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A previous thread titled “Well The U.S Courts and Mr Schiavo have got there Wish” has been locked, but I feel compelled to comment on the last post by Thommy.

Thommy said

Thommy –
I find your ‘observations’ on this subject rather crass.  

Just so you know where I’m coming from, I would fall in the category of the ‘religious right’ you are so venomously attacking.  I assure you I have no “political agenda”, however, I certainly DO profess to be an interpreter of God’s will.  God intended us to interpret His will.  It’s called reading the Holy Bible.  

Let me tell you something else - my younger brother has severe cerebral palsy.  He is incapable of feeding himself (or getting a drink of water without assistance).  So you’re telling me it’s God’s will (according to your interpretation) that my brother be dead simply because it takes “science” to keep him alive?

A dying woman?  She wasn’t dying until she was judged (by the liberal humanist socialists) to be unworthy to live and share the same precious air as the elite left.  

Suggestion: If you are ashamed to call yourself a Christian, maybe you shouldn’t.

JN

JudgeNot,

Brother, I agree with you. I'll count myself as religious right also. Folks call all strong Christians "right wing" regardless, so I'll be proud to wear that label.

I didn't think that the Terri Schiavo case was even close. I considered it to represent a state execution of an innocent person for many reasons.

1.  She was not brain dead, and she didn't have any terminal illness. She was actually a strong and healthy person with limited brain functions. Her strength was made apparent with the amount of time she survived without food and water.

2.  Giving someone food and water is not considered to be extraordinary means in keeping someone alive. We all need food and water to live.

3.  Her husband's wait of 7 years to let anyone know Terri's wishes about wanting to die under certain conditions is extremely suspect for many reasons.  (a) There are no witnesses, and no other family member had a hint of what her wishes would be; (b) There is money involved; (c) The husband is with another woman; (d) There is information that the husband may have abused her; etc.

4.  Terri's parents and family wanted to care for her and release her husband from any further responsibility.

In short, the Terri Schiavo case represents a cruel execution of an innocent woman. It was wrong and immoral. There are many other side issues of this case that are very wrong. The one that bothers me the most is the unbridled power of the judiciary.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Colossians 1:12-14  Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

JudgeNot and BEP,

If my post came off as a bit crass, rest assured that I was merely responding in kind, as I feel as stongly about this issue as you do.  I took issue with some of the terminology that was used, and continues to be used like "murder" and "excecution."  I firmly beleive that these things have not happened in this case.  What annoys me the most in these cases is the presence of all the crazed protesters who jump at the opportunity to make a media circus out of anything that can garner their cause some attention.  

My comment about sometimes being ashamed to call myself a Christian comes from a fear of being associated with some branches of my faith that I see as being totally without God.  Ironically, It is often these people that profess their love of Jesus the loudest.  I'd like to continue calling my self Christian though, if that's ok with you.

thanks,

Thom

Are you suggesting that a true Christian does not or should not?


On the Terry Schiavo case ...

If you were to with hold food from a child that was not old enough to feed itself until that child died would this not be murder?  Why then was it not murder to with hold food from Terry until she died? Simply because of her age? Does this mean that when a person becomes old enough that they need assistance to eat that we should with hold food from them until they die? Or what about the person whose arms and legs are missing?  

Or was it because of her mental status? Should we with hold food from all mentally handicapped people that don't know how to feed themselves?

Where exactly should we draw the line?

Are you aware that some of those "crazed protestors" had family or friends in a similar condition as Terry and didn't want the same thing to happen to them?

Should we as Christians sit idly by and just allow things to happen as they may or should we be as the "Good Samaritan" and take action to help those that need our help?

 "Could it not be argued that it was God's will that Terry die when she had her stroke?    "

If it was Gods will for Terri to have died at the time of the stroke she would have. Medical science can not control the will of God.

AMEN!

Thommy:

In your original post, you used the words "...dying woman", in reference to Terry Schiavo.

Terry was NOT dying until food and water were withheld, and the withholding of that food and water was based upon a judicial decision concerning two elements: (1) a questionable statement by the husband that she did not want to live in those conditions. Questionable because there was nothing written, no witnesses to the statement, and it was not advanced as a reason until 7 years AFTER her "accident" when a lawyer specializing in "right to kill/die" cases was hired. (2) the judges determination that Terry Schiavo did not and could not participate in life with any "quality".  

Where does a judge, or anyone, come off in determining what constitutes "quality of life?"  Is quality determined by an ability to walk? or talk? or see? or draw pictures? or eat BBQ?  If that's what it is, then why don't we just go ahead and eliminate (by starvation/dehydration) all paraplegics, dumb, blind, non-artistic BBQ haters (including vegetarians).  Then maybe we can get on with our "high-quality" lives.  Until, of course, we find some other qualification for "quality."   Maybe we can stretch it to include those who don't read at a college level, or who mis-use words.  Such as saying someone is dying when they aren't?

Does anyone remember Soylent Green?

Thommy,
Just to be consistent, I can only assume then you accept it as God's will that thousands of homosexuals die from AIDS. The only reason many are continuing to live is because of medical science. A lack of medical science would mean their death.



Interestingly enough, the case for Terry Schiavo has been maintained by many outside the 'right wing.' In accusing Christians of turning this into a good versus evil thing, you imply that the determination of such labels shouldn't be applied in matters of social justice. Would it be fair then to suggest the Rwandan genocide was neither good nor evil, but a matter of personal interpretation with regards to morality? Perhaps you're claiming that the Schiavo case wasn't so clear-cut as other matters of social justice. If so, then a failure to understand why some would view it so passionately simply lays bare a failure to have an open mind to the beliefs and world-view of others.


Nor is it a way of complacency. God's ways are simple. Understanding and following His Word may at times be challenging, but He has indeed chosen 'morals' to uphold. All Interpretations of the Christian scripture recognize this. In what ways do you understand God to not have chosen morals for humanity?

While it's not Terry Schiavo, an interesting thing happened over the past week.

A schoolteacher apparently got tired of caring for her elderly grandmother, and had her transferred to a hospice. Grammaw was alive, kicking, could eat for herself, and drink, and so on....had a little trouble moving around, was all.

Teach got a temporary guardianship signed off by a probate judge, then proceeded to tell the hospice to cut off food and water.

She went ten days without before some other relatives were able to get another court to grant them custody and transferred her to a hospital for emergency hydration and feeding.

Who is next?  Better hope you don't get old, feeble, disabled, blind, speechless, crippled or contract pneumonia, food poisoning, flu, mumps, muscle cramps, MS or ALS, or get constipated......you're liable to be in BIIIIIG  trouble!....especially if any relatives find out (or your next door neighbor).

For the first time in a long while (my wife would aggressively agree) I have nothing more to add. What a great batch of responses in defence of a woman who was murdered. God help us all when we reach a state of illness which the courts rule as being in a state worthy of execution.

Hitler is alive and well, holding a gavel and wearing a long black robe!

Bronzesnake ( proud fundamental right wing Bible believing Jesus freak literalist!! :D)

Bronze,

For nothing to add I think you did quite well.  ;) ;)

  :D

Bronzesnake

Wow!!!  I have to just say wow at most of you and your assertions.  You'd do well with the propoganda machine.  Some of you are either completely ignorant or willfully ignoring some facts.

Since you all have no trouble drawing out the husband as evil because of his actions let's look at some things.

A) WHY, was Terry Schivio in this state in the first place?  

Let's not be blind folks she didn't have some random stroke because of "bad genes" or "getting old".  She had a stroke because she was killing HERSLEF in the first place.  She had a major eating disorder which is waht CAUSED the stroke in the first place.  So we can see her vanity and obsession with her outward appearence brought on her condition.  (funny how we can change our minds so easily ie: if this person had killed someone else well with an almost joyful shout we claim they brought on the death penalty and the right to be killed "AN EYE FOR AN EYE!!" so says the bible AMEN!!! ::)  )

B)Was she a Christian?  No, so we already know that her beliefs and practices were not in order with the Lord.  Is this an evil crime?  Sort of depends who I ask I guess.  If you're gay it would seem a resounding they got/get what they deserve etc, if they're just unsaved  and law abiding well then that's different.....

C) The claims of murder are so unfounded and ridiculous it makes me want to cry.  You're all as bad vegans with your claims.

Was she "brain dead"  no.... but she was in a permanent vegitative state (as good as brain dead for all intent and reasonable purposes).  No respectable physician gives someone in her condition more than 3-5 years (at the most) to "recover" from that state.  IT'S BEEN FIFTEEN YEARS.  She was NOT EVER going to get any useful brain function back.  Did any of you even LOOK at the difference between a normal brain scan and her brain????  Someone claimed "quality of life" .... Yes let's consider the quality of life she had or anyone like that.  It wasn't any quality what so ever.


Could this be any more twisted?  Talk about learning how to taint this to propogandize them.  Giving food and water to someone is one thing because they EAT IT THEMSELVES!!!  Forcing a tube down someone's throught because they are INCAPABLE of swallowing on their own and using an IV to give them "water" is a far cry from the statement you made bep.  Quite frankly I am shocked and appalled to see a response like this from you but I'll leave it at that.

Then I hear stupid statements like this:
Why is this stupid?  If we use the same logic (which personally I do) that means that likewise LACK of medical science will not stop the Lord's will to keep someone alive either will it?  It must be convenient to use which ever side of that argument suits your purpose.  Regardless of human interaction God's will shall be done in both life and death, forgivness or judgment.

This issue happens EVERY day and has ALWAYS been decided by the courts in the courts.  What on earth made someone make such a fuss about this particular case?  Who is it that made this such an issue?

I hear some claiming wrong doing on the part of the judicial system while lacking the knowledge that congress completely over stepped their bounds.  I guess as long as it fits our current motives allowing the government to decide judicial issues is ok until it affects something you don't like.  Congress had no right to make an injunction on this case and it should be settled in the courts like it ALWAYS is.  The government has no right to step into this issue.  You'd all be picketing the white house if they started nixing your court decisions on other matters.

This family wanted to keep Terry alive for themselves because THEY couldn't let go.  I can only imagine how hard it would be but regardless she was not responsive (after several unbiased tests family doesn't count...they reallly WANT to see a resonse when there is none) and never would be.  Their daughter had a stroke because of her own actions and the consequences were severe.

The Lord puts us through trials and tribulations to refine us and mold us into the works of art and glory that he see's fits.  I lost my father to massive coronary in large part do to his lack of care for himself.  Does heart desease run in my family?  Yes, my grandfather died at 50 of a heart attack, my uncle has had three of them and my father died just shy of his 46th birthday.  To the best of my knowledge NONE of them took care of themselves to avoid it either.  Should I blame God for taking my father? No Should I be angry that my father didn't take care of himself better?  No, not really maybe disapointed but to be angry would harbor bitterness which is against what the Lord tells us.

This was NOT murder and none of you knew or know anything more than the blatant media showed you.  If you had, I can't fathom how you could stick to such a ridiculous stance.  You fight for criminals to be put to death, but fight for a person who can't even chew or swallow food on thier own.  To defend the govn't while ignoring their blatant attempt to shift attention from Mr. Delay's poor actions, desictions and the obvious attempt to capitalize on the vocal religious (and I'm thinking that's exactly what you are right now) for political gain scares me quite frankly.

I seriously hope you all actually (as in really investigating ALL the information on this situtation) pray about this and truly consider it.

I am seeing a lot of John Kerryness about you all.  You're coming off as a bunch of flip floppers!

God bless,

Jason

Quote:
If it was Gods will for Terri to have died at the time of the stroke she would have. Medical science can not control the will of God.
 

Why is this stupid?  If we use the same logic (which personally I do) that means that likewise LACK of medical science will not stop the Lord's will to keep someone alive either will it?  It must be convenient to use which ever side of that argument suits your purpose.  Regardless of human interaction God's will shall be done in both life and death, forgivness or judgment.


Is it realy stupid to believe God is in control of is creation? Please explain how one who claims to believe the Bible can conclude the Bible is stupid.

 Count me as stupid, i believe in His Word and in His power. He gives life and He takes life....

EXACTLY so really if Tery Schivio was to continue living the Lord would preserve her.  However he took away the very ability to even be able to swallow.  I don't see how we can say he was wanting her to hang around.

If you can actually comprehend what I wrote you might be able to understand.  I have never called the bible stupid just peoples miss use of it.    :-\