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The very first effort of Satan to overthrow God's law ...undertaken among the sinless inhabitants of heaven ...seemed for a time crowed with success.
  A vast number of the angels were seduced, but Satan's apparent triumph resulted in defeat and loss ....separation of God ...and banishment from heaven.

  When the conflict was renewed upon earth, Satan again won a seeming advantage. By transgression, man became his captive, and man's kingdom also was betrayed into the hands of the archrebel.
  Now the way seemed open for Satan to establish an independant Kingdom, and to defy the authority of God and his son.
  But the plan of salvation made it possible for man again to be brought into harmony with God, and to render obedience to his law.

   Again Satan was defeated, and again he resorted to deception, in the hope of converting his defeat into victory.
   To stir up rebellion in the fallen race, he now represented God as unjust in permitting man to transgress his law.
 
   "Why", he said, when God knew what would be the result, did He permit man to be placed on trial, to sin, and to bring in misery, suffering and death?"

"THere are thousands today echoing the same rebellious complaint against God.

   They do not see that to deprive man of the freedom of choice would rob him of his prrogative as an intelligent being, and to make him a mere robotic creature.
 It is not God's purpose to force the will. Man was created as a free moral agent.
   

DD,

You said;

 
What was God's Law, you reference herein??

Petro

DD,

In like question what law is this?

But the plan of salvation made it possible for man again to be brought into harmony with God, and to render obedience to his law

The earthly Sanctuary was a PATTERN (blueprint so to speak) after the heavenly Sanctuary. Luciffer was once one of the covering cherubs over the heavenly Ark of God that held His ten Commandments Everlasting Covenant. The Ark has & had the MERCY Seat over it. (the Everlasting Gospel's Plan of the GodHead=Everlasting Gospel)

In Rev. we see that God permitted John to SEE INSIDE the Sanctuary of the Great Original's MOST HOLY PLACE, and there inside he saw the Ark of God.

When John was sent an angel from heaven, he was aw'struck, and fell down at the angels feet! And he was quickly reprimanded & told by the angel himself that he was as the prophets, and that no one was to be worshiped but God! (first four) BUT it did not END there, he also told him that THESE ALL KEPT THE SAYINGS OF THE BOOK! (the Word of God, ALL of it!)

We remember that when Christ died, the Vail went rent from top to bottom by an unseen hand making the way into THE MOST HOLY PLACE in heaven itself. And again the Ark of God is inside the Throne Room of the GodHead. And Christ is our High Priest in the Most Holy Place of heaven itself. (that end is not finished yet!)

---John

"...the devil...he was a murderer from the begining and abode not in the truth...for he is a liar and the father of it", (John 8:44).
 Now, what law is it that says: "Thou shalt not kill"?
  What Law says: "Thou shalt not lie" ?

DD,

That law, wasn't given 'till 500 years after Abraham, where there is is no law there is no transgression. (Rom 4)

I ask again, what law of God, are you refering that Satan tried to overthrow??

Petro

For the most part, I would agree-this is a very insightful assessment. What I would add is that man is not totally free anymore since the curse, for man is still under it and after coming to CHrist we still have the old nature. That's why Paul says, "That which I want to do, I cannot do, and that which I do not wnat to do, this I keep on doing." The key difference is GOd's sovereignty. "For many are called, few are chosen." And then with God's new Spirit in us, we become obedient, but not perfectly. We no longer have perfect choice, because of the corrupted flesh. But GOd always works in harmony with our wills, either by granting us willingness or breaking us down to willingness rather than letting us perish.

Youchers! Well, anyway, the law Paul is talking about is for man, and the context in which that verse is written does not apply here. Satan is clearly not man and was thrown out of heaven for a reason, that is his rebellion against God.

You're kiddin me, right ?
 You just answered it....'where there is no law...there is no transgression'.
  If Satan was a liar from the begining....there had to be a law that said: "Thou shall not lie"
 No one can break a law, if there is no law (where there is no law...there is no transgression).

 I'm not going to say God had the 10 commandments in heaven......BUT, there had to be some form of law.
 God's very words are law, if that helps.

And since you brought up the subject of abraham.....look at Genesis 26:5....."BECAUSE ABRAHAM OBEYED MY VOICE...MY COMMANDMENTS....MY LAWS"

 Where you got the idea that the commandments of God were started 5oo years after Abraham ....

Such reasoned thinking will not win many friends hereabouts.

Take care

Hitch

"UNPOPULAR TRUTH"   versus   "POPULAR ERROR"


The truth is never received as readily as a lie.
 That's why Satan is so successful...."SATAN, Which deceives the 'whole' world", (Revelation 12:9).

The Bible tells us the Satan is trying to act as 'Director' of the Christian world, (2 Corinthians 11:13-15).

Has he not already place Sunday as his day of worship before the people ?

And you were doing so well...

Now, don't tell me that the comment about the Sunday being of Satanic origin upset you ?

 I mean after all...any student of scripture knows about Daniel 7:25...."THINK TO CHANGE TIMES AND LAWS"...as refering to an Anti-Christ(ian)  power that changed of the 7th day Sabbath to...Sunday.

That ranks right up there with KJV only , you have to speak in tongues to be saved, and snake handling...

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Hitch,
a humble person is teachable, right? What does one do with
1 John 2:4 & Rev. 12:17.

'i' will tell you TRUTHFULLY that if you can find anyplace in my Master's Word where the 7th day Sabbath has been chaged to a Sunday worship by [CHRIST] i will keep that day!

But the poster gave the place in Dan. 7:25 where satan would attempt the change. Most seem to still accept this attempt?? Surely, that IS SPEAKING GREAT WORDS AGAINST THE MOST HIGH!?? (and chastizing the poor little poster :))

Who is it that you are judging?? The Scripture or the 'messinger'??? And the 'TIMES' thought? That is [A SANCTIFIED DAY] that GOD SET ASIDE [FOR HOLY USE], HIS SABBATH, long, long before a Jew came on the scene! IT IS THE MEMORIAL OF HIS CREATION!! Earths BIRTHDAY! (do you know what the word memorial means from Webster?)

Surely God would tell us THAT HE CHANGETH NOT? If He does not? OR THAT HE IS THE SAME YESTERDAY, TODAY, AND FOREVER? If He is??

Check the Christ's Word here in Psalms 135:13? (and what was the definition of MEMORIAL??)

"Thy Name O Lord, endureth for EVER; and [THY MEMORIAL], O LORD [THROUGHOUT *ALL GENERATIONS]." :)

That 'ain't'  Sunday!

---John  

*******
So what is the point??? Can the ones under Grace now commit adultery? Is that what you are saying?? Kill?, Steal?, It seems that every denomination of today have 'the supper LEGAL LEGALISTS in them too? Check most on here perhaps??

True FAITH is now different after the cross?? Is that what you are saying? Heb.11:13 says that these [ALL died in FAITH!] That mean saved by GRACE! Try Rom. 3:31.

These are the ones that the Master (mine) says... [IF] ye love me keep my commandments, too.  Personally, as for me? I DO LOVE HIM! And if He tells me to do so, there must be a way provided, huh? or does GRACE do away with His Everlasting Gospel [provisions], you know, the Words of inspiration written by Paul that ... "I can do ALL THINGS THROUGH CHRIST WHO STRENGTHENETH ME". Phil. 4:13?? Of course it is conditional of ones willingness to do so, huh,? The Holy Spirit only LEADS one to obey. See Rom. 8:14. Or Acts 5:32.

But it seems like a very 'sick love' to deny the Power OF CHRIST, that is seen again by Christ speaking Paul,
saying.. ".. [MY GRACE IS SUFFICIENT FOR THEE], [FOR MY STRENGTH IS MADE PERFECT IN WEAKNESS]," 2 Cor. 12:9.
Well, is it or is it not? It cannot be both ways! You know as well as I know what James penned about a FAITH that is d-e-a-d!?

And I trust that you also already know that Christ came to magnify HIS LAW AND MAKE IT HONORABLE. (HIS 'EPISTLE' of 2 Cor. 3:3)  See Isa. 42:21. You know? the 'lust' & the 'hate' thing of already commiting adultery, or already being a murderer? But you believe that you cannot be held accountable for these MAGNIFIED sins because of Grace, right?
Or is it just the 7th day Sabbath of the forth commandment that you are under grace to trample on?

'Under Grace Killers'  ??? That is not to appealing to the Everlasting Gospel 'me' thinks :'( :'(. Try Heb. 6:6!

Whatever??? Have it your way! See Obad. 16.
---John

 

Sorry John, I posted this in the wrong forum so I was going to move it and i deleted it only to find out you posted a response to so here it is again :-[

I posted this on another forum, but thought it also fit here.

What Is required in keeping the Sabbath according to Mosaic Law:

1. No work done at all (Ex. 20: 10; Lev. 23: 3; Jer. 17:21-22). No watering the lawn, no working in the yard, no hobbies, no surfing, no fixing flat tires, etc. By law if a person did not stop all types of activity in honor of the Sabbath, he was breaking the law. In Numbers 15:32-36 a man was caught collecting sticks on the Sabbath, and he received a rock concert from the people he knew.

2 No kindling of a fire (Ex. 35:3). No fellowship cookouts or barbecues. You can't go into a restaurant and get a hamburger that's been flame broiled, you can't cook eggs, or pancakes in the morning because you'd be kindling a fire for cooking. To drive a car would be to "kindle a fire" In the combustion chamber of your engine.

3. No traveling (Ex. 16:29). Later the Jews added to this law, allowing only a half mile of travel on the Sabbath which we see observed in the NT. But the pure law says "stay at home." Actually, If you kept this part of the law, you could not travel to your church gathering unless it was less than one-quarter mile away from home. If you had an emergency you could not drive to the hospital.

4. No trading (Amos 8:5). If you happened to need gas to get to church service, you could not "trade" money for gasoline. You would not be allowed to buy a cassette tape of that morning's message or a book at the store. There is to be No exchanging of money for goods. If you worked with stocks and you needed to sell you couldn’t.

5. No marketing (Neh. 10:31; 13:15,19). Make sure you do no shopping whatsoever. You can't buy any ice cream for dessert after dinner or anything else. If you run out of food or drink at home you can’t go out to purchase any, you can’t even by a stick of gum.

6."... a holy assembly with double the daily offering along with the other offerings. In other words, you are to give twice as much on the Sabbath (Num. 28:9).Do we practiced this today In compliance with Old Testament law. Do Sabbatarian's really practice the law? I have yet to see people go to Shabbat and give twice as much each week.

7. New showbread In the holy place (Lev. 24:. Of course this cannot be done today since there is no temple, so this part of the Sabbath cannot be followed by the church. The fact Is the Sabbath was not made for the gentiles, but for the Jews and their generations Ex. 31:12-17). It's a law given between God and the Jews.

8.The last part of the requirements for keeping the Sabbath day law Is the penalty for breaking It. DEATH

Of course you have followed all of this, right? Because if you just miss one the penalty is DEATH!

Those who worship on Saturday are not actually keeping God's command for the Sabbath, because they break the letter of the law. Especially when they try to lay guilt upon others for not keeping the Sabbath. Many say we are observing it by the Spirit of the law and then reinterpret it the way they want to. Either they practice by the letter which it is written in or they should admit to not upholding it correctly. When someone forces their practice upon others without upholding it themselves it then becomes legalism, and is hypocritical to say the least. Jesus dealt with the Pharisees, of whom he said, "they tie up heavy loads and lay them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger.' (Matt. 23:4) Those who seek to lay guilt on others for not keeping the Sabbath are practicing modern-day Pharsaism. They break the Sabbath themselves, but are ignorant of the laws requirements in the word of God. They become something they would certainly want to avoid.

Grace killers.

Thanks Drake, good teaching and you get one "BIG" AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMEN!!!!! ;D

My point is, Do you follow the requierment for keeping the sabbath? And don't try to turn it around on me. You are the one that is so dogmatic about keeping the Sabbath. So I was just asking if you follow the requierments.Thats all.

Quote from John the Baptist:
So what is the point??? Can the ones under Grace now commit adultery? Is that what you are saying?? Kill?, Steal?, It seems that every denomination of today have 'the supper LEGAL LEGALISTS in them too? Check most on here perhaps??

John, you know that those queations are nonsense.

Quote from John the Baptist:
Well, is it or is it not? It cannot be both ways!

That was my point in my post to you.

Another Quote form John the Baptist:
But you believe that you cannot be held accountable for these MAGNIFIED sins because of Grace, right?
Or is it just the 7th day Sabbath of the forth commandment that you are under grace to trample on?

You assume to much, and because someone doesn't believe we have to follow the seventh day sabbath,  You condemn anybody that doesn't agree with you or understand you.


Romans 14:4-13
Who ane you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand. One person esteems one day above another; and another esteems everyday alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. He who abserves the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks. For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself. For if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord's. For to this end Christ died and rose and lived again, that He might be Lord of Both the dead and the living. But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
For it is written: "As I live, says the Lord, Every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall confess to God."
So then each of us shall give account of himself to God. Therefore let us not judge one anothe anymore, but rather resolve this, not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in our brother's way.

With that said if you want to live under the Seventh day Sabbath, go ahead, but don't burden us that are not persuaded to follow that law ;)

Hay,
that is [my] point! Do [your] OWN THING? ??? Eccl. 12:13-14 & James 2:8-12 & 1 John 2:4 & Rev. 12:17, & Isa. 8:20 AND "If ye love me, keep my commandments" That is MY FREEDOM! And yes I can! See Phil. 4:13 & 2 Cor. 12:9 :)
---John

It must be remembered that it love for God that a person keeps the Sabbath.
 To reject the 'sign' of God is to reject God himself.
"YOU DON'T KEEP THE LAW TO BE SAVED......YOU KEEP THE LAW BECAUSE YOU ARE SAVED"

I am Praying For You


Brother Love :)

**********
John here:
You are right in saying that man is not the judge! Man (you) is daily & hourly telling God, (and every one else) who it is that you [love or do not love.] It is HIS WORDS, not 'fickle man'!! Accurate Record Books are kept! Eccl. 12:13-14.

THIS IS THE NEW [*ETERNAL] COVENANT of Heb. 13:20-21!
 
---"IF YOU LOVE ME, KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS"---  :) :)
and, the Inspired Word of the MASTER tells you WHOSE COMMANDMENTS THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT in Rev. 12:17..
---"*COMMANDMENTS OF GOD [and] *THE [TESTIMONY OF JESUS"!---

This is the ONLY bottom line test for these saved! Compare Isa. 8:20.
And BOTH of these are seen & read in the 2 Cor. 3:3 New Birth! IN *CONVERTED MANS, BORN AGAIN [MIND]! John 3:3.

It is Very sad to see that [you are saying] that your love is so 'lukewarm', & that you feel so [FREE] with His spewed out warning of Rev. 3:16-17, to still be bringing an offering to the Lord that is not even 'LukeWARM in love'!
Yet: You ARE RIGHT, Cain had been left with the DECISION of Obedience up to himself, by the Master Himself! And that is (was) your decision to make, not mine! See Gen. 4:7. :'( :'(

---John
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