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February 12, 2003

From Back To The Bible:
Notice the Date
http://www.backtothebible.org/ (http://www.backtothebible.org/)


by Dr. Woodrow Kroll - President and Bible Teacher

Unless you've been living in a cave the last few months, you are painfully aware that war with Iraq looms larger every day. Even if our European allies (who rarely agree with each other, let alone with the US) do not join Great Britain, Poland, the USA and others in disarming Saddam Hussein, it appears increasingly likely that within days or weeks we could again be at war with Iraq.

How are Christians to view this possibility? Should we gladly seek war to punish the atrocities of this tyrannical madman (after all, Saddam didn't hesitate to use chemical weapons against the Iranians or even against his own people)? Should we sit idly by and wait for the United Nations, which seems both inept and inert, to act?

One thing is certain. We should have no illusions about the behavior or intentions of the Iraqi government. Saddam Hussein and the Iraqi leadership have behaved badly and the regime must stop its internal repression, it must cease to be a constant threat to its neighbors, it must denounce terrorism and stop supporting terrorists, it must abandon its program to develop weapons of mass destruction, and it must destroy all such existing weapons. The UN Security Council has demanded these actions and Iraq has thumbed it's nose at that demand. Our genuine, heartfelt and urgent prayer is that Saddam will be removed from power and war will be averted, but that appears unlikely.

The issue is not really what we think but what is just. Does going to war with Saddam Hussein fit the criteria of justice? The idea of a "just war" is as old as warfare itself. The Bible even hints at ethical behavior in war and the concepts of fighting for a just cause, but the most systematic treatment of a just war in antiquity belongs to Thomas Aquinas. In his Summa Theologicae Aquinas outlined what is now considered to be "just war" theory. He not only discussed the justification for war but what activities were permissible in fighting a just war.

From Thomas Aquinas and later writers, these principles have become accepted as "the rules of engagement" for a war that is justified:

    Principles of the Just War

    * A just war can only be waged as a last resort, after reasonable attempts to bring justice have been exhausted.
    * A just war can only be waged by a legitimate authority. People, vigilantes, terrorists do not wage just wars; only a legitimate government is permitted to wage a war that can be considered justified.
    * A just war can only be fought to redress wrongs that have been committed. A first strike attack on a nation that has committed no atrocities cannot be considered justice; that's aggression.
    * A just war can only be fought with "right" intentions. War is not justified to gain control of another nation, it's assets or it's people. If the right intention for going to war is not present, justice is not present.
    * A just war can only be fought if there is a reasonable chance of success. Deaths and injury incurred in a hopeless cause are not morally justifiable.
    * A just war can only be fought if the ultimate goal is to re-establish peace. More specifically, war is not justified if the situation in a country cannot be reasonably expected to be better after the war than before.
    * A just war must never allow the force used to be disproportional to the need. Nations must be prohibited from using force not necessary to attain the limited objective of addressing the wrongs that have been committed.
    * A just war must employ weapons and tactics that discriminate between combatants and non-combatants. Innocent civilians are never permissible targets of war, and war can only be just if every effort is made to avoid civilian casualties.

     Secretary Rumsfeld
Secretary Rumsfeld

When you look at these criteria, the United States seems to have a pretty strong case to stop the threat that Saddam Hussein poses to humanity, especially his own people. The US Government is a legitimate authority and does not bear the sword in vain (Romans 13:4). Besides, Psalm 82:4 commands us to "Deliver the poor and needy; free them from the hand of the wicked." As long as the intention of war with Iraq is to redress wrongs and not to acquire the assets of the country, and as long as required inspection for banned weapons is repeatedly rebuffed, I believe war with Saddam Hussein is both legitimate and just.

===================See Page 2

February 12, 2003

From Back To The Bible:
Notice the Date
http://www.backtothebible.org/ (http://www.backtothebible.org/)


Hussein has shown himself to be an evil dictator. He has consistently lied about his chemical and biological weapons program. He has been less than forthcoming when pressed by the UN weapons inspectors, both after the Persian Gulf War and in advance of this one. He has brutally murdered untold Iraqis who have dared to resist him. These facts are indisputable. Without question he fits the description that the Church Father Augustine gave of those who are rightly condemned and against whom war is justifiably waged: "The passion for inflicting harm, the cruel thirst for vengeance, an unpacific and relentless spirit, the fever of revolt, the lust of power, and such like things, all these are rightly condemned in war." (Contra Faust. xxii, 74).

What Godly People Do During Ghastly Wars

Let's face it. None of us wants war. Many of you have family and friends who have been called up to fight in this potential conflict. You and I both wish they were back home today, safe and sound. But that's not the case. And, in the reality of life and death, as much as we hate it to admit it, we know down deep in our hearts that if war with Iraq materializes, some of our family and friends will not come back. War is ghastly. It takes our best men and women, but it takes them in justifiable causes - justice, humanity, freedom from oppression, the right to live without repression.

We hate war, but we hate injustice more. So here are some things you can do whether you have loved ones in the Persian Gulf or not.

First, examine your own attitudes. There are many good people who believe that all war is wrong, that no war is ever justified. Most Christians do not agree, but we respect their beliefs and feelings. You must examine your own attitudes and before God come to your own conclusions. Remember, the enemy is not the person who disagrees with you; the enemy is a maniacal murderer.

Second, if you feel that war as the last resort may be justified in certain cases, and you believe the atrocities committed by Saddam Hussein is one of those cases, be supportive of your President, Premier or national leader. Write your Senator or Congressman. Express your beliefs, whatever they may be. That's a privilege of a democratic society, but rarely are unpopular decisions like this one supported by letters or e-mails.

Third, discuss these things in your small group at church. It's important for others to have the benefit of your thinking. Some in your group may never have grappled with these issues before. Whatever your conclusions, help others to come to their own by providing an arena for biblical discussion, respectful of disagreement and bathed in the unity of the faith and the love of the Lord.

Fourth, spend some extra time each day in God's Word. The strength that comes from reading His Word will never come from reading the headlines in the newspaper. God reassures us in His Word, He guides us in His Word, He teaches us in His Word. There's power, comfort, encouragement and hope in the Bible. Don't be a stranger to these when you need them the most.

Finally, talk to God about it. Especially if you have friends and family who may have to participate in any conflict with Iraq, don't fail to keep them before the Lord in prayer. Look how often in the Bible when God's people went to war others stayed behind and prayed. Both tasks were important. And don't forget to pray for those who bear the burden of knowing they had to make the decisions that sent troops off to war. If troops invade Baghdad and weapons are found, or worse, Saddam uses them on the troops, the American people will say, "Bush was right" and they'll forget about it the next day. But if the troops die, no one will forget it. War is a lose-lose situation for presidents too. The President needs your prayerful support.

What will Back to the Bible do if there is war with Iraq? We'll be on the air, on the Internet and in every other medium we can use to bring the message of hope to all who fear, the message of comfort to all who grieve, and the message of salvation to all who will listen. Your gifts and your prayers have brought us to this point; they will carry us into the future as we increase our efforts during the days of war.

Don't hesitate to e-mail your prayer request to us. We'll pray for you and your loved ones. We appreciate your support; we want to support you too!

God bless you,

Dr. Woodrow Kroll
President and Bible Teacher

An excellant Biblical stance on government and war. Thank you Brother for posting this so that I could see it again.

Why war over this "maniac" known as Saddam Hussein? While we ignore other maniacs who are threatening us with nuclear weapons.

ollie

Saddam Hussein was dealt with for well over a decade before we took him out.


As for those that are threatening us with nuclear warfare not only should the above apply but also:

Hi,

I see we have all been reading up on our Carl Von Clauswitz!
I have only one small bone to pick here.

While I really enjoyed the letter by the good doctor, its positions and assertions, upon which he bases his final conclusions are a touch dated.

By this, I am refering to all of the talk of Sadam's weapons porgrams and links to Osama.  In the months since the war, these initial reasons for attacking Iraq were shown to be quite bogus.  I also think quite a large debate could be waged on the use of the Clauswitzian theories that he uses, and their interpretations.

In all, I thought the writing was quite good, and it came at the topic from a very honest place.  Unfortunately, seeing as someof his initial points, that are presented therein as fact, are in actuallity, not fact, one can no longer take his conclusions at total face value.

cheers,

Jimmy

 ??? ??? ??? ???

I saw no where that Woodrow Kroll stated that Saddam was linked to Osama. He did mention that Saddam supported terrorism, which he did. As for the weapons program there is evidence that he was attempting to gain weapons such as nuclear and chemical capability and proven that he did have chemical warfare before and was not hesitant to use it.

Any similarities to Carl Von Clauswitz is purely coincidental.

Dr. Woodrow Kroll is president and senior Bible teacher for the international media ministry "Back to the Bible". Dr. Kroll based his "Principles of the Just War" on a Biblical basis. Concepts that existed long before Carl Von Clauswitz was even born.

PR,

Thanks for your reply!

I'm not sure that the evidence of Iraqi supported terrorism is quite as mounting as you might like it to be.  I have to problem saying that Husein was an evil person, or that he did terrible things to his own people.  I do however, take issue with the notion that he somehow posed a grave threat to the U.S. homeland.

It is also true that he probably did have some chemical weapons, but Ronald Regan sold him those, so I'm not really sure who is to blame for that.

I think the sooner we all aknowledge that Iraq was invaded, and is now being occupied for political reasons, and not national security one's, the sooner we'll all be able to move on, and deal with the issue more effectively

cheers,

Jimmy

That is the same thing that was said about Hitler before he started invading other countries. It was not until he took control of many countries that people finally opened their eyes to that threat.

Saddam was a threat not only to the U.S. but to the whole world. Most people are either to blind or their ego's are so inflated that they thought he could not harm them. There was much about the man and his family that does not get media attention because most of the media wants us to look like the bad guys picking on the little guy.

Hello JimmySwift,

I disagree strongly. I, for one, am very happy that we are fighting terrorists in Iraq instead of on our own soil. That time may come yet if we don't keep the terrorists busy enough on their own turf. In the meantime, the folks in North America can give thanks to our armed forces and to God for the safety we enjoy.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 8:1-3  THEREFORE, [there is] now no condemnation (no adjudging guilty of wrong) for those who are in Christ Jesus, who live [and] walk not after the dictates of the flesh, but after the dictates of the Spirit. [John 3:18.]  For the law of the Spirit of life [which is] in Christ Jesus [the law of our new being] has freed me from the law of sin and of death.  For God has done what the Law could not do, [its power] being weakened by the flesh [the entire nature of man without the Holy Spirit]. Sending His own Son in the guise of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, [God] condemned sin in the flesh [subdued, overcame, deprived it of its power over all who accept that sacrifice], [Lev. 7:37.]  (The Amplified Bible)

Pastor Roger,

I would have thought that the invasion of Kuwait and a decade or more of defying the free world on weapons inspections would help even the ultra-liberals to sense some form of danger from Iraq. Add all of the other factors and the real question should be why the free world waited so long.

I've read various estimates about how many innocent people were murdered by Saddam, and I don't know which sources to believe. It ranges from 300,000 to up in the single digit millions. He was a Hitler, even without any information that's been brought into question.

There's also still a lot we don't know. BUT, there's also a lot of known information that won't be published for years. In short, I think it was real nice of the terrorists of this world to make themselves available in Iraq. It's a real change for them to face armed professionals instead of innocent women and children for once. However, the terrorists are going back to their old ways as we speak. They are too cowardly to face armed professionals for long.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 12:1  I APPEAL to you therefore, brethren, and beg of you in view of [all] the mercies of God, to make a decisive dedication of your bodies [presenting all your members and faculties] as a living sacrifice, holy (devoted, consecrated) and well pleasing to God, which is your reasonable (rational, intelligent) service and spiritual worship. (The Amplified Bible)

Hi all,

I don't know whos idea it was to beat this old donkey again, but apparently some ppl across the pond ( hey, both from africa and Europe to the US it's still the same ocean :) ) are having their second thought. Among them are mr. pat robertson, that plainly states that lies and untruths brought the US to Iraq, nevertheless he is convinced that even though the reasons/arguments to start the war were invalid ( remember mr. powell before the UN  ) the 'coalition' should stay in Iraq.

I my view with the US active in the middle east region, it is fullfilling prophecy; wether I do or do not agree with it. The word of God will be fullfilled;

Mat 24:35  Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

For more info regarding the truth and lies of the bush administration, timelines and more stuff that the mainstream media & your local senator does not want you to know please head to :

http://www.downingstreetmemo.com/

well documented timelines on http://www.downingstreetmemo.com/whycare.html

Hello TwoBombs,

Brother, it's great to see you back on the forum. It was my idea to revive this old thread after reading some articles that tend to discourage and bash the men and women serving in Iraq.

YES! - I also think that Iraq is part of Bible Prophecy, and I firmly believe that no man, country, international organization, or power in the universe can slow or hasten God's appointed time to fulfill Bible Prophecy. Iraq being part of the end of the age of Grace events is logical, but I don't make such claims, as that's God's Business.

I, for one, support the war in Iraq 100%, and I'm very proud of the men and women fighting there, not only for peace and freedom for the people of Iraq, but for peace and preserved freedom for the free world. None of them died in vain, and the fight is a just one.

I have no desire to rehash world politics, but I do have a strong desire to thank those who have fought and are fighting in Iraq. Not a single drop of sweat or blood was in vain. If Iraq is or isn't part of the fulfillment of Bible Prophecy, that's really not material to me. What is material to me is that the terrorists are being engaged there and not here. I firmly believe that every second the terrorists are kept busy on their own turf is a second they won't be killing innocents in free countries. YES! - I do firmly believe that our armed forces in Iraq are preserving our freedom and safety at home. That's on top of liberating the people of Iraq.

I'm not a war lover, but I firmly believe that the war in Iraq is just and necessary.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Ephesians 1:7-9  In Him we have redemption (deliverance and salvation) through His blood, the remission (forgiveness) of our offenses (shortcomings and trespasses), in accordance with the riches and the generosity of His gracious favor, Which He lavished upon us in every kind of wisdom and understanding (practical insight and prudence), Making known to us the mystery (secret) of His will (of His plan, of His purpose). [And it is this:] In accordance with His good pleasure (His merciful intention) which He had previously purposed and set forth in Him,
(The Amplified Bible)

Is War with Iraq justified?:

As with many I suppose, I have often dealt with the question of war as a Christian. I remember the story of Sgt. York and ponder if I should participate in active duty with the military when I deem a certain conflict worthy, as WW2 for example.  Then I concider what I should so if the war seems questionable, as the Vietnam conflict.  As a man I wonder what I would do if a time came that I had to decide to join the military and be confronted with the consequences of not doing so (concerning the views of my peers, family, national feeling, ect.).  Upon that I must then concider, "what does God, as a Christian, expect me to do"?  Not an easy question, and one every Christian must deal with.  It's difficult for the non-Christian.  If I deal with this question as a man, I will choose a natural path--that may be for or against.  But being a Christian by New Birth I have to concider the call of Christ.  Should the Christian, I, participate in war?  
        This may seem off the question, but only by understanding that the Christain is not any longer a national citizen, but a son of God and of His Kingdom, can we answer the question asked.
         Who goes to war anyway?  Governments, not the Church of God (not refering here to the Catholic Church).  What is the Church to do in the event of war?  I know one thing She must do, nothing that is contrary to the commands of God.  Can I be a Christian and a Soldier?  Yes.  But will my participation as a soldier hinder the cause of Christ in this world and/or my participation His eternital kingdom?  
       The natural man says, If a war is justifiable I will do everything to fight the nation's enemy.  The Christian is accountable otherwise.  I must know what God requires of me as a son, rather than doing what I feel I should as a man (or as others expect).  We are the Church as individuals.  
        Should we ponder for a little while, "What justifies the Church being in this world today and what role will we play as Christians while in it"?  I do not think that we Christians realize the present and eternal consequenses of our decisions here and now.  Jesus never took a position of arms.  What did He do instead?  What should I, will I, do???  What does Jesus call justifiable?  We have Brethren [out] of all nationalities.  
           

Cottondale,

I see this is your first post, so WELCOME!! to Christians Unite.


The mightiest warrior of all time will be coming back soon, and HE will wield a terrible swift sword against evil. HIS name is JESUS CHRIST! - our Living Lord and Saviour! - very GOD!

There was a time about 2,000 years ago that HE was made manifest in the flesh for the Salvation of mankind. There is no irony that most of HIS followers wore swords. There is also no irony that most of the mightiest warriors of all time were and are God's children. BUT, none will compare to the LORD OF HOSTS!

I have no doubt at all that God has sent judgment upon evil throughout the ages, and there will be a time of final judgment at God's appointed time. I also have no doubt at all that God has used Christian warriors throughout the ages, even now. We can also read of Biblical instructions about authority, but I certainly understand the confusion. No Christian loves war.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Revelation 19:11-16  After that I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse [appeared]! The One Who was riding it is called Faithful (Trustworthy, Loyal, Incorruptible, Steady) and True, and He passes judgment and wages war in righteousness (holiness, justice, and uprightness). [Ezek. 1:1.]  His eyes [blaze] like a flame of fire, and on His head are many kingly crowns (diadems); and He has a title (name) inscribed which He alone knows or can understand. [Dan. 10:6.]  He is dressed in a robe dyed by dipping in blood, and the title by which He is called is The Word of God.  And the troops of heaven, clothed in fine linen, dazzling and clean, followed Him on white horses.  From His mouth goes forth a sharp sword with which He can smite (afflict, strike) the nations; and He will shepherd and control them with a staff (scepter, rod) of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fierceness of the wrath and indignation of God the All-Ruler (the Almighty, the Omnipotent). [Ps. 2:9.]  And on His garment (robe) and on His thigh He has a name (title) inscribed, KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. [Deut. 10:17; Dan. 2:47.]  (The Amplified Bible)
 

Amen, BEP.
The numbers of souls reaped by the terrible swift sword is uncountable... (except by HIM)

Welcome Cottondale!

JN

Hi BEP,

Thanks for your reply!

I noticed that you mentioned fighting terrorism on Iraqi soil as opposed to fighting it in the U.S.  

Let me say, I agree 100% !  However, I think that goes to prove my point.  In my initial post I mentioned that I did not think the Iraq war was ever about any high-minded humanitarian goals, nor was it about WMD's.  It was entirely based on geo-politics.  I think the does somewhat sully the motivations for invading another country.

Supporting the current actions in Iraq is another thing all together.  I wholeheartedly support the men and women of the armed forces that are fighting in Iraq today.  I think the greatest tragedy that could come of all of this mess-opotamia would be for the allied forces to pull-out too soon, and leave the Iraqi people with a total lack of infastructure or governance.  Ditto with Afghanistan

cheers,

Jimmy

Hello JimmySwift,

I really only have two things to say:

1 - We disagree. We are probably on different sides on many issues, and that's no problem at all for me.

2 - I give thanks that you don't make the decisions for the leadership of my country. That same person was elected once before and once after the war in Iraq. If I was young enough and healthy enough, I would gladly serve in Iraq.

Most generally, those who have EVER placed their lives on the line for INNOCENTS don't criticize those who do. Armchair philosophers who have never served anyone but themselves derive their freedom and safety to speak from those who do shed their blood, sweat, and tears for others - APPRECIATED OR NOT. I, for one, appreciate them greatly, but I've never been an armchair philosopher.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Ephesians 3:20  Now to Him Who, by (in consequence of) the [action of His] power that is at work within us, is able to [carry out His purpose and] do superabundantly, far over and above all that we [dare] ask or think [infinitely beyond our highest prayers, desires, thoughts, hopes, or dreams]--  (The Amplified Bible)

Hi BEP,

Thanks for your reply!

I also give thanks that I don't have to make decisions for the leadership of your country.  

I'm not sure where the shift in your tone has come from though.  I certainly didn't mean to anger you in any way.  It would seem as though we have misunderstood one another.  your comment: "Most generally, those who have EVER placed their lives on the line for INNOCENTS don't criticize those who do. "  seems to indicate that.

I thouhgt I made it clear that I ageed with you in terms of the current U.S. role in Iraq and Afghanistan in my last post.  I have nothing but the uttmost is respect for the men and women currently engaged therein.  I thought that was made clear when I wrote:" I wholeheartedly support the men and women of the armed forces that are fighting in Iraq today."

As far as critique is concerned, my issue and hence critisism is not for Sgt. Smith somewhere in the Persian Gulf, that would be silly and misdirected.  My doubts are for George W. Bush, who has never "put his life on the line for innocents", unless you count occasionally flying a plane, defending Texas against the Veit Kong.

Its true BEP, that we are probably on different sides of a few coins, but I think that's great!  That's why we live in the best part of the world don't you think?

cheers,

Jimmy

Hello JimmySwift,

There is no change in tone, and my feelings about your replies on this issue have been the same from your first post above.

Let's have a little thinking exercise here, and you tell me what your conclusions are.

Let's say that you wish to express your appreciation and/or respect to:

One who is serving right now in Iraq;

One who has returned from serving in Iraq;

One who is recovering from wounds suffered in Iraq;

A family who has lost a loved one in Iraq.
______________________________

Would you relay any of your above quotes to them?

Do you think that they hear quotes like your quotes?

How do you think they feel when they hear quotes like your quotes?

Surely you don't think that quotes like your quotes makes them feel appreciated - do you?

Are you telling the families who lost loved ones that the death of their son or daughter was for nothing?

Are you telling the folks who made all kinds of sacrifices, including body parts, that it was all for nothing?
__________________________

JimmySwift, you can't have it two directly opposed ways at the same time. You can't tell the Sgt. Smiths in Iraq (living, dead, wounded) how much you appreciate what they are doing and make the above quotes at the same time. It's like throwing dirt in the face of Sgt. Smith and his/her family. Whether you realize it or not, that is exactly how they feel. I'm only one of many who DON'T LIKE IT!!!!!! when someone throws dirt in Sgt. Smith's face.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Philippians 1:21  For me to live is Christ [His life in me], and to die is gain [the gain of the glory of eternity]. (The Amplified Bible)

Hi Blackeyedpeas, Cottondale & all

Maybe my views are counted as a minority, or incomplete.

The war in Iraq is, once again according to my perception, in prophecy, and we've spoken about that in previous days.

In my perception was the second world war nessecary to bring about the Jewish state, the same that Sharon is giving away now in the name of "Peace and Safety". The same is in connection with the war in Iraq as Mr. G. Bush has indicated clearly that US troops are giving their lives on an everyday base for the "Security" of Israel; forcing the leaves that grew in the summer of this Godgiven state to fall (off).

Once again stuff that i've covered before (see posting, autumn in Israel)

If anyone asked me to summarise the situation then it would be this:

Isa 28:15  Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with Sheol are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us; for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

1Th 5:3  When they are saying, Peace and safety, then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall in no wise escape.

Hi BEP,

Thanks for your reply!

I can certainly appreciate where you are comming form on this issue.  I don't like it when people throw dirt in the faces of soldiers either, it's just not very polite; plus, when sand gets in your eyes!  yikes. that stings!

That's why I make a concerted effort not to do that, and focus my critique of the Iraq situation where I feel it belongs.  

I really don't think you're appreciating the difference here.  According to your logic, no-one should ever protest the use of military force, because to do so, would be some kind of insult to the men and women in uniform!  That just doesn't make any sense.

I'll restate my view on the matter.  I have the uttmost in respect for the men and women who are sacrificing daily, both in Iraq and Afghanistan.  The nation building work that they are currently undertaking is an important duty.  I do however wish, that they sent under more honest ospices.

cheers,

Jimmy

Hello TwoBombs,

I am reflecting on numerous very lengthy and difficult studies about Bible Prophecy. I think the Scriptures you quoted speak volumes, and they alone would be a lengthy study. I think that I understand the context you intended in the quoting of those two Scriptures.

When the Day of the LORD comes, Israel and the world will bear the wrath of God. The intent of the nations will make no difference at all, and there obviously won't be a hiding place on the face of the earth.

I can't remember if we differ on the Rapture of the Church or not, but if we do it means nothing in our fellowship. I believe the CHURCH will be Raptured before wrath is poured out on the world. If I'm wrong, I still belong to JESUS and HE is LORD over my life. I don't say that I don't fear death, but I do say that I don't fear death like those without JESUS do.

Mixing the CHURCH and Israel is what confuses many. It's a mystery to many why Christians would defend and support Israel when they are known for rejecting Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour. Bible Prophecy makes it absolutely clear that God is not through with Israel. Israel will be judged and purified, but Israel will also be an instrument used by God against other nations. How the born again Christian fits into the time of wrath depends on what one believes about the Rapture of the Church.

We know by Bible Prophecy that those who go against Israel will be cursed and destroyed. Israel will be restored. We also know that Jesus Christ Himself will rule and reign over the earth from the Throne of David in Jerusalem for 1,000 years.

My covenant with God involves the law of faith in Jesus Christ. My Promises that are my hope will be fulfilled at God's appointed time, regardless of whether I physically live or die before that time. There are some in Israel that share that same Promise.

Brother, I really don't remember how we differ, if any. I do remember that we share the same Eternal Promise of God. Differing on Bible Prophecy obviously won't effect our Salvation.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 3:21-27  But now the righteousness of God has been revealed independently and altogether apart from the Law, although actually it is attested by the Law and the Prophets,  Namely, the righteousness of God which comes by believing with personal trust and confident reliance on Jesus Christ (the Messiah). [And it is meant] for all who believe. For there is no distinction, Since all have sinned and are falling short of the honor and glory which God bestows and receives. [All] are justified and made upright and in right standing with God, freely and gratuitously by His grace (His unmerited favor and mercy), through the redemption which is [provided] in Christ Jesus,   Whom God put forward [before the eyes of all] as a mercy seat and propitiation by His blood [the cleansing and life-giving sacrifice of atonement and reconciliation, to be received] through faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in His divine forbearance He had passed over and ignored former sins without punishment. It was to demonstrate and prove at the present time (in the now season) that He Himself is righteous and that He justifies and accepts as righteous him who has [true] faith in Jesus. Then what becomes of [our] pride and [our] boasting? It is excluded (banished, ruled out entirely). On what principle? [On the principle] of doing good deeds? No, but on the principle of faith.  (The Amplified Bible)

Romans 8:1-2  THEREFORE, [there is] now no condemnation (no adjudging guilty of wrong) for those who are in Christ Jesus, who live [and] walk not after the dictates of the flesh, but after the dictates of the Spirit. [John 3:18.]  For the law of the Spirit of life [which is] in Christ Jesus [the law of our new being] has freed me from the law of sin and of death.  (The Amplified Bible)

Hello JimmySwift,

I believe the purpose of the Iraq war was just and honest, regardless of what was learned later about the still disputed WMD. I believe the truth of the WMD will eventually be found out and revealed. Regardless, there was a ruthless butcher to deal with who was a lit fuse on a time bomb for that area of the world. Very few will deny that there was a time bomb there that represented a threat to the peace and security of the world. Mass murder approaching Hitler style is also impossible to deny. We probably differ on at least part of the above, and that's fine.

Yes, we differ on war protests also. I probably have too much of an idealistic view on this. The debates should occur first, and they did for over 10 years. When the decision has been made and our men and women are committed, it is time for the entire country to get behind them and stay behind them until they are brought home. We probably differ on this also, but that's fine. I apologize if I sounded to harsh on my last post to you, but it is the truth about how our armed forces and their families feel. It would not be reasonable for them to feel otherwise.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 8:28  We are assured and know that [God being a partner in their labor] all things work together and are [fitting into a plan] for good to and for those who love God and are called according to [His] design and purpose. (The Amplified Bible)

Hi Blackeyedpeas,

Yes we differ, as you believe in the separation of the Jew from the rest of the World (gentile) where I see none;

Rom 10:11  For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be put to shame.
Rom 10:12  For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek: for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich unto all that call upon him:
Rom 10:13  for, Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

So, as it is written above, there is a prophetical importance for it; there is no separation, or secret rapture according to my/this view.

Do I believe we're going through the whole 7 year trib ? No, because of :

Mar 13:19  For those days shall be tribulation, such as there hath not been the like from the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never shall be.
Mar 13:20  And except the Lord had shortened the days, no flesh would have been saved; but for the elect's sake, whom he chose, he shortened the days.

as in:

Gen 45:5  And now be not grieved, nor angry with yourselves, that ye sold me hither: for God did send me before you to preserve life.
Gen 45:6  For these two years hath the famine been in the land: and there are yet five years, in which there shall be neither plowing nor harvest.
Gen 45:7  And God sent me before you to preserve you a remnant in the earth, and to save you alive by a great deliverance.

As my footer declares for more then 3 years now I have reasons to believe ( almost every season 1 more is added ) that the start of Jacobs trouble is an apponted time, starting with a major, major solar eclipse as prophecied. ( see below )

To make such statements is like saying "I support the troops, but I don't support what the troops are doing". You cannot separate the two. The Iraq situation is what the troops are and have been doing. Once our troops became involved it is time to put differences about the situation aside and give our troops full support. To do otherwise places doubt in the minds of the troops of what they are doing, it causes caos amongst them, it causes good Soldiers and Sailors to get killed. It gives the enemy courage to continue with what they are doing.

This is what happened in Viet Nam. North Viet Nam was about to give up but because of the protests in the U.S. they continued and many people were killed because of it.

Hello Again TwoBombs,

I think that you might have misunderstood something I said about Israel. I simply know that the CHURCH which is the BODY of CHRIST is not Israel, but many Jews are saved and belong to the CHURCH. I also know that Daniel's Prophecy deals with Israel and Daniel knew nothing about the CHURCH which is the BODY OF CHRIST. It was a mystery not made known to Daniel. So, I think that a reasonable conclusion regards Daniel's 70 Weeks, including Jacob's Trouble, as referring to Israel, not the CHURCH. I'm fully aware that there are many varying opinions, but I don't think any Christian should allow differences of this type to cause division.

Regarding Mark 13, I believe that is referring to the people who are saved during the Tribulation Period.

Regarding brothers and sisters in Christ, there is no difference at all between Jews and and any other saved person. We are and will be one in Christ for eternity.

If you believe that God is through dealing with Israel, we definitely differ. Regardless, I appreciate your link, and I always enjoy studying your material on Bible Prophecy. I bookmarked it, but I'm too tired right now to enjoy it. Thanks.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Ephesians 1:10  [He planned] for the maturity of the times and the climax of the ages to unify all things and head them up and consummate them in Christ, [both] things in heaven and things on the earth. (The Amplified Bible)

As I read through these posts many things came to mind; some probably belonging in a separate thread.  Feel free to move whatever to wherever.

I thought about our wonderful America being so very blessed by God.  Has any nation in recorded history ever been so blessed?  Why?  She was set upon a firm foundation, God.  Some may forget this, or dismiss it altogether, and that's too bad.  We really need to be mindful of it.  America has laid down her life, many times, for her brother.  Will all agree?  No, we won't.  What bothers me is that Christian's are supposed to have the mind of Christ.  If we have the mind of Christ, how can we disagree with one another?  Jesus and His Father were always in agreement.  Yes, they were One and the same, but aren't we supposed to be, also?  Or, won't we be until we live in eternity?  It reminds me of the verse, "when we see Him, we will be like Him."  I would suppose, since we are all learning and not unified yet, that it must be ok to disagree and still fellowship.  Could any of us possibly imagine any other way?  Surely, unity means agreement of minds, in all things, just like Jesus.  It doesn't look like that can ever happen on this earth, does it?

Now, for my other observation.  I'll address this to BEP.  Some months ago a poster came to CU.  One of his posts caused me to ask the following question:  If Christ is the head, and we, the Church, are His body, then how can the Head marry the body?"  It doesn't make sense to me. It sounds as if the marriage supper of the Lamb is Christ and Israel.  We, who are born again, already belong to Him.  Wouldn't the marriage supper of the Lamb be Jesus and His body, the Church, (being one already) to Israel?  It seems to make more sense to me but it may be because I've missed something.  What are your thoughts about what I said?

Also, regarding brothers and sisters in Christ, there is no difference between Jews and gentiles, races, nationalities, etc.  We are, or will be one in Christ, in and for, eternity.  However, there is a difference between the aforementioned, if they are not in Christ.  So, it seems as if there are two distinct groups...............the have and the have not's.  I realize that last phrase isn't usually used in this respect, but it's applicable here, don't you think?  One either has Christ or he doesn't.  No grey areas here. "Let your yes be yes and your no be no."  

Grace and peace,
cris

Thanks Tom,

My understanding of the Gospels compared with the time of the Exodus through the kings of Israel is that Jesus and His teachings presented a new commandment.  Israel rejected their Messiah.  The New Covenant was established with the Gentiles--one that will also become of force with Israel with the Coming of Christ future.  Since you and I and all saints belong no longer to a nation in spiritual reality by new birth and are citizens of the Kingdom of God in Heaven (this Paul establishes in Eph. and other epistles), we have a Governor who is the Lord Jesus in Heaven.  That Kingdom is not presently an arms kingdom but a spiritual one, "else [Jesus'] disciples would fight" as our Lord replied to Pilate.  Therefore, there is no instructions given to the Christian to join a government in arms against another government.  The world indeed does and always will fight each other till Jesus returns--then, at that time, there will be Absolute rule by Him with an Iron Rod against all opposers, just as your reference tell.  
     Do you see no distinction between God's way with the Church and His purpose and that of the Old Testament?  God warred against His foes through Israel.  Today God sends the Church to proclaim the Gospel.  Therein I do not find a place for the Saved to participate in any governments war as a soldier.  I would appreciate a doctrinal mandate or instruction concerning what justifies the Saint to become a soldier based upon the New Testament.  This is a touchy subject but one that every Christian must find God's truth concerning.   If I act as a Natural Man (i.e., unsaved) then I will not be a Christian according to the New Testament--saved by grace, yes, obedient to the New Testament call upon the saint in this world, no.  I simply find no direction for the saved person voluntarily becoming a soldier.  I find for myself that the NT does not permit me to become a soldier while I follow Christ and His Purpose in this world presently.  Others will disagree, but based upon what NT principle?  To follow Christ is not easy.  It is easy to receive His grace, for that costs me nothing.  To be a Christian is costly however.

Hi Cottondale,

There is nowhere that we are commanded to be a Soldier other than a Soldier of Jesus Christ. Nor are we commanded to be a Janitor, a carpenter, an electrician, a Police Officer, Fireman, Store Clerk, a Box Boy or anything else of this nature. Nor does it command us not to do so.

In Luke chapter 3 Soldiers asked John what they should do. He did not tell them not to be a Soldier.




Col 3:17  And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

Hello Sister Chris,

I enjoyed your post and easily noted the truth about different opinions on issues between brothers and sisters in Christ. In this life, our differences are real, but we are still one in Christ. Our common love of JESUS as LORD over our lives should be more than enough for us to have fellowship.

I would simply note that born again children of God should never let differences of opinion be a bar to fellowship in this short life. Our old nature in the flesh is what causes our differences, NOT GOD, and God will rid us completely of this stumbling block at His appointed time.. I think that we should all recognize that pretty easily. There will come a time when our old nature and thoughts in the flesh are gone forever, and our petty differences during this short life will mean nothing. All of the tags and labels of man will be gone, and we will truly be ONE IN CHRIST for eternity. We are to strive for the Unity of the Spirit and the Bond of Peace in this short life, but we will all fall short.

Sister, you asked me about the Bride of Christ, and I did a brief study for you. I placed it in General Theology under "The Bride of Christ". My health is not very good right now, so I hope that I didn't make any mistakes. However, I know there are much more complete studies on the forum already if you want more information.

Love in Christ,
Tom

John 1:1-5  MKJV  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not overtake it.

Hello Cottondale,

I was a Christian police officer for 25 years and a soldier before that, but that doesn't mean that I don't respect the thoughts of those who have a Biblical conviction against violence.

I didn't say that I understood that Biblical conviction, but I do respect it. In a broad Biblical picture, it is impossible to ignore the teaching that God places authority, and we are to render unto Caesar. America makes that pretty easy for all Christians, as we have a conscientious objector status. Many in that status in prior conflicts served in many vital roles that our armed forces could not have functioned without, and the same is true today. Hosts of Christians have served in all functions, including conscientious objectors. They might be cooks, medics, and a list of other vital functions. I don't make fun of them or look down on them at all, but I would be less than truthful if I said that I understand completely.

As an individual, I find it unreasonable to assume that God lets evil go unchecked in New Testament times. I firmly believe that he still uses individuals and nations for His Will and Purpose against evil. For the most simple example, I like to think of my own family, children, and grandchildren. I do trust God to watch over them, but I believe I am one of the tools he uses for their safety. I do not believe it to be Biblical for me to stand and do nothing while someone is harming or killing my family. However, I don't make fun of those who believe the opposite. I just don't understand them.

I have many thoughts about Christians who do place their lives on the line for the defense of others. In short, I would consider them to be the most likely to perform their duties honestly, without excessive force, and with morals that only God can give. As an individual, I would prefer that police officers and soldiers to be Christians for these reasons and many more. Please let me repeat one more time that I don't look down on Christians who don't want to serve by taking life. I didn't want to take life as a police officer, but I was prepared to without any conflict at all.

I hope that part of this made sense.

Love In Christ,
Tom

1 Corinthians 2:1-2  MKJV  And I, brothers, when I came to you, did not come with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring to you the testimony of God.  For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

Hi Cris, BEP & others,

cris:

Rev 21:3  And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold,
the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them,
and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them,
and be their God.

So here revelation clearly states that the new jerusalem is the bride.

In *my* view the best defense for the whole church-bride thing comes
from Solomon, and I just don't buy it, like the pretrib thing.
I know a lot of people beg to differ, and this part of the forum is
full of threads dealing with this discussion ( so I won't go any deeper
into this at this time, one search should give enough info on this matter )

Let's get back to the thread: Is war with Iraq justified in Gods/godly eyes
Lets see what the word says :

Ecc 3:8  A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

Mat 24:6  And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not
troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

So first; let us not be troubled by the fact that the war in Iraq is on,
as "all these things must come to pass"; yes, this is the time of war.

So we move on to the real question of this thread: is the war in
Iraq morally right in Gods/godly eyes

Hear me out:

Num 22:12  And God said unto Balaam, Thou shalt not go with them;
thou shalt not curse the people: for they are blessed.

In the scripture above Balaam is instructed not to curse the Israelites
as they are Gods people, and the land is theirs for an inheritance.
With this in mind fastforward to this day:

Zec 12:2  Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the
people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah
and against Jerusalem.
Zec 12:3  And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for
all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces,
though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

Now; with the US co-responsible in enforcing this "treaty with hell" ( ISA 28)
by giving away parts of the Holy Land to the "philistines", they are
not following Gods guidelines concerning the sanctity of
 the borders of Israel.

So; I once again arrive in scripture at the same point :

Isa 28:18  And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement
with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then
ye shall be trodden down by it.

1Th 5:3  For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction
cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

TwoBombs,

Brother, I think that we are on several sheets of music, or possible we disagree with more than I thought.

I don't view any treaty being worked on now as establishing peace or being the treaty spoken of in Bible Prophecy. I also think that you might want to review the New Jerusalem.

Now that I think about it, we probably are on several sheets of music. I certainly don't think that the US is in any way going against Israel. And, I'm not associating your thoughts about Iraq in connection with Israel in any kind of a negative way. Iraq represented a life and death threat for Israel with just a few more developments, so I don't understand your line of thought. Regardless, I doubt very seriously that any of the leaders considered Bible Prophecy in the  final decisions to go to war with Iraq. Other than something currently positive for Israel, I don't see the connection. At least you said that I didn't state what you are talking about, so I obviously don't understand what you are saying.  :D  I still haven't had a chance to study your updated site. So, I'll do that first and get back with you.

Love in Christ,
Tom

1 Timothy 2:3-7 ASV  This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;  who would have all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth.  For there is one God, one mediator also between God and men, himself man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a ransom for all; the testimony to be borne in its own times;  whereunto I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I speak the truth, I lie not), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

No prob, bro.

Thanks for your comments Tom,
I too for a few months worked in a hostile environment as a CO in a juvenile prison and carried a side arm when out side the prison gates, watching the area for possible escapes, with authority to use deadly force in accordance to law.  I was at that time dealing with some questions concerning being a Christian and under state government authority as a CO.  My present stance was arrived at gradually in time.  Defending an attacker upon a child or person in ordinary life situations is not what I concider as being a solider.  Nor do I disapprove of what the US is doing to stop evil as in WW2.  What I know of the NT is that the one who recieves Christ as LORD and Savior is now under a New Authority and
alligence.  If the Word of God is our sole rule for faith and practice and if the new life of Christ within is a real one indeed, there must follow a different way of conducting ourselves in this world-even if I as a normal person who would take up arms if not surrendered to Jesus to follow Him.  There is one thing the Church has failed to do, and has lost it's power to do, to pray and know God hears and is doing His job.

Cottondale,

I understand what you are saying. Your personal convictions are between you and God, as are mine. In my mind, I am convinced that God still uses individuals and nations against evil. That's exactly the reason why hosts of Christian soldiers, police officers, and Christians involved in other lines of work requiring force have no conflicts of any kind. Yes, it is a matter of prayer, and the vast majority of Christians I know in such lines of work pray often about what to do and how to do it.

There is another side to the coin that many Christians consider. It is cruel to leave these jobs undone, and many feel led by God to do this work, even to the extent of giving their lives for the work they feel called to do. If a Christian feels led to avoid these lines of work, that's fine.

As a natural conclusion, I am firmly convinced that prayer is a very powerful tool and weapon, one that will never be replaced. Let me finish my thought by making a statement about prayer. When we pray for safety and peace for our families, I am positive that God may use us in establishing and maintaining that peace and safety. If we pray for an end to the killing of innocents, we just might be one of the tools that God uses to answer that prayer. This is not to say that I have anything bad to say about those who feel led by God to do nothing but pray. Those who feel led to do nothing but pray are still using a mighty weapon - PRAYER! Further, I don't question that role at all. In the same thought, they should not question that other Christians feel led to do more than prayer. I'm fully aware that God can accomplish anything without the use of a single human being. HE is ALL MIGHTY and ALL POWERFUL, but history has shown that HE does use human beings to accomplish His Will and purpose.

Let me give you an example for thought. Let's say that you pray that the starving people in Africa will be fed. Well, the fact is that many armed people are currently standing in the way of the starving people getting the food that has already been sent. So, hosts are starving to death while food sent by Christians sits in warehouses possibly rotting. Here's the next fact - many will probably have to fight and even lose their lives to get the food to the starving people. If and when these prayers are answered, guns and death will be involved. In the meantime, many thousands are starving to death every day. So, what might God do to answer the millions of prayers for these starving people??

Love In Christ,
Tom

James 2:5 ASV  Hearken, my beloved brethren; did not God choose them that are poor as to the world to be rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he promised to them that love him?