Print Page - The Trinity

As I'm sure you know, the Trinity, is not mentioned in the Bible.

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word (Jesus), and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

2 Corinthians 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Ephesians 2:13-18 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Jude 1:20-21 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, 21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

Acts 2:32-33 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

And most importantly;
Isaiah 6:3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.

Only one other time is Holy, holy, holy is mentioned in the Bible, Revelation 4:8. So with holy, holy, holy, being done three times. You have, The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit.

I'm sure that there are other. That can answer this question better, then I can. As I am on the tired side, right now.

Resting with the Lord.
Bob

Revelation 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, LORD God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
^^^Please note, this is a random verse, that comes up. ^^^

Quote from: bluelake on May 19, 2005, 12:48:54 AM

As a Christian, how would you define the doctrine of the Trinity?

Blessings,
bluelake

bluelake,
Jehovah is a wonderful personal living God. He cannot be fully comprehended by finite people but He can be loved and enjoyed by all of us. God is triune in essence just as He is light, life, and love. He is Holy in every way. The Bible does not teach doctrine like we do because like food it is meant to be eaten as a whole and not dissected to satisfy our intellect. The Bible is a book of life bringing us into the living God. God is triune not for our understanding but for our enjoyment in experience. We can experience the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as we pray over and read the scriptures. By pray/reading we actually are enabled by His grace to live the eternal life He has freely given us. Doctrine by itself is very dry and lifeless. Many search the scriptures because in them they think they can gain eternal life yet they will not come to Jesus. Jesus is where we find life and peace. He has made known to us the oneness of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit! Blessed be His Name!

asaph

Quote

May I ask you from your above post, is it your conviction that the Father left Jesus on the cross to die? Or are you suggesting that Christ's nature was changed on the cross from the Corinthian's verse? I can assure you that neither of these things happened. Maybe the exression "My God, my God" is an emphasis (Hebrews did that sort of thing) of emotional and physical distress. After all Jesus was human.

God bless,
hope's daughter

I certainly believe that the expression Jesus uses, tells us the extent of the agony He experienced on the cross. Understand that I do not submit Jesus ever lost His righteousness, blamelessness, or deity, but I do believe that something we do not fully understand happened at that moment. Certainly God the Father was pleased with His Son and His justice and Righteousness and fully accepted the death of Jesus on our behalf.

With that in mind, let us again consider the question. Did Jesus become sin on the cross, having all of mankind's sins imputed on He who was blameless and Righteous on our behalf? Were all of mankind's sins from the beginning of time to the end, imputed to innocent Jesus Christ on the cross that they might be put to death and paid for by Him for us? I'm sure we all agree yes to this.

Can God have fellowship with sin? The answer must be no! Again, not that Christ suffered loss of deity or was guilty of any sin, but He bore all of our sin, literally becoming sin that it might be put to death in Him on the cross.

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

I most certainly would submit, that somehow, someway, Jesus suffered some sort of separation from the Father, so that WE could be reconciled to the Father having our sin debt paid in full!

Heb 13:5 [.....] for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

Having been there Himself, He bore our payment in full and will never forsake or leave us! The Father, having hid His face from our sin on Christ at the cross, remembers them no more when we come to Christ and obtain righteousness and forgiveness through Him. How beautiful is that?

Again.....

Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

IMO, I believe this is reference to God the Father, and God the Holy Spirit, and Jesus bore this affliction also on our behalf.

I could be wrong, but if so, the price He paid for us becomes even more unfathomable.

Grace and Peace!

Hopes_Daughter,

Let me add a couple of simple questions that might unravel the answers.

Was Jesus Christ fully man, YET VERY GOD?

Did the man Jesus Christ die on the Cross?

Was the HOLY GHOST given up from the physical body of Jesus Christ at the time of the physical body's death?

The answers are Yes, Yes, Yes. Now, answer this one:

Was the HOLY GHOST alive and GOD?

Yes

Here's a harder one:

Did God physically AND spiritually die on the Cross?

No - Certainly not the SPIRIT of GOD. In fact, THE POWER AND REALITY OF THE HOLY SPIRIT WAS RELEASED AS THE COMFORTER PROMISED BY JESUS WHO WOULD COME TO THOSE WHO ACCEPTED HIM.

If you answer all of these questions, there is still mystery in the answers. Jesus Christ was most definitely GOD made manifest in the flesh. The man felt pain, cried, and did physically die.

One final question:

When believers hurt and cry, who do they cry out to?

Our Heavenly Father!

This answers the question for me. I hope that I was able to express this in a way that others will understand. Regardless, this is the answer for me. I didn't say that I understood all of it.

Love In Christ,
Tom

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Discussing the Doctrine of the Trinity can get one in a LOT of hot water on some of these forum sites.....this is an extremely controversial doctrine. Most who call themselves Christians are believers in the doctrine, as this has been a part of Christian "tradition" since the 4th century. Yet, there are others, who are also Christians, who do not believe this doctrine, and do not go along with such doctrines simply because they have become "traditional teachings."

Both sides present Scriptural arguments and quotes in "support" of their position.....and usually the "trinitarians" have no idea that two of the most frequently used verses they quote are completely spurious verses that were deliberately added by the Roman Church to support the doctrine [Matthew 28:19 and 1st John 5:7] and are not original Scripture. There are other verses that seem to support the doctrine, however, so one cannot argue that there is "no support" for it. On the other hand, there are a number of verses that seem to indicate the authors did not view Jesus as part of a "trinity," and the doctrine itself, as pointed out by Blackeyepeas, is never mentioned in Scripture. Whether correctly or incorrectly, this is a "man-made doctrine," and it would be foolish to argue otherwise, as the historical emergence of this doctrine is well known, and reverts directly to the Council of Nicea in 325 AD and again in, I believe 384 AD, or thereabouts. The doctrine was unknown to 1st/2nd century Christians, and certainly the Hebrews for 4,000 years had never considered God to be a "trinity."

Whether correct or incorrect, is belief in the trinity necessary to our salvation? No. It is not required that we believe in the trinity doctrine in order to be saved. [A fact for which I am thankful, since I do not believe it, and haven't got a clue how to "explain" the "trinity!"][In fact, the church itself doesn't even have a hard & fast explanation, and it took the Roman Church over 1100 years to make the doctrine official at the Council of Trent in the 16th century!] But it doesn't matter....belief in the doctrine is not required for salvation.

I, personally, do not believe this doctrine is correct, but that is only my own opinion based on my own knowledge, and I admit my opinion is heavily influenced by all the controversy surrounding the main verses used to "support" the doctrine, the church's own inability to offer a definition for the doctrine, and the fact that the doctrine was unknown to Christians in the 1st-3rd centuries and is a product of the late 3rd/early 4th century Roman Church based on a decision by Constantine that is itself very controversial! In my own opinion, once the "spurious verses" are eliminated, there is no real textual support for the "trinity," I see no reason to create a man-made doctrine that was neither understood, nor needed, for the 4,300+ years prior to its fabrication by the Roman Church. But this is just my own personal opinion and belief. I can see where a person could "decide" to believe EITHER WAY....pro-trinity, or anti-trinity.

One can get into the same type of controversy regarding the
"pre-existence of Christ doctrine." There are those who believe in his pre-existence, and there are those who do not, and it is unlikely the two sides will ever see eye to eye. But is belief in that doctrine required for salvation? No.

Doctrinal arguments or debates are fun, and sometimes can lead to a better understanding, but in the long run they are meaningless......the only thing that counts is what is Scripturally required for SALVATION.......and that, truly, is the Bible's entire purpose, as the written Word of God....to bring us to salvation

Right...it was DreamWeaver that said it....sorry about that.

However, I stand by my position......aside from the spurious verses, yes there are many other verses used to offer support for the doctrine......just like there are many verses that support the opposing view......which is exactly why there are "pro" and "anti" trinitarians.

The only thing I would like to add is that it appears to me that trinitarians are applying all those verses "after the fact."
The early (1st/3rd century) Christians had no such doctrine and did not teach any such doctrine. And certainly the Hebrews never had any such doctrine....in fact, for over 4,000 years they clearly understood the "holy spirit" to be the active force/will of God, not a "person." It was man who personified the holy spirit. The trinity doctrine admittedly is a product of the 3rd/4th century Roman Church.

I'm sorry, but I do not accept "after the fact" arguments as being conclusive......if there was a "trinity," don't you suppose it would have been known to the Christians/Church of the first three centuries? I believe you, and other trinitarians, are interpreting the verses "after the fact," in the light of the doctrine/tradition, which itself didn't even begin until after the third century. The history of the formation of the doctrine is well known, and the plain and simple fact is, it is a product of the 4th century Roman Church, decided by Constantine, in favor of Athanasius, then ratified by the Council at Nicea, and the doctrine had no existence prior to the late 3rd/early 4th century. What you, and other trinitarians do, is try to interpret and apply Bible verses retroactively, after the fact, in order to support this doctrine. What you cannot seem to understand is there was no such doctrine prior to the late 3rd/early 4th century. The early Christians/Church actually booted people out for believing Christ/God were equal, never mind treating the holy spirit as a co-equal third person in some "trinity." [A History of the Christian Church 2nd Ed. 1985 Williston Walker, "AD 200. . Noetus had been expelled from the Smyrnaean church for teaching that Christ was the Father, and that the Father himself was born, and suffered, and died."]
See also:
http://www.christadelphia.org/trinityhistory.htm
http://www.heraldmag.org/99nd_3.htm
http://bama.ua.edu/~msa/trinity.html
http://www.sullivan-county.com/identity/trinity.htm

But, as noted previously, believing in the "trinity" is not required for salvation......so I'm not going to lose any sleep over it, one way or another. Some believe the doctrine is correct, some don't, and I just happen to be one of those who don't.

Quote from: Pastor Roger on May 23, 2005, 02:01:01 PM

Seeker,

Just who do you believe that Jesus Christ is?

I believe he is exactly what the Bible says he is....the Son of God, conceived by the holy spirit through Mary, and born in the flesh as a human, and later empowered supernaturally through the holy spirit to do God's Will after he was baptised by John.

The following taken from:
http://www.heraldmag.org/99nd_3.htm
The Jews were aware that God would send a Messiah (Hebrew) or Christ (Greek)--one anointed by God as his prophet, his servant. Moses told them, "The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken" (Deuteronomy 18:15). Isaiah said, "Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him" (Isaiah 42:1).

These prophecies--and many more like them--consistently describe Messiah as a highly honored subordinate of God Almighty. Jesus was that promised Messiah. He was no ordinary messenger. He was in fact the very son of God, so termed 47 times in the New Testament. Jesus performed every duty faithfully, and has now been exalted to the "right hand of the majesty on high" (Hebrews 1:3). "God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows" (Hebrews 1:9). Jesus, always an obedient son to his heavenly Father, now exalted above all others, is still a devoted son and subordinate of the heavenly Father. He does not assume his honor, glory or service on his own. On the contrary, he receives these at the hand of his Father and superior, God himself. "No man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God ... So also Christ glorified not himself to be made a high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son" (Hebrews 5:4,5). "The Son of man came ... to the Ancient of days ... and there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom" (Daniel 7:13,14).

Are Jesus and God Co-Equal?

According to the Scriptures, they clearly are NOT equal. In every case, where God and Jesus are referred to in the same context, Jesus is subordinate, and the Father is superior. Here are some of the many texts on this issue: "Why callest thou me good? None is good, save one, that is, God" (Luke 18:19). "My Father is greater than I" (John 14:28). "The Head of Christ is God" (1 Corinthians 11:3). "[Jesus] sat down on the right hand of God" (Hebrews 10:12). "Then shall the Son also himself be subject ... that God may be all in all" (1 Corinthians 15:28) Perhaps most telling of all is that Jesus recognizes God as his own God--his superior, to whom he renders adoration, worship and praise (Matthew 27:46; John 20:17; Ephesians 1:17; Revelation 1:6). No scripture says Jesus is co-equal!

Is the Holy Spirit a Person?

Ordinarily there would be no question about this. The holy Spirit of God anointed Jesus at Jordan, who received it not "by measure" (John 3:34). It is "poured out" and "shed" on others (Acts 10:45; Acts 2:17,33; Joel 2:28; Zechariah 12:10). Persons are not "poured," "shed" or "measured," but the spirit, power and influence of God is properly described this way. The holy Spirit of God is variously described in Scripture as the spirit of Truth, Holiness, Life, Faith, Wisdom, Grace, and Glory. The Scriptures also speak of an opposite spirit of Jealousy, Judgment, Burning, Heaviness, Whoredoms, Infirmity, Divination, Bondage, Slumber, Fear, Antichrist and Error. No one would suggest these are persons.

The Scriptures speak of the spirit of Jacob, Elijah, Tiglath-Pilesser, the Philistines, Cyrus, Princes, the Medes, Zerubbabel, and Joshua. Of course these spirits are not persons.

Why, then, would any suppose the "holy Spirit of God" (Ephesians 4:30) was a separate being? Actually no one would (and no one did) until the time mysteries and philosophies began to enter Christian dogma. But today, centuries later, some suppose a support for the personhood of the holy Spirit because of the pronouns used for it in the New Testament. For example, "When he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth" (John 16:13). Of the Comforter Jesus said, "I will send him unto you" (verse 7). It sounds like a person because of the pronouns "he" and "him." A little examination into the Greek explains the issue. When "comforter" is meant, the pronoun is masculine, but when "spirit" is intended, the pronoun is neuter. Literally it could be translated "it will guide you." It is simply a matter of grammar, not of personality. The Greek word for "comforter" is a masculine noun, and that for "spirit" is a neuter noun. Therefore the pronouns necessarily follow the gender of the noun. (Actually the genders in verse 13 are supplied by the Greek verbs rather than by explicit pronouns.) No scripture says the holy Spirit of God is a person!

Seeker and Others,

I see that I did a very poor job in trying to express my thoughts in this discussion about the words of JESUS before His death.

Let me correct any misconceptions about anything I might have said. The entire Holy Bible testifies of the Holy Trinity. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit - the Three being One - ALMIGHTY GOD! is not just a doctrine - rather fact.

Part was a mystery not known to men of other ages. This TRUTH AND ABSOLUTE REALITY was taught by the Apostle Paul, not hundreds of years later. It was taught when the mystery was revealed. THE CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST was the REALITY of this mystery revealed. Daniel and other prophets of the Old Testament didn't speak of this mystery - simply because it wasn't revealed at that time. This was and is a Church not made with human hands.

I didn't think that I said anything that would lead someone to believe that I questioned the Holy Trinity, because I don't. There are many unsaved people who believe that Jesus was just a man, just a prophet, or just anything other than VERY GOD. Some believe that Jesus was created and have many other thoughts that Jesus was anything other than VERY GOD - THE CREATOR - ALMIGHTY GOD. JESUS CHRIST being very GOD is not just an opinion for debate, rather an absolute fact and at the core of Salvation.

The existence and absolute REALITY of the Holy Spirit is also a fact, not just a doctrine or an opinion. In short, the Holy Trinity is not just an opinion or doctrine subject to debate, rather an absolute fact. Please accept my apology for anything I might have said in a previous post that confuses anyone.

Please let me state with absolute certainty:

God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit ARE ONE - ALMIGHTY GOD! - the CREATOR! had no beginning and will have no end.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Colossians 2:8-10 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

Quote from: blackeyedpeas on May 23, 2005, 02:31:39 PM

We understand your position....the mistake wasn't yours, it was mine....see above posts, as I misquoted...it was actually DreamWeavers that said it.

Quote from: Pastor Roger on May 23, 2005, 02:50:32 PM

Seeker,

Yes, Jesus Christ was the son of God as is stated throughout the New Testament. He is also God.

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

Do you believe that it is beyond the power of God for both to be true or do you believe that Jesus and the Bible contradict themselves?

The verse, "I and my Father are one," can also be interpreted to mean they are one in spirit, not necessarily one entity. Semantically many verses can be interpreted in many different ways.

As to your question regarding "contradictions," I really don't want to get into that, because feathers get ruffled very quickly in that type of debate.....people have a wide range of beliefs regarding the Biblical text, from being "100% inerrant, accurate, and never changing," all the way to the other extreme, that the text has been "corrupted, there is much evidence and proof that verses have been deliberately changed, we don't have the original, and we have no way of knowing what the original may have said."

Do I personally believe there are contradictions or discrepancies in today's texts? Yes, I do....I think there is too much evidence/proof of this to just ignore...but that is my personal view, and others may feel differently. I think authors like Josh McDowell do a disservice when they gloss over these things and pretend they don't really exist. Where different stories of the same event are given and the facts don't match up, yes, I'd have to say there are contradictions and discrepancies, and the text has become corrupted over time (both by accident and deliberately).

But back to the point....like I said, there are those who believe in the trinity, and there are those who do not, and it is highly unlikely that the two sides will ever agree. But then if everyone agreed, we wouldn't have over 1,000 denominations, sects, divisions, branches, groups, and organizations, all calling themselves "Christian," would we? Obviously not everyone agrees with one another, on any number of issues.

What is important is that Christians agree on the requirements for salvation.....and in this day and age, I'm not even sure the 1,000+ denominations, etc., agree on THAT issue!

Seeker,

I was very confused and read the entire thread again. Dreamweaver said that the word "Trinity" wasn't in the Bible, but he didn't question the absolute reality of the Holy Trinity, and he never would.

There are many words used today that aren't in the Holy Bible, but that does not suggest that the meaning of the word isn't taught in the Holy Bible. The word "Triune" is also not in the Holy Bible. This term is commonly used today in speaking about the Godhead. "Godhead" is in the Holy Bible, and The Triune God is one of man's ways of describing the Holy Trinity - The Godhead.

Here's another example that is spoken of often. Some people say that they don't believe in the Rapture of the Church because the word "Rapture" isn't in the Holy Bible. The Holy Bible uses the phrase, "Caught up to meet the Lord in the air" when referring to JESUS coming for His Church. That is the "Rapture".

Here's another example that fits closer to the topic of the thread. "God made manifest in the flesh" does not hint or suggest that Jesus Christ was created - just the opposite. Jesus Christ was and is Very God - THE CREATOR! The Three which are ONE - ALMIGHTY GOD - existed before the foundation of the world and had no beginning. Mankind has a beginning, but Jesus Christ was NOT just a man. There was only ONE Perfect and Holy Sacrifice capable of rescuing mankind from the curse of sin and death, and HE was GOD.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 8:26-28 The Spirit also helpeth our infirmities; for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit Himself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And He that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because He maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to His purpose.

Quote

Seeker Said:

But back to the point....like I said, there are those who believe in the trinity, and there are those who do not, and it is highly unlikely that the two sides will ever agree. But then if everyone agreed, we wouldn't have over 1,000 denominations, sects, divisions, branches, groups, and organizations, all calling themselves "Christian," would we? Obviously not everyone agrees with one another, on any number of issues.

What is important is that Christians agree on the requirements for salvation.....and in this day and age, I'm not even sure the 1,000+ denominations, etc., agree on THAT issue!

Seeker,

Islam believes that Jesus was just a man and prophet, subordinate to Mohammed, but the members of Islam are lost. The same is true for all others who deny the absolute Deity of Jesus Christ. So, the agreement or disagreement is ALSO the difference between being Saved or Lost. A Christian has never been defined to include anyone who denies the Deity of Jesus Christ. However, there are some who claim to be Christians who deny the Deity of Jesus Christ. There is no agreement among various denominations that people who deny JESUS are Christians - just the opposite. Those who deny the absolute Deity of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are known as false religions and cults, not Christians. It's really just as simple as that.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Ephesians 1:12-14 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Seeker:

As with some other Christadelphians I have talked with, you tend to make some very pedantic statements as if they themselves were gospel.

Your commentary about the Hebrews, and about the non-existence of trinitarian thought prior to Nicea leads me to believe that you have failed in your first duty to yourself, and to God...and that is to be a Berean, and check out what you hear, or what you read.

Following is just a tidbit of info for you to consider.

Behold O Israel, the LORD your God is one.
Hebrews understood from the very beginning that the word "one" as given in scripture was echad, which is a composite unity, as opposed to be a cardinal of singular value only.

Theophilus of Antioch about A. D. 180. He speaks of "the Trinity of God [the Father], His Word and His Wisdom He is made a second in manner of existence-in position, not in nature "Ad. Autol.", II, 15

Tertullian A.D. 155-220 That which has come forth out of God is at once God and the Son of God, and the two are one. Apology

I believe that both Theophilus and Tertullian predated the council of Nicea by quite a few years.

Quote from: seekeraftertruth on May 23, 2005, 01:05:59 PM

Seeker,

I'm very sad to learn the source of your confusion. First, I will pray for you. Second, I will sternly state that the false doctrine of the Christadelphians will not be taught on Christians Unite. Further, links to their false material is not permitted here.

In short, one simple and blunt statement will do:

False teaching that denies the deity of Jesus Christ is not permitted here, and it will never be permitted here.

This is the only warning you will receive on this issue. You are welcome to stay and learn, but you are NOT welcome to preach or teach your false doctrine here.

Moderator

Brothers and Sisters,

I've been reflecting about this thread and many things going on in the world right now.

This is a lost and dying world. There are many lost people in misery who are dying in their sins, cursed and doomed for eternal punishment. New cults and false religions appear to be rising up every day, so it is apparent that the devil is working overtime to keep the lost away from JESUS.

We should never underestimate the power of the devil to deceive. The devil is now offering jesus with a little "j", NOT JESUS who paid for our sins on the Cross. The devil offers a man, NOT GOD. It is very clever for the devil to use the name of our Lord and Saviour in many false religions. The devil also creates confusion for those who try to witness about the real JESUS with these false religions and cults. AND, these representatives of the devil call themselves Christians. It should come as no surprise that the devil is also trying to use the Holy Bible for his work.

In short, offering the lost a man instead of God is like pouring gasoline on a burning person. So, the devil isn't just clever in his deception, the devil is cruel with his deceptions.

Brothers and Sisters, we should not let the devil discourage us in our efforts to share the GOOD NEWS of the Gospel of God's Grace. The devil wants us to be discouraged. We should do the opposite and pray that God gives us the strength to double or triple our efforts in pointing the lost to Christ and away from the anti-christ. The time might be growing short to witness to our friends and family. In fact, tomorrow might be too late.

Love In Christ,
Tom

1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Tom, I too have been thinking and praying about this discussion, especially the verse...

Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

It is quite clear, the Jesus was fully God and never ever lost this status at any time. If He had, then the Salvation would be in question for all. He was God in the flesh, and submitted Himself in obedience to the Father unto death. He bore the sins of the world in order to reconcile us to the Father. He suffered the penalty that the curse of the law brought on us all, yet He was fully innocent.

Jesus did not doubt when He cried "My God My God, why has thou forsaken me". He was bearing His soul to the Father under the weight of our sin. Tim's sin, Tom's sin, hopes_daughters sin. Suffering the full penalty that we deserved. Note He cries, My God! Not doubting, but submitting in full obediance, and bearing His soul on our behalf. For the first time in His humanity on earth, He was left alone to suffer in our stead. Jesus alone had to experience this without the comforts of His Father. The Father could not, the Holy Spirit could not. Jesus payed the full price of my sin and your sin!

Heb 5:6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Heb 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Heb 5:10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

Being made perfect, not only in His Sonship, but through the obediance in His suffering! He became the author of ETERNAL Salvation for me and you...Praise GOD!!!!!

Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

He is familiar with all our sufferings in this life. He knows what its like to feel alone, because He's been there.

And then....The cry that shook the world.

"It is finished!"

tel-eh'-o
Disharged, compete, accomplished, pay.

We are discharged from the debt we owe. Christ alone payed it once and for all. He suffered as we deserved to suffer, He died as we deserved, He was forsaken as we deserved, yet He was faithful unto death fulfilling the full penalty that we owe thus purchasing our pardon from the Father. :'( Praise His Holy Name forever!

Lord we can never repay what you have done for us. Thank you for the FREE gift of Grace, which you bought with your own blood. You paid the penalty of Justice you demand, even when we deserved death. You nailed our sins to your very own Son that we might be liberated from them. Lord we owe you our very lives and an eternity of Praise and Worship. We love you Lord, and Thank you for Loving us enough to die in our place.

Grace and Peace!

Quote from: 2nd Timothy on May 24, 2005, 08:00:37 PM

2nd Timothy,

Brother, I only have one thing to say:

AMEN!

ELI, ELI, LMANA SABACHTHANI

Some think Jesus quoted the Psalms. If He had, He would have spoken these words in Hebrew instead of Aramaic. If Jesus translated them from Hebrew, He would have used the Aramaic word "nashatani" which means "forsaken me", instead of the word "shabacktani" which in this case means "kept me." The soldiers who stood by the cross thought Jesus was calling on Elijah because the word for Elijah in Aramaic is "Elia" which is very similiar to that for God, "Eli."

The disciples and women who were from Galilee never would have thought that Jesus would say that God had forsaken Him.
How could Jesus say that God had forsaken Him when He told His disciples that the entire world would forsake Him, even they, but that His Father would never forsake Him.

These words, Eli Eli, Imana sabachthani, are even used today by Assyrians when they suffer and die unjustly. Instead of complaining they leave everything up to God. They believe that it's God's desire they should go through such experiences. This is the reason why in the East, committing suicide is just about unheard of.

cris

I am thankful for this topic, as it has led me to be enriched through a study in the word over the last 2 days. I have come to realize in a fresh and new way, the enormous price that Christ paid for my sins.

A few points on this thread, then I will relent rather than debate. I plan on posting a sermon in a new thread, which I found shortly after my last post. I encourage you to read it with an open heart. It has strengthened me tremendously in my Love and awe of my Saviour.

Both Matthew and Mark plainly interpret what "lama sabachthani" meant. Both also indicate great distress as Christ cried out in a loud voice. The cry was one of agony, agreeing with the true meaning of the verse and the plain interpretation.

Next point. Jesus did not say the Father would NEVER forsake Him. He said they (the 12) would forsake Him, but YET He was not alone because the Father was with Him. Jesus is the one who told US He would NEVE forsake US.

Next Point. I will ask this rhetorically. What is the full punishment for sin? If you and I stand before a perfect JUST God without Christ on judgment day, what will His judgment be on us for our sin?

Next Point. If someone were to stand in our place and take that judgment on themselves, would they not have to bear the full brunt of Perfect Justice, just as we would in order to satisfy the Perfect Holy Judge?

Reply if you wish, but after searching Gods heart on this matter, it is my strong conviction that Jesus did indeed bear the FULLNESS of Gods wrath and Justice for our sin....including being forsaken in that dark hour. Holy Justice was served by a sinless Perfect, and Holy God.

There was no favor given to the guiltless Son of God. Jesus bore the full effect of our punishment that The Father's perfect Justice demanded. To stand in place of one convicted, grants no favors of comfort or ease on the judges part. The Judge, hath Judged accordingly! ALL which was owed by us, Jesus bore on Himself innocently, and paid the FULL PRICE of our debt, that WE might be FREE!

Grace and Peace!

Very well put to 2nd timothy and cris. I have one side note to add to it. When Jesus died on the Cross, and he said "Tetelestai" "It is finished" The war was won there. On that rugged cross, pierced by our transgressions. He bore the price, and won the victory so that we may have a CHANCE so that we may be free. Here's a verse from a song that i listen to that explains this.

Broken and poured out for the love of His creation,
God chose to pay a debt He didn't owe.
Bearing my pain,But not one was his equal,
And wearing my shame so that I could know Him

He gave us all he had to give,
So that we could truely live
So let's give all we have to him,
So that we can be completely free.

As they placed the thorns on his brow
As they drove the nails into his hands and his feet
He looked past the moment to where we are now
And gave us the victry from what seemed his defeat

He said, "Here's my body, it's broken in two,
Here is my blood, let it cover you
All that i have, is now yours to recieve
Payment in full, so that you can be free!

He gave us all he had to give
so that we could truely be free...

I like that song. It's by Big Daddy Weave and it is called "Completely Free" I thank God that He finished my salvation up there on the cross. Because i know that because my sins were pierced and nailed to that cross, that I am completely free.

I'll post an excerpt from one of my sermons dealing with this verse:

Turn to John 19:23 it says this also Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head and gave up the ghost” The greek word used is Tetelestai which is a cry of purpose, a shout of triumph. He was being sacrificed for a specific purpose and that purpose was now fulfilled! Don’t you see…Christ was a living sacrifice, the Ultimate Sacrifice. THis cry of purpose gave sinners an anchor to hold onto. It gave us as Christians a present help in time of need. To know that our Savior, has already suffered and bled and died, so that WE would have life, and have it eternally. Not to ever lose it, nor forsake it...but to have it eternally. As paul wrote..."So that You KNOW you are saved." NOT so that you "Think" you are saved, not so that you "Speculate" that you are saved. But that you KNOW that you are saved.

Yet He did it for you because He loves you and I. Check this verse out in Romans Chapter 5:8-10 Read along with me:

(Rom 5:8) But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.(Rom 5:9) Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.(Rom 5:10) For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Here is a poem that a friend wrote that may give a deeper meaning to what God says in His Word…Instead of Him being up there. We deserved to be up there suffering. Not Him! Yet in His unconditional Love, He did it anyway.

It should of been me
alone i sat, the day he died
how could life go on?
I watched as they beat him
i watched them scorn him
this man who could heal
this one who had shown nothing but love
now had died for it all
his one true friend denying
any knowledge of him
the soldiers shoved a crown made of thorns on his head
as the blood bagan to flow
they drug him to a cross
Nailing his feet and hands to it
mocking his name
as he bagan to die
shouldn't that crown be ours
should not we be the ones to die
the nails should have been in our hands
but his love for us surpassed our sin
our salvation on his mind
not his pain, not his death
just his love for us.
His voice echo's in my mind
as they take his body down
"father forgive them for they know not what they do"
how could i let an innocent man die!
the was mine.
yet i stood by and let him die
his pain was mine
yet he took it upon himself
what kind of love is this?
that causes a man to die for another
shouldn't that crown be ours
should not we be the ones to die
the nails should have been in our hands
but his love for us surpassed our sin
our salvation on his mind
not his pain, not his death
just his love for us.
three days he laid in the grave
soldiers guarding the place he lay
yet death, a grave and soldiers
couldn't hold the son of God
and he's alive forever more

Just a few thoughts friends.

Joshua

I would like to add a diferent twist on Psalm 22.
Psa 22:1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

Man in great distress cries out. Jesus as the last Adam cries out:
My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

When Jesus cried he cried for all mankind as our representative. He was cut off but not for himself. He was in the likeness of sinful flesh, yet without sin. Christ was crucified as the last Adam.

But did God the Father actually forsake Jesus. The answer is no.

Verse 24 of the same Psalm says:
Psa 22:24 For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.

This proves that Jesus was not forsaken. As the last Adam he felt like He was forsaken so he cried out "WHY?" This speaks of His humanity his oneness with us, his identification with us. He felt our forsakenness when He took our sins in his own body on the tree. But he was heard on our behalf by the Father who so loved us that He did not forsake us but rather took our sins and cast them as far as the east is from the west!

Christ was crucified as the last Adam but was not forsaken because He was raised as the second Man. In His resurrection we find humanity given a new sart as the new Man. In Christ we are a New Man. Out of Jews and Gentiles He calls us to be one New Man in Christ.

Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Eph 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
Eph 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

asaph

Asaph,

Thanks Brother for some excellent material to add to this study. This is not an easy or quick area to study, and many Bible scholars have arrived at varying opinions.

I like to concentrate on the more simple points:

JESUS CHRIST was Very God made manifest in the flesh.

JESUS lived and breathed as a man.

HE felt pain, joy, and sorrow as a man.

HE was Holy, without sin, and RIGHTEOUS.

HE was falsely convicted and sentenced to death.

HE was crucified, the most horrible execution method ever devised by man.

HE felt PAIN and bled as a man.

HE was obedient unto death as the only perfect sacrifice for the sins of mankind.

At death, HE gave up the Holy Ghost, the promised Comforter who would come to those who loved HIM.

HE was buried, but HE arose from the dead on the third day.

HE was seen by many witnesses, and HE ascended back to Heaven as our LIVING Lord and Saviour forever.
_______________________

In conclusion, I know that HE suffered as a man on the CROSS, but HE was innocent. I am the one who was guilty, and HE suffered and died for me in my place. In fact, HE bore the sins of the world in HIS body and took the suffering and sentence that the entire world deserved. HE offered Himself as a GIFT to all who would believe, have childlike faith, confess, and ask HIM to be the ONLY LORD over their lives.

Brother Asaph, the Truth that strikes me the hardest is our Holy LORD loved us enough to die in our place and take the punishment in HIS own body that we deserve for our sins. By HIS stripes, we are healed. By HIS BLOOD, we are redeemed. By HIS finished work on the Cross, we are rescued from the curse of sin and death.

I think that the biggest question here is: Was the pain, suffering, and death of JESUS real? YES!!! Was HE completely innocent and die in the place of sinful men, the JUST for the unjust? YES!!! Is HE our Everlasting Saviour today? YES!!!

Love In Christ,
Tom

II Timothy 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Quote from: asaph on May 30, 2005, 02:11:00 AM

You seem to be interpreting the scriptures that you gave.

bluelake

ChristiansUnite Forums

Theology => Apologetics => Topic started by: bluelake on May 19, 2005, 12:48:54 AM