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Here's an interesting question:

Could God create a boulder so large that not even he could lift it?  If so, that would mean that he has limited strength.  If not, that means his powers of creation are limited.  

Any thoughts?  

Dientamin,

There is no answer because the question itself is flawed.

The question simply demonstrates that it is possible to take any language, jumble words together and come out with a structurally sound sentence. The problem is that it still doesn't guarantee a logical question.

An analogous question would be:

"How heavy is the color yellow?"

Well said, Corpus

I don't understand why the question is illegitimate.  Asking about the weight of a color is an illegitmate question because color is in no way related to weight.  However, asking a question about God's power to create objects makes perfect sense because God does have the power to create.  Weight is not a property of color, but creating is an ability of God.  It may be a paradoxical question, but your analogy is flawed, not the question.

Here's a well-recognized example of a paradoxical question that is nonetheless a legitimate question - which came first, the chicken or the egg?  This question has no definite answer - the chicken couldn't come first because it had to have hatched from an egg, and the egg couldn't have come first because something had to lay it.  However, that's not to say that there is no answer; it's just that we can't come up with a plausible answer.

The question Dientamin asked poses a similar paradox - God couldn't create a boulder so heavy that he couldn't lift it because his powers are unlimited and he can lift anything.  But then, if he couldn't create a boulder so heavy that he couldn't lift it, that would mean his powers of creation were limited.  So if God's powers truly are unlimited, this question is apprently paradoxical.  That doesn't mean that there is no answer and it isn't a legitimate question, though.

Yes but thats what a chicken does  :D    God is greater than His creation.   He cannot outcreate Himself, because He is perfect.   Does that make Him limited, or does that make Him greater?    Whether or not one could answer the question makes little difference, sorta like the chicken and the egg....its a useless excercise.

There are things that God cannot do.  Surprising?  

1. God cannot allow sin to go unjudged.
2. God cannot force you to accept Him.
3. God can never leave a believer once he accepts Christ.
4. God cannot remember your sin once you ask for forgivness.

Now that we have those out of the way, heres a question for you!

Do you know God and where you will spend eternity?   Would you like to know?

These I have answers for, and both are much more important that Gods rock building abilities.

Grace and Peace!

It's funny...your I.P. is almost identical to Dientamin's.

Moderator

There is no such animal as a divine "paradox."  To even claim such would entail having total and complete understanding of God’s nature – something no man has.  A ‘paradox’ is a man-made puzzle which is a result of ignorance.  Keeping this in mind, your questions are not, in fact, 'legitimate'.  I would define them as 'troll' questions.

Firefox,

It is illegitimate because built into the question is the premise that God has limitations.

One of the most elementary Christian teachings about God is that He has no limitations. Just as assuming a correlation about color and weight makes no sense in a question about the weight of a color, so too assuming a correlation between God and limitations makes no sense in asking the limitations of God.

If the question was re-worded to ask, "Does God have limitations?" then it would at least fulfill the requirement of being both structurally sound as well as logical, and most importantly, enable people to answer it.

 There be Trolls in them thar hills! :D

Bronzesnake

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v605/DreamWeaver000/scram.gif) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v605/DreamWeaver000/lalala.gif)  how many times are they going to (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v605/DreamWeaver000/deadhorse.gif) . I mean, (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v605/DreamWeaver000/bigfootwalk.gif)  should be on a (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v605/DreamWeaver000/ballchain.gif).

It's funny...your I.P. is almost identical to Dientamin's.

That's because we go to the same school.  I'm not the same person as Dientamin, if that's what you're implying.  He doesn't even know I registered here.  And I'm not trying to troll; Corpus's analogy just didn't make sense to me, and I was trying to clarify it.

A ‘paradox’ is a man-made puzzle which is a result of ignorance.

The actual definition of "paradox" is: An assertion that is essentially self-contradictory, though based on a valid deduction from acceptable premises.  This applies to both the chicken/egg question and the boulder question.

One of the most elementary Christian teachings about God is that He has no limitations.

What about those limitations that 2nd Timothy posted above?

With those limitations taken into consideration, what if God wanted to make a boulder so heavy that He could not lift it?  Since He has no limitations, He could create such a boulder.  But in doing so, He would create a limitation in that He would not be able to lift the boulder.  So if God's powers truly are limitless, he would also have the power to limit his own power, no?

Just as assuming a correlation about color and weight makes no sense in a question about the weight of a color, so too assuming a correlation between God and limitations makes no sense in asking the limitations of God.

The question isn't necessarily asking if God has limitations, it's asking if he can create limitations.  I can understand why you compare it to the color/weight question, but it's not exactly the same correlation.  This question is a paradox; the color/weight question just doesn't make any sense to begin with.

There be Trolls in them thar hills!

Like I said before, I'm not trying to troll.  I can't speak for Dientamin, but I think this question is worth asking and would like to hear what you guys have to say about it.

Firefox quote...


 So you know Dientamin? Did he tell you his username?
He goes to your school and he doesn't know you registered here huh?

 Is it an amazing coincidence that you both happened to register on the same day only hours apart, and he apparantly doesn't know you registered here?

Sounds fishy my friend. I'll give you the benefit of doubt (and there is serious doubt) for now.

Moderator

Yes, I know him.  He told me he registered here, so later on I looked at the thread he made.  Then I registered and posted here; I never told him I was registering.  He won't realize I registered until he reads this.

OK my friend. Like I said, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

I hope you enjoy your experience here. Please realize that we have to be vigilant here, we do get targeted frequently, so we're careful.

Moderator

Posting from my home PC so as to eliminate suspicions (check my IP, mods).  

JudgeNot said:
.
Dientamin Answered:
You prove my point, thank you.  Below is your quote with my rebuttal in parentheses:
The actual definition of "paradox" (Man’s definition) is: An assertion that is essentially self-contradictory, (to man) though based on a valid deduction from acceptable premises. (Certainly not talking about God here – define acceptable premises – premises of man’s ignorance?)  This applies to both the chicken/egg question and the boulder question.  (Nope – God knows which came first – if indeed they didn’t come at the same time!  As far as the boulder – get off it, the question is not a ‘paradox’ except in a shallow mind.  Who ever gave you that question to post never took into account the need or purpose of the ‘what-if’.)
If you are looking for answers about God, Webster’s just doesn’t measure up to the Bible.  ;)
God Bless
JN

The needs of the one outweigh the needs of many.....Live long and prosper!   :D

Spock would be proud of you guys...lol   ahem...OK sorry couldn't resist the Star Trek pun.



For those on this thread interested in Logic, have look at carms discussion on this question.

Can God make a rock so big He can't pick it up?

This question is representative of the type of paradoxes atheists use in attempts to prove that God cannot exist.  It works like this.  God is supposed to be omnipotent.  If He is omnipotent, then He can create a rock so big that He can't pick it up.  If He cannot make a rock like this, then He is not omnipotent.  If He can make a rock so big He can't pick it up, then He isn't omnipotent either.  Either way demonstrates that God cannot do something.  Therefore God is not omnipotent.  Therefore God does not exist.  
     Is this logical?  A little.  However, the problem is that this bit of logic omits some crucial information, therefore, it's conclusion is inaccurate.
     What the above "paradox" lacks is vital information concerning God's nature.  His omnipotence is not something independent of His nature.  It is part of His nature.  God has a nature and His attributes operate within that nature, as does anything and everything else.  
     For example, I have human nature.  I can run.  But, I cannot outrun a lion.  My nature simply does not permit it.  My ability to run is connected to my nature and I cannot violate it.  So too with God.  His omnipotence is connected to His nature since being omnipotent is part of what He is.  Omnipotence, then, must be consistent with what He is and not with what He is not since His omnipotence is not an entity to itself.  Therefore, God can only do those things that are consistent with His nature. He cannot lie because it is against His nature to do so. Not being able to lie does not mean He is not God or that He is not all powerful.  Also, He cannot cease to be God.  Since He is in all places at all times, if He stopped existing then He wouldn't be in all places at all time.  Therefore, He cannot cease to exist without violating His own nature.  
     The point is that God cannot do something that is a violation of His own existence and nature.  Therefore, He cannot make a rock so big he can't pick up, or make something bigger than Himself, etc.   But, not being able to do this does not mean He is not God nor that He is not omnipotent. Omnipotence is not the ability to do anything conceivable, but the ability to do anything consistent with His nature and consistent with His desire within the realm of His unlimited and universal power which we do not possess.  This does not mean He can violate His own nature.  If He did something inconsistent with His nature, then He would be self contradictory. If God were self contradictory, He would not be true. Likewise, if He did something that violated his nature, like make a rock so big He can't pick it up, He would also not be true since that would be a self contradiction.  Since truth is not self contradictory, as neither is God, if He were not true, then He would not be God.  But God is true and not self contradictory, therefore, God cannot do something that violates His own nature.
     Another way to look at it is realize that in order for God to make something so big He couldn't pick it up, He would have to make a rock bigger than Himself.  Since He is infinite in size, He would have to make something that would be bigger than Himself.  Since it is His nature to be the biggest thing in existence because He created all things, He cannot violate His own nature by making a rock that is larger than He.
     Also, since a rock, by definition, is not infinitely big, then it isn't logically possible to make a rock, something that is finite in size, be infinite in size (no longer a rock) since only God is infinite in size.  At dictionary.com, a rock is defined as a "Relatively hard, naturally formed mineral or petrified matter; stone. a) A relatively small piece or fragment of such material. b) A relatively large body of such material, as a cliff or peak. c) A naturally formed aggregate of mineral matter constituting a significant part of the earth's crust."  A rock, by definition is not infinitely large.  So, to say that the rock must be so big that God cannot pick it up is to say that the rock is no longer a rock.
     What the critics are asking is that God become self contradictory as a proof He doesn't exist.  Their assertion is illogical from the start.  So what they are doing is trying to get God to be illogical.  They want to use illogic to prove God doesn't exist instead of logic.  It doesn't work and the "paradox" is self-refuting and invalid.
********************************************


Truly dizzing intellect, but like I said, its a useless excercise.

NOW, for a truly logical question that might even trip up Mr. Spock.

How can God give His own sinless Son, to die in place of undeserving sinners?

I know its a tricky question, but I assure you its far from useless to know the answer to this one.   Think about it wont you?  The answer just might save your life!   :)

Grace and Peace!

Firefox and Dientamin,

I think Tim has already answered well enough, but I will add this:

Are there assumptions built into belief in God? From a purely scientific-tangible-evidence point of view I suppose so. A more important question though is whether Christianity has ever shied away from those 'assumptions,' and the answer is no. We however embrace them wholeheartedly as something called faith. In many ways it is no different from the faith others put into mathematical equations and logical causalities. The distinction is that Christian faith is infinitely more fulfilling. And that is why a 'paradox' or any other such riddle posited to a Christian will always be a somewhat useless exercise. I'm not trying to insult in stating this, only pointing out that Christianity lives and breathes outside logic and philosophical musings. In the hands of a Christian, exercises in rationality are simply tools that might be used to help explain Christianity using the language of the logician. In the end though, it is only faith in God that brings us to the realization of our own destiny.

God bless...

He's not the one who said that...

Calet,

So, which one are you the return of:

OMGWTFBBQ
Firefox1337
Dientamin

Or, are all three and you the same person?

Moderator

A answer to Dientamin and an observation firefix 1337

first the observation "Which came first the chicken or the egg?"

Which came first GOD then the word of God which says "Gen. 1:21 to 25 God created all the animals that are on the earth, not eggs but animals so the only conclusion to reach is the chicken came first.

now my answer to the creation question posted. All things are possible to God, his ways are not understood by man. to try to limit God to our understanding will always bring up many unanswerable questions. to try to put some things into prespective here is an example. Henry Ford a slight man created the model T ford, but he could not lift it. If this can be done by man how much more can God do. Logic was created by man to try to explain things that confounded him, putting your FAITH OF GOD IN GOD allows you to not be bothered by such, but allows you to do that which God has ordained you to do. What has God ordained you to do is a much more worth while question to ponder.

Praise God and seek him and all thses other things will be yours

I think it's time to contact the school where these IP's are listed and be rid of this foolishness.

Moderator

This is Firefox1337.  I registered again, not to bother you guys, but to apologize.  I myself had no real intention of offending or annoying anyone, but apparently some people I know do.  I've already had a talk with them, and none of us want to cause any trouble over this.

I will leave you guys alone now, and so will my friends.  You'll probably ban this account anyway; I just wanted to let you know that I've taken care of things here and you won't be having any more problems with us.

I'm really sorry that things got out of hand, and I hope there are no hard feelings.  I certainly meant none.  I just wanted to apologize for this act of immaturity on my friends' and my part.  We don't want any trouble to be caused by this, and we will all leave now if that's what you want.

Firefox1338,

You might tell OMGWTFBBQ this his distribution of filth and obscenity here was a criminal act that could result in criminal charges, a visit from the Secret Service, confiscation of computer equipment, and jail. I doubt this matter will be pursued by ADMIN, but it could be.

The best and smartest course of action for your crew right now would be to leave Christians Unite alone and go play elsewhere.

Moderator

Wow, I had no idea he did any of that.  To be honest, I don't even know who "OMGWTFBBQ" is, but I will find out and talk with him.  Again, I'm really sorry about all this; I never intended to cause any serious problems like this, and I don't think Dientamin did, either.

I will definitely tell all of my friends to leave this forum alone.  I really don't want any legal problems to arise from this, and I know that my friends don't either.  I hope you'll accept my apology on behalf of my friend(s), who apparently acted very immature here.  From what I've read here, you guys are mostly very nice people and don't deserve the kind of treatment that you've been given.  I'll find out who OMGWTFBBQ is and talk to him about this, and I feel fairly certain that he will leave you guys alone.

I just talked to Dientamin, and we're not completely sure who did it.  But we will ask our friends and see who it was, and we will make sure they know not to do it again.  I doubt he will go to the trouble of making multiple accounts or anything like that, so I don't think you'll be bothered by him again.

I'm very sorry that all this happened.  Dientamin had registered with this question in mind; not really trying to troll, just to see what you guys had to say.  And I only registered to refute and argument that I thought didn't make sense (BTW, Timothy's explanation makes sense to me, and I see where the question is flawed.  I still don't like the color/weight analogy, though).  OMGWTFBBQ clearly got things out of hand, and I'm very sorry he did so.  I ask that you forgive him for being so immature (and stupid, really), and I give you my word that I will do everything I can to make sure this doesn't happen again.