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Opening volley:

Isa 17:1  The burden of Damascus. Behold, Damascus is taken away from being a city, and it shall be a ruinous heap.
Isa 17:4  And in that day it shall come to pass, that the glory of Jacob shall be made thin, and the fatness of his flesh shall wax lean.
Isa 17:12  Woe to the multitude of many people, which make a noise like the noise of the seas; and to the rushing of nations, that make a rushing like the rushing of mighty waters!
Isa 17:14  And behold at eveningtide trouble; and before the morning he is not. This is the portion of them that spoil us, and the lot of them that rob us.

Here we can read how the city of Damascus is destroyed in a few hours time(v14); also marking the time of "Jacobs' Trouble"(v.4, Jer 30:7), the time, times and a half  time (3.5 years) in which Israel is oppressed by the nations. Clearly it is visible that during the fulfillment of Isa 17 this has period is already underway.

Jer 30:7  Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

How could this calamity have happened?

Israel came into a very, very narrow corner to nuke the capitol of Syria. Let's go to Matt.24 to get some more information :

Mat 24:14  And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Mat 24:15  When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

The abomination of desolation, also named the abomination that makes desolate.
Let's go to Daniel :

Dan 12:10  Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
Dan 12:11  And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.  A thousand, two hundred and ninety days : 3.5 years.

What is this detestable thing that destroys and maketh desolate?

And even more : suddenly it became quiet on the other side of the pond……
Why is America not coming to the rescue for Israel ?





First things first: let us focus in the political situation and the movement of troops in and around the time of Jacob's trouble and the destruction of Damascus.


1Th 5:3  For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Paul here refers to the peace and safety-deal that is struck in Daniel, Isiah also mentioned the deal when he writes :

Isa 28:15  Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

Also in:

Jer 30:6  Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?
Jer 30:7  Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

Details of this political deal can be read in Daniel :

Dan 8:25  And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

The person described here is called in verse 23 a king of fierce countenance,  direct translated as " a mighty mouth" (az paw-neem') which is a pointer towards the little horn that speaks great words  (eg: Dan 7:8 )

This king is helping the Jewish people to confirm this deal that they'll be protected and have peace, even when a vast army comes in and runs over them. They think that the king will protect them…..

Isaiah 28 clearly states that the people know that they'll be threatened, yet they believe their peace is secure through this covenant. Isaiah 28:18 states :

Isa 28:18  And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.

Notice once again the words "overflowing scourge" directly translated as a "rushy whip" (sha^t?aph sho^t? )  



Analysis of troop movement in the last days will reveal the rushy whip; this whip is also called "whirlwind" in Dan 11:40. But how did this plot thicken ?

Remember, we're still talking about the same king that confirmed the covenant (of death) and apparently he has his armies close to Israel. His political career is even more detailed portrayed in :

Dan 11:36  And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

And further:

Dan 11:40  And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.

Notice: any direction that is mentioned in a prophecy is from the place it has been prophecied from. In Daniels' case we are dealing with ancient Babylon; modern day Iraq.

The king of the north is identified as "the bear" or "Gog and Magog" (Eze 38), modern day Russia and some rogue Islamic states. They will conspire to attack Israel.

This overflow in verse 40 is overflowing and passing through Iraq (towards the Holy Land.) is the same as mentioned in Isa 28:18. The sudden destruction that comes upon the Jewish state gives the reaction as described in Isaiah 17. Read again :

Isa 17:14  And behold at eveningtide trouble; and before the morning he is not. This is the portion of them that spoil us, and the lot of them that rob us.

The attack starts in the evening, and the response on that attack is done before the next morning; Isa 17v1b […] Damascus is taken away from being a city, and it shall be a ruinous heap.

On to the big question that was mentioned at the beginning of this document !

Why is America not responding, not retaliating ?


Ezechiel 38 will unveil this 'mystery'. For a mystery she has been….

Eze 38:2  Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him,


Eze 38:9  Thou shalt ascend and come like a storm, thou shalt be like a cloud to cover the land, thou, and all thy bands, and many people with thee.
Eze 38:10  Thus saith the Lord GOD; It shall also come to pass, that at the same time shall things come into thy mind, and thou shalt think an evil thought:
Eze 38:11  And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates,
Eze 38:12  To take a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places that are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land.


Ezechiel once again confirmes and identifies the whirlwind of Dan 11:40b. In verse 10 however the plot thikens in a very big way. Verse 10 reads : "at the same time shall [..]thou think an evil thought:"

Eze 38:11  And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates,

The land of unwalled villages is identified as the USA, one reason is that because of the covenant that is confirmed and protected by them, and make them desolate (v12).

Once again: an abomination that maketh desolate. (v12)

In short: the USA is targeted by several nuclear devices and destroyed at the same time the armies do their run towards Israel. At that time, Matthew 24 reads :


Mat 24:21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22  And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.



Appendixes :


Rev. Kenneth Hagin confirmed the imminent nuclear attack on Israel on March the 2nd 2005 through the TCT Network. He also received confirmation about this attack on Israel from Mr. Netanyahu, 2nd in command in the Israeli cabinet. Mr. Netanyahu also pointed out that with the intercontinental ballistic missile Iran now has, a nucleair device could potentially hit targets as far as the coastal cities of the USA.


Received from the Lord on January the 29th, 2005 +/- 3:00

"The region where you live now will see the fulfillment of the prophecy for the whole world in regards to Mijn Spirit that will cover the earth as a blanket. Even the full outporing of My Holy Spirit will not get some places out of darkness." ( Europe and other places came to my mind )

This place and others will receive this. This is the harvest, as often called 'the end-time harvest' Where I saw the image of an atomic bomb exploding.
" Satan has desired a harvest for himself and it will come in the appearance of the black/pale horse (in Rev.)" en He went on with the time after I thought about the timing. "The time of My harvest will be fulfilled before that time, the other will take place in the period of 1260 days, before the end of days, My Coming"

 Good to have you back my friend!  :D

I don't have time to respond to your post at the moment. I'll get back as soon as I can.

Bronzesnake

Has Damascus ceased to be a city? No. I've found that it is the only Prophecy that has yet to be fulfilled before the Rapture. I'm not sure of it's time frame however, I know this prophecy hasn't been fully fulfilled because Damascus is still operational as a city. So I wonder, will it happen before, or after the Rapture? Just a few thoughts. God Bless

Joshua

HTML - version on: http://www.geocities.com/twobombs/isa17study.html
This version has italics, fonts and such for reading improvement.

Jemidon2004 : if you read the document carefully you will find out that the rapture you are expecting might be a somewhat different then expected 'rapture'....

But I absolutely agree with you that after the fullfillment Isa17 we are on a one-way lane towards the rapture and second coming of Christ.

The fullfillment of Isa17 however might not be very far off; once again, please read this study top-to-bottom.
A lot, if not all, pieces are in place.

twobombs:
We are not living in the "last days" of prophesy. Those last days started at Pentecost (Acts 2:12-20) and were interrupted with the setting aside of the nation Israel.

Today we are living in the dispensation of grace, which was kept secret since the world began, and revealed to the Apostle Paul. This dispensation cannot be found in the OT prophesies or in the gospels. This dispensation will come to a close at the rapture of the Chruch, the Body of Christ. The rapture also cannot be found in prophesy or the gospels. It was part of the "mystery" that was revealaed to the Apostle Paul.

Paul does tell believers that they do not have to worry about the "last days" (Tribulation) of prophesy, but he does warn us about conditions during the last days of this dispensation.

There are NO OT prophesies that need be fulfilled prior to the rapture of the Church as J-2004 stated.

The "last days" that started in Acts 2:15-20 will resume with the rapture of the Chruch.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

LoL. You slay me with laughter BigD. You said there are no OT prophecies that need to be fulfilled before the Rapture. That's odd...if i remember correctly, Christ fulfilled quite a numerous bunch of OT Prophecies with His birth, life, death, burial, and resurrection...lol. Plus, if you'll read my post again, I said i wasn't sure of the time frame of the events of Isaiah 17. I never said when it would happen, I simply said I wasn't sure of the time frame. As to whether or not it happens before the rapture, or after the rapture. I never said there was a need for Prophecy to be fulfilled. However, in Scripture we see that there are several prophecies that will be fullfilled in the latter days. Here we go again with the interruption of the seting aside of the nation of Israel. Havn't we already discussed this before? Sheesh. Anyway, class is getting underway so I must call it quits for now. God Bless

Joshua

b]Jemidon2004 posted:[/b]

BigD responds:
You posted: "Has Damascus ceased to be a city? No. I've found that it is the only Prophecy that has yet to be fulfilled before the Rapture. I'm not sure of it's time frame however,... "

What you posted indicates to me that somewhere before the rapture you believe that Damascus will cease to be a city.

Damascus ceasing to be a city is OT prophesy and WILL NOT occur before the rapture.

Now you got me LOL!

It is highly recommended that if the school you attend has a reading comprehension course that you enroll in it. Or maybe you should change schools.

You, Bronze and others still have not SHOWN ME  that Joel, in Joel 2:28-32 is not speaking of the Tribulation and/or Peter, at Pentecost, didn't know where he was in the timetable of prophesy. Isn't Peter quoting Joel about the "last days" almost word for word? Wasn't Peter's understanding of the OT scriptures opened up to him by Jesus prior to his asscension? Isn't Peter speaking "as the Spirit gave him utterance?" Aren't the "last days" signs beginning to appear? When will you and your friends begin to answer those questions? NEVER I suspect.

My Bible teaches me that two things must occur prior to the establishment of the Kingdom upon the earth. 1 - Christ must suffer, and 2 - Israel must go through the Tribulation.  Now explain to me HOW, in Acts 3:19-21, can Peter offer the kingdom to Israel if Christ hadn't already suffered, (as we know he did), and the Tribulation hadn't even started yet? When will you and the others explain that to me?

If my understanding is in error, PLEASE SHOW ME from scripture my error. PLEASE DON'T JUST TELL ME. I don't learn anything that way.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

It seems you just focused on "Has damascus ceased to be a city, no I've found that it has yet to be fulfilled before ther Rapture." Not even looking at: " I'm not sure of it's time frame however,..." What I posted says exactly what I meant for it to say. In Scripture, we're not given an exact time period as to when it will cease to be a city...considering it has come under attack and has been destroyed partially once before in history. Another thing, it is highly recommended to you, that you not resort to telling me that I should attend a reading comprehension course because I have no need for that. I'm in Honors classes and have as well taken an Advanced Placement HISTORY class. So I sincerely doubt, I need reading comprehension. I'm quite up today and more advanced in my reading abilities than that of my current peers here. If I changed schools, I wouldn't graduate on time. I highly resent that you make such a recommendation. Just to give you insight as to my reading abilities. I'm sure you have read the novel Charleston, or Heaven and Hell by John Jakes. I was reading those novels in the 7th and 8th grades. In 7th grade, i took a reading comprehension test, and I was comprehending things on the level of a junior in college. So I'm quite sure of my abilities in reading comprehension. In reference to your statement about Joel...it's hard to show something to someone, when one refuses to accept what we have given and dismisses it as wrong. As the old saying goes, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. you can whip it till it's dead, then neither of you have recieved a reward. You are without transportation, and the horse is dead. In the end both of you lose. See, we've been over this before about the Tribulation and the setting aside of the Jews, I don't wish to go over it again because it's a waste of time arguing in circles with you. Again, i suggest you think about what recommendations you make before you make them about my reading abilities and comprehension. I assure you, the Lord has blessed me far beyond my years. Don't make the same mistake again. I trust you won't. God Bless

Joshua

Jemidon-2004 posted

BigD responded:


J-2004 replied:

BigD responds:
Your complete statement inticates that you believe the timeframe will be sometime BEFORE the rapture. If what you wrote is "exactly" what you meant to say, Then what I responded to was 'exactly what you wrote.

Maybe I was wrong in saying that you needed a reading comprehension course. Maybe I should have said a course in effective writing.

Jemi, YOU HAVE NEVER responded from scripture to what I requested in my last post to you. Yes you have told me what you believe but I am quite certain that you will NEVER answer my questions from scritpure. The scripture that I used to support my contention comes straight from the KJV of the Bible. What chapter and verse of the Bible do you use to tell me what you believe that refutes my viewpoint. How can I believe what you say when you don't SHOW ME.

About the easiest way to SHOW ME that my contention that the Tribulation started in Acts 2:15-20, is by SHOWING ME that Joel in 2:28-32 is not speaking of the Tribulation. Peter in Acts 2:15-20 quotes Joel almost word for word and says that BUT THIS IS THAT WHICH WAS SPOKEN BY THE PROPHET JOEL."

Either Peter didn't understand the prophetic timetable or Joel wasn't speaking about the Tribulation. WHICH IS IT?

If Joel was speaking of the Tribulation, and Peter, who was speaking as the Spirit gave him utterance, was speaking the truth about the tribulation, and it had not been interrupted, the Tribulation would have ended after seven years with the 2nd coming of Christ. It would have meant that Israel, as a nation, had repented, as Peter requested in Acts 3:19-20, Jesus would have returned at the end of the Tribulation. There would have been not need for this dispensation of grace. The kingdom would have been established 7 years after Pentecost.

I am going to apoligize in advance for what I am about to write, and I don't want you to consider this a personal attack. It HURTS ME to have to go to these measures, but either PUT UP OR SHUT UP.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

BigD & all interested :

Please read

Rom 10:12  For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13  For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

and

Joe 2:31  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
Joe 2:32a And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered

Joe 2:32b for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.


It is not a coincidence that Paul first states that there is no difference between Jew and Greek, immediately followed with the call upon the name of the Lord,
And Joel describing an important event (2:31a) preceding 'the great and terrible day of the Lord', and once again followed by : "whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be delivered' (2:32a)

However: big-city citizens of the USA have a very big chance not being able to witness that 'great and terrible day', nor the day of Jacob's trouble. Please read the start of this thread that deals with this.

Even more info on this at http://www.geocities.com/twobombs/rapture.html (updated content)

twobombs posted

BigD responds:
The reason that there is no longer any difference between the Jew and the Gentile is because, according to Romans 11:7-12 the Jew has been "set aside" just as the Gentile was back in Genesis 11; at the Tower of Babel.

We first learn this in Acts 10 when God informs Peter that he is no longer to consider the Gentile unclean.

Prior to the setting aside of Israel, salvation/justification was through Israel. Paul tells us in Romans 3:1,2 "What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oricles of God."

So what that means, prior to God setting the nation of Israel aside, salvation/justification was through Israel. If one who was a Gentile wanted to serve the true and living God, that one would have to become a Jew (proselyte) and place themselves under the Law.

The Law was only given to Israel. Being Israel is set aside; so is the Law. The Law will again be in effect after the rapture of the Chruch, and Israel as a nation repents and recognizes Jesus as their long promised Messiah.

Paul says in Romans 11:32 "For God hath concluded them all (Jew and Gentile) in unbelief, that He might might have mercy upon all.

Salvation/justification today is not for one to become a Jew (proselyte). Today there is no longer a distinction between Jew and Gentile. We are all in the same "set aside boat." Salvation/justification today is not by doing the deeds/works of the Law by FAITH. It is obtained by putting our FAITH and trust in the Cross work (death, burial, and resurrection) of Christ. It wasn't that way when Jesus walked upon the earth. The purpose of the Cross was still a secret/mystery (see 1Cor.2:7,8)

Being there is no longer a distinction between Jew and Gentile, anyone can call upon the name of the Lord and be saved on the same basis - FAITH in the Cross work of Christ.

twobombs continues:


BigD responds:
In the above passages, Joel is speaking about a period during the Tribulation. It has nothing to do with members of the Body of Christ today because we will have been raptured to heaven during the time of the Tribulation.  Yes, during the Tribulation; those who call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Also, they must endure to the end (Matt.24:13).

twobombs goes on:

BigD responds:
God has never turned anyone away that had a desire to serve Him. Since the fall of Adam, one was saved/justified by calling upon the name of the Lord and doing what God required at that point in time of human history. Incidently, no one knew about the cross and its purpose until it was revealed to the Apostle Paul. It "was kept secret since the world began."

No member of the Body of Christ will experience the 'great and terrible day of the Lord' regardless if they live in the USA or not. They will ALL be in heaven because of the rapture.

I only read a few paragraphs on the site you mentioned above to know that the rest was not worth my time to read. I would have learned what you believe but not what the Bible teaches in context.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Much and Love The Lord!

BigD: I am happy that you are 100% sure of your case....   ;D

twobombs
I'm happy thay you are happy that I am happy.

If what I believe is what the Bible teaches, why wouldn't I be happy? The only way that I could be happier is when what I believe is in error and someone SHOWS ME the error of my belief. I'm still in the learning mode.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

It appears as if Jemidon-2004 took the 2nd option in my last sentence to him. PLEASE correct me if I am wrong.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

BigD: daniels' 69th week ended exactly on the day when Jesus entered Jerusalem and spoke the words:

Luk 13:34  O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!

confirmed by:

Mat 21:43  Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

There have been people that calculated the exact day from the days of Daniel ( chuck misslers' khouse.org comes to mind as one example )

BigD responds:
It is my contention that the 70th week of Daniel started at Pentecost (Acts 2:15-20). Therefore, I calculate that the 69th week ended the day before.

Knowing exactly when the 70th week started makes is much easier to tell when the 69th ended.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord.

Hi BigD,

I know/knew that our ideas concerning the start of the 70th week and the end of the 69th week differ; that's why is I posted my previous post in the first place.

In my view the start of 70th week is an event yet to happen somewhere in the future; look at the date at the footer of every post I ever made/make.

However do realise that with all the views that are out on this planet you are one of the few that actually believe the 70th week already started somewhere in 30ad; believing that 'the clock' stopped somewhere in the 70th week.

Just FYI,
2B

BigD responds
We both know that Daniel 9:24 speaks of the 70th week (Tribulation.)

It is my contention that Joel 2:28-32 is speaking of the 70th week of Daniel.

According to Luke 24:45 Jesus, prior to his accesion to heaven, opened up the understanding of His diciples to the OT Scriptures.

The disciples, including Peter, were speaking, at Pentecost, "...as the Spirit gave them utterance. Therefore, Peter knew exactly where he was in the timetable of prophesy when he spoke the words: "THIS IS THAT WHICH WAS SPOKEN OF BY THE PROPHET JOEL." He quotes Joel almost word for word. It is my contention that Both Joel and Peter are talking about the LAST DAYS (Tribulation). Peter is telling his listeners that those signs were beginning to appear.

The following is what I have asked of other, and they seem to refuse to respond to it. I hope you will.

WHICH IS IT? Either Joel in 2:28-32 isn't speaking of the Tribulation and/or Peter doesn't know where he is in the timetable of prophesy. PLEASE clear that up for me. I am going by what I believe the Bible teaches. If it is saying something else, PLEASE explain it to me.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

Sorry to disappoint. However, I did choose the second option so I would not have to deal with your foolishness any longer. Consider yourself ignored. I had hoped you wouldn't resort to petty ultimatums and childish games BigD as a result of your "Triple, double-dare" This isn't a game to me, though it seems a game for you. I'm done with this thread and I'm done dealing with you. God Bless

Joshua

BigD responds
I respect your decision. It would all have been very simple if you would have explained to me what I requested. This is not a game with me either. If my beliefs are wrong, then I want to be SHOWN not just told.

In my younger years I was told too much of what I should believe, then I found out they were unscriptural beliefs, and that they were man made doctrines.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

I have asked Bronzesnake, Jemidon-2004 and twobombs to explain to me the following:

WHICH IS IT? Either Joel in 2:28-32 isn't speaking of the Tribulation and/or Peter doesn't know where he is in the timetable of prophesy in Acts 2:15-20. PLEASE clear that up for me. I am going by what I believe the Bible teaches. If it is saying something else, PLEASE explain it to me.

To this date, I have not received an explanation. Wonder why?

 

Are you joking???  We have shown you time and time again.  Telling and showing are the same on a message board b/c we arent meeting in person.   But I have showed and Bronzesnake have both showed you that you are wrong in this matter or do you forget the Rapture thread or the convo on the fifthday forum?

     BigD,

    What Peter is saying is that the Holy Spirit was prophecized to come and indwell all believers. He wasn't really speaking of the Tribulation but of the Holy Spirit being poured out on all believers and indwelling them. Cosider the verses from Isaiah below for instance.

Isaiah 61:1: The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
   2: To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

     In verse 2 above the "acceptable year of the Lord" (in blue)was fulfilled at the time Christ read the prophecy in the synagogue. "The day of vengeance of our God"(in purple) is a future prophecy to be fulffilled at the Second Coming of Christ. There is a nearly a 2000 year time gap in the same sentence and we are still waiting for the day of vengeance to begin.

     Jesus shocked the people when he read the first half of the sentence, handed the scroll back and said the part of the prophecy he read was fulfilled in their hearing. Jesus knew that the day of vengeance was 2000 years in the future.

Acts 2:15: "For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
   16: But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
   17: And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
   18: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
   19: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
   20: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

     There is a time gap in the above verses just as there was a time gap in the prophecy of Isaiah 61. Did Peter understand the time gap? I don't know? Remember Peter just received the Holy Spirit as this was happening. This was his first day being indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Peter still had much to learn when this took place. At this point Peter was still acting as though he was under the law. Peter hadn't understood many things fully at this time. God had just begun to teach Peter the truth of all he was to know.

Acts 10:13:  "And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
   14: But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
   15: And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
   16: This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven."

     In the verses above it is clear that Peter did not understand that the law of Moses was not in effect anymore.
Peter argued with God about eating anything unclean. It should be clear to see that Peter was still learning the truths of God. He was by no means an expert even by chapter 10 of Acts. If Peter is argueing with God over eating something he considered unclean when God told him to eat, that should tell us that Peter doesn't know everything yet.

     To answer your question I don't think Peter had yet understood the timing of the Great Tribulation. He didn't understand the law was not in effect by Acts chapter 10, and he made the statement about Joel hours after first receiving the Holy Spirit himself.

    Consider that even the prophets did not understand the prophecies they gave. They did not understand all the details.

    There is a time gap between Acts 2:18 and verse 19 just as there was a time gap in the middle of the sentence in Isaiah 61:2. Did Peter understand this at the time he spoke? I don't know for sure, but I do know Peter still had ALOT to learn at that point in time.

     Consider these things carefully because you have based your entire understanding of the end times on these verses. If Peter did or did not see the time gap doesn't change the fact that there is a time gap, just as the Jews didn't see the time gap in Isaiah 61:2.

     You have interpreted everything based on these verses and you must ignore many things and change the meanings of many things to make these verses fit your interpretation which is a big mistake. Your listening to Peter who at the time he said the things in acts, wouldn't eat anything unclean. Peter was not fully informed on many things when he spoke of Joel 2.

    Don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Reconsider these things. You said you wanted to know the truth. Now search these things and see if there is truth in what I have written.

    There is one more thing you must consider: Daniel's 70 week begins with a covenant made by Antichrist between Israel and many nations. There is also another event that will occur on the day the 70th week begins. The two witnesses of Revelation 11 will start their 1260 day ministry on the day the 70th week begins and will be killed on the day of the mid week. Daniel''s 70th week can not have begun if the two witnesses have not started their 1260 days of prophecizing.

     I have just finished a study of the two witnesses of Revelation 11 on my "Understanding the Book of Revelation" thread and have explained the details of this. If you truely seek to understand then read my study on Revelation 11.

                                                          Paul2 8)

Amen Paul2  :) thats a good example of how prophesy can come about....reminds me of King David saying he had his hands and feet pierced. And his garments parted.

Psa 22:16  For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
Psa 22:17  I may tell all my bones: they look [and] stare upon me.
Psa 22:18  They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.


We all know now that it wasnt David himself, but Christ he was prophesying about. So in this case we need to take what David said out of its context, because of the prophecy of the crucifiction of Christ in the context of that Psalm.  So, sometimes prophecy is not always what it seems.

God bless

tsu05
Welcome Newbie.

I do not recall having any dialogue with you on this or any other subject. To my recollection, you have SHOWN me nothing. So, where do you get the "we" you mentioned. Have you got a mouse in you pocket or something.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

PART 1

THANK YOU for your efforts in trying to explain to me in such great detail what I have been asking of others. They haven't even come close to what you posted. Therefore, I will respond to everything you have posted. THANKS again.


BigD responds:
If Peter isn't saying that the "last days" (Tribulation) are here, then WHY is he even quoting Joel 2:28-38 and saying THIS IS THAT... when Joel is speaking of the "last days" (Tribulation)?

Paul2 continues:

BigD responds:
I am very familiar with Isaiah 61:1 & 2. In fact I quoted them to Bronzesnake @Theology / Prophecy - Current Events / Re:Rapture   on: January 21, 2005, 03:33:35 PM  

Paul2 goes on:

BigD responds:
How can there be a time gap in those above verses when Peter is saying that "THIS IS THAT into regards to what was happening AT THAT TIME?

What do you mean that Peter still had much to learn? Before Jesus accended back to heaven He opened up the understanding to all the OT scriptures to His disciples. They knew and undertood everything in God's plan to that point of time. They, including Peter, knew exactly where they were in the timeclock of prophesy. Not only that, at Pentecost they were speaking "as the Spirit gave them utterance" (Acts 2:4).

Paul2 goes on:

BigD responds:
You cannot SHOW ME one verse of scripture prior to Acts 10 that says that the Gentile was no longer to be considered "unclean," or that the Law was no longer in effect.

As I said previously, Peter understood ALL the OT Scriptures prior to Jesus returning to heaven. There is nothing in the OT Scriptures that say that the Jew and Gentile will be on equal footing, without distinction, and not under the Law. That is all future revelation to Paul and part of the "mystery that was revealed to him AFTER Acts 10.

END PART 1

PART 2

Paul2 continues:
     
BigD responds:
Are you telling me that Jesus did a poor job explaining the OT Scriptures to His Apostles?  If He did, then "their understanding" would be an erroroneous statement.

Can you produce chapter and verse where it says that the Law was not in effect prior to Acts 10?I don't think so. So, how was Peter to know?

Paul2 continues:
     
The OT prophets often seen the 1st and 2nd advent of Jesus, but preceived them as one event. Isaiah 61:1 & 2 is a good example and so is Isaiah 9:6 "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulders..." Quite a gap there too. There are others but I won't go into them.

Paul 2 continues:
   
BigD responds:
If there is a "time gap" between Acrs 2:18 and 19, then that same "time gap" exist in Joel 2:29 and 30.

I don't see a "time gap" during the Tribulation, but I do see that things will continually get worse and worse. If the "time gap" is there, then it can't be too long because the Tribulation is to last only 7 years. If you think there is a time gap, How long do you think it is?

Paul2 goes on:

BigD responds:
I have consider very carefull what the Bible says and in the context in which it was said.

If you believe that there is a time gap between verses 18 and 19 of Acts 2, WHY is there not a period behind verse 18. Verse 19 is a continuation of verse 18.

In Luke 4:19 Jesus stopped at the end of the phrase of Isaiah 61, "To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord" because if he had continued, then he would not have been able to say, as He did in Luke 4:21 "This day is this scripture fulfilled."

The OT Scriptures have spoken often of Israel going through the Tribulation period. If they had studied their scriptures then they knew that the Tribulation was still to come. It isn't a matter of their not understanding.

Paul2 continues:
     
BigD responds:
I have based what I believe on exactly what the Bible says. I do believe that the Biblical authors were writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and put down exactly what God wanted them to write. Therefore, I take God's word for what is says. God said what He meant and meant what He said. I do not spiritualize scripture to make it fit what I want to believe or just guess as to what some passages mean. I will admit that I am still in the learn mode and do not completely unders stand everything that God wants us to know. I don't know anyone that does.

Are you trying to tell me that after Jesus opened up the understanding of the OT Scriptures, prior to His returning to heaven, that Peter was ill informed? GIVE ME A BREAK Wasn't he speaking "as the Spirit gave him utterance?" Where before Acts 10 do we find that the Jews could eat food that was "unclean?" I don't think you can.

Paul2 goes on:
   
BigD responds:
What baby and what bathwater?

I have considered everything you have posted and answered it in total.

PLEASE be so kind as to doing likewise for me.

Paul2 goes on:
   
BigD responds:
Where (chapter and verse) does it say that the 70th week cannot start prior to a covenant being signed with the ani-Christ? Yes, one will be signed. There wasn't one signed when the Tribulation started in Acts 2.

I have read a portion of you study on the book of the Revelation and have rejected some of what you have written. I feel that I have better studies to read about the Tribulation then what I have seen of your writing. I do admire you efforts though.

Personally I don't study the book of the Revelation a great deal because I know that I will not be going through it, but I'll be raptured prior to its resumption.

Being I believe that the instructions in righteousness for members of the Body of Christ can be found only in Paul's Epistles, I study them a great deal. Yes, I study the OT Scriptures also. They too are for my learning.

Looking forward to your reply.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

John 19:30: "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost."

Matthew 27:51:  "And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;"

BigD responds:
    Yes! Now I know that you can at least understand  what I'm saying. This is what I contend. There is a time gap. Christ still hasn't come back. The Holy Spirit was poured out 2000 years ago but verse 30-32 are yet to be fulfilled. There is a time gap between verse 29 and verse 30, just as you have said. You can see it because you made the quote above.

Joel 2: 29: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
   30: And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
   31: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
   32: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

     There is a time gap between verse 29 (in blue) and verses 30-32 (in purple).

BigD responds
     I can't believe you just said,"I don't see a time gap during the tribulation," You could see it, you said so yourself. You just won't accept it. Your problem is that you don't underdstand the book of Revelation and all the prophecies it contains that prove you wrong.

    How long is the time gap between verse 29 and verse 30? 1973 years and still counting. From 32 a.d until the present time. The fulfillment of verses 30-32 are yet in the future.

BigD responds:
    Back to Isaiah 61:2 "To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;" Same thing. There is a "Time gap" in the same sentence never mind next verse. You said you understand the time gap in Isaiah 61:2, so why can't you understand the same appr. time gap in Joel 2:29-30? Because it doesn't fit your interpretation is the answer. You "see" but refuse to accept. Thats the point. You say "show me" and we do, but you refuse to accept anything that does not fit your interpretation, even when scripture itself proves you wrong.

BigD responds
    Yes!!!!! And the same thing applies to Joel 2:29 and verses 30-32. Verses 30-32 have not been fulfilled yet. they are future still, just as the day of the Lords vengence is yet future. You see but just won't accept what you see.

BigD responds:
      You said above that the tribulation would only last for 7 years. Daniels 70th week is 7 years. Daniels 70th week has not started yet, therefore the 7 years of tribulation have not started yet. You do not believe exactly what the Bible teaches because the Bible proves you wrong. Daniel's 70 week will begin in the future. Antichrist will make a covenant with Israel for one week, which is 7 years. The day the covenant is made, the two witnesses of Revelation 11 begin their public 3 1/2 year, or exactly 1,260 days of prophecizing and will be killed by the Antichrist at the midweek of Daniel's 70th week. When the two witnesses are in Jerusalem, when it stops raining for 3 1/2 years Daniel's 70th week has begun, not until.

BigD responds
    I'm saying that the writers of the New Testament under the direction of the Holy Spirit used prophecy in their writings. There are great mysteries hidden in the scriptures which Paul told us to seek out. Peter is using the same style of Prophecy that Isaiah used. The Holy Spirit led both to write and have a time gap in between events. You admit there is a time gap in Isaiah 61:2, so you understand this is a method God uses in Prophetic writing.

Paul2 goes on:
   
BigD responds:
Daniel 9:27: "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

      There wasn't a covenant in Acts 2 because the tribulation did not start in Acts 2. I think your catching on to this after all. You seem to be understanding, just not accepting. The two witnesses did not begin their 1260 day ministry in Acts 2 and they weren't killed by the Antichrist 1260 days later in Acts 2 either. Theres your proof. The tribulation did not start in Acts 2 because the events of Daniel's 70th week did not start in Acts 2. Daniel's 70th week is still in the future.

BigD responds
      How about you have rejected ALL that I have written. Maybe your reading "better" studies by more "educated" people but I teach the interpretation that the WHOLE BIBLE supports. If you can not fit all of prophecy together without contradicting your own interpretation, your interpretation is wrong.

    Your mind is made up. I knew this when I started. I just wanted to provide you with the answers to your questions. I have answered you. There are prophecies you haven't considered that prove you are wrong.

     Revelation 11 shoots down your theory, Daniel 9:27 shoots down your theory.
BigD responds
           Ding, Ding, Ding!!!! Tell him what he's won Bob!!!
Theres the major problem!!!!!!!!! You ignore the study of all of the Scriptures. How can you expect to understand what you don't bother studing. The book of Revelation sequences the Old Testament prophecies!!!

BigD responds
     Better learn the WHOLE BIBLE, stop dismissing John. You don't study the things that prove you wrong which is unwise.

                                                           Paul2 8)

PART 1

First of all, I do not find a response to any of  previous PART 1

Paul2 continues:
     
BigD responds:

Paul2 replies:
NO REPLY.

Bigd Continues and asks:

Paul2 responds:

BigD responds:
There is nothing in those above verses say that the law was done away with. You are reading what you want to believe into those verses. That is what you accuse me of doing.

Paul2 posted::
     
BigD responded:

Paul 2 replies:
NO REPLY

Paul 2 continues:
   
BigD responds:

Paul2 replies:

BigD responds:
Christ has not returened because of the gap between  Acts 2:18 and 19, or Joel 2:29 and 30-32. It is my contention that there is no gap there.

My contention is this - The Tribulation started in Acts 2:15-20. It was  interrupted after the stoning of Stephen in Acts 7 and when God set the nation of Israel aside. Israel, as a nation was set aside after the rejected God the Father, when they refused to be baptized of John and establish thier own righteouness (Romans 10:3). They rejected  God the Son when they demanded that Jesus be curcified. They then rejected God the Holy Ghost (Spirit) when the leaders of Israel killed (stone) Stephen, in Acts 7, who was filled with the Holy Spirit.

With Israel's rejection of the Trinity, there was no way that the "so called" great commission could be carried out through the nation of Israel, and the world blessed through the nation of Israel.

Therefore, God interrupted the Tribulation by setting Israel aside, raising up the Apostle Paul to usher in this dispensation of grace. This dispensation will end with the rapture of the Chruch, the Body of Christ, THEN the Tribulation will resumes. This dispensation of grace is a ("parenthetical") period in the dispensation of the Law, and cannot be found in prophesy.

That, my friend, is the reason for the delay of Christ's 2nd coming.

BigD posted:
.

Paul2 responded:

BigD replies:
You are so right. I can't believe I said that either. When I wrote that I had the gap between Joel 2:29 and 30-32 in mind; not the interruption (gap) within the Tribulation itself.

My belief is that when the Tribulation resumes, after the rapture of the Chruch, the Body of Christ, the Triblation will then continue from where is interrupted. Hope I made myself more clear now.

Peter in Acts 2:16 what Joel was saying in 2:28. Peter, speaking as the Spirit gave him utterance, is saying that the events that are taken place are not the result of his hears being drunk, but because the signs of the "last days" (Tribulation) were beginning to appear.

Paul2 goes on:

BigD responds:

Paul2 replies:
 

PART 2
BigD posted:

Paul2 responded:

BigD replies:
In Luke 14:19 Jesus stoped reading  Isaiah 61:2 after the phrase "the acceptable year of the Lord", becaus of a gap, Why didn't Peter stop reading after verse 29 because of a gap being there?  So, if it applies to where Jesus stopped reading, WHY doesn't it apply to where Peter read. As you say: "same thing."

Paul2 continues:
     
BigD responds:
Would you be so kind as to post the scriptures  that I have  changed the meaning of to make them fit what I want to believe. Also, show me the correct interpretation of them.

BigD posted:

Paul2 responds:
 
BigD responds:
I fully agree with you as to what Daniel 9 says about the 70th week. Daniel preceived it to be one continuous week; jut as the OT prophets preceived the 1st and 2nd coming of Christ as one event. The also precieved that when their Messiah arrived, that He would sit on David's throne without having to face death. The DID NOT SEE the unprophesied period of this dispensation of grace in which we now live.

I agree that the anti-Christ will make a 7 year pack with the nation of Israel. However, I do not believe that it must be signed prior to the start of the Tribulation.

BigD posted:

Paul2 responds:
 
BigD replies:
So you are saying in essance that I really shouldn't believe what Peter is saying at Pentecost, and that I should consult you as to what he actually means. I don't think I will do that.

Paul tells us in Romans 15:8 that Jesus came to confirm (fulfill) the promises (prophesies) made to the fathers. They have not yet all been fulfilled. Paul reveals to us secrets/mysteries that were "kept secret since the world began," but I really don't know of any hidden mysteries he says that we were to seek out. Also, I know the Bereans searched out the Scriptures daily to see if what Paul was telling them was the truth.

Also, I know that there were things in the OT that were in "shadows and types" (could not be seen), but Paul, in his writings sheds light on them, so we can now see what they were. All of God's "plan for the ages" is now made known to us. Paul tells us in Colossians 1:25,26 "Whereof I (Paul) am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfill (make full/complete) the word of God; the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest." So, everything that God wants us to know, we now have in our Bible.

As I explained above, the OT prophets precieved things a one event because they were not aware of the dispensation of grace that interrupted the things they prophesied. You evidently do not see the dispensation of grace as a ("parenthetical") period within the dispensation of the Law. The Law will again be in effect AFTER the rapture of the Chruch, the body of Christ

END OF PART 2
God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

PART 3
Paul2 goes on:
   
BigD responds:

Paul2 replied:

BigD replies
I don't see where is says in Daniel 9:27 that a covenant must be signed prior to the START of the Tribulation. I think that you are reading that into it.

You are right. There wasn't one signed in Acts 2 either; when the Tribulation started.

BigD posted:

Paul2 responds:
   
BigD replies:
What you say above is highly quesitonable and debatable. To this point you have shown me anything that should change what I believe.

BigD posted

Paul2 responds
     Theres the major problem!!!!!!!!! You ignore the study of all of the Scriptures. How can you expect to understand what you don't bother studing. The book of Revelation sequences the Old Testament prophecies!!!

BigD replies:
I have never said or implied that I ignore all the Scriptures. I have gone throuht indepth studies of the book of the Revelations, and have studied the OT books. The instructions in righteous, and what our Christian walk should be, are contained in Paul's writings. Therefore, I study those Scriptures more then the others. I do study the entire Bible in order to better understand God Plan for the Ages. Also, I can see ALL the attributes of God by studying the entire Bible.

BigD posted:

Paul2 responded:
   
BigD replies:
Please read my above two statements, and commit them to memory.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Much and Love The Lord!

      BigD,

    My last post was hard enough to format, now there are quotes answering quotes and questions on the quotes answering quotes with new questions...LOL!!!

    One step at a time. First let me deal with Daniel's 70th week.

Daniel 9:27: "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

     The part of the verse above in red IS the 70th week of Daniel. The week of the covenant with many IS Daniel's 70th week. The 7 year Great Tribulation Period takes place during Daniel's 70th week.

     The covenant is made for one week. The One week is Daniel's 70th week.
(one week =7 years= 2520 days=84 months)

    The making of the covenant begins the 70th week. In blue above we learn that"and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease"

     The covenant maker (Antichrist) will make a covenant with Israel that WILL begin the 70th week. We are told that in the middle of the week the Antichrist would stop the daily sacrifice. This will occur at the middle of the 7 year "week".

     Antichrist makes the covenant between Israel and many nations. The day this 7 year covenant is made, the 70th week of Daniel begins. The Great Tribulation Period takes place during the 70th week of Daniel.

     Antichrist will stop the daily sacrifice at the middle of Daniel's 70th week, exactly 1260 days after he (Antichrist) made the covenant for "one week", which is the 70th week of Daniel which the covenant started.

     Antichrist will go to a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem and stop the reinstated daily sacrifice exactly 1260 days after he made the covenant which began the 70th week. There is no starting and stopping of Daniel's 70th week. Once it begins there are 2520 days until the Second Coming of Christ to establish His Kingdom and end the 42 month (final 42 months =3 1/2 years of the 70th week) reign of the Antichrist.

     From the making of the covenant which begins the 70th week, to the Antichrist stopping the daily sacrifice at the "Midweek" there are exactly 1260 days.

    From the Midweek when the Antichrist stops the daily sacrifice and receives 42 months of authority to the Second Coming of Christ and the end of the 70th week of Daniel there are exactly 1260 days.

One Week
Covenant- Begins 70th week-Antichrist begins the 70th
                   week of Daniel by making a covenant between
                   Israel and many nations. The 70th week is the
                   covenant week=2520 days=84 months=7 years

1260 days later...

Midweek- Antichrist stops sacrifice and receives power
              for 42 months.

1260 days later...

End of 70th Week- Second Coming of Christ, Antichrist
                          thrown into the Lake of Fire,
                          resurrection of the Old Testament and
                          Tribulation Saints.

       Above is an outline of a few events that will take place during the 70th week of Daniel. There is no time gap in the 70th week of Daniel. The 70th week is exactly 2520 consecutive days long. There are 1260 days from the beginning of the 70th week to the midweek and there are exactly 1260 days from the midweek to the end of the 70th week. The Great Tribulation Period will begin during the 70th week of Daniel.

      There are a few events we missed on my above outline and I'll add them now...
One Week
Covenant- Begins 70th week-Antichrist begins the 70th
                   week of Daniel by making a covenant between
                   Israel and many nations. The 70th week is the
                   covenant week=2520 days=84 months=7 years
                   The two witnesses of Revaltion 11 begin their
                   1260 days of prophecizing, the whole world
                   watches these two prophets bring plaques to
                   the earth and stop the rain during their 1260
                   days of witnessing.

1260 days later...

Midweek- Antichrist stops sacrifice and receives power
              for 42 months. Antichrist kills the two witnesses of
              Revelation 11, ending their 1260 days of prophecy
              which began when the covenant starting the 70th
              week of Daniel was made.

1260 days later...

End of 70th Week- Second Coming of Christ, Antichrist
                          thrown into the Lake of Fire,
                          resurrection of the Old Testament and
                          Tribulation Saints.

     Daniels 70th week can not start and stop, it must be contiunuous. If the two witnesses are not in Jerusalem prophecizing then the 70th week of Daniel has not begun.

    The Two witnesses of Revelation 11 make it impossible for the 70th week to have been started and then paused. They arrive the very day the covenant is made which is the beginning of their 1260 days for prophecizing, the first half of Daniel's 70th week. They are killed at the midweek exactly 1260 days later. These events have never happened because Daniel's 70th week has not yet begun. It did not start and then stop. The whole world will SEE with their own eyes the two witnesses refused burial and See their dead bodies lie in the street of Jerusalem just like how the world is watching the Popes body lying in state on television.

                                                       Paul2 8)

OK you told me again what you believe about the 70th week of Daniel, so lets get on with the rest.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

     BigD,

    "So lets get on with the rest"??? Are you kidding me???

      Get on with the rest of what??? I just showed you that Daniel's 70th week can not have started yet. You just ignored everything I wrote again.

      How can I continue when you won't acknowledge what I just showed you? I "rest" my case because I have proven you wrong with Scripture.

     Revelation 11:1-13 proves you wrong about Daniel's 70th week. You totally ignored my whole post. You gave me a sort of "ya, ya ,ya, I know what you said but I'll just ignore it..."

    You can't just ignore it. It won't go away. I just proved you wrong. Daniel's 70th week can not be started and stopped and then restarted. You are Wrong. Daniels 70th week goes for exactly 2520 literal un-interrupted days, from the start of the ONE WEEK COVENANT to the end of the One week will be 2520 days. The Two witnesses make it impossible for there to be a pause once the 70th week has started. Their ministry starts at the beginning of the week and lasts a literal 1260 days until they are killed by the Antichrist at the Midweek. No place for any time gap in their ministry at all.

     Your theory just clearly contradicted Scripture, Scripture clearly proves that there is no time gap or pause once the 70th "WEEK" of Daniel begins with the "covenant made with many for one week". The Two witnesses begin their ministry at the beggining of the 70th week and history does not record them because the 70th week, the whole 70th week is yet in the future and has not yet started.

     Until you address the fact that the two witnesses make your interpretation impossible, theres nothing more for me to say, I've proven my point and proven Scripture does not support your interpretation.

     I've seen you do the same thing with many people. You say "show me" and then just ignore what your shown. I have better things to do with my time than to beat a "Dead Horse" interpretation. Thats what I call interpretations that I have proven wrong over and over. Its like beating a dead horse, theres no sense in continuing, when its dead its dead.

    Thats what your interpretation is: Its a "dead horse" interpretation that was "just beaten" and is a dead end interpretation. Your own interpretation just contradicted itself. Scripture makes your interpretation impossible.

    I've made my point and everybody can see it. Anybody that reads my study on Revelation 11:1-13 found on my
"understanding the Book of Revelation" thread and reads these debates knows I have proven your interpretation wrong.

   Your interpretation conflicts with itself and with Scripture.

    No need for me to continue any further, Scripture itself proves you wrong. The only choice now is to accept that your wrong, which I would suggest, or to radically alter the true interpretation of all Scriptures which prove your interpretation wrong, which I would advise against.

     Whats your next move? Are you going to come up with an incorrect interpretation of Revelation 11:1-13 to explain your incorrect understanding of Daniel's 70th week?

      I can give you several incorrect interpretations of Revelation 11:1-13 by several so called "smart great teachers". This is the road that incorrect interpretations take you down. You find yourself having to ignore more and more verses of Scripture, and radically change the literal interpretation for allegorical interpretations, to make them fit the incorrect interpretation you are holding on to.

    Matthew Henry's Commentary is totally wrong, you might want to try that one to fit your incorrect interpretation. I'm joking of course. I would never really send someone to read something I know to be false. Just making a point.

     You said you liked "better" studies than mine. You seem to prefer studies that are false and incorrect. I know that I'm not the best teacher but I'm not trying to be the best teacher. I'm trying to do a study that people can follow and understand without boring them to tears. The study I'm doing is long enough without getting into every single minor detail that would take 1000 pages to present and to read.

     I'm trying to present the Book of Revelation in an understandable way, not in a technical way. What good does an ultra complex commentary do, if nobody can understand it or if its so boring nobody will bother reading it?

    I'll work on my study of the Book of Revelation while you try to figure out how Daniel's 70th week, and the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11, just destroyed your "Dead Horse" Interpretation. Hope you "see" and "accept" the truth one of these days.

                                                               Paul2 8)
       

Paul2:
Sometime ago I expressed my views on Acts 2:15-20 concering the the Tribulation starting at Pentecost.

Bronzesnake wanted to discuss 70th week Daniel and the book of the Revelation. Being it has been a couple of years since we went through the entire book of the Revelation verse by verse, everything studied is no longer fresh in my mind. (It took us about to years in the study.) Therefore, before I would discuss the book, I would again have to go back and do an indepth study. I was not prepared to do it then, and I am not prepared to do it now.

From what I have read of you writings on the book of the Revelation, I do know that there will be several things that we will disagree on.

You in no way have proven me wrong as to my beliefs concerning Acts 2:15-20. I do not have to understand the book of the Revelation to understand the book of Acts.

IMHO where you and I differ in understanding the Bible is that I see that this dispensation of Grace as a ("parenthetical") period within the dispensation of the Law, and the Chruch, the Body of Christ, not included in the writings of the book of the Revelation, and you still want to place the Chruch, the Body of Christ in the book of the Revelation.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I do believe that you probably believe that the Chruch, the Body of Christ, is the "Bride of Christ," whereas I don't.

Peter, James and John were disciples of Jesus and preached, as commanded by Jesus, "the gospel of the kingdom." Those that were saved under their ministry will go into the earthly kingdom. At the time they preached it the LAW was in effect.

Paul preached "the gospel of the grace of God." Those saved under his preaching will enter a heavenly kingdom, not and earthly one. The Law was not in effect during his preaching. Believer that were/are saved under the preaching of the gospel of the grace of God will be raptured to heaven, "to ever be with the Lord," prior to the resumption of the Tribulation. Therefore there is no need for John to write to them concerning the Tribulation.  Even Paul, in 1Thess.5:1 says to those believers (members of the Body of Christ): "But of the times and the seasons (of the Tribulation) ye have no need that I write unto you." So, If Paul doesn't think it necessary to write the members of the Body of Christ about the Tribulation, Why would John need to write to them?

James, Cephas (Peter), and John agree with Paul, in Galations 2:9 that they would stay with the circumcision (Jews saved during the preaching of the gospel of the kingdom). All the letters that they wrote, shown in the Bible after the book of Hebrews, were written to those Jews that they agreed with Paul to stay with. They are not written to members of the Body of Christ.

Does that mean that we are to forget those book and not study them? NO, NO, NO!!! ALL Scripture is for our learning. By studying ALL Scripture we learn God's Plan for the Ages, and His will in our lives.

As a dispensationalist I study the Laws of Moses, but I don't offer animal sacrifices to cover/atone for my sins. Do I have to know all the details of those laws in order to prefect my Christian walk? NO! But by studying them I can see the attributes of God and the demonstration of His grace.

Do I have to understand every detail of the 70th week of Daniel to have a proper Christian walk. I don't think so. However, I do have a good understanding of the Book of the Revelation, and a pretty good knowledge of what will happen then. However, I don't have every detail "at my finger tips."

I commend you for your continual study of the book of the Revelation. My "thrist" is for knowledge for my Christian walk today, whereas yours appears to be in the Tribulation period. I am not saying that is wrong. You apparently have the time to do it. I don't.

I will leave it up to you if you still want to have further dialogue with me. Just don't expect a detailed discussion about the 70th week of Daniel.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

      BigD,

    I don't have time for a long post so I'll just say this.

    My primary goal is for people to believe in Christ and be Raptured before the Great Tribulation begins. It was the study of prophecy that totally convinced me that the Bible is the truth.

    The book of Revelation is one of the least studied book of the Bible. Perhaps if people know what is coming, they will be more inclined to seek the relationship with Christ as Lord and Savior. Prpohecy had that effect on me years ago. I have seen it have that effect on my friends who took the time to study prophecy with me. I've seen atheists change their minds, because the evidence in prophecy made them realize that there must be a God.

   If by teaching the book of Revelation I can motivate one person to find Salvation then it was worth the time. Perhaps it will motivate some to take the time and reach out to others. If people see what will take place after the Rapture of the Church it might motivate them to share the Gospel with people around them now before it becomes to late.

                                                      Paul2 8)
   
   
   
   

   

Paul2:
I admire the way you are using your knowledge of the book of the Revelation to win others to Christ. It appears to be effective for you. God's word is not coming back void.

Myself, I prefer to present "the gospel of the grace of God" as revealed to the Apostle Paul. That doesn't mean that I never speak of the Tribulation that is to come, or if one dies prior to the Tribulation and what the future holds in store for them then. I also bring up TIMES PAST" as to how thing were under the Law. ALL]/b] of God's Word can be used to lead others to Christ.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!