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Please give me some reason why some christian says that contraceptive is against to the will of God.

I don't know of the scriptures some will use but some would say that it subverts the point and plan of God to do so.

Some will argue that its only purpose is to have wrongful sex (very strange idea from those I've heard use it, if you're married).

My Aunt feels this way and fully trusts that if the Lord wants you to have a child you will get pregnant and like wise vice versa.

Since being saved she and her husband have stuck by this belief and have only had one child since in 11 years.  It's enough to make me believe it to be true.

Most of the time contraception is used as a means to have premarital sex and believe that it's existance promotes such behavior.   To this I can sort of agree but I personally have no scripture to give for it and have not bothered to study it.  I'm not married so at the moment any sexual activity would be sinful and blatantly against the Word.

Explicitly? No, but implicitly, perhaps. Keep in the mind that there's nothing in scripture about bounding fragmentation mines, but placing one in my neighbor's yard could hardly be justified on that account.


Consider the following:

WHAT DOES the Bible say about contraception? "Nothing!" reply many today--including  many biblical scholars. Yet traditional manuals of moral theology cite Genesis 38:6-10 as an argument against contraception. Does this passage have anything to offer on the question? Let's look at the text:

"Judah got a wife named Tamar for his firstborn, Er. But Er, Judah's firstborn, greatly offended the Lord, so the Lord took his life. Then Judah said to Onan, 'Unite with your brother's widow, in fulfillment of your duty as brother-in-law, and thus preserve your brother's line.'

"Onan, however, knew that the descendents would not be counted as his; so, whenever he had relations with his brother's widow, he wasted his seed on the ground, to avoid contributing offspring for his brother. What he did greatly offended the Lord, and the Lord took his life too."

Onan was supposed to marry his deceased brother's childless widow. This practice, known as the Levirate law (from the Latin levir, meaning "a husband's brother"), was required by the Law of Moses (Deut. 25:5-10) and was intended to insure an unmarried brother would "raise up seed for the deceased brother that his name be not blotted out of Israel."

The argument against contraception, specifically coitus interruptus, based on this passage used to be considered straightforward. In recent years, both Protestant and Catholic commentators have downplayed, if not outright rejected, the anti-contraception interpretation of this text. Their argument goes like this: Onan's sin consisted solely in his abandonment of his familial obligations to his dead brother. Onan performed the act which bears his name because the child which might have resulted would have been counted as his brother's, rather than his own--something Onan found intolerable.

The difficulty with this argument is that violation of the Levirate law was not a capital offense. If a man didn't fulfill his obligations to his deceased brother's wife, she was to take the matter to the elders, who would counsel him and try to persuade him to change his mind. If he persisted, the widow was to "go up to him and strip his sandal from his foot and spit in his face, saying publicly, 'This is how one should be treated who will not build up his brother's family!'" (Deut. 25:9).

While such a punishment might be embarrassing, it falls short of the death sentence Onan received for his act. This suggests he sinned not only by violating the Levirate law, but also by the way in which he did so. The kind of act he committed was so despicable that, in the Old Testament context, it was punishable by death.

John Kippley, in Covenant, Christ and Contraception (New York: Alba House, 1970, page 19), explains it this way:

"Onan went through the motions of the life-giving act but refused to accept the consequences. He withdrew in order that the act could carry no reproductive consequences . . . [H]e went through the motions of the Levirate covenant, but he denied the reality of that covenant."

By acting contraceptively, Onan robbed gotcha146 of its life-giving meaning and acted against the good of his potential offspring's life. Both his intent and his concrete actions were against life. As a result, Onan received the Old Testament penalty for his crime.

Silver,

I think it would help if you gave some examples.

I also think it is important to notice how the Christian arguments in favor of birth control have proliferated at the same time as the abortion mentality has established its death grip on our culture. Culturally, the birth control mindset is the mother of abortion. Both celebrate choice; both view children as a burden; both ignore God’s plan for multiplying children as a vehicle for the spread of his kingdom. Christians have been immersed in the polluted well of humanist thought, and, though most may have rejected the overt philosophy of humanism, they have nonetheless conformed their practice to that which grows from the humanist worldview . . . the Christian who is challenged on the subject of birth control would do well to consider if his practice is the fruit of the Word or of the world

Genesis 38:8-10 And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother. And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother. And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also.

What does Scripture itself tell us? This objection is nice speculation, but Scripture only gives us that God kills him after he had sex with his new wife, and withdrew from her to avoid her having children: (birth control.)  He is specifically said to destroy the seed, not merely spill seed, as we have seen. It doesn't tell us he 'thought this, or thought that', but what he DID was wicked in the Lord's sight, so he put him to death. This willful destruction of seed is an awful deed.

It is true that God does not punish directly today and in the New Covenant, in the exact same way that he punished Onan in Genesis 38. We know that adultery in the OT is treated differently than adultery in the NT (at least in reference to temporal consequences, although eternal consequences would be the same). Jesus did not stone the woman for adultery. Likewise, we are not called to stone women for adultery. However, the principles of morality established are carried over as well into the New Testament, even if the consequences are different. God would also be just as opposed to contraception now, as he was then, even if he doesn't directly kill people now, just as he doesn't directly kill adulterers now. However, God is opposed to adultery back then, just as he is opposed to adultery now. In the same way, God opposed birth control back then (as evidenced by Genesis 38) as he opposes birth control now.

 Scripture tells us that sex in the marriage covenant is the renewal of a covenant. Likewise, in Acts 5:1-11, Ananias and Sapphira went through the motions of a covenantal act but defrauded it, and both were stricken dead when they each engaged in this deception. Onan's responsibility in Genesis 38 to Tamar was a covenenantal obligation; so was the obligation of Ananias and Sapphira to be honest with the apostles. The act of marital intercourse is also a covenantal act intended by the Creator to be a renewal of the faith and caring love pledged at marriage. The Onan account directly supports the Christian Tradition that we are obliged not to defraud this covenantal act by contraception, and the Ananias-Sapphira account shows how seriously God takes the defrauding of covenantal acts.

I pray this helps you out.
Bob

Proverbs 22:1 A good name is rather to be chosen than great riches, and loving favour rather than silver and gold.

[quote author=Silver

God expects us to act responsibly, and sometimes this means not having too many children in a marriage.  Contraceptives are a RESPONSIBLE way to avoid the burden of too many children.  

There is nothing in the bible whatsoever about the use of contraceptives.

Many, many married couples use contraceptives (so no, most of the time its not for premarital sex, Saved_4ever).  What’s the reason to use them in a marriage?  Because sometimes it is outright stupid and foolish to have children, and God expects us to use our brains.

God bless,
Silver

I have no numbers in front of me but I would contest that the number of people using contraceptives (not that everyone would even admit to such) is MUCH higher among non married peoples.

To Corpus and Dreamweaver I'd have to say, those two similar if not the same, expositions seem a little off from the what the scripture is actually saying.  I have seen this same scripture used to say the er um "self pleasure" if you will is wrong and I can't see that at all from these verses.  I'm going to have to kindly disagree with the thought derived here.

At least though, it doesn't say that Ananias and Sapphira were killed for not giving money to the church hence proving that one should give EVERYTHING to the church.

Not at all.
Ever heard of Free Will?
Why should we follow something/someone who tell us how to live our life?

You're 100% correct. God gave us fre will. He also told us that those who exercised this free will to deny Him, would walk into an eternal Lake of Fire of their own free will.

Bronzesnake

Maybe because many people make a mess out of their lives.

You’re right, things like the bible, our Parents (as children), or pastor and other respectable men of God we know and trust. ::) Yeah, if we CHOOSE to listen to them, it would go against our free will. ::)

Ok, all sarcasm aside, that is dangerously close of Theological Anarchy. We have free-will, the have the choice to be a Christian or not, a choice to be a member of a particular group of the Church or not. You wouldn’t join the Army, and then refuse to wear the uniform or go to Basic Training because it “goes against your free-will” would you? You can’t have all the benefits of being a member of a group, and not follow the rules (unless you’re a Kennedy ;D )!

Talk about a hot button issue!  


I don't believe the bible directly addresses this issue anywhere.   I have seen the Gen 38 argument about it before, but I tend to agree with s4e regarding it.   What was God really displeased about that Onan did?   Was it that he withdrew spilling his seed?  Or was it that He put His will ahead of his fathers request?    Since messiah was to come from Judah, He was also in a sense negating that too.    Also of interest in the passage, (to me anyways) is that Onan was aware of this technique in regards to contraception albeit not very effective.   Seems one could argue that passage all day though.

I don't see where it would go against God to raise a family wisely.   Would having more children than you could properly support or raise be a wise thing to do?   Before someone says that "God says not to fret for tomorrow or what you will eat", would it be prudent to not go out and seek work whereby you could afford to eat, but instead wait for manna to fall out of the sky?   God has entrusted us with properly raising our families and put US in charge of that.   We don't sit around waiting for God to raise our children, WE must do it as we are entrusted with that.   What about people that never marry?   Are they sinning because God said be fruitful and multiply?   No!

You could probably pose the same argument about modern medicine as well.    Is it wrong to take medication that would alter the natural course of ones death?   I would say no!

No where does Gods word say its a sin to use controception (that I can see), but I would certainly spend some time praying about what God says to you concerning it.

I would add that I definitely think it would be wrong to use controception that causes the death of the fetus.   This would indeed be immoral.   Which raises even more questions about which type of controception would be acceptable.

I know there are probably many opinions about this, but Gods is the only one that matters.  Ask Him what He would have you do.   :)

Grace and Peace!

There is really a broad range of belief among Christians about contraception.  There are the "quiverful" conservatives who believe they should have as many "little blessings" as nature and God allows in their marriage.  There WERE the Shakers who had men and women living in separate dormitories and shared a communal lifestyle.  They didn't believe in marriage or having their own children (they were celibate).  They were only allowed to increase their numbers through adoption of orphaned children and by conversions.  The Shaker sect died out, conservative Christians are still around, in large numbers.

There must have been some reason for Genesis 1:28  "God blessed them and said to them, 'Be fruitful and increase in number, full the earth, and subdue it."    After all the Creator of the earth and all things gave humans and all living things the ability to reproduce.  Possibly because creating is a good thing.  So particularly for humans, sex isn't just for recreation, it's for procreation or why would God have given us the ability to sexually reproduce?  Some Christians do believe that God will limit the size of their families just as God limits our lifespan.  Although that is no comfort at all the Christians who have no children due to infertility problems.

I have no problem with good Christian parents having 10 or 12 children.  It is just that most North Americans and Europeans see having many children as a problem.  They feel there are limiting factors to their family size.  North Americans tend to limit their family numbers to what they can fit in a minivan.  Their complaint is that it is irresponsible to have more children than they can afford to educate, pay for medical insurance and drive around.  In countries where there is free education and medical care, some people still only have two children or less because of other limiting factors:  home size (Sweden), government policy (China).  

In ideal situations, why don't Chrisitians have more children?   It is their unGodly attitude that doesn't allow them to put God in control of their lives and see children as a blessing.

Contraception is nothing new.  Various crude methods and herbs were used by the ancient Romans.  Many ancient cultures had herbs they used to either help get pregnant, stop pregnancies or prevent them.  More often, unwanted children (with bad parents) would just leave their newborns outside to die.  If adoption was acceptable then, it would have been practiced.  Adoption and saving of orphans is a Christian idea.  Adoption is being attacked and destroyed now along with abortion being promoted.

Some methods of contraception such as abortion and IUD's are objectionable to Christians.  Some Christians believe that the baby's life starts at conception.  Some Christians don't believe in using any form of artificial means of contraception and will obstain from sex during the fertile part of a woman's cycle.  Others still will only have sex when the woman is most fertile.  

As for what I believe,  I really wish I knew why I don't have any children.  I am willing to believe God knows what is best for me.  Not all Christians should have 20 children nor is that God's will for them.  Jesus did not have any children while he lived on this earth among us.  Paul the Apostle didn't have any children and preferred to remain celibate.  Good Christian parents should be encouraged to have more children.

what does this have to do with contraception???

She brought up free will.

Are you sad today my friend? Is life getting you down? You seem like you've lost all hope. I'll keep praying for you my friend. Hey, if you need to talk I'm here for you my brother/sister. :)

Bronzesnake

I think one has to be careful about making a doctrine that is not clearly outlined in scripture.   Is there such a doctrine in scripture about controception?   Not that I can see.   We are free in Christ when we are not going directly against what His word teaches.   I think this might be a good place to mention the verse about working out our own salvation with fear and trembling.   Strong emphasis on fear and trembling.    ;)

Grace and Peace!

I will be honest.  I have never really pondered this issue in great depth.  I've always just figured that there was never wrong with contraception (providing it doesn't kill a fetus).  Some strong arguments have been made both ways.  However, I tend to agree with those whom defended my original position.  I don't see any clear indication in Scripture of contraception being wrong and the allusion to the Genesis account concerning the gentleman who "spilled his seed" seems like a particularly weak defense of the anti-contraception stance.  This text appears to be more Messiah centred than anything else.  Let's keep in mind that our God is not void of common sense.  He gave all of us this gift for a reason.  Common sense tells me that if you can't afford more kids than you have...wear protection.  If you don't have the temperment for kids...wear protection.  What's the problem here?  Arguing otherwise reminds me of those lost JW's refusing blood transfusions.  Reading into Scripture crazy carnal ideas.  No wonder most non-Christians think we are crazy people... We are in the world but not of it...but let's remember that we are IN the world.  Until this reality ceases, I think that Christians should all be living by this rule of thumb: If the Word of God does not mention a doctrine specifically...odds are God is telling us to use our COMMON SENSE.  Don't buy a dog if you like cats...

God bless in Jesus' name...

In which version of the Bible did you read that or wasit in one of the comics. ;)

What I am saying is this.  (The following illustration will provide a basis for my defense:) Some people pray for God to heal their headaches.  Yet, this same God they are praying to also gave them money and a drug store to buy medication in.  Yes, God does work miracles.  However, sometimes the answer is more simple than we would have assumed.  I believe that God usually only intervenes supernaturally when his provisions in the natural capacity will not suffice.  How does this apply to the situation at hand?  Some say, "Don't use contraception and just trust God not to get pregnant" (providing one believed that conception was not His will for them at the time).  Yes, God could answer that prayer.  But God probably won't because a little bit of faith in common sense (which He gave us) would rather dictate one taking a trip to the drug store for some condoms.  Our God is a simple God.  Take the cross for instance.  He uses the foolish things of this world to confound the wise.  My point is this: I think that God is capable of all things, yet at the same time, He wants us to utilize the capabilities He gave us: REASON AND COMMON SENSE.  Show me a verse in the Bible that explicitly condemns contraception and I will happily conceed.  Until then, this arguement appears to be splitting hairs.

Interesting that someone would say "Some say, "Don't use contraception and just trust God not to get pregnant"
Is getting pregnant such a terrible thing?  

Maybe we need to look at this problem from a global perspective.   Some of the  countries that have the worst poverty have the most children.  Sometimes even when birth control methods are available.  Why then do these people have so many children?   Because children are their insurance policy and their cultures value children as precious.   Children are a joy, a symbol of hope.  Westerners see the third or fourth child as a burden on their time and finances.  

Look at China.  Yes it is a large populous country.  They have a "one family, one child" policy.  It is not just propoganda.  It is forced upon everyone.  Women's cycles are monitored by a neighbourhood committee.  Families having more than one child are fined.  Abortions are the most common form of birth control.  Women can not just keep having abortions.  After about three abortions most women can't have full term pregnancy because it damages their bodies.  The Chinese have little choice and many have not had the opportunity to know Christ.

Some Christian countries have tried to ban birth control due to the influence of the RC church (Ireland) or government policy (Romania).  Even when some birth control methods are legal they might be hard to find.  Most doctors wouldn't prescribe them and pharmacists won't stock them.  So then what do people do?

The Catholic Church has not faced the reality of 21stC and their stand on birth control is largely ignored by their membership in North America.  Having large families of children who were unplanned and can't be properly cared for doesn't glorify God.  Those who preach against contraception are mysteriously absent when it comes to providing support for those families who listed to them..

That is the same logic they use to prove abortions should be legaized!

jgarden,

I certainly hope you're not suggesting that because a segment of a population, even a majority supports something, it has then passed some sort of 'God's-will' litmus test?


So God only glories in well-planned, moderate to small sized families that are "properly" cared for?


How have those preaching against contraception not supported the famiilies listening to them?

jesusavedme,

I understand your point, and yet...would disagree with your assessment of God and common sense. If there is anything we learn through scripture, it is that God defies man's 'common sense.' Christ's parables are proof enough.

It is worth noting that up until 1930, all Christian churches opposed contraception as an unnatural and thus impermissible interference with God’s design for human sexuality. That changed when, at their 1930 Lambeth Conference, Anglicans began permitting the use of contraception on a limited basis; other denominations quickly absorbed the secular sexual morality that flooded into the world. Things grew so bad that by the early 1970s some religious leaders were advocating not only contraception, but even abortion (for those who would argue against the slippery-slope). When abortion was legalized by the U.S. Supreme Court in 1973, many of these ministers rethought the issue and became firmly prolife. In recent years, as the prolife mindset has grown strong in religious circles, many are reconsidering the issue of contraception and are rejecting the contraceptive mindset. In doing so, they are recognizing the path contraception takes us down, and returning to the historic position of Christianity and the position of their own forebears.

Patrick Fagan has an article on contraception in various places on the web.  He is the William H.G. FitzGerald Senior Fellow in Family and Cultural Issues at the Heritage Foundation in Washington, D.C.  UMCPage.org. has a website with loads of moral issues articles.  The article I'm thinking about is "A Culture of Inverted Sexuality."  It's also reprinted on http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/sexuality/se0049.html

It's the best article I've ever read on the subject and would highly recommend it.

I mentioned this back in Dec. 04 in Theology----Re. Birth Control started by Philippians 4:13.  It's the 2nd reply. :)

I took a look at this article.   There is quite a bit reasoning going on without any scripture to back up much of what is said.    Again you could make the same argument for whether pharmaceuticals are sinful in our day and age.  

Heres a small quote...


The abandonment of the reproductive function is the common feature of all perversions.   ???

I want to be careful here, but this statement cannot be backed up scripturally any where.   Jesus did not marry and have children.   Did he abandon any reproductive command from God....absolutely not!   He was sinless!  

Is marital sex only for the purpose of reproduction?   Read Song of songs sometime.   Sex is Gods wedding gift to married couples, and scripture clearly points out the pleasure and intimacy value God intended between man and wife, not necessarily just for the purpose of having children.  

To be fair, the Bible also no where mentions NOT having children either, so there is no easy answer.

I will say it again.   This is something that I believe is between God and the married couple involved, as there simply IS NO doctrine outlined in scripture concerning contraception.  To create doctrine from human reasoning is not the answer.  Seeking Gods will in our lives when the answer is not clear is the only sensible course, and that would probably not be the same for each married couple, as God has different plans for each of us.

Grace and Peace!

Hi Tim,

Here's another website, if you're interested, http://www.totustuus.com/q+a.htm

They suggest reading a book by Charles Provan, "The Bible and Birth Control" which is written from a protestant perspective giving solid biblical arguments showing the evil of contraception.

When you get to the website, just click on "contraception".  This particular article is only about a page long. :)

 

I just clicked on the page I gave you and it said I had encountered an error.  Then it said to go back to their home page.  I did and found a menu on the left side of that page.  Just click on the Q & A and it will take you to where the article is.

Sorry that happened. :P

Thanks for the link.

A few quotes:

While I agree with the premise of the argument, what happens if we apply the same to the use of medicine for health?   Or what about clipping our toe nails to make a silly argument?   Are we saying that we do not trust God with our health or these small details in our life?   Its a stretch me thinks.   I'm reminded of the story about the fellow who was standing on the roof of his house as the floods came up.   He asked God to rescue him.    As Boats kept going by he would refuse their help and say that God was going to rescue Him.   :)   Its sort of the same thing here.

Heres another quote:


In this quote they reverse what was said in the first.  The first quote says contraception is rejection of Lordship over our lives, and here they say its OK provided its done without the use of aids  ???   Sounds very lawish if you ask me.

I certainly do not want anyone going by what I say is right or wrong, but I still see no scriptural evidence provided to make a claim either way.   I do believe that it is something that should be prayed about, but I personally am not convinced it is sin or wrong.   Just for clarity here, I will say that there is no question about the moral implications of the destruction of a fetus via contraception.   This I agree wholeheartedly would be wrong.

Grace and Peace!

Tim,

I don't see that they reversed what they said.  Natural Family Planning (NFP) isn't contraception.

I haven't read the book but would like to, one of these days.  

All Christianity considered birth control a sin until 1930.  They certainly felt led by the Holy Spirit.  For almost 2000 years it was a sin and now it isn't, hmmm.

Everyone has to choose for themselves.  It's a very worthy discussion and much has been written on it.  

I can understand why both sides feel the way they do.  I don't know which article I read it in, but it said there is virtually O divorce with couples practicing NFP.  Interesting!

cris

I hear you Cris.  It is a frustrating issue because there is not much said about it in scripture.   A lot of christians believed woman wearing jeans, going to the movies, woman cutting their hair, playing football etc was sin back in the day.  Fortunately what believers think is not what makes it sin, its what God thinks.


Having several wives was not considered sin for several thousand years and suddenly it is?   Hmmm   :D   (OKOK I'm being really sarcastic now...lol....forgive me!  :D )   Believers today  feel led today by the same indwelling of Holy Spirit that is the same yesterday today and forever.   If one feels conviction about using contraception, then by all means do not.   But we cannot cast our own conviction on our brothers and sisters because we think it might be wrong or are convicted of it ourselves.   Its up to God to lead each of us into that truth through prayer and seeking.  


Amen!   To be honest with you I don't know why I keep coming back to this thread.  It is an interesting subject, but one I believe wont be settled as black or white simply because its grey.

Grace and Peace!

2nd Tim,

I don't know why I keep coming back to this thread, either.  From my understanding, in Christianity there's only black and white, no grey.  A completely different story in the world though, there's black, white and grey.

In reference to having several wives and it not being considered a sin, that was the culture and wasn't considered sin.  Jesus Christ changed that.  He said God allowed multiple wives and divorce because of the hardness of their hearts but it had not always been that way.  The NT or rather Jesus Christ said, no more.

Be fruitful and multiply is a command to married people.  When someone says they believe contraception is acting responsibly because---------------well, I'm not so sure about that.  Where's our faith that the Lord will provide for those children?  Where's our faith that He won't allow more children than we can care for?  The Christian life is a disciplined life------------in all areas.  When did bible change the command to be fruitful and multiply?  Rhetorical question!  Jesus changed the marriage and divorce laws but not the be fruitful and multiply one.

Personally, I think God would have made us to be infertile most of the time if He had created the sexual act for mostly pleasure.  Just my opinion.

In case you might think I'm holier than thou, I'm not.  I'm guilty.

If one practices NFP, it's not contraception.  It's acting responsibly but allowing ourselves to be open to life, if God so chooses that for us.  I've always heard everyone say that children are a gift from God.  It's just about the only gift we try to prevent God from giving us, all the while justifying it.

You said you thought it was up to God to lead each of us into truth through prayer and seeking.  I agree, but question why that same Holy Spirit leads to different truths.  One claims they've prayed and sought the H.S. on the contraception issue and believe God is telling them it isn't a sin.  Another prays and seeks guidance on the same issue and believes God is telling them contraception is a sin.  Hmmm.  Same Holy Spirit----different truths.  God help us!!! :-*

Grace and peace,
cris

Cris, I will take some time with this, but at the moment I see much more reasoning going into these discussions than scripture.   Sound Doctrine is usually well outlined by multiple passages all agreeing with each other.   I find some of the doctrine being constructed to look good on the surface, but lacking much scriptural depth, and that is what has bothered me from the beginning of this discussion.   The lack of scripture to support either view.

I would encourage others who may have more study time on the topic to assist us here as well.    

For now let me chew of what we have and do some study before I comment further.   Fair enough?

Grace and Peace!

Hi everyone, newbie here!

Did you know that the Pill, Norplant and depo-provera can be abortifacient some of the time?  One of their functions is to prevent ovulation, but another is to alter the lining of the uterus to prevent the implating of the new life, should conception take place.  ESPECIALLY the low-dose and progestin only pills (mini-pill).  The IUD is abortifacient 100% of the time.

If you believe that life begins at conception/fertilization, then the argument should be clear for these types of contraception.

Besides, the pill can be detrimental to a woman's health, including links to cervical, skin, and breast cancer.

Something to consider.

Blessings,
Monique

I did not realize that. Thanks for the information, and welcome to C.U.

Of course, fair enough!

cris

I'm always perplexed as to how verses about marriage, the directive to Adam and Eve to "be fruitful and multiply", the story of Onan, and the idea that children are blessings has come to be interpreted to mean that we each need to have as many children as we can.

I think that children most certainly are blessings from God, and I agree that we need to trust God in our lives -- but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't try to understand and act responsibly within the world He has created. If I were to break my arm, I wouldn't sit in my living room and pray for God to heal it without heading to the emergency room to have it set. I don't think going to a doctor is a sin -- does God not want us to help ourselves and learn how we can do that in the world He has created? Your bone will grow itself back together (quite a miracle!) if you set the ends together. As long as we give credit to God, rather than the doctors who are simply working within the biological framework God created, I think we're probably ok.

Similarly, God's biology requires that a new life will be formed if an egg is penetrated by a sperm. If God didn't want us to be able to have some say in the creation of our own children, why wouldn't He just make women pregnant as He saw fit, whenever He determined that a man and his wife should have a child? Rather, he wisely gave us some measure of control over the decision to bring a new life into the world by requiring a willful act to put sperm and egg together. That's not to say that the minute we want children we can have them without God's help -- not all attempts at pregnancy are successful. That end of things is, indeed, in God's hands.

I absolutely see children as blessings. Which is why I would like to have them in a number that I feel I can responsibly parent, and at a time when I am able to provide for them. I'm not saying my life has to be perfect before I start a family, but since I have some control over the matter I would like to be emotionally ready and not have so many kids that it will compromise the time that each of them deserves. I want to be able to shower my little blessings with all the love and attention they deserve, and I think I'll be able to do that better with 3 kids than I would with 13. But that's just me. Maybe you'd rather have 13 kids. Go for it! Thankfully, God in his infinite wisdom has provided that the egg/sperm requisite for pregnancy involves a deliberate act on the part of those involved, so you can to some degree have an influence on the timing and frequency of your pregnancies.

The Bible says be fruitful and multiply. This directive was made to Adam and Eve in Genesis 1:28 when they were the only two people on Earth. Doesn't it seem reasonable that what God was saying there was along the lines of: God loves human beings and wants them to procreate in order to that the species of His creation may flourish and enjoy this great big Earth He created for them to live in? I don't think He meant that each and every one of us needs to do our part to personally try to "fill" the Earth by popping out as many kids as we possibly can until the Earth can't hold any more. Why in the world would we read it that way?

As a species, I think we've filled the Earth pretty well. Human beings now inhabit every continent on the planet, with cities, towns, villages, tribes and clans setting up camp in every climate imaginable.

Even the Catholic church, which is against contraception, but advocates "Natural Family Planning" because it holds that a couple should practice "responsible parenthood", and that leaving pregnancies "to chance" when, for example, a couple is struggling to provide for existing children is not an act of faith, but rather an improper "test" of God. Here's a good article for a summary of the Catholic viewpoint: http://www.christopherwest.com/article4.asp.

As for the story of Onan, he was expressly instructed to have sex his brother's wife for the purpose of having children for his brother. Gen 38:8. He purposefully decided that he didn't want to get his sister-in-law pregnant because he didn't want to give kids to his brother. So he acted in a way so as to make people think he was doing what he was told, while clandestinely thwarting the directive. Gen 38:9. God punished him for acting the way he did. Gen 38:10. It seems clear to me that Onan was being punished for blatent disobedience exercised in the spirit of prideful selfishness.  Don't you think God would have been similarly displeased if Onan had, for example, deliberately engaged in Natural Family Planning in order to deliberately try to avoid impregnating his sister-in-law? (I don't think NFP is any different from contraception ... )

I say, have your children and love them with all your heart and soul because they are indeed blessings. If you want to have sex for the sole purpose of having children and want to have as many as come to you by these means, that's great (and brave!) If you want two or three kids, that's great too. God bless.

Nothing in the book to say birth control and wearing protection to avoid diseases is sin. I been brought up with this man made doctrine or tradition that's only from the devil. That's why you really need to know your leadership your under  otherwise your not fullfilling 1 Thessalonians 5:12 which is sin as much as lieing, stealing or adultery is. If they intentional in error with the book then obeying Galations 1:8-9 is a must. If they unintentional in error with the book then 2 Corinthians 11:2-3 cuts them some slack to follow their ministry and support them.

For anyone interested:


No Abortions - No Exceptions (http://www.backlife.org/birthcontrol/20001119_birth_control_an_idea_whose_time_never_comes.phtml)

I agree with the person above who said that birth control pills of all types are abortion.  Abortion was specifically stated in the Didache(also known as the teaching of the twelve apostles, ca.  100-150 A.D.) as being a sin.  So, birth control and abortion have been considered immoral by all of Christianity since the apostles until 1930 when at the Anglican conference it was decided that Protestants had a new and better interpretation that allowed  for contraception.  Both Birth control and abortion are very old, not modern at all, and when abortion was mentioned in ancient texts many times it was used in the context of being a birth control agent and both were condemned.  Barrier methods such as condoms are a less grave offense in that they do not ever destroy life but are truly "contraceptive".   However, they do fall into the realm of the Onan story from Genesis.  I will note in opposition to the poster above that Onan was not acting on an order given from God but from his father.  The real question here should not be if contraception is wrong, but why after 1930 only the Protestants, and not the rest of Christendom, decided that they would reverse their position on birth control.  Was all of Christianity wrong until 1930?   Oh, and if anything, it has become easier to raise and afford children now, especially here in the richest society ever.

titleist and others,

One thread has already been locked dealing with multiple wives. I have just deleted several posts by titleist trying again to switch the topic of this thread into multiple wives.

THIS IS A WARNING TITLEIST. -  NO!!

This is a Christian Family Forum with children as young as 8. This topic will not be discussed here - PERIOD! If you are determined to discuss multiple wives, go to a wife swapping forum or a Mormon forum. Don't try this again here.

Moderator

Oh, man!  I missed it!  I bet those were pretty funny posts.

Brothers and Sisters,

I should have been more clear in my last post. There is a reference in this thread to marriage and divorce, and marriage again. The attempted hijack of this thread was to multiple wives at the same time.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 11:33  O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

"The bible says nothing about contraception"....BECAUSE THERE WAS NONE!!!!
My main problem with contraception is that it does not stop the egg from being fertalized by sperm (conception...which is LIFE)  all it does is stop the fertilized egg from implanting in the womb.  Might as well be taking the abortion pill in my opinion.     I do agree that the Lord gives you what you can handle and that you have to trust Him on that.  Do I always do that..no.  Does anyone always fully trust him?  I had a tubal done, and I regret it to this day, but we had 3 children which WE felt was enough for our family, and our son has a bleeding disorder called Hemophilia that runs in my family and we didnt want to risk having another child with the genetic disorder...as its very expensive for medical treatment and hard to get a hemophiliac insured.  But I do wish I had just stopped, put my faith in GOD on it...if I had more children then God wanted me to, if they had hemophilia...well God will help me to handle it.  
I firmly believe that, these days, contraception is pretty much telling unmarried people to go ahead and have sex and not worry about pregnancy being a consequence...seems like a tool of the devil to me.  
Dawn