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Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.  

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:  

Rom 11:27 For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.  

 Gen 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.  

Gen 17:8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.  

 These verses clearly describe a promise that God made with the Jews. Some of us believe God has broken that promise.

 Here's the question...

 If God has broken that promise - for whatever reason - then what makes us so sure He won't break His promise to us?

 Bronzesnake

 AMEN SILVER!!!

 You just made my point! I was waiting for someone to respond to this, however, I doubt that the few folks here who don't believe God will keep His promise to the Jews will be able to answer this question.

Thank you Silver.

Bronzesnake

ok you want me here, and I'm here  :D


Blind for a time and a purpose. The jews were blind for a reason. We are the reason. But follow me to Acts where I can clearly show you the blinders must come off.


 11Now as the lame man who was healed held on to Peter and John, all the people ran together to them in the porch which is called Solomon's, greatly amazed. 12So when Peter saw it, he responded to the people: "Men of Israel, why do you marvel at this? Or why look so intently at us, as though by our own power or godliness we had made this man walk? 13The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified His Servant Jesus, whom you delivered up and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let Him go. 14But you denied the Holy One and the Just, and asked for a murderer to be granted to you, 15and killed the Prince of life, whom God raised from the dead, of which we are witnesses. 16And His name, through faith in His name, has made this man strong, whom you see and know. Yes, the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.
    17"Yet now, brethren, I know that you did it in ignorance, as did also your rulers. 18But those things which God foretold by the mouth of all His prophets, that the Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. 19Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, 20and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before,[a] 21whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began. 22For Moses truly said to the fathers, "The LORD your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. 23And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.' 24Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have also foretold[c] these days. 25You are sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, "And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.'[d] 26To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities."

Acts 3:11-26 (New King James Version)
Vearse 17 and 18 are very important. It says you were blind and I understand, but now you must see so that you may be saved!

Hello Lisa my sister.


 You didn't really answer the question my sister.

 If God has broken that promise - for whatever reason - then what makes us so sure He won't break His promise to us?

Look at the verse you posted lisa. I will hilite  some things which you may have missed.

 17"Yet now, brethren, I know that you did it in ignorance, as did also your rulers. 18But those things which God foretold by the mouth of all His prophets, that the Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled.

 This verse described the fullment of the crucifixion. Jews who accepted Jesus will be Raptured out of the seven year Tribulation. The Jews who rejected Jesus because God had "blinded" them for His purpose - will remain "blinded" until the fullfillment of the Gentiles. That happens when Jesus returns, and ALL ISRAEL will be forgiven and saved. The verse you posted corroborates this Lisa. Look at the last few lines in that verse.


 25You (Jews) are sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, "And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.'[d] 26 To you (JEWS) first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you (JEWS), in turning away every one of you from your iniquities."

 So, I ask you again...
If God has broken that promise - for whatever reason - then what makes us so sure He won't break His promise to us?

 Bronzesnake

I have been debating with myself as to whether I should or should not get involved with this "conversation". I still am not sure that I want to go full blown on the subject but I will say this much. God does keep ALL of his promises.

It is in Romans where we are told that "all Israel will be saved". It is also in Romans where we are told, "For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel".

We must also take another portion of Romans into account where we are told, " Rom 2:28  For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29  But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. "

 Yes Pastor Roger, you make some good points. So I will modify my assertion.

 Those who God knows as "Jews" will ALL be forgiven and saved. That includes those who He blinded until the fullfillment of the Gentiles.

 Is this middle ground?

Bronzesnake

Gen 17:14

14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.
KJV

Jer 11:10

10 They are turned back to the iniquities of their forefathers, which refused to hear my words; and they went after other gods to serve them: the house of Israel and the house of Judah have broken my covenant which I made with their fathers.
KJV


God doesn't break His covenant man does.

I read all of these posts, And I cannot see how God has broken his promise. Maybe its me, but I don't know. PLease fill me in on how he broke his promise.  

God has not broken his promise in keeping th covenant or in anything els. As Reba showed with the verses that she quoted it is man that has broken that covenant not God.

 Amen Pastor Roger.
I'm glad you pointed that out, because I don't want Reba to think I go against everything she posts.
Men brake promises - God does not.

Joshua  quote...

 The qeustion is rhetorical my friend. God does not - and will not brake any promises He has made. The reason I started this thread was to point that out. As you cab see, some folks post verses such as...

 10 They are turned back to the iniquities of their forefathers, which refused to hear my words; and they went after other gods to serve them: the house of Israel and the house of Judah have broken my covenant which I made with their fathers.

 in order to "prove" that the Old Covenant has been broken by God. It is not God who has broken His promise - He will keep it - it was men who didn't keep their end of the bargan. Is God equal with men that He should break His promises also?...
I think not.

Bronzesnake

Bronze you have to be kidding me!!! All this time and now you say "So I will modify my assertion.

Those who God knows as "Jews" will ALL be forgiven and saved"

This is what I was trying to say the whole time!!!!! There are jews that GOD has chosen!!! The are Jews inwardly like the scriptures says. And they have believed!! Look at acts. Acts proves that all jews are not still blind. Because if that were the case they would not had been asking "What must we do?"
They would still be bumping into walls due to their blindness.

I'm so glad you found your common ground!! I was not goona let you go ;D

 Whoa! Hold the parade my sister!  :D

My point is that just because a person says he's Jewish doesn't make him a Jew. Only God can know for certain. There are many Gentiles who are circumcised - they are not Jews - there are many folks who blow from one religion to another, searching for the one that fits their needs it's a certainty that many of these people have converted to Judaism - they would not be considered Jews - being Jewish is a decendancy - not a choice.

 That was my assertion.

Sorry to get you all sweaty and stuff!  :D

Bronzesnake

God has not broken his promise in keeping th covenant or in anything els. As Reba showed with the verses that she quoted it is man that has broken that covenant not God.

 
I dont understand Bronze.

Reba...you don't understand???

 I though we were debating on opposite sides of this "Jews and the promise" thing Reba? Did you post that verse to make my point?

Bronzesnake

I posted those verses to plainly show mans breaks God's covenant God doesn't just like Pastor Roger said.

OK Reba. Then why have we been arguing about verses which plainly state God made an everlasting promise to the Jews in which they would all be saved?

I am confused here my sister.

Bronzesnake

Again and again Bronze the scripture  we were discussing says ALL ISRAEL will be saved it does not say ALL JEWS, correct? Do you read my post or just scan them? Below are a few translations in everyone the verse is written to say 'all Israel. I trust God trust His Word and in this case His words are ALL ISRAEL yours are ALL JEWS.

Rom 11:26

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
KJV

and so all Israel will be saved. Even as it is written, "There will come out of Zion the Deliverer, and he will turn away ungodliness from Jacob. WEB

and so all Israel shall be saved: even as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer; He shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: ASV

And so all Israel will get salvation: as it is said in the holy Writings, There will come out of Zion the One who makes free; by him wrongdoing will be taken away from Jacob: BBE

and so all Israel shall be saved. According as it is written, The deliverer shall come out of Zion; he shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob. DBY

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: KJV

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: WBS

and so all Israel will be saved. As is declared in Scripture, "From Mount Zion a Deliverer will come: He will remove all ungodliness from Jacob; WEY

and so all Israel shall be saved, according as it hath been written, 'There shall come forth out of Sion he who is delivering, and he shall turn away impiety from Jacob, YLT  

Reba.

What do you think "Israel" means in the context of the verses from which we are debating?,  Is it the actual land, or the people? If you agree that it's the people, then who does the term "Israel" include? Does it include ALL Israel - or just a portion of Israel?

Bronzesnake

OK now I am thouroghly confused. If God didn't break his promise then why would we not be able to trust God?

Rom 9:6

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
KJV

Rom 11:26

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
KJV


G2474
Ἰσραήλ
Israēl
is-rah-ale'
Of Hebrew origin [H3478]; Israel (that is, Jisrael), the adopted name of Jacob, including his descendants (literally or figuratively): - Israel.


 I find the word Israel to be the same (Strongs # 2474) in both these scriptures. I accept Strongs definition as I am no scholar of Greek or Hebrew.  Or as most here know English  :P

 I think we both have different ideas of what the following verse means...

 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
KJV

 I think it is saying that just because you are born in Israel doesn't make you a Jew - For example: a person of Iranian descent could be born there - the verse is making a point that JEWS only are included in the first covenant.

Therefore, it makes sense to say tha the statement "All Israel" does not mean all people born in Israel - it means all Jews.

Bronzesnake

Sorry the for the ^^*&T&(%^^%$ i didn't see that.

Well Strongs uses the same meaning for the same word in the two scriptures. Seems in verse Rom 9:6 you choose to use the word Israel to mean the land, and in verse 11:26 you use it to be the people. I will go with Strongs defination which makes itthe same meaning in both verses.

 That's not true Reba. Read the verse it uses the word Israel in two contexts.

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:  

Notice the noun "they" in this verse. A country can not be identified as "they" only people are identified in this manner.

 With that piece of information, this verse is easily understood. Here's the meaning of the two Israels.

 Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Jewish, which are from Israel:  

 How can you intpret this verse any other way Reba.
This isn't that difficult to understand my friend. We must take things in context otherwise we can be seriously confused.

Bronzesnake

Another thing to think of here. The lineage of Ishmael are also "of Israel". This is why the following verse amplifies this by saying "Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children:"

We also must consider the verse following that:

Rom 9:8  That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.


(I had to come back and modify this post. Boy did I mess it up the first time around. Sorry)


 

Rom 9:6  (1161) Not3756 as though3754, (3634) the3588 word3056 of God2316 hath taken none effect.1601 For1063 they3778 are not3756 all3956 Israel,2474 which3588 are of1537 Israel:2474

Rom 11:26  And2532 so3779 all3956 Israel2474 shall be saved:4982 as2531 it is written,1125 There shall come2240 out of1537 Zion4622 the3588 Deliverer,4506 and2532 shall turn away654 ungodliness763 from575 Jacob:2384


What is not true? I said Strongs uses the same meaning for the word Israel in both verses posted above are those verses from esword.

Ok, 1st i'll answer your question.  How can we trust GOD. I can trust Him because I believe in HIM and He is perfect without mistakes. I know He does not break HIS promises, and I never said He did. He has a plan and sometimes when you people look into the scriptures they see a and others see B. It is up to us to yeild to the Holy Spirit then for GOD's understanding.


I know one thing. Being a jew by blood in the day we are living in right now will not get you saved. Thats the bottom line. GOD promises that.

Bronzesnake posted:

BigD
I, for one, do not believe that God has broken "that promise" to Israel.

When "the fulnessness of the Gentiles be come in" (the rapture) (Rms11:25), "And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written..." (vs 26).

Paul is quoting from Isaiah 59:20, 21 "And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the Lord. And for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the Lord; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in my mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the Lord, from henceforth and for ever."

It appears to me that all those of Israel that "turn from transgression" will go into the kingdom that Christ will establish at His 2nd coming.

Also, Jeremiah 31:34 "And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they hall all know me from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

The promses of Genesis 17:7, 8 are still to be fulfilled. THEY WILL BE!

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

All Israel means all of the Jewish people who are currently living will all be saved it will be a Universal Salvation for the Jewish people when Christ comes and reveals His nailed scared hand to the Jewish Race.

Michael

Brothers and Sisters,

I simply consider ALL OF GOD'S PROMISES TO BE DONE AT HIS APPOINTED TIME.

We might not understand all of God's Promises, and we will have agreement and disagreement about what those promises are and what they mean. BUT, they will be or already have been done most completely and perfectly.

If there is any doubt, it will be in our interpretation and understanding. In terms of God's Promises, there is no doubt at all. I know there would be great joy if Christians completely understood exactly what things will be like for us 1,000 years from now and for eternity with JESUS. BUT, all we can do right now in this life is use the descriptions of the Holy Bible and our imaginations about what it will be like. Almighty God told us in HIS WORD that our imagination is insufficient to realize what HE has prepared for us who love HIM. That's more than enough for me. It is HIS PROMISES that are the absolute reality of the hope within my heart.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 10:9-10 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.