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I have known and met many people that have faced Persecution for various reasons, and I have been persecuted for being Christian, but no where near the extent of what they have faced.  

We are entering a time when Christians are facing more Persecution than ever.  Watchdog groups may keep count of the acts of violence, human rights violations, what groups, nations and governments are doing to Christians, we must not learn hate.  We must remember to love those that persecute us and pray for them and never take retaliation.  

The purpose of this is, THEIR soul.  We know where we are going when we die, especially if it's by the hands of the persecutor.  They aren't going to the same place, that is the saddest part of all and exactly why they need our prayers and love.

The Flip Side to Persecution is Christians weak in their walk with the Lord may be willing to comprise their beliefs to save face.  Which it turns out, that person is lying to whomever, and their selves.    

Hi 'Zilla,
 
That's a hard pill to swallow.  Retaliation is sometimes necessary to protect ourselves, our families, our communities and our Christian ideals.  I don't believe God intends for us to turn belly-up to the sword.

But you are right on about loving an praying.  We can and should pray for our enemies - even as we are retaliating against their transgressions.

I think?? that what Godzilla is saying that we are not to take revenge. The word retaliation is usually used in reagards to taking revenge. To take actions to protect ourselves and bring about peace is not necessarily an act of revenge.

Theres no question that it would take the Grace of God in certain situations for me not to want to retaliate.   And really I believe that is the key.  Its hard to say how we would react to any given situation.  Its human nature to strike back, and we all know the struggles of our own humanity.   Even Peter took up the sword and chopped off the soldiers ear....(I'm sure he was really aiming for his head though  ;) )    

For us to respond in the way Jesus would have us respond, I think comes down to His measure of Grace at that moment, and us being ever mindful and yielding to the Holy Spirit who abides in us.

A very good point 2T. Was Peters actions those of revenge or those of defense?

Hmmm....I would say defense.   BTW, I was wrong before, John says it was the high priest's slave Malchus who Peter struck, not a Soldier

Ooopps. I should have caught that one, too. It got right by me.

Now that I think about it more, why would Peter even be wearing sword....could it have been for defense purpose?  Pretty odd for fisherman huh...lol?

He was wearing the sword because Jesus had told them that were with Him to purchase one. Was it so that they were not all taken with Jesus (defense)? Or was it so that Jesus could heal the ear of the servant and allow the word of this miracle to return to the people that sent Malchus so they would know who He was?

You know, I've read this many times but this is a point I had never really stopped to think about in this light.

A few commentaries state that it was common for Galileans to carry swords for defense due to thieves animals etc, but none of them give a reference to follow.  

Hmmm

It is in Luke 22:36, 37 that tells where Jesus told them to purchase the swords just prior to going to the mount of Olives. One other thought here ... Perhaps Jesus was showing that the Lamb went to the Slaughter willingly without a fight to prove that He willingly went to the cross for us.

Of course you're right PR - I guess I was thinking if someone killed my mother I'd go after them before they had time to kill my father.  The war on terror is retaliation - in a defensive sense.  To me revenge and retaliation are different - at least a little...
Revenge is selfish.
Retaliation is putting an issue to rest so it won't happen again.

I like this discussion guys.   I looked up the following and find the definitions interesting.

Retaliate
transitive senses : to repay (as an injury) in kind
intransitive senses : to return like for like; especially : to get revenge

Revenge
1 : to avenge (as oneself) usually by retaliating in kind or degree
2 : to inflict injury in return for <revenge an insult>

Defend
1 a : to drive danger or attack away from b (1) : to maintain or support in the face of argument or hostile criticism (2) : to prove (as a doctoral thesis) valid by answering questions in an oral exam c : to attempt to prevent an opponent from scoring at <elects to defend the south goal>
2 archaic : PREVENT, FORBID
3 : to act as attorney for
4 : to deny or oppose the right of a plaintiff in regard to (a suit or a wrong charged) : CONTEST
5 : to seek to retain (as a title or position) against a challenge in a contest
intransitive senses
1 : to take action against attack or challenge <couldn't fight back, could only defend>
2 : to play or be on defense <playing deep to defend against a pass>
3 : to play against the high bidder in a card game

I have never really considered the exact definition of these terms.   Do these change the way we are using them at all?

You got me, 2ndT.
I guess me an Meriam Webster (or maybe 'American Heritage') need to be a little closer to one another!   ;D

'Zilla - I beg your understanding of my sometimes lacking knowledge of the language I try to call my own.
 ;D

Does this mean we shouldn't whup-up on terrorists???  ???

God bless!
JN

As a nation, definitely not!  lol   Scripture clearly states that God uses governments as a channel for His justice and vengance.  As individual believers, I'm not sure.   I think that goes back to the moment I was talking about in my first reply.   I still think it comes down to the situation, and level of Grace we are willing to allow Christ to display through us.   If a gunman walked through my front door this evening, my first reaction would most certainly be a defensive one, however, should my reaction as a believer be one for myself, or one for Him?   BTW, I'm not arguing here, just stating my uncertanty about what I would do if push came to shove.

Defense is obviously necessary....but as Christians, where should we draw the line?

LOL!
I'm an extremely "well prepared" person for that possibilty.   ;D

But it is a dual readiness tool.  It enables me to both protect AND feed my family.  Call it a "constitutional crescent wrench."  It "adjusts" to the need at hand.  ;D

Having said that;
Dear Lord Jesus - we pray that the strength you have given us is used in Your name, for Your good.  We wish Your goodness to be bestowed on ALL men, and that Your sword be used to spare and protect rather than to take.  We love You, Jesus,  Your will be done. AMEN!

JN

I think this classifies as defense. Should we lower ourselves to their standards of tormenting a person once they have already been subdued and unable to harm us? This is the difference.

How far should we go in defending ourselves? There is a thing called "minimum force required to subdue". I think this is a pretty good rule of thumb. If a person comes in my house brandishing a gun I would not hesitate to take them out if at all possible. It would tare me up, I would feel bad that it had to come to that, but I would not regret having done it.

LOL   For some reason the movie Billy Jack (i think is the name) comes to mind, where He says hes really a nice guy and kind and all, but when he sees the indian girl degraded He just goes bizerk.   Love that movie!


"I'm gonna take my right foot, and hit you on the left side of your face, and theres not anything you're going to be able to do about it".   "Oh yeah?"  "Yeah"...whack!.....ROFL

Is that thought toward me??  ;) ;) :D :D  ME?? (I'll never tell.)

LOL ....  

I liked the Billy Jack movies also.

Why yes it was PR!  lol    

JudgeNot,

Brother, I've got that tool set.   ;D  ;D

I wonder if they are the same - mine has funny numbers and letters on them (i.e. 45, 9mm, 380, 870, 357, etc.).  :D  It's not a complete tool set, but it's more than a starter set.

My home looks lived in 24/7, and it is. If someone breaks into my home knowing there is probably someone home, they are already prepared to deal with whoever is home. They've already thought things over and made their minds up what to do in numerous scenarios, but so have I. I do trust in God to protect my family and I, but I know that I am one of the tools God has furnished for that purpose.

Brother, I believe in the prayer you posted 100%. There is no contradiction between the Bible and the defense of family. Some confuse torts or civil wrongs mentioned in the Bible as meaning that Christians should simply lay down for the slaughter should that time of extreme danger ever come.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Philippians 1:6  And I am convinced and sure of this very thing, that He Who began a good work in you will continue until the day of Jesus Christ [right up to the time of His return], developing [that good work] and perfecting and bringing it to full completion in you. (The Amplified Bible)

Brother Tom,

I don't have any tools with those numbers on them. I live in government housing for the moment and such is not allowed here. I do have many tools that God gave me and the Military taught me how to use them effectively. They will have to do for the time being.



Amen!

LOL...good one!

I don't have that tool set brother, but I wish I did.   I do have an alternative however.   Two Rottwheilers I affectionately refer to as Alfa and Omega  ;D  

Its a little deterrent I like to call the revelation effect, or prophetic wisdom  :D   Thus far, any would be trespassers have had the innate ability to see the immediate future from beginning to end, lest they repent....lol

2nd Timothy,

 ;D  Brother, I had to laugh about the dogs, mainly because I also have two dogs.

The biggest one is about 20 pounds, and they are both mutts.

One is 15 years old and is missing over half his teeth.

The other one is 16 years old and doesn't have a mean bone in his body.

Both of them must be close to being deaf because I can sneak up on them both, and they can sleep through almost anything.

They love my family unconditionally, and we've all done the best we could to return their love and give them a happy and well-cared for life.

They are really a pretty good example of the love that JESUS commands us to have, and the Love of JESUS is exactly what I'm thinking about right now. It makes me happy every time I think about JESUS, real Love, and the blessings of Love that JESUS has provided in my life. 1) JESUS; 2) My wife of 33 years; 3) My parents, children, grandchildren, and family; 4) My brothers and sisters in Christ.

On the other side of the coin is sadness in realizing how often I fail in the Love JESUS wants me to have for others. Especially, considering the many blessings that have been bestowed on my family and I by God. I'm certainly not talking about material riches, rather of spiritual blessings and Salvation for my entire family. We all belong to JESUS, so what more could I possibly want. Yet, I don't measure up even to my dogs in terms of love. All I know to do is pray.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Matthew 22:36-40  Teacher, which kind of commandment is great and important (the principal kind) in the Law? [Some commandments are light--which are heavy?]  And He replied to him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind (intellect). [Deut. 6:5.]  This is the great (most important, principal) and first commandment.     And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as [you do] yourself. [Lev. 19:18.]  These two commandments sum up and upon them depend all the Law and the Prophets. (The Amplified Bible)
 

You know Tom, I have felt the exact same way, as I am sure most Christians do at some time or other.   We truly are unworthy of His Love for us, but we are at the top of His agenda, and He Loves us more than we know.   That is the true definition of Grace I believe.  What Grace our Father has bestowed on us.   What an awesome God we serve!

Yes sir, Mr. BEP - my tools are marked similarly:
.44, .44, .44, 12 ga, .22, .306...

For some reason I just LOVE the number 44.  I wonder if that has biblical significance?  :)

(Oh - and I've got a little Gamo break-barrel .177 with 1250 fps muzzle velocity - it's actually one of my favorite tools.  It's soooo quiet!  Its the first tool I use for my fried rabbit recipe :) )

(Uh-oh - I hope this conversation doesn't upset our northern neighbors who have demonized such tools...)  :-X  SO: JUST FOR THE RECORD:  I am entirely legal, registered and fully trained and permitted.  ;)

JudgeNot,

When or if the terrorists mount an assault on our soil, I don't think they will like or appreciate us.  :D  There is a small army of older folks just in my neighborhood that are dangerous. In fact, I know quite a few grandmothers who would be dangerous if the terrorists started doing things to our children and grandchildren like they do in Israel. It would not be pretty. I might add that I'm afraid to cross grandma.  :D

I'm reminded of "Granny Get Your Gun".

My Grandmother was an Appalachian Hill Folk. She kept a loaded shotgun next to her bed at all times and had a cupboard full of guns and ammo. I never crossed her.

 :-\ :-X