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   The reality of evil in the world would seem to be in conflict with the idea of a God who is all powerfull and perfectly good. Why would God allow people to suffer?  

"Moreover, a love of pleasure has grown up with all of us from infancy. Therefore, this emotion has come to be in­grained in our lives and is difficult to erase. Even in our actions we use, to a greater or smaller extent, pleasure and pain as a crite­rion. For this reason, this entire study is necessarily concerned with pleasure and pain; for it is not unimportant for our ac­tions whether we feel joy and pain in the right or the wrong way. Again, it is harder to fight against pleasure than against anger, as Heraclitus says; and both virtue and art are always concerned with what is harder, for success is better when it is hard to achieve. Thus, for this reason also, every study both of virtue and of politics must deal with pleasures and pains, for if a man has the right attitude to them, he will be good: if the wrong attitude, he will be bad..."

(Aristotle, Nicomachean Ethics)

I think it might be helpfull to look at the philosophy of theodicy in the context of the one who started this kind of an inquiry. I strongly suggest that the link be followed and the quote examined in context for an in depth understanding of Lebniz theodicy. Leibniz wrote at length about the problem of evil in the world and suffering did not escape his attention. He cites the work of the Aristotlean, Thomas Aquinas, putting suffering both in perspective as philosophy and a Biblical issue:

"I grant the minor of this prosyllogism; for it must be confessed that there is evil in this world which God has made, and that it was possible to make a world without evil, or even not to create a world at all, for its creation has depended on the free will of God; but I deny the major, that is, the first of the two premises of the prosyllogism, and I might content myself with simply demanding its proof; but in order to make the matter clearer, I have wished to justify this denial by showing that the best plan is not always that which seeks to avoid evil, since it may happen that the evil is accompanied by a greater good. For example, a general of an army will prefer a great victory with a slight wound to a condition without wound and without victory. We have proved this more fully in the large work by making it clear, by instances taken from mathematics and elsewhere, that an imperfection in the part may be required for a greater perfection in the whole. In this I have followed the opinion of St. Augustine, who has said a hundred times, that God has permitted evil in order to bring about good, that is, a greater good; and that of Thomas Aquinas" http://www.class.uidaho.edu/mickelsen/texts/Leibniz%20-%20Theodicy.htm

Consider the words of Joseph to his brothers after they had caused him so much suffering and grief." Can we find the purposes of God in our suffering, is there a greater good at the end?

"But as for you , ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive." (Genesis 50:20)

I wont get into possible purposes for the Holocoust just yet but you might want to consider Gen. 50:24 when wondering at the unchanging purpose God has for Israel.

One of my all time favorite verses in all the Bible is an answer to Jobs worthless friends when they are trying to blame him for his misery. Just repent they tell him, you must have done something awefull and now your being punished, is their attitude. It proably never occured to these people that he was in trouble because God was going around braging about him. He responds to their presumptive rationalizations about how God is just and if Job is being punished its because he deserves it. Job argues passionatly that while the simple logic is perfectly true (God is just, God punishes the wicked), he hasnt done anything wrong. Frustrated he says things like this:

"Doubtless you are the people, and wisdom will die with you" (Job 12:2). and "Who doesnt know these things? (12:3)

Dont you just hate it when your in trouble and someone comes up and tells you what your problem is. You fall in a mud pit and cant get out and they say, 'well your all muddy because you traped in a mud pit.' Saying it is absolutly true and completely worthless, like the help files in MS Word.

" If only you would be altogether silent!
For you, that would be wisdom" (Job 13:5)

To paraphrase I think he is saying, Do something intelligent, shut up!

One of my favorite people in the Bible is very simular to Job. A guy is born blind and of course the religious believe the God being just, this must be deserved. "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" (John 9:2)

Now I have a tendancy when I hear a question like this to go off into a rant about presumption but this one is almost too easy. Then there is the question of how someone sins bad enough before they are even born to deserve to be born blind.

Jesus just says , "Neither...but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life" (John 9:3)

One of the things that are worth considering when you think about the realty of suffering si that sometimes there is something worth it all at the end. Job is grilled by God, who is speaking from a whirlwind (tornado) with a lot of questions that can only be answered correctly with either, I dont know, or you Lord. Then he looks at Jobs friends and says that they not only didnt know what they were talking about but he will forgive them only if sacrifices and prayers are offered by " My man Job". This is the praise that come from God as opposed to the praise that comes from men. I just thoug

Thank You, oholiab,  and Welcome here to this forum;

Speaking of suffering, imagine what a burden it was for Jesus, to know and carry with Him (humanly speaking) that he came to earth to die for the sins of the whole world.

Only the Spirit of God in Him, sustained His human nature, during his life on earth.

That the promise to them that believe, might give us consolation, in that He sacrificed himself that we might live.


This is the promise;

But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. (Rom 8:11)


God Bless,

Petro

Hi, John here:
Being created in the image of God brings a perfect creation with a FREE THINKING WILL, and responsibility! (conditions!) It was this MATURITY of our 'will' that God could not create us with. (perfection of Character) This HAD to be developed. (other/wise we would be as robots & brain/less!  ;), and not in His image)

All provisions (Rom. 8:1) were ETERNALLY present [IN CHRIST]!! See John 15:5's verse which is often silent in ones 'spiritual' sight?

Heb.'s speaks of OTHER WORLD'S in the plural. And Luciffer & 1/3 of the perfectly created angels at their start, became MATURE IN THE WRONG DIRECTION! See James 1:15's END of sin. Also 1 John 5:16-17's verses of 'sin' NOT UNTO DEATH & SIN UNTO DEATH. The differance is their Mature ending! Do you remember what was in the midst of the Garden of Eden? The 'forbidden tree'? Why was it there?  

Just think of it this way? [We MUST] have the STARTING point of Being BORN AGAIN to be equal to Adam & Eve in their created 'spiritual' perfection's start! (not physical) Now & only now are we perfect in the first faze of perfection, it is UP TO US ALSO to use the Provisions provided. (Christ POWER IN US! [*IF?] Phil. 4:13-2 Cor. 12:9)

ALL ELSE IS SIN. And this Freedom to choose other than Christ, that is ALWAYS present, brings again, 'BONDAGE', sickness, perversion, death, decay, and ALL of the questions that you bring up + ALL others! these are not Gods creation, [desire] or will!!! :'( :'(  And finally Obad. 16.

All sin is of the evil one. Yet, he wants the [finished end] of ones sin. And there is a reason for that also. Perhaps at a later thread or time?  

Read Gen. 4:7 for ones MATURE 'DESIRE' & for who now had his 'l'ordship. This is the FINISHED END of James 1:15 & of what any sin becomes! Also see 1 John 5:16-17 & Psalms 19:13's free choice. One might never know how close David & some of 'us' have come to the finished ending?? Saul also?? (Paul) One thing is for sure, Christ told us that the one that has sinned most, loves most.

---John

Thats some REAL Spam

For and about you JTB ;D

2Cor. 11:14-15 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.