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HATE
Truth Was Born Naked

   On the night of August 23, 2005 I was sitting in my kitchen and the thoughts of life, the world, and the human psyche, were grinding my mind.  I was unable to find the words that I could write down.  Has the world, can the world, and will the world, ever learn how to, not add and multiply, but divide?  A few feet away from where I was sitting my eyes began to climb steps, the steps which led me to my bed.  My night commenced without a dream, without the usual gifted words.  It was just the cold dew that covered my forehead and my face.  I stepped down from my bed and I looked out through the window at the deep dark night, a night which pleased my eyes and my mind.  However, I was still unable to find the words for which I was searching.  Instead, I saw an ostrich, kicking a huge, circular object.  
   Anything that grows, must grow from the roots, and it has two ends, its beginning and its end.  So does HATE, which is not ripe and which did not yet end.  TRUTH was born naked, the same way that we were born naked.  For some reason we are covering our bodies, our truth, with clothes, but we cannot live without the truth for too long.  We must touch our truth, we like to touch our truth, and we have the need to have our truth touched.
   To please our bodies and our minds we remove our clothes, over and over again.  We cannot live without the truth.  Big wide world, you have taken, and you are still taking big steps to reach the truth with your long hands, but I am uncertain, if you can reach the truth with your mind, which has been covered with money and fancy clothes.  TRUTH is old and it was born naked.  It is as beautiful as a naked woman.  World, don’t be ashamed, don’t be shy.  Can you reveal the naked truth to those who are poor and unfortunate not to have ever sampled its taste or seen what truth is.
   Who is LIE and what is HATE?  LIE is also old and it was born before HATE.  LIE and HATE are very old, close friends.  LIE has many categories, but, for different reasons, there is only one HATE.  If there is anyone who is unfamiliar with how LIE looks, picture a needle with a sharp point.  It has an eye behind which it is pulling a piece of thread.  Similarly, LIE is also pulling the knotted roots behind that one eye.  The tips of the roots, which are covered with heavy winter clothes, the numerous lies, must be touched upon.  World, our tips of the roots are extremely dry and thirsty, just like the wilted grass, the green plants and various small and large trees.  They are waiting for some pure raindrops, the same way our roots are waiting for one truth.  World, can we unite and help the next spring to bloom and blossom and continue this, spring after spring.  If we are unable to help, the forest will suffer, and it will not be able to survive without the truth.
   Who is HATE?  HATE is no different than RUST.  HATE IS RUST.  It eats and destroys only what was created by human mind and human hands, but mostly, it destroys what was created by the human mind.  There is not much that can be said or written about HATE.  LIE and HATE have no predators.  They are our creation, a horrible, long lasting, self-destructive disease.  There are only a few steps that can be taken to help this world of ours, steps which originate with truth, love, respect and the education life itself offers.  There are no other powers or words which can help any of us for too long.  There are no other means which can sustain this world.  We must all learn and know the same methods a good farmer needs to know.  He must have the knowledge of how to pull a few weeds on time, before the weeds spread their roots, and before they grow seeds, and so do we.  It is very sad that we are destroying the harvest and the weeds, the innocent children, women and men, at the same time, and with one hand.  In many ways, we are destroying our own freedom and this world.  
   Our world today, may not have the realization how far we are from that forked road, even though nature, God’s creation, has been badly wounded, and despite its suffering, it’s still extending a hand to us as it is crying out, “My children hold my hand.  I will help you, as I have already helped bring you into this world.  I am your teacher, leader and healer, above all other teachers, healers and leaders.  Please follow me and hold my hand.”
   When I look at the bright days and the deep dark nights, I am able to see, with my eyes wide open and shut, a beautiful long road with its bright shadow hanging underneath the one truth.  The road is a long road and it is wide open.  As we continue to walk down this same road, adding and multiplying, not dividing, will continue to take place and exist.  War and disarray, like a pure fertilizer, will help HATE to grow and spread throughout this world like a weed.  It is a road that doesn’t offer us too many surprises, but rather, it is filled with many unpleasant truths.  On this road, you can find a three legged, uneven table.  One of those legs is much longer than the rest, but it doesn’t really matter, because truth, just like the drops of olive oil, will still trickle off the table very smoothly.  Creations, enabled by human power, will be the first to cross the road.  How long is the road?  Philosophy of life can still make the sharp turn.
   Our world has lost someone we will greatly miss, a great teacher, healer and leader, and simply a good human being.  That someone is Pope John Paul the II.  It is a beauty, that what he did for himself he took with him.  What he did for others, he left with us, and it should live on forever.  It is a long road with a bright shadow, which is hanging underneath the one truth.  Pope John Paul the II’s philosophy of life reached its highest peak, of its highest hill that truth can possibly reach.  He could have told us more, but to please one truth, and to please us all, he told us just enough.  How beautiful and how healthy it could be, if our world could unite and exclaim, “Our God.”  What we did for others, should live on forever, and we should be able to tell our children, “Take it!  This beautiful healthy world is yours.”
   Truth was born naked and it is beautiful.  How sad it is, and how sad I am, to sit at my kitchen table and be unable to find the right words.  The word RICH is still unable to express to the word POOR how beautiful it is.  
Author  Radenko Fanuka

Hating can be in accordance with God and He admonishes to hate  that which He hates.

Can you think of any scriptural examples of such?

         That's right ollie.We are to hate the sin,but love the sinners.A lot of the time people hate the sinnner along with the sin,or they like the sin,but hate the sinner.


                        Yours in Yeshua,
                        curious

Leviticus 19:17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.

Proverbs 8:36 But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.

One I think most people forget about.
Romans 5:8 But God shows and clearly proves His [own] love for us by the fact that while we were still sinners, Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One) died for us

Resting in the hands, of Jesus.
Bob

Luke 6:32
If you [merely] love those who love you, what quality of credit and thanks is that to you? For even the [very] sinners love their lovers (those who love them).

Psalm 5:5
Thou (God) hatest all workers of iniquity

Romans 9:13
Esau have I hated

Psalm 11:5
The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth

Proverb 6:16-19
16: These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
   17: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
   18: An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
   19: A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren

Luke 14:26
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple

i was going to reply with that proverb 21st cent....for that part, well done.

we as christians must be very careful, because if we search hard enough we can find scripture to back up whatever view we have. thats why we must beg the lord jesus for wisdom. the bible is accurate in all its points, and it never contradicts itself...but if you don't have wisdom, you'll think that you should be doing one or the other of a thing (love/hate, deal with sinner/stay seperate from sinners, be bold/be humble, etc.) when we really should be doing all things at some point or another....we must have wisdom show us when, where , and how to use what.

Though I have faith as to move mountains, yet do I not have charity (love), I am nothing.
1 Cor 13:2

AMEN GKB!!

It requires a lot of study to really understand many portions of the Holy Bible. One of the biggest problems is taking a Scripture out of context and isolating it, making it to appear to mean something that it doesn't. Another problem involves failure to identify the speaker, the audience, the purpose, and the time. I think that the most common problems usually involve confusion with the following:

1 - Law vs. Grace

2 - Israel vs. the CHURCH which is the BODY OF CHRIST

3 - Before the CROSS vs. after the CROSS

4 - God's Heavenly Kingdom vs. the Millennial Kingdom (1,000 year earthly rule and reign of JESUS CHRIST

5 - Commandments vs. Exhortations for Christian Living

6 - God's Gifts vs. the works of man
______________________

Matthew 22:36-40  NASB  "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?" And He said to him, " 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.' "This is the great and foremost commandment. "The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."

Love In Christ,
Tom

1 Thessalonians 5:8-10 NASB  But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation. For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.

Hello JudgeNot,

Brother, we sure have been missing you, and it's great to see you back on the forum. I am hoping that you are almost settled into your new home. AND, do you have that 10 gallon cowboy hat yet?

I love the portion of Scripture that you quoted, and I want to post a couple of references for that same beautiful Scripture:

Galatians 5:22 NASB  But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

1 John 4:8-11  NASB  The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love. By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him. In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.

Love In Christ,
Tom


Ephesians 3:14-19 NASB  For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name, that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God.

OK, so what's the concensus?  Are we or are we not to hate a person?

Seems to me, an evildoer's father is Satan.  Do we hate Satan?

Are there evil people in the world, or just people committing evil things who aren't evil themselves?  Actually, after just typing that, it doesn't make sense that there aren't evil people.

 

Mat 5:43  Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Mat 5:44  But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mat 5:45  That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

We know that Satan is God's enemy.  Can we find scripture that says God loves Satan?

In the NT we are told to love our enemy.  Now, could it be that not all of our enemies are evil?  They sure seem to be evil, but wonder if they might not be, hence, the admonition to love them.  Just thinking out loud!  Discernment must play a huge part here, I would imagine.

Proverbs 2:12-15 speaks of being delivered from the way of the EVIL MAN.  (There must be evel men around).

1Sam.16:7 says man looks on the outward appearance but God looks at the HEART.

Well, if we're born again, and HAVE the mind of Christ, shouldn't we be able to look at the heart, also?  Could this be where discernment would play a part on whether to hate or not?  It appears that EVIL and ENEMY are not synonomous words.  Here's maybe where the confusion might lay.  So then, we are to love our enemies, and that might not have anything to do with hating an evil person.

hey chris,

we are told to love our enemies, not THE enemy!

Hey GKB,

Read the last sentence of my post!

Grace and peace,
cris

Hello Brothers and Sisters,

I'm just thinking out loud in a very general way. In this age of Grace, I think we are to hate the sin but love the sinner. After all, that is what JESUS did for us. HE loved us enough to die for us while we were still dead in our sins.

It obviously gets more complicated when we think about the devil using people to disrupt, stop, or destroy the work of GOD.

BUT, very generally I think this issue can boil down to hate the sin and love the sinner. What does everyone else think about this?

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 4:7-8 NASB  "BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN, AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED.  "BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT."

2 Peter 3:9 NASB  The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

Colossians 2:2 NASB  that their hearts may be encouraged, having been knit together in love, and attaining to all the wealth that comes from the full assurance of understanding, resulting in a true knowledge of God's mystery, that is, Christ Himself,

Amen Brother Tom,

If we hate the sinner how can we honestly try to witness to them and try to bring them to Christ when our hearts hardened toward them? For that is what happens when a person hates, their hearts are hardened toward that which they hate. This is what happened to Pharoah when Moses was dealing with him. His heart was hardened toward God. He hated God.

Whe we hate sin our hearts becaome hardened toward that sin and we do not want anything to do with it the sin any longer.

We need to have compassion (love) toward those that are mired in sin so that we can attempt to help them and bring them to our Lord and Saviour. By having this compassion for them we are also showing them what true love is.

I thought this was a debate on whether or not we are to hate an evil person.  The bible says there are evil people, so there must be.  That surely isn't being taken out of context.

Forget about talking about loving our enemies.  We all KNOW that Jesus said to love our enemies.

The subject is on hating evil people.  Our actions reveal what is in our heart, and out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks.  Good men bring forth good things; evil men bring forth evil things.

Because of our fallen nature, we have a tremendous potential for evil.............all of us, but salvation is the result of us believing with our heart.  Being saved, we must be quick to confess any sin we've committed.  We must forgive others as Jesus forgave. This is a continual thing we MUST do. He loved us, and gave His life for us.  Isn't this in keeping with repentance?  Are we not bearing GOOD fruit?  How can we do this?  We can only do it by seeking God with our whole heart, continually.

The bible says that not all will be saved.  Evil people are not seeking God, but rather themselves.  Apparently, they aren't children of God, nor are they our brothers and sisters, NOR ARE THEY NECESSARILY THE ENEMIES WE ARE TOLD TO LOVE.  They are just plain, rotten to the core, evil people.  They exist!  Let's discuss their existence and discuss HOW we should hate them.  God hates them.  How can we, being children of God, not hate them also?  If God hates, then we hate.  If God loves, then we love.....................we're supposed to be Godly.  How can we be Godly if we don't hate the evil person as He hates them.

I like to get right into the meat of an issue.  The issue is HATE.  It isn't about loving our enemies.  WE ALL KNOW WE ARE COMMANDED TO LOVE OUR ENEMIES.

Also, we aren't talking about hardening our own heart with the wrong kind of hatred in reference to witnessing to sinners.  We are to bring them into the Kingdom of God.  That's what Jesus told us to do.  We aren't talking about hardening our own hearts with hatred which prevents us from loving, and ministering to others outside the Kingdom of God.  We're talking about hating those whom God hates. There are those who flatly refuse God.  No amount of ministering will save them, because they don't want to be saved.  Their interest is self interest, and self interest only.  Face it, there are these kinds of people walking on the earth.  They're evil, and do the bidding of their father, the father of all lies, Satan.  It's a choice they made.  It's a choice they made by refusing the saving grace that Jesus Christ offered us all. :P







 
   

Cris,

What is the difference between enemies and those that you say we should hate? If a person is evil and refuses the Lord because of that evil is not that person an enemy of ours also? We see in Mat 5:44 where Jesus tells us to love our enemies then in verse 44 He even goes on to talk about them being evil. This is not to say that we are to be friends with them as it is possible to have a love for a person that we do not even know. There is a difference also between being friendly and being friends. If we are good to those that are evil and continue to be evil then we are actually "heaping coals on their head".





Mat 5:43  Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Mat 5:44  But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mat 5:45  That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Mat 5:46  For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Mat 5:47  And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?


Pro 25:21  If thine enemy be hungry, give him bread to eat; and if he be thirsty, give him water to drink:
Pro 25:22  For thou shalt heap coals of fire upon his head, and the LORD shall reward thee.

Should we hate what God hates?


Just in case something happens, this computer started running real slow with my last post.  It's been doing okay, until 10 minutes ago.

I would have to say no, not in all cases as we are told that God hates the unrepentant sinner (all workers of iniquity) yet Jesus tells us to not hate our enemies. And who exactly are our enemies?

I'm glad you said "not in all cases".  We have something "missing" here, and that's what I'm getting at.

You said God hates the unrepentant sinner, yet Jesus tells us not to hate our enemies.  Apparently, from that deduction, the unrepentant sinner is not our enemy.  If that isn't true, then God is contradicting Himself, and God DOES NOT contradict Himself (Jesus and God being One).

 

It is a good point and one worth studying because Satan is also our enemy. Are we to love Satan?

I must admit I never been asked about it before and have never thought of this before to this depth.

I will have to get back on this one.

 

PR,

I agree and it's what I call "study".  Jesus said to seek and knock and keep knocking.  He WILL answer.  I believe that.  I like to go into depth in studying the Word of God.  To me, what's the point in doing otherwise?  What do we REALLY learn by superficial studying?  He knows our heart, and He knows when He can reveal what we ask. I've said many times that we serve an awesome God, and I meant it.

Are we to love Satan, you ask?  My answer is, does God love Satan?  Do we know for sure He hates Satan?  If the answer is affirmative, then we must hate Satan and his cohorts, as does God. Correct?  Yes, Satan is our enemy, and in this case, I don't think we are to love Satan.  There are some missing pieces here in reference to hating and loving.  I hope we can get the answer that God wants us to know, through discussion.

I think this "hate" issue could be a very interesting debate.  Having the correct heart condition, we all may learn something. I really hope more people express their opinion.  People argue in debates; it's the nature of debating, but when it's over, they're still supposed to be friends, and hopefully, have learned something.  We need BEP's head, Bronze's head, (I know he probably isn't feeling up to it, though), air's head (hehe), 2T's head, JN's head, DW's head, (I hope he's doing well), and everyone else here that I haven't mentioned.

Hello Brother/Sister Cris,

:D  I think that I have an answer that will make sense.

First, there is a difference between rebuke and hate.

We were all children of the darkness and evil sinners at one time. Even then, God loved us. JESUS died on the Cross for evil sinnners, even the most evil sinners.

Do any of us have any children that have NEVER done anything evil or sin? NO  Our love for them at the time was probably pretty harsh, involved a rebuke, and maybe even a spanking - BUT we still loved them. We were evil sinners before we accepted JESUS. AND, we still stumble and sin from time to time.

One must look VERY carefully at the wording of some Scriptures in the Bible and even maybe read the Chapter before and the Chapter after, or more, to understand some portions. AND, one must go to the ancient languages to really understand some portions of Scripture.

In many places, the Bible does tell us in so many words to hate sin but love the sinner. The Bible also instructs us not to be unequally yoked with the lost in marriage, etc. BUT, we are to love them and witness to them. You must remember that love is sometimes tough love and involves rebuke, much like you must do to raise your children. Does this make any sense?

There might even be a time when we are right or wrong in thinking we are in the presence of the devil or an agent of the devil. This would be very unusual, but many Christians have felt this, including me. I know that my GOD is mightier than the devil. The only thing I would know to do and have done is command in the Name of JESUS, pray, and do what I felt led to do. Before someone thinks that I'm out of my mind, I did deal with many satan worshiper types in 25 years of police work, and some of them had already done horrible things. So, I'm completely sane. hehehehehe  :D

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 119:90 NASB  Your faithfulness continues throughout all generations; You established the earth, and it stands.

Amen Brother Tom, I'm glad that you came along on this. I was at a loss for words but I do believe that you have it pegged down.

One thing that I have thought of here is that there are different kinds/levels of love and there are different kinds/levels of hate.

We are to love our parents, to love our wife, to love our children, to love our brothers, to love our neighbors, to love our enemies. Yet in one verse we are told to hate our parents. As Cris said there are no contradictions in the Bible because God does contradict himself. In the case of the love your parents and hate your parents I believe what He is telling us is that we are not to love our parents as much as we love Him.

The Strongs Concordance defines the Hebrew word originally used where the word hate is in the OT as enemy, foe, odious, (odious means something that is repulsive).

In the NT strongs defines the original Greek word for hate as   to detest (especially to persecute), or to love less.

I see from this that there are then different kinds or levels of hate.

 Merriam-Webster says:

1 a : intense hostility and aversion usually deriving from fear, anger, or sense of injury b : extreme dislike or antipathy :

I think that most people have a some what different idea as to the meaning of hate. I believe that most of us think of it in the extreme sense of the word. A feeling that consumes us in a cancerous like way.

Hello Pastor Roger,

Brother, this is one of those Scriptures that appears to be a contradiction, but it isn't.

Luke 14:26 KJV  If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Luke 14:26 AMP  If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his [own] father and mother [in the sense of indifference to or relative disregard for them in comparison with his attitude toward God] and [likewise] his wife and children and brothers and sisters--[yes] and even his own life also--he cannot be My disciple.

This would be known as a contrast and comparison, and some would call it an exaggerated contrast and comparison used to make a heavy distinction. The Strong's Number for "hate" in this Scripture is "G3404". I don't remember the font on the forum that accepts Greek, so I'll have to summarize this with just the English:

G3404 - hate  (Strong's Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries)
From a primary word (hatred); to detest (especially to persecute); by extension to love less: - hate (-ful).

In this case, it would be "by extension to love less", but this isn't easy to understand without some digging or an Amplified Bible.

See References:

Matthew 15:4  For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.

Matthew 6:24  No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Matthew 10:37  He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

John 12:25  He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

Romans 9:13  As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Brother, this is a prime example of why some people say that the Holy Bible contradicts itself. One would either have to know that the simple meaning could not be, dig and study for the answer, have an amplified Bible, or have a really good study Bible to understand this portion of Scripture. It's really pretty easy to see why portions of Scripture like this cause a lot of confusion. The only thing I could suggest is for someone to stop, say "can this be?", and start digging for the answers.

Love In Christ,
Tom

John 17:21-23 NASB  that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. "The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me.

Amen Brother Tom, that was the point that I was trying to make on the seeming contradiction. I am really tired tonight and still can't sleep so I don't doubt that I am not getting my point across clearly. Thank you for clearing it up.

Brother Roger,

I understand completely about being real tired and not being able to sleep. I've got that t-shirt and there's not much I can do about it.

;D  What would you think about going over to fix the stove belonging to Cris. I'm laughing about a crazy tv show I watched several times, but I can't remember the name - "Something Tool man". I think that we could re-route some of the electric lines in the neighborhood and get enough electricity to that stove that it would glow in the dark from a block away.

Cris only wants that stove to cook, and I bet we can make it cook. We could make that thing go through an entire self-cleaning cycle in 5 seconds or less. By the time we get through, it ought to cook a grisly bear, fur and all, in less than 5 minutes. It ought to be good to go if we can just get the electricity cost for that stove down to several hundred per month.

(Small Print: I put this here for Cris and also hoped it might be so bad that it would put you to sleep).  :D

Love In Christ,
Tom

Philippians 4:6 NASB  Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God.

I must admit that I find this rather interesting.  I'd like to add a thought or two here if I might...

For one, we know that God hates both sin and the sinner:


We also know that this behavior is one mimicked by David in the Psalms:


We can argue the here to's and why for's, but I think that this is where principle is found.  David was a man after God's own heart.  He hated those that hated God; counted them as his enemies.  Yet, I still see a principle in his wording: he loved God and hated evil.  

As believers we're commanded not to love the world, nor the things that are in the world, yet we are to love our enemies.  It's important here to note that we are commanded to love our enemies.  The world is at enmity with God, and can be our enemy.  Should be our enemy.  We are not to love the world, yet we are to love our enemies.  Is this then a paradox?

Hardly!  It's a matter of perspective I think.  We are strangers in this world.  It's not home, and we're not to make it our home.  It, it's inhabitants, and everything it has to offer we aren't to love.  But it's inhabitants are under a death warrant.  We're to love them by telling them of their sentence, and giving them the opportunity to accept God's pardon.

I honestly think that a believer who loves God with all of his heart will hate the sinner.  God says to love them.  The problem isn't with the hater.  It's with the lover.  Too many of us love this present world, don't we?  The love is in the sharing God's gracious gift in spite of our hate of who, and what they are.  It's interesting how you don't have to command a loving person to love.

But, as I am wont to do, I believe the context in which the passage about loving our enemies was written was speaking of physical enemies; people who've wronged us or hurt us.  Let's be real.  Most of the world hasn't really done anything to us!  Jesus was telling us not to respond in kind, but to love those who hurt us.  

So.  Do I hate sinners?  Personally, I'm not much of a hater.  I tend to rest in the "love your enemies" point.  But there are those that hate God that I'm not very fond of.  Hate?  No.  Dislike passionately?  Yes.  Why?  Because..."this world is not my home, I'm just a passin' through..."

Just a thought... :)

BEP, you're talking about turning that oven into a cremation contraption  ;D

I finally got to sleep for a few hours. My wife found the sledge hammer. (not saying that one had anything to do with the other.  :D  )

I really liked that show. He had some really good ideas.  :-X :-X

Cris' chocolate chip cookies would be done in .0005 milisecs. That sounds like a good idea to me. It could double as a beacon for a "Lighthouse".

 ;D ;D ;D

Amen, Allinall.

Again we are back to defining the exact meaning and depth of both "hate" and "love" as it is used in these verses and just how we are to both hate our enemies and yet we are still to love them. I think that you gave a pretty good description of it.

This is why we are told that we should " love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind."

Notice in the following verses "Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself". It does not say to love our neighbor or ourselves to that same depth. This is understandable as we are to love God more than anything or anyone else. I also believe that we sould love our brothers to a greater depth and in a different manner than our enemies. Jesus showed us this kind of love for our enemies on the cross when he said "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do".

It is the same with hate. I would say that I hate Satan and the things that he does to a greater extent than I do those that refuse the Lord as Saviour. I have a compassion for these people. It tares at my heart because I know what they are doing to themselves but they do not understand what they are doing to themselves.

OK guys, these are some good posts, with good points. :) 8)

I have to take care of some things here on the homefront, so I probably won't be posting for a couple of days.  I might be able to sneak some in though.

As soon as I logged out last night AVG told me it detected another Trojan.  So, instead of going to bed, guess what I did for the next two hours?  Yep, you guessed it.  Maybe that's why I was getting all of those long wait, white pages.  Not having that problem today, so hopefully, I finally got rid of that varmit.  Fingers crossed!

 

Amen Brother!  We talked a bit about this in our bible study Wednesday night.  I kinda puts things into perspective.  God, hates sinners, yet loves them enough to send His Son, a very real Person and God very God - hence, takes it upon Himself to die in our place for our sins.  He gives men this great gift, the opportunity to repent and accept this gift - and they chose foolishness and sin.  So, He gives them up to their own lusts (Romans 1).  Imagine the sorrow with which He do so, since we know He sent Jesus to die for the world and isn't willing that any should perish.  It's a truth: we go to Heaven because of His matchless grace.  We go to Hell because of our foolish choice.  It hurts to think that people willingly do this.  It sheds new light on what Jesus felt when He cried looking a Jerusalem...

I think some words like, perspective, degree, level, help discern just what and who we are to hate.  However, something is still missing in our understanding and interpretation.  I don't know exactly what it is, but it's the POINT in the debate.

Here are some of my thoughts.

I'm reminded of the word, enemy, and yet somehow feel it's misplaced here. If the word "love" was what the debate was about, then yes, it plays a part there.  If we hated our enemies we wouldn't be able to minister the Word of God to them.  So, in this case, I think the word "perspective" plays a part.  David loved God and hated those who hated God, but he loved his enemies.  So, there must be those we are to hate.  It appears there are two separate groups here.  Hmmm?  We are to hate evil and evil people.  Who are these evil people?  That's the question!

I'm reminded of the commandment to honor our father and mother.  And, I'm reminded of what Jesus said when He was teaching a crowd, and someone told Him His mother and brothers and sisters wanted to speak with Him.  In Matt and Luke Jesus said, (He directed this to His disciples) "Who are my mother and brothers and sisters?"  My mother and brothers and sisters are they who hear, and do the will of My Father in heaven."  Jesus didn't leave the crowd to go see His relatives. In this instance, Jesus' honoring His mother must have had a different definition. Keep in mind, Jesus led a sinless life. (This is deep guys). He was showing us who His mother and brothers and sisters really were.  So, we are not "necessarily" to honor our biological mother and father.  If our biological mother and father serve another god, and we honor them, are we not honoring their god, also?  I would think spiritual common sense says we are.  If our biological parents serve God, and we honor them, are we not honoring God?  Yes, I think so.  Much deep thinking and discernment is needed here. If our earthly parents "will not" serve God, then how does one honor that?  One honors character, and in this case, these parents have no godly character.  (Actually, I'm thinking worst case senario.....abusive mentally, emotionally, spiritually, etc.) Don't know why, but this verse just popped into my head, "If that light in you is darkness, how great that darkness.  No one can serve two masters.  Either he will hate the one and love the other or he will hold to one and despise the other."  This is in Matt 6.

I seem to think God's command to honor parents must be discerned...............just remember what Jesus said!

Again, the word "perspective" (thanks allinall) has to be used here.

This is an extremely deep study.  To come to a conclusion of what God wants us to do, relative to hating, it takes many of us with a right heart to search this out.  It's really mind boggling.  Well, it is for me anyway.  Again, I think the word "discernment" is absolutely imperative here.

Matthew 6: 24.  "No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon."

 Luke 14:26.  "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."

John 12:25.  "He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal."

What happened to this thread?

I seem to think HATE isn't necessarily something a person just sets out to do.  For instance, remember Proverbs 13:24, "he who spares the rod spoils the child."  God said if a father didn't discipline his child, then that father actually hated his child. I also think Eph.6:4, "Fathers, don't provoke your children to anger," fits in quite well here.  I don't think that kind of a father gives any thought at all about hating his child. In all probability, this father could be one who lavished material things on his son, calling it "love." One can take the example of a father who is active in a church.  This particular father is one well thought of by the congregation.  When his own child rebels, the congregation feels sorry for the father, not realizing the father never did care for his own son in a Godly way (he spared the rod).  This child was brought up with/in hatred even though it didn't appear so.  What kind of father do you think this son will make?  Will hatred be a part of the succeeding generations?  Yes, it will be.  Can it be changed?  Yes!  Difficult?  Very!  

The bible says (somewhere?), "whoever hated his own flesh?"  It appears some do, albeit not with a conscious deliberation to do so.

I really got a bit off track from the original question about, "are there those (people) we are to hate?"  That question still remains unanswered.  I'm wondering if it isn't too conflicting with the command to love our enemies, therefore becoming too difficult to figure out?