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What is the Church? The Church as you know is suppose to be the body of Christ. So why are there so many churches in one local area? Are we one body or many bodies? Which is mightier: 10 soldiers or 1000?


1 Corinthians 1

12 What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas”; still another, “I follow Christ.”

13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul?


This is the same thing when we say we belong to _______(fill in) Church. When we say 'I belong to this church' or 'I'm a baptist, catholic etc.' There is no such thing as a baptist church, methodist, lutheran, presbytarian, pentacostal, catholic, orthodox...Church. There is only one Church and this is it's name...

1 Corinthians 1:2

To the CHURCH OF GOD in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy, TOGETHER with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ - their Lord and ours:

Church of God. Not Church of _________(man's doctrine). The only division and seperation among the Body of believers is physical location. It is the Church of God in Texas, Church of God in California, Church of God in Ohio, Church of God in Oklahoma, Church of God in Florida. We are all the Church of God. The only difference is your locality.

And it says "To those sanctified in Christ Jesus and CALLED TO BE HOLY." Now take note of this Word!
"TOGETHER WITH" Together with who? With  "ALL THOSE" With all those where? All those "EVERYWHERE" TOGETHER...WITH...ALL THOSE...EVERYWHERE...with those who call on the Lord.

2 Timothy 2:22
Flee the evil desires of youth, and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, along with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

Jesus prayed for this!

John 17:21
that all of them may be ONE, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

John 17:23
I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete UNITY to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

Hey... you aren't talking about the denomination called Church of God, now are you?   ;D

Amen Felix - the term "Body of Christ" is singular. We who know Him as Jesus Christ, God and the original Embodyment of the Spirit should be united in Him.

I feel, however, that we are much closer to that reality than some may realize.  Other than a few fringe groups on the left or right edges of Christianity, we are one body under Christ.  The differences in our scriptural interpretations and our worship preferences are the factors that drive us into a specific building full of like-minded individuals. We have individual learning patterns and methods of praise.  But when we put these differences aside - (which is actually very easy for a Christian and done without even realizing it) - in the most important areas we are united. Although I choose to attend services in a specific building with specific friends - I don't care what it's called; Baptist, Methodist, Praise Chapel - it's just a building we use to glorify Him.  I would think most folks (Christians) think the same...

I thought about it a while and have more to add to my last post:
I am of the opinion that different “denominations” actually do quite well in unifying as one body.  A group of people centered on Christ cannot be wrong.  I had my Christian upbringing in a town in the American Bible Belt – a church on every corner.  But when we got together as a town – say at a high school football game – and had invocation, all 10,000 people were praying to the same God in a unified manner.  I’ve been to Billy Graham crusades where 20 or 30 thousand people – all of varying “denominations” were one in Christ.  My point is that just because we attend a building with a sign identifying us with a certain group of Christ-centered people does not, should not, cannot or will not alienate us from other groups of Christ-centered individuals.  As long as someone can say “Jesus is God” and “I believe He is who He says He is” then that someone is my brother or sister in the Body of Christ and it’s only Jesus who can judge beyond that.  

Be Blessed!
JN

Hey Brother,

I'm not finished with "The Church" I still have a lot more to add and I'm sorta having a hard time. There is still a really big problem. I am far from finish. I hope to get to that soon. If it is God's will that it be done however.  

What you have said seems right but there is a big problem underneath it all. Just for thoughts consider this:

I grew up in a town like yours. A church on every corner. Ask yourself these questions honestly...

Why are there so many churches in one local area?
You are a member of one church...would it be okay to move from church to church every week however?
Would the congregation at your church object?
Would you object to a member of your church doing that?


What you speak of Judgenot is a universal aspect of the one Body of Christ. It is apparent that all believers around the world are of one body and it is obviously not a problem for believers in Christ to come together under one roof (such as a crusade). But this is not what I am talking about. It is the local aspect. The local aspect is where things actually take place. This is practicality.

When we talk about the universal Church that is nearly completely ideal. It is easy to say 'united'. However, when you get down to your church and the churches around you...there is no unity. Maybe for you Judgenot there is... however, I cannot deny what God revealed to me. In our walk we are walking in discord. And to walk is to do something pratically. To do something practically that is something we must do with our locality.

In the military, 10 men marching across a make-shift bridge is no problem. They're marching right left right left. However take 1000 or maybe just 100 men and have them march in one accord. Left right left right across that bridge. You know what? They cant because it could bring down that bridge. So they're commanded to simply walk across. A six string guitar sounds nice when the strings are tuned to one accord. However a twelve string guitar sounds fuller and better when that is tuned to one accord. On a nice sunny day the light from the sun does not burn the grass. However, take a magnifying glass and focus just a portion of that light and you could start a fire with that focuses light.

Do you think there is a need for churches to be within 50 yards of each other? You are only scattering the light and scattered light is not strong enough to burn holes through anything. But you bring that light together and focus it like with that magnifying glass...and you can set anything on fire. You bring together more strings and when strummed together they sound more beautiful and full. When you have not just 10 but 100 men marching in one accord over that bridge; steping with one foot in unison, the impact from each step is dangerous enough to bring that bridge down. So if we all walk in one accord we become a mighty force that will crush Satan! We become a dangerous warrior...that is the Church.

There is more that I was going to say regarding this issue. I'm sure that it would have made this clear. I really believe we should just take a look at what Zaddikimyah wrote. He wrote "Messiah's Last Petition for Unity" http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?board=22;action=display;threadid=7163 (http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?board=22;action=display;threadid=7163)

I think that explains what I was trying to say and was going to say. The day I was going to say this I looked at that post and lost my words. Maybe that was all God needed.

 As humans we all have different likes and dislikes. We all have different opinions of certain types of people - one person likes quiet people and feels more at ease among such people. Other folks enjoy extraverted people, and tend to gravitate toward such people. It's how God designed us - there is something for everybody.

Some people like Martin guitars, others prefer Gibson - they both play the same songs and sound great in a band right?

This is why some people feel at home in say, a Baptist church as opposed to Anglican, and vice versa. It may come down to the pastor - we all have a certain type of preaching which hits home for us personally. I don't think Jesus would condemn this - it's just the way he designed us.

Some people come to Jesus because they relate to His compassion and love, and that's enough for them to accept Jesus. Others begin their walk by coming to understand that evolution is a lie, and creation is far more "reasonable" and that's how they come to Jesus, everything else falls into place after that initial contact.

 At my church, which is Baptist (not Southern Baptist) we have other denominations come to our church once every month or two, then we go to another denomination once every couple of months. For the most part, a stranger would be very hard pressed to distinguish who belonged to which denomination, because we mingle with other Bible believing churches. The main thing is we all believe in Jesus. Jesus is God, His Bible is literally 100% true and infallible.

Where's the problem?


 Bronzesnake

Brother John,

I knew that this would be hard for some people to accept. I redirected this topic to what Zaddikimyah wrote "messiah's last petition for unity". There you will find more stuff.

But to answer your question directly...

First, I think you are exercising your reasoning to excuse these denominations and differences by going off of "As humans, we all have different likes and dislikes." It should not be based on these things.  It should not be music that brings certain people together and repels certain people away. It should not be some particular preaching style. The "church" that we know today is not so true anymore. I know the question in many of your heads is "Well, then what can be done? Felix, you keep saying these things but this is just the way things are!"

This is what the common church in this nation is...

You go to a building on Sunday. You have many burdens weighing down in your heart. But you go to church with your nice suit on. You put a smile on your face as you greet the brothers. You put on your be righteous, holy protocol. This is one big facade.

Many people go to church one day in the week. when they go in they activate their spiritual, righteous, holy protocol...after they get out they just go back to themselves.

If it is a small church, you go in and talk to your fellow brothers and sisters making sure you dont use any bad words, gossip, and you maintain a happy countenance. fake

If it is a big church, you go in and look for familiar faces again doing the same things...looking kind, nice and happy. fake

The outside of the cup is clean but what about the inside?

Then after this, there is worship. People are concerned about sounding good or hoping they play something THEY enjoy. Their hearts not praising the Lord Almighty. Not worship at all...

Then people take their seats and listen to the sermon. In which some people try to sit through it pretending to be interested; some try to find intellectual satisfication or a good word; and some may take in life quietly as they watch and listen.

Then they go home...until next week. The ones that gained anything were the ones who took in life. However, it was something personal not shared with the members (maybe just family). This revelation of life may stay with them for a little bit..but by the end of the week it is gone and they are back to their old miserable selves. Even if they write down whatever they got they can never maintain this revelation thoughtout the week.

What did Jesus mean in that prayer, "Give us today our daily bread"? Are we only eating once a week?


Children are dragged to church. Looking forward not to another day of learning of Christ...but games, fun, and snacks.

Teenagers look for their cliques. Staying in their closed circles, rejecting strangers, unbelievers, or people that will ruin the image of their clique. Trying to be cool or maintain some image.

Adults look for some good old socializing where they can brag about something.

In the end, church is just some activity. Where very few if any are worshiping in Spirit and in truthfulness. Are people gathering together in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ? Are people pursuing righteousness, faith, love and peace together with those who call on the name of the Lord out of a pure heart? The problem with the 'church' is that this is never done.

1 Corinthians 14:26
What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church.

Is your church being strengthened?

Whew! My brother you seem depressed.

 That is not the experience of the great majority of God loving church goers my friend. We all have Jesus, that is the whole point. It doesn't matter what church, as long as it is a Bible believing, Christian Church.

I'll pray to Jesus that you gain an overpowering joy in your heart!  :D

Bronzesnake

So what is to be done?

Here is the first thing you should do.

PRAY

O Father,
I want to worship you in spirit and in truth. I know nothing about you but I want to experience you right now as reality. I purify my heart. Reveal yourself to me!


Now this is something I strongly urge you to do!!!!

Schedule a home meeting. Call some brothers and invite them over to your home one night. Prepare a dinner. Whatever you can provide for. At least two brothers plus your family. Or have some potluck and invite more people over.

Before eating, have everyone call on the name of the Lord. Proclaim together in unison "Jesus Christ is Lord!" Do that three times together. Saying "Lord Jesus!" with your mouth. The second time saying "Lord Jesus!" with your mouth and heart. The third time saying "Lord Jesus!" with your mouth, heart and spirit. As you are reading this do this right now.  :)

Then pray. Pray for anything. Such as "Lord Jesus, we turn away from everything in this world right now. We consecrate this time only to you. May we not leave this place the same; we want to be changed! We want to gain more of you!" But don't just have one person pray one prayer. Let there be many more prayers. Dont worry, there wont be disorder. Encourage brothers moved by their hearts to pray.

This is the most important part. After eating open hymnals, open the bible, and share things with each other. Be completely open to each other. The best way to start is probably with the bible. Just read some scripture together and have everyone share what they got from it. Share some revelation that God gave you during the week. Share your burdens. Ask questions. Sing hymns and songs. Get out musical instruments. Another good way to start is just to print out some bible study topics from this forum and go over that.

When leaving have another group prayer.

Coordinate a home meeting like this for each weekday. Each day being a different brothers' or sisters'. Whoever can and whoever is willing.  

Acts 2:46
And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart

Lord Jesus,
Strengthen your church right now! May nothing stand in the way. Unite us together. Make us function healthly.


Saints, this will make a big difference. If you are a believer and you haven't been baptized, you should do it soon.

Some references for some of the things said

Concerning fake worshippers...

1 Corinthians 1:21
For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him...

Matt 7:23
And then will I profess unto them, I never KNEW YOU: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Mark 7:6-7
Jesus said, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:

‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in VAIN; their teachings are but rules TAUGHT by men.'

Sadly, this Word speaks against many churches across this nation. God wants worshippers that worship Him in spirit and in Truth! It is these that God seeks.

John 4:23
Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks

John 4:24
God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.

How do you worship in spirit? The first thing you can do is call on the name of the Lord. By this you can exercise your spirit by proclaiming that Jesus Christ is Lord.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit

God is rich to all who call upon him.

Romans 10:12
For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

Thus...
Romans 10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Acts 2:21
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Not just eternal salvation but all things of this world. From all things of this world. These are the riches of Christ.


When you get together you should call on the name of the Lord.

Matthew 18:20
For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them

2 Timothy 2:22
Flee the evil desires of youth, and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, along with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

Matthew 5:8
Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

And when we see God we are changed.


So we understand that God does not want worshippers like those pharisees that talk about God but know nothing about Him. So let us now seek to worship God in spirit and in truth. There is only one way to worship God!

If you can get into those home meetings it will make a great difference

Is any denomination 100% right?   No doubt the world sees these differences and lumps em all into a bag a religious confusion, but those denominations that teach the saving power of Christ by Grace through faith are part of the body of Christ arent they?    I think its the ones that alter this very truth to be in serious error.   Not that all of them don't have errors in one form or another, but without the truth of salvation the rest is moot anyways.

Interesting topic though.

Grace and Peace!

Greetings Felix,
Cool!
Okay...
Because we are all different – we have different spiritual gifts and different spiritual needs.  We tend towards the worship where we are most comfortable as individuals.
Absolutely.  I've been known to attend early services at my church and attend 11 oclock services at another…
Absolutely not - that wouldn't be very 'Christian' of them.
Absolutely not - that wouldn't be very 'Christian' of me.
Sorry, partner – that statement is in direct conflict with its self.  Yes I’m looking at the universal aspect.  However you imply ‘universal’ does not encompass ‘local’.  That would mean your definition of ‘universal’ must be one other than found in “Webster’s”.
We’ll have to agree to disagree on this one.  But that’s okay!  That’s what different denominations do.   ;D
God will straighten our minor squabbles out when the time comes, but you know what?  Not a single Christian will say “I told you so!” because NONE of us are 100% correct in our interpretations.

The universal church you speak of WILL happen, Felix.  I can guarantee it!!!  (And like you, I look forward to the day...)  However it won't happen until the Lord is physically here to lead His church.  The univeral church that proceeds the one Jesus will lead is one that I don't want to be a part of - it will be lead by Anti-Christ.

Praise God and pass the ammunition!
JN

Judgenot, there is both a universal aspect and local aspect of the Church. That was just a way of describing things. This is evident in scriptures. In Revelations, 7 messages are given to the church. 1 message to each church in some locality: Sarids, Laodicea, Philadelphia... This is the local aspect. You say I speak of a universal church. That universal Church would be all believers from around the world. But this is not what I speak of...I speak of the local aspect...The church you locally go to; the people belonging to Christ -3 or more- that you gather with.

To answer my own questions...


-Why are there so many churches in one LOCAL area?

Local referes to a small geographic location. Such would be your town judgenot (and my hometown).

Because man cannot reconcile with each other due to their own reasonings and thinkings. Judgenot, your answer to this is because we are all different. Brothers and Sisters, this is your logic, but it is wrong.  :)

Is it differences that cause us to have many different churches? Let's look at the body. It is made of DIFFERENT parts! If each part was a leg it may be very mobile but do you think that body could find its way around without eyes? If each part was an eye it could see many things but can that body ever get anywhere? We were made different for a purpose!!! To function together!! We need to function together heathly.

For the other three questions...lets take a look at that

Judgenot, you said, "Absolutely not - that wouldn't be very 'Christian' of them. Look at what you said very very carefully. You said 'Christian' of them (me). This implies that there is something wrong with that in the first place. Like it is not 'Christian' of me to get mad at my brother when he sins against me. You see...why would going to other churches be hurtful to the congregation in the first place? Brothers and Sisters, I know you know what I am talking about.


Brother, there is a big problem with this statement. I am not clear what we are "agreeing to disagreeing on." Is it about the local church walking in disunity? That's ok. I know that some of you believe that the local church is walking in one accord. This is a hard thing to do because we have fell into man's standard but through prayer it can be done.

However what is most important from this in which we cannot disagree is the admonition that the church needs strengthening.

1 Corinthians 14:26
What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church.

This can be easily done in the HOME MEETINGS I talked about earlier here in 'What can be done'. It is from house to house.

Acts 8:3
But Saul began to destroy THE CHURCH, going from HOUSE TO HOUSE, he dragged off men and women and put them in prison.

Lord Jesus, Cause us to meet together under your name. Lord, bring us together. Provide the means and the circumstance for this to be done. May we not become lazy and forsake this. Operate in us to do this!

Hey bro,

Lol, I'm not depressed at all. Hmm..maybe I should be, but God has lead me to a church -local body of believers- that worship in spirit and in truth. So im doing fine...but I am convinced that local churches in this nation and even all over the world are suffering! This we must be concerned about just as Christ would be.

This is expected but let it not be! For with Israel, many fell from God when they made that golden calf. Yet there were always a select few that were true to God and pure in heart...like Noah. It is true that there are many but only a few are chosen. But if we have any chance of crushing Satan we all need to be walking in one accord. This this starts with your local churches.



Baptism
As an individual, another thing that must be done is baptism. If you have not been baptized you need to do it so you may be seperated from the world and be free to pursue God. Be baptized into the body, Father, Son and Holy Ghost. You need to be inducted into the body of Christ! In the bible the latest anyone was baptized after believing was no more than 3 days! Satan will try at all means to stop you but do this; be baptized. It is not some membership into a particular church; you need to be saved from the world. Some things Satan may throw at you will be family members and friends who object. And even yourself! You may be a shy person or you dont want people to see you wet. Deny these things and follow through with it.

Your answer: no.

My answer: No...Of course not, because they are from the reasonings of man, not God.

Your answer: yes

My answer: Yes...Of course, so is that body functioning in one accord? If it is not then surely it needs to be! As our body parts must all work together to walk so must the local churches. Yet if not 10 but 1000 men are walking in one accord that is even mightier. We need to all be walking in ONE ACCORD NOT IN DISCORD. This is the meat of the issue. To be united as one, not scattered. We would be so much more powerful!


Dont forget worshipping God in spirit and in truth.

Hmmm.  The body consists of many different parts, all having different functions however.   Yes the toes the fingers the feet the arms the eyes etc.   If each of these are being used for the better good of the body of Christ, then they would be functioning in one accord.   The arm cannot do the job of the feet carrying the body from place to place, just as the foot cannot do the job of the arm which reaches out letting the hand do its job.   Sounds kind of silly I guess, but it does add to the mental image me thinks.   :D

I am reminded of ....

Mar 9:38  And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
Mar 9:39  But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.
Mar 9:40  For he that is not against us is on our part.
Mar 9:41  For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward.


Was this individual operating in one accord with Jesus group?  According to Jesus he was.   Now I realize the body was still being built at this point, but I think it still applies here.   Any denomination not against Christ in on His part.   At least thats how I see it.

Grace and Peace!

Bro Felix 102

What an excellent thread and what excellent discussions. I believe you are pursuing God’s best and His fullness. You have echoed my own longings in nearly all that you have said.

After 35 years as a Christian I am assured that unity will not be brought about except as thirsty ones come and drink. Neither can unity be spoken of in a way that will convince but for a few. Church oneness is an issue of life...The Life. Men with their theologies and preferences have found many ways to toss aside troubling scriptures. I have noticed in many of the responses to your post, a conspicuous lack of scripture and an abundance of excuse making and opinions. It’s because the verses you bring out are uncomfortable and irrefutable. People have devised many little files into which they hurriedly stuff certain passages….some of the favorite files are labeled  “That was their culture, this is now”, or “That’s just Paul’s way of  saying….” Or, one of my favorites, “ in the Greek it actually means…”

 I could list dozens of scriptures right now that are so compelling, if met head on, yet they are by and large whistled right past. It’s like we have carry on luggage that stays with us at all times and then there’s the stuff we just check through to pick up later when we “get there”.

A couple of examples of these “compelling but what do you do with it” verses:

Matt 18:3
And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. (KJV)

Ask any number of Christians about this verse and you’ll get as many different answers. For mercy’s sake! Our entering the kingdom is at stake in this verse! We should labor in prayer over such a serious pronouncement.

Or how about:

2 Cor 3:18
18. But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. (KJV)

The Spirit of The Lord does this while we set in an “audience” listening to Christian coated motivational speeches? Like watching T.V. at Jiffy Lube while our car gets serviced?

You quoted 1 Cor 14:26

26.How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying. (KJV)

This is clearly how the church is to meet (the way I read it). We do meet this way in our home.
Ask 100 pastors to begin pursuing this kind of meeting and you will get 100 negations, all very authoritatively explained of course.

Finally:

Luke 9:49-50
49. And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.
50. And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.
(KJV)

 I find an inference in: “he that is not against us is for us”, that he also is distinct from “us” hmmm.

God bless you in your seeking Felix and us all.


Song 1:7-8
 HER (us):  7. Tell me, O thou whom my soul loveth, where thou feedest, where thou makest thy flock to rest at noon: for why should I be as one that turneth aside by the flocks of thy companions?
HIM (Christ):  8. If thou know not, O thou fairest among women, go thy way forth by the footsteps of the flock, and feed thy kids beside the shepherds' tents.
(KJV)

Agape

Bairn

So are we saying that Church should be held in homes instead of a large building?   Not that anythings wrong with home church....I'm just not following you now.

I'm lost  ???

Grace and Peace!

Thanks Bairn.

May God continue to fill you with life and may you constantly be strengthened into your inner man by the power of the Holy Spirit!


2nd Timothy

The word Church you are using means the 'Sunday Church Service'. I am saying that we not only have a large meetings on Sundays...but we have many more meetings throughout the entire week. Just where 2 or 3 meet.

For instance this is how it is done where I live. On mondays I meet with 2 brothers and we do some type of life study. We pray and call on the name of our Lord Jesus. We discuss some problems, revelations, and the life study.

On tuesdays another brother comes over and we have breakfast and we do the same things yet we study something different. Later that night I go to a home meeting.

On wednesday I meet with a larger group of bros and sisters and we go over one chapter in a book. This is our bible study of the week.

On thursday I meet with two groups of brothers in the morning. Later that night if I have time I go to another home meeting.

On friday I meet with some brothers in the morning and I go to a home meeting later that night. All these home meetings are different homes...and there are multiple home meetings each weekday since one home cannot hold all the bros and sisters.

On saturday there is a big meeting in a public building. A brother shares a message or sermon. Then there are testimonies afterwards from many brothers and sisters...and whatever much time we have left. Then we meet again at different homes for dessert and games.

On sunday we would have the "Church Sunday service" But that is basically the same as on saturday where all the brothers and sisters meet. Later that day we have the lord's table where we break the bread.

The number of people in meetings will range from 2 to well over a two hundred on saturday and sunday...maybe more (there are bros or sisters I have never met still!) Bible studies are maybe 10 pple. Home meetings can have 10 to 20 people.

You see even on the weekdays, we are having "Church". Just 2 or 3 brothers meet and we call on the name of the Lord. And Jesus is there in our midst.

As you can see this is not hard to coordinate even with a very large church. And if your church is not large it should be even easier.

Felix,

You'd make a great monastic  ;)

I admire your commitment to a constant focusing of our lives on God through fellowship. I just don't know how possible it is for those of us with young families and all the commitments that come with it.

I though I was using the word much the way you were  ???.     I believe there are quite a few believers who do this sort of thing on a regular basis from many different churches/denominations.   I just don't understand the negative comments on why some pastors would frown on such, or about Church gatherings as the term has been used.    Mine certainly does not as I suspect most wouldn't.   If one does, then it might be time to find a new church I should think.

 :-\   Still not following you guys and what your trying to say?

Grace and Peace!

I just don't understand the negative comments on why some pastors would frown on such, or about Church gatherings as the term has been used.


 :-\   Still not following you guys and what your trying to say?

Grace and Peace!

Tim, Grace and Peace to you also

If I am included in "you guys" and if you're refering to me as having made the negative comments about pastors, I was not suggesting that pastors in general would discourage all the members sharing in a home meeting. I was suggesting that pastors would not embrace the open sharing of the members in the general church meetings. Modern church meetings have evolved into a "stage and audience" affair. If you read and re-read 1cor.:14 it seems clear that Paul took for granted that a church meeting was a matter of all sharing ("all may prophesy"). The same spirit works and lives in us all. Seminary counts for very little. I'm sure when a Paul or a Barnabus came to town those early christians were more than eager to sit and listen, but the general on going meetings seemed to be a mutual sharing of psalms, doctrines, tounges, revelations, etc.. These meetings, I'm sure, were to include the ministry of teachers and the keeping of order by the leading brothers, but were never to be the kind of audience and celebrity situation we now have. I was saying in my reply to Felix that to ask a pastor to change the format of their meetings to include the free and open sharing of all the members, to place equal value on the spiritual insights and contributions of all in attendence and not just the bible school graduate, would meet with instant disapproval.

There is a richness and a completeness to be had in a meeting where each one contributes. If we are in say, Eph:4 and I hear a teacher for 15 or twenty minutes and then hear 20 or so brothers and sisters bring their experiences and insights regarding the matter at hand... oh my! what a full and satisfying handling of ephesians 4 ! If someone stands and goes too long or off the mark for that meeting, then one in leadership can gently set things on track. This is my experience, it's what I read in the Word.

Most pastors at one time or another have spoken about "body Ministry" or some similar term, and then go on to urge the congregation to pray and see if God would have them vacuum the sanctuary, work in the nursery, work on the landscaping,etc.. The sharing of spiritual matters however is reserved for the so-called clergy.


Eph 4:4-6
4. There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5. One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6. One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.(KJV)

Eph 4:11-12
11. And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12. For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
(KJV)

Eph 4:16
16. From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love. (KJV)

Agape
Bairn

I see, that makes better sense...thanks for clarifying.   Allow me to chew on that a bit before I comment further.

Grace and Peace!

monastic??? Dont know what u mean by that.

Thanks for your admiration but it is not for me; this is what God wants for His children...and this is what Satan doesnt want. That's why we should be strong for this.

I see your problem. I think its ok. You know, the body does not just contribute to spiritual needs but also physical. Brothers and Sisters united as one body dont just have gift and skills in different areas for spiritual needs but physical as well. I am sure if you pray about it and meet with the brothers and sisters...your children will become godly children, you will be able to meet with the body, and you will have extra time to do things for yourself. Possibly more time.

When we're in the body each member provides for the other member's need. There may be a sister or bro who can take care of your kids, or maybe your kids can go with you to wherever you are meeting the body. In any case...your children will be edified and you will be edified. And if you sacrifice time for the Lord, He will bless you with more. What you sow you will reap...and by the grace and love of God may your harvest be abundant.

hey bro,

That verse doesnt apply to that. Just like they're not going to stop that man from using the name of Jesus...I am not going to stop another denomination from preaching the gospel of Christ. However they may not be walking in one accord.

The definition of accord is to be consistent or in harmony.

In contrast the definition of discord is
a : lack of agreement or harmony (as between persons, things, or ideas) b : active quarreling or conflict resulting from discord among persons or factions


So what am I saying against the protestant and catholic churches? I am not here to point out what is wrong or what is right. These are things of reasonings and doctrines. These have nothing to do with God. Not trying to contend for right and wrong doctrine. Instead, contending for unity. The churches are not walking in one accord. There is division among them.

You may or may not believe this. If we want to get anywhere in both cases -whether you believe or not- you should pray for the desire of God and His will. Forsake what you know in your head, give these things to God and have faith that you will receive what you ask for in prayer. Ask whether these things are true, ask whether they are God's desire, and tell God that HIs will be done.

Felix,

Great thread Brother!  You have an excellent zeal for God and His Word as well as your brothers and sisters in Him.  Keep it up!

But I must disagree in part.  The reason we have differing denominations is differing doctrinal opinions.  I understand that we are to be of "like mind" but understand, Paul was speaking of being likeminded in Christ, His Gospel of salvation, and His purpose for having us here.  The believers in his day disagreed over certain scriptural "mysteries."  Paul even coined that term!  Why?  Because we "know in part, and we prophesy in part."  We aren't all "perfect."  We don't have all the understanding.  We want it.  We want each of us to have it and to share it together and with others.  But in wanting this, we miss the point.

You seem to be going through exactly what I went through over the past 10 years of my Christian walk.  I went to Bible College, served in my church, read my Bible, prayed, witnessed, didn't smoke, drink or chew or go with girls that do.  Yet through it all I kept feeling that something was missing.  And ya know what?  There was!  What was missing?  The right question is, "Who was missing?"

We get so caught up in how people aren't doing things the way we are.  Ya know what felix my brother?  That's exactly what you're doing.  You're even teaching us to follow what you do as a solution to this problem.  People aren't seeing it your way (case in point).  Some are and are helping out.  Some will take what you suggest and run with it to their benefit.  Others won't.  We begin to measure our spiritual stature by our spiritual output, rather than God's holy standard.  Then, we measure others, not by God's standard, but by ours.  And through it all, we set our sights on self, not on Him.  The problem?  We all do it.  The solution?  STOP IT!!![/u][/i]   ;D

The "Who" I found missing was the very God I was serving.  When I figured that out, I stopped seeing so much of the disunity, and started seeing believers that needed strengthening.  I stopped seeing doctrinal perfection, and saw my need to learn from God about Himself.  I stopped seeing "I'm right and you're wrong!" and started seeing room for both to grow in their knowledge of our infinite God.  I stopped seeing Baptists, Presbyterians and what not, and began seeing "Jesus Christ and Him crucified" like the Baptists, and Methodists, and Presbyterians that claim Him by faith in His written word.  I stopped seeing my work in the body of Christ and began seeing God's working through my obedience within His body, His offspring, His assembly.  His work.  Not mine.  For me?  To see things this way any longer casts a shadow on God's success at performing the work that He alone can do.

Wonderful thoughts.  Wonderful zeal brother.  Just watch that you don't start pointing fingers when you should be reaching out a helping hand.   :)

"There is one body and one Spirit--just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call-- one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. But grace was given to each one of us according to the measure of Christ's gift." - Ephesians 4:4-7

 :)

The Lord has given His requirements for unity, the way, the truth, the life  for strength in this unity. It seems to be man that won't abide them.

Yep.
What Ollie said.  I wish I'd said that.  :)
We're the problem.
Of course, as Christians we're supposed know that.  :)

"If it makes you feel guilty then don't do it."
JN

Couldn't have said it better myself, so I won't 8).  Will just add that if you asked pastors why not, they'd probably give a variety of answers but all would probably boil down to, "I wouldn't be in control".  If forced to be honest, some might even have to say, "I wouldn't be the star".

The way the church in general Christianity is run today, a very small body of folk run everything, then complain because they don't have any "helpers" in the nursery, etc.  

Personally speaking, first pray about it and then if the answer seems to be to have home meetings anyway, invite a few to your home, make it available for, say, a Bible study, and let everyone have a say in the discussion.  It's your home, you have the authority to quiet any disagreement or overly enthusiastic proponents of one or the other pet doctrines.  There is no law that says in order to head a ministry of whatever size, you must have been ordained or otherwise recognized as a Christian "leader".  

If your pastor objects, invite him to sit in, but don't let him take over.  And don't think you must or you're not "under authority".   I know pastors like to throw that around, as well as some other Christians who basically may just be the type that doesn't like to "make waves".

It seems the church in general could use a little shaking up, maybe you are one who could continue the biblical model.  And be advised that as far as the type of church felix102 is describing, there are many others that have as many if not more fellowship type of gatherings, small and large.  

It is not impossible, regardless of your home situation, to make time for fellowship.  It is just something that isn't planned for much and so seems inconvenient, and especially would to those who have busied themselves with multiple jobs, cars, bills, etc etc etc.   I have been part of such gatherings and had them at my own home as well, and I was a single mom raising two children, going to school and working a full-time and a part-time job.   It wasn't easy, but it was enjoyable, and I learned a very great deal at the same time.

peh quote.


 First of all, when Paul was preaching, most every Jew was well schooled in the scriptures, which made it reasonable for that type of meeting to take place. If you read Luke 4:16-21 you can get an idea of what was going on in the synagogue at that time. It wasn't the kind of free for all, which you think it was. There was a "minister" the minister handed Jesus (a Rabbi) the book of the prophet Esaias to read from. When Jesus was done reading, He closed the book, gave it back and sat down. This is exactly what happens in many Churches today.

 There has to be a trained pastor in charge in order to "teach"
If you want to contribute, then go to a Bible study. You can't expect a Church to function with a room full of uninformed, untrained "ministers".

 You make interesting comments peh, such as "all would probably boil down to, "I wouldn't be in control".  If forced to be honest, some might even have to say, "I wouldn't be the star". These types of comments are very disturbing to me. It shows a general disdain for Church authority and Pastoral knowledge and leadership.

 It's interesting to note your following remarks...

"The way the church in general Christianity is run today, a very small body of folk run everything, then complain because they don't have any "helpers" in the nursery, etc"

 Here again, you show a total disrespect for Church authority, but in your next statement, you don't mind putting yourself in the position of psudo-church authority.

 Personally speaking, first pray about it and then if the answer seems to be to have home meetings anyway, invite a few to your home, make it available for, say, a Bible study, and let everyone have a say in the discussion.  It's your home, you have the authority to quiet any disagreement or overly enthusiastic proponents of one or the other pet doctrines.

Your next remark really sums it all up...

 There is no law that says in order to head a ministry of whatever size, you must have been ordained or otherwise recognized as a Christian "leader".

 In other words, you don't think a fully trained and qualified pastor should be in the position of a Church leader, rather, an unqualified, untrained, self taught lay pastor can do a far superior job!  ??? :D


 Yours are not the word or sentiments of a humble Christian person my friend.

Whoa! Bronze man! Bad day?

Bronze wrote:
 
“It wasn't the kind of free for all, which you think it was. There was a "minister" the minister handed Jesus (a Rabbi) the book of the prophet Esaias to read from. When Jesus was done reading, He closed the book, gave it back and sat down. This is exactly what happens in many Churches today.”


Jesus conducted Himself according to the practices of the synagogues when He was there. And you apparently are unaware that, then and now, it is the right and privilege of every Jewish male both to read and comment upon the scriptures in the meetings, beginning at 12 or 13 years old.

Bronze wrote:

"First of all, when Paul was preaching, most every Jew was well schooled in the scriptures, which made it reasonable for that type of meeting to take place"

First of all, Paul was the apostle to the gentiles. He preached rarely to Jews. His teachings on the conducting of meetings overwhelmingly describe psalms, doctrines, tongues, revelations, prophesying, being shared by all in attendance. Here is a little key to consider:

1 Cor 14:30-31
30. If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.
31. For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
(KJV)

Paul is talking to unschooled (though Paul suerly taught them much) Greek gentiles… “If anything be revealed”.   What you are missing is that the Holy Spirit was active and vital in these meetings. It is all about the building up of one another “by that which every joint supplieth” I think I can speak for peh, when I say I have not the least disdain for leadership, or Church government or “ordained” teachers. Look what we all gained by The Lord ordaining the un-schooled fishermen and Galileans who wrote a good part of our New Testament. If you have sat in a church for a year or more and are not “schooled” in the scriptures and things of God, why are you still there?

This is the amazing statement:

Bronze wrote:

“There has to be a trained pastor in charge in order to "teach"
If you want to contribute, then go to a Bible study. You can't expect a Church to function with a room full of uninformed, untrained "ministers

Again, what constitutes them uninformed and untrained?  Bad teachers?

Where in the Bible are “Church meeting” and ”Bible study” made distinct?

What I do have disdain for is the clergy-laity system, The clergy class.

If you do an extensive study of the word nicolaitan you will see what it is, about nicolaitans, that the Lord says He hates. The often taught rubbish about the nicolaitans is that they were an isolated, off the wall cult started by Nicholas (of acts fame). A great many scholars agree that “nicolaitanism” is just what the name implies: “nico” conquerer “laitan” the people ie. The laity...Conquerers of the laity (often applied to the Catholic priesthood but, think about it)


1 Tim 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; (KJV)


I spent years in professional entertainment, I recognize the dynamics of entertainment in our westernized church culture…the stage, the audience, the celebrity and the performance.
I quote from my earlier post:

There is a richness and a completeness to be had in a meeting where each one contributes. If we are in say, Eph:4 and I hear a teacher for 15 or twenty minutes and then hear 20 or so brothers and sisters bring their experiences and insights regarding the matter at hand... oh my! what a full and satisfying handling of ephesians 4 ! If someone stands and goes too long or off the mark for that meeting, then one in leadership can gently set things on track. This is my experience, it's what I read in the Word.

I am not negating leadership. I am questioning the towers we have built for them in the spiritual house.  I am condemning the silencing of the lively stones, the Holy Priesthood.


1 Pet 2:5
Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. (KJV)



Bairn

What constitutes an ordained minister? One that is ordained by men or God? One that has attended a college, seminary or "schooled" in the scriptures by a local church.

I have met many an excellant pastor that had absolutely no formal training preach the very word of God. Yet I have met those that held a masters degree in Theology that were totally lost and did not even believe in Salvation through Jesus Christ.

Next I must say that there is a difference between church services and a Bible study group. However there should be at least one person in the group that is very knowledgeable in the word of God lest they all be led astray. I am not saying that it must be a pastor just one that is  knowledgeable in the word. A good pastor knows that he is not "able to do it all" and must rely on others to help in completing God's work just as Paul had many helpers.

However I find it quite an item of interest to see a person that made such comments about authority on another thread to say what he has said here about all pastors. It seems to be quite a contradiction.

Bronzesnake, what you speak of and support is the work of the Nicolaitians...of which God hates. People do not need to go to school to learn the things of God. This is taught by the Holy Spirit. Whenever we gather together we each have some portion to share. We speak forth what we have learned from the Spirit and receive life from others who speak.

1 Cor 14:26
How is it then, brethren? Whenever you come together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.

Scripture clearly tells us that this must be done. But it is only being done through one man. This is not a healthly functioning body.

Many people still rely on the mind. A scribe can know the bible better than anyone but can know the least of anyone concerning the things of God...Just like the Pharisees!!

People do not believe this "free for all" -as John coined- will not work. They do not believe it because they still worship God without the spirit.
1 Corinthians 2:14
The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Where two or three gather in the Lord's name, there the Lord will be in our midst. It is Lord Jesus Himself who is building the church up as we gather together and speak. If we are still in our minds, your conviction Bronzesnake, will be true. It will be unorganized and "incompetant" people will share stupid things. But we are not lead by our own minds, we are lead by the spirit. That is how we will all drink from the same spirit and worship God in spirit and truthfulness.


This is greatly affecting this nation. There are not many people who truly know and worship God. We need to wake up!! You have a name that you are living, but you are truly dead (rev 3:1)! This speaks of churches all over this nation! This nation is not blessed that there is a church on every corner...not if all of them are dead churches!


The True Church
http://www.injesus.com/Groups/ViewMessage.cfm?MessageId=0B006UH5&GroupID=3A006QBI&UCD=xyf (http://www.injesus.com/Groups/ViewMessage.cfm?MessageId=0B006UH5&GroupID=3A006QBI&UCD=xyf)

Bairn,

I think that you are trying to compare grapes with watermelons with Bronzesnake. Untrained and uninformed is the key, not whether the teacher is a pastor or not. Bronzesnake used those terms. I don't teach nuclear physics because I am untrained and uninformed on the subject.

Now, back to the thread topic. I don't go to church to listen to untrained and uninformed teachers. There's the key that has already been mentioned by Bronzesnake. Ten minutes of Christian experience and study does NOT make for a teacher. In fact, it would be gross error to put such a person before a congregation as a teacher. On the other side of the coin, there are many Christians without titles, degrees, or positions who are quite capable of standing before a congregation as a teacher. Now we are back to the keys already mentioned: untrained and uninformed. Any pastor who fails to exercise some degree of diligence about placing teachers before the congregation has no business being a pastor.

Love In Christ,
Tom

John 14:1-3  Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

PR wrote:  


However I find it quite an item of interest to see a person that made such comments about authority on another thread to say what he has said here about all pastors. It seems to be quite a contradiction.

I assume it is me to whom you refer? I don't recall accentuating all in any comments about pastors, If I did I was wrong to do so. I don't recall the comments about authority off hand either.

I do know that the Bible teaches clearly the placing of leadership in the church and that pastors, teachers, evangelists, etc. are all legitimate functions in the body.
my concern is that we have misunderstood these funtions to the point of allowing "professional" pastors, teachers etc. to become a class unto themselves. I regret that if, in my sounding off, I may have seemed to judge the hearts of such men.

I must reiterate my inability to see a biblical distinction between bible study and church meetings.

1 Cor 14:26
How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying. (KJV)

Bairn

Bairn,


Not at all. I have found your posts for the most part to be quite refreshing. My comments were not directed at you nor about you.



I must agree to this to a certain extent in that a Bible study is still a gathering of those worshiping God and wanting to learn more about Him. In either case I think that you would agree that a person that is knowledgeable in the word of God should be guiding either group.

Brother Felix,

WRONG! Bronzesnake is suggesting that teachers should have some knowledge before they are allowed to teach before a congregation. This is simple - common sense. He's not talking about someone giving a testimony.

I would certainly hope you aren't advocating that 2-minute microwave Christians be immediately placed in the pulpit as teachers over a congregation. ARE YOU?

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 119:105  Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

PR wrote:

In either case I think that you would agree that a person that is knowledgeable in the word of God should be guiding either group.

Amen PR and thankyou.

1 Tim 3:6
Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. (KJV)

Beps wrote:

Ten minutes of Christian experience and study does NOT make for a teacher.

I agree wholeheartedly. However…

If a new brother or a sister has been to one meeting only, and where, let’s say, a teacher in leadership has taught worship, from Eph. 5:19

Eph 5:19
Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord; (KJV)

Let’s further suppose this new believer has a marvelous experience making melody in their heart sometime before the next meeting.
I’m not saying this one should now stand and teach, I’m saying he or she now has a supply for the body of Christ. We all need to hear this precious word, wrought in this precious saint by the same Spirit that dwelleth in us all. It is a supply of life for the body. I"m talking about something far beyond the tired old token "testimony time" done occasionally, here and there...if time allows sort of thing.

15 or twenty minutes of sound, experienced teaching about Eph.5:19  and then an hour or so of sweet testimonies about Eph.5:19 and..Hallelujah! the saints are feeding together on Christ and His word. This is a living meeting, a building up by that which every joint supplieth.

My 9 year old son spoke up in a home meeting the other day (only the second time he has) and said: "Christ in us is kinda like springtime, the old dead stuff fell off and the new green stuff is all over everything" Seminary level? better. We all saw a precious work of The Spirit and tasted the glory of God at work in the heart of a tender young son of The Most High.


Concerning teaching, Beps, please touch on this scripture, if you would:


1 Cor 14:31
For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. (KJV)


And again I must add that if a teacher has had no more effect on some who have sat under him for any length of time, than just to create sponges to keep on setting and soaking it in then he has taught very little.
I’m angling here toward the scriptural precedent that seems clear, to me, in the above scripture.

Agape, Bairn

 Thanks for attempting to clear that up bep.


Bairn quote...

 
 Not at all, just pointing out the facts. :D

Bronze wrote:

“It wasn't the kind of free for all, which you think it was. There was a "minister" the minister handed Jesus (a Rabbi) the book of the prophet Esaias to read from. When Jesus was done reading, He closed the book, gave it back and sat down. This is exactly what happens in many Churches today.”

Bairn response...

 What gives you the impression that I don't know, and agree with this? I'm saying that the kind of Church "meeting" or "town hall" that some long for, is an unworkable situation, where any kind of twisted doctrine and cultist attitudes and ideas could freely flow from the uninformed and uneducated in the Word. Tell me something - would you rather fly on an airplane, which is designed by a trained aviation engineer, or one that was developed by a group of weekend model airplane enthusiasts? Now tell me which is more important - A trip on an airplane, or receiving the unadulterated Word of God by a trained, Bible believing pastor-minister-(add your own noun)

Bronze wrote:

"First of all, when Paul was preaching, most every Jew was well schooled in the scriptures, which made it reasonable for that type of meeting to take place"

Bairn response.

 That is true, but I was attempting to point out the atmosphere of the day, and the verse I posted gave a good description of how synagogues operated, and the comparison to our Churches today. I severely doubt that Paul took instruction from his students. Paul was a "pastor" he taught people about Jesus so that they would be saved. What could an uninformed student in one of Paul's sermons possibly teach him?



 So anyone who has a "revelation" pop into his/her head should be believed unconditionally? Of course not! This is why we have Bible studies. People are free in that environment to voice their opinions and ideas, and yes even their "revelations" at which point, if there is no trained "leader", the entire group will be confused as to what Truth is. Even in a Bible study, there mustbe a pastor/minister (not necessarily school educated ::)) who can separate truth from fallacy. Surely you concede this?

 

 That doesn't make sense my friend. You can speak for yourself in that regard, but peh has clearly displayed at least a general disdain toward Church authority, that much is unambiguous.



 That is a wee bit naïve my friend. Those "fishermen" didn't preach alone until they were filled with the Holy Spirit. I know what you're going to say - we're Christians, we are also filled by the Holy Spirit. That's true, but I think in the case of the disciples, God added some extra hot sauce. I don't know about you, but I have never been able to heal the lame - make the blind see  - raise the dead - etc. These twelve did all these things and more. God gave them a supernatural ability to know His Word in perfection. The once frightened men, went out and preached fearlessly unto death after the Holy Spirit went through their bodies.

 Do you really believe everyone who sits in a Church for a year are qualified to lead an entire congregation? There is a lot more to being a pastor than simply standing in front of a bunch of people on Sunday you know. Pastors deal with all kinds of personal tragedy and troubled relations of all kinds. This is not a "walk on job" by any means.

By the way - I'm not mad, or having a bad day! :D

Brother,

I doubt this is what you want to hear, but here's a little mini-study I just did to answer your question.
___________________________

In 1 Corinthians 14, the Apostle Paul is addressing disorder and confusion in the church and ways to avoid or manage disorder and confusion.

1 Corinthians 14:40  Let all things be done decently and in order.

1 Corinthians 14:40 is a fair summary of the chapter.

1 Corinthians 14:31  For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.

1 Corinthians 14:31 does not suggest that all in the service will speak, rather that those who do speak will do so one at a time and not interrupt each other. One must first define what it means to prophesy. To prophesy means to be uttering communications from God (i.e. Divinely Inspired by the Holy Spirit).

It is important to note that the Apostle Paul doesn't stop with the simple instructions that only one at a time may speak, but he adds:

1 Corinthians 14:32  And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
1 Corinthians 14:33  For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Many like to leave out Verses 32 and 33 when quoting 1 Corinthians 14:31. In fact, many like to take it completely out of context and forget the fact that the Apostle Paul is actually chewing them out for allowing disorder in their services. Paul addresses many issues of pride, envy of gifts, and indecency in a worship service. One must not neglect the fact that there were false prophets then and now, some wanting to speak for vanity or stature purposes, and other problems associated with wanting to be heard above all others. In short, this was a problem of indecency and disorder in a worship service, then and now.

Now, we are back to:

1 Corinthians 14:40  Let all things be done decently and in order.

In conclusion, don't forget:

1 Corinthians 14:32  And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
1 Corinthians 14:33  For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
________________________

Love In Christ,
Tom

I Timothy 4:6  If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.

I may not be right in saying that Bronzesnake is supporting the works of Nicolaitians. But I do believe this is happening all over this nation by the spirit of what Bronzesnake was talking about. I should say instead that "You may not know it, but I believe this is the work of the Nicolaitians."

What do you mean by the following?
2 minute microwave Christians? Not being sarcastic, dont know what you mean.



What is happening to the churches...

There are people going to schools to become ministers. This isnt a bad thing but see what happens because of this.

This whole process becomes binded by the world. With my lack of good vocabulary it means that...It is then no longer any different from going to school to become an engineer or doctor.

He becomes a pastor of a church. This is his job...what he went to school for. The objective becomes numbers in the pews not for Christ Himself. This is how the pastor makes his living. This is his life.

But then we come across scripture

1 Cor 14:26
How is it then, brethren? Whenever you come together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.

The pastor will not let this happen. Because this will threaten the function of the pastor. Because the pastor does not have a heart for God but for the things of this world. That is his livelyhood...the people in the church who provide money for the pastor. It is no different than choosing a job over taking the cross and following Christ.

If there is any chance of God's revival, these men must forsake all things and sacrifice all things for God. Pray for the men who are in this situation. This is big reason why the Church is dying.

felix102 said, "Where two or three gather in the Lord's name, there the Lord will be in our midst. It is Lord Jesus Himself who is building the church up as we gather together and speak. If we are still in our minds, your conviction Bronzesnake, will be true. It will be unorganized and "incompetant" people will share stupid things. But we are not lead by our own minds, we are lead by the spirit. That is how we will all drink from the same spirit and worship God in spirit and truthfulness."

How refreshing to hear the trust in the Spirit of God vouchsafed here.   Instead of how horrible it would be if an unlearned fisherman (oops, I meant church goer) should say something inaccurate, and that would lead another of the simple sheep astray.  

If we are Christian, by definition, we have the mind of Christ.  If that mind is to be used, it must be exercised by the one possessing it.   Yet the present system keeps the new born in their pews, silent and untested, afraid to speak, and because they are not being given opportunity to express what the Spirit is speaking to them, it stays within, effectively preventing anyone else from hearing it.  

No wonder so many young people stay so far from traditional churches.   Nothing to say, nothing to do but to sit silently and listen to someone "learned" speak what may have no  connection to what they do know as life.

In addition, the usual system is, as felix102 pointed out, part of the clergy vs laity system that has spawned authoritative and divisive hierarchy within the Body of Christ which was never meant to exist.   1 Cor 12:14 "For in fact the body is not one member but many"

Someone has said that Paul was a teacher and didn't have church members speaking in church when he was speaking.  Where that came from, I fail to find in Scripture.   But even if he was the main one speaking, he is the one that did speak the verses in 1 Cor concerning the psalms, hymns, etc that each one had and that Scripture has been posted already.  

I see that even then, in the face of those verses, there are still those who want to argue that Paul didn't really mean it, he was just telling them how they were behaving, not advocating the behavior.   And this in plain view of 1 Cor 12:4  "There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.", and the like.

As 'SOMEONE' has said, "But wisdom is justified by her children."    

 who was it that said... "The disciple is not above [his] master, nor the servant above his lord."  Oh ya, that was Jesus.

felix quote...

 
 So let me get this straight my young friend. You judge me to be a person who acts in a way, which God hates because I believe that a student must have a teacher, and that the student must listen in order to learn, and that the student doesn't teach the master - the master teaches the student?

 You need to pray to God for forgiveness my young friend, because you have levied against me a serious judgement - a false judgement, which was born out of anger, because you disagreed with me.

 How supposedly intelligent people can reason that the school should be run by the students is beyond simple logic. It is an indefensible position, a fool's overture.

 How supposedly learned Christians can proselytize that as soon as a person accepts Jesus - at that very moment, he/she becomes a Biblical scholar and a teacher, because at that moment the newbie is moved by the spirit, is childlike in it's entirety. Why do we even need Bibles? I mean, once we accept Jesus, the Holy Spirit will write His Word on our hearts right? You no doubt know the Bible by memory right? If someone asks you to quote chapter and verse without the aid of your computer or a Bible, you could do it all day long right? ::) Humble yourselves students. Your misguided assertions are proof positive that you are in dire need of instruction from a qualified pastor, because you haven't got a clue. :D

I’ve come across this “I know all the answers” attitude before, when I had my carpet installation business. One particular fellow sticks out. He had some experience installing when I hired him as a “helper” I tried to teach him, but he insisted on doing it his way, because he had been installing for “over a year” I honestly liked the young Turk, but he insisted on pretending to be a skilled installer because of his one years experience, he was convinced that he knew what he was doing – he didn’t. In the end, I had to fix too many of his screw ups, and I had to get rid of him. The kicker is, that I know I could have taught him to become a skilled installer, if he only had have listened to me.  :-\

 In your Church dream, you will need all the help you can get in order to decipher the Truth from the mad ramblings of the newbie Christian theologians. Good luck to you. ;)

 I'll cease in participating any further with such as these. One cannot reason with childlike logic such as this

Oh, by the way, I’m not mad and I have had a great day!  ;D

Bronzesnake,

We are on two separate trails here. I simply believe that “all may prophesy that all may learn and all be comforted”  not all may lead, all may teach, all may conduct. Willy nilly etc.

Bronze wrote:

What could an uninformed student in one of Paul's sermons possibly teach him?

 I’m going to stretch here and propose that Paul’s students were not uninformed. What would that say for Paul’s fervent laboring? I can imagine Paul receiving no greater comfort and blessing than to hear one of his “students” stand and share a rich testimony from the Life and teaching of The Holy spirit imparted through Paul’s ministry. The student could “teach” him afresh the glorious miracle of God’s transforming work in a once lost soul.


Bronze wrote:

I'm saying that the kind of Church "meeting" or "town hall" that some long for, is an unworkable situation, where any kind of twisted doctrine and cultist attitudes and ideas could freely flow from the uninformed and uneducated in the Word.

I have met this way for years. The situation is totally workable because the members are equal and valued and the shepherds, the leadership, stand watch while the flock feeds together. No twisted, cultist… what you said.
If the pasture gets short the shepherds know where to go next.

Bronze wrote:

Do you really believe everyone who sits in a Church for a year are qualified to lead an entire congregation?

No. I believe a believer indwelt by the Spirit of the living God is qualified to stand and release his portion in the meetings…decently and in order. I believe the body is built by “that which every joint supplieth”. I believe the “professional” clergy have, even if unintentionally, stopped the mouths of the saints, the saints of whom it is said:


Rev 12:11
And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. (KJV)
 


1 Cor 12:18-21
18. But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
19. And if they were all one member, where were the body?
20. But now are they many members, yet but one body.
21. And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
(KJV)

nor again the learned to the babe.

Bairn

Brother Felix,

If you have a pastor like the one you described, you have the wrong pastor and are probably in the wrong church.

You are quoting 1 Corinthians 14, but it doesn't appear that you have a clue what it means. Read the entire chapter again and you might understand why some knowledge and experience is necessary for a Bible teacher. Take a look at my post just before your post, and that should help you get a start.

I'm not suggesting that a Bible teacher must have a degree, a formal education in the Bible, or the need of any titles or positions. Some of the best sermons I've ever heard were given by people with no formal education at all. What I will say bluntly is very simple - a baby Christian is not a Bible teacher. I'm not saying anything bad at all about baby Christians.

I asked you above if you advocate putting a person who has been a Christian for 2 minutes behind the pulpit and giving him the responsibility of teaching a congregation of people. If you say "Yes", I see no reason to continue this discussion. As a perfect example of this discussion, you are incapable right now to teach 1 Corinthians 14:26. That's not saying anything bad. You simply need some study, work, experience, and a teacher with that portion of Scripture before you try to teach it yourself.

Please don't get the idea that I'm claiming to be any Bible expert, but I have been studying the Bible for over 50 years. There is some value to many years of diligent study, and there is also a necessity for learning and continued study. Thus, you also have an explanation about why there is some value for elders with lengthy study and experience. If you reject this Biblical principle and others that relate to pastors and teachers, you will probably be burdened with errors and misunderstanding a LONG time.

Love In Christ,
Tom

II Timothy 4:8  Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

For now, I will stop replying here for a little. I want people to have the chance to read all this before we go on and make this thing 5 pages. I would hope that everyone would read this entire thing and consider all the posts carefully. Pray over the verses presented here and if you do it with a pure heart turned only to the Lord, you will know what it means.



Bronzesnake and BEP, I will reply to your most recent post soon.

Bronzesnake

One more thing and I'm jumping this ship.
You have this battery of blue stars by your name, a big flashing logo and a formidable name “BRONZESNAKE”. I’ve noticed that when ones disagree with you, it always comes down to “just stating the facts” “immature” “childish logic” “naïve” “wishy washy” “wrong my friend” and so on. I only have one little tiny gold star, but outside the cyber-church here, I am a 52-year-old father of two. I grew up on a cattle ranch in Montana, I’ve been a Christian for 35 years (long time in the microwave). I am not childish nor do I lightly consider the Word or blithely arrive at what I call logic. Your attempts to quash by intimidation are ill spent... “my friend”.

Your recent statement about the servant not being greater than his master was pitifully misused.

Matt 10:24-25
24. The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.
25. It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?
(KJV)

Jesus was affirming to them (and us) that we will also suffer persecutions. He further illiterates His view of ‘masterhood’ in John 13:12-17


12. So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments, and was set down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you?
13. Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.
14. If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.
15. For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.
16. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.
17. If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do
(KJV)

Here is the definitive illustration of  the humility and care expected to operate in a “master” in the Kingdom of God

When you “state the facts”, as you call it about the absurdity of participatory church meetings you are sorely in error. The Plymouth Bretheren and The brethren assemblies (small “b” their choice) have been meeting in the way I have described for a couple of centuries. Their way of meeting grew directly out of the work and ministry of John Nelson Darby (laaaaaaaaats of blue stars). Many other groups meet this way and there is ample scriptural precedent for it whether your “facts” affirm it or not.

Anyway..lighten up…moderate but don’t castigate.

Bairn
 

Brother Bairn,

The subject you chose to debate is the capacity of a person to serve as a teacher or pastor in a church service. That capacity obviously involves study, training, experience, schooling, time and/or some combination of the above. Everyone involved in this discussion, with the exception of two, agrees that some type of experience or training is necessary for a teacher or pastor. This even includes you in several of your posts.

Bronzesnake being a moderator has nothing to do with this discussion. As noted, nearly everyone already agrees on this extremely basic subject. For whatever reason, it appears that you hand-picked a moderator to become involved with a heated exchange for him stating the basic facts. I must add that you have agreed with those basic facts, but now you change the topic. So, why did you choose a moderator instead of one of the others, all with the same opinion? Was it because he stated the facts more bluntly, even though you agree with the facts that he stated.

I'm also very curious why you would use the rebuke of the Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 14 to support the opposite of what the Apostle Paul was trying to achieve.

If this was a participatory meeting like the one you described, would you expect to be challenged or corrected? The subject is the capacity of a person to pastor or teach a congregation in a church service. Many have stated the same thing in various ways, including you, and now you are upset. Would you like to change the topic? There was also an attempt to condemn the same moderator for stating the facts and associate him with something that God hates. Again, I would ask if you would like to change the topic we are discussing. If not, you are angry with a brother who has done nothing but tell the truth and state the facts. Further, the moderator was told that God hates him for stating those facts.

If you want to remove pastors, teachers, leaders, and the experienced from the discussion, start another thread and do so. Regardless, this thread or a different one, don't tell a brother, moderator or not, that God hates him for telling the truth and stating facts.

Love In Christ,
Tom

2nd Timothy 3:16  All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Brother Felix,

If you want to remove pastors, teachers, leaders, and the experienced from the discussion, start another thread and do so. Regardless, this thread or a different one, don't tell a brother, moderator or not, that God hates him for telling the truth and stating facts.

Love In Christ,
Tom

John 14:1-3  Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Felix, I pray that you should take your own advice my young friend.

I believe that this says it all here:

Heb 5:12  For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
Heb 5:13  For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
Heb 5:14  But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Nicely done! :D

Be prepared to be launched upon! :D

Beps wrote:

Brother Bairn,

The subject you chose to debate is the capacity of a person to serve as a teacher or pastor in a church service.

I thought I was debating the capacity of anyone to do all the speaking and edifying in a meeting, the silence of the lambs if you will.

and again Beps wrote:

don't tell a brother, moderator or not, that God hates him for telling the truth and stating facts.

????????

Bairn

bep quote...

 Instant Message (Online)       
   Re:The Church
« Reply #38 on: May 16, 2005, 11:59:46 PM »    Reply with quote Modify message Remove message Split Topic
Quote:
Bairn Said:

Concerning teaching, Beps, please touch on this scripture, if you would:


1 Cor 14:31
For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. (KJV)

Brother,

I doubt this is what you want to hear, but here's a little mini-study I just did to answer your question.
___________________________

In 1 Corinthians 14, the Apostle Paul is addressing disorder and confusion in the church and ways to avoid or manage disorder and confusion.

1 Corinthians 14:40  Let all things be done decently and in order.

1 Corinthians 14:40 is a fair summary of the chapter.

1 Corinthians 14:31  For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.

1 Corinthians 14:31 does not suggest that all in the service will speak, rather that those who do speak will do so one at a time and not interrupt each other. One must first define what it means to prophesy. To prophesy means to be uttering communications from God (i.e. Divinely Inspired by the Holy Spirit).

It is important to note that the Apostle Paul doesn't stop with the simple instructions that only one at a time may speak, but he adds:

1 Corinthians 14:32  And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
1 Corinthians 14:33  For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Many like to leave out Verses 32 and 33 when quoting 1 Corinthians 14:31. In fact, many like to take it completely out of context and forget the fact that the Apostle Paul is actually chewing them out for allowing disorder in their services. Paul addresses many issues of pride, envy of gifts, and indecency in a worship service. One must not neglect the fact that there were false prophets then and now, some wanting to speak for vanity or stature purposes, and other problems associated with wanting to be heard above all others. In short, this was a problem of indecency and disorder in a worship service, then and now.

Now, we are back to:

1 Corinthians 14:40  Let all things be done decently and in order.

In conclusion, don't forget:

1 Corinthians 14:32  And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
1 Corinthians 14:33  For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
________________________

Love In Christ,
Tom
Isn't it funny how no response comes after a revealing post such as this one that Tom posted?

This really takes 1 Corinthians 14:3 and puts it in it's full perspective, but not a peep in response. Hmmmm.  :-\

 ;)

AND, Felix took it from there for you.

I hope you read this before you give up in disgust, bairn.. I give you a loud, emphatic and fully cognizant AMEN!   Moderators and their "friends" have the last word, and perhaps that is as it should be.   Nevertheless, I am with you, I'm outie.  

Y'all have a nice life sitting in your wrong church and under the wrong pastor (Before you beef up an answer to that, blackeyedpeas, look at your own words to felix102).

Just one set of last thoughts for you:  "For when for the time ye ought to be teachers"...how does a new born one get to that time?  Have you ever done anything well you didn't practice first?   Have you ever had a wrong thought that was corrected in a spirit of meekness (not in the "I know better than you everything" attitude on this forum?) and realized that you'd been on a wrong track, and been grateful for a change in direction?   Did you get there by sitting under one man who may or may not know how you're thinking cuz you never talk to the "star"?

peh,

Nobody here needs much of an answer, and nobody here claimed to be a "star", except maybe you. At this point, nobody knows enough to teach you anything, and you condemn anyone who tries. So, be your own teacher and be happy. I'll pray for you.

Sheesh you guys. I'm gone for a few weeks and the attacks have begun. am I going to have to start disciplining you guys. I don't know what the bickering back and forth is about, but it's got to stop somewhere. I don't know who started it, but ultimately God will finish it. I get the feeling there's been a bit of miscommunication and interpretation of a few things. I'm going to go print out the whole thread and see where the error may be then i'll get back to you all. Until then, cool all of your jets please...i don't want to see anyone's feelings hurt or anyone getting mad at another. That's what satan wants us to do...we must be mature Christians about this. I 'm sure you all understand where i'm coming from. God Bless

Joshua

Hello Jemidon my friend.

Don't get too worried my brother. This is the nature of debate.
It's very difficult to judge a persons temperament through type, so if it appears that some of us are angry, all I can do is speak for myself. I am not angry. I debate as effectively as I can, and that may come across as anger. At times I do get sarcastic, but not blue faced, mouth frothing angry.

 
Stunning logic!! :D Should a pilot take the controls on his very first day of training? Should he give his flight instructor tips on how to fly? ;D Think before you make such ludicrous comments my sister.

[quote author=peh link=board=3;threadid=7192;start=45#msg100647

I hope you read this before you give up in disgust, bairn.. I give you a loud, emphatic and fully cognizant AMEN!   Moderators and their "friends" have the last word, and perhaps that is as it should be.   Nevertheless, I am with you, I'm outie.  
Moderators, don't have the last word peh. We are answering to God, praying that we are doing right. The moderators job he peh, is to make sure the rules are followed. I'm sorry if you feel the rules can be stretched for you. The rules aren't stretched, for anyone. Us mods, are answerable to God, and Admin., who owns Christians Unite.

The only "outies" are those who make, themselves outies.

Resting in the Lords embrace.
Bob

Song of Solomon 2:6 His left hand is under my head, and his right hand doth embrace me.

A few points to consider...

2Ti 2:24  The Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged,
2Ti 2:25  with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,


Rom 12:18  If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men.


1Ti 3:2  An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,


Eph 4:2  with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love,
Eph 4:3  being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.


Col 3:12  So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience;
Col 3:13  bearing with one another, and forgiving each other, whoever has a complaint against anyone; just as the Lord forgave you, so also should you.
Col 3:14  Beyond all these things put on love, which is the perfect bond of unity.


Just some food for thought.   And go easy on the extra hot sauce.    :D


Grace and Peace!

 Nice work Tim.

 As I said before. I'm not angry in the least.
If I were to debate face to face with any other poster, my intent and emotion would be seen as compassionate, and not intemperate. It is very difficult to relay a point with vigour on a forum.

Right on Tim  :D

James 3:18   "And the seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace."

That's what it's all about.  Ben

Not wanting to steal credit for great wisdom, but I humbly submit it is Gods word thats right on.    :)   What a wonderful God we serve!    

BTW, those verses are not posted as rebutal to anyones posts, just think of it as a reminder from Gods word, and a concerned brother in earshot of the discussion.   I consider it a reminder to myself as well in other threads I have participated in recently.   ;)



Grace and Peace!

At the time of the reformation, The Catholic Church had evolved for 1500 years. By Luther’s day it had become so mutated as to bear no resemblance at all to the church begun at Pentecost. There is no reason to believe that in the 500 years since the reformation, the human propensities for organizing, traditionalizing institutionalizing and adulterating have somehow been eradicated. The periodic correction, called a revival, comes and brings wonderful new life to the people of God, and is then quickly analyzed and systematized into yet another denomination. Virtually all denominations have seen, at their inception, a “re-forming” work of the Holy Spirit. Mark my words…we are due for a major shift.

As I have been unwittingly drawn away in the flesh, to this futile debate, I have once again seen the amazing tenacity of theological preference and tradition and their power to supplant the living breathing Jesus in our Spirit, to whom we are told to “look away”.  

Bronze and Beps:

Theologians who’s acumen dwarfs ours to ludicrous extremes, have written volumes, some supporting yours, some mine and some other’s interpretations of 1Corinthians 12, 13 and 14. I applaud your energy and dedication to contend for the Word as you read it. My applause stops there, for I have embraced a reading of the same words with all my heart and with the support of honored theologians with whom you would apparently disagree. And so it will probably be among the children of God until we’re called for dinner.

Pastor Roger:

You have a great attitude and a wisdom that I appreciate. Your sharing of scripture and council always comes across with a Godliness that says you truly are a pastor (the biblical kind). I hope it doesn’t offend you for me to say, I find it an oddity that we use “pastor” as a title. It is a function of the body….or perhaps we should all preface our names with our functions.. I am layman Bairn,. kinda catchy :D

I am moving to and staying in the “testimonies” section of the forum.
Felix, peh and all, I hope to “see” you there.


John 17:3
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. (KJV)

Agape, Bairn

Layman Bairn,


Thank you but if that is true it is God's doing and not mine.

I take no offense. I have been called many things besides Pastor.  ;) As I have said before, I am but a man saved by grace. The important thing is the word of God.

Praise God for His wonderful mercies!

Looking forward to your testimonies.

 You know what?
We will all end up going to the Church/meeting (whatever you want to call it) that makes us feel most at home.

 I looked back at some of my comments, and I can see how some people might get their backs up against the wall. I will, however, continue to be straight to the point and blunt. I don't go in for candy coating much, but at the same time, I am not intentionally trying to anger anyone.

 I still contend that peh has an obvious disdain for the "traditional" Church system which multitudes take great joy and comfort in. I guess that's why I find it difficult to understand why a Christian would take such a negative stand like she did. Perhaps she had a horrible experience - who knows?

 I believe I was justified in defending myself against the slanderous comment that felix directed at me, and all because he disagrees with me. I will always respond when any poster gets so arrogant as to say that God hates me.

 I will reiterate - I am not angry. If this debate was a face-to-face event, I have no doubt that we would all walk away as friends. This is a forum - forums, by their nature, are places for people to debate. There would be no debate if we all agreed with each other...right?

 There is a line in the sand, and sometimes people cross it. I have, and when I feel like I've gone to far, I have apologized.
 Others have on occasion crossed the line towards me. When that happens I respond, although I try my best to only respond when it is warranted.

 Some folks have the mistaken idea that moderators shouldn't have their own opinions. Or that moderators should agree with everyone, or at least be neutral. That's not a fair position to put us in. We were posters here long before we were moderators.

 A moderators job is to enforce the ADMIN's rules - people are constantly attacking Christian sites, we find them, and get rid of them as best as we can. Some people post satanic principles, here again, we find them and they're gone. Some people post porn - they're gone. That's our job here. At the same time, we are posters just like everybody else. We are human just like everybody else. We make mistakes just like everybody else - at times, we even get upset, just like everybody else. Give us a break people! :D

Bairn. I know you think I directed certain comments toward you (childish). I didn’t, right or wrong, those remarks were directed at peh and felix, and in comparison to the comments directed at me, I was being nice.

 I would suggest that you continue to post wherever you want to, and don’t let a debate – even a somewhat heated one, force you to feel as though you must “hide” your opinions.
 I don’t know how long you’ve been participating on forums, but this is par for the course. Give yourself time to get accustomed to the different people here, including myself. Once you see what I’m really all about, you may even grow to tolerate me!  :D

Really? I thought these were photos of the mods?

Bronzesnake

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v311/randers/Bronzesnake.jpg)

Blackeyedpeas

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v311/randers/gorilla.jpg)

Dreamweaver

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v311/randers/neener.gif)



 :D :D :D :D


Guess who this is now ....


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v311/randers/copy_of_running007.gif)

Where did you find my picture?  ???

I though this was BRNZ....
(http://mountainshadows.dvusd.org/Summer_School/Animated%20gifs/Snake.gif)

This must be 2T.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v605/DreamWeaver000/dom-ani.gif)

Ha ha, I have your pic, here.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v605/DreamWeaver000/mouse1.gif)

Stop! You're killing me! ;D

 I haven't had this much fun since I went to the amusement park...



 The last time someone even came close to having this much fun, it turned out bad...



 

Pastor Roger,

 ;D   ;D  That's me, but they made me take my beanie-propeller cap and coke-bottle glasses off for my passport photo. Regardless - Handsome!! is insufficient.

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Here's the final irony in the continued assault against Bronzesnake in this thread, and that's why it is closed. It's from numerous sources, but do your own study. The Greek doesn't show properly and will appear as (??).
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Revelation 2:6  But235 this5124 thou hast,2192 that3754 thou hatest3404 the3588 deeds2041 of the3588 Nicolaitanes,3531 which3739 I also2504 hate.3404

G3531

?????a??t??
Nikolaï´te¯s, gen. Nikolaï´tou, masc. proper noun. An adherent of Nikolaos, or a Nicolaitan. An ancient sect whose deeds were expressly and strongly reprobate (Rev_2:6, Rev_2:15). Some have supposed that they were the followers of Nicolas (Act_6:5), one of the first deacons of the church, whom they regard as having apostatized from the true faith. For this view, however, there is no authority. Others regard the term "Nicolaitans" as a symbolic expression. Since Nicolaos means victor of the people and Balaam means devourer of the people, the two in symbolic unity signify religious seducers of the people. It is more probable that the Nicolaitans were identical with those who held the doctrine of Balaam, mentioned in Rev_2:14 (cf. 2Pe_2:15), so that likely the Nicolaitans practiced fornication and the eating of things sacrificed to idols while outwardly professing Christianity.

Revelation 2:6  But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate.
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They hate the deeds of the Nicolaitanes. Opinions are not agreed concerning this sect, but it is probable that the followers of a Nicolaus are meant who taught that Christian liberty meant license to commit sensual sins.
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Rev 2:6 - But thou hast this - Divine grace seeks whatever may help him that is fallen to recover his standing. That thou hatest the works of the Nicolaitans - Probably so called from Nicolas, one of the seven deacons, Act_6:5. Their doctrines and lives were equally corrupt. They allowed the most abominable lewdness and adulteries, as well as sacrificing to idols; all which they placed among things indifferent, and pleaded for as branches of Christian liberty.
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Rev 2:6 - But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans,.... Though these Christians had left their first love, yet they bore an hatred to the filthy and impure practices of some men, who were called "Nicolaitans"; who committed fornication, adultery, and all uncleanness, and had their wives in common, and also ate things offered to idols; who were so called, as some think (c), from Nicolas of Antioch, one of the seven deacons in Act_6:5; though as to Nicolas himself, it is said (d), that he lived with his own lawful married wife, and no other, and that his daughters continued virgins all their days, and his son incorrupt; and that these men, so called, only shrouded themselves under his name, and abused a saying or action of his, or both, to patronize their wicked deeds: he had used to advise pa?a???s?a? t? sa???, by which he meant a restraining of all carnal and unlawful lusts; but these men interpreted it of an indulgence in them, and so gave themselves up to all uncleanness; and whereas, he having a beautiful wife, and being charged with jealousy, in order to clear himself of it, he brought her forth, and gave free liberty to any person to marry her as would; which indiscreet action of his these men chose to understand as allowing of community of wives. Dr. Lightfoot conjectures, that these Nicolaitans were not called so from any man, but from the word ?????, "Nicolah", "let us eat", which they often used to encourage each other to eat things offered to idols. However this be, it is certain that there were such a set of men, whose deeds were hateful; but neither their principles nor their practices obtained much in this period of time, though they afterwards did; see Rev_2:15. Professors of the Christian religion in general abhorred such impure notions and deeds, as they were by Christ:

which also I hate; all sin is hateful to Christ, being contrary to his nature, to his will, and to his Gospel; and whatever is hateful to him should be to his people; and where grace is, sin will be hateful, both in themselves and others; and men's deeds may be hated when their persons are not; and hatred of sin is taken notice of by Christ, with a commendation,

(c) Vid. Irenaeum adv. Haeres, l. 1. c. 27. & Tertull. de Praescript. Haeret. c. 46, 47. (d) Clement. Alex. Strom. l. 3. p. 436. & Euseb, Hist. Eccl. l. 2. c. 29.
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