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Brothers and sisters, I am grieved. I desire some fellowship about something.

We were given some free tickets to a local theme park. The night our tickets were for happened to be a special evening for the wheelchair bound. The vast majority were, I don’t know how to describe them, people with twisted limbs, misshapen heads, slobbering, screeching and so on. There were a good number of Down's syndrome individuals and many others with conditions I’m sure have names that I just don’t know.
During the whole evening I was overwhelmed thinking about Jesus being thronged by great crowds of such people and the ones who loved and cared for them.

Without inserting a ton of scripture references, I just want to pose some questions. Next to physical healings the miracle most often recorded in the Gospels is the casting out of demons. Should we assume that demon possession in “those days” was so common and that today, because of medical advancements, demon possession is a silly diagnosis? At the theme park I kept thinking of the boy in Mark 9:22 who was often thrown into the fire by a demon in him and who foamed at the mouth. Today I suppose it would be called Epilepsy or some such thing. Do you suppose Jesus knew all along that it was simply Epilepsy, but chose to act out the deliverance sham for the poor superstitious primitives? Did the devil “phase out” his work in this area as medical research discovered the “real” cause of these horrible maladies? Is the “exorcist” the standard by which we now measure demonic possession?… that kind of possession happens about…oh…twice in a century. Makes great movies and documentaries.

Mark and Luke both record the casting out of seven demons from Mary Magdalene. Was she somehow different than the average prostitute or street person today? Most Christian ministries today would have lead her to “accept Jesus Christ as her personal Lord and Savior” given her a Bible and then gotten her into church and some good counseling. If necessary we might even have had to get her to a good professional Psychiatrist.

Oh Lord Jesus!

Sorry…I groan, with the rest of creation for the manifestation of the sons of God.


Rom 8:19-22
19. For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21. Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
(KJV)


Bairn

There are those with physical maladies and those with demon possession yes even today. Although a person may act the same in either case they are not the same. It is just as there are many diseases or physical ailments that imitate each other in symptoms. There is GWI, MCS, FMS, CFIDS, MS and in some cases AIDS that all mimic each other and many other diseases do the same thing.

Jesus was not and is not a scam artist nor is He a liar. He knows the difference and would have said so. When He said He healed an affliction then He did so, when He said He cast out a demon then He did so.

Sorry I used the word sham PR. I was being graphic and unnecessarily sarcastic. I know it was a demon and I know Jesus did what the Word says He did. He is God.  I was so troubled at the theme park as I considered the suffering and I lament the lack of true deliverence and healing in our day. I also lament the great pains gone to by so many theologians to explain away these matters.

would you care to address my query regarding M. Magdalene?

Agape

Bairn

After reading your rsponse Pastor Roger, I realize I was unclear in the original post. I meant the sarcasm constuctively (though it seldom is). I am fully aware that there are bonified diseases and physical maladies. My wife is in a wheel chair and in the advanced stages of cancer.

My heart was wrenched over and over at this theme park as so many I saw were screeching and screaming and, as is stated in luke, pining away. I have a brother with advanced MS..wheelchair bound but of a sound mind. He is a Montana cowboy with every reason to be depressed, but God love him he's the joy he has allways been.

How I long for God to stretch forth his hands and heal as the deciples prayed in Acts 4.

Again, sorry I pushed a button. It was a poor choice of words for me as I tried to make a heartfelt point.

Agape

Bairn

Perhaps it was not a poor choice of words but rather something that is not easily relayed in written words. If we were face to face or if I knew you better I probably would have understood what you meant.

I fully understand being troubled by such things as you saw in that theme park. These things trouble me also. It frequently brings me to tears of compassion for these poor souls.

I have a daughter that has was diagnosed by Drs as "retarded". They claimed she wouldn't make it past grade level 2. She made it through the 10th grade. Today she is happily married and has a 2yr old daughter that is perfectly healthy and well cared for. In fact she does my house work also as my wife and I are handicapped.

You mentioned Pastors trying to explain these things away. We are not God and do try to understand and explain things as best we can as the Holy Spirit leads us. Are these always good answers? Not necessarily as we don't always have the answers revealed to us or we don't always see them even if they are.

I do know that some people say "it is Gods will" and don't even try to take it to God. I have even had those that called me crazy if I thought that God could/would heal them. I also know that the Bible says that as long as we are in the flesh that we will suffer the things of the flesh.


As for your question on Mary Magdalene. I would venture to say that not all prostitutes then or now necessasarily are demon possessed but rather that they are not possessed of the Holy Spirit. They are lost and wandering.

Wise and studied council brother.

When I used the word theologian I was miles from "pastor".

I tend to think of a pastor as a shepherd (as per the greek word) I realize many pastors are great teachers and expositors, but I was thinking of the dedicated, one thing only,
hunkered over the books and treatises, full blown scholar sort of theologian. Imagine luther or Calvin and volumes upon volumes of endless tediom.

I was not suggesting all prostitutes are posessed. Just that it's possible our world is full of demon activity of a kind other than I was considering with the crowd I saw at the park...
Just people who are miles deep in drugs, sex, violence and darkness. There truly are hell-holes of depravity in evey city and in every country. If Jesus cast out "many" demons in that small mid-eastern locality...just imagine New York or Singapore.

Thankyou for your e-loship

Bairn

My mistake. You did say theologian and not pastor.



Of this I am sure.

I won't add to the topic, as Pastor Roger has done an excellent job. I just wanted to say that I am heart sick to know your wife is so ill. I lost my brother to cancer just over two years ago. He was only 45. I pray to our Holy, Merciful Father, that He will heal your dear wife my brother.

John

Brother Bairn, I have added your wife, brother and you to my prayer list. I know all to well how much of a toll such health issues can take on family members as well.

Thankyou brothers.
God is strong tower. In His presense is fullness of joy.
This forum is a remarkable medium for fellowship and I have been very blessed here.

Your prayers and understanding are much appreciated.

Agape
Bairn

dear layman bairn
my name is gabriella and i am a born again christian i am so sorry that your wife has cancer,my grandfather had cancer,he was a catholic and didnt really believe in god until he got cancer. my family and i prayed that he would get healed then i was reading in the bible and come across a verse in luke that states that the greatest healing god could ever give to someone is take them home to heaven to be with him.so god took my grandfather to heaven before he passed away he asked jesus into his heart and had a real experience with god,he even went to heaven but come back because my grandmother wouldnt let him go.
so whatever the out come just remember that eventhough things to pass from this life to the next god is with them and there is no time in heaven so i will see my grandfather soon.
love from follow christian
gab

Gab,

God be with you and with your spirit.

Thank you for the sweet words and encouragement in The Lord.

Agape

Bairn