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There was a sermon on the radio that left me with a question.  The message was about God's Sovereignty (agree) and that He predestined us for salvation (agree) and that our accepting Him has nothing to do with our salvation (?)  So, if that is the case, then what is the motivation for a non-believer who is all bound up into sin to believe?

I agree that belief is a result of the Holy Spirit, and I agree that this encourages me to pray more for the lost, but if a non-believer asked you why, since their confession of faith has no bearing on the free gift of salvation that God predestined to give some but not others, why then should they give their life to Jesus, what would you say?

Put in otherwords, if salvation is a free gift from God, one in which not even our confession is needed to receive salvation, then what motivates a person to confess, read the Bible, battle the devil's wiles, etc?  If my skeptical young adult family member asks me that question, I want to be ready with an answer.

Regardless the answer, I am going to pray even more fervently for him because it would appear that only the Holy Spirit REALLY brings one to REAL repentance!  (By the way, this sweet young man is married to my daughter, so I'm going to pray for her too!)

Thanks for setting me strait on the word of God!

selahjoy

SelahJoy,

There is a movement today that is teaching this message. Some take it so far as to say that all will go to heaven for this reason.

The Bible is quite clear in its message of the Gospel and what we must do to be saved.

Joh 3:7  Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Joh 3:16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Rom 10:9  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.  

Luk 13:5  I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

1Jo 1:9  If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Eph 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9  Not of works, lest any man should boast.

I've heard of that teaching but I don't think that is the stand this preacher takes.  He is RC Schroll (spelling?).  Perhaps his overall message is that of the sovereignty of God, His works, not ours, that saves.  I would agree with that.

However, the Bible has passages both Old Testament and New in which people are exhorted to do something, be it confess by mouth, or sell all their stuff, or walk away from something and follow Jesus...

My point is that each person must make choices.  That doesn't mean that he deserves it anymore than the one who declines it.  For example, the two thieves on the cross.  They both deserved eternal separation from God,  but one accepted the free gift of God and the other one didn't.

I know it is difficult for works-based Christians to weed out the works mentality (I was raised in a works based religion with assigned days, and various rituals to observe regularly, and worst of all, if you sinned two minutes ago, you are now damned to hell--until ten minutes from now when you repent...which gets you salvation until you sin the next time...at which point you better repent real fast or you'll go to hell until you repent again...

That kind of theology is not Biblical.  I believe a closer-to-God's-heart way of rightly dividing His word is to understand that He desires all to come to Him.  He knows all will not.  Those who attain eternal relationship with God have a heart transplant.  They do something; they confess Jesus as God, Lord of all creation.  They hunger to know Him better which leads them to learn from the ancient writings we call the Bible.

When I heard RCS preach, I got a sense of awe and humility before the soveriegn God.  I appreciate that realization and want to meditate upon His word and receive all that God wants me to  know.

RCS pointed out that God chose Jacob, not Esau.  To me, that is an example of many other "why" and "why not" questions that we could ask our Lord.  But to me, this is more an example of the sovereignty of God in relation to one becoming this and another becoming that.  After all, we can't all be Esther or Joseph.  We can't all be called like Samson or Moses were, but we are all called to be His elected saved ones.  I believe even Pharoah could have been saved, if he had chosen it.  However, once he hardened his heart a number of times, God turned him over to his evil, carnal thinking.

Theology sure can get thick, can't it?  I prefer to remember my testimony.  I came to accept Jesus as God and left my future up to Him.  Because of the way I was raised, I figured if He felt heaven would be a better place without me, that was His perogotive.  However, I asked Him to let me get to be as close to Him as possible that day, which has turned into today, and right now.  Several years into my relationship with the Lord, a sister was praying for me and she felt Psalm 23 was for me.  She expounded upon it.  Later that same week, someone else prayed for me and she used the same text and said much the same thing!  I was touched, and the words, "...will dwell in the house of the Lord forever" stood out to me.  Tears fell down.  I didn't realize it up to that point, but apparently I had not known the assurance that He wanted me to live with Him forever in heaven.  But at that time, I for the first time, had a testimony of the fact that He invited me to the best family reunion ever!  I was overwhelmed, and happy to accept his invitation!

I don't know the literal theology that fits, but that's my testimony.  Now, I pray for others to know Him too.  By the way, THAT, I believe, is the most powerful testimony of Christianity in the world!  That Jesus can take humans who are innately selfish and make them look outward at others.  Further, that He can take offended souls and convince them to refuse to be offended, but to love others--even their enemies!  What an awesome religion!  

Thanks for reading, and if you know stuff that I should, I am so open to you, whether you are PR or whoeveryouare, please write to me.  Thank you,
selahjoy*

Amen SelahJoy, Thank you for sharing that wonderful testimony.

I am not familiar with the person that you mentioned nor his teachings so I am not meaning to sound as though I am judging him. While I definitely agree in Gods Sovereignty and that He predestined us for salvation, I believe that it makes a world of difference whether we accept Him or reject Him as to our Salvation.

The Bible does not explicitly use the word accept in regards to man accepting Jesus as Saviour. So therefore some will teach it is not necessary for us to "accept" Him. The word accept is only used in regards to Jesus accepting us. It is another one of those cases of arguing semantics. Yet if we look at it correctly when we confess Jesus Christ as our Saviour and Lord then we are indeed accepting Him as our Saviour and Lord.

I would also like to add some additional thoughts here.

There are those that go through the steps in appearance yet do not have faith in Jesus Christ as their Saviour. They have not truly accepted Him as Saviour. This is works without faith. Salvation is based on faith and not on works, yet faith without works is also dead. As we learn in the book of James good works are manifested through true faith in Jesus Christ.  

This does not mean that works are required to enter Heaven as you pointed out with the example of the thief on the cross that accepted Christ. This is saying that those who have true faith will exhibit it through their works. Why? because they will have the true desire to do their best to follow in the footsteps of Jesus, to do all they can to please Him in everyway they can. This does not mean that we will be perfect, for as long as we are in the flesh we will be subject to the temptations of the flesh.

The devils also believe and tremble in fear.

There are those that believe in Jesus Christ but still continue to sin as they did before without conviction of those sins, with no desire to change. These are not true followers of Jesus Christ. These are followers of their worldly lusts. We are seeing more and more of this in our churches throughout the world. The do as you want to do and still get to Heaven crowd. How terribly dissappointed they will be. How my heart suffers for these poor misguided souls.



Rom 10:9  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10  For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

 

Jam 2:17  Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jam 2:18  Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jam 2:19  Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jam 2:20  But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jam 2:21  Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jam 2:22  Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?


Mat 7:15  Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Mat 7:16  Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mat 7:17  Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18  A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19  Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 7:20  Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Mat 7:21  Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22  Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

JudgeNot's simple answer:

ACCEPT HIS LOVE!

Cherish His love. Return His love. Share His love with others.

Everything falls right into place after that...  :)

He is so wonderful - He makes it easy.  

If it's hard it means you're wrestling.  Jacob wrestled God and lost. (DUH!  ;D )(Genesis 32:22-32)  

Jacob said after the wrestling match (Genesis 32:30b) "For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved."

Just give up now - turn everything over to Him.

Accept His true, everlasting love.

That's what I have to do.  I'm pretty sure the formula is the same for all of us.
 :)

JN

Amen, JN!

I think you're on the right track.  Esau's and Pharoah's salvation isn't even dealt with in Romans 9.  The "it" of "it's not of him who wills or runs" isn't an individual’s personal salvation.  The “it” is “God’s purpose according to election”.  The context is the issue of national Israel’s role in history (chapters 9-11).

No one has ever been predestined to salvation.  Believers have been predestined to conformity to the image of His Son and to the adoption of sons (Rom. 8:29,30; Eph. 1:5,11).
People who have been chosen unto salvation aren’t “unconditionally” chosen.  

When people say to "accept" Christ it's usually used synonymously with "receive".  But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name. John 1:11  So it is scriptural to say that. :)

I do not wish to argue with anyone but I wish to give anyone that will, something to think about. God has a zero tolerance for sin, will not be around sin, will not allow sin to enter His kingdom. Why did God create a place that He knew would be so sinful and full of suffering? If He wanted more to worship Him and to fellowship with Him, He could make more angel and avoid all this sin and suffering. God wants something. The angels stood before God every day and yet 1/3 of them rebelled because they WANTED what God would not allow and they WANTED it MORE than they WANTED God. If they would have WANTED God MOST then they would not have rebelled. We r here because of what the angel did. We r here to be tested and tried, molded and made ready for heaven. God will have no more rebellion in His kingdom. What does it take to have God? We must repent and confess our sins, accept and believe on Jesus and what He did for us on the cross. This is the beginning. When u do this there r 3 things that happen to u. 1 (UR sins r forgiven). 2 (We r spiritually dead to God because of sin, we become spiritually alive to God (born again). 3 (The inborn nature is not cast out of ur heart at this time but he is suppressed). U want scripture? (KJV or NKJV) ( I do not read the NIV any more, it may be the worst translation we have). The gospel of John 1:12, To those that recieve Him (Jesus) r given the power or right TO BECOME the sons or children of God. There is a second step. Most churches used to teach this but most do not any more, It is just a sign of the times (the last days there will be a falling away (from truth) ). The second step is what I call the real decision. What does it take to get God's Spirit into ur heart? God must be what is MOST IMPORTANT to u. The story of the young rich man lets us know that what is MOST IMPORTANT to u will have ur alligence. When he was given a choice between God and his money, he chose what was most important to him, but it can be anything or anyone or urself that is MOST IMPORTANT to u. What is the MOST IMPORTANT to u? It is what u want more than anyone or anything else. It is what u will give up all else to get and keep. It is what u will do anything to get and keep. It is what u will go anywhere to get and keep. If u have God's Spirit in ur heart it will come down to, How much do u want God? We must TRUST God so much that we can give up or go or do and not fear that God will supply all our needs and our families needs. What does God's Spirit coming into our hearts do for us? When God's Spirit comes into our hearts the inborn nature is cast out and our hearts r purifyed. Sin like greed, lust, envy, jealousy etc. r also cast out because God will not dwell where sin dwells. When sin like greed, lust, envy etc. is cast out of our hearts it is no longer in control of us, it is how God makes it possible to say no to sin. Yes, u can give into and allow sin (greed, lust, envy etc.) back into our hearts like Lucifer did with pride. When we allow sin back in it will control us, we must ask forgivness and ask God to take it out again. As long as the inborn nature is in ur heart it will compel u to sin but when God's Spirit is in ur heart, sin becomes a choice. If u can serve God no matter the cost like Job and Joseph (go through the fire). If u can obey and surrender ur will and do God's will for ur life (take up ur cross). If u can obey and say no to sin here while being tempted (overcome). Then u will have no problem serving and obeying God in His kingdom. God will not just zap u and make u to where u will never rebel nor sin. If He were to do that then He would be programming u and u would be no more than a robot. It is a matter of quality of life that God made man and angel free willed. U say there will be no tempter in heaven. That is correct but u will still want and desire. Want and desire is why the angels rebelled. The bible says that a man is tempted when he is drawn away because of his own lust. It is something that he wants. U cannot be tempted by something u truly care nothing about. We must come to the place that all we want is God and the things of God for God is all there really is. I hope this helps someone.  

Selah,

I've said it before and I'll say it again.  I'm saved because God chose me before the foundations of the world to be conformed to the image of His Son.  And somewhere along the line I made a decision to obey His call that had eternal consequence.  

 :)

Plain and simple.  Not easily understood, but simple.

I have questions regarding these two verses. It seems that they imply that a person who is not truly saved can cast out demons in the name of the Lord. How can that be?

Also, doesn't this also show that spiritual gifts like prophecy, casting out demons, and miracles are not proof of Jesus' presence in your heart? Afterall, the Lord said that He "never" knew them, implying that they had not been saved at any time in their life (as opposed to, say, getting saved, performing those works while saved, then turning away from God and falling back into sin; for those who believe that one can lose their salvation).

I do believe that this verse explains it quite well.


Mat 24:24  For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Just because someone says that they are casting out demons does not necessarily mean that they are actually doing so. Just because someone uses the name Jesus does not mean that the word they are speaking is actually from Jesus, i.e. we have many that prophesy today that also talk about Jesus but do not recognise Jesus as their saviour. Sometimes those prophecies come true and sometimes they don't. There are those that say "I do this in the name of Jesus" but in their hearts they are doing those acts for their own personal benefit in front of man.

Jesus knows the hearts of man and why they do what they do.

There is power in the name of Christ.   Word/God breathed principles have effect when put in into practice.  But that is not insurance that we have come to saving Grace through faith in Christ.   Read further before you respond here  :)


Note very carefully what their claim to the Lord is in the verses...

Mat 7:22  Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?


They are declaring to the Lord their salvation by works....aren't we your sheep....look at US and OUR works?   But just as a sounding gong, and tinkling cymbal, they have no Love, nor give credit to the saviour who should be the one producing fruit through their lives.   Their works are not produced by saving Grace and Love of the Lord, but rather for the sake of raising themselves highly in the eyes of others, and even to God, and love of themselves....much like the pharisees.  

They have Religion, not Christ.   Wolves in Sheeps clothing.  

Yes faith and works do go hand in hand, but it must start with Faith and saving Grace.  It is when we truly put Christ at the headship of our lives that works are produced through us by Him.   Not us working to produce His works through a tested and proven manual/scripture which when practised does produce results.  

It all comes back to Who is Lord of our lives....Him or us.  Does He know us because of our broken plees for forgiveness and obediance to Him?   Or do we claim He knows us because WE do great things in the eyes of men and God?

Satan counterfeits.  It's probably that simple.  It reminds me of the miracles Moses did, and for each of them Pharoah had his magicians perform one also.  At least it might have looked that way.  Finally God hardened his heart to the point that he became reprobate.  He couldn't have repented even if he had wanted.  God gave him many chances and then just left him up to his own devices.  That's how I look at it anyway.

Grace and peace,
cris

Your reference is to R. C. Sproul, founder of Ligonier Ministries.

He is a "pop" psychologist theologian, and well into mind games ala Robert Schuller and others.  His basic theology is firmly rooted in 5 pt. Calvinism with a whole lot of divergences.

Since he believes that salvation is "predestined," choice doesn't enter into the matter, therefore we need to just go ahead with our lives, think positively, and become as good as possible in the "hope" that we were one of the ones selected.

The guys a flake (imo).

Believe it or not, I never even heard about the predestination theology until about 5 years ago.  I was absolutely shocked to learn that some people believe there are people born just to go to hell.  How horrible that is.  That would mean I serve a cruel God.  I don't believe a loving God would do this. I don't understand how anyone could, for that matter.  It sure sounds like an evil theology to me.

It is an evil theology. It is exclusionary. An "I am better than thou because God chose me" belief.

Thanks for that PR.  You're the first person, besides me, that ever said they thought that, too.  Exclusionary, oh yeah, that's my thought exactly.  God is NO respecter of persons.  How does that fit in with their 5 PT theology?

It doesn't. They also overlook the fact that Jesus died for all that will accept Him as their Saviour. Yes I do believe that God knows wich one will and which ones won't accept Him even before the foundations of the earth. This does not mean that He excluded anyone. It is the individual that excludes themselves.

Pastor Roger said
Pastor Roger – you are absolutely, undeniably correct.  ALL means ALL!

ALL have a choice to make.  

The choice is clear.  And I ain't talkin' abortion!

Oh - excuuuuuuuuuuuse me!  'Abortion' (killing the most innocent of humans) is now refered to as "a woman's reproductive freedom"  That term from the hate-filled and hate-spreaders, makes me puke - literally.  (Forgive me - I went off on a tangent, there.)

uhmmm....  Jesus MUST BE a personal choice.  God made it that way.  God knows what He is doing...

JN

Amen Brothers and Sisters!

YES!!! - Jesus Christ died for ALL, and all can believe in HIM and ask HIM to be LORD over their lives.

Some confuse "predestination" with what our Creator knew before the foundation of the world, including the number of hairs on our heads. Almighty God's foreknowledge of ALL in eternity past does not mean that JESUS only died for a few on the Cross or that any believer would be denied the Love and Salvation of JESUS.

It's a rotten shame that this simple truth confuses so many. Some who really need JESUS might feel that they are on some sort of reject list for Salvation because of what they have done in the past or some other thought that is advanced by this false doctrine.

It's really simple to make one category for folks who will be lost:

Those who refuse and reject JESUS CHRIST as Lord and Saviour over their lives.

It really doesn't matter that Almighty God obviously did and does know who will and who won't believe in JESUS CHRIST as Lord and Saviour. We are simply part of HIS Creation, and we should never doubt that the CREATOR of all knows all, and nothing was hidden from HIM from eternity past and eternity future. The same is true regarding our lives, our thoughts, our deeds, our motives, and what we mistakenly believe to be secret about us. Absolutely nothing is secret from the CREATOR!

Some like to take these foreknowledge facts and twist them into something they ARE NOT. Almighty God does not force us to accept or reject Salvation, and HE didn't make us robots. HIS foreknowledge of us is simply that of all ALL POWERFUL AND ALL KNOWING ALMIGHTY GOD!

If you are lost and reading this, PLEASE! take the time to read this and understand that you ARE NOT without hope. HEAR God's Word and listen carefully about what JESUS CHRIST did for you on the Cross. It doesn't matter what you've done in the past. Jesus Christ died on the Cross for you, and HE wants to forgive your sins. JESUS already loves you, and HE wants you to return HIS love. HIS blood on the CROSS is payment for your sins, however bad they are, and HE wants to live in your heart forever. JESUS has loved you from the start, regardless of the bad things you have done in your life. If you believe in JESUS and confess your sins, HE will be faithful and just to forgive your sins. If you want HIM and ask HIM, HE will become the LORD over your life, and you will be delivered from the punishment that we all deserve. In fact, HE will come to live in your heart, and you will never be alone again for eternity.

If you are lost and reading this, please feel free to ask questions. There are many sweet Christians here who would love for you to know more about our Precious Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ. Forget about us being self-righteous, because we are not! ALL of our righteousness is in JESUS CHRIST alone, and none of us deserve HIS love. I'm praying that you don't wait another minute.


Love In Christ,
Tom

Ephesians 2:1 ASV  And you did he make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins,
Ephesians 2:2 ASV  wherein ye once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the powers of the air, of the spirit that now worketh in the sons of disobedience;
Ephesians 2:3 ASV  among whom we also all once lived in the lust of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest:--
Ephesians 2:4 ASV  but God, being rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Ephesians 2:5 ASV  even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved),
Ephesians 2:6 ASV  and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus:
Ephesians 2:7 ASV  that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus:
Ephesians 2:8 ASV  for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Ephesians 2:9 ASV  not of works, that no man should glory.
Ephesians 2:10 ASV  For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them.

If you are talking about R.C. Sproul, he is a true Christian. in his books he quotes the same scriptures given here by Pastor Rogers.
What exactly are you saying that Dr. Sproul teaches?
Maybe we are not talking about the same person.

God bless,
bluelake

I have had some dealings with those who believe in predestination,election and Universal Salvation.Some of their beliefs are intertwined.Some believe that the elect are the only ones that will go to Heaven,and nothing can change that.They believe that since we don't know who those elect are,we need to live a righteous life.That isn't based on Scripture.
  The Universalists believe in predestination,at least some do,but that everyone will eventually be saved.The elect are chosen to avoid punishment after the rapture.They don't believe that a person can fall from grace,since it is predestined for all the world to be saved.
  All of those beliefs are based on interpretation of the Scriptures.Although the Bible speaks of the elect,it does not say that the elect are safe from falling.
2 Timothy 10 :"Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory".
  If all are to be saved,and there will be no eternal punishment,as the Bible claims,then not only is the Bible wrong,but Jesus died for nothing.We are told that we must believe in Christ and repent of our sins.Those who don't do that will not get to see Heaven.

Let us ignore the works based theologies such as what the Roman Catholic (RC) Church preaches.

That leaves us the two positions that have been presented in this thread on salvation.

The one is that The Lord's death on the cross was sufficient for all who will take the step of believing in him.  Note that this requires action on our part.  That we must make that decision and God is waiting for us with open arms.  It is all about our "Free Will".  We can accept or reject as we choose.  

This is a variation of what is called "Arminian" theology.  

As was pointed out earlier, we cannot take that step without hearing the Gospel;

Rom 10:14  But how are they to call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?

The other position is called "Reformed" theology.  In Reformed theology the question is asked how do we come to have faith?  Is our faith due to our Free Will decision or is it due to God's action?

Paul said;

Eph 2:8  For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

Is this gift of God that Paul speaks of God's grace or is it the gift of faith?

Let us look at what the Lord had to say;

Joh 6:44  No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Joh 6:47  Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.

Joh 6:63  It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is of no avail. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
Joh 6:64  But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.)
Joh 6:65  And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."

Who does the Father grant this belief to?

Paul said;

(Rom 8:28)  And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.

(Rom 8:29)  For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

(Rom 8:30)  And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Eph 2:8  For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9  not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Eph 2:10  For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them

The Reformed position is that if the decision to come to Christ is of our "free will" and not of God's will, then that decision is a Work of man in which they can boast.  "I chose Christ"  "I am saved because I stood before the church and said that I chose Christ."  These are, in the Reformed view, boasts.

The Reformed view is that we come to faith because of and by God's decision before time, His call and His gift of grace, not by some decision of our own.

And again we cannot respond to God's call without hearing the Gospel;

Rom 10:14  But how are they to call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?
Rom 10:15  And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!"


I praise God for the Good News!

The first view is, of course, correct. We are "predestinted" in that God does know a priori who will accept His Grace, and who won't. (Jeremiah 1:7). We still have the Free Will to chose or not on our own, but like Job, God knows how we will fare in the tribulations of this world.

God's desire is that ALL should be saved. That is part of our commision to preach the Gospel, to bring the Light of the World to others.

Can you please explain your view with scripture and in light of the following verses?  

Joh 6:44  No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

(Rom 8:29)  For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

(Rom 8:30)  And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Thanks!

Hello FoundTheLight,

First, I hope that I've welcomed you to Christians Unite. Just in case I haven't, WELCOME!!


I would have a very simple and general reply to your question, but I would be interested in the ideas of many others with your question.

Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.

This is really a beautiful and very simple thought when you think about it. HEARING becomes a loving and personal invitation from GOD. It is this invitation that draws the lost to Christ, and every Christian remembers this invitation as one of the high points of their life. It's an interesting thought that JESUS is also known as THE WORD. THE WORD is GOD and belongs to GOD, and we all know that THE WORD is more powerful than any two-edged sword. One could continue with the simple thoughts and say with certainly that GOD sends and transmits HIS WORD through willing servants. SO, it would be accurate to say that everything is initiated and begins with GOD.

Almighty God knew the exact moment you would hear THE WORD that drew you to CHRIST in eternity past, before the foundation of the world. HE also knew whether you would accept or reject HIS WORD. HIS foreknowledge was and is everything. Again, this does not hint or suggest that any person was programmed as a robot to reject CHRIST. Countless portions of precious Scripture clearly state that JESUS died for all, and none will be rejected. JESUS does not force anyone to reject HIM. If rejection is involved, it is the rejection of JESUS by the individual person, NOT the rejection of the person by JESUS.

To boil things down to the most simple form, there is only one unpardonable sin: rejection of JESUS CHRIST as Lord and Saviour. Every Christian knows that ONLY the Blood of JESUS on the Cross makes this possible. JESUS was and is the LIGHT of the WORLD. JESUS came into the world to save all sinners, not just some, but many rejected HIM.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Titus 2:11-14 NASB  For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.

2 Peter 3:9 NASB  The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

Romans 10:16-17 NASB  However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?" So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

John 3:16-18 NASB  "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Ephesians 2:8-10 NASB  For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Tom,

I thank you for your kind welcome to the board.  I pray that any discussions we have will lead to greater glory for God our Father.

I do not normally come to a board and respond as I have so early in my membership.  However, things have been said about Reformed theology which I cannot sit by and ignore.  I say this not out of anger, but rather, out of the understanding that many false and scurrilous things have been taught by those who have not studied the teachings of the reformers and that those things have been passed down from generation to generation as truth.  

I pray that, if my understanding is incorrect, the Holy Spirit will use this forum to show me my error.  The converse also applies.

There are a few things in your latest post that I would address.

1. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.

You are correct in that we must hear the Gospel in order to come to faith.  That is why Satan is so active in our society to remove the word of God from our daily lives and substitute the things we see in our movies and on TV.

Rom 10:14-15
(14)  But how are they to call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?
(15)  And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!"


2.   HEARING becomes a loving and personal invitation from GOD. It is this invitation that draws the lost to Christ, and every Christian remembers this invitation as one of the high points of their life.

You are correct in saying this.  The question is; how are we, as sinners, able to respond to this invitation?  As Paul says;

Rom 3:9-20
(9)  What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin,
(10)  as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one;
(11)  no one understands; no one seeks for God.
(12)  All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one."
(13)  "Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive." "The venom of asps is under their lips."
(14)  "Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness."
(15)  "Their feet are swift to shed blood;
(16)  in their paths are ruin and misery,
(17)  and the way of peace they have not known.",
(18)  "There is no fear of God before their eyes."
(19)  Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God.
(20)  For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.


If, as Paul says; "no one understands; no one seeks God", how can we in our "Free Will" make that decision to ask Christ into our lives as Lord and Savior?  What is it that makes understand our sin and reach out in repentance and faith?  

Again we turn to Paul;

Eph 2:4-5
(4)  But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
(5)  even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved--

Eph 2:8
(8)  For by grace you have been saved through faith.  And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

We are saved through grace by faith.

"And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God"

This gift of Grace, this gift of faith, is given to us through the calling of the Holy Spirit.  

As Jesus said;

Joh 6:44
(44)  No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

As Paul affirmed, although the words of God Himself do not need confirmation;

Rom 8:13-14
(13)  For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
(14)  For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

Rom 8:29-30
(29)  For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
(30)  And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

The Word of God plainly says that we are dead in our sin and cannot respond to the preaching of the Gospel unless we are called by the Holy Spirit.  

To say that we can respond without the call of the Holy Spirit is to say that we can be saved through our own strength and works, which is a lie.

Yours in Christ,

Willis

Hello FoundTheLight,

I don't know if you are agreeing and putting things in different terms or disagreeing. The Romans 3 portion of Scripture becomes plain when you put it into context. The very general statements Paul made about the Law and sin are obviously answered by God's Grace and Gift for those who accept that Grace and Gift - JESUS CHRIST as Lord and Saviour.

Paul makes many statements about those who remain mired in the Law and rejected JESUS. However, the focus of Paul's ministry is the cure - The CROSS and JESUS.

I haven't studied the Reformers or other groups - I study the Bible. JESUS died for ALL, but only those who accept HIM with faith will be saved. I hope you don't think that I hinted at Universal Salvation, as I would believe that to be a false doctrine. Only those who accept JESUS as LORD over their lives will be saved.

Before we accepted JESUS, we all shared the same condition, and that condition is specifically defined by Paul in numerous portions of Scripture. Depravity would be a good word for that condition, but JESUS is the cure. There is no irony that JESUS and the CROSS were the core and primary purpose for Paul's ministry. The CROSS also defined the difference between Law and Grace. In fact, Paul makes it plain that the CROSS was the most precious and important event of history for ALL mankind. GOD's Love, Grace, and GIFT does offer a rescue from the curse of sin and death for ALL who will receive it.

If you are saying that JESUS didn't die for ALL men, I would disagree completely. If you are saying that JESUS will reject some who are wanting HIM as LORD, I would disagree completely. Rejection is by a man's choice, NOT by God's Choice. Anything else would be false doctrine and against the teachings of the Holy Bible. The CROSS was for ALL, but only those who believe and have faith in JESUS CHRIST as Lord and Saviour will be saved.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 4:20-21 NASB  yet, with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief but grew strong in faith, giving glory to God, and being fully assured that what God had promised, He was able also to perform.

Tom,

I will state this as plainly as I can without the scripture references.

The Bible is the Inspired Word of God

The Psalmist and Paul said that we are incapable of choosing God on our own.

Jesus said that we cannot come come to Him unless the Father sends or draws us.

We cannot be saved without having our ears and hearts opened by the Father through the Holy Spirit, for this is what Jesus plainly meant when He said that the Father has to draw us.

Then, and only then, when we hear the Gospel we will respond to it and reach out for the promise of salvation.

This means that it is not through our own action of Will that we accept Christ, but rather through the opening of our ears by the Holy Spirit that we receive the free gift of Grace.

Hello FoundTheLight,

 ???

Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.

That is the drawing/calling of God and the Holy Spirit.

I've already stated that everything begins with God. That should be obvious to all Christians.

Our decision is NOT forced - we either accept or reject.

The Holy Bible makes it clear that God wishes NONE would perish in their sins without JESUS. Almighty God could whisper and force every man to accept JESUS, but HE obviously doesn't. We either accept or reject God's Grace, Love, and GIFT.

If you are in disagreement, I don't understand what you are disagreeing with.

Love in Christ,
Tom

Psalms 18:30-31 NASB  As for God, His way is blameless; The word of the LORD is tried; He is a shield to all who take refuge in Him. For who is God, but the LORD? And who is a rock, except our God,

Hi FoundTheLight,

Are you saying that God does not call all to His saving grace? The Bible is quite clear that God does call all and wants all to accept Him through Jesus Christ.

2Pe 3:9  The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

All men are called to Gods saving grace. It is but for us to accept His love for us or to reject it.

I have already stated that I intend to defend reformed theology.  

My question is; Why won't you, or Blackeyedpeas, in a spirit of Christian love, directly address the verses and questions I have raised?  Please show me my error on these verses.

Hello FoundTheLight,

First, you are very vague about which theology you are talking about. "Reformed Theology" is an extremely broad term used by tons of folks, some Biblical and some NOT.

Second, there are numerous replies with considerable detail and Christian love. I, for one, still don't know what you are agreeing or disagreeing with. Maybe we would understand what you are trying to defend if you answer the easy questions in our posts.

Love in Christ,
Tom

Romans 8:1-2 NASB  Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

What I mean by Reformed Theology is the theology which came directly out of the Reformation in response to the false teachings of the Roman Church.  That is where the term Reformed Theology came from, as it was an attempt to reform the faith and put it back in line with what the Bible taught.  This was defined by such men as Luther, Melanchthon, and Calvin.  Later came Knox, Owens, Spurgeon and others.  These men sought to express their faith in terms of what the Bible taught, not in what the Church taught.  Remember that the Roman church placed the teachings of the Church on a higher plane than the Bible.  Whereas the Refomers believed and taught "Sola Scriptura" where the Bible is the final judge of the teachings of the church.  If the teachings contradict the Bible they are wrong.  The Roman church would not accept this.

From this comes such things as the Canons of Dort, the Belgic Confession, the Heidelberg Catechism, The Scots Confession, and the Westminster Confession all of which sought to express the main concepts of of Reformed theology in a condensed form.


Rather that argue needlessly, what if I were to create a new topic, Reformed Theology, where I could post a series of essays on the major points?  I am no theologian and as questions come in I may not be able to answer instantly.

What to you think?

I think there's been a bit of a miscommunication error around here...lol. I don't think he's disagreeing with ya BEP's...not from the way i read his posts. I happen to agree with quite a bit of the things he's saying. It seems to me that you (foundthelight) have taken a very historical approach. I don't fault you for defending Reformed Theology. I think in common terms wouldn't that be also known as Protestantism? Could ya clarify on that one? I don't think there's much disagreement as there is miscommunication of words. I could be seeing this wrong or something, but I'd like to read more of what you have to say found...your idea of starting a thread simply for Reformed Theology is a good idea...i'd like to see it. Grace and peace to you brother.

In Christ,
Joshua

Thank you Joshua,

The Reformation is what started Protestantism.  However, whith the freedom from the rule of the Roman church, Protestantism split into many branches with differing opinions on what the Bible tells us.  

I thought that is what happened...I wasn't quite sure...but thanks for the clarification.Reformed Theology isn't a bad thing at all...i just simply think that there wasn't much clarification...lol. Easy to do with text, considering we cannot hear tone of voice. Anywho, I must zip and head to the food place here on campus.

Coram Deo
Joshua

Hello FoundTheLight,

We don't use man's tags, labels, and denominations here very much because they cause such confusion and mean so many different things to different people. So, I'm personally not interested in a discussion that requires so much guessing. Some terms cause less confusion than others, but I find that the Holy Bible and plain English are more than sufficient.

Maybe someone else would be interested in such a discussion.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 4:20-21 NASB  yet, with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief but grew strong in faith, giving glory to God, and being fully assured that what God had promised, He was able also to perform.

I don't understand the comment about guessing.  Everything I have said has been backed up with plain scripture.

Reformed theology has been called "evil" and "exclusionary" in this thread.

I find that attitude to be un-Christian and exclusionary.

If you want me to say that I believe that the Bible teaches that the Bible teaches Pre-destination and not Free-Will.  It does and I do.  I have made that plain.  

I have given many verses in defense of that position.  Verses that you have studiously ignored.

Yes God would like all men to be saved.  Do you honestly believe that if that was His definite Will that all would not be saved?

I like the way John Owen the 17th century Puritan Pastor put it:

The Father imposed His wrath due unto, and the Son underwent punishment for, either:

1.   All the sins of all men.
2.   All the sins of some men, or
3.   Some of the sins of all men.

In which case it may be said:

1.   That if the last be true, all men have some sins to answer for, and so, none are saved.
2.   That if the second be true, then Christ, in their stead suffered for all the sins of all the elect in the whole world, and this is the truth.
3.   But if the first be the case, why are not all men free from the punishment due unto their sins?

You answer, "Because of unbelief."

I ask, Is this unbelief a sin, or is it not? If it be, then Christ suffered the punishment due unto it, or He did not. If He did, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which He died? If He did not, He did not die for all their sins!"

Hello FoundTheLight,

Now I understand completely, and I guessed right. You are here to defend the Calvinist position and T.U.L.I.P. So, you have been given more than adequate Scripture. I don't view that as a bar to fellowship, but I do view that as false teaching. JESUS was and is the LIGHT of the World, and ANY man or woman can come to the LIGHT because JESUS died on the Cross for ALL mankind. To say that JESUS died only for SOME would be false and exclusionary. When I witness to people about JESUS, I don't include the disclaimer, "But only if your name is on the list."

I have no desire to debate this topic with you. I will spend my time in sharing the Gospel of the Grace of God, God's Love, God's Grace, and God's GIFT that is offered to ALL.

You and I can simply agree to disagree. I can still have fellowship with you, but I know that will be up to you.


Love in Christ,
Tom

1 Peter 1:3 NASB  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

WHAT YOU NEED TO KNOW FIRST:

Your life in this mortal body will be short, but your soul will live for eternity either in heaven or hell. Those who have received Salvation and accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour will live forever with Jesus in Heaven. Those who reject Jesus Christ will spend eternity in Hell. Almighty God, the Creator of all, is real and He Lives. Almighty God is three Holy Deities in ONE GOD: God, the Father; God, the Son, and God, the Holy Spirit. The Holy Bible is the inspired Word of God, containing the only true account of all creation, both past and future. God does love you, regardless of how many bad things you have done in your life. Because of his Love for you, God sent his only Son, Jesus Christ, to be crucified and die on a cross for your sins. Jesus Christ lived on this earth in the form of a man, but He was very God. Jesus Christ was righteous and without sin, yet he was convicted and sentenced to death. Jesus died and was buried, but he arose on the third day. Some might question whether this event happened, but the world's time is set by this event recorded in history: (B.C.) Before Christ; (A.D.) After Death. Jesus Christ ascended back to Heaven and HE LIVES, very God. God wants you to accept Him, return His love, and become one of His children. God wants to adopt you and give you an inheritance, but you must believe to accept this Gift. This Gift is given by God's Grace and love for you. The Gift is free, and you did nothing to deserve it or earn it.


HOW CAN I BE SAVED AND RECEIVE SALVATION?

If you are unsaved, please read this carefully. Do you many times feel alone in this world and helpless because of the evil you see and experience? Do you feel bad when you do wrong and wonder if there must be something other than this world to enjoy? Do you feel empty and unhappy about yourself and what the future may bring? Answering these and other questions may give you the reasons why you should accept Jesus Christ as your personal Saviour. Would you like to experience and enjoy peace, joy, and love this world can't offer? It isn't hard to become a believer and Saved: you can receive Salvation right now, this minute.

   1. I AM A SINNER: You must understand that you are a sinner. Sin is wrong, as commanded by Almighty God in his Word, the Holy Bible. All men sin and do wrong in the sight of Almighty God. Regardless of how large or small your sins are, you can be forgiven and accepted as a Child of God. (See Scripture Notes 1 below)

   2. I BELIEVE THAT JESUS CHRIST DIED ON THE CROSS FOR MY SINS AND AROSE FROM THE DEAD AS MY LORD AND SAVIOUR: Almighty God sent his only begotten Son, Jesus Christ, to die on the cross for you, in payment for your sins. The Blood of Jesus Christ will wash away your sins as if they had never happened. Jesus Christ bore suffering and pain on the cross for you, that you can be saved and be forgiven. Jesus Christ arose from the dead and LIVES as the Lord and Saviour to all who will believe and accept him. This is a Gift by God's Grace, a free gift that you didn't earn or deserve. (See Scripture Notes 2 below)

   3. I ASK JESUS CHRIST TO COME INTO MY HEART AS MY PERSONAL SAVIOUR AND FORGIVE MY SINS: You must trust Jesus Christ and ask him to come into your heart as your personal Lord and Saviour. Ask Jesus Christ to be first in your life and forgive your sins. (See Scripture Notes 3 below)

   4. If you are sincere and believe the above three statements with your heart, you will be: saved, born again, baptized with the Holy Spirit, forgiven, indwelt by God, adopted into the family of God, made an heir of God, set apart for God, and much more that you will learn as you grow in Christ.

   5. I hope this doesn't sound difficult. The words and thoughts must be your words and thoughts from your heart. You must believe in your heart and ask Jesus for Salvation from your heart. Your prayer can be very simple, but your prayer must be from your heart.

   6. A simple prayer, maybe something like this: "Lord Jesus, I am a sinner not worthy of your Love. Lord Jesus, I believe that you died on the cross for me and I ask you to come into my heart as my Lord and Saviour. Lord Jesus, I ask forgiveness for my sins and ask to follow you as the Lord of my life. In the name of Jesus Christ, I pray. Amen."

===============See Page 2

SCRIPTURE NOTES 1:

    * Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
    * Ecclesiastes 7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.
    * 1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
    * Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
    * Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;


SCRIPTURE NOTES 2:

    * John 19:16 Then delivered he him therefore unto them to be crucified. And they took Jesus, and led him away.
    * John 19:17 And he bearing his cross went forth into a place called the place of a skull, which is called in the Hebrew Golgotha:
    * John 19:18 Where they crucified him, and two other with him, on either side one, and Jesus in the midst.
    * John 19:19 And Pilate wrote a title, and put it on the cross. And the writing was, JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS.
    * 1Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
    * Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    * Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


SCRIPTURE NOTES 3:

    * John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
    * John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
    * John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
    * Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
    * Romans 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
    * Romans 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
    * Romans 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
    * Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.


MY PRAYER:

I pray that God will soften your heart and guide you to accept Jesus Christ as your Personal Saviour RIGHT NOW. In the name of Jesus Christ, I pray. Amen.

Amen Brother Tom, that is indeed the beautiful words of God.



Mat 7:7  Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Mat 7:8  For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

Greetings and Salutations All,

The Question is "What Must We Do To Be Saved?"

It would seem to me that the simple answer is clearly laid down by our Lord Jesus, at the very beginnig of His Ministry to the World.

" Repent ye; for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Mat 3:2)

"Now after John was delivered up, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God,
and saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe in the gospel." (Mark !: 14-15)

Blessings to All, Malcolm.

Four steps to God

1. GOD LOVES YOU AND IS SEEKING TO HAVE PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP WITH YOU

"In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us, and sent His Son to remove the barrier of sin." 1 John 4:10

God loves you and planned a wonderful, full life for you.  He wants to enter a personal and intimate relationship with you that includes fellowship, inner peace, happiness, guidance in life and power to fulfill His special plan for your life.

2. SIN HAS CREATED A BARRIER BETWEEN MAN AND GOD

“All have sinned and come short of the Glory of God.” Romans 3:23

GOD is Holy, and cannot have a relationship with anyone who falls short of His righteous character.  Sin began when man went his own independent way and rejected his relationship with God.  At that point, man became unacceptable to God’s Holy character.

The Ten Commandments were given to show us how good we would have to be if we try to come to God in our own merit.  But God doesn’t grade our law-keeping on the curve.  He said, “For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.” James 2:10

No matter how sincere we are, or how hard we try, or how religious we are, we can never produce a righteousness that God can accept.  Even our good deeds are not acceptable in God’s sight, “But we are all like an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags …” Isaiah 64:6

So our sin has created a barrier that we cannot remove.  Even though God loves you, He cannot compromise His holy character to receive you.  Only God can remove this barrier.

3. JESUS CHRIST CAME TO REMOVE THE BARRIER BETWEEN GOD AND MAN

Jesus said of Himself, “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.”  John 3:16

“The Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.” Matthew 20:28

You see, God so loved us that He stepped out of eternity into time and became a man in the person of Jesus Christ.  He lived a perfect life as a man and thus qualified to die for the sins of the world.  He then willingly died in our place to purchase a pardon for sins and satisfy the demands of His own perfect justice.   When He did, He tore down the barrier of sin that separated us.

4. NOW THERE IS ONLY ONE BARRIER BETWEEN YOU AND GOD YOU MUST RECEIVE THE PARDON JESUS PURCHASED FOR YOU

Jesus Christ has removed every barrier that stood between you and God except one -- you must receive the pardon He purchased for you by an act of your will. You see, a pardon is not a pardon until it is received. There is a pardon with your name on it in heaven, but you must receive it to make it valid.

It is not a matter of how good you are -- or even how bad you are. The issue is, will you talk to God and tell him you receive the pardon he purchased for you.  He wants you to come just as you are and confess you can never be good enough for Him to accept.

YOU can change your eternal destiny right now.  Wherever you are, just bow your head and tell God you receive His pardon for your sins.  Ask Jesus Christ to come into your life and begin to give you a new heart with new desires.  He will come into your life and bring a new power and motivation for living you never dreamed possible.

Jesus gave us this invitation, “Behold, I stand at the door and knock.  If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.”  Revelation 3:20  The door represents your will.

The Lord Jesus Christ is knocking at the door of your will right now.  Just invite Him in and receive the gift of pardon He gave His life to give you.  Then thank Him for the pardon and that He must keep His Word.

Don’t expect feelings right away.  Some have them, some don’t.  The important thing is to simply believe God keeps His Word and He now has come to live in you.  Seek out a Church that is true to the Bible and seek to learn about your new life.

“For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.” 2 Corinthians 5:21

Resting in the hands, of Jesus.
Bob

Romans 12:9 Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good.

Salvation through Jesus Christ

Trouble In This Ole World
2 Corinthians 11
Our world is awash with trouble. It comes in a seemingly endless stream. Peoples of all faiths, irrespective of colour, class and intelligence are experiencing trouble of one kind or an other. After all these years mankind is still incapable of eradicating trouble. Indeed our troubles appear to be on the increase. And so we have: wars, famines, disease, persecution, unemployment, violence, greed and a host of other problems too numerous to mention. The root problem of course is sin. Sin is an attitude of mind which manifests itself in rebellion against Jesus's commandments.
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law:
for sin is the transgression of the law.
1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin committeth also iniquity. And sin is iniquity.

In the beginning mankind was offered a choice between life on the one hand and knowledge on the other Genesis 2:16-17 And he commanded him, saying: Of every tree of paradise thou shalt eat. But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat. For in what day soever thou shalt eat of it, thou shalt die the death. Our first parents rejected the Tree of Life (which represented Jesus Christ) and chose Satan: the one who had the knowledge and personal experience of good and evil. Their decision plunged the whole world into troubles so great that they now threaten to engulf us. Our first parents wanted to know about good and evil, by personal experience. Mankind's present plight some 6000 years later is simply the result of their tragic decision to see for themselves. Problems are the evil part, the part of which the whole human race now has full knowledge. Bear in mind that the root cause of all our problems is sin, the rejection of Yahweh's (Jesus's) directions and the violation of His commands. The sin may be in ourselves, in others, in society at large or may even go back several generations to our ancestors. But you can be sure that at the root of every problem is sin. Somebody, somewhere along the line has transgressed the law of the Most High and human suffering is the result.

Is there any salvation from this sad state of affairs, this roundabout of rebellion, this treadmill of trouble? I am happy to say, there is.

Worst of Sinners
Many sinners suppose that they are worse than all others. This is an understandable reaction to strong conviction, but it is wrong in every case. In any event Jesus Christ came to save all sinners, irrespective of whether they think they are the worst or not - for "all have sinned" Rom.3:23 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins.
1 Timothy 1:15 A faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the chief. This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Therefore no matter what the problem is, and it may not be your fault, for its root cause may go back a hundred years or more, Jesus Christ can help you. He is 'God in human flesh' and he can save you from problems of every kind. As Abraham Lincoln once said to a friend in great trouble: "Go to Him and pray, for He alone can save you."

What must you do to be saved?
By far the most important piece of information ever to be transmitted to the sons and daughters of men is the answer to the question: What must you do to be saved? Please note, not just from one's temporal problems which come to believer and unbeliever alike - but from the end result of sin - condemnation and everlasting death!
Acts 16:30,31  ... Sirs What must I do to be saved?
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
John 3:16-18  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

From these passages you can see that faith in Yeshua (the Saviour's Hebrew name) is the way to salvation. In short, the sinner, no matter how bad he/she may think he/she is, must have faith in Christ Jesus. They must believe what Yahweh has categorically promised. And he must rest assured that what the Almighty has promised, He will do. The whole universe would descend into absolute chaos if Jesus failed to keep this single promise. So we can have absolute confidence in Him that He will not break His word. Trust Him. He will do what He says.

The Value of Trouble
Salvation from sin and its consequence is guaranteed to those who have faith in Jesus Christ. But what about the present problems (physical ills, persecution, poverty, starvation, homelessness, unemployment, loneliness etc) which are not automatically removed when a person believes? Let us consider some examples.
Righteous Job
Job 1:3    His enormous wealth: 10 children, 7000 sheep, 3000 camels, 500 yoke of oxen, 500 she asses and many servants.
Job chapters 1-37   His terrible troubles: Job lost practically everything, wealth, possessions, family, health and friends. Few men or women have suffered as Job did.
His faith:
Job 13:15    ... Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him...
Job 19:25,26    For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth. And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God.

Job's experience proves that even a godly person can have troubles. And they may not be speedily removed even after prayer. But faith can win through every trouble no matter how bad it may be. When you fell that your troubles are too much, think of Job.

The Apostles
All the Apostles suffered enormously; far more than is generally known. And in the end almost all suffered a martyr's death. They had troubles, no one will dispute that fact. But Yahweh allowed them to experience trouble for a very good reason. He was with them throughout their trials. He did not remove trials; but provided the strength to bear them. Note Paul's attitude in time of trial.
Romans 5:3-5 But we glory in tribulation: knowing that tribulation worketh patience,  and patience experience, and experience hope.  And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.


A few facts, I have learned.

A believer's faith or greatness does not exempt him/her from suffering.
And the reason is that Christ's power to overcome evil is best demonstrated in the midst of trouble. The greater the darkness the more effective is His shining grace and glory.
Yeshua's (Jesus) grace is all you need. His power comes to its full strength when we are helpless.
2Cor:12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

How can you beat a deal like this, and it's free.

Resting in the hands,  of Jesus.
Bob

Nahum 1:3 "The Lord is slow to anger and great in power, And the Lord will by no means leave the guilty unpunished. In whirlwind and storm is His way, And clouds are the dust beneath His feet."

Are you Saved???

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True salvation
According to Gods word (KJV)

Scripture tells us
“For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;” Romans 3:23
We as humans are sinners, we only think about what we want and not what God commands. We are all sinners that deserve to die and go to hell because of our sins and God is perfectly fair, just, and honest to do so. BUT God doesn’t want us to die and go to hell, so he provided a way out, through his only begotten son Jesus Christ. Call upon the name of Jesus Christ and though shalt be saved, its that simple. God cannot allow you into heaven with your sin that’s why Jesus’ righteousness is put on us and our sin put on him that was nailed to that tree. That is how the blood of Christ cleanseth us from all iniquity. Only through the grace of God can we find our way into his kingdom. The grace of God is Jesus Christ who was sent to be our Saviour by his dying on the cross and washing us clean of our sins. We are saved by grace and grace alone. The meaning is grace is to receive something you are not deserving of.
“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:” Ephesians 2:8

Christ died for us knowing what kind of sinners we are and would be.
“But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.” Romans 5:8

Jesus knows all of our sins and all of our evil thoughts, and he loves us anyways! That is true love, Jesus loves us and wants us to come to him by our own free will.
 “This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.” 1 Timothy 1:15

Jesus is the only way to get to heaven, he is the only way to obtain salvation.
“Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.” Acts 4:12
“And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.” Acts 2:21

The bible clearly tells us how to get saved.
“That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness: and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.” Romans 10:9-10
We must first believe without a shadow of a doubt that Jesus is the son of God and that he was crucified and then raised from the dead three days later. Once we fully believe this then we must confess that to the Lord, tell him that we believe this and ask him into our lives.

Then we must repent of our sins. Repentance means to know what you are doing is wrong and turning, fleeing, and getting rid of all wrong doings. We cant just have pentance we must have Repentence. Pentence is mearly knowing that something is wrong but continuing to do it, to Repent you must not only acknowledge it but also flee from it.
2 Corinthians 5:17 “Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.”

After initial salvation good works and fruit must follow to show ones salvation. If someone shows no works, are they truly saved? Scripture says we are saved by grace alone through the blood of Jesus Christ and not by works. Our works is what we show after salvation to show others our salvation.
Ephesians 5:11 “And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.”
James 2:18-26 “Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.”

After accepting him into our lives we must then live for him, the only way we can live for him is to study his word the KJV bible. Being born again only takes a few seconds but growing takes a long time. You grow by baptism by full submersion, reading your bible, finding a good KJV bible believing church, and most of all, lots of prayer to the Lord, also fellowshipping with fellow followers of Jesus Christ. We should not ever try to compromise with God, His laws are black and white and he doesn’t compromise with us and we shouldn’t with him. Tolerance is not something that Christians should have. We should read the bible every day and live by the rules God has set before us. When we realize that something is a sin we should repent of it and not commit that sin anymore. As saved Christians we should live our lives to please God not ourselves. Once saved we have the choice to live fully for our Saviour or to continue to live for the devil, it will be your choice to make.

If just one person gets saved from this, Fellowship of the Mystery ministry then all of our efforts have been worth every second. Our purpose here as the staff of the Fellowship of the Mystery is first and for most to show people what the KJV bible says of how to escape the flames of hell and obtain eternal salvation through Jesus Christ. Then we can grow, discuss, and fellowship together.
Ephesians 3:9 “And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:”

The bible tells us that every time a sinner is saved and comes into Gods family the angels of heaven rejoice to the Father over that sinner that is now saved by grace.
St. Luke 15:10 “Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.”

We pray that these words will help you in your search for salvation and eternal happiness if you have not already found it. We do not feel that someone should lead you in a prayer (meaning you repeat the prayer that someone else says). The prayer that we pray to Jesus should be our own and come from our own heart not someone elses.


Servants of Jesus Christ:
Brother Jerm, travisc, Victoria

Last edited by Brother Jerm, 9/12/2005, 8:00 pm



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"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose." Romans 8:28
 
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