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Who are these 38%?

I'm curious; who still thinks President Bush and the Republicans are doing a good job with the extremely unbalanced level of power they hold . . . leading all three branches of the government? Why do you not think that they're doing awful?

Let's just look at this governments history . . . first major issue where we look to the Federal Govt: September 11th, 2001. Saddam Hussein and the Iraqis brutally attacked . . . wait I mean Osama Bin Laden and Al Qaeda brutally attacked us. We know that bringing this man to justice is a top priority - more than four years later Bin Laden is still at large. We realize that our disaster preparedness could be better; they made some changes - great, change is always good, except when it makes things worse like we saw in the response to Katrina. So shortly after September 11th, the citizens of this great nation align themselves behind the President - giving him the opportunity to lead the country to greatness and accomplish much more than say Clinton did with a divided country and Congress. Of course this unity was squandered since today we're more divided than ever. He misled us into a war in Iraq - spending billions of dollars to destroy a country posing little threat to us and then billions more to try to rebuild and fight off terrorists that this action was effective in growing. Also this and other irresponsible spending habits (unbalanced tax cuts for the wealthy), squandered a budget surplus to put us in unprecedented deficits. More recently he returned to the White House early from one of his many vacations to push for Teri Schiavo to have her feeding tube reinserted against her and her husband's will, but failed to take such quick or strong action to feed the suffering people of New Orleans after an awful disaster that he was warned about. Of course he was warned about several of his other failings before making those poor decisions as well.

One of the few things he hasn't screwed up is developing a group of supporters, apparently 38%, who will defend him with greater fervor than they would the many innocent people of this world who have suffered unnecessarily due to his misjudgments.

Florida_Catholic,

In spite of the liberal loopy left's best efforts to lie, twist and distort, I think that President Bush and the Republicans are doing a wonderful job. Further, I think that the LLL's efforts will lead to many more Republicans in office on the next election.  ;D

The poll I saw said "82% think President Bush is doing an excellent job". So as normal polls are only good for the amount of people doing them. They are useless for an assessment of the entire nations opinion.

You need to give up the LLL droll and start putting your efforts into a more Godly purpose.

If you're calling me a liar, I'm offended and I'd really like for you to speak to each of the exact points in my post - those you think are true and those that you think are false and why you believe differently.

Florida_Catholic,

I'm not calling you anything. If you are labeling yourself, that's your problem. And, I'll answer your points if I wish to, and only then. I have better things to do with my time, so don't hold your breath.

 ???   :D   ::)   ;D   8)

Florida_Catholic, yes I think President Bush is doing a wonderful job. Maybe if the democrats would ever follow through with there promises he would do even better.

Florida_Catholic, The funny thing is, polls can be twisted anyway the poll maker want to twist them. The poll rating I saw, Bush had a 59% Approval. But the fact of the matter is, most poll makers are democrats.

I don't trust polls anyway, cause of the lies they say. What happen when they take a poll of .100 (thats 1/1000) of 1% and 95% of those are democrats. You get a 95% dissaproval rating. The same thing can be said of the Republicans. Now you know why, I don't trust polls. The only thing I trust 100% in, is Jesus!

Resting in the hands, of Jesus.
Bob

Nahum 1:7 The LORD is good, a strong hold in the day of trouble; and he knoweth them that trust in him.

I'm not trying to make a deal about the poll, more about the fact that people are blindly supporting Bush inspite of these catastrophic failures.  However, if you are interested in making an argument against polls of this nature you should study them a little further.  Reputable polls, unlike the one you quoted, do things to eliminate known biases like that.  They'll take polls of a representative cross section of the country, not mostly Democrats or mostly Republicans.  Everyone who has responded has done so by name calling and silly claims that what I posted is not true.  If you continue to get your news from liars who seek to intentionally mislead you for the sake of their own political agenda, of course you'll be ignorant of what's really going on.

FC,

Do approval ratings dictate right vs. wrong or even competence? If so, than Christ was an abysmally poor leader at the time of His crucifixion.

First, the capture or killing of Osama Bin Laden might prove fruitful as a symbolic act of success, but would do little to stop the terrorist machine from chugging along. Bin Laden is simply the most well-known terrorist, but far from being the only leader. His death will simply result in his being replaced with another 'number one.'

Secondly, the recent tragedy caused by Hurrican Katrina has little, if any correlation to 9/11. Disaster preparedness is by its very nature is a virtual oxymoron. In criticizing how the federal government should have responded, it's worth commenting on exactly what you expected them to do.


I question your point about us being more divided then ever. Reliance upon the opinion poll just doesn't match up to what I see, hear and experience every day from those in my community. Maybe that's stricitly geography, but a review of opinion polls shows how horrible they've been at predicting election outcomes where plenty more resources are devoted to the task. Just how credible they are mid-way through a presidency then becomes iffy at best.

And you know, that point about the war in Iraq is just too old to address any more. He no more mis-led us than the Democrats and the UN did in claiming the threat posed by Iraq. The US was in fact the only country willing to follow through on the "threats" levied by the UN for compliance failure. If we'd done nothing and had been wrong, you'd likely be posting today about his horrible leadership in failing to act.


Check the disaster preparedness documents drafted by the City of New Orleans under the section about hurricanes. There you will find all the plans that were never executed to save the city's inhabitants, a plan drafted largely by Democrats with current Democrats in office and responsible for implementing against a disaster which, as you rightly pointed out, they had ample warning of.


Actually I count one of his greatest successes as frustrating the LLL (as BEP has so eloquently termed them) to the point of spouting just the darnedest and goofiest accusations on websites, blogs and the like. Their hatred of him is a testament to his success. The more they whine, the more satisfied I am with his performance.

Cheers!

Excuse me, where did I call you a silly name, or claim what you posted wasn't true. I think you are feeling guilty about something, posting this statement I quoted above.

I can say the same thing about you, as well Florida_Catholic. What I posted is what I found on the net. I'm sorry you don't like the facts. I posted, thats your problem though not mine.

Resting in the hands, of Jesus.
Bob

Romans 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

I think the President and the Republicans only care about rich people.  I think the Democrats only care about rich liberals.  Praise God, because God  cares about all people.

My husband is on a waiting list ( so far 4 months)at the Va for surgery because the President has cut funding to the VA.   We go to a clinic an hour and a half away, because in our town the funding was cut so badly at the Va that my husband is below 250 names on the waiting list. When my husband served our Country, he was told the country would look out for him.  Now that has been forgotten
Our President refuses to raise taxes because it will upset the rich, but instead will delay much needed funds to pay for medication for the elderly.  
Too many people think because someone is Republican that they must be a Christian, but I think we will be surprised when we get to Heaven how many Republicans had abortions secretly and only put on the appearance of being a Christian to get elected.
betty

AMEN
Betty by the way, I'm a poor Republican.

Hi Betty,

While I agree with you that the VA cuts are atrocious I cannot blame it all on President Bush, although I also admit he is partially to blame. Many of those cuts were put it place prior to his entering office. President Bush has put into place more VA spending than President Clinton did. This is not to say that it is enough because I agree it isn't. The VA spending is far from what it should be.

I know this because I am a handicapped Veteran myself with a service connected disability.

If you don't mind my asking, is your husbands condition service connected? Did he retire from the Military? I will understand completely if you do not wish to answer these questions. I am just curious and I do council with many Veterans on this daily.

Hubby had to take an early retirment from working on the railroad because of an on the job injury.  When you take an early retirment there is no health benefits.  So we have no insurance.  I am thankful that he can go to the Va but he is discouraged because he is had these problems for over a year and the doctor says it will get better once they do they surgery.  So it is fustrating the waitinig part.  You being disabled from your service to the Country, is I am sure even more fustrating for you.  I admire you very much for the sacrifice you made for your Country.  I will say a special pray for you.
betty

Betty, Thank you for your prayers.

I understand your frustrations. It is difficult to deal with a health problem with little or no insurance. The VA is even more difficult than most especially if the problem is not service connected.

I have a brother in law that went through the Korean war and has a service connected problem however he has other health problems that are not service connected and it is sometimes difficult for him to get care for those problems. For his heart condition he has had to go on a waiting list and then he must travel about 300 miles away to the nearest facility for treatment.

One thing that helps is that new bill was passed so that a Veteran with service connected disabilitiy must be seen within 30 days of the request for care. If no VA facility is available they must be cared for at a non-VA provider at VA expense.

There have been many complaints about scheduling problems for the VA. As you probably already know, Veterans are placed into categories according to service connected or non connected, per cent of disability, retired or non - retired. Then the scheduling is done according to their category with the higher categories getting priority.

A Veteran that is not getting timely treatment at VA facilities should contact Rep. Steve Buyer, R-Ind who is the chairman of the House Committee on Veterans Affairs. Steve Buyer says changes are already being made, and the scheduling crisis should soon be resolved.

I strongly recommend contacting Steve Buyer. It does help.

Greetings in the manificent name of Jesus!

I don't know where you got your poll % from, but it fails to match any poll that I have checked FC.
Most that I have checked list the approval rate at around
80-85%.

I am not a dedicated political person period, so I will not enter into the Democ. \ Republican debate.

I do however feel that President Bush has been unjustly treated in the New Orleans situation.

There was a chain of command that was responsible for the people of N.O.

1)the mayor of N.O.
2)The state homeland security officer, who was a political appointee of the mayor
3)the govenor of N.O.
4)the national homeland security officer
5)the president

I have seen many fingers pointed at our national leader, who , by the way; ask the mayor and the govenor to evacuate the people 5 days before Katrina struck. The gov. and the mayor felt that there was no need for such "drastic measures"

Three days before Katrina struck Pres. Bush again asked for the people to be evacuated, and offered any assistance that they needed, up to and including use of the national guard.
Once again he was informed that such measures were not needed; yet there were fingers from these same people pointing at the president. I think that there does indeed need to be an investigation, but the subject needs to be pointed in a different direction.

As a closing statement let me remind you that the book of Romans tells us that a person in position of power over a people, such as the president, is there because G-d allows that person to be there. We are supposed to pray for them, not seek faults. We all have faults,including me, and including you. Do you want people to see faults in you, or do you prefer that they point out, and\or observe your good qualities?

respectfully yours in Yeshua:

  ravenloche

OK, I'm not trying to make the case that the poll rating means that Bush is doing poorly.  I'm making the case that he's done so poorly that the poll rating is higher than it ought to be.  However, to get the facts straight, here's a list of reputable polls and where Bush's rating has fallen during his time in office.  They universally say that about 40% approve of the job he's doing . . . significantly less than the numbers you guys quoted.

http://www.pollingreport.com/BushJob.htm

Where did you get your numbers?

Hello Brother Ravenloche,

I quoted your entire post because it was worth it. Our President and others could have stated the hurricane Katrina facts, but they were NICE and didn't. In fact, I wouldn't doubt that President Bush instructed others not to talk about gross incompetence during such a terrible time. But, that didn't prevent the opposition from pointing the finger in the other way.

There were obviously things that could have been done better at the Federal level. A lot of people don't know that the local and state authorities are in charge until they invite the Federal Government in. The President could have been more public and demanding, but that would have been very embarrassing for the local and state governments. So, he was a nice guy, even after being blamed for all kinds of things he had nothing to do with and had no control over. AND, he allowed the local and state officials to keep their dignity while he was being hammered for their incompetence.

Such is politics.

Love in Christ,
Tom

Psalms 34:9-10 NASB  O fear the LORD, you His saints; For to those who fear Him there is no want. The young lions do lack and suffer hunger; But they who seek the LORD shall not be in want of any good thing.

Well if the dummocrats have their way. they will hold Pres. Bush responsible. Even though at the local level, failed to start the evacuation. Most of the dummocrats fail to relize that, the local level has to declare a state of emercemy. Thats the way the indivivual states can keep independce from the US goverment.

I can't spell worth beans tonight. :(
Bob

Nahum 1:7 The LORD is good, a strong hold in the day of trouble; and he knoweth them that trust in him.

Amen Ravenloche.

Brother Tom, that is the what the Military calls a true leader. It is the way in which they train their leaders to be. President Bush has my respect for him all the more.

Bush is spending money at a very fast rate compared to previous Presidents. He has taken the deficit from black to red. The stock market is not what it was. Repossesion of homes is at an all time high. However he publicly acknowledges Christ.

The response of the fedeal government to respond to local disaster rests in the hands of the local governments timely asking for help. The state and city governments of Louisiana failed in this respect.  
The people of Louisiana and New Orleans need to vote these folks out of office..


Clinton's administration paid the National debt off. A task no president, republican or democrat, could accomplish before him since Truman. The stock market was such that many stocks earned a great amount of money for investors.

Before our war in Iraq The Al Qaeda did not have free access to Iraq. Now they do.

President Bush was not quick to respond to 9/11 on 9/11 either. Wasn't he reading to children in a school in Florida at the time with a reaction that kept him reading to the children?

It is unnerving to have such an unqualified nere do well not having an ability or mental capability to take hold and lead, leading America as a worldly leader should/would. However he does acknowledge Christ and calls for public prayer occasionally. He gives testamonial about his rakish days of yore and how he came to Jesus Christ and how it changed him. So we should pray for him as the Bible says we should pray for our leaders.

I believe Bush is basically a good man having come to Christ in later years, but just not the smartest or with the proper smarts it takes to lead a great nation of free people.

Pray for our government.

ollie

It's case and point that you believe that local officials didn't declare a state of emergency and that Bush has been hesitant to blame local officials.  Once again you've fallen prey to this powerful political machine's propaganda.  Governor Blanco actually declared a state of emergency and requested troop assistance on Friday August 26th, well in advance of the hurricane - before it had even been upgraded to a Category 3.  Furthermore, on September 2nd, “Under the command of President Bush’s two senior political advisers, the White House rolled out a plan…to contain the political damage from the administration’s response to Hurricane Katrina.”  Karl Rove and President Bush systematically put into the minds of the public that the local officials were at fault - easy way to shift blame from him and take out some small time Democrats.  Very admirable.

 ??? ??? ??? ???


I love the way people twist things around to take the blame away from the Democrats. After all Democrats never do anything wrong.


 ::) ::) ::) ::)

Thursday, Aug. 25    

    * Tropical Storm Katrina becomes a Category 1 hurricane and hits South Florida, killing about a dozen people and leaving 1.5 million homes without power.

Friday, Aug. 26    

    *
    * Katrina passes into the Gulf of Mexico and aims at Louisiana and Mississippi, becoming a Category 2 hurricane. Louisiana governor Katherine Blanco declares a state of emergency.

Saturday, Aug. 27    

    * Katrina is upgraded to Category 3.
    * At Blanco's request, President Bush declares a federal state of emergency for Louisiana, and gives FEMA authority to provide aid.
    * Mayor Ray Nagin calls for a voluntary evacuation of New Orleans. The head of the National Hurricane Center, Max Mayfield, urges him to make the evacuation mandatory.

Sunday, Aug. 28    

    * Katrina is declared a Category 5 storm, the highest rating. The National Weather Service issues a warning for New Orleans, warning that once the storm hits, "most of the area will be uninhabitable for weeks... perhaps longer."
    * Nagin orders a mandatory evacuation of New Orleans.
    * Traffic out of New Orleans slows drastically, due to increased volume.
    * Buses, trains, and most airlines have stopped service to and from the area.
    * 10,000 residents take refuge in the Superdome, the largest of ten "shelters of last resort."
    * Bush declares a state of emergency for Mississippi and Alabama, and declares Florida a federal disaster area.

Top
Monday, Aug. 29    

    * 6 a.m.: Katrina, now a Category 4 hurricane, makes landfall on the Louisiana coast.
    * 11 a.m.: Katrina makes a second landfall near the Louisiana-Mississippi border as a Category 3 storm.
    * Levees in New Orleans are breached, flooding parts of the city. Power is lost.
    * Holes are ripped in the roof of the Superdome.
    * Dozens are reported dead in Mississippi.
    * Bush declares a major disaster in Alabama, Louisiana, and Mississippi, and declares that "I want the folks there on the Gulf Coast to know... When the storm passes, the federal government has got assets and resources that we'll be deploying to help you."
    * Blanco asks Bush for "everything you've got," without specifying what that means.
    * FEMA director Michael Brown asks Homeland Security secretary Michael Chertoff for 1,000 personnel, giving them two days to arrive, while urging out-of-town rescue departments to stay away unless asked to assist.
    * About 3,500 National Guard troops help New Orleans's 1,500 police officers with rescue operations.
    * Gulf Coast refineries shut down.
    * Terry Ebbert, New Orleans's director of homeland security, says that "Everybody who had a way or wanted to get out of the way of this storm was able to. For some that didn't, it was their last night on this earth."

Tuesday, Aug. 30    

    * Attempts to plug a two-block-wide breach in a levee at the 17th Street Canal fail.
    * 80% of the city is flooded.
    * With a general lack of food and water, and with law enforcement occupied with rescue missions, looting becomes widespread.
    * As New Orleans fills up like a bowl, FEMA coordinator William Lokey says, "I don't want to alarm everybody that, you know, New Orleans is filling up like a bowl. That's just not happening."
    * Over 12,000 people are in the increasingly uninhabitable Superdome. "It’s imperative that we get them out," Blanco says. "The situation is degenerating rapidly."
    * There is no official death toll. Says Nagin, "Rescue workers are not even dealing with dead bodies. They're just pushing them to the side."
    * Chertoff designates Katrina an Incident of National Significance, and gives Brown authority to manage the crisis.
    * Bush ends his vacation early.

Top
Wednesday, Aug. 31    

    * Looting and violence in New Orleans intensifies.
    * In the Superdome, now holding over 20,000 with no working toilets, no air-conditioning, and insufficient food and water, there are reports of deaths and rapes.
    * Additional thousands are stranded in New Orleans, including 3,000 at the Ernest N. Morial Convention Center without any food or drink, as Blanco and Nagin order a total evacuation.
    * Blanco asks Bush for 40,000 federal troops; military assistance had not been specified in her previous requests for aid.
    * The first buses leave the Superdome, carrying passengers to the Astrodome in Houston.
    * New Orleans police abandon search efforts to attempt to control the violence.
    * Chertoff declares that the Department of Homeland Security is "extremely pleased with the response that every element of the federal government, all of our federal partners, have made to this terrible tragedy."

Thursday, Sept. 1    

    * Bush says on Good Morning America that "I don't think anybody anticipated the breach of the levees."
    * In a radio interview, Chertoff dismisses reports of the thousands at the convention center.
    * In a later interview on Nightline, Brown says the federal government learned about the center that day. Ted Koppel asks, "Don't you guys watch television?"
    * State officials prevent the Red Cross from entering New Orleans with food and water, so as not to get in the way of military operations.
    * Nagin lashes out at the federal government's response: "Put a moratorium on press conferences. Don't do another press conference until the resources are in this city.... Don't tell me 40,000 people are coming here. They're not here."
    * 7,400 National Guard troops help evacuate the Superdome.
    * FEMA has now rescued 350 people; the Coast Guard, 2,900.
    * The Department of Defense begins assembling active-duty troops.
    * Bush asks Congress for $10.5 billion in relief funds.

Top
Friday, Sept. 2    

    * The National Guard secures the Convention Center, and brings food and water.
    * Blanco issues an executive order, allowing out-of-state doctors not licensed in Louisiana to provide emergency treatment.
    * Bush flies to Alabama and praises Brown, saying "you're doing a heck of a job."
    * After walking through Biloxi, Miss., Bush calls the damage "worse than imaginable." He grants that "I am satisfied with the response. I am not satisfied with all the results."
    * Bush flies to New Orleans, surveys the damage, and speaks to Blanco and Nagin.
    * Sen. Landrieu, Gov. Blanco, and Mayor Nagin meet with Pres. Bush on Air Force One.
    * In a memorandum to Blanco, Bush proposes that she request that the local police and National Guard be put under federal control, to streamline the chain of command and unify operations.
    * The Coast Guard has rescued 4,000 people in New Orleans.
    * On NBC's Concert for Hurricane Relief fundraiser, singer Kanye West alleges that the slow federal response is due to racism, saying "George Bush doesn't care about black people."

Saturday, Sept. 3    

    * Blanco refuses to give up control of the state's National Guard troops; 12,000 are now on active duty.
    * According to the military, 42,000 people have been evacuated from New Orleans.

Sunday, Sept. 4    

    * The Superdome has been fully evacuated.

Monday, Sept. 5    

    * The Coast Guard claims to have rescued more than 18,000 people.
    * Former presidents George H.W. Bush and Bill Clinton tour the Astrodome in Houston, as part of their fundraising efforts. Barbara Bush, the former president's wife and current president's mother, created a public relations furor when she commented that "so many of the people in the arena here, you know, were underprivileged anyway, so this—this is working very well for them."

Tuesday, Sept. 6    

    * Nagin orders a forced evacuation of New Orleans.

Thursday, Sept. 8    

    * TIME Magazine reports that Brown's resume may have exaggerated his qualifications.

Friday, Sept. 9    

    * Brown is removed from directing Katrina relief efforts, although he remains head of FEMA. He is replaced by Vice Adm. Thad W. Allen, chief of staff of the Coast Guard.

Monday, Sept. 12    

    * Brown resigns as director of FEMA. His temporary replacement is R. David Paulson, the head of FEMA's preparedness division.
    * Water levels in New Orleans drop considerably.

Tuesday, Sept. 13    

    * "To the extent the federal government didn't fully do its job right, I take responsibility," says Bush.


It appears there is plenty of blame to go around with a whole lot of it laying in the hands of the LA Gov.

I can agree with you there.  There certainly is plenty of blame to go around.  I am not trying to make the case that the local officials are bunch of geniuses that did everything they should have.  However, it is clear from even the timeline you put up that the local officials met the standard mentioned earlier "asking for help; state of emergency"  And that just like in the aftermath of September 11th, the different agencies did an awful job of interacting with each other.  These problems have not been fixed, in fact they've been made worse.

I saw that in one city the Canadians actually arrived with aid before our own government!  In another case, numerous volunteers were trying to go into New Orleans to help and they were stopped so that the govt could check out if they were terrorists.  Even the local emergency response folks had to deal with the Feds cutting off their communication lines and confiscating their relief resources.

There certainly is a lot of blame to go around and we need to vote out the incompetent people who set up these awful 'improvements'.

Yes there is enough blame to pass around.

I can see quite a few dummocats being voted out, because of that. And at least one republican, in Lousiana

From The Federalist Patriot:

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Emergency Management Protocol in Natural Disasters -- Individual and Local, State and Federal Government Responsibilities

Individual preparedness is the front line of national preparedness. As the political class debates "who dun what," in an effort to sort out mistakes after Hurricane Katrina (logging as many political points as possible), YOU better take responsibility for yourself and your family's welfare.

Civil Defense efforts since WWII ensured a significant level of preparedness at the local level. But Civil Defense preparedness waned at the end of the Vietnam era (the great malaise), and by the end of the Cold War, local, state and federal government agencies no longer pre-position large emergency-relief inventories.

So, at a time when the nation was becoming more dependent on centralized food, communication and energy distribution networks, particularly in fast-growing urban areas, local, state and federal government ready response inventories dwindled.

Though catastrophic events like Hurricane Andrew and the 9/11 attack on our nation a decade later sounded alarms about our lack of preparedness for such events, efforts to correct those deficiencies have largely focused on central government preparedness rather than preparedness at the local and state level, (local and state agencies in Florida being the exception).

It was for this reason that New Orleans' EMA plan called for all residents seeking shelter in the city to bring three days of provisions with them. They didn't -- most of those residents, unfortunately, expected "the government" to take care of them.

Government agencies, under ideal circumstances, will likely not be able to meet even minimal needs for days or possibly weeks. Depending on the nature of the catastrophe, the government must activate its resources (military primarily), and those of major relief agencies and thousands of contract providers, and surge response and recovery efforts to a level sufficient to meet emergency provision needs. (FederalistPatriot.US posts an excellent resource page "Recommended Action Plan" with all you need to know about emergency preparedness measures for yourself and your family -- link to

http://FederalistPatriot.US/useprpc/.)

Enter Hurricane Katrina

While Hurricane Katrina heavily impact coastal Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama, the greatest number of people displaced by the Hurricane were from New Orleans. Thus, it is worth reviewing the failure of emergency management chain of command for NOLA.

   1. The Mayor
   2. The New Orleans director of Homeland Security (a political      appointee of the Governor who reports to the Governor)
   3. The Governor
   4. Department of Homeland Security
   5. The President

In other words, all responsibility for proactive preparedness and reactive response recovery begins at the local level. If response and recovery fails because of a lack of preparedness, then a crisis can become a catastrophe, as was the case in New Orleans, and every responding agency above the local government is tasked with cleanup.

The chain of command notwithstanding, individual preparedness accounts for why most residents of New Orleans evacuated and survived. A lack of individual preparedness is why some residents did not. The bottom line -- be prepared.

Link: Anatomy of a National Disaster -- The Consequential Timeline of Hurricane Katrina

(My Note:  The blame game continues and it is grossly misdirected. The vast majority of the blame rests on Louisiana officials, first the Mayor of New Orleans and second the Governor of Louisiana. Only the people of Louisiana have the power to replace the officials most responsible in the management of this catastrophe. Most specifically, I would say that the continued party-going attitude and actions of the New Orleans Mayor represented gross incompetence. The failure to issue timely orders, request assistance, and accept offered assistance rests on the Mayor of New Orleans and the Governor of Louisiana. The problems with the Federal response pale in comparison to the local and state response.)

From The Federalist Patriot:

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The Consequential Timeline of Hurricane Katrina - Page 1

Anatomy of a National Disaster -- The Consequential Timeline of Hurricane Katrina

This timeline spans two weeks from 22 August (one week prior to landfall) to 5 September (one week after landfall) -- all times CDT.

(For an understanding of emergency management responsibilities -- who is responsible for what -- read "Emergency Management Protocol in Natural Disasters -- Individual and Local, State and Federal Government Responsibilities")

22 AUGUST -- MONDAY

The National Hurricane Center (NHC) tracks a storm in the Atlantic.

23 AUGUST -- TUESDAY

The NHC classifies a storm in the Caribbean "Bahamas Tropical Depression 12."

24 AUGUST -- WEDNESDAY

The NHC continues to track the storm and issues warnings for South Florida. The storm system is upgraded to Tropical Storm Katrina.

25 AUGUST -- THURSDAY

1600: Katrina officially becomes a Category 1 hurricane (fourth of the season), according to the NHC. 1830: Moving across south Florida, Katrina causes 11 deaths and kills power to more than 1.2 million people. 2300: Despite being over land for more than four hours, Katrina's maximum sustained winds are still being clocked at 75 mph as it moves into the Gulf.

26 AUGUST -- FRIDAY

0500: After weakening briefly to a tropical storm, Katrina regains hurricane status and moves on to the Gulf of Mexico.

1130: The hurricane is upgraded to Category 2, with the storm's feeder bands continuing to pound the lower Florida Keys.

1600: NHC warns that Katrina is expected to reach dangerous Category 4 intensity before making landfall in Mississippi or Louisiana.

2030: In anticipation of a possible landfall, Mississippi Gov. Haley Barbour and Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco declare states of emergency. On Friday night before the storm hit Max Mayfield of the NHC took the unprecedented action of calling NOLA Mayor Ray Nagin and Gov. Blanco personally to plead with them to begin MANDATORY evacuation of New Orleans and they said they'd take it under consideration. This was after the NOAA buoy 240 miles south had recorded 68' waves before it was destroyed. (My Note: This pleading was ignored.)

Local, state, and federal disaster officials meet to discuss FEMA Disaster Declaration No. 1601 that was issued as a result of tropical storm Cindy in July. "Shouldn't we just apply for Katrina money now? It would save time and taxpayers' money," joked Jim Baker, operations superintendent for the East Jefferson Levee District, one of the public agencies in line for a FEMA check.

===========================See Page 2

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The Consequential Timeline of Hurricane Katrina - Page 2

The Mississippi Valley Division of the Army Corps of Engineers activates teams along the Mississippi and Louisiana Gulf Coasts to prepare for a potential response to Hurricane Katrina.

27 AUGUST -- SATURDAY

0500: Katrina is upgraded to Category 3, a major hurricane, with the Gulf Coast in its path.

Nagin calls for a voluntary evacuation of the city. The emergency plans rely on citizens to bring their own 3-day supply of food and water to the Superdome and Convention Center. Current Louisiana Emergency Evacuation guidelines allow use of public school buses. They were used to transport the elderly and those without transportation to the superdome. Highways leading out of New Orleans are filled with bumper-to-bumper traffic. Several major interstates are converted to one-way routes away from the city.

NHC Director Max Mayfield and President Bush call on Mayor Nagin to declare a mandatory evacuation. (My Note: These requests were ignored.)

Governor Blanco requests that President Bush declare a major disaster for the State of Louisiana. President Bush declares a Federal state of emergency in Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama. The emergency declaration provides for federal assistance and funding and assigns to FEMA, by law, the responsibility for coordinating relief efforts. (For an understanding of emergency management responsibilities -- who is responsible for what -- read "Emergency Management Protocol in Natural Disasters -- Individual and Local, State and Federal Government Responsibilities")

1700: Mayor Nagin issues a voluntary evacuation order. Nagin says late Saturday that he is having his legal staff look into whether he can order a mandatory evacuation of the city, a step he's been hesitant to take because of potential liability on the part of the city for closing hotels and other businesses. "Come the first break of light in the morning, you may have the first mandatory evacuation of New Orleans," Nagin said.

Mayor Nagin and Governor Blanco hold a press conference and the Mayor urges residents to take the storm seriously saying to residents of low lying areas, "We want you to take this a little more seriously and start moving -- right now, as a matter of fact," Nagin said he would open the Superdome as a shelter of "last resort" for people with "special needs." If seeking shelter at the Superdome, Nagin said, "No weapons, no large items, and bring small quantities of food for three or four days, to be safe," he said.

During the day, residents of Louisiana's low-lying areas are told they must evacuate; residents in other low-lying areas are urgently advised to do so. President Bush again declares a state of emergency in Louisiana.

"This is not a test, as your governor said earlier today. This is the real thing," said NHC Director Max Mayfield. "The bottom line is this is a worst-case scenario and everybody needs to recognize it," he said.

2300: NHC issues a hurricane warning from Morgan City, Louisiana, to the Alabama-Florida border, an area that includes New Orleans. A warning means that hurricane conditions are expected within the warning area within the next 24 hours. National Hurricane Center warns officials that Katrina is strengthening and will probably make landfall as a Category 4 or 5.

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The Consequential Timeline of Hurricane Katrina - Page 3

28 AUGUST -- SUNDAY

0040: Katrina escalates to Category 4 strength, heading for the Gulf Coast. The last time Mississippi or Louisiana saw landfall from a Category 4 or stronger storm was 1969 with Hurricane Camille.

0700: Hurricane Katrina intensifies to Category 5, the worst and highest category on the Saffir-Simpson scale.

0800: Superdome opens for shelter.

FEMA Director Michael Brown, DHS Secretary Michael Chertoff as well as local and state officials are informed by NHC Director Max Mayfield via electronic briefing that the storm will cause massive damage and flooding -- including levee breaches -- in New Orleans 32 hours before the eye of the storm makes landfall. Mayfield briefs the President later in the day via video conference.

0930: The Mayor's office announces at 9:30 AM that RTA (Regional Transit Authority) busses will pick people up at 12 locations throughout the city and take them to shelters -- including the Superdome. This is in accordance with both the Comprehensive Emergency Management Plan for the city of New Orleans and The State of Louisiana Emergency Operations Plan Supplement 1B, which clearly states that people who cannot be evacuated will be taken to "last resort" shelters such as the Superdome.

1000: As Katrina reaches 175 mph winds, New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin orders mandatory evacuations as the storm seems to beat a direct path to the city. Gov. Kathleen Blanco, standing beside the mayor at a news conference, said President Bush called and personally appealed for a mandatory evacuation for the low-lying city, which is prone to flooding. "We are facing a storm that most of us have long feared," Nagin said. "This is a once in a lifetime event. The city of New Orleans has never seen a hurricane of this magnitude hit it directly."

1100: The city puts its contraflow traffic system in effect so that both sides of major highways will allow for traffic out of the city.

1130: President Bush issues statement about hurricane danger.

During the day, President Bush declares a state of emergency in Mississippi and orders federal assistance. NHS says low-lying areas along the Gulf Coast could expect storm surges of up to 25 feet as the storm, with top sustained winds of 160 mph to hit early the next day.

1500: More than 10,000 people had either made their way into the Superdome or were standing outside. Those with medical problems were shuffled over to one side of the dome. "The people arriving on this side of the building are expected to fend for themselves," said Terry Ebbert, the city's homeland security director. "We have some water." "I'm not worried about what is tolerable or intolerable," he [Ebbert] said. "I'm worried about, whether you are alive on Tuesday." About 150 National Guard soldiers, New Orleans police and civil sheriff's deputies patrol the facility. Some weapons are confiscated.

1800: Louisiana Senators send a joint letter to the President thanking him for his actions and requesting that he visit the storm ravaged area "as soon as practical."

2000: About 26,000 people are taking refuge in the Superdome. To help keep them fed and hydrated, the Louisiana National Guard delivered three truckloads of water and seven truckloads of MREs -- short for "meals ready to eat." That's enough to supply 15,000 people for three days, according to Col. Jay Mayeaux, deputy director of the Department of Homeland Security's Office of Emergency Preparedness.

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The Consequential Timeline of Hurricane Katrina - Page 4

2200: Katrina advisory by the National Hurricane Center has the storm moving slightly to the east of New Orleans and weakening. Louis Armstrong Airport closes.

29 AUGUST -- MONDAY

0400: Hurricane Katrina is downgraded to a strong Category 4 storm. More than 4,000 National Guardsmen are mobilizing in Memphis to help police New Orleans streets.

"Aircraft are positioned from Hammond to the Texas border ready to fly behind the storm to check damage after it passes over New Orleans," said Maj. Gen. Bennett C. Landreneau, head of the Louisiana National Guard. "Search and rescue operations are being coordinated by the Guard with the state Wildlife and Fisheries Department and Coast Guard poised to help search for survivors stranded by the storm. Guardsmen are also deployed at the Jackson Barracks ready to head into the city using high-water vehicles," Landreneau said.

0610: Katrina makes second landfall near Grand Isle, Louisiana as a Category 4 Hurricane, with maximum sustained winds of 145 mph.

0800: NOLA residents show signs of relief after worst of hurricane passes, but waters are rising on the levees. Six to eight feet of water in the Lower Ninth Ward and two hours later, ten feet of water in St. Bernard levee.

1100: Katrina makes another landfall near the Louisiana-Mississippi state line with 125 mph winds. The storm's daylong rampage claims lives and ravages property in Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama, where coastal areas are under several feet of water.

FEMA Director Brown sends a memo to DHS Secretary Chertoff requesting the additional 1,000 FEMA employees engaged in victims assistance (aiding residents in filling out disaster relief forms) and community outreach be dispatched to Louisiana. Brown indicates that the employees have two days to report to LA Homeland Security headquarters.

1300: Two major flood-control levees are breached and the National Weather Service reports "total structural failure" in parts of New Orleans. Many are feared dead in flooded neighborhoods under as much as 20 feet of water.

1400: New Orleans officials publicly confirm 17th Street Canal breach.

1500: New Orleans Homeland Security Director Terry Ebbertt says, "Everybody who had a way or wanted to get out of the way of this storm was able to."

President Bush declares a major disaster for Louisiana, Mississippi, and Alabama. Mississippi Gov. Haley Barbour describes "catastrophic damage" along the coast. More than 1.3 million homes and businesses in Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama were without electricity, according to utility companies. Dozens now dead.

Red Cross issues a statement. Expects largest recovery operation ever: American Red Cross spokesman Victor Howell said 750 to 1,000 Red Cross personnel are now at work on hurricane recovery in Louisiana, and 2,000 more volunteers will be here in the next few days. The Red Cross will bring in three large mobile kitchens to prepare 500,000 meals per day. There are 40 shelters statewide, housing about 32,000 people, "and you're going to have more," Howell said.

"FEMA said give us a list of your needs," said Nagin, referring to the Federal Emergency Management Agency. "And let me tell you, we're giving them a hell of a list."

2200: More than 12 hours after making landfall, one of the most powerful hurricanes to hit the northern Gulf Coast in half a century is downgraded to a tropical storm. Remnants head north toward Tennessee and the Ohio River Valley, spurring harsh storms and tornadoes.

Eighty percent of New Orleans is underwater.

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The Consequential Timeline of Hurricane Katrina - Page 5

30 AUGUST -- TUESDAY

New Orleans is left with no power, no drinking water, dwindling food supplies, widespread looting, fires and steadily rising waters from major levee breaches. Efforts to limit the flooding are unsuccessful and force authorities to try evacuating the thousands of people at city shelters.

Fox News correspondent Major Garrett reports that the American Red Cross was ready to go to the Superdome "on Monday or Tuesday" to assist in the relief of the 25,000 people who had taken refuge there but were prevented by the Louisiana Department of Homeland Security from doing so. According to Garrett, the reason given was because their presence "would keep people from evacuating and encourage others to come into the city." This is confirmed by Red Cross.

Democrats from NOLA to Congress start blame-game -- calling for Congressional inquiry, but in the days that follow, it appears that the greatest share of blame will land at the feet of Democrats in Louisiana -- so Democrats reject Republican offer to establish committee of inquiry.

4,725 LA National Guardsmen deployed. Prisoner evacuation from two jails begins.

Coast Guard and Army helicopters continue rooftop evacuations.

At the Wal-Mart on Tchoupitoulas Street, an initial effort to hand out provisions to stranded citizens quickly disintegrates into mass looting. Authorities at the scene say bedlam erupted after the giveaway was announced over the radio.

City officials say they might open the Ernest N. Morial Convention Center as a temporary refuge to shelter an estimated 50,000 people made homeless by the storm, but do not advise FEMA or LA Homeland Security officials that they plan to use the Center to house evacuees.

FEMA deploys 23 Disaster Medical Assistance Teams from all across the U.S. to staging areas in Alabama, Tennessee, Texas, and Louisiana and is now moving them into impacted areas. Seven Urban Search and Rescue task forces and two Incident Support Teams have been deployed and propositioned in Shreveport, La., and Jackson, Miss., including teams from Florida, Indiana, Ohio, Maryland, Missouri, Tennessee, Texas and Virginia. Three more Urban Search and Rescue teams are in the process of deployment. FEMA is moving supplies and equipment into the hardest hit areas as quickly as possible, especially water, ice, meals, medical supplies, generators, tents and tarps.

The U.S. Department of Transportation (DOT) dispatches more than 390 trucks to deliver millions of meals ready to eat, millions of gallons of water, tarps, millions of pounds of ice, mobile homes, generators, containers of disaster supplies, and forklifts to flood damaged areas. DOT has helicopters and a plane assisting delivery of essential supplies.

The National Guard of the four most heavily impacted states are providing support to civil authorities as well as generator, medical and shelter with approximately 7,500 troops on State Active Duty. The National Guard is augmenting civilian law enforcement capacity; not acting in lieu of it.

Hospitals are being evacuated and rescue operations continue. The Governor made it clear that search and rescue was the highest priority: Blanco said that while search and rescue operations continued that officials were also getting supplies to hospitals and people who sought refuge at the Superdome, which is receiving more residents by the hour. After officials have completed all of their rescue operations, they will begin to assess how to evacuate other people in the city who are in high, dry locations.

Mississippi Gov. Haley Barbour says Katrina inflicted more damage to the state's beach towns than did Hurricane Camille, and its death toll is likely to be higher. In Mobile, Alabama, the storm pushed water from Mobile Bay into downtown, submerging large sections of the city.

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The Consequential Timeline of Hurricane Katrina - Page 6

The U.S. military starts to move ships and helicopters to the region at the request of the Federal Emergency Management Agency. USS Bataan was positioned near New Orleans prior to Katrina making landfall, and begins relief operations.

President Bush establishes "White House Task Force on Hurricane Katrina Response."

DHS Secretary Michael Chertoff activates the National Response Plan and declares Katrina an "incident of national significance": The National Response Plan (NRP) fully mobilizes the resources of the entire federal government to support response and recovery efforts for state and local authorities -- particularly in the event of a catastrophic incident. Secretary Chertoff has declared the devastation caused by Hurricane Katrina an incident of national significance -- the first-ever use of this designation.

2215: Governor Blanco releases a statement calling for the evacuation of the Superdome. She set no timetable for the withdrawal but, "It's a very, very desperate situation," Blanco said. "It's imperative that we get them out. The situation is degenerating rapidly."

Katrina is downgraded to a tropical depression.

31 AUGUST -- WEDNESDAY

President Bush surveys Gulf Coast damage from air as he returns to Washington, and tells ABC "I don't think anybody anticipated the breach of the levees. They did appreciate a serious storm but these levees got breached and as a result, much of New Orleans is flooded and now we're having to deal with it and will."

The entire region is declared a public health emergency amid fears of diseases that could spread because of the contaminated, stagnant water. Evacuations from the Louisiana Superdome to the Houston Astrodome begin. About 20,000 people are expected to be transferred from New Orleans to Houston. When asked about the number of dead, New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin replies, "Minimum, hundreds. Most likely, thousands."

First responders are kept out of New Orleans as gangs of looters shoot at them. Jeff Winn of the New Orleans police SWAT team says, "We're having some pretty intense gun battles breaking out around the city. Armed gangs of eight to 15 young men are riding around in pickup trucks looting and raping." Some 600 of New Orleans 1,600 police officers fail to report for duty.

1000: Governor Blanco makes the request for President Bush to send Federal troops to help with evacuations and rescues. They could not be deployed before as the constitution requires that the Governor make a specific request to have federal troops deployed in a state.

Governor Blanco calls for a total evacuation of the city of New Orleans, saying, "We've sent buses in. We will be either loading them by boat, helicopter, anything that is necessary." Blanco says she wanted the Superdome -- which had become a shelter of last resort for thousands -- evacuated within two days, along with other gathering points for storm refugees.

FEMA is providing 475 buses for the convoy and the Astrodome's schedule has been cleared through December for housing evacuees, a spokeswoman for Texas Gov. Rick Perry said.

State officials say they hope that bringing in the Army to help with search, rescue and relief efforts will allow National Guard troops to redirect their efforts to restoring order and curtail the widespread looting taking place in New Orleans and elsewhere. "We're trying to shift our resources," said Denise Bottcher, a Blanco spokeswoman.

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The Consequential Timeline of Hurricane Katrina - Page 7

"This is one of the largest, if not the largest evacuations in this country," said Col. Jeff Smith, deputy director of the Louisiana Office of Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness.

1340: State Secretary of Transportation and Development Johnny Bradberry says Lake Pontchatrain has receded by two feet since Tuesday as water levels equalized between the lake and the flooded city interior. "The good news here is that we've stabilized. Water is not rising in the city," Bradberry said.

HHS Secretary Mike Leavitt Wednesday declares a federal public health emergency and accelerates efforts to create up to 40 emergency medical shelters to provide care for evacuees and victims of Hurricane Katrina. Working with its federal partners, HHS is helping provide and staff 250 beds in each shelter for a total of 10,000 beds for the region. Ten of these facilities will be staged within the next 72 hours and another 10 will be deployed within the next 100 hours after that. In addition, HHS is deploying up to 4,000 medically-qualified personnel to staff these facilities and to meet other health care needs in this region.

Governor Blanco issues an Executive Order allowing the National Guard to seize school busses in order to help in the evacuation:

National Guard spokesman Lt. Col. Pete Schneider, said the order, signed by Gov. Kathleen Blanco late Wednesday, means "we are going to take the buses. We need to get people out of New Orleans. ... Either they will give them up or we will take them."

01 SEPTEMBER -- THURSDAY

7,500 National Guardsmen from AR, CO, KS, MO, NV, OH, OK and TX are deployed in Louisiana. In flooded New Orleans, stranded people remain in buildings, on roofs, in the backs of trucks or gathered in large groups on higher ground. Violence continues to disrupt relief efforts as authorities rescue trapped residents and try to evacuate thousands of others.

National Guardsmen accompanied by buses (475 in all) and supply trucks arrive at the Superdome. President Bush tells ABC: "I fully understand people wanting things to have happened yesterday."

Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff announces that 4,200 National Guard troops trained as military police will be deployed to New Orleans over the next three days. Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco requests the mobilization of 40,000 National Guard troops. In an interview he admits he knows nothing of the people stranded at the convention center. FEMA Director Brown says he just heard about people stranded at the convention center "a few hours ago."

Governor Blanco announces at a press conference that there are less than 2,400 people left at the Superdome.

The Defense Department announces the deployment of an additional 30,000 troops to the Gulf region.

State and Federal authorities begin the evacuations of Charity and University Hospitals. They are halted briefly when shots are fired at helicopters evacuating patients.

Gasoline prices spike as high as $5 a gallon in some areas as consumers fearing a gas shortage race to the pumps.

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The Consequential Timeline of Hurricane Katrina - Page 8

02 SEPTEMBER -- FRIDAY

The Coast Guard announces it has rescued more than 10,000 victims of the hurricane and flood.

President Bush visits New Orleans, taking a helicopter tour with Mayor Nagin. According to the Mayor, Bush tells him that "he [the President] was fully committed to getting us the resources we need," Nagin said in the tattered Hyatt hotel next to the Superdome. "I told him I knew we could work together, and he said he understood."

Gov. Blanco rejects Bush administration proposal asking her to request a federal takeover of the evacuation of New Orleans. Louisiana officials rejected the request after talks throughout the night, concerned that such a move would be comparable to a federal declaration of martial law. (My Note: The Constitution requires that many forms of assistance MUST first be requested by the Governor of a State, so the rejection of this offer by Louisiana officials was binding.)

President Bush visits Alabama, Mississippi and Louisiana, and later signs a $10.5 billion disaster relief bill.

Tired and angry people stranded at the convention center in New Orleans welcome a supply convoy carrying food, water and medicine.

The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers estimate it will take 36 to 80 days to drain the city.

Texas officials say nearly 154,000 evacuees have arrived there.

Members of the Congressional Black Caucus criticize the pace of relief efforts, saying response was slow because those most affected are poor and black.

03 SEPTEMBER -- SATURDAY

Officials in New Orleans clear final evacuees from the Louisiana Superdome and Convention Center.

Utility companies work to restore power to more than 1 million Gulf Coast customers.

The Army Corps of Engineers brings in pumps and generators from around the nation to help get New Orleans pumps back on line and bail out the city.

Water and air rescue efforts continue in New Orleans; the U.S. Coast Guard says it has rescued more than 17,000 people, almost twice as many as it had saved in the previous 50 years combined, but that thousands of people remain stranded. Helicopters drop emergency food and water to people awaiting rescue.

04 SEPTEMBER -- SUNDAY

New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin announces plans to give his police officers some R&R, and asks FEMA to fund a week in Los Vegas for all NOLA police officers.

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The Consequential Timeline of Hurricane Katrina - Page 9

05 SEPTEMBER -- MONDAY

17th Street Canal breach closed with truckloads of rock and sandbags. Canal reopened so it can be used for pumping water out of city.

Suburban Jefferson Parish, across the 17th Street Canal from the levee breach that flooded much of New Orleans, begins allowing residents to return temporarily to retrieve their belongings.

Officials encourage residents remaining in New Orleans to evacuate. Deputy Police Chief Warren Riley said that "there is no reason -- no jobs, no food -- no reason for them to stay."

President Bush makes his second visit to the stricken region since Katrina struck, meeting with Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco and other officials at the state's relief headquarters in Baton Rouge.

IN THE DAYS THAT FOLLOWED:

President Bush asks Congress for an additional $50 billion in aid, and a week later proposes a relief package that may cost more than $200 billion, but includes private sector initiatives, tax relief and incentives, etc., which make up part of that "cost."

President Bush issues an executive order suspending the Davis-Bacon Act of 1931, allowing federal contractors rebuilding after Katrina to pay below the "prevailing" (read: union) wage.

FEMA director Michael Brown is removed from directing Hurricane Katrina relief efforts in New Orleans by Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff. He is replaced by Vice Admiral Thad W. Allen, chief of staff of the U.S. Coast Guard. Brown later resigns.

Forty-five more bodies are found in the flooded-out Memorial Medical Center in New Orleans. At this time, it is the largest cluster of corpses to be discovered in post-Katrina New Orleans. Louisiana's death toll rises to nearly 280.

U.S. Congress approves tax-relief bill for Hurricane Katrina victims, including elimination of early withdrawal penalty on retirement accounts, forgiven debts are not taxable, and more.

After starting to allow residents back into the city, the Mayor of New Orleans orders another evacuation for fear of Hurricane Rita; with the levees and pumping system in a weakened state, even a near-miss could bring flooding back to areas that have begun to dry out.

The official death toll in all states is now 973. Mississippi has refused to raise its death toll above 218, or to explain why. Thousands of dead in Mississippi and Louisiana have not been counted, nor have the bodies been retrieved.

Virtually all of New Orleans 1.4 million residents had to evacuate, and most of the city -- almost 180 square miles -- was swamped by Lake Pontchartrain. The cost of hurricane damage and recovery may exceed $200 billion, a price tag far above the recovery costs of 9/11. (For reference, the material losses from Hurricane Andrew in 1992 totaled $12.5 billion.)

Inevitably, in the Katrina after-action report, serious errors at the local, state and national level of government will be discovered, and emergency plans will be revised accordingly.

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The Consequential Timeline of Hurricane Katrina - Page 10

But -- individual preparedness is the front line of national preparedness. Local, state and federal government agencies could not begin to pre-position emergency-relief inventories for every contingency plan across the nation. Government agencies will likely not be able to meet even minimal needs for days or even weeks, depending on the nature of the catastrophe, and only then after the surge of response and recovery efforts is sufficient. (FederalistPatriot.US posts an excellent resource page "Recommended Action Plan" at

http://FederalistPatriot.US/useprpc/

with all you need to know about emergency preparedness measures for yourself and your family.)

(My Note:  The blame game continues and it is grossly misdirected. The vast majority of the blame rests on Louisiana officials, first the Mayor of New Orleans and second the Governor of Louisiana. Only the people of Louisiana have the power to replace the officials most responsible in the management of this catastrophe. Most specifically, I would say that the continued party-going attitude and actions of the New Orleans Mayor represented gross incompetence. The failure to issue timely orders, request assistance, and accept offered assistance rests on the Mayor of New Orleans and the Governor of Louisiana. The problems with the Federal response pale in comparison to the local and state response.)

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Disastrous politics... - Page 1

The Federalist Patriot

Patriot No. 05-38 Digest | 23 September 2005

THE FOUNDATION

"I think we have more machinery of government than is necessary, too many parasites living on the labor of the industrious." —Thomas Jefferson

TOP OF THE FOLD

Disastrous politics...

As residents in coastal Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama continue to piece their lives back together, there are two persistent questions about Hurricane Katrina at the forefront of acrimonious political debate (http://FederalistPatriot.US/news/quotes.asp) this week.

First, there is the lingering question of who is responsible for the lack of planning, preparation and infrastructural improvement in the days, weeks, months and years leading up to the hurricane. This all-important question, however, has spawned a concerted effort to focus on the sluggish federal response as a diversion. (As a resource for this question, please see the Katrina Consequential Timeline (http://FederalistPatriot.US/news/Katrina.asp).)

Clearly there were bureaucratic failures by FEMA—but that is the nature of the beast, and no amount of reform, other than decentralization, will change that. The most productive thing President George Bush can do to alleviate the bureaucratic abysses is to eliminate it. As noted in this column last week, "As a first measure, the President should fire every senior executive service lawyer in DHS, FEMA, DoD, et al. The entire federal bureaucracy is hamstrung by legalities."

As for the question of accountability in New Orleans, by now, everyone on the planet knows that most of New Orleans, with the exception of the original city settlement, has been developed below sea level—surrounded by expanding levees intended to protect it from Lake Pontchartrain, the Mississippi River and the Gulf. Those levees, designed to withstand a category three hurricane, were never upgraded to withstand a category four or five hurricane, though clearly such a storm was inevitable.

On a good day, New Orleans continuously pumps water out of the alluvial bowl created by its levees, though building structures there continue to sink. In the event of a category four or five hurricane, however, 80 percent of the city would be swamped, and every politician from the city's mayor to the state's governor knew it. But the Big Easy is a party town—a gambling destination—and the city's leadership wagered the city against odds of a big hurricane.

In the years prior to Hurricane Katrina, there were numerous factors that precluded the strengthening of New Orleans' levees. The primary burden for inaction lies with generations of corrupt Louisiana politicians, from the Huey Long dynasty forward. Despite the city's continued below-sea-level expansion, these crooked and negligent pols paid little regard to levee strength, even in the face of repeated warnings about their inadequacy. There were also successful legal challenges brought by environmental groups who blocked the expansion and hardening of levees in an effort to protect the neighboring wetlands. Indeed, New Orleans' hurricane-defense system—such as it was—would have been greatly improved by the Army Corps of Engineers had it not been for environmental lobby lawsuits in both 1977 and 1996.

In recent years, Louisiana has received more federal taxpayer-funded Corps of Engineer grants than any other state and has received more levee funding under the Bush administration than it did under the Clinton administration. However, that funding has been limited by massive boondoggle infrastructure projects like the 700-percent cost overrun for Ted Kennedy's Big Dig—$16 billion American tax payers spent on 7.5 miles of Boston highway that could have been spent on NOLA levees, but we digress.

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Disastrous politics... - Page 2

The funding New Orleans did receive was often diverted by the city's Levee Board to other projects. For example, the Board spent $2.4 million of levee funding on a Mardi Gras fountain near Lake Pontchartrain, and $15 million more on overpasses to riverboat casinos. All the while, a big storm was on the horizon.

On Monday, 29 August, after a few days of evacuation flip-flops, tens of thousands of New Orleans residents emerged midday to the realization that Katrina's worst winds had landed to the east. Although Katrina was now tearing into Mississippi and Alabama, New Orleans had—or so it thought—dodged the bullet.

As waters continued to rise against levees holding back Lake Pontchartrain, there was some concern that Katrina's massive rainfall might yet overtop the levees. However, it appears now that the levees were not overtopped. In fact, there is compelling evidence that the floodwalls failed structurally in two locations—which would not have happened if they had been built to specifications. (Contrary to assertions by Nation of Islam agitator Louis Farrakhan, the levees were not "blown up" in order to divert flood waters from "white" to "black" parts of the city.)

Simply put, somewhere there is a contractor, and a whole cadre of well-grafted inspectors, who are accountable for the structural failure of the levees. Finding that contractor will be one of many serious tasks facing congressional investigators in the coming months.

As you recall, in the immediate aftermath of the levee failure, Democrats were waving accusatory fingers and demanding an "inquisition commission." They were hoping for colorful headlines blaming the Bush administration and, by extension, anyone on a Republican ticket in the upcoming election year. Then, when Republicans joined in the call for investigations, Democrats quickly backed down and, indeed, refused to take part altogether. Upon reflection, they determined that an inquiry into factual communication, material distribution and evacuation failures after Katrina would instead bury Louisiana Democrats—from buck-passing New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin (see his evacuation plan)

(http://FederalistPatriot.US/news/depot.asp)

to lachrymose Governor Kathleen Blanco to hysterical Senator Mary Landrieu.

Truth be told, congressional investigators need only do one thing to get to the bottom of the floodwaters in New Orleans—follow the money.

Rep. Tom Davis, chairman of the Select Committee to Investigate the Preparation for and Response to Hurricane Katrina, said this week that his investigation will "move ahead" with or without Democrats. Rep. Davis, who also chairs the chamber's Government Reform Committee, said, "At the end of the day, we must come together for good, hard fact-finding." But, he noted, Democrats "could tie up the process forever, and losing time is losing information." (Of course, the Demos will obstruct the investigation, claiming it is a Republican cover-up.)

Perhaps the committee's first witness should be Bill Nungesser, a former Levee Board chairman who tried to reform the system. Mr. Nungesser says of the levee failure, "Every time I turned over a rock, there was something rotten. I used to tell people, 'If your children ever die in a hurricane, come shoot us, because we're responsible.' We throw away all sorts of money." (In other words, Louisiana Democrats had looted New Orleans long before Katrina hit.)

Rotten indeed, which leads us to the second pressing question about Hurricane Katrina this week: Who's going to pay for what—and how?

President Bush has proposed a massive reconstruction effort that will ultimately cost perhaps $200 billion both in hard-dollar reconstruction costs and soft-dollar tax incentives, enterprise zones and the like. The President also called for modest cuts in other government programs to offset the reconstruction costs, anticipating that congressional Republicans would follow suit with more aggressive proposals for cutting other department budgets.

=================See Page 3

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Disastrous politics... - Page 3

On that note, House Republican Study Committee chairman Rep. Mike Pence announced "Operation Offset" Wednesday, a proposal to cut $500 billion over the next decade. "We must begin now, as the American people expect particularly Republican majorities in Washington to do, to make the hard choices," said Pence, who anteed up $16 million earmarked in the just-passed highway bill for his district's roads and infrastructure. Pence was quick to add that cutting all the pork out of the massive $284-billion highway bill (about $120 billion) would offset only about half the Gulf Coast reconstruction costs, and that there would have to be substantial cuts across the board in other bloated programs.

In a remarkable move, House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi was quick to comply, announcing that she would return $70 million of the $129 million in highway-bill earmarks that she'd grabbed for her district.

Speaker Dennis Hastert warned, "We all know that we have a fiscal responsibility throughout this process. We want to make sure that taxpayer dollars are being used for their intended purposes and not being misspent."

Rep. Tom Tancredo added his concern about how reconstruction funds will be used: "The head of the FBI in New Orleans just this past year described the state's public corruption as 'epidemic, endemic, and entrenched. No branch of government is exempt.' The question is not whether Congress should provide for those in need, but whether state and local officials who have been derelict in their duty should be trusted with that money."

Undoubtedly, the potential for fraud is as massive as the reconstruction effort, and some of this "cost offsetting" is tantamount to dumping unconstitutional pork from one plate to another.

Amid all of this rancorous debate about who's to blame and who will foot the bill, the plight of those on the Gulf Coast who actually lost family members, homes and businesses somehow gets lost. Those at ground level are not worrying about political agendas. They're busy trying to provide for their families. Or perhaps they're searching through the rubble, trying to find fragments of family heirlooms and photographs. It is for them that we continue to pray every day.

Quote of the week...

"[For President Bush] to give credence to the notion that black poverty of recent years in New Orleans reflects racial discrimination and lack of opportunity was anything but an act of compassion toward blacks. He is either uninformed, which of course is troubling, or willing to bury truth for political ends, which is also troubling... The truth about black poverty today, as Kay Hymowitz of the Manhattan Institute has aptly put it, is that it is 'intricately intertwined with the collapse of the nuclear family in the inner city.'... Black children don't need politicians of any color who claim to hold the keys to their future. They need parents who know their names. Two of them." —Star Parker
On cross-examination...

"Among the pictures from New Orleans were lots of heart-rending shots of displaced mothers and children, but few of fathers and husbands. Liberal critics say Hurricane Katrina ripped aside the veil on America's extreme poverty. What it really ripped aside was the veil over the collapse of family, particularly among inner-city blacks, that lies at the heart of poverty." —Thomas Bray

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Disastrous politics... - Page 4

Open query...

"Last week, President Bush promised the nation that the federal government will pay for most of the costs of repairing hurricane-ravaged New Orleans, adding, 'There is no way to imagine America without New Orleans, and this great city will rise again.' There's no question that New Orleans and her sister Gulf Coast cities have been struck with a major disaster, but should our constitution become a part of the disaster?" —Walter Williams
Beyond New Orleans...

"Television does not capture the scale, the breadth, the intensity of the destruction. There are communities literally without any inhabitable structures. The size of this devastation is genuinely unprecedented in American history. Let me say right here that the federal government has been a good partner to us. Have they done everything perfectly? No, but neither have I. Neither has any mayor or any supervisor or any local government—but they have done so much more right than wrong." —Mississippi Gov. Haley Barbour
The BIG lie...

"Katrina stripped away any image of competence and exposed to all the true heart and nature of this administration. The truth is that for four and a half years, real life choices have been replaced by ideological agenda, substance replaced by spin, governance second place always to politics... This is about the broader pattern of incompetence and negligence that Katrina exposed and beyond that a truly systemic effort to distort and disable the people's government and devote it to the interests of the privileged and the powerful. The plan they're designing for the Gulf Coast turns the region into a vast laboratory for right-wing ideological experiments." —John Kerry on the President's free enterprise proposals as part of the Gulf Coast reconstruction effort. Kerry stopped by to survey the damage

(http://FederalistPatriot.US/news/kerry.asp)

in New Orleans.

This week's "Braying Jackass" awards:

"The stark and tragic images of human suffering in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina have reminded us yet again that civil rights and equal rights are still the great unfinished business of America." —Ted Kennedy, who reminds us of some other unfinished business, that of Mary Jo Kopechne's civil and equal rights
This week's "Braying Jenny" award:

"You know, the questions that have been raised about the competence and the effectiveness of this administration certainly are not limited to what's happened with Katrina." —Hillary Clinton

Amen Brother. A very long read but well worth the time for anyone that is really concerned about hearing the truth of the situation.

I would also like to add to the comments on the "Individual preparedness" section at the start of the article. I realise that it is sometimes hard for people in the poverty level to sometimes be able to afford to be ready for such disasters. Yet at the same time I agree with the writer of this article. To many people are taking on that socialist attitude that it is the governments responsibility to take care of them. They carry this to the point that they are not able to care for themselves at all.

There were many things that these people could have done for themselves to at least lesson the tragic things that they had to go through. There is an old saying "God helps those that help themselves". No this statement is not in the Bible as some people think but it is a wise saying anyway and it is true. It came into being because of people that sat around doing absolutely nothing for themselves waiting for God to do it all for them.

Wow, you beat me there - no way am I going to subject myself to reading that long of an article from a source of Bush administration propaganda.  For one, you might refer to a reputable source of news; second, highlights and a link would be much more conducive to a healthy debate.  Blaming local residents is exactly the type of ridiculous political shift the blame approach that the Bush administration campaign led by Karl Rove is pushing.  Totally disgraceful.

Think about it in these terms . . . mantaining a levee; not something that a local resident can do.  Preparing for a disaster of this scale that has been expected for years requires Federal action.  The Bush budget cut funding for projects to prepare for this problem with the levees!  Also, who was most effected by this disaster?  The poor.  As Christians, the plight of the poor is something that should be of interest to all of us.  Another example of Bush's failures: Under the Bush administration the poverty rate has increased every year and under Clinton the poverty rate declined every year.

Several points.

1. No one said that all the fault belonged on the residents, especially the poor. It was said that they could have reduced the problems that they had. Absolutely no disaster preparedness on their part whatsoever. I have lived through a number of typhoons, one was a super typhoon. The people of that area, although they are well down into the poverty level, at least took some kind of self preservation preparations as there was no possible way to evacuate.

2. It is the peoples responsibility to put people in office that will do their job (levees) this includes the Mayor and Governor. It is their city/state after all. As it was said all people irregardless of their position took an attitude of "it isn't going to happen here" let's put the money into partying.

3. Clinton Administration. Yeah .... let's go back to that so that we can have another 9/11 or worse and do nothing about it. I would not want to see what the Clinton administration would have done with 9/11 or Katrina/Rita.

If President Bush had forged ahead and took control of the Katrina situation instead of waiting for the Governor to relinquish control or to ask for specific things then he would be under attack right now for "bullying" is way in, "overstepping his bounds". It is a no win situation where the liberals are concerned.

Florida_Catholic,

It's easy to see why you are clueless on this situation. According to you, it wasn't worth your time to become informed about the facts, yet you still wish to point fingers without a clue of the facts. Had you bothered to spend 5 minutes of your time, most of your questions would have been answered.

The Federalist has been around a very long time, and it has nothing to do with President Bush. It is a Christian publication to inform Christians about politics and government. I am a Christian, so I appreciate and enjoy Christian sources of news. The perspective of the Federalist is as a Christian Founding Father, so I can understand why you would wish to avoid reading such a publication.   ::)

In the meantime, the facts are public record, and it will be impossible for the liberals to hide or ignore them. So, it's really not material whether you wish to become informed or not.

Love in Christ,
Tom

Romans 8:1-2 NASB  Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

Isn't its tagline the "Conservative Journal of Record"?

Yep, right along with, "The Internet's leading journal on Federalism and the Founders."

Thats what makes it "a Christian publication to inform Christians about politics and government."

 :D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

DUH!?

The Christian Founding Fathers were conservatives, and so are the Christians of today. Nearly all Christian publications are conservative. GOD never said "Anything goes", and neither do Christians who love and respect GOD.

So, I am absolutely amazed. I can't imagine why nearly ALL Christian publications are conservative. It's a real MYSTERY!

That tells everone how uninformed you are.

Well you know, when you live in that type of area. That is below sea level you will have problems.

Environmentalist activists were responsible for spiking a plan that may have saved New Orleans. Decades ago, the Green Left pursuing its agenda of valuing wetlands and topographical “diversity” over human life – sued to prevent the Army Corps of Engineers from building floodgates that would have prevented significant flooding that resulted from Hurricane Katrina.

Why was this project aborted? As the Times-Picayune wrote, “Those plans were abandoned after environmental advocates successfully sued to stop the projects as too damaging to the wetlands and the lake's eco-system.”  Specifically, in 1977, a state environmentalist group known as Save Our Wetlands (SOWL) sued to have it stopped. SOWL stated the proposed Rigolets and Chef Menteur floodgates of the Lake Pontchartrain Hurricane Prevention Project would have a negative effect on the area surrounding Lake Pontchartrain. Further, SOWL’s recollection of this case demonstrates they considered this move the first step in a perfidious design to drain Lake Pontchartrain entirely and open the area to dreaded capitalist investment.

On December 30, 1977, U.S. District Judge Charles Schwartz Jr. issued an injunction against the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers Lake Pontchartrain hurricane protection project, demanding the engineers draw up a second environmental impact statement, three years after the corps submitted the first one. In one of the most ironic pronouncements of all time, Judge Schwartz wrote, “it is the opinion of the Court that plaintiffs herein have demonstrated that they, and in fact all persons in this area, will be irreparably harmed if the barrier project based upon the August, 1974 FEIS federal environmental impact statement is allowed to continue.”

If the Greens prevailed, it was not because the forces of common sense did not make a compelling case. SOWL’s account reveals that during the course of the trial the defense counsel, Gerald Gallinghouse – a Republican U.S. Attorney who acted as a special prosecutor during the Carter administration – felt so strongly that the project should continue that he told the judge he would “go before the United States Congress with Democratic Louisiana Congressman F. Edward Hebert to pass a resolution, exempting the Hurricane Barrier Project from the rules and regulations of the National Environmental Policy Act because, in his opinion, [this plan] is necessary to protect the citizens of New Orleans from a hurricane.” Despite this, the judge ruled in favor of the environmentalists. Ultimately, the project was aborted in favor of building up existing levees.

In 1977, plans for hurricane protection structures at the Rigolets and Chef Menteur Pass were sunk when environmental groups sued the district. They believed that the environmental impact statement did not adequately address several potential problems, including impacts on Lake Pontchartrain’s ecosystem and damage to wetlands.

New Orleans Levees Not Designed for Storm
September 5th, 2005 @ 1:17am

By MARY DALRYMPLE
Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON (AP) - Projects designed to keep New Orleans from flooding in a hurricane prepared the city for a probable scenario, not the worst-case scenario. The network that was supposed to protect the below-sea-level city from flooding was built to withstand a Category 3 hurricane, the Army Corps of Engineers said. It was overwhelmed when Katrina's winds and storm surge came ashore a week ago as a Category 4 storm.

That has left some lawmakers wondering why officials only considered the consequences of a moderate storm.

"What that, in essence, says is that you're not going to worry about the biggest disasters that could occur, you're only going to worry about the smaller ones," said Rep. David Obey of Wisconsin, the top Democrat on the House Appropriations Committee.

"How many times do we have to see disaster overwhelm our preparedness before we recognize that we are playing Russian roulette with people's lives, with their livelihoods and with the life of whole communities?"

Louisiana lawmakers have long lamented that Corps of Engineers programs designed to protect New Orleans and surrounding areas were starved for cash.

Corps officials, said, however, that funneling more money into the agency's levee repair programs wouldn't have totally averted disaster. The infrastructure around the city was designed to withstand only a Category 3.

Lt. Gen. Carl Strock, Corps of Engineers commander, said some flooding would have occurred even if the remaining repair projects planned for the levees had been completed.

The infrastructure assumed that a storm bigger than a Category 3 has a very low probability of occurring.

When the project was designed about 30 years ago, the corps believed it was protecting the city from an event that might occur only every 200 or 300 years.

"We had an assurance that 99.5 percent this would be OK. We, unfortunately, have had that .5 percent activity here," Strock said.

Former Sen. John Breaux, D-La., said everyone has known for years that the levees wouldn't stop a "once every hundred years" storm that could put New Orleans under 20 feet of water.

The complaints and problems with corps funding go back to the Carter administration, and presidents since then have tried to draw money from the agency's projects to pay for other priorities.

Mike Parker, a former Mississippi congressman who left as civilian head of the corps in 2002 after criticizing the White House budget office, said the funding problems occurred through Democratic and Republican administrations.

"The corps requested money to complete the projects through the years, but the funding level wasn't given to them in order to do it," he said.

It's the Bush administration taking the brunt of the heat now.

House Majority Whip Roy Blunt, R-Mo., said New Orleans got an infusion of money for flood control projects in the late 1990s.

"There was less money spent after that huge project, as, of course, there would be," Blunt said. "Any time you do a big building project, when that project's over, the next year you spend less money."

Blunt suggested there might be a limit to the amount that federal programs can do.

"This is not something that government can always prevent," he said. "You know, God is actually bigger and nature is bigger than we are, and this is one of those instances."

Two Corps of Engineers projects were in place to control flooding and prepare for hurricane damage in southern Louisiana. One was a flood control project with channel and pumping station improvements for Southeast Louisiana; the other was a project to protect residents between Lake Pontchartrain and the Mississippi River levee from surges driven by a fast-moving category 3 storm.

Each year since 2001, the corps asked for much more money for those two projects than the Bush administration was willing to request or Congress was willing to spend, according to figures compiled by Sen. Mary Landrieu, D-La.

In addition, funding for the two programs declined between fiscal years 2001 and 2004, although both saw slight increases this year. Much of the federal budget outside homeland security and defense has been held down while the administration tries to control deficits under control.

Advocates also have pressed for money to restore the eroding Louisiana coastline as additional hurricane protection.

In the future, Breaux said, the federal government must think about a system of levees designed for the once-a-century storm.

"They're going to have to be built stronger. They're going to have to be built higher. They're going to have to be maintained," he said.

"It looks like Baghdad underwater out there."
New Orleans Levees Not Designed for Storm (http://www.ksl.com/?nid=157&sid=102181)

FC, if you would spend more time reading information, then blaming you would be okay. As you said earlier, theres enough blame for all the local goverment.

Resting in the Lords hands.
Bob

2 Peter 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

Believe it or not, God is not a Republican either.  I've spent many many hours watching the news, reading about, and researching my questions about Katrina and the many other government failures we've discussed.  That's why I've been able to respond with facts to each one of the myths you've proposed.  If you get all your news from a self proclaimed conservative source, do you see how you wouldn't be able to get a fair and balanced view of who's done what wrong.  This may be a stretch, but don't you think that the conservatives would be eager to blame the liberals rather than blame themselves?

And obviously liberals don't say "anything goes" or whatever other kinds of silly accussations you might make to help you categorize us as bad people who don't respect God.  For example, liberals don't support an elective war that kills tens of thousands of innocent people.  Liberals don't support the pollution and destruction of the Earth.  Liberals don't support letting corporate criminals off easy.  Liberals don't support bailing out failing megacorporations with taxpayer dollars.  Also, liberals believe that reducing the poverty rate is actually something that government should be interested in, while conservatives support an irresponsible tax cut to make the wealthy wealthier.

This President's "compassionate conservatism" is harming this country and has led to an unacceptable list of failures and hardly comprises a morally driven approach.

Liberals do support the killing of inocent babies, they do support degenerates like homosexuals, they do support many tax increases that do hurt those in the poverty level while lining their pockets with a lot of cash. They do sit on their laurels instead of protecting their people while the WTC is bombed, the USS Cole is attacked and setting the U.S. up for 9/11. They do offer up tons of money to a school in Africa for computers that doesn't even have eletricity to run them. They do support taking Christianity out of the U.S. and replacing it with Islam.

It is beyond me how anyone that considers themselves Christian can honestly support them.

As you yourself are doing. I can find many reports all blaming the President. What none of them do is blame, any local goverment (states.)

As apposed to a dummocat led country. Do you know that every major war has been started by a dummocat led goverment. I can remember when Ronald Regan was elected President. All the dummocats were upset by his election. They said he would run the country to ruin.  If I remember right, they also said he was the anti-christ.

It makes no difference who is elected, some one will always cry, over spilled milk. I vote for who will do the best job. I didn't vote for Kerry, who goes against everything I believe in. except it, they election is over your canidate lost. don't cry over spilled milk. Be apart of the solution, not the problem. Support the President, and troops.

Are you one of those that want the country split, as what Gore did to the country. Thats one of the reasons, Kerry lost. People do have long memories.

Also a note for you FC, I supported Carter, and Clinton even though my canidate lost. You need to do the same.

Resting in the hands, of the Lord.
Bob

Nehemiah 5:13 Also I shook my lap, and said, So God shake out every man from his house, and from his labour, that performeth not this promise, even thus be he shaken out, and emptied. And all the congregation said, Amen, and praised the LORD. And the people did according to this promise.

Lots of twisted arguments, but one caught my eye.  I'm curious how you supported Clinton.  I'd like to learn more about that.  Was it similarly to your blind support of Bush, i.e. in spite of his failures - you believe he does no wrong, or was it more like how I supported Clinton, because of his many great successes?

F_C,

I'll help you out some. Christians pray for leaders whether they were our candidate or not. Many prayed overtime for Clinton since he was a horrible role model for our children and caused America embarrassment with the entire world. One had to wonder moment by moment if he was stuck in a bordello or jail. I prayed for him several times per day, but I certainly didn't vote for him. When the election is over, the person is our leader whether we like them or not. Has anyone ever suggested to you that Christians pray for our leaders whether they were our candidate or not?

Your recent statements make me very curious, so I'll go ahead and ask:

Are you a Christian?

Do you pray for our leaders, including President Bush?

FC, I prayed for Clinton, even though he was a bad example for children. I never bad mouthed him, or protested against him. I supported him, and argued for him. He was the leader of the country, and deserved that support. I looked to his few good points, not the bad.

Now I have a question for you. Are you to blind to support, the United States, or are you against your country?

Resting in the hands, of the Lord.
Bob

John 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

You argued for him when the Republicans impeached him?  Now it seems like that's what you're alluding to by saying "I looked to his few good points, not the bad"  That may be true, and would be consistent with the way you're defending our current President after he's commited so many wrongs that make him such a horrible role model for our children.  However, I haven't come across many like you.

Yes, for the simple reason he was the President. Now, if you would answer my question.

Do you support, the United States, or are you against your country?

Resting in the hands, of the Lord.
Bob

Ezekiel 24:14 I the LORD have spoken it: it shall come to pass, and I will do it; I will not go back, neither will I spare, neither will I repent; according to thy ways, and according to thy doings, shall they judge thee, saith the Lord GOD.

I think you're the first person I've met who has said that . . . but I've got to give you credit for being consistent.  What exactly did you say in Clinton's defense about the whole Lewinsky thing?

I support my country, but in a very different way.  I was against Clinton when he did bad stuff, and I'm against Bush now when he does even worse stuff much more often.  I think that's how democracy is successful, the citizens of the country have to discuss the issues, stand up and be heard, and vote their well-educated minds.  If we blindly support someone, whether it's because they belong to the Republican party - as seems to be the case with everyone I've spoken except you - or if it's just because this person is the President, we do what he says, we are ignoring our most critical responsibilities as citizens.  Blind support is what dictatorships like Saddam Hussein's are about, not what our founding fathers set up for this great nation.

I felt he was guilty of adultery, though I didn"t voice out loud about it, I prayed instead. The one thing I didn't do, was judge him. I feel that God will address Clinton on that subject.

And see, thats why you DON'T support America. Clinton still deserved your support. My comment right here is not judging you. you have already judged yourself.

I will tell you something else, I am a Christian first, a patroit second. The president deserved the support of the nation.

Resting in the hands, of the Lord.
Bob

Exodus 33:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, Depart, and go up hence, thou and the people which thou hast brought up out of the land of Egypt, unto the land which I sware unto Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, saying, Unto thy seed will I give it:

F_C,

It appears that you are just a liberal on a Christian forum, so you answered my questions. I'll pray for you.

Tom

Hi all,

Firstly, sorry for my absence.. I've been off travelling the world, and have been unable to make comments from the proverbial road.

Great debate here though.. I've really enjoyed reading it.

Just a few quick comments on some of the more recent comments:  I too beleive that president Bush is a poor leader, and has made many critical errors.  As such, and as a responsible member of a democratic nation, I do what I can to voice this displeasure.  When Clinton was in the wrong, I did the same.  This isn't to say that "I prayed for both and so can not be accused of not supporting either president", because such an argument is absurd.  I find it very hard to beleive that most of you arguing against FC were really behind Clinton, as you claim to have been.  But, guess what?  That's OK.. That's why we get the chance to vote, and no one is expecting you, or even asking you to support a guy who you feel is a poor president; i don't think you should expect me to do the same.  

As a cute game, just once, I would like to see BEP or DW say that Bush has perhaps dealt with at least one thing poorly during his reign.  Just for fun... You don't even really have to mean it if you don't want to, just humor me a little.

Pastor Roger, I've always thought you were a great sounding guy, and have a great deal of respect for many of your view.  However, with a comment like the one you made about liberals wanting to replace Christianity with Islam, really shocked me.  I thought you were much smarter than that, and substantially less prone to ridiculous rhetoric.

One last point would be the simple request that we not, as a collective group continually fall back to the apparant "Alamo" that is attacking the Christianity of others.  It's not something in which I feel we should indulge.

cheers,

Jimmy

For those still wondering about responsibility with disaster preparedness, the following link should provide some insight:

http://www.ohsep.louisiana.gov/plans/EOPSupplement1a.pdf

It is not "ridiculous rhetoric" and it shows how misinformed and misled that you are. Thank you for making my point.

Hi Jimmy,

That will never happen from me. I didn't do it durning Clinton's term on office, I'm not about to start now. I don't think that Beps will do it either. :D

I think you need to reread, Pastor Rogers post again, Jimmy. :-X

Resting in the hands, of Jesus.
Bob

Matthew 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v311/randers/Agree-Think.gif)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v311/randers/pound.gif)

hi all,

DW:  How did I misinturpret "They do support taking Christianity out of the U.S. and replacing it with Islam."  I'm not sure how much more plainly something can be related, no matter how ridiculous the point.

PR:  Clearly, i have missed all of your proofs for liberals in America trying to replace Christianity with Islam.  Could you please tell me when a liberal has taken actions to try and force you to be a muslim?  I guess it just hasn't happened to me yet.  Wow... I must be quite lucky.

Cheers,

J.D.

Jimmy look at what has be highlighted. Thats why, I think you miss read, Pastor Rogers statement. The second part highlighted should have been apart of the first highlight. It is almost like a after though, and added in.

Resting with the Lord.
Bob

Genesis 24:49 And now if ye will deal kindly and truly with my master, tell me: and if not, tell me; that I may turn to the right hand, or to the left.

I never said that anyone tried to force anyone else to be a muslim. I said, "They do support taking Christianity out of the U.S. and replacing it with Islam." There is a difference in those two statements.


If you were in the U.S. and paying attention to what is actually going on instead of just listening to liberal news medias you would understand what I was talking about.

Check out the ACLU, CAIR, and the CPUSA. That would be good starters for you.

Brother Bob,

I just saw that you posted while I was getting ready to post. Thank you, I see that you understood what I was saying.

Your welcome P.R. Now if some of the others, are aren't American could understand, the American language. :D :-X ;)

Heh... Well, it would seem I'm a bit out of my league here. It still amazes me how much I, a highschool student, have to learn. But I will say this much. I am behind Pastor Roger and Dream Weaver 100%. Do I agree with everything Bush has done? No. I don't. But I support him and respect him.

Even if he was the worst president in history (which I do not believe he is by a long shot), I would still support and respect him as a leader... That is my responsibility as a Christian, to honor and respect those that God has placed in authority over me. Remember, even David refused to kill King Saul, though he had several chances and would likely have gotten away with it. In fact, when one man, hoping for glory, came to David and reported (falsely) that he himself had killed Saul, David had him executed.

To the liberals: I would strongly suggest you stop turning your broken records. If you believe President Bush is doing so poorly, COME UP WITH A BETTER SOLUTION YOURSELF, AND GO OUT AND TRY TO GET IT IMPLIMENTED! IF YOU DON'T HAVE A BETTER SOLUTION, A VIABLE SOLUTION, A PRACTICAL SOLUTION, JUST SHUT UP! I can't tell everyone how tired I've grown of this political crap over the past few years.

(Oh, BTW, If you think Clinton was so great, study economics. Economic changes take about four years to take major effect. IE, Clinton's the reason the economy was sluggish for so long. Bah... I hate politics. It leaves a foul taste in my mouth.)

Hello LittlePilgrim,

Amen! - good post! Most Christians also pray for their leaders whether they voted for them or not. Your point about God placing people in authority is Biblical. Even if a Christian disagrees with what a leader is doing, the Christian should still be praying for that leader.

AND, the liberal talking points are like a broken record. I guess they believe if the same thing is repeated over and over enough, someone might believe it.  :D

Love In Christ,
Tom

Hebrews 12:1-2 NASB  Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

I give a second Amen, LittlePilgrim. Politics can be a sickening issue and wear one out quite quickly with its merry-go-round antics. One of the problems here is people setting the eyes on the things of this world and not on the buisness of our Lord.

The verse that is displayed at the bottom of blackeyedpeas last post pertains to this very subject. We should keep God at the center of all things that we do or say and this includes our political decisions.

"let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, fixing our eyes on Jesus,"

Instead of tearing down our President and our country it is time to turn to prayer for both. Prayer that the President will make the right decision for this country and do so according to Gods will.

I to give a third Amen, LittlePilgrim. How you said it, is very well said for a high school student!
:D

Resting in the hands, of Jesus.
Bob

Deuteronomy 32:38 Which did eat the fat of their sacrifices, and drank the wine of their drink offerings? let them rise up and help you, and be your protection.

Hey here's a thought.  We could all stop trying to push the blame on Bush, or the Govenor, mayor, Brown, Brown's sister's mother's father's brother-in-law's mom.  How 'bout we just blame God?

Now, as sacriligious as that sounds, let me add that I'm 100% serious.  I truly believe that what we've witnessed in N.O. is a sign of the times we are in.  Man can do anything!  Or can he?  I think God gave us a wake up call.  He did so with a massive tsunami, but the U.S. prided themselves on their preparedness.  God just poked a major hole in that pride.  He is Sovereign.  He reigns.  

And as a simple man's political viewpoint...the only man out of this group I'm not seeing point fingers, or otherwise, is Bush.  Wonder if he knows God's in control too... ;)

Just a thought...

Let me also just say that I'm not a blind George W. Bush fan.  I believe that he is the right man for this job at this time.  I believe he's doing the best job he can.  I also believe that some of his decisions aren't the wisest.  I believe that he's gotten us in a wartime situation on faulty information that we may not have needed to get into, politically, socially and most definitely economically.  I also believe that as an American, with no apparant outright biblical fault in this decision, I should support him with my voice, my actions, and my knees.   :)  But most importantly, I believe that George W. Bush is a man.  He's not God.  He's not Superman.  He's just a man, with the same limitations that we all have.  He has faults.  He has sin.  But he also has the same Spirit most of us here claim, and the example of He Who was "...tempted in all points yet without sin" to help him make the decisions he has to make.  It's easy to cast blame.  It's not easy making the call.  Like Tom said, Christians should be praying for their leaders regardless of their beliefs.

Hi Allinall,

It is not just in New Oleans. There are messages given by God all around the world right now. A typoon in China, Taiwan, Japan, earthquakes and a tsunami.

In New Orleans there was a boat that got tossed around pretty badly and set on dry ground. All of the contents were thrown off of tables and such to the floor except a Bible which laid open on a counter to Rev 10.

In a church which had been under water a Bible was on the communion table. Everything else that had been on the table was on the floor.  This Bible was soaked, it had not floated off but was still on the table and stuck opened to Rev 10.

The Chaplain that was with the unit that found these Bibles was in his tent at night reading his Bible. He got up and away from his table to talk to a Soldier. When he came back his Bible was now open to Rev 10 when it had been open to the book of Psalms.

Are these coincidences or is this God speaking to us?

Take note of Rev 10:11 specifically.

Rev 10:11  And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.

I find that God is a God of "coincidence."  :)  Nicely pointed out Brother.  Amen and amen.

Hm... Very nicely said, Allinall. :)

Now... I don't think anything like that is coincidence. The earth is on a collision course with the end times, the moral values of society and of we humans as a whole have taken a sharp nosedive.  Theft, sexual sin, murder, blasphemy, and all other manner of sin are rampent even in our most 'sophisticated' circles and societies. I think all we've seen (and this is just my personal belief) indicates that God is firing warning shots before the actual strike. It's a wakeup call to the whole earth, Christian and non-Christian alike.

These disasters bring to my mind what Jesus said when his disciples asked for signs of the end times. He listed: Wars, rumors of wars, plague, famine, pestilance... Paster Roger, perhaps you could help me look this up. I've never been good with references. XD

It makes me wonder... Are we really focused on the wrong place? Are we so concerned with watching our own backs, our own interests in this country, that we've forgotten to turn our eyes to the skies? Christ said he would come 'Like a thief in the night'... When we least expect it. Are we ready?  ???

LittlePilgrim,

The verses that you referenced follows.


Mat 24:6  And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Mat 24:7  For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
Mat 24:8  All these are the beginning of sorrows.



2Pe 3:9  The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2Pe 3:10  But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11  Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12  Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?


My pleasure.  ;) ;)

Now that's just good thunkin'!   :D  I'll steal BEP's line here "Keep looking up!"  :)

Hello Allinall,

Brother Kevin it's great to hear from you. I do believe that I've heard or seen


somewhere before.  :D

AND, more and more, I think that the HOMECOMING might be soon. Right now would be great! I just quoted the following portion of Scripture in another post, but I want to quote it again.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 NASB  For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.

It is a tremendous comfort to know that this world of sin is not our home. This world gets worse by the minute, but our real citizenship and HOME is not of this world.

Love in Christ,
Tom

Tom,

I'm not much for hymns, but that hymn is still one of my favorites.  Love that song Brother.  Thanks for posting it!  I've never been much of a "cloud watcher."  I've always been a more here and now kinda guy.  I've always known and full heartedly believed in the resurrection, Jesus imminent return and being with Him for eternity, but I've always looked to the road before me with my head down.  I'm gettin' more and more bored with that view.   :)

Our pastor spoke Sunday from Romans 8:23-25, and correlated it with Ecclesiastes 1:1-5 (? bad memory easy lookup  :D).  He related the passage to our struggles with sin in this life and our hope of eternity with Jesus.  He said that we tend to live day by day, "under the sun."  We need to live day by day "above the sun."  "Huh?"  Was most of our responses!   :D  But he showed the monotiny of Solomon's daily life under the sun.  It was monotinous because it was horizontal in it's viewpoint.  And, as Solomon said, "there's nothing new under the sun."  If we'd just take the time to realize the relationship with our Abba Father Who is above the sun, and start looking at life from a vertical point of view, we'd get along alot better.  Yet, scripturally minded as I tend to be, Paul was writing about his difficulties with this body of death.  MAN!  What a perspective!  Our life is above the sun.  We should be walking day in and day out not only expectantly looking for His return, but longing for it.  I truly believe that such a perspective in life makes the horizontal preparedness we want when He returns a far more simple thing.  Not that we attain it, but that we strive to attain it.  We fight the good fight keeping the faith with the hope of eternity just over there.  

Good thoughts Tom.   :)  And let me just repeat...

Amen brothers.

Allinall, I agree with your Pastor only I have always used the term that we should "live day by day under the Son rather than under the sun". It's meaning is the same as your Pastors statement.

Rom 8:24  For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Rom 8:25  But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

Amen!

Amen indeed! :)

Very well co-opted boys.  my congrats to you all.

Co-opted?

(http://imagehostgotcha100/ims/pictes/209050.gif)

I think I do...

I suspect he'd expand on the clever wit and insightful musings but only if the rest of are up to the daunting task of grasping his brilliance.

Let us not embroider the situation beyond that which it is. The use of co-opted was not that brilliant. The question I have is the context and purpose of his statement. Or is he parroting a term that he does not fully understand.

 :D   ???   ::)   :P   ;D   8)

LLL  -  ACLU  =  ROFL

(http://img84.echo.cx/img84/4866/agreed8mv.gif)

I'm with P.R. on this one.  I understand the sentiment, it's the word usage that's slightly ajar...

hi all,

Thanks for all of the replies!  Although some of you don't really seem to be playing very nice...

PR: Many dictionaries include, as a definition for "co-opted" the following word usage: "To take or assume for one's own use; appropriate"  It seemed to me, that through a series of posts, the discussion topic moved away from the abismal approval ratings currently enjoyed by the Bush administration (if you beleive the numbers) into a rant about your usual list of talking points.  I was impressed with your collective ability to turn the thread around, and hence, used that particular term (quite appropriately I might add)  Perhaps you can call off the dogs now, if you wouldn't mind.

Cheers,

Jimmy

Hello Jimmy,

We buy feed for our cattle at the co-op, and it usually comes in burlap sacks. In terms of the dogs, it sounds like you are hollering for help. You will be fine as long as you stay in the tree unless a mountain lion joins you. I hate it when that happens.  ;D  In the meantime, we'll poll the dogs and see what your tree-climbing approval rating is.

Woof!

woof woof

(http://images.animationfactory.com/imagedir/animations/animals/dogs/hip_dog_rapping/hip_dog_rapping_lg_wm.gif)

"Who let the dawgs out? WOOOF!! WOOOFWOOOF!!!"

 ;D

Now, Roll Over!

(http://www.thewe.cc/thewei/&/images3/2004_war_photos/bush_pointing_finger.jpe)

I figure, who cares what kind of job Bush is doing?

I wonder why my fellow Christians seem to be sold on his faith when he refuses to cut ties with the Skull and Bones Society. There are too many Christians in America that are lukewarm and ignorant and think they can be Freemasons or belong to some sort of occult-oriented fraternal organization and yet also be true Christians at the same time.

I'm not confident I would want this man representing Christianity to America, and I'm also starting to think it's impossible to be a Christian and make it into politics, unless you're lukewarm and compromising.

I wonder, how many actual Christians are in office among the Senate and the House? Why do my fellow Christians seem to think the Republican party is also like, the Christian party? Just because they say they are pro-life and anti-gay marriage?

I think we all care, both his supporters and his detractors. It's a matter of caring because we as the people have the power to influence in which direction the president, whomever he may be, takes this country. If we do not use that power and make no attempt to change things for the better, then we really have no right to complain, do we? :)



I've actually read quite a bit about Bush, and I think (personally) that he is a wonderful president, second only to (in recent days) Ronald Raegan.

I'm not sure what you mean by refusing to cut ties with Skull and Crossbones society, but we as Chistians cannot be reclusive. The only way to change this world is to live among those that are a part of it. Remember, even Christ associated with tax-collectors, prostitutes, gentiles of all kinds, and these were considered to be the worst sinners of His day.
Did he make them his CLOSEST friends? No. But did He turn them away? No. He loved them and sought them out. Remember the Samaritan woman by the well? Or what about Zaccheus? Levi, later named Matthew, was one of Christ's disciples. Could he have changed if Christ chose to avoid him? I don't think so.

I agree. There are far too many lukewarm Christians, not just here, but around the globe. They think they can take part in something like freemasonry (a topic which I've actually studied a great deal) and still be Christians at the same time.

Are you referring to Bush's statements regarding Islam? That shows ignorance on his part, I think, but it also shows that he is trying not to violate the first ammendment (seperation of church and state). He is trying to not use the power of the presidency to (unconstitutionally) support his religion over that of others. But he has made it very clear where his beliefs and values lie.

These are all just based on a few, rather ambiguous statments of course. If you could be more specific? Maybe I could answer you better. :)



Again I'm curious as to why. I think he has done a wonderful job, well... As wonderful a job as he can do with the restrictions placed on him by the presidency and the consitution.

A Christian does not have to be lukewarm and comprimising. Again, I'll point you back to Ronald Raegan.



To be honest? I'm not entirely sure.

To your second question, I've got two answers.
The first is this: Looking at society, you'll generally find that the only people openly opposed to abortion and gay marriage are those with a firm moral foundation. More often than not, these are Christians.
Secondly, it is not so much the republicans being the Christian party as it is (in my humble opinion) the conservative movement being a Christian movement.

Anyway, I hope all this helps. :)

The Skull and Bones Society is a college fraternity type organization that conspiracists due to their lack of knowing what it is has turned it into a big Satan driven anti-American, anti-Christian, one world order organization. The Skull and Bones Society is quite secretive as many frat groups sometimes tend to be. That and the fact that many of it's members have reached upper positions in our government have led to this conspiracy belief.

A fraternal organization is a brotherhood, and the Skull and Bones implies the same type of oaths that Freemasonry has, and it also has perverted sexual practices involved, among many other sketchy things like a "pirate" attitude. It is clear we are to have nothing to do with these things, even the Greek college fraternities are suspect, unless you feel fine being equally yoked to people (fraternity is literally "brotherhood") who regularly binge drink and engage in Bacchanalian orgies and promiscuity.

All too often I hear people pooh pooh this as just another "conspiracy theory", which is a silly phrase and denies the actual information involved. The Skull and Bones itself is literally a conspiracy- a secret and powerful organization with a ton of influence- the "secret" and "organization" and "powerful" (both pres. nominees were Bonesman) all make this a literal conspiracy- it's not some paranoid delusion, it's an accurate description of how leadership works in the world, by powerful people conspiring about certain very important matters in secret.

We are not to take oaths, we are not to be unequally yoked in the name of "reaching people for Jesus", and to avoid these groups is not being reclusive, it's avoiding a dark alliance. People are very naive to think Jesus just hung out with sinners all day- He hung out with his converts, and lived and worked in a world full of sinners as we all do. Paul says we COULD NOT remove ourselves from hanging out with sinners even if we wanted to, because we share the same planet with them (1 Cor. 5:9-11). There is no commandment from Jesus to "not avoid sinners but hang out with them", because this is just a fact of life anyway. All too many times I hear this baloney when Christians try to justify missionary dating and this kind of nonsense. We have to hang with sinners whether we want to or not, but we are not supposed to be equally yoked. Membership in a fraternal organization like the Skull and Bones is an unequal yoke and Bush needs to completely renounce this, and renounce his oaths and bonds of brotherhood. Instead he says things like "well, my involvement with them is so secretive that this is all I can say about that."

I don't know much about the Reagan era, just like I cannot comment on whether Bush is doing a good job or not politically, but I believe I do know discernment among Christians and I've had my questions about Reagan on that front as well. Didn't he belong to the masons as well, and didn't he participate in astrology? These are the kinds of things that people in power end up doing, and they stray from sound Christian doctrine. It's just the nature of power. Remember, what was the one thing Satan offered Jesus when he tempted him?

I have no problem with my fellow Christians getting involved in politics- I mean this is the one country where common people can supposedly do that. But I do have a problem with Christians praising a person(s) in office as the White Knight of Christianity when they probably need to be examined a little more in regards to that. It takes more than just being anti-abortion, and claiming you are a Christian etc. I mean we have a lot of really popular false teachers existing in America today, and people gullibly follow them because of a sort of basic form of ignorance about some Christian doctrine. I'm not a teacher by any means, but when I see leadership involved with these types of things I get upset and don't want to be associated with that, or have that lead unknowing Christians astray.

Nightdriving,



Jesus did "hang out with sinners all day". After all we are all sinners. Even the Apostles were sinners. After all this was the reason that Jesus came to us. When Jesus told us to come out from among them He was telling us not live as they do, to stand out as a living witness for Him.

President Reagan was not a freemason as many would have people to believe, neither was Billy Graham though many would claim to have such proof. Many such stories are told about various leaders in an attempt to try to destroy their leadership.

These leaders are placed into position by God or they would not be there. This does not mean that we are to worship them. After all they are just men and therefore sinners just as we are. Being a man, President Bush is far from being perfect.

As for the Skull and Bones. People admit it is secret, the members of it will not talk about it, yet there are so many that claim they know everything about it and are certain that it is evil. I ask, how do they know this when they admittedly know nothing about it? They make assumtions based on a few peoples crimes that just so happened to be members. Judas was an apostle and he also commited an evil atrocity. This does not make all of the Apostles evil.

When a person joins the Military, takes a government office, becomes a police officer, becomes a Doctor or a number of other such jobs they are required to take an oath. This does not and should not put their job ahead of God. We cannot all be Preachers or Deacons or .......  We all have different jobs according to that which God chooses us to be.

If a person should not get into politics then David, Solomon, Moses and many other such men of God were wrong and it was wrong of God to put them into that position. Note I say wrong of God because Moses did not want the responsibility of being a leader and God chose him and told Him to lead them anyway. Now we all know that God is never wrong.

Thanks for your response Pastor, but I believe you're over-generalizing my statements and missing my point.

I meant to differentiate between "sinners" and actual "coverts" of Jesus. Implying that if a prostitute or adulterer decided to follow Jesus they were no longer sinners in the Jewish sense, they were now converts to Christ and repented of their ways (hopefully, that's what's supposed to happen anyway). This was to repudiate the false belief that we are commanded to hang out with "sinners" for as I said, we could not avoid them if we tried according to Paul (1 Cor. 5:9-11). We will hang out with them no matter what, as a consequence of living on Earth. Sure, we are all sinners, but in Christ we are also now "priests and Kings and saints" and we are supposed to have repented of habitual sins. People use the whole swim-with-the-fishes attitude to justify things like missionary dating, which is totally wrong. That's what I was trying to say. We're fishermen, we don't swim with the fishes, know what I mean? We catch them from the safety of our boat and our own fellowship. This does not mean we avoid service or jobs, but rather avoid the unequal yoke, bonds of brotherhood, etc.

     But I would ask you this, didn't Jesus command us to not swear oaths? Because the armed services require oaths, does this then justify taking oaths when Jesus commanded againts it? Someday everyone will have to take an oath or a mark just to participate in society (that would be a 666) according to Revelations, so does that justify taking the mark, just because the military or political offices require it? Rather I say this is the beginings of lukewarm thinking, to say "well the military requires an oath, so it's not evil, even though Jesus COMMANDED against it." And by the way, Freemasonry and Skull and Bones require BLOODY OATHS that are public record, not conspiracy theory. This is nothing to sniff at.

As far as the whole good/evil politics thing, again I think you're misunderstanding me. My point is a Christian should not be involved with Freemasonry or anything closely related to it, which includes Skull and Bones. A christian also should not be involved in New Age practices like astrology, which Reagan was definitely into, that is a fact, not a rumor. But I understand the times, I understand people get confused about these things and are overwhelmed by the culture- hence my point here- you have to avoid PARTICIPATING in certain groups. You will never be able to avoid the actual individuals, it's there in common ground everyday life we witness to them, so the swim-with-the-fishes attitude angers me when trying to be applied to this situation.

You cannot be a Freemason and be a solid Christian at the same time, neither can you be a Bonesman. It is an unequal yoke. Look at what Bush said about Islam, that shows his incredible ignorance and worldliness in these matters of spirituality.

I never said a Christian should not get involved in politics. In fact I said the opposite, because this is one of the few countries that supposedly provides the opportunity. I'm only doubting how much integrity a Christian can maintain without compromising with such power in this CURRENT non-theocracy (the Bible guys you mentioned served in a theocracy, not a communitarian democracy). Please don't misrepresent my statements to try to make them detractable.

My point again, to clarify: Christians should not be a part of fraternal organizations like Freemasonry and Skull and Bones, and any Christian convert should renounce all fraternal allegiances to them and their oaths, otherwise they are unequally yoked. If Bush still considers himself a Bonesman, he is an ignorant, lukewarm Christian at best.

Actually, just to make my point super clear:

Can a Christian be a Freemason?

Can a Christian be a Bonesman?

The answer to both questions is a firm "absolutlely NOT".

That's my point.

I agree with you on the freemason. There is not enough known about the other one to say that for certain one way or another.

Well, hopefully I can convince you of the sinister nature of the Skull and Bones Society.

The obvious thing that's well documented is the taking of blood oaths and occultic, mystical initiation rites similar to Masons and Mediterranean Mystery Cults, and ancient Egyptian religion. These rites include an initiate masturbating inside a coffin and discussing his entire sexual history with another brother, not as a confession at all, but as a sort of Hegelian dialect to desensitize the initiate to sin, and dissuade him from any moral foundation he may have had. They then obviously party down with co-eds as all college frats do, but with more power and money and secrecy backing the whole thing, so it is far more decadent than your average frat party.

I believe these are concrete, well-documented facts diclosed by witnesses, i.e. former Bonesmen and welcome or unwelcome observers.

A definite concrete fact is the symbolism of the group and what it represents. The Skull and Crossbones are a pirate motif and represent complete control of life and death. Pirates were murderous thieves, and also often involved in occultic practices. Now belonging to this group has much more serious implications I think, than say belonging to a baseball team called "the Pirates" because of the oaths and rituals and even the LIFESTYLE involved.

Everyone who's ever come in contact with even a college fraternity knows what goes on as far as drugs, alcohol, and sex are concerned. We all know Bush was into liquor, a womanizer, and a coke-head. I believe he repented of this (hopefully), but his reputation was obvious.

I think repenting of his membership in that club is obviously required. I can't see any reason for him to stay in it other than to maintain his power, at the risk of having many Christians such as myself not really trust him as a fellow Christian just yet.

Hello Nightdriving,

 ???   ::)

The bones stuff was 30 years ago, a college fraternity, and both candidates were members. The election is over, so what is your point? John Kerry might run again, but George Bush won't, so are you doing early work on the 2008 election in case John Kerry runs? You won't have to worry about me. I would do a write in if John Kerry was the only candidate on the ballot.

Most people are smart enough to see through all of the politics, especially the dirty politics recently. Regardless, the election is over and George Bush won't be running again. So, what are you wanting or working for?

I do vote for a Democrat when I think they are the best person for the job. However, generally they have associated themselves with liberal principles that are anti-family, anti-morals, anti-God, the ACLU, and the Michael Moores of the society. If the party had any sense and wanted to attract more Christian voters, they would disassociate themselves from the OBVIOUS.

Tom

blackeyedpeas,

Apparently you are thinking I'm a liberal democrat of some sort out to smear Bush. I'm not out to do that. I disagree with most of the liberal things you mentioned, Kerry, the ACLU, etc.

I am not a Democrat, but neither am I a Republican- I pretty much refuse to cast votes for individuals at all because I don't want to be also held accountable for their inevitable crimes by throwing in my vote of support. If someone could point out a genuine Christian candidate I could trust I would support them- here in California it's not likely to happen- it's usually the "lesser of two evils" in which case I choose neither.

What I've been posting about actually has nothing to do with politics, rather I'm questioning the Christian nature of Bush.

Bonesman are in a lifetime fraternity, bound by oaths of brotherhood, so it doesn't matter if he was in school 30 years ago, he refuses to renounce his membership. If I saw Christians in the church who were Freemasons I would bring these things to their attention as well. So I don't care how long he serves or when his time is up, I want to be aware and want my fellow Christians to be aware of what public figures representing Christianity are all about especially if they have a ton of influence. We already have a load of false teachers on tv and radio making us look like fools to America. I do this in the spirit of the Bereans, who even questioned and tested Paul before they accepted him.

My problem, I guess, is with Christians gullibly holding up Bush as some sort of white knight of Christianity, when he is actually misrepresenting us if he is a Bonesman and saying the things about Islam he has said ("the Koran is the word of God" etc.) Hey, God bless Bush. I pray for him and all leaders, just as the Bible says. But I won't point out to unbelievers Bush or his work as a shining example of Christianity. Usually, I can't even defend Bush to unbelievers, just based on his political work. I mean, anybody find those WMD's yet? Iraq was apparently about as much of a threat to us with their "terrorism" as the rice farmers in Vietnam were a threat to us with their "communism". Bush is just a puppet of whatever power structures are out their with their globalist agendas. If he can't at least renounce his involvement with a secret society, what's left? Hey, he's apparently trying to get some anti-abortion justices into the Supreme Court, but other than that I can't even defend a majority of his political work to the world, as far as I know. And I don't know much about politics, I'm more concerned with where he stands as a Christian and how he represents us to the world.

So again, my point is, and I thought I made it clear: I don't like the fact that Bush is a Bonesman and I think he should renounce his oaths and bonds of brotherhood with them. It's akin to having a Freemason in the church, an unequal yoke.

That is very obvious by your following comments.


As for your main point .......

Anyone that looks to any man as an example of Christianity is looking in the wrong direction. I would seriously suggest though instead of telling people who or what to not look to that we should be telling them who they should be looking to  .....  Jesus Christ very God.

Pastor,

Amen to your last comment. Thanks for putting that in perspective for me. But Bush being a Bonesman is still not sitting right, regardless.

The first comment has moved me to start another topic, where I'll voice my opinions on what you said.

I really do not believe in polls for the Prtesident's ratings!   let us look at what he has done.  Many people run him down for his Christian belief,and then he makes unchristian decisions.  I believe he has a host of bad advisors and hence he makes errors.   Who else will do better than him at the moment.  Please don't mention Hilary!

Hello Mills,

I don't believe in polls either. If they were accurate, Kerry would have beat Bush by 14%, and that didn't happen.

I can't remember a more volatile and important time in our recent history. I'm still optimistic that more positive things will be done to turn toward GOD.

By the way, I promise not to mention Hilary. If I do, please slap me and wake me up.  ;D

Love in Christ,
Tom

Romans 15:5-7 NASB  Now may the God who gives perseverance and encouragement grant you to be of the same mind with one another according to Christ Jesus, so that with one accord you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, accept one another, just as Christ also accepted us to the glory of God.