ChristiansUnite Forums

     In Vietnam it was "communism". In Iraq it's "terrorism". Neither of these "isms" is or was widely supported by the majority of the people in these countries, most of whom are/were poor and war-weary and just wanted to carry on with a normal, peaceful life.

     In Vietnam, my dad and countless young American kids fought against rice farmers wearing sandals. The VC could not secure combat boots, let alone mount an attack on the US. And the poor farmers could care less what type of government/market ruled in their few big cities- communist, capitalist, whatever- they just wanted US troops out just like they kicked the French out before them who made it obvious they were there for Colonialist and Imperialist goals. American politicians tried to spin it into some sort of fight to "spread freedom". Meanwhile all that was being spread were bombs, Hershey bars, and venereal diseases.

     In Iraq today thousands of American kids have died fighting a country that was already destroyed by Desert Storm. The ensuing embargoes placed on Iraq by the West and the deaths by diseases from radioactivity and other battlefield poisons took it's toll on the nation, leading to thousands if not millions of infant deaths, and deaths by starvation and poisoning. Meanwhile, the dictator, or whatever he was, was being vilified in the US media, as dictators in China and Nigeria were allowed to kill thousands of Christians, but who gives a rip about them. Those countries don't have oil. (Hey Iraq, it's okay, we'll give you Food for Oil.)

     There were no weapons of mass destruction- there are plenty of children dying of radiation poisoning and things like bombs and bullets, thanks to the US military under govt. orders. Meanwhile US contractors swoop into Iraq to make their dough, just like the pirates of old- the BONESMEN who took advantage of the poor, the weak, the war-weary in days gone by.

     So it's clear where I stand on this. I don't know about you guys, but if some foreign country came over here and started killing my friends and family and telling us they were going to start a government that was best for us and "spread freedom", I don't think I'd agree with that.

Then you had better start disagreeing and do it in a hurry because that is exactly what is being tried.

Nightdriving, You need to stop listening to the liberal media, start living in the daylight instead of the Night blindness. I was in Viet Nam and Desert Storm. I have many friends in Iraq and Afghanistan right now. When you say that the people of those countries don't/didn't want us there you have no idea of what you are talking about.

You are sounding like a Michael Moore parrot.

What you said in the other thread is showing to be very true .....  


I am beginning to wonder what your true intent here is.

What is being tried? Who is taking over our Country?  People like the ACLU are taking over our country because the politicians are sending all ignorant and gullible Christians off to wars to fight some poor third worlders, while those still here are addicted to porn and divorcing at the same rates as unbelievers. God once told Israel "my people perish for lack of knowledge".

With all due respect in regards to these matters, don't tell me what to do, or what to listen to, or call me the parrot of some documentary film maker. You can actually refute my statements with facts if I'm wrong, and show me where I'm wrong without insulting me.

Are you going to tell me the majority of people in Vietnam wanted US soldiers there? Then why was there a war? My dad was in Vietnam, if they wanted him there why'd they try to blow his brains out? We're talking black pajama wearing VC here, who ate and slept in villages just like Iraqi "freedom fighters" are sleeping in the very towns occupied by US troops. So many Vietnam vets have protested and stated the obvious, and so many Desert Storm vets have died in the last decade as a result of mysterious illnesses and have not been helped by the VA. The rich oppress the poor, as James said, and war is no different- it's just another means of doing so. Who's dying in Iraq? It's not any rich Iraqi's, that's for sure.  Meanwhile, poor American kids, though completely spoiled by the world's standards, are dying and killing poor Iraquis, women and children alike.

The fact is I apparently know more about politics than most in the church, unfortunately. They are compelled by emotion and experience, but little knowledge or acceptance of reality, just like people in power want it- brainwashed by media. The church is actually going right along with the liberal agenda. You would allow Bonesman and rich elitists to tell us what to believe as far as war is concerned- all they have to do is say that they are Christian but not back it up, and throw around words like "freedom" and "peace" and "justice", things they never learned anything about while partying with strippers and snorting coke in their hidden mansions.

If I do have little knowledge, what is the answer for the things I've stated, the points I've made? Michael Moore may be a misguided liberal, but I know some of the few facts he has stated cannot be dismissed. He is pooh poohed away just because many Christians blindly accept Bush as a Christian, and so are against any call to accountability. All the conservative media does is say "we are spreading freedom" but where are the facts and information? The liberal media is then dismissed just because they are not Christian, when they actually may be stating some facts. So far I haven't seen any facts from either side of the media that would make me think this war is just. And information like Skull and Bones comes straight from Christian sources who have processed it from conspiracy nuts, but there is documented info nonetheless- more trustworthy than any liberal or conservative media opinions.

What is my "true intention"? How dare you even make that statement and make it seem like I have some sort of hidden agenda. This is a debate forum- that's what I'm doing, that's my intention. It's sad that I actually have to debate with fellow christians on the true nature of power and secret societies and worldly wars and oppression. This should have been learned from the bible.

I look to James and see what he says about power. Those of us who serve in the military or law enforcement may serve honourably, we may even KILL honourably in the course of our duty, but it doesn't mean our leaders have honourable agendas. I will pray for them as God commands, but I won't sit by and say killing and oppressing the weak is just, or the agendas my leaders serve are just.

I may not know much about politics, but unfortunately I apparently know more than the average Christian in America, and it all starts with the book of James in the word of God. (James 2:6-7, James 5:1-6.) The very nature of worldy power is corruption, which naturally results in oppression, that's why Satan is the god of this world and has the power to distribute authority as he sees fit, just as he offered that power to Jesus while tempting him. We may have to serve these people in power, but let's be truthful and just as Christians and call evil and oppression what it is.

On a side note, to give an example of the gullibility and lack of discernment in the church, I'd point to Prop 73 which is being voted on in my state of CA on Nov. 8. This Prop states that underage girls will have to notify parents 48 hours before getting an abortion. Ignorant Christians all over this state are pushing to support this Prop thinking it is a stepping stone to ban abortion, thinking it will prevent teens from killing babies if they legally need parental permission. What they are doing is actually condoning abortion! They are saying it is okay to have an abortion if there is parental consent!  Do you see the ridiculousness?! Please read about this subject- I may start another topic on this. The church is in trouble, this ignorance is a perfect example of it.

Excuse me, NightDriving, but Pastor Roger is quite correct. Every one of your socalled 'facts' is parroted by the liberal media: CNN, CBS, ABC, etc. But most, if not all of them, have been falsified.

I don't need to do a major post here, since Pastor Roger summed up my feelings pretty well, however, let me point out that Oil for Food was a UN blunder, NOT merely a US blunder.

When you start calling the mainstream media unreliable you are leading yourself into a tunnel of darkness with less and less light to find your way out.  Certainly the mainstream media has room for significant improvement, but if you suggest an alternative such as Fox News or Rush Limbaugh you have lied to yourself, and deep down you probably know it.

Please, PLEASE show me where I can find info on how these facts have been falsified. How many vets protested Vietnam, how many vets are poor kids and minorites as opposed to rich kids? How many Desert Storm vets died of mysterious illnesses in the last decade without significant help from the VA? How many Iraqis died of starvation since the embargoes in '91, how many died of battlefield chemical poisons? Tell me where the WMD's are? Who lied about that and why? You tell me what I said was FALSE?? Please show me how I am wrong then, I am only dealing with supposed facts and information here- you can change my mind if you can show what the actual truth is. PLEASE ENLIGHTEN ME THEN. It is practically your Biblical duty, otherwise you're just saying "nah, they are lies because it's the liberal media" and you don't give a rip about letting a brother believe supposed lies over here.

If the liberal media is showing nothing but lies, why can't the conservative media show some facts then? Why can't the conservative media even talk about WMD's or Iraqi women and children being killed, or US troops with their arms and legs blown off and getting sick and dying from vaccinations? You think we're setting Iraq free? Why'd we embargo them if we care so much? You tell me then LittlePilgrim and let me know the truth, what is the truth then? Are we killing evil Iraqis and liberating Iraq to have a democracy that becomes as decadent and perverted as ours and Bush is the Bonesman messenger of God?

Whew, it felt great to get that off my chest. Seriously, if things I said are wrong, facts etc.- they need to be corrected then. I do not watch or listen to or have anything to do with the liberal media (though I did see Fahrenheit 9/11). I listen to Christian media (KFAX 1100) and they are silent about this for the most part. The things I mention come from what I've heard over the years that appears documented.

NightDriving or Berean_Standards as I see you have changed your name to.

There were Vets that protested the Viet Nam war. They were the minority though not the majority. As I said I know these things first hand as I was there, I volunteered to go. I was in intelligence and saw much more of what went on behind the scenes than most as well as having seen things on the front line first hand. The majority of those that protested the war were not volunteers but draftees.

As for the VA not doing anything for Desert Storm Vets again you are wrong. I am one of those Vets and the VA is doing everything humanly possible to help me. I have contact with many such Desert Storm Vets daily that are in fact getting all the assistance that can possibly be given to them.

I really love it when people that have not been there try to tell someone that has that they don't know what they are talking about.

I will say it again all your points that you keep making are those of Michael Moore in his farenheit 911 garbage or the liberal media. Michael Moores "facts" are far from facts. They are made up garbage to make him more money.

Amen, brother.

Brother,

Michael Moore has inspired me to do a documentary on the tooth fairy. I'll make more money since my production will contain more facts.  

LOL  .....   What I want to know is who left the door open to the LLL cage?

Wasn't me, Ive been gone all day. ;D  So it must have been one of y'all. ;D

Ha ha ha

Yeah, you'll be laughing at the liberals when they're lunatic kids and anarchist legions are destroying our homes, cars and businesses like they're doing in Paris right now. That's when you'll want guns, my friends. But by then we'll have let the liberals take away our second ammendment rights, so you won't even have guns to protect yourselves with.

Yeah, really, why am I even getting concerned over this? This is a nation that allows abortion and is about to allow gay marriage. How could I expect my fellow Christians to see past their own emotions and experiences to see the truth? For the next Katrina they may as well just hand out 666 stamps instead of debit cards. Everyone will jump in.

Let's all have a party and buy the "Purpose Driven Life" woo hooo!!!!!

This is from the Christian site xxxxxxxx.com. It is awesome:

ADVERTISING LINK REMOVED

It's called "xxx xx x xxxxx" It's why I think the way I do. If it's wrong, if it's Michael Moore "LLL" baloney, go ahead and show me.

I could be wrong, but I'm smelling a type of metal.  

Anyone else?

Now then Berean_Standards, the answer to your question.

War with Iraq, is justified according to biblical standard.

A key responsibility of the civil government is to protect its citizens from attack by wrongdoers. This involves punishing those who break the law. It also involves defending the nation from every external attacker, including nations, other groups of people or dangerous pests and diseases. All these responsibilities are encompassed in the power of the sword Romans 13:1-8. Therefore, pacifism is not a Christian option.

War is only justified for defense Romans 13:1-8. It should not be used to expand a nation's boundaries, or to take control of another nation, or to extract trade advantages. This is a fundamental principle. A nation should never need to establish military domination in another region or nation. This doctrine covers pre-emptive strikes which is when a country attacks an enemy who is about to attack.

The militia should be up made of volunteers. Anyone who is faint-hearted or afraid should not be forced to fight Deut 20:5-9. People who are at a critical stage in their lives should not be forced into military service. For example, men who have recently married, started building a house or started a business should be freed from service, because they would not be focused on the battle.

Only the civil government has authority to declare war. Individuals or companies do not have the authority to commit a nation to war. Any declaration of war must be in accordance with correct legal processes [/b]Deut 20:10[/b]

A Christian government should only declare war if it thinks it has a reasonable chance of success. Jesus said that before a king goes to war, he should sit down and consider whether he can match the army that is coming against him. If not he will send a delegation to ask for terms of peace Luke 14:31-32, even if this involves a loss of freedom. For Christians freedom is not an absolute value. It may be better to lose freedom to govern, than to lose a large number of lives in an unsuccessful defense. In fact, because Jesus has set us free, we cannot lose our freedom.

Forgive enemies once they are defeated. Jesus said, "Forgive them Father for they know not what they do." Stephen said, "Lord, do not charge them with this sin." We should treat enemies as God has treated us for we were enemies of God before coming to Christ and He forgave us. Luke 23:34; Acts 7:60; Colossians 1:21-23

Those who persist in evil and refuse to live at peace are to be firmly dealt with in the Lord. We are not to sit back and do nothing or continually appease those who do evil. Psalm 109 We are not to be naive or pacifistic.

Always keep in mind that earthly wars have spiritual elements. Paul was inspired to write that our primary battle is not against flesh and blood people but against Satan and his minions and we should fight it as such. Ephesians 6:10-18

Resting in the hands, of the Lord.
Bob

Ezekiel 33:8 When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

Yep, I smell it, too.

WOW!!  You sure did go to a lot of trouble to advertise on a forum that doesn't allow advertising. It's too bad that you wasted all that time, but at least it was worth a couple of laughs.

Moderator

To Dreamweaver, thank you for your response, and your defense of the faith. It's good to see someone here can stand by their beliefs with a defense rather than just insult someone with opposing opinions and cast them away, even if they play devil's advocate. Apparently no one else here has a response to the liberals about these issues, or other Christians like myself.

To Pastor Paul, again I respect your military service, but I question your pastoring skills, and I definitely question your ability to win coverts, especially those who might have differing political opinions if you can't engage in a debate with even a fellow believer.

To cris and blackeyedpeas, you insult before you can even debate, how do you win converts to Christ this way? This is why America hates us, not because we are outstanding Christians, but because we can't even defend our beliefs with information and discussion, we snigger in our little safe corner and cast insults.

Also, that was not an advertising link- that was a link to an article. You are obviously too narrow-minded to even read it.

I can't believe you actually removed me from this site. Is this really a Christian site? Isn't this the section for debates? Well when it got hot in the kitchen, I wasn't the one to leave. Good luck winning people for Christ, you would probably make us look bad here in California so you should maybe stick to the Bible belt.

God bless

yep I smell it too.

BEREAN STANDARDS,
 JUDGE NOT THAT YE NOT BE JUDGED

 Lu 6:37 ¶  Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

 Mt 7:1 ¶ Judge not, that ye be not judged.

 1Co 4:3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self

Got the Message??????

OUCH! Boy... I almost said something here, but it appears it is being answered quite well by others. XD

No one removed you from this site, at least not yet, so cool your heels. The link you provided did link to items being offered for sale therfore it constitutes advertisement. Read and understand the forum rules. I strongly suggest before you go any further and stick your foot in your mouth again that you do read the forum rules.

You have also crossed the line on personal attacks. Again read the forum rules. Personal attacks will not be tolerated.

These are not debateable points. This is an official warning and the last one that you will get.

Moderator

The problem here is that so many are brainwashed into thinking that the Republican party is somehow the political party you should align yourself with for Christian values.  Too many are afraid to think for themselves, or believe thinking for themselves may lead them down the wrong path.  Recent events clearly show a corrupt Republican party, void of morals in their politics, that still has the unjustified and unwavering loyalty of too many Christians.  People want to believe there is a light side political party and a dark side political party, while the truth is split between each party and often held by neither or sometimes both.  So you have a bunch of lunatics dancing around like monkeys cheerleading when they hear words like liberal and conservative, Republican and Democrat, without having any interest in learning the facts and becoming educated.

WAY TO GO PASTOR ROGER! AMEN BROTHER! :)

F_C, I am going to ask you the same thing I ask every liberal nutcase I run across. WHERE IS YOUR CONCRETE PROOF? Or have you only the allegations of the leftist media? Hm?

Hi all,

To F.C., I admire your conviction to keep making reasonable arguments when it is clear, that the points you are trying to make aren't even being read.  I think the two posts that immediately follow your comment regarding people's unwillingness to examine each party for what they are, rather than what they are said to be, is a perfect example of the kind of thought that is so indoctrinated here in CU.  Some people flattly refuse to even look at the errors made by the republicans (just as some refuse to look at errors of democrats) and that sort of rabid adhearance to one part saddens me, and it weakens our democracy.  Pastor Roger made that abundantly clear when he refused to comment on the content or validity of your post, prefering instead to demonstrate his own dogmatic politics.  That's not a personal attack Roger, you are more than welcome to your views on the way the nation is run, and I vote republican too.  I just don't think they are either infallable, nor are they a party who looks to God for their direction.  Karl Rove should be proof enough of that.

As far as little pilgrim is concerned, I have to admit, they have organized for themselves a fantastic racket.  If  I mention any problem with the current administration, it will just be countered by the claim that it is only a fabrication of the liberal media.  Man, what a sweet scam.  I applaud you.

Thanks for the discussion though,

Thommy

Thommy,

Thank you so much for enlightening us. Guilty until proven innocent works for liberals only if a conservative is on the receiving end. We should have known that.   ???   ::)  Hint: Nobody is guilty of anything yet except dirty liberal politics. They haven't been found guilty either, but we've decided they are guilty in the same court you used.  WOW!! - Let's go ahead and sentence them too.

On the remote chance that things work like the liberals want, Teddy and the boys are going to sing "Tip-Toe Through The Tulips" and dance in their pink ballet shoes. I'm going to be very sad if you and FC don't believe everything in this paragraph.

You know I don't to align myself with any particular party because God is neither a Democrat, a Republican, a liberal or a conservative. He is God. Jesus came to save all men, as long as they accepted the gift that God has freely given us which is salvation by the Blood of Jesus. At the moment we accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior, we become Christians, we become like our Father. We are no longer part of the world even though we live in the world. DON'T GET ME WRONG I AM A REGISTERED VOTER, AND I VOTE AT EACH ELECTION.What I am trying to say is that we may have 2 or 3 candidates and 2 may be Christians while the other is a liberal pro-abortion and all that type of thing God hates ( I definately won't vote for him), now of those 2 that are Christian 1 may be a democrat and the other a Republican, I don't let a political party get in the way of how God would have me vote! Dem or Rep. I turn to God and pray about it and ask Him which way to vote. So on my registration card it states I don't have a political preferance it is obvious I am going to vote for the man of God, no matter what his party is.
Now some of you may not agree with me but this is my own personal opinion and in the end of it all as it stands right now satan is the god of this world and he manipulates people, but I know Who the Victor is and I know Whose Kingdom will prevail for eternity. So I align myself with the Word of God and my vote is for Him. He then leads me in the path I should follow, and guides me.
I hope nobody takes this personal as I am not trying to step on any toes.

Pastor Roger,

Brother, don't you just love it when a newbie jumps in with both feet in his mouth, calls names, violates several forum rules, offers everyone advice from his position of grossly superior intellect, claims his account was deleted, but deletes his own account (making himself a guest), and states that he wasn't the one who left the hot kitchen.  UM??? - this doesn't quite add up. The only way you can get "Guest" by your name is to delete your own account, and you can't post without an account. So, I would surmise that he took a couple more cheap shots and left after he embarrassed himself thoroughly.  ;D

Reference his offered advice, I've decided to send him a message by carrier pigeon if I want any.  ;D  BUT, I use a North Pole carrier pigeon without any wings, so he's a little bit slow.  ;D

Cris, I didn't forget you. Just consider the source.

Oh, by the way, I have several dozen carrier pigeons at the North Pole if anyone else needs to seek advice from the ultimate wise one. BUT, they are all frozen and wingless. ;D

Love in Christ,
Tom

Psalms 107:8-9 NASB  Let them give thanks to the LORD for His lovingkindness, And for His wonders to the sons of men!  For He has satisfied the thirsty soul, And the hungry soul He has filled with what is good.

Whoa, nothing gets replies like a "war in Iraq" or "Dem's/Rep's" thread lol

Just for the record, I never talk about politics and religion  :-X  ;D

Air, don't get me wrong. I do not consider myself either to be aligned with any particular party. (Of course, I'll only be voting in the congressional/govnatorial races next year for the first time... Still...) It's just that I generally support Republicans because of their stances on the issues. I am Christian first, Conservative-liberatarian second (In other words, I prefer a leader with morals, but like to keep the size of government small as possible), and Republican third. In other words, IF by chance there was a conservative Democrat running (And there are quite a few, despite what most would have you believe) against a moderate republican, I would most likely vote for the democrat. Of course their being a Christian is most important to me, but our Christianity MUST be shown through how we live and where we stand on particular issues. Generally, Conservative and Christian go hand in hand. (Anti-abortion, anti-gay marriage, freedom of religion and freedom of speech... Two things, BTW, of which leftist organizations like ACLU and DEFCON would seek to rid us).
HOWEVER, no matter who is elected, I give them my support as a leader and my prayers, because in my mind they are as much God's chosen leader as much as the people's chosen leader. :)

I have voted Democrat before and if the right person came along I would do so again. Unfortunately at this time that is not possible as all the Democrats I know of align themselves to the things that you spoke of as being against what God stands for. They align themselves to abortion, homosexuality, and the ACLU. It is also unfortunate that there are also some Republicans that are now doing so also. When this happens I refuse to vote for that person also.

Having said that, I'll offer someone elses thoughts who sums it up nicely  ;)

Jack Kinsella - Omega Letter Editor

Following the announcement of Scooter Libby's indictment by a special prosecutor for lying about a crime he evidently did not commit, al-Qaeda's Useful Idiot Squad leapt into action, eager to do its part to help the war effort.


Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid immediately took to the Senate floor and solemnly invoked Senate Rule 21. The invocation of Senate Rule 21 forces the Senate to go into closed session during which all discussions are classified secret.

What is said during Rule 21 sessions is secret, but in his public invocation of the rule, Reid made sure the public heard the parts he wanted them to.

"The Libby indictment provides a window into what this is really all about: How the administration manufactured and manipulated intelligence in order to sell the war in Iraq and attempted to destroy those who dared to challenge its actions."

At the risk of beating a dead horse, Libby was indicted because he gave different versions of his testimony at different times to the grand jury. And his grand jury testimony differed from the account he gave the FBI.

No indictments were handed down for the crime the special prosecutor was investigating in the first place, because no crime actually occurred. It was alleged that revealing the name of Valerie Plame as a CIA employee was the same as exposing a covert agent.

It was determined early on that Plame wasn't a covert agent under the statute. One would think that would be the end of the investigation. If I were being investigated for a burglary and it turned out that no burglary occurred, it would seem logical that the investigation into the burglary would be wrapped up. No crime, no investigation, right?

Instead, the special prosecutor kept calling and recalling witnesses to the non-existent crime, until there was enough confusion to indict somebody for perjury.

And I find it interesting that perjury has once again returned to its rightful place as a serious crime, after its eight-year hiatus as a minor peccadillo that 'everybody does' when it is 'about sex'.

Senator Jay Rockefeller of West Virginia, the ranking Democrat on the Intelligence Committee accused the White House of manipulating the committee's GOP leadership into steering away from the subject of pre-Iraq war intelligence.

"Any time the Intelligence Committee pursued a line of inquiry that brought us close to the role of the White House in all of this, in the use of intelligence prior to the war, our efforts have been thwarted time and time again," he said.

Forget, for a moment, the partisan war and your party allegiances and think like an American. How does that read to both America's enemies and US forces on the battlefield?

To the enemy, it is confirmation that he is fighting for a just cause. To our forces, it raises questions about just what it is they are risking their lives for.

John Kerry emerged from the 'secret session' and posted the details he felt were relevant on his web site. ". . . "the country was misled into this war by a president and an administration who [sic] appear today to have put politics and narrow ideology ahead of sound honest national security policy."

(The only part of the secret session that was evidently 'secret' was any discussion that didn't make the US look bad)

Useful Idiot and Master Disinformationist Dick Durbin of Illinois, (the guy who compared our forces to Nazis, Stalinist thugs and Pol Pot's Khymer Rouge) worried from the well of the Senate about what a loss those former Nazis/Stalinist/Khymer Rouge-looking US forces are to the nation:

"We have lost over 2,000 of our best and bravest. Over 15,000 have been seriously wounded. We are spending more than $6 billion a month with no end in sight. And this Republican-led Senate Intelligence Committee refuses to even ask the hard questions about the misinformation and disinformation given to the American people and the efforts made by the members of this administration to cover it up."

The former 'Nazi torturers' were evidently rehabilitated in Durbin's eyes by being killed or wounded by the enemy, making them even more useful symbols than they were when they were Stalinist 'thugs'.

As Nazis, they were evidence of how evil the administration's war is. As US casualties, they are evidence of how stupid the administration's war is. The fact that these 'symbols' are American kids who were alive once and gave their lives willingly to protect Durbin's right to be a self-serving, duplicitous back-stabber at their expense goes unnoticed back home.

But to the volunteers who stand between Dick Durbin and the terrorists who would kill him as cheerfully as they would George Bush, it sounds more like, 'this is all for nothing.'

(And that sounds a lot different when you are getting ready to go out on a combat mission than it does when you are sitting in your living room watching the news.)

Be that as it may, the invocation of Rule 21 to use a national embarrassment to advance further national embarrassment goes beyond partisan politics and is a overt violation, (in spirit if not in fact), of what the United States Code defines as 'offering aid and comfort to the enemy' under the legal definition of 'treason'.

Title 18, Chapter 115, section 2381 defines treason, legally speaking, as:

"Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States."

Do Harry Reid, John Kerry, Jay Rockefeller and Dick Durbin owe allegiance to the United States? As elected US Senators, one would assume so. Is the United States at war? There are those who argue that this is an illegal war, so, therefore, it isn't a 'real' war. Baloney.

Real Americans are shedding real blood in real combat. That makes this a real war as far as those who are fighting it are concerned. The enemy is the same enemy that drew first blood on September 11.

Only a fool would argue this is a war with Iraq. It WAS a war against a dictatorship friendly to terrorists, including al-Qaeda.

That dictatorship is gone. It is now a war with the terrorists themselves. Because those forces are American, and because the administration represents the entire United States, Harry Reid and his comrades owe allegiance to the US war effort as long as American forces are in harm's way.

Especially since John Kerry, Jay Rockefeller and Harry Reid were among the 29 Democrats who voted on October 11, 2002 in favor of Congressional authorization for the suddenly "illegal" invasion of Iraq.

That is not to say there aren't legitimate gripes about the administration's handling of the war on terror. But raising questions about what the administration is doing wrong would demand some alternative suggestion of how to do it right.

As a political tool, terrorism's usefulness is in using fear to bring about political change that cannot be brought about by popular support. It isn't the terror that brings about change, it is the fear. Terror's victims can't change anything from the grave.

If there is a difference between the methods being used by Harry Reid and his comrades and that of al-Qaeda, it is a difference without much of a distinction.

The goals are the same. Using fear to bring about political change that cannot be brought about by popular support. Terrorists use terror to invoke fear. Reid and his comrades use disinformation.

The result is that many Americans now fear they have been duped into war by an out-of-control administration. As if the 17 UN Resolutions, the invasion of Kuwait, the decade-long air war in the no-fly zone and the former near-unanimous agreement by both sides for regime change in Iraq occurred in a parallel universe.

Or, as if, as is so often-repeated it becomes a truism devoid of fact, 'there were no weapons of mass destruction found in Iraq' -- which of course is not true. US forces have discovered sarin and mustard gas.

Both Charles Duelfur and David Kay's investigations concluded Iraq had "a clandestine network of laboratories and safe houses with equipment that was suitable to continuing its prohibited chemical- and biological-weapons [BW] programs. They found a prison laboratory where we suspect they tested biological weapons on human subjects," said the report.

They found equipment for "uranium-enrichment centrifuges" whose only plausible use was as part of a clandestine nuclear-weapons program. In all these cases, "Iraqi scientists had been told before the war not to declare their activities to the U.N. inspectors," one ISG official said.

One can spin the facts until they are dizzy, but no matter how hard they are spun, when the spinning is over, the facts remain unchanged.

To listen to the Useful Idiots out there, America has more to fear from its own government than it does from al-Qaeda's terrorists. (Useful to the Left's agenda. But even more useful to al-Qaeda's).

It all began with the prophecy that Iraq would be 'George Bush's Vietnam'.

It has been echoed in the halls of power so many times by the likes of Harry Reid, Nancy Pelosi, John Kerry, Jay Rockefeller, Dick Durbin, the Hollywood Useful Idiot Elite, etc., etc. ad nauseum that nobody seems to recall the prophet who first gave it utterance.

It was Osama bin Laden.

Brother Tom,

I noticed it when his posts had a new name but when doing a PM to him should his original name. I didn't see the "guest". I knew from that he had taken himself out then put himself back in and that he was the only one that could do that. We have had others come here that tried the same thing then blamed us for it saying it was because we took them out.

Yep, I love it also, as they can be seen through for who they are quite easily.

Hello airIam2worship,

Sister Maria, I think that many Christians voted much like you do for many years. Things changed pretty dramatically in the last several years, especially with the Democrats making Pro-Abortion part of their official Party Platform. Then there were primaries to look at where many of the top Democratic candidates basically painted Christians as stupid. I might add that involved major, national figures, and they didn't change course until they realized that they needed some Christians to vote for them.

I realize that not all Democrats are alike, but their Party Platform effects all of them. I'm sure that some of them don't like it at all, and many others had no desire to disown Christian voters. What the Democratic Party actually did with their platform and the rhetoric of their best known national figures was to set the stage for something very unique, and it backfired on them. The overall picture as viewed by the majority of the country was simple:  1) Democrats were intellectual secularists heavily financed by far-left liberals and associated with groups like the ACLU; 2) Republicans were poor, dumb Christians out of what they thought mainstream America was.

They still don't understand it, even after losing the majority in almost everything. The average American still wants GOD and morals and has no desire for the things that the Democratic Party has aligned itself with. Again, I realize it is generally the party and does not speak for all of them, but the party is now known generally for being anti-God, anti-Morals, pro-ACLU, pro-Abortion, anti-Family, and most specifically a secular society without GOD. They have most of the money and nearly all of the news media, but they won't be winning back the majority with what they currently stand for. Again, that's not to say that there aren't any good Christian Democrats, but they are making it pretty hard for Christians to vote for Democrats.

Some of the things in their official Party Platform make it obvious they are pandering to big money, Hollywood, far-left liberals, and groups like the ACLU. So, that leaves most of the Christians out. Once they figure out this is still a Christian nation that's moderate to conservative and they change their platform, things will get competitive again. BUT, they don't have the most basic lessons learned yet. Example:  the American people are NOT going to vote YES for same-sex marriage. Any moderate or conservative Democrat already knows these things.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 103:13 NASB  Just as a father has compassion on his children, So the LORD has compassion on those who fear Him.

2T,

I love the way that you "don't talk about politics and religion".

Keep it up, brother.

 ;) ;) ;)

My point exactly, we have to keep in mind we are voting for a person not a party. And we, at least I will only vote for a person who is a God fearing person, who obeys God's laws first and will not give in to such abominations as gay marriges, abortions, etc. etc. that is why we as Christians must be very careful who we vote for and make sure that we have at least some knowledge about these political persons, because our votes will affect our life. I understand that and it is easy to see that there are no Democrats who are willing to stand up for the moral issues that this country was founded on, but if Jesus dosen't come for us first and God decides that He will open doors for a God fearing, Democrat and a Republican that doesn't fear God runs against him I will vote for the man that fears the Lord. That is why I am neither Dem or Rep I vote only for the man that will fear God and loves Him. I just keep praying for God to always provide for us a man who will fear Him and love Him. It would be very sad indeed if we had 2 running and neither one feared God. So to wrap it up I continually pray that God will uproot all evil doers out of Congress, and the Senate and that He will set up honorable men who will serve Him and fear Him. And that He will continue to provide for us a presidential candidate who will put God first. I admire that judge from Alabama who refused to remove the 10 comandments from the courthouse. A man who will put God first and not even care if he loses his job, he know with God he can't go wrong.

Amen air,

I simply get sick when I see those that profess Christianity and then follow in the footsteps of the Devil by supporting a politician that is for those things.

The state of Illinois is called the "Welfare State" by some. It is claimed to be the highest state for people on welfare and social security disability (I don't know that to be a fact). I have seen people that are on one or both that will put their Christian convictions aside and support a Democrat that is pro-abortion, pro-gay marriage, etc. simply because they believe the individual will give them more benefits than the Republican candidate will.

I pray for the Christian political figures that they will learn to fear the Lord and not man's opinion, that they will learn to trust God and to take a stand for God.That they will stand up against the majority in their own party (Democrats), And have no fear of what man may do to them. That they will realize that 'God has not given us a spirit of fear, but a spirit of love, power and a sound mind'. As for the Democrats, yes they thought Christians are stupid, but the way I see it God has proved to them that Christians have the upperhand right now all we have to do is continue to press on, keep fighting any bills that violate God's laws. Let everyone know that Christians are also American citizens and that we will take a stand for moral issues and more importantly for God, I pray ALL Christian register to vote, and then actually go out and do so. I take every opportunity I get to reclaim America back for God. I make sure I write and sign any petitions that are set up and I vote against homosexual marriges, abortion etc. This nation should always be 'one nation under God', I continue to teach my children and grandchildren that some stupid laws may have taken prayer out of schools, but they cannot stop us from praying in our hearts, they may have taken the 10 commandments out of public buildings, but they cannot stop me from having an 11 by 17 inch framed copy of the 10 commandments in my home. And MOST of all they cannot stop me from PRAYING. Prayer changes things, ALWAYS, IT'S A SPIRITUAL LAW! AND THEY CANNOT STOP GOD FROM ACCOMPLISHING HIS PURPOSE, which He set forth from the foundation of the earth. So for the ACLU, the atheists, the liberals, and those who continue to insist on trying to set laws that are against God's purpose I have an announcement to make. JESUS HAS ALREADY WON, HE IS THE KING OF KINGS, THE LORD OF LORDS, AND THE ALPHA AND OMEGA. Those that insist on going against Him are going to the place where they deserve to be.

Hello 2nd Timothy,

I understand and agree with the above statement completely.  ;D  ;D

WOW! - Brother, we've been missing you. It's great to hear from you, and we would love to see your wit and wisdom regularly.

I must confess that I liked your second non-political, non-religious post better (Omega Letter).  ;D  I really wish that I had said something like that. In terms of actual information about this whole dirty non-political, non-religious mess, I think that we've only seen the tip of the iceberg. Further, and I could be wrong, I think there is a BIG reason why President Bush hasn't played his cards yet. I don't think that the Dem's will like it much. I'm not going to talk about details yet because it involves politics and religion.  ;D

In the meantime - KEEP LOOKING UP!

Love In Christ,
Tom

Philippians 3:20-21 NASB  For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ;  who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.

Sister Maria,

I loved your entire post but I had to quote the portion above and add only one thing:


Love In Christ,
Tom

2 Corinthians 3:2-3 NASB  You are our letter, written in our hearts, known and read by all men; being manifested that you are a letter of Christ, cared for by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

And I must add another ....


AMEN!

 Ec 4:12 And if one prevail against him, two shall withstand him; and a threefold cord is not quickly broken.

           
                                  AMEN

I got to add my

Put it this way....How many battles and Wars were fought in the Old Tesament?  How many were told directly from God to begin....How many people did God personally destroy?
God is a just God and we can not even begin to understand why he did the things He did that are questionable....
You still follow God now don't you?
Christians like yourself kill this world because you get caght up in the politics of things....The same politics that killed Jesus Christ....
Worry about your salvation, Support the troops and stay out of politics....Check the log in your eye before you check the speck in your brothers.....
Its so funny that I read about how evil you people think Freemasons are and then here who is a democrat or republican.....Same thing....
One thing you must all be aware of is that this is apart of Gods plan to return....These are the BIRTH PAINS....
You type of Christians better be careful...Politics is not our arena....We ar to pray and protest if necessarry.....Politics=Power, Power= Evil....

Hi storm777,

Welcome to the forum.

I agree with you on your statement in regards to the Freemasons, however I must disagree with your comment of staying out of politics. A politician is in fact a leader and God appointed many Godly men to be leaders. King David was anointed as King by God and he was far from evil.

We all have a place in this world as set forth by God. Some Pastors, some Deacons, some Janitors, some Doctors......

God can use us in any capacity as He so chooses.

Hello Storm777,

Welcome to the forum. I don't know who you are addressing in your post, but you appear to have started out angry.

There is work to do for God in every area of life, including voting and politics. I, for one, will do what I feel led of God to do. If I make everyone happy, especially the world, I'm probably in error and not making God happy. So, check the log in your eye and try to walk as God leads you.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 9:9-10 NASB  The LORD also will be a stronghold for the oppressed, A stronghold in times of trouble;  And those who know Your name will put their trust in You, For You, O LORD, have not forsaken those who seek You.

I never talk about politics and religion  ;)  ;D

Amen and Amen
Thank you BEP you said everything I would have said.