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Whats your opinion on who this will be,  you bible scholars and christains?  I have heard various opinions on who it will be,  this is the latest........some say it will be the next Pope!  Now you know this leader will have oodles and oodles of followers and will be chrismatic, he is already here.......or do you thing he hasn't been born yet?  What do you think on this subject.....Are we or are we not in the end days? Has the bible already forfilled itself in many ways and continues to do so?   Things in the middle east have certainly been falling into place, haven't they? My! My! My!  The rapture?

Sabrina (ah, what a beautiful name)

If one believes in the pre-tribulation, then one won't know who the anti-christ is, because he won't show himself until 3 1/2 years into the tribulation.

If these are the end days, then "he" has been born, but one doesn't know who he is.

If one looks at it from another point of view, the "last days" are from the time of Jesus Christ until even now.

According to catholic tradition, there's one more pope left after this one.  That one will supposedly rule with the anti-christ.  That pope will defect from the church (or fall away, if you will.)

Grace and peace,
cris

I'm of the impression that the Antichrist spoke of in Revelations is a spirit (1 John 4:2-3), however, like many spirits, this manifests itself in the form of many people and organizations (Matthew 24:5, Matthew 24:24, 2 John 1:7, 1 John 2:18, ) that oppose Christianity and seek to undermined the values of the churches, whether by Heretical teachings (Sure as cults where the leader claims to be Jesus) or in direct opposition to the church (as we can see in groups like the ACLU and Communism, that are activity involved in trying eradicate the Christian culture and way of life).

Yes, we are in the Last days. I believe the last days started when Jesus transcended into Heaven, and they will last a while longer. Things in the Middle East have been falling into place for Thousands of years, even before Jesus came, the Middle East had been falling into place for the last days.

As for the rapture... don't get me started again...

Well the antichrist has to make a peace treaty with Isreal and then break it in 3 1/2 years.......but we should know who he is as soon as the peace treaty comes about.  Now that is very interesting what you said about the Pope, because  some one just the other day....said the same thing to me.

That's true about the peace treaty with Israel.  I had forgotten about that.

Tibby we are all in spirit............we have flesh covering us to a certain degree.......but the anti christ will be in the flesh and he will fool a lot of souls into following him.  This is going to be an ugly time.  But my point is that it is really in the last days....yes it is true no one knows the hour day nor minute.  Will we believe it when it happens?..........Will we know what we are looking for?  

You asked and you received. I'm sorry that you don't like my interpretation, but if you didn't want to know...

Anyways, I cannot agree with much of what you said in that last post. Are you trying to say that our Bodies are nothing more then a disposable covering for our souls? That, my sweet Sabrina, is heresy! Such teachings are borderline Gnostic!

I agree, we are in the last days, as I sad before, he have been in the last days for about 2000 years so far.

Thanks to the teachings of St. Malachy, I think we now know whatto look for. ;) ;D

These bodies will be discarded! That's not heresy.

The Bible is very clear that satan will be tossed down to earth from outer space by the Archangel Michael and God's army of angels. satan will then possess the human body of a "great leader" who will be seen as a peacemaker, and will literally sign a seven year peace treaty. satan will enter the rebuilt temple and proclaim himself to be God. satan will implement the mark of the beast, a cashless society will be developed where none shall buy or sell unless they have the "mark". satan will persecute and execute as many Jews, and post Rapture Christian converts as he can. satan will lead his armies against Israel in the great and final battle which ushers in the second coming of the physical Jesus and His armies (Raptured Saints)

 This is not a "spiritual" satan, it is the physical, literal, evil demonic being that Jesus warned us about throughout the entire Bible, Old and New.

Hey Bronze,

You've been missin' from the board for awhile.  

I noticed!!! ;)

Hope you've been okay!

Grace and peace,
cris

So, what you are saying is that when the body dies, that is it, we will be spirit alone for the rest of Eternity? Are you saying, once dead, we will never see our bodies again? Are you saying the Resurrection of the body is not true? Because if so, then yes, that is heresy you are speaking! That is what the Gnostics teach! It has been Heresy almost as long as the Church has been around!

Very Interesting - http://www.666beast.net/

God bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

tHANK YOU bRONZESNAKE......Apparently someone besides me is reading the Bible closely.......No Tibby of course I believe that the dead will be raised up, and those who are in Christ will have themselves regenerated.....as to this is one of the wonders of the Lords power....miracles!!!!!  Much like when Lazareth was raised from the dead after 3 days with the blood running threw his veins as if nothing had happenned to him at all.  So shall we be......but it is no secret that these bodies only house the ours spirits and this is the only way we can live in this earthly life.  When we see our heavenly father we will be in the spirit form.  That's why things of this world are not to be treasured because they will not be with us......nothing crosses over but the spirit.  The Lord owns our soul if we follow him.......and of course some souls will be lost to satan......many of them.......thats sort of our job while we are here we.....are to spread the good news and minimize the losses as much as possible.  Copper is right the antichrist will be a human being that we can touch , smell and feel........he will be real and everything that will come out of his mouth will be a lie designed to trick and decieve.  Again I thank you for your wonderful comments....have a blessed day.

 In The Revelation where do you find 'antichrist' ? Antichrist is only mentioned in the little Books of John.

Not that I said the antichrist is in the book of Revelations......and of course I know where it is mentioned in the Bible as you do I call your attention to Revelation 16 verses12-16.....it doesn't come right out and say the Antichrist......but makes a strong reference.  That if you of the belief that the anti christ and satan are one and the same!
I have my own thoughts on that matter.  Thanks for the comment.

What does any of that have to do with anything? You and BS are talking about our bodies being discarded, and that is Gnostic. We are Body, mind, and spirit, Sabrina. Anything else would be heresy.

And how DARE you imply that anyone who doesn’t agree with you does no seriously read their bible. You are NOT infallible, keep that in mind before you run your mouth off like that again.

I'm not here to offend anyone Tibby......so back down.......this is just a point of discussion...and we can certainly agree to disagree in a Christain spirit.  I'm wondering where you are coming from this this herasy stuff.......wheres your scriptual support......or are you just speaking your opinion.  I'm certainly not out to make you mad or angry....so calm down.  That's what is so beautiful about us human being......everyone thinks differently according to where they have been in their life.  Now me I want proof straight from the bible.....and I want to read it for myself/////////so I welcome you to show me where you are getting your information from.  I'll be waiting!   Have a Blessed Day.

If you do not want to get into it, then do not say things like "Apparently someone besides me is reading the Bible closely" in the Debate board, seety. ;)

I honestly can't believe I'm debating the Resurrection of the body on a Christian Board! THis is something ALL CHRISTIANS that are not Heretics argee on!

Allow me to quote Zakdar from a different post:


We are three-fold (1 thessalonians 5:23). You are denying who man is, as defined by the bible, by saying the body is just a disposable covering for the soul. The Gnostics believe we are spirit in a temporary body, too, and they are Heretics of the highest order. Are you going to tell me the Gnostics are not Heretics? What you are tryign to say is a major Gnostic teaching!

Your body is not like a dirty diaper! Don't you know it is the Temple of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 6:19)?

Tibby,

I think that I see the confusion here.

Christians will certainly NOT spend eternity with JESUS in these bodies we have on earth. We will be given GLORIFIED BODIES at God's appointed time. We will spend eternity with JESUS in GLORIFIED BODIES, NOT these bodies of clay.

Tibby, this is just one of the promises of God. There will be no pain any longer, and those with broken bodies will be free of them. We won't need wheelchairs, crutches, and canes for eternity.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 5:17-18  For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)  Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

While I agree that our bodies are the temples of the Holy Spirit we are also told that our vile bodies will be changed in the twinkling of an eye.


Phi 3:21  Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

This new body that we will receive is a body that will not die. Is it spirit? I don't think so. This verse also says that it will be like the body of Jesus Christ's glorified body. The Bible does not give us specifics on this but we know that it is a body that will not die, it is a body that can be seen by all in this world and it is a body that can be touched by those of this world.

We see this again in the following verses:

1Co 15:51  Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54  So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Co 15:55  O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
1Co 15:56  The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.


Take note in verse 51 that it says we will not all sleep. This is indicating that not all will die before the rapture. It goes on to say that all will be changed.

Yes, these boys will be changed, into something holy. Our bodies are by no means one-time-use cameras. I understand what she was trying to say, but it is wrong. Our bodies will be Resurrected and sanctified.

I think we are talking about the seed.. that God will turn into a flower, No matter where or how it was planted  :)


God bless

 Nope. I'm saying our sin bodies will be discarded, and we will receive new eternal bodies.

 Come on Tibby, lighten up my brother - there's no need to get ugly my friend.

Sometimes we all get enthusiastic about our understanding of scriptures. Sabrina takes the Bible literally, as do many others including myself. It's useless to try and prove the Bible is literal or spiritual, or a combination of both. We all believe in Jesus and that's what will save us, not necessarily our understanding of the Bible.

I guess your right. I’m getting to overworked. However, I still stand, the Resurrection of the body means our bodies will be Resurrected, made whole and holy, and reunited with our spirit, and then we will be full humans, as God meant for us to be. This is basic Christian Dourine, and to imply our bodies are just garbage to be tossed out is Heresy taught by the Gnostics.  :-\

Sorry that I keep causing trouble over and over again, guys. :-\

Brother Tibby,

There is absolutely nothing Gnostic about stating the fact that we won't be spending eternity with Jesus in these bodies. Maybe you are arguing semantics, but maybe not. I really don't know, but I do know with all certainty that we will be spending eternity with JESUS with Glorified Bodies, NOT these bodies we have now. This is a promise of God - plain and simple. There is no heresy involved with repeating a Promise of God. UNLESS, you wish to argue that God never made such a promise. If so, the Promise has already been quoted.

Love In Christ,
Tom

2 Corinthians 5:20-21  Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

I guess maybe so. :-\

Certainly we will have bodies, but they wont be like the ones we have now.

1Co 15:50  Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.


1Jo 3:2  Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Seems to explain it as well as we can understand it now.

Grace and Peace!

Our bodies will they be like they are now? Will those who do not have limbs be the same?  When the disciples saw Jesus after His resurection was He blood covered? His body was different. Read the accounts there is one in Luke and one in John, maybe more. They read like HE could change His appierance.


I sure hope my spelling is changed  :P

Brothers and Sisters,

Maybe some of the young folks still have bodies with all of the parts working and no pain.  :D  Some of the older folks can't say that. However, the Glorified Body we will be given for eternity with JESUS will be perfect. Everything will work, and there will no longer be any pain. Nobody, even the young ones, will miss the old body of flesh.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Ephesians 2:1-7  And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)  And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

As I said before:

he Resurrection of the body means our bodies will be Resurrected, made whole and holy...

Maybe it means something different to you, but to me, Made whole means fixed, returned to their peak.

Or, maybe because they were not like Him, they each saw Him differently.  That could account for Him looking like He changed appearance.  It just might be saying something to each one of us, also. ;)

Grace and peace,
cris

When is a human body at its peak?

Could be Cris they saw Him when God "opened" their eyes. I think that is about what you said  ???


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I love topics about  an antichrist in the book of Revelations.

How about 'antichrist' in the little books of John ? God tells us plainly who is antichrist.


1 John 2:18

18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
KJV

1 John 2:22

22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
KJV

1 John 4:3

3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
KJV

2 John 7

7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
KJV

Reba,

I'm not sure when a human body is at it's "peak".  I'm not even sure what that means.  Could be maybe like Adam and Eve's body before the fall?

I didn't look at it as God opening their eyes.  Since they didn't recognize Him, I thought it was unbelief that caused a person to see something other than what really is.  It is my understanding that none of the apostles really believed who He was until after the resurrection.  This is where I believe God finally opened their eyes.  But, I think that's what you meant in the first place. :P

Grace and peace,
cris

Tibby,

It's stated completely differently in the Holy Bible, and I'll believe that one. Maybe you can ask God if you can keep your old body.  ???

Cris,  The stories,  in John 21 and Luke 24 are after the resurection.

Reba,

Yes, I know that.  I'm not making myself clear.  I'll try again.

It wasn't that they didn't recognize Him because He was changing His appearance, but rather because of who THEY were.  It was their unbelief that blinded them.  I also said that maybe because they were not LIKE Him, they couldn't recognize Him, that is, until their eyes were opened.

I have a problem explaining what I'm really thinking, sometimes.  Sorry!

Grace and peace,
cris

 

Tibby,

How do you respond to the verse...

1Co 15:50  Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

in regards to your understanding of the resurrection?


I am in no way trying to pick a fight here  :D  just trying to understand what you are saying...when you say we will raised whole and the spirit rejoined (or however you said it).

Just a little confused by your comments at the moment.

Rev 13:4  And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
Rev 13:5  And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
Rev 13:6  And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.


Obviously the dragon is Satan.   Who is the Beast?   Note that they worship both Satan and the Beast.

Also note the contrast to verse 4 above to...

Exo 15:11  Who is like unto thee, O LORD, among the gods? who is like thee, glorious in holiness, fearful in praises, doing wonders?


A pretty arogant fellow this beast is.

2Th 2:4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.



Would you call this an opponent of Christ, or One who denies Jesus as God in the flesh?   Does this fit the description of 1 John 2:22, 1 John 4:3, 2 John 7?



2 John 7

7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.


Rev 13:8  And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Its certainly difficult not to give this Beast the title Antichrist from what I see in scripture.   Not only does he deny Everything of God, but He deceives the entire unsaved world to do the same by worshiping him and declaring himself God.   Yup, thats an Antichrist if there ever was one.

Grace and Peace!

 

1 John 2:18

18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
KJV

1 John 2:22

22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
KJV

1 John 4:3

3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
KJV

2 John 7

7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
KJV

I have never read where satan denies the Jesus is who He is. IF satan did not believe Jesus is who He is in the flesh would he have had all those babies killed?   The olny place in Scripture that  speaks of 'antichrist' is John and in those Books i do not read them to say  " thee antichrist" as in  one guy.

Reba,

You are arguing in semantics. Anyone that is against Jesus Christ is anti-christ. Who is more against Jesus than Satan himself?

Just because the word "anti-christ" is not used it does not mean that they are not against Jesus.

The term "The Anti-christ" was given to this person in Revelations because he will be a very major player in deceiving so many the world around and doing all he can against Jesus Christ.

1Jo 4:2  Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

Can Satan confess that Jesus came in the flesh according to this verse?  If so, then he must be of God, which we know he isn't  ;)

EDIT TO ADD:  I know the verse about demons knowing and trembling, but obviously they cannot confess this truth.

Grace and Peace!

One more thing to touch on here...

Taking the verse in the little books of John, ANYone who does these things is an antichrist.   Well, the beast is one who does these things and leads the entire world into deception in a grand way.   I agree with you that anyone can be an antichrist using Johns description, but that would certainly include the Beast of Revelation.   Thus many calling Him THE antichrist...due to the power given him to lead the whole world into deception.

Love ya Reba!   I know we've been around and around on this topic....not sure why it never gets old talking with you about it though.   :D

Grace and Peace!

 This is silly. Where does all evil and lies and murder and every vile disgusting and perverted thought and action origionate from? satan!!

 satan is the father of antichrist. satan is "the" antichrist. It doesn't specifically state "satan is the antichrist" in the Bible, but it is a fact non the less. Why keep arguing against the obvious?

 From now on, whenever you see one of us stating that "the antichrist" will come, just remember that we are talking about satan. There's no good reason to keep on arguing about it every time the subject comes up. The Bible doesn't specifically state "Jesus is God" it's reality though. There are numerous scriptures which prove beyond a shadow of any doubt that Jesus is God. satan is "the antichrist" - he's the father of antichrist - without satan there can be no antichrist.

Let it go my sister. :D

Please don't get angry at me Reba, I'm not trying to start any trouble with you, but I really believe you are missing the big picture on this one my sister.

I know the following question doesn't belong on this thread but could you guys answer it anyway.  Didn't want to start a new thread on a simple question, but if somesome wants to move it, that's okay with me.

Isn't it true that Jesus' followers didn't REALLY believe He was the Son of God until after He resurrected?  That's when they were sure, correct?

Thanks.

Grace and peace,
cris

 Good question my friend.
Peter knew. Jesus told them who He was before He died. He also did things that only God could do, but I believe these men were absolutely shocked at actually walking and living with Jesus. It most certainly must have been a bizarre situation for them to actually try to put the fact that Jesus was God into perspective.

 Most certainly, when they saw Jesus walking, breathing and talking after He was dead, they were emboldened to the point of willingly sacrificing their lives in order to spread the Gospel. Quite a change from running away and denying they even knew Jesus like they did after Jesus was captured.

  The term anticrist is given to a person in The Revelatin by man. God did not choose to use the term but man seem bent on its use. What does the Word say about antichrist. The verses have been posted. Who are we to change Gods Word to fit our theology.  Again the scripture tell us plainly who is antichrist.

I almost agree with ya Tim ;D

Just remember although we  say 'Johns description" it is Gods discription.   Scripture does not use the term for a single person.

2:18 ....many antichrists

4:3 .....spirit of antichrist

7  ..... what a antichrist is

Sorry i did read this tell now. Had i, i would not have posted again.

Well i am sorry you  say it is silly to hold to the words of scripture, you are the moderator...
 my thoughts dont seem to be welcome in this thread..bye guys

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v311/randers/merry_go_round_lg_nwm.gif)

 ??? Huh? How do you come to such a conclusion?. My being a moderator has nothing to do with my right to post and reply to posts. I'm a poster just like everone else Reba. I was posting here for years before I became a moderator.

 

Greetings from North Central Kansas!   Don't have much time as I am in pursuit of Dorothy's great nemisis  ;D    I'll post pics if I find it!   ;)



Reba says:

Don't hurt yourself now....lol   j/k



I think I understand what you are saying sister, but doesn't Gods description, also not exclude the Beast as an antichrist?  I am pretty positive this is what most people mean when they use the reference for that person in Rev.   I have never felt anyone was trying to add or take away from anything by using the term (which I hope I explained well enough).   Anyhoo, I know you have strong feelings about this so I wouldn't want you to damage your convictions in order to see it my way....So for unity's sake, I will refer to the beast as "the beast" from hence forth....fair enough?    :D    :)

Grace and Peace!

MY! MY! MY! This has certainly been a lively discussion.....I have been reading most of the thoughts and they are very impressive to say the least.  This is such a revelevant subject given the times we are living in now.  Imagine what the masses know or don't know about this ....how will they collectively agree on who or just what the antichrist is or isn't, which I fear can result in a lot of lost souls. Thanks for the feedback and keep it coming.

After reading all four pages of this topic, I am left a little confused. Because to main topic got replaced.

Who says that the anti-Christ is a he? The original text, (interlinear Bible) says 'it' not he, or him. And this was the stand of the Church until the mid-eighteen hundreds or so. Which once again puts in question the so-called infalliblity of the KJV. But that is a locked forum, so I won't go there.
But has anyone even considered that it could just as easily, and more probably be figurative language? Not literal, at all.
The early scholars didn't believe what the mainstream teaches about the book of Revelation today. It's not in chronological order, it's not literal obviously because not one so-called prophecy teacher has ever been right, or even close. It's been a guessing game based on presuppositions.
I can't remember for sure who it was, but someone wrote a book called 88 Reasons Why Jesus will Return in Eighty Eight. Or something like that. Well, it didn't happen obviously. That book, as so many that proceeded it are just fuel for the fire.

If you already have a preconcieved idea about anything, it's next to impossible to be taught or accept anything new regardless of the abundance of information presented. Because it enters the comfort zone, and therefore is labeled heresy by those who have made up their minds, who think they understand Revelation. I don't, and am not claiming to.
But I do know some things through long and tedious study, and from having a good teacher.

No one here even stayed on the subject, it went from Revelation to whether or not we will have a physical body at the ressurection.
Is it okay to revive the original topic? I'll give it a shot.

Firstly, the Bible does not teach pre-trib rapture, that is a total lie. The bible says that we are going to be changed AT THE LAST TRUMP. I Cor 15:52

I'm no rocket scientist, but if I had one cookie on a plate, and my wife ate it. That's it no more cookies for me after that. Seven more cookies don't appear out of thin air. It's illogical. Or three and 1/2 if your a mid-tribber. ;D

Figurative, NOT literal.

Revelation 17:1,3,5,9,15,18 -- I will show unto thee the Judgement of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters -- and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast -- having seven heads and ten horns - and upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS -- the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sitteth -- the waters which thou sawest,

where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues -- the woman which thou sawest is that great city which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

harlot - Greek: porne - idolator; to sell

Genesis 11:1,4 --The whole earth was of one language and one speech -- they said let us build us a city and a tower and let us make us a name

language - Hebrew: sepheth - lip or- boundary line.

speech - Hebrew: dabar - arrangement; spoken commandment

city and tower - considered a sovereign kingdom with its own boundary and law (commandment/instruction) (called a mountain)

name - Hebrew: shem - authority; honor; fame

Genesis 2:16 17 -- of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat - But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shall not eat of it.

Genesis 3:1,5 The serpent was more subtil than any beast -- (the serpent said) in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and "ye shalt be as gods" --

The sin of the harlot (self-worship) started with Eve and the original beast (the serpent). He ruled Eve and Adam by causing them to move the boundary of God (thou shalt) taking in forbidden boundary (thou shalt not). This established a new law of self-esteem (pride). Eve, the original harlot (idolator), rode upon the beast (serpent), polluting the people (Adam). After the flood, Nimrod reinstituted, at Babel (Babylon), the rebellion of Eden, setting up a new boundary (city and tower), and a new commandment (name or authority). Pride (let us make a name) is the foundation of "all" idolatry (spiritual harlotry) that has polluted the world for all time. It is the system of self-worship. (Repent means to turn from self to God). Babel began a series of "world order" beast (ruling) systems (Dan. 2:31-45; 7:3-7). These empires, (beasts) ruled all the civilized world and fell as one conquered the other (Babylon, Persia/Medes, Greece, Rome. etc). The harlot was the ancient Chaldean idolatry passed down through the empires in the form of Greek and Roman gods (mystery religions). Outlawed in Rome, the worship of idols was reinstituted in the Roman church by Constantine (the deadly wound healed - Rev. 13:3). America has dispensed with icon (statue) worship and retained the "self-esteem" (pride) system of Rome/Babylon and is polluting the world with it. Babylon fell once as a literal empire never to rise again (Jer. 51:26). The second time she will fall as a wicked idolatrous religious system of "self-esteem" and "pride". (Babylon is fallen, is fallen - Rev. 18:2). Revelation 18 shows that it is a material system of wealth and self. America is "New Babylon". The beast (world order), the waters (peoples, multitudes, nations, tongues) and the 7 heads (7 mountains- 7 world systems) are all the same throne where the harlot sits. A mountain was the seat of a ruling empire (Jer. 51:25). Throughout scripture, Babylon is a system of pride. Paul said that covetousness (wanting more for self) is idolatry (Eph. 5:5; Col. 3:5). The "new world order" will be the last "beast" that God will destroy. (Rev. 13:1; 19:19-20)

Anti-Christ, mean anyone, or any (system) that opposes God's boundry. His word, ALL of it is his boundry for us who believe in Him as our only savior. If we change, or try to move that boundry set up by God, we are by definition a Satan (an adversary one who withstands) as in Ps 109:6, or an anti-Christ!


This is enough for now. Any comments, rebuttals, name-calling, whatever. welcome.

a mathetes of Jesus.

Hello Onesheep.

Are you saying the entire bible is figurative? Or just the New Testament? Or just Revelations?

First off, Revelations is absolutely in chronological order. That is not contested by the most respected biblical scholars my friend. If you read carefully you will see that what appears to be repeated events, are actually the same events being described from two perspectives - one from the perspective of earth and one from the perspective of Heaven - both describe the same events simultaniously but from these two perspectives. Once you recognise this, you will be able to see the chronology much easier.

It seems as though you do not believe there is a literal satan who literaly gets tossed out of the heavens and down to earth.

Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,  

Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.  

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.  

Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.  

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.  

Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, [ye] heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.  

Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man [child].

 These verses are not figurative - they constitute a very detailed account of a very literal event.

There is a Rapture - It is not a lie just because you don't believe it my friend. If thatw as the case then Jesus would be a lie, many people don't believe in Him either.

Those who dismiss the Rapture can never really explain verses such as these without relegating the verses to "myth" or "figurative language" seems all too convienient - I don't believe it, so it's figurative and mythical.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.  

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.  

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.  

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:
This is a major stumbling block to those who don't believe the Rapture. It clearly says "the trump of God" Go search the entire N.T. and show me where else the trump of God is found. It's not the seventh trump - the seventh trump is blown by an angel, not God Himself. This is a major key.
The last trump of God is the signal for the Rapture, as these verses clearly describe. Read on and see what happens immediately following the final trump of God...

and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.  

Pay close attention to what's going on here my friend. Jesus isn't on His white horse. Jesus isn't arriving with a universe wide lightning bolt. Jesus is not returning to earth with His saints. Jesus doesn't touch the ground. Jesus  descends from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: Jesus raises His faithful up to the CLOUDS to MEET HIM in the AIR.
 
Act 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.  

Act 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;  

Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.  

Read these verses and pay close attention to what's going on.

Rev 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed [are] they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.  

Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See [thou do it] not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Do you see it? Here's John talking with what John believes is an angel. Only it turns out to be a man and not an angel at all! What are living men doing in heaven before the second coming my friend? The second coming is about to occur in the folloing verse. These verses are in chronological order, you can not argue that fact.


Now compare these following second coming verses to the Rapture verses from 1Thes 4 and try to pick out the major differences.

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Jesus is on His white horse here, and about to make war and judgment. In the Rapture verses, Jesus is not depicted on a horse at all, and there's no mention of war or judgment.


Rev 19:12 His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.  

This depiction of Jesus is nowhere to be found in the Rapture verses.


Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.  

This depiction of Jesus is nowhere to be found in the Rapture verses either.


Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.  

In this verse we are following Jesus on white horses and we have received our reward. We are coming from Heaven with Jesus down to earth.

In the Rapture verses we are not on horses, we do not have our reward, and we are being raised from the earth up to Heaven. The total opposite of what Rev 19:14 depicts.


Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.  

These Revelation (second coming)verses make a clear distinction from the 1Thes 4 verses - they can not be confused as being the same events - the reason is obvious to any who would accept that God does not pour His wrath upon His faithful servants. What kind of God do we think He is? Even sinful men don't reward their faithful children with a snake instead of a fish.


Which of these two are true...

1) God does pour His wrath upon His faithful servants

2)God does not pour His wrath upon His faithful servants

Either He does, or He doesn't. It can't be both ways. If you believe He does, then I challenge you to give even a single sripture to back that up.
Remember, it wasn't God who cursed Job, it was satan.

Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath [is] in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.  

Good luck

Snake-

The "my friend" diatribe is unnecessary.It sounds very belittling. I'm not your friend obviously, if I do not agree with you. I do believe in the parousia (physical arrival) of Jesus Christ so let's just clear that up first.

I will take my time looking over and studying all that you wrote, and reply in a day or two.

Till then.

One Sheep,

Are you REALLY saying that brothers in Christ can't be friends if they disagree on very difficult portions of Bible Prophecy?

If so, that's a very sad position to take. Brothers and sisters in Christ should be able to discuss differences and maintain fellowship and friendship. Discussing differences can be a learning experience for everyone and can be part of our fellowship.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Galatians 6:9-10 NASB  Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary. So then, while we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, and especially to those who are of the household of the faith.

Amen Tom.

Jesus says we are to love others as we love ourselves - Jesus says we are brothers and sisters.

If my calling you "my friend" comes off as belittling, then you have a problem my friend.

Jesus is the greatest friend that we can ever have. I thank God that He does not turn His back on me just because I may not be 100% right on such subjects as this.

"Brothers and sisters in Christ should be able to discuss differences and maintain fellowship and friendship. Discussing differences can be a learning experience for everyone and can be part of our fellowship. "

Yes, but there are some factors that are getting overlooked here.
1. 1Cr 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and [that] there be no divisions among you; but [that] ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

The same thing=lego, to speak, teach, affirm, and so on.

It has the basic same meaning as confessing Christ.
Homolegeo, or of the same, and words.

And if we are not speaking the same words, then we cannot be friends according to the Bible, it's not my opinion. This is how iron sharpens iron.

If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into [your] house, neither bid him God speed:

god speed, chairo, rejoice with, hail etc.

A few verses before this Paul mentions confess, which is again homolegeo or, saying the same thing as another, agree with.

We are to agree with God, if we choose to save face with each other, and are not speaking the same thing that Jesus spoke, then we cannot be friends with God according to the bible. That would make us anti-christ wouldn't it?

I'm not trying to be contentious, this is what the bible says. Do you deny this?

I don't believe that the bible teaches a pre-trib, and I will present the reasons why. But I will not agree to disagree, the bible does not teach that.

So, when you called me friend, it was not in love, not really, because you ended your letter with "good luck" Or, I'm right and you are wrong but please humor us.

Jesus said that we are his friends IF we do whatsoever he commands us.
How can two walk together except they agree?

I will send you the reasons why I don't see the pre-trib. If you choose to engage them, cool. If not, that's fine too. But I hope you will at least seriously consider the reasons. Then, you can lock me out of the forum, won't be the first time.

a mathetes of Christ.

With a contentious attitude such as that I can see why you got "locked out" of other forums.

1Co 4:21  What will ye? shall I come unto you with a rod, or in love, and in the spirit of meekness?

If you look at the verse of 1Cor 1:10 and look at the verses before and after it you will see that it is speaking of the teaching of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

2Jo 1:10  If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

You reference this verse also. Again this is talking of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.



1Co 14:36  What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?

You know one sheep, thats not a very good Christian behavior.  

With your statement of being locked out of a forum. That makes me wonder, if you have been banned from Christians Unite  before.

Resting in the arms, of Jesus.
Bob

2 Samuel 22:18 He delivered me from my strong enemy, and from them that hated me: for they were too strong for me.

onesheep.

Your posts all have an angry edge to them.

When I said "good luck" it wasn't meant as a sarcastic inuendo. It would appear that you take things in the same veign as you give them - angy and self rightious.

I said "good luck" in reference to the question I asked...

Which of these two are true...

1) God does pour His wrath upon His faithful servants

2)God does not pour His wrath upon His faithful servants

Either He does, or He doesn't. It can't be both ways. If you believe He does, then I challenge you to give even a single sripture to back that up.
Remember, it wasn't God who cursed Job, it was satan.

Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath [is] in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.  

Good luck    

I believe you didn't answer the question because you couldn't, and instead you got beligerant about it.

Take care my friend.
 

Amen Pastor Roger!

one sheep obviously took the Scripture out of context and used it for his own purposes. What those purposes are, I don't know, but they don't appear to be peaceful.

Love In Christ,
Tom

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 NASB  Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass.

Bronzesnake-

Are you serious? We are not supposed to get angry, or be blunt? Sorry, that's not true. Look up the original meanings of words, and you will see that Paul said I do not come with enticing words, I Cor 2:4 enticing/ peitho
persuade

a) to persuade, i.e. to induce one by words to believe

b) to make friends of, to win one's favour, gain one's good will, or to seek to win one, strive to please one

c) to tranquillise

d) to persuade unto i.e. move or induce one to persuasion to do something

2) be persuaded

a) to be persuaded, to suffer one's self to be persuaded; to be induced to believe: to have faith: in a thing

1) to believe

2) to be persuaded of a thing concerning a person

b) to listen to, obey, yield to, comply with

3) to trust, have confidence, be confident


Jesus came baring a sword, not peace. Not for an unbeliever anyway. If we are told that we must agree to disagree, then that is a false doctrine, and we are told to be angry at it. I'm not here to make people mad, I didn't write these words. People get mad when their theology gets challenged. You , and this other person are saying that I'm an angry person for no reason, or a trouble maker, when I'm really not, I'm just direct. And no, I've never been kicked out of this particular forum before.

You bronzesnake, asked if I believe that the whole bible is literal. No, I don't, it has a lot of figurative language, even though you believe that that is just what people say to explain away the scriptures.

No. Jesus used this idiomatic language all the time. He called people scorpions, which is still to this day a term used in the middle east for a devious, and evil person. Mountains, were the ruling cities of an empire, born again, was also an expression of the Jews in their verbal commentaries. You see see this for yourself in Alfred Edersheim's books, McClintock and Strong's Cyclodedia of Biblical Literature, and several other references.
Everything mentioned in the book of Revelation can be found in the Old Testament. All you have to do is study it out to completion. I haven't, because it will take a lifetime.

But, you and I, and everyone else that bothers to write anything on these boards are just students. And we haven't said anything that past generations of opposing views haven't discussed. This is a tired arguement.

You said that we should be able to learn from eachother.
Well, apparently, that seems to be one-sided. Meaning, I can learn from you.
All I did was define words, and you and a few others got mad. That is the first problem. People don't want definition, they want comfort at the cost of sound doctrine.
It's sad.

Your question that you said I could answer about wrath.

 If you look up the words in the Greek you will also learn that the wrath that believers are not appointed to, is not referring to God's judgement. What he didn't appoint us to is ario, and oregomai. Meaning, that we are not to lift up ourselves, or take up for ourselves, and and we not to desire carnal things, like money. You won't ever see this, if you don't study and parse the Greek, and compare them to other scriptures. This is NOT taking scripture out of context, because there are not certain scriptures for certain things. Even though most people have their pet scriptures, that they somehow believe negate others.

It also says in the proper translation, of Hebrews 3:11, So I swear in their wrath/ orge, and oregomai, they shall not enter into my rest.

God does not appoint true followers unto wrath. If you define it properly.

Because. The wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God. Jms 1:20

So God does not pour out his wrath (as your implying it to mean) upon believers. but he will destroy all of our physical bodies because the word says so. And we cannot enter into his rest (the spiritual sabbath) when we are trying to defend ourselves, the bible says that the battle is the Lord's. We are commanded to rest in Him.

a mathetes

There is actaully a wide variety of opinions on what Paul meant by the "last trump".


Well you certainly right about the "rocket-scientist" part(I actually am , BTW). The Book of Revlations is filled with a lot of allegory, metaphor, and figurative language. Nevertheless, it will eventually be fulfilled LITERALY.



God has no boundaries. That is the nature of free-will. All is just for the Christian, although all may not be beneficial. Check it out in Romans.

BTW, the word "Anti-Christ" never appears in Revelation. Only the "Beast" and the False Prophet.


I kinda like your style 'one sheep' but you need to do a bit more studying.

I wonder how long one sheep will be around.

A strong voice of dissention brings scripture to the forefront that often go unnoticed.

Please, do some of us a favor, One sheep and don’t brake the TOC so you can hang around.

Seems the boards have been so sheltered they mostly read the same.  

   I have seen long time Christians spend years searching the Word.  I have seen those who open their hearts and minds to truth grow. Some just are happy to be babes.  His grace is sufficient.

Why would onesheep be banned?
He has an opinion which some of us here don't agree with - that's fine, as long as there's no false doctrine such as the New World Translation, or the book of Mormon, and Islam etc.

Onesheep has obvious agressive tendencies, but as long as he remains somewhat civil he can post here.

I guess some people here have the impression that we (moderators) are trigger happy, and that we request bans for people who simply have different interpretations of the scriptures than we do. That is simply not true.

Folks get usually banned after three warnings, and it's never simply because of different opinions.

Most posters here don't have a clue as to the things that go on in the background, or they don't get to see some of the posts which get people banned, because we are pretty good at deleting them quickly.

Most posters here don't have to look at the sickening porn that gets posted here, again, because the moderators are on the ball.

We moderators have a job to do here, it's called "moderating"
We enforce the rules which are set up by the ADMIN - moderators here can not, and do not ban people. We give warnings, and in the end it's the owner of this forum who decides who stays and who goes. And no, none of the moderators here are the ADMIN.

So in the end, onesheep has the privelage of being incorrect ;) but if he, or anyone else breaks the rules, especially after being warned, they will get banned.

onesheep, if you were not so angry maybe you'd have other sheep to play with! :D

Bronzesnake-


There is a time and a place for every emotion.
You come out of the gate swinging, and for no reason.
If you get angry by simply debating the scriptures, then I wonder how you handle situations where anger is warrented.




 So if I disagree with your incorrect interpretations, and we can not come to agreement, that's a false doctrine? Disagreeing is not doctrine my friend.
 Show me a single scripture that tells us to be angry when we disagree.

You come across as a person who is somewhat self rightious, like you believe you have "the" truth, and you are forced into rightious anger when people don't recognise your infallable truth.


What kind of response do you expect when you openly admit you are angry? Do you think that attitude might make people mad?



I agree, that's why you are mad. I'm not mad, and as far as I can tell no one else except you is angry.


Let me explain it so you won't be confused again.
The bible is God's Word - not man's.
Where ever God uses figurative language in His Word, it is always used to describe literal events. Everything in the bible either has, or will literally occur. God, in His eternal wisdom came up with a message that all generations throughout the histroy of the bible, could understand in their own point and time in history. If God had have written the word "nuclear" 2,000 years ago, no one would have been able to understand what it meant. God used figurative language to convey future literal events, so His children could be ready for His return, and so that when these prophecies began to literally unfold, those who wittness them will know "that I am God"


No. Jesus used this idiomatic language all the time. He called
What's your point? I know Jesus used figurative language, as well as parables. When Jesus used a parabel to convey a message, He always foretold that it was a parabel, and then gave the literal meaning of it. Please point out some of the examples in Alfred Edersheim's books.


That's revealing my friend. You make a stand pat statement that "Everything mentioned in the book of Revelation can be found in the Old Testament, All you have to do is study it out to completion" then you go on to say you haven't studied it out! :D So how do you come to such a conclusion?



Hold the boat smokey. Don't paint yourself as a victim in this. You came out with the comment about not being my friend. You came out swinging because I disagreed with your opinions. So I guess you are referring to yourself with statements such as these - People don't want definition, they want comfort at the cost of sound doctrine.
It's sad - People get mad when their theology gets challenged
Remember, you're the one who got mad.




Really? So all the devestating events recorded in Revelation is not God's wrath? Hey, tonight when you're praying to our Father, please let Him know that His wrath is not part of the seven year tribulation period, because He apparently doesn't know.

Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, [ye] heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Rev 14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Rev 14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast [it] into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Rev 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

Rev 15:7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.

Rev 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

Rev 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

Rev 18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Take care my friend.

Bronzesnake-

You said that revelation is absolutely is chronological order, but you
still believe that there is a pre-trib rapture? That's fine, and you
made some good points, but I believe that you are overlooking the time
factor involved. I Corinthians 15:51. The 'key'is in the mystery
(musterion) There are only two mysteries in the bible. The mystery of
the Church, Eph chapters 3 and 5 and the mystery of iniquity, 2nd Thes
2:6. Jesus said in John 6:38 that he will raise the church up at the
last day. So we have to go by what he said, it's not just my opinion, or as you once again condecendingly put it "inaccurate interpretations"
That word last is eskatos, last in the series, like the last echo heard
after shouting into the Grand canyon or something.
Matt 24:31 AFTER the tribulation of those days. He will send his angels
with a great sound of a trumpet.
Angels are messengers, human as well as angelic.
1st angel sounds in Rev 8:7, 2nd, vs 8, 3rd, vs 10, 4th, vs 12, 5th,
Rev
9:1, 6th, vs 13, 7th, Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the
seventh angel, when he should begin to sound THE MYSTERY OF GOD (The
Church) IS FINISHED. As he had declared to his servants the prophets.

That lines up with the last trump doesn't it? And also the bible says
that we are going to be changed by the same operation that destroys the
last enemy of God which is death. So, again, no I do not see the
pre-trib rapture.

Not only that, but there is a shadow picture of this in the Old
Testament story of Jericho. On the 7th day they marched seven times ,
and then shouted and blew trumpets. The end. I believe that it's a good
example of meaning of  the word seven because it's not only a literal number, it's
also an adjective.
It's not literal in the case of the seven churches in Asia because
there
where more than just 7 churches in Asia for one thing, and for another
that word means to be complete, or refined. Well, to be complete means,
finished, right?

onesheep quote...


Yes and yes. When you read Revelation you can understand that it is indeed in chronological order. However, some folks get confused when there seems to be verses, which are repeated, and this can lead some to believe they are out of chronological order. If we take a closer look at the details of such verses, we will see that they do in fact describe the same details and events in their exact chronological order, but from two different viewpoints. One verse will describe events from the viewpoint of being in Heaven, and will detail what is happening in Heaven as these events are going on on earth, and there will be an exact description of the events as seen form the viewpoint of being on earth.



That's not accurate my friend...

Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables:

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

1Cr 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

1Cr 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

Eph 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

Eph 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

Eph 3:9 And to make all [men] see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Eph 6:19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,

Col 1:26 [Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Col 2:2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;

Col 4:3 Withal praying also for us, that God would open unto us a door of utterance, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in bonds:

2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.

1Ti 3:9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead [was] a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

Rev 17:7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

onesheep please answer this question.
Most people on earth today that what Christians believe Jesus will take all believers and give them eternal bodies so they can live forever with Him in Heaven right?
So explain what the "mystery" is in this verse...

1Cr 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

It's not the timing of His second coming, because He told us the exact day that would happen. So what is the "mystery"?



The rapture of His saints and the second coming are completely different events. If you read the verses associated with Rapture, then compare them top the verses which are associated with His second coming, you will see without a doubt that these are two distinct and separate events. One has His saints being lifted up, the other has Jesus and His saints coming down from Heaven to the earth.
There are many examples such as this, which we can make the distinction from the two.
I may start a thread to compare both events in more detail. Right now I am in poor health and I have little energy. I promise you I will begin either a study or a regular thread on the subject when I am better.


That's a bit misleading my friend.
Angles can take on human form - humans cannot take on angelic form. Jesus was a human, doe that make all humans God?




Again, there is confusion between the Rapture and His second coming. The last trump is sounded by an angel - The last trump of God is not found in those verses my friend. It is found only in the Rapture verses.

Take care my friend.

If a mystery is known is it a mystery?

I dunno...it's a mystery! ;D

REBA is a mystery.
Of course - she's supposed to be.   8)

Hi Reba - although I've never seen your face - I miss it.  ;D
I sure hope you and yours are in God's comfortable hands.  You moved from "wine country" to "fine country".  I pray you've found comfort in the Sierra backlands.

God bless,
JN

THE RAPTURE THE GLORIOUS APPEARING

 Here is a comparrison of the Rapture events and the actual glorious appearing events. The Rapture events are on the left, and are in bold text with the glorious appearing comparison right beside it. We can plainly see the contrast.


1. Christ comes in air for His own 1. Christ comes to earth with His own

2. Rapture of all Christians 2. No one raptured

3. Christians taken to Father's House 3. Resurrected saints don't see Father's House

4. No Judgment on earth at Rapture 4. Christ judges earth's inhabitants

5. Church taken to Heaven at Rapture 5. Christ sets up His kingdom on earth

6. Rapture imminent (any moment without knowledge of its time) 6. Glorious Appearing cannot occur for at least seven years

7. No signs for Rapture 7. Many signs for Christ's physical coming

8. For believers only 8. Affects all humanity

9. Time of joy 9. Time of sorrow

10. Before the 7 year Tribulation 10. Immediately after the Tribulation

11. No mention of Satan 11. Satan bound in Abyss for 1000 years

12. Only His own will see Him 12. Every eye will see Him

13. The Judgment Seat of Christ 13. No time or place for Judgment Seat

14. Tribulation begins 14. Millennial kingdom of Christ begins

15. Marriage of Lamb 15. His bride descends with Him


To Be Continued...

I think it would be better for me to start a new thread on The Pre-Trib Rapture.

John 5:27-29

27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
KJV

Hey Reba. There's some excellent Second Coming/Glorious Appearance verses. These verses describe where people will end up at the Great White Throne Judgment.

 Thanks my sister.

John

The above verses state that  an "hour" is coming when the dead in Christ and the Dead in,... well satan :P will 'come forth'

in reading  the listed points Bronze has posted....  i see he believes the christians in the graves are not going to be raptured. Is that what you believe?

 A quote from Bronze from his Rapture thread.



Your post seem to contradict each other and the very Words of Christ. So explaine this to me untill i can understand, how it is not a crontradiction.

John 5:27-29
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


Reba Quote...



Sure thing Reba.
The Rapture and His Glorious Appearance (actual second coming) are two distinct and separate events.
The following verses from 1 Thes 4 are Rapture verses. In these verses we see both the dead in Christ (believers in Jesus) and the living in Christ, both being caught up (Raptured) together to meet Jesus in the clouds, on our way to Heaven for the seven-year tribulation period. Paul is reassuring his followers that their friends who had died, and were believers in Jesus, would be Raptured along with those who are alive when Jesus opens a door in Heaven and sounds His "trump of God" and shouts "come up hither!"

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.  

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.  

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.  

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.  

1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words

Reba, my sister. Look at the verses here (above) they describe Jesus "appearing" in the air, in the clouds Jesus shouts out a command for His faithful servants to "come up here!" There is a door open in Heaven to allow entry for His faithful - both the dead and the living. This is not His actual "landing" it's not His second coming. He never touches the ground here Reba. The details are deliberate and purposeful - In the air - in the clouds.

Contrast these verses with the actual second coming verses ( I have done a comparison in the pre-mid-post etc thread)
I’ll contrast the verses, which seem to contradict my belief in the Rapture, as you pointed out.

The following verses are not Rapture verses Reba. These verses line up with His second coming Great White Throne Judgment. I know this because verse 27 speaks about judgment being executed. Verses 28 & 29 detail the bodies coming out of the graves and being judged – some to eternal life and some to the Lake of Fire.

These verses are found in Revelation 20:11-15, I will type them in at the end of this post.
John 5:27-29
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.  

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.  

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.  

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.  

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.  

So, you see Reba, I am not contradicting myself. The confusion lies with the fast that there are two events 1) The Rapture & 2) The Second Coming/Great White Throne Judgment

I hope this helps you to figure out where I'm coming from my sister.

John

John 5:27-29
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


I see a contradiction.

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