Lord of David, Jehovah our Righteousness, who was to be born of a virgin, and bear the sins of many.

    3. In like manner, even in the first chapter of Genesis, the Spirit of God is represented as the source of all intelligence, order, and life in the created universe; and in the following books of the Old Testament He is represented as inspiring the prophets, giving wisdom, strength, and goodness to statesmen and warriors, and to the people of God. This Spirit is not an agency, but an agent, who teaches and selects; who can be sinned against and grieved; and who, in the New Testament, is unmistakably revealed as a distinct person. When John the Baptist appeared, we find him speaking of the Holy Spirit as of a person with whom his countrymen were familiar, as an object of divine worship and the giver of saving blessings. Our divine Lord also takes this truth for granted, and promised to send the Spirit, as a Paraclete, to take his place; to instruct, comfort, and strengthen them, whom they were to receive and obey. Thus, without any violent transition, the earliest revelations of this mystery were gradually unfolded, until the Triune God, Father, Son, and Spirit, appears in the New Testament as the universally recognized God of all believers.

Just a few thoughts I found

Joshua

Also here's a few books and authors you can read. The Trinity is one such subject that you will have to cone to a realization through serious study of God's Word. While it is a matter that can be discussed, there is one fact that is clear. Jesus is God. God the Father sent Jesus, His Son on the earth and God became man. Hence the name Immanuel. This translates as "God with us" or if you really want to get into it, do a word study on the word "Logos" in the Greek. I am being summoned to a surprise birthday party i just remembered, i'll post those books for reading a little later on.

Coram Deo,
Joshua

Amen Jemidon!  This topic has been beaten up quite a bit.  But suffice to say that it is an antinomy.  It's truth that God is God alone.  It is also true that the Son is God alone, as is the Spirit.  3 in 1.   While the name "Trinity" has been coined elsewhere, the doctrine is nontheless pertinent.  Well addressed Bro!   :)

I love the illustration above. I will have to remember this one, cause it is great.

i agree to the extent of one god, three manisfestations. i guess my issue is the term trinity...now you do your research, does it secretly attempt to dilute the name of jesus?

Not at all. In fact it exalts the name of Jesus to the most high for Jesus is God not just an ordinary man.

how does the word trinity exalt the name of jesus? i am not being sarcastic, i am truely asking. theres power, healing, deliverence, saving grace, etc...in the NAME of Jesus, not the word trinity....this is the very reason people baptize in the trinity...insted of the name of jesus!

The Trinity shows us the mighty hand of God. He is capable of doing what is not logical to the human mind. The human mind says that one God cannot also be three. It is impossible, so says the human mind, for three separate entities to also be one entity. Yet the Bible tells us that this is true. God can and does do what is not humanly logical.

Pastor Roger,

i totally agree with this statement, except, i believe that jesus shows the mighty hand of god and not the word trinity. many times we defend things that we do not really understand. the trinity is the belief that god exsist in the seperate persons...father, son, and holy ghost. that is what the trinity means. but if we believe that they are one we'd have no problem addressing them in the name of jesus. this is the part that the human mind can not understand.

I'll reply with this: Who can know the mind of God? Simply put, the doctrine of the Trinity as well as the Sovereignty of God is a stumbling block for thousands. They try to wrap their minds around such an enormous concept that it is impossible to do such a thing. Hence why God reveals only enough to show us that He is still  a Sovereign God and that He is actively involved in our lives. Just a few thoughts.

Joshua

i'll receive that jemidon

but if he does provide the peices that are missing to human understanding, should we not accept them? his ways are not our ways and his thoughts are not our thoughts...but when he provides the ways and the thoughts, it is our responsibilty to receive it...otherwise the people will perish for their lack of knowledge.

 Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.(KJV)

Witness the Real, according to my Bible God's Word Jesus is The mighty God. Not a mighty God, but The mighty God. Not my interpretation BUT God's own Word tells us that, It also reads The everlasting Father. that is very simple to understand.

Amen Sister,

Jesus did say He was God:


Joh 8:57  Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
Joh 8:58  Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Joh 8:59  Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

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I looked up the word Trinity in The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, this is what I found:

The term "Trinity" is not a Biblical term, and we are not using Biblical language when we define what is expressed by it as the doctrine that there is one only and true God, but in the unity of the Godhead there are three coeternal and coequal Persons, the same in substance but distinct in subsistence. A doctrine so defined can be spoken of as a Biblical doctrine only on the principle that the sense of Scripture is Scripture. And the definition of a Biblical doctrine in such un-Biblical language can be justified only on the principle that it is better to preserve the truth of Scripture than the words of Scripture. The doctrine of the Trinity lies in Scripture in solution; when it is crystallized from its solvent it does not cease to be Scriptural, but only comes into clearer view. Or, to speak without figure, the doctrine of the Trinity is given to us in Scripture, not in formulated definition, but in fragmentary allusions; when we assemble the disjecta membra into their organic unity, we are not passing from Scripture, but entering more thoroughly into the meaning of Scripture. We may state the doctrine in technical terms, supplied by philosophical reflection; but the doctrine stated is a genuinely Scriptural doctrine.
 
2. Purely a Revealed Doctrine:
 
In point of fact, the doctrine of the Trinity is purely a revealed doctrine. That is to say, it embodies a truth which has never been discovered, and is indiscoverable, by natural reason. With all his searching, man has not been able to find out for himself the deepest things of God. Accordingly, ethnic thought has never attained a Trinitarian conception of God, nor does any ethnic religion present in its representations of the divine being any analogy to the doctrine of the Trinity.
As the doctrine of the Trinity is indiscoverable by reason, so it is incapable of proof from reason. There are no analogies to it in Nature, not even in the spiritual nature of man, who is made in the image of God. In His trinitarian mode of being, God is unique; and, as there is nothing in the universe like Him in this respect, so there is nothing which can help us to comprehend Him. Many attempts have, nevertheless, been made to construct a rational proof of the Trinity of the God head. Among these there are two which are particularly attractive, and have therefore been put forward again and again by speculative thinkers through all the Christian ages. These are derived from the implications, in the one case, of self-consciousness; in the other, of love. Both self-consciousness and love, it is said, demand for their very existence an object over against which the self stands as subject. If we conceive of God as self-conscious and loving, therefore, we cannot help conceiving of Him as embracing in His unity some form of plurality. From this general position both arguments have been elaborated, however, by various thinkers in very varied forms.

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The former of them, for example, is developed by a great 17th-century theologian--Bartholomew Keckermann (1614)--as follows: God is self-conscious thought; and God's thought must have a perfect object, existing eternally before it; this object to be perfect must be itself God; and as God is one, this object which is God must be the God that is one. It is essentially the same argument which is popularized in a famous paragraph (section 73) of Lessing's The Education of the Human Race. Must not God have an absolutely perfect representation of Himself--that is, a representation in which everything that is in Him is found? And would everything that is in God be found in this representation if His necessary reality were not found in it? If everything, everything without exception, that is in God is to be found in this representation, it cannot, therefore, remain a mere empty image, but must be an actual duplication of God. It is obvious that arguments like this prove too much. If God's representation of Himself, to be perfect, must possess the same kind of reality that He Himself possesses, it does not seem easy to deny that His representations of everything else must possess objective reality. And this would be as much as to say that the eternal objective coexistence of all that God can conceive is given in the very idea of God; and that is open pantheism. The logical flaw lies in including in the perfection of a representation qualities which are not proper to representations, however perfect. A perfect representation must, of course, have all the reality proper to a representation; but objective reality is so little proper to a representation that a representation acquiring it would cease to be a representation. This fatal flaw is not transcended, but only covered up, when the argument is compressed, as it is in most of its modern presentations, in effect to the mere assertion that the condition of self-consciousness is a real distinction between the thinking subject and the thought object, which, in God's case, would be between the subject ego and the object ego. Why, however, we should deny to God the power of self-contemplation enjoyed by every finite spirit, save at the cost of the distinct hypostatizing of the contemplant and the contemplated self, it is hard to understand. Nor is it always clear that what we get is a distinct hypostatization rather than a distinct substantializing of the contemplant and contemplated ego: not two persons in the Godhead so much as two Gods. The discovery of the third hypostasis--the Holy Spirit--remains meanwhile, to all these attempts rationally to construct a Trinity in the Divine Being, a standing puzzle which finds only a very artificial solution.

Perhaps the ontological proof of the Trinity is nowhere more attractively put than by Jonathan Edwards. The peculiarity of his presentation of it lies in an attempt to add plausibility to it by a doctrine of the nature of spiritual ideas or ideas of spiritual things, such as thought, love, fear, in general. Ideas of such things, he urges, are just repetitions of them, so that he who has an idea of any act of love, fear, anger or any other act or motion of the mind, simply so far repeats the motion in question; and if the idea be perfect and complete, the original motion of the mind is absolutely reduplicated. Edwards presses this so far that he is ready to contend that if a man could have an absolutely perfect idea of all that was in his mind at any past moment, he would really, to all intents and purposes, be over again what he was at that moment. And if he could perfectly contemplate all that is in his mind at any given moment, as it is and at the same time that it is there in its first and direct existence, he would really be two at that time, he would be twice at once: "The idea he has of himself would be himself again." This now is the case with the Divine Being. "God's idea of Himself is absolutely perfect, and therefore is an express and perfect image of Him, exactly like Him in every respect. .... But that which is the express, perfect image of God and in every respect like HIm is God, to all intents and purposes, because there is nothing wanting: there is nothing in the Deity that renders it the Deity but what has something exactly answering to it in this image, which will therefore also render that the Deity." The Second Person of the Trinity being thus attained, the argument advances. "The Godhead being thus begotten of God's loving (having?) an idea of Himself and showing forth in a distinct Subsistence or Person in that idea, there proceeds a most pure act, and an infinitely holy and sacred energy arises between the Father and the Son in mutually loving and delighting in each other. .... The Deity becomes all act, the divine essence itself flows out and is as it were breathed forth in love and joy. So that the Godhead therein stands forth in yet another manner of Subsistence, and there proceeds the Third Person in the Trinity, the Holy Spirit, namely, the Deity in act, for there is no other act but the act of the will." The inconclusiveness of the reasoning lies on the surface. The mind does not consist in its states, and the repetition of its states would not, therefore, duplicate or triplicate it. If it did, we should have a plurality of Beings, not of Persons in one Being. Neither God's perfect idea of Himself nor His perfect love of Himself reproduces Himself. He differs from His idea and His love of Himself precisely by that which distinguishes His Being from His acts. When it is said, then, that there is nothing in the Deity which renders it the Deity but what has something answering to it in its image of itself, it is enough to respond--except the Deity itself. What is wanting to the image to make it a second Deity is just objective reality.
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Inconclusive as all such reasoning is, however, considered as rational demonstration of the reality of the Trinity, it is very far from possessing no value. It carries home to us in a very suggestive way the superiority of the Trinitarian conception of God to the conception of Him as an abstract monad, and thus brings important rational support to the doctrine of the Trinity, when once that doctrine has been given us by revelation. If it is not quite possible to say that we cannot conceive of God as eternal self-consciousness and eternal love, without conceiving Him as a Trinity, it does seem quite necessary to say that when we conceive Him as a Trinity, new fullness, richness, force are given to our conception of Him as a self-conscious, loving Being, and therefore we conceive Him more adequately than as a monad, and no one who has ever once conceived Him as a Trinity can ever again satisfy himself with a monadistic conception of God. Reason thus not only performs the important negative service to faith in the Trinity, of showing the self-consistency of the doctrine and its consistency with other known truth, but brings this positive rational support to it of discovering in it the only adequate conception of God as self-conscious spirit and living love. Difficult, therefore, as the idea of the Trinity in itself is, it does not come to us as an added burden upon our intelligence; it brings us rather the solution of the deepest and most persistent difficulties in our conception of God as infinite moral Being, and illuminates, enriches and elevates all our thought of God. It has accordingly become a commonplace to say that Christian theism is the only stable theism. That is as much as to say that theism requires the enriching conception of the Trinity to give it a permanent hold upon the human mind--the mind finds it difficult to rest in the idea of an abstract unity for its God; and that the human heart cries out for the living God in whose Being there is that fullness of life for which the conception of the Trinity alone provides.

5. Not Clearly Revealed in the Old Testament:
 
So strongly is it felt in wide circles that a Trinitarian conception is essential to a worthy idea of God, that there is abroad a deep-seated unwillingness to allow that God could ever have made Himself known otherwise than as a Trinity. From this point of view it is inconceivable that the Old Testament revelation should know nothing of the Trinity. Accordingly, I. A. Dorner, for example, reasons thus: "If, however--and this is the faith of universal Christendom--a living idea of God must be thought in some way after a Trinitarian fashion, it must be antecedently probable that traces of the Trinity cannot be lacking in the Old Testament, since its idea of God is a living or historical one." Whether there really exist traces of the idea of the Trinity in the Old Testament, however, is a nice question. Certainly we cannot speak broadly of the revelation of the doctrine of the Trinity in the Old Testament. It is a plain matter of fact that none who have depended on the revelation embodied in the Old Testament alone have ever attained to the doctrine of the Trinity. It is another question, however, whether there may not exist in the pages of the Old Testament turns of expression or records of occurrences in which one already acquainted with the doctrine of the Trinity may fairly see indications of an underlying implication of it. The older writers discovered intimations of the Trinity in such phenomena as the plural form of the divine name 'Elohim, the occasional employment with reference to God of plural pronouns ("Let us make man in our image," Ge 1:26; 3:22; 11:7; Isa 6:8), or of plural verbs (Ge 20:13; 35:7), certain repetitions of the name of God which seem to distinguish between God and God (Ge 19:27; Ps 45:6-7; 110:1; Ho 1:7), threefold liturgical formulas (De 16:4; Nu 6:24,26; Isa 6:3), a certain tendency to hypostatize the conception of Wisdom (Pr 8:1-36), and especially the remarkable phenomena connected with the appearances of the Angel of Yahweh (Ge 16:2-13; 22:11,16; 31:11,13; 48:15-16; Ex 3:2,4-5; Jg 13:20-22). The tendency of more recent authors is to appeal, not so much to specific texts of the Old Testament, as to the very "organism of revelation" in the Old Testament, in which there is perceived an underlying suggestion "that all things owe their existence and persistence to a threefold cause," both with reference to the first creation, and, more plainly, with reference to the second creation. Passages like Ps 33:6; Isa 61:1; 63:9-12; Hag 2:5-6, in which God and His Word and His Spirit are brought together, co-causes of effects, are adduced. A tendency is pointed out to hypostatize the Word of God on the one hand (e.g. Ge 1:3; Ps 33:6; 107:20; 119:87; 147:15-18; Isa 55:11); and, especially in Ezekiel and the later Prophets, the Spirit of God, on the other (e.g. Ge 1:2; Isa 48:16; 63:10; Eze 2:2; 8:3; Zec 7:12). Suggestions--in Isaiah for instance (Zec 7:14; 9:6)--of the Deity of the Messiah are appealed to. And if the occasional occurrence of plural verbs and pronouns referring to God, and the plural form of the name 'Elohim, are not insisted upon as in themselves evidence of a multiplicity in the Godhead, yet a certain weight is lent them as witnesses that "the God of revelation is no abstract unity, but the living, true God, who in the fullness of His life embraces the highest variety" (Bavinck). The upshot of it all is that it is very generally felt that, somehow, in the Old Testament development of the idea of God there is a suggestion that the Deity is not a simple monad, and that thus a preparation is made for the revelation of the Trinity yet to come. It would seem clear that we must recognize in the Old Testament doctrine of the relation of God to His revelation by the creative Word and the Spirit, at least the germ of the distinctions in the Godhead afterward fully made known in the Christian revelation. And we can scarcely stop there. After all is said, in the light of the later revelation, the Trinitarian interpretation remains the most natural one of the phenomena which the older writers frankly interpreted as intimations of the Trinity; especially of those connected with the descriptions of tile Angel of Yahweh, no doubt, but also even of such a form of expression as meets us in the "Let us make man in our image" of Ge 1:26--for surely Ge 1:27: "And God created man in his own image," does not encourage us to take the preceding verse as announcing that man was to be created in the image of the angels. This is not an illegitimate reading of New Testament ideas back into the text of the Old Testament; it is only reading the text of the Old Testament under the illumination of the New Testament revelation. The Old Testament may be likened to a chamber richly furnished but dimly lighted; the introduction of light brings into it nothing which was not in it before; but it brings out into clearer view much of what is in it but was only dimly or even not at all perceived before. The mystery of the Trinity is not revealed in the Old Testament; but the mystery of the Trinity underlies the Old Testament revelation, and here and there almost comes into view. Thus, the Old Testament revelation of God is not corrected by the fuller revelation which follows it, but only perfected, extended and enlarged.
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6. Prepared for in the Old Testament:
 
It is an old saying that what becomes patent in the New Testament was latent in the Old Testament. And it is important that the continuity of the revelation of God contained in the two Testaments should not be overlooked or obscured. If we find some difficulty in perceiving for ourselves, in the Old Testament, definite points of attachment for the revelation of the Trinity, we cannot help perceiving with great clearness in the New Testament abundant evidence that its writers felt no incongruity whatever between their doctrine of the Trinity and the Old Testament conception of God. The New Testament writers certainly were not conscious of being "setters forth of strange gods." To their own apprehension they worshipped and proclaimed just the God of Israel; and they laid no less stress than the Old Testament itself upon His unity (Joh 17:3; 1Co 8:4; 1Ti 2:5). They do not, then, place two new gods by the side of Yahweh, as alike with Him to be served and worshipped; they conceive Yahweh as Himself at once Father, Son and Spirit. In presenting this one Yahweh as Father, Son and Spirit, they do not even betray any lurking feeling that they are making innovations. Without apparent misgiving they take over Old Testament passages and apply them to Father, Son and Spirit indifferently. Obviously they understand themselves, and wish to be understood, as setting forth in the Father, Son and Spirit just the one God that the God of the Old Testament revelation is; and they are as far as possible from recognizing any breach between themselves and the Fathers in presenting their enlarged conception of the Divine Being. This may not amount to saying that they saw the doctrine of the Trinity everywhere taught in the Old Testament. It certainly amounts to saying that they saw the Triune God whom they worshipped in the God of the Old Testament revelation, and felt no incongruity in speaking of their Triune God in the terms of the Old Testament revelation. The God of the Old Testament was their God, and their God was a Trinity, and their sense of the identity of the two was so complete that no question as to it was raised in their minds.
 
7. Presupposed Rather Than Inculcated in the New Testament:
 
The simplicity and assurance with which the New Testament writers speak of God as a Trinity have, however, a further implication. If they betray no sense of novelty in so speaking of Him, this is undoubtedly in part because it was no longer a novelty so to speak of Him. It is clear, in other words, that, as we read the New Testament, we are not witnessing the birth of a new conception of God. What we meet with in its pages is a firmly established conception of God underlying and giving its tone to the whole fabric. It is not in a text here and there that the New Testament bears its testimony to the doctrine of the Trinity. The whole book is Trinitarian to the core; all its teaching is built on the assumption of the Trinity; and its allusions to the Trinity are frequent, cursory, easy and confident. It is with a view to the cursoriness of the allusions to it in the New Testament that it has been remarked that "the doctrine of the Trinity is not so much heard as overheard in the statements of Scripture." It would be more exact to say that it is not so much inculcated as presupposed. The doctrine of the Trinity does not appear in the New Testament in the making, but as already made. It takes its place in its pages, as Gunkel phrases it, with an air almost of complaint, already "in full completeness" (vollig fertig), leaving no trace of its growth. "There is nothing more wonderful in the history of human thought," says Sanday, with his eye on the appearance of the doctrine of the Trinity in the New Testament, "than the silent and imperceptible way in which this doctrine, to us so difficult, took its place without struggle--and without controversy--among accepted Christian truths." The explanation of this remarkable phenomenon is, however, simple. Our New Testament is not a record of the development of the doctrine or of its assimilation. It everywhere presupposes the doctrine as the fixed possession of the Christian community; and the process by which it became the possession of the Christian community lies behind the New Testament.

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8. Revealed in Manifestation of Son and Spirit:
 
We cannot speak of the doctrine of the Trinity, therefore, if we study exactness of speech, as revealed in the New Testament, any more than we can speak of it as revealed in the Old Testament. The Old Testament was written before its revelation; the New Testament after it. The revelation itself was made not in word but in deed. It was made in the incaration of God the Son, and the outpouring of God the Holy Spirit. The relation of the two Testaments to this revelation is in the one case that of preparation for it, and in the other that of product of it. The revelation itself is embodied just in Christ and the Holy Spirit. This is as much as to say that the revelation of the Trinity was incidental to, and the inevitable effect of, the accomplishment of redemption. It was in the coming of the Son of God in the likeness of sinful flesh to offer Himself a sacrifice for sin; and in the coming of the Holy Spirit to convict the world of sin, of righteousness and of judgment, that the Trinity of Persons in the Unity of the Godhead was once for all revealed to men. Those who knew God the Father, who loved them and gave His own Son to die for them; and the Lord Jesus Christ, who loved them and delivered Himself up an offering and sacrifice for them; and the Spirit of Grace, who loved them and dwelt within them a power not themselves, making for righteousness, knew the Triune God and could not think or speak of God otherwise than as triune. The doctrine of the Trinity, in other words, is simply the modification wrought in the conception of the one only God by His complete revelation of Himself in the redemptive process. It necessarily waited, therefore, upon the completion of the redemptive process for its revelation, and its revelation, as necessarily, lay complete in the redemptive process.
 
From this central fact we may understand more fully several circumstances connected with the revelation of the Trinity to which allusion has been made. We may from it understand, for example, why the Trinity was not revealed in the Old Testament. It may carry us a little way to remark, as it has been customary to remark since the time of Gregory of Nazianzus, that it was the task of the Old Testament revelation to fix firmly in the minds and hearts of the people of God the great fundamental truth of the unity of the Godhead; and it would have been dangerous to speak to them of the plurality within this unity until this task had been fully accomplished. The real reason for the delay in the revelation of the Trinity, however, is grounded in the secular development of the redemptive purpose of God: the times were ripe for the revelation of the Trinity in the unity of the Godhead until the fullness of the time had come for God to send forth His Son unto redemption, and His Spirit unto sanctification. The revelation in word must needs wait upon the revelation in fact, to which it brings its necessary explanation, no doubt, but from which also it derives its own entire significance and value. The revelation of a Trinity in the divine unity as a mere abstract truth without relation to manifested fact, and without significance to the development of the kingdom of God, would have been foreign to the whole method of the divine procedure as it lies exposed to us in the pages of Scripture. Here the working-out of the divine purpose supplies the fundamental principle to which all else, even the progressive stages of revelation itself, is subsidiary; and advances in revelation are ever closely connected with the advancing accomplishment of the redemptive purpose. We may understand also, however, from the same central fact, why it is that the doctrine of the Trinity lies in the New Testament rather in the form of allusions than in express teaching, why it is rather everywhere presupposed, coming only here and there into incidental expression, than formally inculcated. It is because the revelation, having been made in the actual occurrences of redemption, was already the common property of all Christian hearts. In speaking and writing to one another, Christians, therefore, rather spoke out of their common Trinitarian consciousness, and reminded one another of their common fund of belief, than instructed one another in what was already the common property of all. We are to look for, and we shall find, in the New Testament allusions to the Trinity, rather evidence of how the Trinity, believed in by all, was conceived by the authoritative teachers of the church, than formal attempts, on their part, by authoritative declarations, to bring the church into the understanding that God is a Trinity.

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9. Implied in the Whole New Testament:
 
The fundamental proof that God is a Trinity is supplied thus by the fundamental revelation of the Trinity in fact: that is to say, in the incarnation of God the Son and the outpouring of God the Holy Spirit. In a word, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are the fundamental proof of the doctrine of the Trinity. This is as much as to say that all the evidence of whatever kind, and from whatever source derived, that Jesus Christ is God manifested in the flesh, and that the Holy Spirit is a Divine Person, is just so much evidence for the doctrine of the Trinity; and that when we go to the New Testament for evidence of the Trinity we are to seek it, not merely in the scattered allusions to the Trinity as such, numerous and instructive as they are, but primarily in the whole mass of evidence which the New Testament provides of the Deity of Christ and the divine personality of the Holy Spirit. When we have said this, we have said in effect that the whole mass of the New Testament is evidence for the Trinity. For the New Testament is saturated with evidence of the Deity of Christ and the divine personality of the Holy Spirit, Precisely what the New Testament is, is the documentation of the religion of the incarnate Son and of the outpoured Spirit, that is to say, of the religion of the Trinity, and what we mean by the doctrine of the Trinity is nothing but the formulation in exact language of the conception of God presupposed in the religion of the incarnate Son and outpoured Spirit. We may analyze this conception and adduce proof for every constituent element of it from the New Testament declarations. We may show that the New Testament everywhere insists on the unity of the Godhead; that it constantly recognizes the Father as God, the Son as God and the Spirit as God; and that it cursorily presents these three to us as distinct Persons. It is not necessary, however, to enlarge here on facts so obvious. We may content ourselves with simply observing that to the New Testament there is but one only living and true God; but that to it Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are each God in the fullest sense of the term; and yet Father, Son and Spirit stand over against each other as I, and Thou, and He. In this composite fact the New Testament gives us the doctrine of the Trinity. For the doctrine of the Trinity is but the statement in wellguarded language of this composite fact. Through out the whole course of the many efforts to formulate the doctrine exactly, which have followed one another during the entire history of the church, indeed, the principle which has ever determined the result has always been determination to do justice in conceiving the relations of God the Father, God the Son and God the Spirit, on the one hand to the unity of God, and, on the other, to the true Deity of the Son and Spirit and their distinct personalities. When we have said these three things, then--that there is but one God, that the Father and the Son and the Spirit is each God, that the Father and the Son and the Spirit is each a distinct person--we have enunciated the doctrine of the Trinity in its completeness.
 
That this doctrine underlies the whole New Testament as its constant presupposition and determines everywhere its forms of expression is the primary fact to be noted. We must not omit explicitly to note, however, that it now and again also, as occasion arises for its incidental enunciation, comes itself to expression in more or less completeness of statement. The passages in which the three Persons of the Trinity are brought together are much more numerous than, perhaps, is generally supposed; but it should be recognized that the formal collocation of the elements of the doctrine naturally is relatively rare in writings which are occasional in their origin and practical rather than doctrinal in their immediate purpose. The three Persons already come into view as Divine Persons in the annunciation of the birth of our Lord: `The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee,' said the angel to Mary, `and the power of the Most High shall overshadow thee: wherefore also the holy thing which is to be born shall be called the Son of God' (Lu 1:35 margin; compare Mt 1:18 ff). Here the Holy Ghost is the active agent in the production of an effect which is also ascribed to the power of the Most High, and the child thus brought into the world is given the great designation of "Son of God." The three Persons are just as clearly brought before us in the account of Matthew (Mt 1:18 ff), though the allusions to them are dispersed through a longer stretch of narrative, in the course of which the Deity of the child is twice intimated (Mt 1:21: `It is He that shall save His people from their sins'; Mt 1:23: `They shall call His name Immanuel; which is, being interpreted, God-with-us') In the baptismal scene which finds record by all the evangelists at the opening of Jesus' ministry (Mt 3:16-17; Mr 1:10-11; Lu 3:21-22; Joh 1:32-34), the three Persons are thrown up to sight in a dramatic picture in which the Deity of each is strongly emphasized. From the open heavens the Spirit descends in visible form, and `a voice came out of the heavens, Thou art my Son, the Beloved, in whom I am well pleased.' Thus care seems to have been taken to make the advent of the Son of God into the world the revelation also of the Triune God, that the minds of men might as smoothly as possible adjust themselves to the preconditions of the divine redemption which was in process of being wrought out.

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10. Conditions the Whole Teaching of Jesus:
 
With this as a starting-point, the teaching of Jesus is conditioned throughout in a Trinitarian way. He has much to say of God His Father, from whom as His Son He is in some true sense distinct, and with whom He is in some equally true sense one. And He has much to say of the Spirit, who represents Him as He represents the Father, and by whom He works as the Father works by Him. It is not merely in the Gospel of John that such representations occur in the teaching of Jesus. In the Synoptics, too, Jesus claims a Sonship to God which is unique (Mt 11:27; 24:36; Mr 13:32; Lu 10:22; in the following passages the title of "Son of God" is attributed to Him and accepted by Him: Mt 4:6; 8:29; 14:33; 27:40,43-44; Mr 3:11; 12:6-8; 15:39; Lu 4:41; 22:70; compare Joh 1:34,49; 9:35; 11:27), and which involves an absolute community between the two in knowledge, say, and power: both Matthew (Joh 11:27) and Luke (Joh 10:22) record His great declaration that He knows the Father and the Father knows Him with perfect mutual knowledge: "No one knoweth the Son, save the Father; neither doth any know the Father, save the Son." In the Synoptics, too, Jesus speaks of employing the Spirit of God Himself for the performance of His works, as if the activities of God were at His disposal: "I by the Spirit of God"--or as Luke has it, "by the finger of God--cast out demons" (Mt 12:28; Lu 11:20; compare the promise of the Spirit in Mr 13:11; Lu 12:12).
 
(There is so much more information to be found on this subject in International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, that for the sake of time, space, and personal enrichment, I urge anyone interested in learning more to read for themselves. This and other Bible Encyclopedias can be found on the internet)
I hope this information has shed some light on this subject, it is a lot to digest just from reading the posts, my suggestion is for anyone interested to prayerfully seek God's Wisdom and do some research and extensive studying.

Amen Sister Maria, A long but very worthy study. If a person takes this post and compares it to the Bible they will indeed see the truth of the Trinity.

Thank you for posting this.

Pator Roger, this study is so deep and there is so much information I didn't put in. I just hope that is will stir some people to really do some research and prove it with God's Word.  ;)

the bible encyclopedia, the bible dictionary, these are helpful tools true enough....but we can not keep leaning to mans understanding to explain gods truths. i just pray that we do not mistakenly dilute or pollute the name of jesus. if the lord wanted trinity in the bible he would have put it there....i know, i know, i'm not deep enough, just love the plain and simple truth.

The Trinity is there, not the word, but it is there just as the article above says.

the father, the son, and the holy spirit are there in the form of jesus just like the bible says. jesus is there, and to kill confusion, god even but the word jesus there!

Hello,
My name is Harry. I am a member of the New Church. My church's doctrine is base on the writings of Emanuel Swedenborg.  Swedenborg's idea of a trinity, is that every person born in this world, pass and present, had or has a soul, body and spirit. When Jesus Christ was in the world centuries ago He also had Soul, Body and Spirit. The soul, body and spirit is the person's trinity. The Trinity in Jesus Christ is Divine, ours is human. In John Jesus saids, "He that hath seen Me hath seen the Father. The Soul, Body and Spirit of Jesus is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Therefore the Divine Trinity is in Him, not in three persons.

Harry :)

Hello SpiritualSon,

Welcome to the forum. I see this is your first post. If I want to be nice and kind, I must tell you the truth, and you won't like it.

You are in a false church, and you are being taught false doctrine that goes completely against the teachings of the Holy Bible. It would not be nice or kind of me to keep the truth from you.

Your church is a cult. It denies the Holy Trinity as a start, but it also denies the Gospel of the Grace of God. It teaches that anyone can be saved by being good enough. Faith in Jesus, His Blood, and the Cross mean little or nothing. Your church is also related to the Oneness type God doctrine that makes Islam and other false religions just as easy to be saved as Christianity. It's also connected to the Universal Salvation doctrine that basically teaches that good people go to heaven and bad people go to hell. If you're good enough, you're saved.

Now, I must be completely blunt and tell you that anything Swendenborg and New Church is a completely false religion. False teaching from this church is not permitted here, and that would include any links to false teachings connected to this church.

On the other side of the coin, I hope and pray that you stay with us. Many of us would love to share the Gospel of the Grace of God with you, and that would include me. I'm not angry with you at all, and my only interest would be sharing the GOOD NEWS with you. The GOOD NEWS is and alway has been that JESUS died on the Cross for our sins. Faith in JESUS and asking HIM to be The LORD over our lives is the only way to be Saved. JESUS was and is HOLY, PERFECT, and without sin. HE was and is the only perfect Sacrifice to save you and I from the curse of sin and death. ONLY HIS Blood on the Cross is powerful enough to forgive our sins, cleanse us, and make us fit to become children of God.

Any righteousness we might have is as filthy rags to God. Anything good we think that we might have done is nothing in the eyes of God, and no amount of what we think is good work will make us worthy for anything except eternal damnation. If you wish to use the Holy Bible as a source for the only TRUTH, JESUS is the ONLY way for Salvation.

Please, I don't mean anything in this post as mean or unkind, just the opposite. If you believe what your church teaches, you are not a Christian and you are not saved. I'm asking you to please not get mad at me for telling you the truth. Further, I'm asking you to read and study the truth with an open mind. Please go to the "Apologetics" area and read/study the "FAQ for Non-Christians". Many of us here will love you enough to tell you the truth about JESUS.

Love In Christ,
Tom

John 10:8-10 NASB  "All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. "I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. "The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.

Hebrews 10:19-23 NASB  Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful;

Romans 8:1-2 NASB  Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

Romans 5:8-9 NASB  But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.  Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

I do not know anything about harry's religion or the teachings of swendenborg. I do know that i am reluctant about any religion that teaches in a name other than jesus.

however i am curious about the statement about the oneness doctrine... and i am just curious, how is that the same as islam and other false religions...please explain that to me.

first i would ask you to explain the oneness doctrine, and than explain the comparison with islam and other false religions.

Hello GKB,

There are many "oneness" type religions and they vary. Islam is one such religion. There is no God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit - just Allah. For Islam, Jesus was just a subordinate messenger, lower than Mohamed. Various false "oneness" type religions deny one or more of what Christians call the Holy Trinity.

In the case of the New Church (Swedenborgian Church), they believe it is just as easy for a practicing Muslim to be saved as a Christian. In fact, everyone is capable of saving themselves. They only accept 4 or 5 books of the New Testament as belonging to the Holy Bible, but they totally accept a third and much larger work written by Emanuel Swedenborg in the 1700s as Holy Bible. According to them, the Second Coming of Christ already happened in 1757 and that Second Coming was for God to reveal the third testament to Emanuel Swedenborg, divinely I might add.

According to the New Church, JESUS CHRIST doesn't save anyone, rather He simply serves as an example of how people can save themselves. The Blood of Jesus and the Cross means nothing. They call Emanuel Swedenborg's massive part of the Holy Bible as the "Writings". It's a very strange and obvious false religion.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 1:16-17 NASB  For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.  For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."

that is a shame that people are buying into this type of crap, i knew that it was proberly off when i heard a mans name mentioned as the teachings.... its terrible.

however i thought the oneness doctrine was the belief that god the father, jesus and the holy spirit were one.

Brother GKB,

There seems to be new religions popping up almost every day now, and many of them focus on men - not God. The Holy Bible speaks of many things like this in the last days of this age of the Gospel of God's Grace. Maybe that time is near and maybe it's not. If so, we will see much more. I know this is one reason why all Christians need to make sure that their family and friends are strong in God's Word.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 111:2 NASB  Great are the works of the LORD; They are studied by all who delight in them.

I like your response. The Bible teaches the Trinity. There is one God.
 The Father is God. 1 Pet.1:2
The Son is God. Heb.1:8
The Holy Spirit is God. Acts 5:3-4
We must seek to know Him as He is in truth. God as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Jn.4:24, 14:6, 17, 15:26, 16:13

Merry Christmas,
bluelake

so let me ask you, are they in some sort of order? for example god=1 son=2 holy ghost=3. it almost seems like we are limiting god to our system so that we can understand. isn't god, son, and holy ghost titles? like pastor, minister, deacon? does it say who it is?

Hello GKB,

The Three are One and ALMIGHTY GOD, so it would seem the reverse is true. Each magnifies and Glorifies the other Two, yet They are ALMIGHTY GOD and ONE. The Holy Bible gives Glory, Honor, and Praise to each member of the Holy Trinity, so all are Magnified. If you deny One, you deny All. If you Praise and Worship One, you Glorify All, ALMIGHTY GOD. It's really just as simple as that.

This really becomes one of the easiest ways to identify a cult. If the group denies one or more of the Holy Trinity, they are lost and in a false religion.

Love in Christ,
Tom

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 NASB  Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass.

i certainly do not deny any part of jesus- father, son, or holy ghost! i simply wonder if father, son, and holy ghost are titles, what would be the name that linked all three together as one? (i am a  son, but i'm not everyones son, how do i identify whose son i am....there is a name!)

Hello GKB,

They are simply three Holy Names in English. There are many other Holy Names in English that refer to God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. AND, there are a lengthy list of Holy Names in Greek and Hebrew that refer to our HOLY AND ALMIGHTY GOD. There is a thread somewhere on the forum that has quite a few of these Holy Names listed. You will be familiar with many of the Holy Names in English, but it is quite possible that you and many others have never heard the Holy Names in Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic, and Latin. I wanted to make a big point that all of the names are HOLY. You will also find information in the Holy Bible that there is at least ONE HOLY NAME FOR ALMIGHTY GOD that we don't know yet. I think that many people today have trouble understanding the significance of the word "HOLY". In ancient times, there were many Jews who were taught and believed that some names of Almighty God were TOO HOLY for a person to even speak. They knew that NO humans were HOLY, so they considered humans too unworthy to even speak the HOLY NAMES OF ALMIGHTY GOD.

I'm thinking about the times under the Law of Moses and the ARK. There were numerous Laws associated with the ARK, including many cleansing rituals to approach or enter portions of the ARK. Breaking these Laws and rituals meant death either at the Hands of GOD or by men. The most strict Laws involved entering the Holy of Holies, and that is where GOD on earth resided during those times. NOW, think about how things have changed since the perfect Sacrifice of JESUS on the Cross for us. Christians really don't understand how AWESOME it is to pray directly to GOD. AND, knowing now that the Holy Spirit of GOD lives in the hearts of Christians is really too AWESOME to consider. Our hearts have taken the place of the ARK, and GOD is residing in us. This is really almost too AWESOME to think about, but it is reality for all Christians.

GKB, I don't consider the HOLY Names of GOD to be titles. They are, in fact, HOLY NAMES. Our names might be Tom and Gary, and those names identify us, but they certainly aren't Holy Names. Our Title might be Mister or some other label designed by men. The HOLY NAMES OF ALMIGHTY GOD are given by ALMIGHTY GOD HIMSELF in HIS WORD, the Holy Bible. It is not possible or proper for man to think that he can assign a name or title for ALMIGHTY GOD.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Galatians 2:19-21 NASB  "For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God. "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. "I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."

not even if that name is jesus?

Hello GKB,

JESUS is simply one of the HOLY NAMES OF GOD that has been translated into English. There are many precious and HOLY NAMES of GOD that give HIM Glory, Honor, and Praise.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 28:7 NASB  The LORD is my strength and my shield; My heart trusts in Him, and I am helped; Therefore my heart exults, And with my song I shall thank Him.

There are many holy names, true enough! but only at the name of jesus shall avery knee bow and every tongue confess! why not at the name of the father? i just believe that jesus covers everything and every name that is holy!

GKB,

 ::)   ???  I'm through trying to explain this most basic and absolute fact/truth to you. Who did JESUS Glorify and Pray to? Do some study of the Holy Bible for yourself, and start with the basics. We have tried to spoon-feed you in the most simple ways. In this most simple case, it really doesn't matter what you think or believe. The only thing that makes any difference is the MOST SIMPLE AND BASIC FACTS OF THE HOLY BIBLE. You can CONFESS THE HOLY TRINITY or reject the HOLY BIBLE. It's really just as simple as that, and that's the end of the story.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 6:10-14 NASB  For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

I RELEASE THIS TO THE LORD, JESUS! BLESS YOU ALL! i am not angry, just a little disappointed

LET MW JUST SAY HAPPY NEW YEARS TO ALL OF YOU BROTHERS AND SISTERS....LETS TAKE A BREAK FROM REBUKING EACH OTHER! ;D

I was reading the responses you have received about your inquirery, The Trinity.
The Bible clearly teaches the Trinity. I hope that you have taken the time to read the scriptures given to you.
It has been my experience dialoging with oneness pentecostals that they aren't open to the word of God.
I will suggest a link for you to read, if you wish. It offers a great deal of information about this issue.

I would baptize using the method that Christ himself gave us. Oneness use Acts 2:38 because they deny the Trinity.

http://letusreason.org/Oneness9.htm

God bless you,
bluelake

GKB,

The explanations have been pretty orthodox but maybe not too satisfying.

One thing to remember is that languages didn't really have anything to describe the revealed nature of God, because there isn't anything else that is like he is, at least not that we know.  So all the examples and such used are "off".  We can use wordly example to try and get closer to understanding but they all fall short of being a perfect example.

Now one thing that came up is the "Oneness" people.  They believe something called modalism.  That would be that God is in one mode (similar to the person of Trinity doctrine) at a time.  So you had God in heaven as the Father, and then He came down as Jesus.  So Jesus was God and the only God while he was here.  Then he went away and came back as the Holy Spirit.  They hold on to the truth that God is one really tightly, but they kind of ignore the places where we see the Father, Son and Spirit at the same time.

One thing I find that confuses people is the use of the term "person" we are used to thinking of separate persons as separate beings.  That really isn't what is in view.  "Person" comes from "persona" the persona is the various masks that an actor would use during a play to be different characters.  Actors would even have conversations with themselves by lifting up the different masks to cover their face.  One play might have a single actor presenting several different persons through the use of different personas.

So if we take that a little way, we see that God is like the actor, and he appears to us in several different persons or personas.  The major difference is that God is all those personas or persons at the same time, see not perfect, can't go too far with the example.

We have to understand God in a way that keeps all that he reveals as truth.  For instance, God is one.  If the Father, Son and Holy Spirit were three gods, then that truth isn't understood correctly.

We end up with one God and three persons.  Each of those person is God, each has all the characteristics of God.  It becomes tempting to think that there is one Supreme God, usually taken as the Father and the Son and Holy Spirit are somehow lesser gods, but that doesn't agree with scripture either.

The Trinity is the only teaching that keeps all that God reveals of Himself as truth.  Otherwise you have to discard something.  It is difficult to understand and that would be why people have and continue to come up with so many other explanations.

One place that I will mention because is confuses a lot of people is the "begotten" issue.  It gets confusing when it is said that Jesus is begotten of the Father because we see places like the first Chapter of Matthew where the verb begat is used of an earthly father and son or daughter type of relationship.

The word translated as begotten is mongenes.  It was thougt to be a conjunction of mono meaning one and a form of the verb gennao meaning to begat or bear.  Well linguistic study has shown that if that were the case, the word should be monogennetos, not monogenes.  The term doesn't mean Jesus was God's only born Son, but has to do with the word genos which means kind or class.  So what it is saying is that Jesus is one-of-a-kind, unique, it's not talking about God the Father producing Jesus in the way a father produces a son.

We can see that in another verse that uses the term monogenes.

Hebrews 11:17 KJV
(17)  By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

If you think about it, Isaac isn't the only son whom Abraham has begat or borne.  What he is is Abraham's one-and-only uniqe son from the promise God gave Abraham.  There is no other like him.  We see new translations giving that understanding more clearly.

Hebrews 11:17 ISV
(17)  By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered Isaac. The man who had received the promises was about to offer his unique son,

People get real irate about it.  Especially since begotten happened to be in John 3:16 which so many of us memorized as children and somehow it is seen as an attack on orthodox understanding.  Actually what I see is a case where the balance of scripture protected from a misunderstanding from that single word, but there are many who are indeed tripped up by that one word because they give it too much weight.  People say if Jesus is begotten then the Father is first and foremost and they go down the road of multiple gods or lesser gods or even that Jesus isn't really God but a god or not a god at all but a mediator between God and man.

I hope that helps you understand.

Marv

We are a trinity.  We are body, spirit, and mind.  But when you see me coming, you say Hi Betty, not hi Betty spirit, Betty mind, etc.
  I have no problem with believing in the Trinity of God.
betty

Question:  Is there any of the world's religions that have God as The Savior Who came in the flesh and died on the cross? The answer is no, only Christ Jesus. And per Hebrews 1 that's why He is called The only Begotten Son, for His Mission as The Savior to come in the flesh to die on the cross for the remission of sins. That Mission as Only Begotten Son is a distinction of God's Role as The Savior. It is a distinction between God The Father and God The Son, even though both are always One.

The non-believing Jews still refuse Jesus of Nazareth as God's Promised Savior, but didn't their fathers know? Yes, they knew, but their hearts being hardened refused to believe it as written in the Old Testament Books. So Who do they believe on? They still await Messiah, having remained only on The Father. And there's the rub.

I Jn 2:23
23   Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
(KJV)

This is why it's important to recogize God as The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit as written. To accept The Son is to recognize The Father also. They cannot be separated. And just becaue the non-believing Jews still deny The Son, but not The Father, it's a dillemma for them, for "Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father" as written.

So in turn, focusing only on Jesus MUST include accepting The Father also, and that should mean grasping the Old Testament prophecy about The Promised Savior and God's Plan of Salvation given through His Holy prophets. We as Christians are not some separate entity from the Old Testament Patriarchs which believed The Gospel as we have (Galatians 3 and Hebrews 11). According to Paul in Galatians 3, all those who have believed on Jesus Christ as The Savior have become the 'children of Abraham'. How's that? It's because The Gospel was preached to Abraham also, and he believed as we have. He just didn't get to live to the time to see Christ's first coming.

1 Cor 10:1-4
1   Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2   And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3   And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4   And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
(KJV)

So just because Jesus hadn't come yet in Moses' day, many since Abraham still knew of The Gospel of Jesus Christ, and those believed as we also. The Salvation Promise to Abraham was given first, even 400 years before the Old Covenant (Gen.14). Although one will not find our Lord's Name 'Jesus' in the Old Testament Books, He was well written of and known of by God's OT prophets (Luke 24:27).

Too often I see ideas like the "Oneness" doctrines and God's Israel vs. Christ's Church being used to create divisions that are not supposed to exist between believers on Christ Jesus. The Old Testament Books and New Testament Books go together, and should be understood together. With focusing only on the New Testament Books which mention our Lord Jesus' Mission in fulfillment, a much fuller understanding of His overall Plan of Salvation will be missed. As an example, the Old Testament Ezekiel 40 through 48 Chapters are still yet future to us, and begin at Jesus' second coming to this earth.

Others here have raised questions about doctrines like the "Oneness" ideas, and rightly so, because for the antichrist to be successful in deceiving the whole world in the future towards worshipping him in place of God, some religious theology must be devised to bring all the world's faiths together. And that is happening now in our time through the 'inter-faith' movement.

dp