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   Growing up I attended different types of churches, Babtist, Holliness Babtist, Methodist...etc...  I never really thought much about talking in tounges then. Now grown, saved recently, I am learning alot of things old and new. This is a subject I don't understand. I even researched on the internet, but I didnt get an answer. Is speaking in tougnes a gift from God....and all have the gift to do it? Or is it not that at all. Please share your views with me.   ???

Not all have the gift of tongues friend. Paul makes that clear in Ephesiahs 4 i believe if i remember correctly. "And He gave some gifts to be apostles..." and so forth. So no not all have the gift to do it. I really don't see the need for it other than the self edification some of these denominations so eagerly want. There are mulitple tongues threads on here somewhere, though I don't really know off hand where they're at. But it's my view that tongues have ceased overall because it became something of a self edification issue. I can see how one could become prideful because they had such a gift and someone else didn't. Just a few thoughts. God Bless

Joshua

There is much said about the gift of tongues in 1st Corinthians chapters 12-14.  Read these chapters over.  This explains what might be going on in some churches today.  However, some people want this gift so badly, they become good at faking it.  They just babble and disrupt the worship service.  There should be someone to translate and only one person should be speaking at a time.  

Acts 2 tells about the Apostles receiving the gift and being able to speak with people hearing them in their own language.   This seems more useful to me.  I haven't heard about that happening in any church today.  Some people do indeed have a gift for learning to speak foreign languages and speak well in public.  

I don't see any reference to tongues in Ephesians 4.  

[quote author=Jemidon2004  I really don't see the need for it other than the self edification some of these denominations so eagerly want. There are mulitple tongues threads on here somewhere, though I don't really know off hand where they're at. But it's my view that tongues have ceased overall because it became something of a self edification issue.
I really agree w/ you on that on. I've just recently been baptized in the Holy Spirit and am still a beginner at it. Maybe self-edification is good, but we also need to remind ourselves (we mean those of us that speak in tongues) of what the bible says of speaking in tongues. you listed one part about not everyone having that gift. In Acts then the disciples got together in that one house and the Holy Spirit met them all there, something happened. In this case what became in "inside the house" thing also went outside the house, somewhere in there it talks about how everything and everyone was still or something, im not sure i'll have to look into it. I personally believe that tongues is accociated w/ healing (doesnt matter what kind of healing.) Its a very powerful gift and one that you really have to be careful because the enemy can twist it and as you us not even understanding what we are praying out in tongues could turn into words of blasphemy or something.

The tongues that is present today within the christian community is not of God.  The reason tongues was given was for the proclamation of the Gospel by the disicples who did not know the language of the nation they would be sharing with.

There is no scriptural proof for a personal prayer language.  When one is a believer in Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit indwells fully.  It is by God's Spirit that we are transformed and renewed by a refining process to do His will.  Speaking in tongues has nothing to do with this.  There is no power associated with tongues and this is not presented anywhere in Scripture.

Here is a link that gives the history of tongues in this country, where it originated from, and why it is not of God.

http://www.seekgod.ca/topicwaves.htm#tongues

imho, tongues is nothing more than a way for one to believe they are doing something to enhance their relationship with God.  It is an age old problem.  Rather than relying fully on God for His ability to grace us with insight and knowledge, man has fallen into pride and elevating his own "spirituality" to do something "for" God that He does not need and does not want.

shalom, nana

Maybe the tongues that we pray in today are nothing compared to the tongues prayed in back then. but we dont know that for 100% proof that back then God ONLY gave that gift to the apostals. Yes i believe that tongues comes out in many forms and patterns and all that. For instance I speak Russian and I can remember the very first time I heard someone speak in tongues, and this person doesnt speak Russian what so ever, but I heard (and Im telling you the truth) every single word that, that person prayed, I understood it very well 100% of it. I believe that, thats one way God STILL USES TO SPEAK THROUGH HIS CHILDREN therefore i cant say that tongues no longer exists to this very day. And yes I fully agree on the half that the enemy can use tongues for his own glory too, that you have to watch out for. But i can't say that tongues is all of the enemy. Dont forget these few verses in 1Corinthians below.

1 Corinthians 12:10

1 Corinthians 12:28

1 Corinthians 12:30

1 Corinthians 14:4

1 Corinthians 14:39

Glory,
there is some controversy about speaking in tongues. It occured at Pentecost in chapter 2 of Acts. These folks spoke in actual languages. Again in Acts 10:44 and Acts 19:6 These folks were all believers when they received this gift.
In the early church God was using signs to get the attention of certain people. Today we have the Bible.
You may want to read 1Cor.14 also 1Cor.12:28-30
Some churches teach that tongues are a required event to prove that a person is saved. That isn't true. We are saved by grace. Eph.2:8-9
The Bible also tells us that not all will speak in tongues.
The Holy Spirit gives His gifts as He determines. 1Cor.12:3
 Please read these scriptures. it will answer a few of your questions.

God bless you,
bluelake

nana,
The link that you gave does not give a statement of their faith. Do you know who they are?
The tongues spoken today are glossolia.
 I have never heard of anyone speaking a real language. The term 'prayer language' isn't found in scripture. At least I don't think they use that term. Do you know?

God bless,
bluelake

I’ve been browsing this and other threads regarding tongues for a few weeks…finally decided to put in my two cents. I really don’t entertain the fantasy that anything I say will persuade the opponents of tongue speaking to reconsider their stance. I cringe at the statements so many make with such assumed authority.

YES. shameful, fleshly, embarrassing displays and performances under the auspices of tongue speaking and manifestations of the Spirit abound. It would seem the enemy has worked overtime in this area to divert many away from some of God’s greatest gifts….the outpouring of the Holy Spirit and accompanying helps. I’m grieved over the embarassment brought on the community of believers by the goofy antics of "out-there charismania”.

Leonard Ravenhill once said: “it’s time we decide whether the Bible is absolute or obsolete”. If  we decide it’s obsolete then I understand how picking, choosing or twisting scriptures to build our prejudiced cases is to be expected. But, if we hold that the scriptures are absolute, God breathed, living, eternal truth, perhaps we should lay our opinions and suppositions aside and willingly receive. If we choose a middle ground, between absolute and obsolete, between literal interpretation and whimsical, we then step onto the broad way of theological knit-picking….the primary tool of the enemy to cause division on the Christian landscape for two thousand years.

I will touch on a few quotes from this thread. I am leveling no personal attacks on anyone; in fact these quotes represent a remarkably accurate cross-section of the standard fare from the “tongues bad” faction.  


1 Cor 14:15-19
15. What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
16. Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?
17. For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.

1 Cor 14:5
I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying. (KJV)

1 Cor 14:39-40
39. Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
40. Let all things be done decently and in order.
(KJV)



Many passages in 1Cor. are constantly used to support the idea that Paul is nullifying tongues and chastising the use of them. Paul is chastising the chaotic abuse of tongues and is teaching the way to conduct an orderly meeting, while yet affirming the value of tongues, i.e. (I would that ye all spake with tongues….)  (“forbid not to speak with tongues..”) That’s not my opinion, read it.

That Paul would rather they prophesy does not negate “I would that ye all spake with tongues….”. Shall we assume that the opponents of tongue speaking have rallied to what Paul “would rather”? and that prophesying is readily embraced in your meetings? I think not. Prophesying is another topic for yet another post. (if you’re reading, felix102, I know the value placed on all the saints prophesying where you meet). Everyone should do an intensive word study on “prophesy”.

MalkyEl wrote:
“There is no scriptural proof for a personal prayer language”

Bluelake wrote:
The term 'prayer language' isn't found in scripture. At least I don't think they use that term. Do you know?

True, The term “prayer language” is not used, but the reality of a personal prayer language is well documented. Again, the scripture… obsolete, absolute or twist to fit? You choose.

Paul makes an obvious reference to a personal prayer language. First he thanks God (he’s grateful for his tongue speaking). Paul could say to these Corinthians who were all about tongues, and over doing it to the extreme, “ I speak with tongues more than you all”! Then he says “yet in the Church…”.Paul spoke with tongues more than all these tongue fanatics, but he did it somewhere other than in the Church…Where? The market? Perhaps at tent makers conventions? Or…dare I say it…in personal prayer?. You tell me. The statements are clear: “ I speak with tongues more than you all”…. “yet in the Church…”

1 Cor 14:18-19. I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
19. Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
(KJV)

Jude 1:20
”But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

Shall we assume that Jude just means “praying”?, That whenever we pray it is “in the Holy Ghost”? Let’s not. Paul says: What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also” 1 Cor 14:15a. Sure does sound like more than one kind of praying.

1 Cor 14:27-28
27. If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
28. But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
(KJV)

 These verses concern tongue speaking. “to himself “ = private, personal, silently. “to God” = prayer….. Private, personal, prayer in tongues.

Jemidon wrote:
I really don't see the need for it [tongues] other than the self edification some of these denominations so eagerly want.

Jemidon uses “self edification” as though it means self-aggrandizement or some kind of selfish pursuit. Jude tells us:

20.”But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
21. Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.” Jude 1:20-21 (KJV)

The words “building up” are from the same Greek root from which we get “edify”. Edifying ourselves is encouraged, it is needful. Yet in the church our concern must be to edify others.
(actually, and I vent, our concern in this day and age is to sit and listen to one person attempt to do all the edifying….another discussion)

M. wrote:

“Acts 2 tells about the Apostles receiving the gift and being able to speak with people hearing them in their own language.  This seems more useful to me.  I haven't heard about that happening in any church today.”

Dear M.:  Read LiL Christian’s quote below. It was posted two posts away from yours. Now you’ve heard. There are thousands of similar testimonies and thousands of Christians who ignore them.

LiL Christian wrote:
For instance I speak Russian and I can remember the very first time I heard someone speak in tongues, and this person doesnt speak Russian what so ever, but I heard (and Im telling you the truth) every single word that, that person prayed, I understood it very well 100% of it.

Finally, (and I must be approaching more like three cents):

Bluelake wrote: In the early church God was using signs to get the attention of certain people. Today we have the Bible.

This is the classic argument of those who oppose tongues and supernatural manifestations of God. There are volumes written along this thought line. It comes from this passage:

1 Cor 13:8-13
8. Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
13. And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
(KJV)

The language and sentence structure is very plain with a little study. Verse eleven is an illustration of the point being made. Paul is not saying he became a man and has now put away childish things like tongues…remember?  “…I speak with tongues more than ye all”? He is saying that now we are as children and are confined to these means, like tongues, prophesies and so on. It is such a stretch to propose that “that which is perfect” refers to the Bible. That which is perfect is the “then face to face” in verse twelve. Paul illustrates in verse eleven, the contrast between "now" with it’s “in part” and "then" with it’s “face to face”. The Bible is perfect, yes, but hardly the topic of this verse. Ephesians 4:13 defines very well the “then”:

Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:  Eph 4:13  (KJV)

This is the “that which is perfect” which will come….it is when we are face to face with and have come “unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ”.

Diagram the sentences, read them as a paragraph. Studying the Bible is altogether a different undertaking than simply forcing scriptures, like puzzle pieces, to fit where they best support your view of reality. A friend and respected Bible scholar likes to borrow from his years in the info sciences when he says: ”If you torture the data long enough, they will say whatever you want them to”.

Agape

Bairn

 

Well said M,

I grew up in a Pentecostal church.  ( almost 60 years ago) Blessed to have been in a great Sunday school every week, Wednesday nite bible study, Sunday nite service, So very blessed to be a Pentecostal pastors kid,  :D.

I grew with tongues as a part of every day life in our home and church it was commonplace. I watched and learned i saw the lives folks led. I saw the "i speak in tongues so i am more spiritual than you" I saw wonderful (the term used at that time was) "God fearin” Christians live the Christian life. I have seen folks turn the tongues off and on like a switch. I was shocked to learn “ prayer language”  is not a scriptural term. Nor do I find “prayer language’ to be implied in scritpure. As for being new at it .... Isn't it a gift, there for not something learned?

As time went on I watched Daddy (the most Christ like man i ever knew) unconsciously ease back from the display of tongues as he became deeper in the Word. The more Christ like he grew, the less tongues.  As tongues was for the young church maybe tongues is needed for some young Christians.  I think of this then I know also there is not a  scriptural bases for “heavenly language”  Mind you I know

 1 Cor 13:1
1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.


I just don’t believe it applies as many of us wish it did.  After saying much in the negative this is the scripture I will end with..


1 Cor 14:39

39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
KJV  

Reba,
Thank you for your post. Is your church the UPCI? There is more than one Pentecostal type as you know. Their doctrine varies on certain issues.

I'm aware of some, that do fake tongues. They want so desparately to fit in. How sad. Also the spiritual pride exists.

God bless you,
bluelake

Assemblies of God

It is my impression that "speaking in tongues" as explained in Acts meant that the speakers could be understood in the languages of those listening to them.  In other words, the speakers were given the gift of speaking (or being understood) in these other languages.

This would seem to make "speaking in tongues" the ability or gift of having someone (say an English speaking American) speak in a foreign language (say, French) that would be understood by the French members of the audience; or perhaps the English speaker would be understood in French by the person in the audience, even though the speaker was speaking in English.

Either way, "speaking in tongues" apparently does not mean babbling some gibberish that bears no resemblance to any actual language ever spoken.....as we see in some of today's churches, or when watching some of today's the televangelists. From the Biblical point of view, it would seem to have been simply the gift of making oneself understood in a foreign language.

   Acts:2:3-11.....KJV

   3And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

   4And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

   5And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

   6Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

   7And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?

   8And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

   9Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,

   10Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,

   11Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

blue lake wrote:
nana,
The link that you gave does not give a statement of their faith. Do you know who they are?
The tongues spoken today are glossolia.
I have never heard of anyone speaking a real language. The term 'prayer language' isn't found in scripture. At least I don't think they use that term. Do you know?

nana:
If you scroll down on the home page, after the list of articles and see that she has given her statement of faith by subject and Biblical text for support.  Also, at the end of every article, as well as at the bottom of her home page is a link to click on for the salvation message, which is also her statement of faith.  I have also read her responses on some forums where she explains that her statements of faith can be found within the articles as she defends her position with Scripture, not supposition.

You are also correct, that today's "tongues" are glossolia, not the tongues that were given at Pentecost.  This is where the error lies.  Tongues was given for proclamation of the Gospel, not a personal prayer language.  This concept is not found within the NT.

When Paul stated that he spoke in tongues more than any others, was because he was appointed by God to bring the gospel to the gentiles or the nations.  That being the case, he would not know the language and by the gift of the Holy Spirit was given the ability to speak a language he did not know.

This would fall in line with the edification references particularly in 1 Cor 14.  Speaking the mystery would be known to God, not to the person speaking, as they did not know the language.

"Praying in the Spirit" is not evidenced within the scriptures quoted in this thread to "prove" it.  That is inserted into the meaning of the text.  Again, when Paul said he prayed with his mind and with the Spirit - it was praying how we choose, and then allowing the Spirit to pray through us as He wills - not in an unknown tongue, but in our known language, as guided in our thoughts by the Holy Spirit.  He might also be referring to Romans 8:26 where he states that the Spirit groans in words that cannot be uttered - in an intercessive capacity.

In reference to someone hearing tongues today in their native language and it being the gospel message, is indeed a true gift of the Spirit.  However; I have also heard that some, while speaking in tongues were blaspheming God in a foreign language and it was interpreted as that, by someone who knew the language they were speaking.

The problem with tongues today, is that they were taught.  Not received as a gift.  This happened from the time they were brought to this country.  This is why I believe the seekgod articles are critical to understanding this phenomenon which has snowballed out of control.  She does  extensive documented research that covers all angles of this "spirit".

tongues link:  http://www.seekgod.ca/topicwaves.htm#tongues

seekgod home page: http://www.seekgod.ca/index.htm

I wondered if someone could give me scripture reference that there is a "baptism in the Holy Spirit" for believers.  The references in each Gospel did not state baptism "in" the Holy Spirit, but rather "with" the Holy Spirit.

thanx and shalom, nana

Some believe speaking in tongues is not for today.  Some believe that it is.  If tongues isn't for today, what do the following verses mean?


Romans 8 verses 26 and 27

And in the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for (us) with groanings too deep for words; and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the (will) of God.

Anyone?  Comments?  Thoughts?

Greetings from College!!!

Well i got all settled in at college now...so I have some time to write out a response.

One thing I want to clarify right quick. My reference to Ephesians 4 was not in direct reference to the gift of tongues. Yet, indirect. It doesn't say anything specifically about tongues...however I should have clarified the specific verses I was using when is aid Ephesians 4. The reason I bring up Ephesians 4 is to show the diversities of the gifts, and the simple fact that not everyone has the same gifts that God has given out. Just like not everyone has the same natural talents that we have, not everyone will have the same gifts. If we did, we'd all be one body part and the rest of the body would suffer.

Now onto another part I want to clarify. Bairn quoted me on my statement about self edification. If you will note, the context I was using that in was self pride, which happens when we as men think we can do things apart from God. See it's not about me or you or anyone else, it's about God. We are merely His vessels when it comes to Ministry. That is what we should be. Hence why I said, that my view was that they have ceased for the most part was due to the fact that man has abused the gift and twisted it to make it their own. I have no such gift. I am strong enough in my walk to be aware of what gifts I have and what gifts I do not have. Through Bible study the Lord has shown me that tongues are simply not my gift. I did not come to this conclusion without Prayer and preparation. I came to it with God's guidance. I know that I do not have that gift and I rest in the comfort of k nowing that God is preparing me for something different than focusing on the gifts that He gives.

Thank you Blue lake for confirming what I was saying about the spiritual pride. It's self righteousness. Jude says to build ourselves up you are correct, however, we build ourselves up through study of God's Word and fellowship with His people, not by speaking in tongues. Did not God say that He resists the proud but gives more grace to the humble and will exalt the humble in James 4:6 and verse 10? Self edification in the usage I used was denoting pride, not spiritual edification that God gives to us when He is bringing us through trials or temptations. That is completely different from the usage I used a few posts ago. Tongues is not for the edification of the believer...since it is a gift of SERVICE to God...as all of the gifts are. Tongues are for the unbeliever, so that they may be communicated the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ in their own language should it be impossible for man himself within his own language to present the Gospel.

Malky, most will direct you back to Pentacost as to where the "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" is concerned. They will claim that one becomes saved and is THEN baptised with the Holy Spirit when they ask for it. That's simply not Scriptural. It happens at Salvation. This baptism is something that happens when you accept Christ as Lord and Savior. This is evidenced plainly in Ephesians 1:13. The Seal of the Holy Spirit is that baptism, whereby we know that we are saved through the Holy Spirit of God, not by the gifts that God gives us. Those who err on side of saying that tongues are a sign of salvation especially need prayer. Here is what I found a few minutes ago.

Quotation from Baker's Dictionary of Theology

Yet another spiritual gift is mentioned by Paul. The Spirit gives 'kinds of tongues' (1 Cor 12:10, 28). The nature of this gift is explained in 1 Cor 14. (a) The tongues in which the person spoke was unintelligible, and therefore unedifying to the Christian assembly (vss. 2-4); (b) The tongue (Glossa) was not a foreign language (phone, vss. 10-12); (c) The tongue-speaker addressed himself to God to whom he probably offered prayer and praise (vss. 14-17); (d) The tongue edified the speaker (vs. 4); (e) The tongue-speaker lost control of intellectual faculties. (vss 14-15), the tongue being probably a disjointed, highly pitched, ecstatic series of ejaculations, similar to the tongues spoken in times of spiritual awakening experienced intermittently by the Church.

           Obviously, then, the gift of interpretation of tongues (1 Cor 12:10, 30) was a necessary corollary to speaking in tongues, as was the "discerning of spirits" to the prophet's speaking by revelation. The tongue-speaker might also exercise the gift of interpreting tongues (1 Cor. 14:13), by usually others exercised it (vss. 26-28;12:10); though Paul's advice in 1 Cor 14:13 is interesting. This would imply that giving meaning to unmeaningful ecstatic ejaculations as an art critic interprets a play, a symphony, or a cnvas to the uninitiated; though the tongue-interpeter did not depend on natural knowledge (14:13).

      In instructing Christians on the exercise of these gifts Paul is concerned to stress their practical nature. The Spirit bestows his charismata for the edification of the CHURCH, the formation of Christian character, and the service of the community. The reception of a spiritual gift, therefore, brought serious responsibility, since it was essentially an opportunity for self-giving in sacrificial service for others.

Just thought i'd add that in to clarify what I am trying to say. It is 12:39 AM my time and it's time for me to go to bed, so i'll give you my comments on Romans 8:26-27. God Bless

Joshua

I think this is an error my friend. For the Word plainly says that whoever speaks in an unknown tongue edifies himself, (1 Cor. 14:4).

The bible also says that he who prophsies edifies the church.

The bible also says love edifies, but knowledge puffs up, (1 Cor. 8:1).

So we can see that there are all kinds of ways to edify both oneself, and others.

So to make the statement that speaking in tongues does not edify oneself is unbelief in the Word of God.

This is the mistake here: If your measure of light does not permit you to believe or understand speaking in tongues, then so be it. I don't have a problem with folks whose faith is not there yet. But to say that the Word of God is not true is not correct.

Why not just stay silent on the issue? Perhaps in the future God will lead you to that point where tongues will be acceptable to you. I know myself that more and more is revealed to me as I continue in not just the Word of God, but more importantly in the LOVE of God.

So if you don't understand what you see in the Word, don't dispute. This is truly counter-productive. Rather, continue to walk in the love of God, and you will continue to edify.


Num 6:24  The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:
Num 6:25  The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:
Num 6:26  The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

Actually, tongues is the first evidence when one is baptized with the Holy Spirit. Read Acts and look up all the references to the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Here's some excerpts:

Act 2:4  And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

The episode of Cornelius - note that the gift is the Holy Ghost, not tongues. Note that verse 46 is the evidence to Peter that the Gentiles received the baptism of the Spirit.

Act 10:45  And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 10:46  For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.

This one reveals that there is a separate baptism of the Holy Spirit, apart from water baptism.

Act 19:5  When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 19:6  And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.


Now for the gift of tongues.

This is found in 1 Cor. chapter 12.

1Co 12:7  But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
1Co 12:8  For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:9  To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:10  To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
1Co 12:11  But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

These are the 9 gifts or manifestations of the Holy Spirit. These are special gifts bestowed upon believers for the edification of the body of Christ. They are NOT for the individual through whom the gift is manifesting. Rather, that peson is the vessel that the Holy Spirit is using at that particular moment. And note, it is the Holy Spirit who manifest as He wills, not as the vessel wills.

But the vessel is still very important to the Holy Spirit because He cannot or will not manifest His gifts without a yielding vessel. So the vessel will have to BELIEVE before he can be used by the Spirit to manifest the gifts through Him.

One last note: It's not so much as we, as vessels are being USED by the Holy Spirit. No, it's more appropriate to say that we are working together with the Holy Spirit to achieve His goals.

Hope this helps to explain things a bit better for you. There's lots more to dig into on this subject, so get to it! LOL!!

Do I understand you correctly to be saying if a person does not speak in tongues that they have not been baptised with the Holy Spirit?

Yes. Tongues is the evidence that someone is baptized in the Holy Spirit. But that does NOT mean that a born again believer does not have the Holy Spirit residing in them. When one is born again, they receive the Holy Spirit - He comes and lives inside us.

The baptism with "fire", however, is a separate and unique experience, with tongues the evidence of the event.

You completely overlooked the reason why I said what i did. If man seeks to build himself up by HIMSELF, he will be knocked down a few notches. I in no way said the Word was not true. You my friend are putting words into my mouth. Actually, when I made my statement I was making it from experience. Re-read what i've written, i clarified in my last post why I said that. It is due to man's PRIDE. How is it a seperate experience? From my understanding of the Word and specifically the context of Baptism, when one accepts Jesus Christ and is born again, they are SEALED with the Holy Spirit. Is Not baptism a sealing? I've been baptised with fire...it happened when i was born again. However TONGUES are not my gift. It's not due to a lack of Christian maturity or even a lack of being baptised by fire, it is due to the simple fact that i do not have those gifts. God did not impart to me the gift of tongues and contrary to mainstream thinking, NOT ALL THE GIFTS ARE AVAILABLE TO EVERYONE. Each one is given a gift that God deems necessary and He equips them to do HIS service, not our own. Which, again, is why i said, "If everyone had the same gift the Body would be crippled. There would be one ministry instead of different parts of the Body. This is a discussion forum so i'm free to place any input I wish and I have, and have defended my position more than once in more than one thread. Please do not presume that I am not at that place. I am not where I would like to be, neither is anyone in this board or anywhere in the world. We'll never be to the point in our walks that we desire so dearly to be, but I will say this: God has given me enough desire to study His Word and I thirst for it dearly. So i'm learning every day...my faith is not in question here. The discussion of the Gifts are...don't turn it into something else please. I pray that this finds you in high spirits and everything I say has been in a cool tone. I am in no way angry or distressed about what has been written, but I will step up and clarify when it is needed. This is one such time. Consider this a friendly note. God Bless

Joshua

What are the scriptures that tell us 'tongues is the evidence of the baptism with fire'?

Amen Jemidon!

We are told that we receive the gift of the Holy Ghost when we accept Christ as our Saviour.

Act 2:38  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

This verse is not talking of baptism of the Holy Ghost. Baptism for the remission of sins was the baptism of water.

Mar 1:4  John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

The following verses clearly state that we will not all have the same gifts and why this is so.

Heb 2:4  God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

Rom 12:5  So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
Rom 12:6  Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;
Rom 12:7  Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;
Rom 12:8  Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.

Acts 8:15-19

15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:

16(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,

19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.
KJV

Sorry Jem, but you must explain these statements you made:


It clearly states in the Bible that a believer who speaks in tongues, edifies himself. The Spirit of the living God wrote that, not me.

I think you are taking "the gift" tongues out of context.

Lets look at some versions of the appropriate text:

1Co 12:10  to another, the performing of miracles, to another, prophecy, to another, distinguishing between spirits, to another, different kinds of languages, to another, interpretation of languages. (Holman)

1Co 12:10  To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: (KJV)

10 To another the working of miracles, to another prophetic insight (the gift of interpreting the divine will and purpose); to another the ability to discern and distinguish between [the utterances of true] spirits [and false ones], to another various kinds of [unknown] tongues, to another the ability to interpret [such] tongues. (Amp)

So you see, the "gift" of tongues, (and interpretation), for the edification of the church isthe ability to speak MULTIPLE unknown languages. Most Christians who speak in tongues, speak only one unknown language.

So lets review.

The "gift" for the born again believer is the Holy Spirit. I stated that previously.

There is a separate, unique incident for the believer to speak in tongues. In my circles they call it the baptism of the Holy Ghost. Others call it receiving the manifestaion of the Holy Spirit. Regardless of what it is called, it is something from the Holy Spirit that is available to every Christian. All it takes is faith to receive it.

Since the Bible clearly says that speaking in an unknown language DOES edify the believer, then I believe it is something that we should take advantage of. How are we to come into the fullness of God if we don't make use of all His provisions?

Let me give a personal experience to illustrate how tongues is useful in my walk with the Almighty. When I'm in church, and we are praising and worhsipping, I get to a point within my spirit that speaking praises in English just doesn't justify my love for God that wells up inside me.

So then I can speak in tongues and/or sing in tongues so my spirit can express to God what the English language just doesn't have to express what is in my spirit.

This same thing happens when I'm doing devotional prayers. Sometimes the English language just doesn't have the words I need to express to God what is in my spirit, and needs to be released.

Consider this scripture:

Rom 8:26  Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. (KJV)

Rom 8:26  In the same way the Spirit also joins to help in our weakness, because we do not know what to pray for as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with unspoken groanings. (Holman)

26 So too the [Holy] Spirit comes to our aid and bears us up in our weakness; for we do not know what prayer to offer nor how to offer it worthily as we ought, but the Spirit Himself goes to meet our supplication and pleads in our behalf with unspeakable yearnings and groanings too deep for utterance. (AMP)

So then, whhen we become born again, and receive the Holy Spirit, we have the ability to speak in tongues, if we have the faith.

This personal unknown language is NOT the ministry gift for the edification of the church, but rather for the edification of the believer.

It is a manifestaion of the indwelling Spirit in the believer, and edifies the believer.

Oh, one thing I want to add, and it alludes to something you wrote which is quite valid. The ability of tongues for the believer MUST BE DONE IN LOVE!!!!!!!!!

This scripture makes that quite clear:

1Co 13:1  If I speak the languages of men and of angels, but do not have love, I am a sounding gong or a clanging cymbal. (Holman)

1Co 13:1  Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. (KJV)

1 IF I [can] speak in the tongues of men and [even] of angels, but have not love (that reasoning, intentional, spiritual devotion such as is inspired by God's love for and in us), I am only a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. (AMP)

Any and all Christians who speak in tongues should read that section in 1 Corinthians, chapters 12-14, several times so they can understand how tongues should be used within their personal sphere. The Corinthians, who ALL spoke in tongues, had a problem with abuse of tongues. The Holy Spirit, through the Apostle Paul, set things straight for them, and also for us.

Anyways, peace my brother. I love you, and wish nothing but God's glorious best for you. But I recommend not saying tongues is gone and done away with.

Num 6:24  The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:
Num 6:25  The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:
Num 6:26  The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

It appears as if we are hitting on different cylinders here. Serviceto God without humility is not really service at all. I'm sure you will agree with me there. If not we got a serious problem. Keep in mind i've been coming from the pride vs. humility angle...which most often gets overlooked. Hence why I said that it's not God's intention that the believer be edified but that God be glorified. Isn't the original purpose of tongues to share the GOSPEL of Jesus Christ? It's clear to me that that purpose has been twisted. However that's my own personal opinion. As for my personal opinion, I never said they were completely gone, but I had hoped to get across that they are gone for the most part because many are prideful because they 'supposedly' speak in tongues and no one else can. I've seen churches who "teach" how to speak in tongues...this is impossible. The only class I can think of that comes close to it is French, English, German, and any other language that's spoken in today's world. Just a few thoughts...take them or leave them.  The only thing that matters is that Jesus Christ is shared with the lost, that God is glorified while doing it and doing it  HUMILITY. That's the key here. 99% of those i've spoken to who claim to have the gift of tongues have an issue with pride as well, and i've spoken to quite a few. God Bless

Joshua

Jemidon,

As far as this reader is concerened you did explain your self in fact i understood from your first post.

50 years ago i saw and understood the arrogance of SOME of those who speak in tongues. I read such in ZakDar's post. I could be missreading but i doubt it The below quote is the give away...

Your posts Jem have been very good and well thought out...One scripture i keep in mind about this topic is...I know many wonderfull tounge talking folks..

1 Cor 14:39

39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
KJV

Acts 8: 14-19

14.  Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word from God, they sent to them Peter and John.

15.  On their arrival they prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Spirit;  

16.  for as yet He had not come upon any of them, but they had only been baptised in the name of the Lord Jesus.

17.  Then they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit.

18. But when Simon saw that the Holy Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles hands, he offered them money,

19.  saying, "Give me also this power, so that anyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit."




Verse 18.............Obviously Simon saw/or heard something.   What did he see/hear?  Tongues?  Was tongues here the evidence of receiving the Holy Spirit?




PS  Could a moderator correct the spelling of TONGUES in this thread?



 

You don't want much, do you?  ;) ;) ;D ;D

I'm ROFL, PR.  That misspelling drives me crazy every time I see it.  I just had to ask...........for the sake of sanity. ;) ;D  I must add, I do my share of misspelling, too!  

That's why I use spell ck.

Spell ck? or do you mean spell checker? ;)

Thanks...................is there a spell check here at CU?  I have some kind of spell check something or other on this computer, but I can't use it unless I'm typing a letter on WORD.  I don't like it because it isn't always correct.  Sometimes, visually, I just know a particular word is misspelled;  but that doesn't always help me to spell it correctly, either.  I'll just let it go if I'm too lazy to get a dictionary. ;D

Is that a person who makes sure the job is done? ;D  I mean,  that the spell actually took effect...................... ;) ;D

Actually it's called Spellbound 0.7.3  
 ;) ;) :D :D ;D ;D

It works great on Firefox for spell checking on forums.

Oh, I know what that is, I have it on mine. :D

I spell so poorly some times i cant find the word i want to use in the dictionary  :'(

Hmmm.... you're not my daughter by any chance? (http://www.ramsrule.com/theoriginalherd/images/lol3.gif)

Well, I don't have time to read this whole thread... But let me add my two-cents here. :) I wrote this awhile back at another Christian forum, and I was speaking to a specific audience. However, I hope it works here too. :)

I'd like to answer this one if I may. Wings, your intentions are good, however, I've looked up your references and you've taken things a bit OOC (Out Of Context). If you'd like to use a single verse to support a point, make sure the verses before and after also support it.

Your first reference is 1 Corinthians 2:14, which says:
"The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God." (NIV) This, in my mind, is more of a clear translation, because it not only refers to spiritual gifts, but also to spiritual teaching, such as the Gospel. But it does not speak at all of speaking in tongues. In fact, looking at the context, it is actually speaking of spiritual teaching.

Your second reference is 1 Corinthians 14:2, which reads:

"For anyone who speaks in tongues does not speak to man, but to God." But nowhere does it say that Satan isn't able to understand, nor does it say that the prayers not spoken in tongues go anywhere but directly to God. Read the whole of the passage.

NOTE: Words in italics are being emphasized by me, not by the apostle Paul.

I Corinthians 14:1-25

The point of this passage, in essence, is that it is more important to edify the church and fellow believers than it is to edify yourself. It is more important to instruct and teach unbelievers than it is yourself. So yes, speaking in tongues is a great gift, and blessed are those that have it. But if you are to pray in tongues, pray also for understanding, that if there are any near you that do not understand, they too may be edified, whether they be unbeliever, or fellow believer. That is what is really important afterall, to build one another up in wisdom and understanding of God and his word.

You convenietly left out the scripture that teaches this. ;)
The people in Acts 2,10,19 spoke in human languages.
The Bible tells us not all received this gift. 3000, 5000 in Acts 4:4,31 and 2:41 1Cor.12:30 Please tell me how you understand these passages.

We are saved at the moment of our faith. The believers in the Acts passages were all believers, then they received the gift of tongues. Please read Rom.10:9-10, 1Cor.12:13.

The initial 'evidence doctrine' was coined by the UPCI .It is a false doctrine, in my opinion. It also is not scriptural.

God bless you as you search fot the truth in His word. :-*

bluelake