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I've noticed alot of people sticking up for religions and beliefes
that are not of CHRIST. Defending them and saying that they are not evil.
But in fact they are because if your Father is not GOD then your father is satan. It just that plan.
So that goes for cults, muslims, jews, mother nature worshipers, etc.


Can I get an amen?

It's interesting that a lot of people will stick up for religions and beliefs that are not of Christ. It seems they are prideful about their beliefs and will brag about it all over the place, to make themselves known and for self righteous purposes. Now i'm not saying Christians should do this...however, we win souls with humility and we claim a relationship with a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ. No other religion in the world can claim this. So you get an Amen!

Joshua

Hello my friend. Sorry, I can't give you an Amen on this one. Sorry, but this time you are wrong my friend.

 With all respect, I must say that I am absolutely astounded at the ignorance concerning the Jews. It's almost at the point of arrogance. I'm not attacking anyone personally here, but I think this is an important topic. The Jews are not evil my friend.

 I am equally astounded that there doesn't seem to be any other Christian here who understands the unbreakable relationship between God, the Jews and Christians. I will go even further - if not for the Jew, then we as Christians would have no salvation - this is not my opinion alone - it comes straight from scriptures (Rom 11:11), as you will hopefully read from the verses I have posted below.

Please carefully read the following scriptures.

Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, [of] the tribe of Benjamin.  

Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,  

Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.  

Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to [the image of] Baal.  

Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.  

Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.  

Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded  

Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.  

Rom 11:9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:  

Rom 11:10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.  

Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but [rather] through their fall salvation [is come] unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.  

Rom 11:12 Now if the fall of them [be] the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?  

Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:  

Rom 11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation [them which are] my flesh, and might save some of them.  

Rom 11:15 For if the casting away of them [be] the reconciling of the world, what [shall] the receiving [of them be], but life from the dead?  

Rom 11:16 For if the firstfruit [be] holy, the lump [is] also [holy]: and if the root [be] holy, so [are] the branches.  

Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;  

Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.  

Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.  

Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:  

Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also spare not thee.  

Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.  

Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.  

Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural [branches], be graffed into their own olive tree?  

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.  

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:  

Rom 11:27 For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.  

Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, [they are] enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, [they are] beloved for the fathers' sakes.  

Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God [are] without repentance.  

Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:  

Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.  

Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.  

Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his judgments, and his ways past finding out!  

Rom 11:34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?  

Rom 11:35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?  

Rom 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, [are] all things: to whom [be] glory for ever. Amen.

 Bronzesnake

JESUS CALLED THE JEWS EVIL MY FRIEND NOT ME.
I DON'T NEED TO SAY ANYTHING ELSE BECAUSE JESUS SAID IT ALL.
Matthew 7:21-23 (Contemporary English Version)

A Warning
   
(Luke 13.26,27)
   21Not everyone who calls me their Lord will get into the kingdom of heaven. Only the ones who obey my Father in heaven will get in. 22On the day of judgment many will call me their Lord. They will say, "We preached in your name, and in your name we forced out demons and worked many miracles." 23But I will tell them, "I will have nothing to do with you! Get out of my sight, you evil people!"
   
Matthew 12:33-34 (New King James Version)


 

A Tree Known by Its Fruit
    (A) 33"Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or else make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for a tree is known by its fruit. 34Brood of vipers! How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.

 How do you attribute those verses to the Jews? Jesus never called the "Jews" evil my friend. Did you even bother to read the verses I posted?

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:  

Rom 11:27 For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.  

If you don't believe these verses, then God is either a liar, or He was mistaken. I don't believe either of those explanations.

 Look my friend. I know it's hard to determine a persons attitude through reading a post. I want to assure you that I am not trying to come across as beligerant in any way. I am simply being honest and as straight forward as I can be.

 God made a special covenant with the Jews. He will keep that promise. Do the Jews need to accept Jesus? YES! can they get saved without Jesus? NO! will they accept Jesus? YES! how do we know they will? God says they will all be saved... all Israel shall be saved

 The Jews are not evil - they are sinners, but aren't we all sinners? If the Jews are evil, then we are all evil. If not for the "blindness" of the Jews, you would be condemned to Hell and the Lake of Fire...did you know that? It is in the scriptures my friend. So if the Jews are evil, then your salvation is attributed to satan.

Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but [rather] through their fall salvation [is come] unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.  
Can't you grasp this verse my friend? Have they stumbled so they should fall? NO!  because they stumbled, salvation has come to you and me!!

Rom 11:12 Now if the fall of them [be] the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?  
Do you understand what this verse is telling us?
If their "fall" causes salvation to the Gentile - if their "diminishing" brings light to us Gentiles, then how much more will their reward be?

Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
This verse is self evident.
 

 I don't know how much clearer it can possibly be.

Bronzesnake

Galatians 1:6-10 (Contemporary English Version)


The Only True Message
   6I am shocked that you have so quickly turned from God, who chose you because of his wonderful kindness. [a] You have believed another message, 7when there is really only one true message. But some people are causing you trouble and want to make you turn away from the good news about Christ. 8I pray that God will punish anyone who preaches anything different from our message to you! It doesn't matter if that person is one of us or an angel from heaven. 9I have said it before, and I will say it again. I hope God will punish anyone who preaches anything different from what you have already believed. 10I am not trying to please people. I want to please God. Do you think I am trying to please people? If I were doing that, I would not be a servant of Christ.
   

IF THE JEW IS NOT REJECTING GOD TODAY THEN PLEASE JUST BREAK THIS SCRIPTURE DOWN FOR ME. BECAUSE I AM TALKING ABOUT TODAY. IF A JEW DIES TODAY WITHOUT EXCEPTING JESUS AND SAYING "IM A CRISTIAN" THEN THEY WILL GO TO HELL.

Galatians 2:13-21 (New King James Version)


 
13And the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrite with him, so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy.

    14But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you[a] compel Gentiles to live as Jews? 15We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

    17"But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! 18For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God. 20I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. 21I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain."

 What makes you think that scripture is aimed at the Jews? Remember, Paul is the apostle of the Gentiles - he was speaking to the Gentiles, not the Jews.

There were many false teachings in those days, as there were in the days of Moses. Remember what the Jews did when Moses went up the mountain for fourty days? They made  idols of false gods.

 Sometimes we as Christians mistakingly seperate God and Jesus, even though we know Jesus is God - but He is still the same God of the Old Testament - He is still the same God who made an everlasting covenant with the Jews - God keeps His promises. Jesus addressed this when He said He had not come to destroy the old covenant, but that He had come to fulfill it.

 We can not discard God's Word - whether it's Old Testament or New. Yes, we must understand there is a new covenant - a fulfilling of the Old Covenant - buy how can we say that anything from God is evil? The Old Testament came from God - Jesus is God. God made an everlasting covenant with the Jews - Therefore, Jesus made an everlasting covenant with the Jews. God says the Jews will ALL be saved - He didn't say "some" of the Jews will be saved - He clearly says "all" of the Jews will be saved. Why don't you believe this?

 We can pick out many verses and take them out of context to show "none" are saved without Jesus, in order to "prove" the Jews are "evil" but we must remember that Jesus is the same God that said ALL THE JEWS WILL BE SAVED.

 Do you believe Jesus when He says this or not?

Take care my friend.
The items you make are awsome! It shows how much you really love Jesus.

Bronzesnake

QUOTE: "The Jews are not evil - they are sinners, but aren't we all sinners? If the Jews are evil, then we are all evil. If not for the "blindness" of the Jews, you would be condemned to Hell and the Lake of Fire...did you know that? It is in the scriptures my friend. So if the Jews are evil, then your salvation is attributed to satan."

lOOK i WILL TELL YOU THIS, i AM NO GOOD AND THERE IS NO GOOD IN ME EXCEPT CHRIST THAT LIVES IN ME. TAKE CHRIST AWAY AND I AM EVIL. SIN IS EVIL. AND IF I AM ALONE A SINNER AND NOT A SINNER SAVED BY GRACE, YO I AM EVIL.
I AM NOT SAYING GOD WILL BREAK HIS PROMISE, I KNOW HE WON'T. WHAT I AM SAYING THAT THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN JEW AND GENTILE TODAY. WE ALL MUST COME TO CHRIST. THE TRUE JEWISH PEOPLE ARE STILL WAITING FOR THE MESSIAH RIGHT NOW TO COME WHEN HE HAS ALREADY CAME. IF THEY DIE TODAY THE WILL HAVE NO SAVIOR AND GO TO HELL. WHEN I READ ROMANS I KNOW THAT GOD HAS MADE A WAY FOR US AND I DO NOT THANK THE JEWS FOR REJECTING JESUS, THEY DID NOT TAKE HIS LIFE HE GAVE IT UP. THEY DO NOT GET ANY CREDIT FOR MY SALVATION. GOD MADE A WAY THROUGH THEM FOR ME AND I PRAISE HIM.
IN THE END THEY WILL BOW AND CONFESS JESUS IS LORD. BUT THE JEWISH OF TODAY HOLD TO THE LAW STILL. nOW THAT IS NOT TO SAY 100% OF THEM BECAUSE THERE ARE SOME THAT BELIEVE IN JESUS SO THEY ARE ONLY JEW BY BIRTH BUT CHRISTIAN BY FAITH.

ALL I'M SAYING IS YOU ARE EITHER FOR GOD RIGHT NOW OR AGAINST HIM. RIGHT NOW. TODAY. THATS MY WHOLE POINT.
CHRIST IN US MAKES US NOT EVIL IN GODS SIGHT.

thank you for the compliment.
but when you say all you can't just say all jews will besaved because in this day (please don't forget this is what I am stressing) all jews are not dieing with Jesus in their heart.
So those some are not in that all. Do you agree with that?
You are speaking of when Christ comes back again. I'm not talking about then.
When Christ comes back after believers are caught up there will be jews down here like
"YOOOOOOOOOOOO, it's true!!! Jesus you are GOD. OH wow!!
We believe we believe!!!!"
Bam then they all will be saved!! YEAH!!!! See i do get it.

Great ppoint made Bronze. I'm with you on what you said. It's true, the Jews aren't completely cast aside.

Joshua

POINTS ARE TAKEN BUT THE MAIN POINT IS BEING MISSED.

JESUS CHRIST IS THE MAIN POINT FOLKS.
THATS ALL I'VE EVER WANTED TO SAY.

lol...we're well aware that Christ is the main point. The fact of the matter is, not all of the Jews will come to Christ. However, there will come a time when they as a nation will see Him as the Messiah...but until then, many more will die. It's a sad thing, but it'll happen. Just a few thoughts...and kinda chill on the caps please...my eyes have a hard time focusing between the caps and the lower case letters. God Bless

Joshua

 I would never disagree with that!  :D

I'm saying to you that ALL JEWS will be saved by Jesus. Not just some.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.  
 This verse tells us about a "mystery" and warns us not to be fooled and arrogant by thinking we know all the answers in regard to salvation - there is a "mystery" It goes on to explain the mystery. The Jews will be "blind" until the fulness of the Gentiles.
So, what is the "fulness of the Gentiles"? That's when Jesus returns! Well, what happens to the Jews when Jesus returns?
Read the next verse...

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:  
 All Israel shall be saved! Not just those who are alive at that time - ALL Israel. Jesus returns and wipes out ALL ungodliness from Jacob! The Jews will All BE REDEEMED!Why does God do this?
Read the next verse..

Rom 11:27 For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.  
 He does it because He promised the Jews He would!

This shouldn't upset us my friend. We should rejoice that we are included into their covenant - that in effect is the new covenant - with them - not apart, or seperate from them - partakers with the Jews.

 That doesn't change the fact that we all (Jews included) must accept Jesus in order to be saved. God's covenant with the Jews stated that ALL the Jews "will accept Jesus"

 These are not my promises Lisa. They were made by God. God will keep His promise.

 Bronzesnake

quote"I would never disagree with that!  

I'm saying to you that ALL JEWS will be saved by Jesus. Not just some."

it just seems to me that you want to be right and not see where I am coming from even though I keep telling you I'm not talking about in the future, I am speaking of today and at this moment.
What is the doctrine that a true jewish person lives by right now 2/16/05

 Lisa, my friend - my sister...let's not allow this "debate" to get away from us my sister. I'm not trying to be right - it's not my scriptures that I'm quoting from - these verses come straight from God my sister.

 Please allow me to go back a wee bit, and ask you to address these verses. First are two verses straight from the Old Testament.

 Gen 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.  

Lisa my sister in Jesus...what do you believe God is telling the Jews in this verse? Why does He specifically say "thee and thy seed after thee in their generations"  and then He says "for an everlasting covenant"
Do you believe this promise has somehow been canceled?

Gen 17:8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.  

 Remeber Lisa, God is telling the Jews this a couple of thousand years before Jesus came and died on the cross - and He is telling them that, not only will the Jews who are alive at the time He was making that promise, but all the generations of Jews to come after them. Why would God make such a promise if He wouldn't keep it?

 Do you agree that God made that promise to those Jews and all the future generations of Jews to come? Because that's exactly what He said..."thee and thy seed after thee in their generations"

Bronzesnake

Bronzesnake,

You are saying all Jews will be saved. What does all Jews mean? What makes a person a Jew. Birthplace, family blood line, relegion? What in your view makes a person a Jew?

You didn't tell me what the doctrine of the Jewish man was TODAY.
As of 2/16/05 what do jews believe?

Secondly you keep posting scriptures that I am fully aware of like that is the whole bible and GOD does not refer to the jews any where eslse in the bible.
When I posted the scriptures that refer to them, it seems you have ignored them or refused to study them to see what they have to do with the jews. Instead of just taking some time away from this board and studing to see if you may be a little in error, you just hold fast to you own interpatation of what GOD is saying and remain unteachable.


I still have love for you ;D

Check this out and try to feel where I'm coming from.


The was a jewish man dieing of cancer on 2/16/05 and the doctors said he would not probally make it through the night.
A Christian comes to his bed side and asked have you every accepted Jesus as God and saviour of your life. The man says no I was raised to belive the Messiah has not come. Jesus was just a man and not GOD. The Christian ask will you accept HIM now while you have time? They do not accept HIM because that would be against every thing they believe (have a conversation with a real jewish jew). He dies in the next second. Where is he going according to the Bible?

Just do me one favor before you respond to this.
Have a conversation with a true jew. And see what they believe.

Bronzesnake

Gen 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
Gen 17:9

9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
KJV

Gen 17:14

14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.KJV
Gen 18:19

19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.KJV


I see the covenant between God and Abe as conditional. I know you dont and we will not change each other minds :P


Rom 4:16

16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
KJV
Rom 9:8

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
KJV

Gal 3:29-4:1

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
KJV

Salvation is in the Cross, not in ones bood of natural birth, but in the shed blood of our Saviour Jesus Christ.
He is the salvation of the world. Repentance is at the Cross.


Rom 10:11-13

11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
KJV

Gal 3:28

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
KJV
Col 3:11

11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
KJV

Rom 2:28-29

28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
KJV

Lisa my sister. I can say the same thing to you - does that make you "unteachable" also? or are you above reproach?

You didn't respond to my question in my last post, so how can I begin to understand where you are coming from in relation to those verses?

Bronzesnake

Reba my friend.

If you don't know who Jews are, then I surely can not tell you.

Bronzesnake

Reeba...

 14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.KJV[/b]
Gen 18:19
Notice the wording in this verse Reeba... It says thou shall be cut off from his people for disobeying God. It does not say...thou (Jews) shall be cut off from God - because for that to happen, God would have to break His promise.

You do understand that being a Jew is more than simply being born in Israel...right? It's a lineage.

Maybe you can tell me what God is telling the Jews Reeba...
What do these verses mean?
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
 
Isn't Jesus telling us that He will take away all their sins in this and the next verse?

Rom 11:27 For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.  

This is not my "interpretation" if it says something different, please enlighten me sisters.

Bronzesnake

This is what I said "But in fact they are because if your Father is not GOD then your father is satan. It just that plan.
So that goes for cults, muslims, jews, mother nature worshipers, etc."
Judaism is a false god religion right now. Point blank.

Quote "
and Satan is not their father just because they haven’t received Jesus as their Messiah."
Welllll. Jesus is GOD. So if they haven't received then WHO"S THEIR DADDY?

Quote "Also, Jesus did not call the Jews evil in Luke 13:26-27 as you say He did.  Jesus was referring to ALL people who reject Him; all people groups will be standing at the Judgment Seat."
Who were the Pharisees if they weren't jews? See no one studied. Who knows everything? I don't. So can I be wrong about somethings, sure. But this I have done a great deal of studying on.
Also if you have a study Bible you will notice that indeed the passage I posted is referring to Judaism.
Quote"Also, the Galatians 1:6-10 passage that you used to defend your accusation against the Jews cannot hold water because Paul was speaking to the Gentiles only there."


The New King James Vesion Bible Thomas Nelson Publishers 1980.
"The Epistle of Paul The Apostle to the Galations
Occasion and Purpose: Legalists in the church , called JUDAIZERS, taught that certain Old Testament laws were still binding upon Christians. They reasoned that GOD's promises extended only to jews, and that Gentiles must be circumcised before they could fully experience salvation. "

I just want to make sure I address everthing that you have typed.Now please don't get upset at what I'm about to say because that is not where I'm coming from.
I wonder if you read the Bible how you read peoples post because I never said the jews were in a cult.

Your Quote"Mrs. Chosen, your first post here to begin this debate thread was that the Jews are a cult categorized with other cults, and that Jews have Satan as their father, just as the other cults.  This is very wrong and is very bad to say.'
I never said that. Take a look back and read slowly. I gave a list of Non Christians, and Anti Christ people. Same thing yes.
GOS said either ya with HIM or you not. I didn;t say this GOD did. GOD is Jesus. Now like I said talk to a jew then come holla at me. My husband studies jews because where he works is at a golf club that they all come to. He talks to these men on daily basis as I have also. They are rejecting Christ as of TODAY!!!!! Can someone say today with me???
 :D

CAN i GET SOME HELP ON THIS TOPIC?
WHO ELSE IS WITH ME?

Mrs. Chosen,

I didn't read all of the posts so I just have a quick comment.  The Jews believe in the God of the bible but they don't believe that Jesus Christ is the Messiah.  They're still waiting for Messiah.

No, they aren't a cult.

Grace and peace,
cris

lest see if I can type this in your language...
I DIDN'T SAY JEWS WERE A CULT!!!!! HELLO

WHATS THE MATTER? I KNOW I'M A LITTLE GHETTO BUT I'M SPEAKING VERY PLAINLY HERE ;D.

QUOTE: "The Jews believe in the God of the bible but they don't believe that Jesus Christ is the Messiah.  They're still waiting for Messiah."
JESUS SAID IAM. WE KNOW I AM IS GOD RIGHT. SO IF THEY DON'T BELIEVE...
WHAT ARE WE MISSING? i WANT TO SOULD LOVING BUT IT'S LIKE YOU GUYS ARE MAKING ME BE STERN.
Study to show yourself. Yall keep saying the jews don't believe in Jesus like it's no big deal. Yo, they don't know HIM so they don't know the TRUE GOD of THE Bible. When GOD came down they said "YOU ARE NOT GOD"
So until the confess him as GOD, they won't be getting in!
Now like I said, go and talk to a jew that holds to their doctrine, (noticed I said doctrine and not cult). Then come back and tell me how they can make it to heaven if they die today without Jesus.
Thats all.

OK bronze i asked for your view but you do not wish to answer. I am sorry you refuse.

Reba how can Bronze tell you what makes a jew a jew?
That would require him to study. But it's true. Not being mean. We all gotta study!!!

But broze Reba didn't ask you who were the jews or where did they come from. She said what makes a person a jew?
Because of their parents or their heart. Listen... ;)

 My dear Reeba.

I did answer you - you just didn't like the answer. :D

You, on the other hand, did not answer my questions.

Bronzesnake

 Your post is very ironic Lisa!  :D You never answered my questions either my friend. But then again, I understand why you couldn't answer me. You must have studied and realised I was right! so you were too ashamed to admit it  :D

Seriously though, you really should study more because you are somewhat confused my sister. You contradict yourself.

First you said this...
 This is what I said "But in fact they are because if your Father is not GOD then your father is satan. It just that plan.
So that goes for cults, muslims, jews, mother nature worshipers, etc."
Judaism is a false god religion right now. Point blank.

Then you said this...
lest see if I can type this in your language...
I DIDN'T SAY JEWS WERE A CULT!!!!! HELLO

 Now I know you don't like answering questions, but perhaps you can define what a "false god religion" is? If that isn't a cult, then there are no cults.

Also, perhaps you could explain exactly which "false god" is the God of the Old Testament.

My sister, you are seriously confused, and in great need of a Bible believing pastor to help you through these things.

Oh, not being mean.  ;)

I doubt we'll be engaging in any meaningful dialogue from here on in. I sense a drastic turn for the worst in your response to this post, so I'll call it a day.

still love ya as a sister in Jesus though!

 Bronzesnake

*Sarcastically* very tactful Bronze, very tactful...lol just when it was getting good too...lol.

Joshua

My guess would be if we all got our kids to marry an Israelie person then we wouldn't ever have to worrry about our grandchildrens salvation!

lol...just being married to a Jew won't save a person.

Joshua

No silly the grandkids would be Jewish and therefore they would be saved.

Listen,
I am only gonna say this one more time.
Talk to a true jew, ask them what they believe in right now!!!
Ask them do the think Jesus was the same GOD that was there before they even came to be. They will say no.
When Jesus came he told everyone that before Abraham was
I AM. So if you don't know that GOD is Jesus, you don't know GOD.

 I probably shouldn't keep responding to this, as you really are confused on the subject my sister...but  :(

 What is a "true Jew"?

Bronzesnake

Apparent Failure of the promises to ISRAEL explained by their unbelief

Brethren, my heart's desire and my prayer to GOD for them is for their salvation.
For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for GOD, but not in accordance with knowledge. For not knowing about GODs righteousness, and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of GOD. For CHRIST is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

and for the record I didn't say the jews are a cult.
I said if your Father is not the True GOD (FatherJesusHolySpirit) then you father is satan.
who can argue with that stament.
i posted a senario up but no one said one word about it.
It's like =she's ignorant= I don't need to read all that=
But I said if a jew dies today with out receiving the Messiah where will they spend eternity?
Or do you not think that jews have died not accepting in Jesus.

You listed them among cults...which lead us to believe that you were classifying them as a cult. That's where I think it went wrong.

Joshua

ok. I have to word my words a little better and be more clear.
But man, boy oh boy!! :(
It's like when I said hey wait a second I didn't say that, it's like yes you did. I can't deny anything when everything is written. That would mean I was tripping!!
Some misunderstood me.

Thanks for seeing that I can be misunderstood.

Joshua,
 You are a student of the scripture....Posted below are just a few verses of the "little books of John" maybe when you have some time you will read the books again and answer the questions I ask?

2 John 9-11

9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
KJV

Do you accept the verses as written?
Does the Jewish releigon have Christ?
Does it abide in the doctrine of Christ?

Please explane your view of the "little books of John".

 First of all my sister, would you answer a question for me? You haven't answered a single question I have asked yet, so I'm doubtful you will start now - in any case, here is the question.

What is worse - belonging to a cult, or being a child of satan?

 Also, I actually did respond to your "scenario" my sister. I responded to all your incorrect suppositions by posting rebuttals straight from the Bible. You say that Jews are evil, and that their father is satan. I'm telling you that is as dead wrong as wrong gets. You are the one who hasn't read my posts. If you had have read them, you would have seen the truth in regards to the Jews.

Here are some questions that you have avoided...

 1) We must remember that Jesus is the same God that said ALL THE JEWS WILL BE SAVED.
Do you believe Jesus when He says this or not?

2) Gen 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.  

A) Lisa my sister in Jesus...what do you believe God is telling the Jews in this verse?

B)Why does He specifically say "thee and thy seed after thee in their generations"   and then He says "for an everlasting covenant"

C)Do you believe this promise has somehow been canceled?  

3) Gen 17:8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.  

 Remeber Lisa, God is telling the Jews this a couple of thousand years before Jesus came and died on the cross - and He is telling them that - not only will the Jews who are alive at the time He was making that promise, but all the generations of Jews to come after them.

A) Why would God make such a promise if He wouldn't keep it?

B) Do you agree that God made that promise to those Jews and all the future generations of Jews to come?

4) Now I know you don't like answering questions, but  perhaps you can define what a "false god religion" is?

5) Also, perhaps you could explain exactly which "false god" is the God of the Old Testament.

6) What is a "true Jew"?

 and here is a couple of more questions...

1) What does "everlasting" mean?

2) What does covenant mean?

 So Lisa? If you don't answer these questions, I'll have to assume you don't understand the scriptures which pertain to them - or, you are too proud to admit you were wrong. Pride is a sin.

In the very least lisa, you should admit that you don't understand God's covenant with the Jews ( His chosen people ) - that perhaps you were wrong - and stop making incorrect judgements upon God's chosen people, which He made an EVERLASTING COVENANT with.

Bronzesnake

Reba:

Of course I accept the verses written.

The Jewish religion doesn't have Christ as the Messiah as they are still seeking the Christ...don't forget that the word Christ in Greek was the equivelant to "Messiah" in Hebrew. The Jews thought they had the Messiah with Judah Maccabee's, turns out they wanted a military leader...however the Nation of Israel and the Jews will come...in God's time...to know Jesus as Messiah...that's promised in Scripture.

The Jews don't abide in the doctrine of Christ...YET. It's clear in Scripture that they as a nation will because God keeps His promises. I'm not arguing that the Jews are saved at this moment...however I am arguing that they are not a cult. They are still God's people no matter what...they've just been set aside and have been so for a few thousand years. Just a few responses...i'll do some more research on those verses and get back to you. God Bless

Joshua

Thanks Joshua,
 For answering the questions and i will be looking for your added responce.  :)

 That's exactly what I've been saying!  :D

Bronzesnake

LoL...glad we understand what you're saying now Bronze...lol..and no problem Reba...you ask a question, i'll try my best to answer it to the best of your satisfaction without being too exhaustive. ;D

God Bless

Joshua

Quote:Bronze

What is worse - belonging to a cult, or being a child of satan?

what is worse is not belonging to CHRIST.


1) We must remember that Jesus is the same God that said ALL THE JEWS WILL BE SAVED.
Do you believe Jesus when He says this or not?
[/b]Yes, just like when He said there is only one way to the FATHER and that would be by accepting Him. (Jesus)



A) Lisa my sister in Jesus...what do you believe God is telling the Jews in this verse?
I believe GOD is saying exactlly what is written.

B)Why does He specifically say "thee and thy seed after thee in their generations"  and then He says "for an everlasting covenant" Why does GOD say that He will use who He wants, Rise up who He wants and so forth, because He is GOD.

C)Do you believe this promise has somehow been canceled?
Canceled? Well lets see...
   
Apparent Failure of the promises to ISRAEL explained by their unbelief

Brethren, my heart's desire and my prayer to GOD for them is for their salvation.
For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for GOD, but not in accordance with knowledge. For not knowing about GODs righteousness, and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of GOD. For CHRIST is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
3) Gen 17:8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.  
Gods promise is about the land here. LAND not everlasting life.

Remeber Lisa, God is telling the Jews this a couple of thousand years before Jesus came and died on the cross - and He is telling them that - not only will the Jews who are alive at the time He was making that promise, but all the generations of Jews to come after them.
LAND is what this scripture is about. And you say GOD said this to them before Jesus even came as if Jesus did not come and die for the jews also. You say that like they had some kind of locked in deal and they don't need Jesus?

A) Why would God make such a promise if He wouldn't keep it?
GOD never promised them they they would get everlasting life if they didn't accept Jesus. As was said by someone who agrees with you =they don't believe yet=

B) Do you agree that God made that promise to those Jews and all the future generations of Jews to come? see answer A teacher. ;D

4) Now I know you don't like answering questions, but  perhaps you can define what a "false god religion" is?
a false god religion is one that worship false gods
for a bonus- a false god is anything or anyone that is not the true God. The Trinity, FatherSonHolySpirit.

5) Also, perhaps you could explain exactly which "false god" is the God of the Old Testament. people worshiped animals and objects,statues, and fire. But GOD was who the jews worsiped at that time. Thats not what I am disputing. When JesusGod came to earth they did not receive The True GOD anymore. Did you read that?

6) What is a "true Jew"? Someone who holds to the doctrine of the jews. And believes in them and them alone. They don't accept the new testament.

and here is a couple of more questions...

1) What does "everlasting" mean? what ever you want it to mean ;D

2) What does covenant mean?
Let me tell you it's not about what I think and as i look up the word in the New Unger's Bible Dictionary it has way more meanings that you think. But I will post this one that you are referring to.
=The Covenant with Isreal- This took place at Sinai, when the people had intimidated theracceptance of the words of the covenant as found in the Ten Commandments and promised to keep the same. Their obedience to the commands of the law was to be rewarded by Gods constant care of Isreal, temporal prosperity, victory over enemies, and the pouring out of His Spirit. The seal of this covenant was to be circumcision and was called "His Covenant" It was renewed after different periods of jewish history.=




Another Quote" The Jews don't abide in the doctrine of Christ...YET. "
 Well hello!!!! thats what I'm saying. So if they don't have Christ and they die, well.

Quote:"They are still God's people no matter what...they've just been set aside and have been so for a few thousand years."
So when you say set aside does that mean they get away with not accepting Jesus??? For a few thousand years? Will they die without accepting Him in this few thousand years?
Now what happens when you die without Christ? Jews are not loved beter than us nor does GOD show them favortism.

I said in a few thousand years to signify that they've been sat aside for a LONG time...Actually the Jews are still God's treasure...I've not seen any Scripture that claims that. If you want my stance on the issue check out this site:

http://www.geocities.com/reasonstobelieve2000/josh.html

it has my bible study I did on Israel and may clarify mine and bronze's stance. God Bless

Joshua

Mrs Chosen...

 All I can say my sister, is that you are seriously confused about many of the scriptures. Your answers, as muddled as they are, corroborate that fact.

It isn't a Heaven or Hell issue, so I will cease in trying to explain it to you my sister.

many blessings Lisa.

Bronzesnake

 

Brothers and Sisters,

2 cents worth I hope:

This is a very difficult and deep study in God's Word. I would simply like to make several comments.

Man is never able to obey the law, be in obedience to God, be free of sin, or keep any of his promises to God. This is one primary reason why Jesus fulfilled the law and died on the Cross for us.

Those of us who are children of God (born again - Saved) are members of the CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST. Almighty God has made promises to this CHURCH not made with human hands, and HE will keep them, even though there isn't a single member worthy of entrance or worthy of staying. Every man and woman in HIS CHURCH failed, sinned, fell short, and disobeyed, BUT Almighty God will keep HIS promises to HIS CHURCH regardless. Almighty God always keeps his part of any PROMISE to the letter and perfectly, but not one of the SAVED has done as instructed or obeyed. That does not mean that Almighty God will condemn them or kick them out of the BODY OF CHRIST. Just the opposite - Almighty God always keeps HIS promises completely and perfectly.

Israel is NOT the CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST. Israel is set apart forever, and Almighty God has made promises to Israel that will be kept completely and perfectly. YES!, all of Israel will be SAVED at God's appointed time. Israel has suffered greatly for many generations because of disobedience, and Israel will continue to suffer until God's appointed time. Israel is still in disobedience, but that does not mean that Almighty God will fail to keep HIS Promises completely and perfectly to Israel at HIS appointed time. That time is not now, but that time will come. Israel is still God's own, HIS chosen people, and all of Israel will be saved.

Israel has always been treated separate and apart, and the same remains true today and forever. Almighty God is NOT finished dealing with Israel. A time will come when Israel will suffer more greatly than ever, but a time will also come when all Israel will be saved. The nations that come against or harm Israel will experience the wrath of Almighty God. The nations that bless Israel will be blessed. In the ages to come, Israel will be the center of world attention and the horrible wrath to come. BUT, Israel, specifically Jerusalem, will be location for the Throne of Jesus Christ when HE rules and reigns over the earth for 1,000 years. No power can prevent the Promises of Almighty God being fulfilled completely and perfectly at HIS appointed time. That time is not yet, but it might be near.

In times past, Almighty God blinded Israel for disobedience, and that time was when Jesus walked the earth and was rejected by HIS OWN, Israel. Israel has been punished since that time, and Israel's greatest punishment is yet to come. At God's appointed time, HE will heal Israel of blindness, AND, ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED! SO, Israel will experience much more of GOD's WRATH, but Israel will also be healed and restored for eternity at God's appointed time.

Finally, Israel does not represent a cult, an Antichrist religion, or anything evil at all. Regardless of Israel's disobedience, Israel is still set apart and distinct for the future promises of Almighty God. Israel is still GOD'S, and Israel will be restored , MADE TO SEE, HEALED, AND SAVED!

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 55:17  Evening, and morning, and at noon, will I pray, and cry aloud: and he shall hear my voice.

ok. I hear you so i just have 1 question.

If a jew who practises judaism dies today (right now) will he go to heaven?

 You misunderstood me my friend. I did say that without Jesus, Jews are doomed - so are we - got it so far?

 I am saying that the Jews will be saved by God - God is Jesus. God made them a very special promise - a promise which was made exclusively to the Jews - the Jews have a seperate special covenant from God/Jesus - God/Jesus promised the Jews that they would ALL be forgiven and saved - God/Jesus will forgive EVERY SINGLE JEW - The Jews will ALL accept Jesus, the Jews who died in the O.T. times and the Jews that died in Jesus times and the Jews who live or die in the Great Tribulation - ALL Jews! That's exactly what God told them - God has warned us (Gentiles) not to be "ignorant" or jealous of this special promise which He made with His CHOSEN people (read Romans 11). We have been "grafted" in to that covenant - We are "added" - We have not "supplanted" the Jews - That's the mistake that some of us have made - We can't understand that God has the power to accomplish ALL things - In His own way - At His own appointed time.

 We gentiles have an option - accept God or spend eternity in the Lake of Fire - We either will or we won't accept Him - God has promised the Jews that they WILL ALL accept Jesus,  therefore they WILL ALL BE SAVED.

 Why do you think there is an "Old covenant" and a "New covenant"? Do you believe God/Jesus broke the old one in favour of the new one? He did not!

 Jesus Himself made a very specific declaration in regards to this very question my friend...

 Matthew 5:17-19, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

 Jesus said that until all is fulfilled, the Old Covenant is still in effect. So here's the question. When is, "till all be fulfilled"? The popular belief is that when Jesus said "it is finished" (John 19:30) on the cross, and the Temple vale tore from top to bottom, that was the fulfillment of all things. That's wrong!

 Jesus said the following...

 Luke 21:21-24, "Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled."

 Jesus described what would happen in the future...He said that the Jews would have great trouble in their land, and wrath would be on their people. He described war and expulsion from Israel. This is exactly what happened. The Roman General Vespasian took his army to Israel and kicked their bums! Vespasian evicted all the Jews and the Gentiles moved in and took over - that's when Israel became known as Palestine... exactly as Jesus said it would happen.

 The fulfillment of "all things" is revealed - It happens when the time of the Gentiles is complete. That happens at Christs second coming.

 The Old covenant has not been destroyed - it will be fulfilled - The New covenant has not supplanted the Old covenant - God/Jesus will forgive ALL JEWS - In His appointed time.

Bronzesnake

 

You have said much again but yet not address the question.
My question was...ok. I hear you so i just have 1 question.

If a jew who practises judaism dies today (right now) will he go to heaven?  
 
 
You said Quote" God/Jesus will forgive EVERY SINGLE JEW - The Jews will ALL accept Jesus, the Jews who died in the O.T. times and the Jews that died in Jesus times and the Jews who live or die in the Great Tribulation - ALL Jews!

see we agree!!!! You are saying that the jews that die today won't be saved. You do know there are jews today right?

 Are you telling me thatw e don't live in Jesus times?  ???

I was actually responding to Erise's question to me...

I don't believe you can comprehend the scriptures in regards to the Jews and God's ETERNAL PROMISE to them.

There is no question in my mind as to the absolute faithfull love that you have for Jesus - but on this subject, you are just plain wrong my sister.

So I will reiterate my prior post to you my sister...

 Mrs Chosen...

All I can say my sister, is that you are seriously confused about many of the scriptures. Your answers, as muddled as they are, corroborate that fact.

It isn't a Heaven or Hell issue, so I will cease in trying to explain it to you my sister.

many blessings Lisa.

Bronzesnake

When you said
"and the Jews that died in Jesus times " that is past tence.
I'm an english major so thats probally why I read that wrong.
Because died means past tence.
Anyway you say it's not a heaven or hell issue like they have special rules. Heaven and hell is everyones choise. The bible says that the jews are not loved more by GOD than we are. The bible say there is no more jew and gentile meaning GOD does not show them special favor. We all gotta except HIM and the jews don't right now, the still think Jesus is coming for the 1st time when He was already hear. Now what part of that don't I understand.
I do read more that the old testamentand all understanding is not in the old testament it's in the Whole Word.
But jews are not receiving the New testiment and they are dying with out receiving Jesus. I mean the jews by blood line and religion. Are we talking about the same people?
Maybe thats where the confussion is coming in?

Fellow christians the way to asure the salvation of your grandchildren is to have them have a Jewish mother. Correct Bronze? And all this time i thought salvation was at the Cross of Christ.

P.S.  If your only halve Jewish are you only halve saved?

 Reeba...am I detecting a hint of sarcasm?  :D

 What part of ALL JEWS do you think God is lying or wrong about?

Bronzesnake

Bronze....a little disagreement here.

Jesus told the story of a rich man (a jew) and lazarus (a beggar).

The rich man was on the wrong side of the fence in sheol (the lower hell).  The beggar was on the right side (paradise).

When Jesus descended into the depths, He went to Paradise, from whence He led "captivity" (those waiting on Him to complete His work) free (to Heaven).

The rich man stayed where he was.

When Paul is speaking of "all Israel will be saved", he is referring to those alive when Jesus begins His reign, and who acknowledge Him as Messiah, Savior, Redeemer.

In the meantime....to die without Jesus is to be lost for eternity.

What you have been saying smacks loudly of John Hagee and the Two Covenant Theology.

A Bronze aren't you the pot calling the kettle black!
You talked about me not answering your questions.
You are acting like I'm not on the board anymore.
You didn't give me time and assumed that cause I didn't type back right away that I was unable to understand scripture. When what I was doing is studying more instead of just coming back with my own opinions and interpertation.

so just answer me this please
A jew that practises judaism right now(you know that they do) dies today with believing the messiah has not come, why won't they go to hell. You say the bible says they will all be saved but the same bible says that without CHRIST hell is the issue

If you want to insure the salvation of your grandchildren see to it that they have a Jewish mother. Correct?  

John 17:12

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
KJV

 What is meant "and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition;"?

Rom 9:6

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
KJV

The Scriptures do not say 'all jews' , in this context, it says 'all Israel'. And I believe all Israel will/is be saved.


 I started to post the verses in Eph 2 I couldn't find a good stopping point So i will just post  "Ephesians"

 My friend...

To begin - Do you know the difference between Sheol and Gehenna? If you do - and let's assume for arguments sake that the "Rich Man" "parable" was literal (which it isn't) but if it were, then the rich man is not described as being in Gehenna is he?

This is an important detail, because I contend that God promised that the Jews will be forgiven and saved at the end of the time of the Gentiles - when Jesus Returns I believe they do go to their "graves"( sheol ) when they die BEFORE JESUS RETURNS

The author of Hebrews clearly tells us that Abraham, as well as all the other Old Testament saints, have not yet received the promises given to them by God.

HEBREWS 11:13 All these [Abraham, Noah, Abel, etc.] died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. . . . 39 And all these [including Abraham], having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40 because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.  

The great men and women of faith listed in Hebrews 11 have not yet been made perfect and given eternal life. They, along with all the saints of God from every age, are currently sleeping in their graves (Job 3:11-19; Psa. 6:5; 115:17; Ecc. 9:5, 10; I Cor. 15:20; Isa. 57:1-2; Dan. 12:2; Acts 2:29, 34; 13:36).

These saints are awaiting the first resurrection, which will take place when Yeshua the Messiah returns at the sounding of the seventh trumpet (Matt. 24:30-31; I Cor. 15:51-52; I The. 4:16; Rev. 11:15-18).


The story of the "rich man" is a parable my friend.
You posted that parable but then you added 1Peter 3:18-20 onto it, which appears to make the parable literal my friend. That's not possible.

But, let's look at 1Peter 3:18-20 - who did Jesus preach to there? and for what purpose?

The parable of Lazarus and the rich man, has been used a long time by mainstream ministers to teach the reality of "hell" -  however, it really has nothing to say about punishment or reward in the afterlife at all. Christ used this story (parable), which fit the common misconception about life after death in his day, to show the fate that awaited the Jewish nation because of the unbelief and faithlessness, which led them to reject him as the Messiah. They still suffer from that fate to this very day. Yet the time is soon coming when God will pour on the Jews the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Christ whom they pierced, and they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn (Zec. 12:10).

Look folks, we have to stop being blind to God's promise with His Chosen people - it smacks of conceit and jealousy, whether intentional or not. In the very least, and under the best possible scenario, it shows a total lack of understanding and ignorance of God's ability to keep His promises.

 In order to come to such erroneous conclusions, we are forced to supplant God's own Truth with our own. The fact is that God did make an EVERLASTING covenant with the Jews - Hence the term HIS CHOSEN PEOPLE. This is not ambiguous at all people - stop trying to interpret God's Word.

Christ uses the last two verses of the "rich man" parable as an amazing prophecy of his pending resurrection from the dead. The rich man says that although his brothers may not accept the scriptural evidence for the identity of the Messiah, they will accept the evidence of one who is raised from the dead.
But Abraham answers and plainly tells him that anyone who rejects God's Word about the Messiah will also refuse to acknowledge the evidence of a miraculous resurrection. This last verse is a sad prophecy about the Jews and about all the Israelites who have not, despite God's resurrection of His son from the power of the grave, recognized Christ as the Messiah.

Christ ends this parable abruptly, with no real resolution presented. The picture presented is a bleak one, yet there is hope for the Jews and for all Israel. In Romans 11, Paul laid out that hope in such a manner that scarcely few today have really believed it.

In Romans 11:1 Paul rhetorically asks if God has cast away His people, Israel. He answers his own question emphatically by saying "Certainly not!" He tells us that God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Paul writes that there is currently a remnant of Israel, analogous to the seven thousand reserved to God in Elijah's time (I Kings 19:18), that God has elected by grace. The rest God hardened, that the Gentiles might also be included in salvation through grace. He gives the resolution of the situation in verse 26.

ROMANS 11:25   For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, and He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; 27 for this is My covenant with them, when I take away their sins." 28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. 33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!

If I were to accept your version of the future of the Jews, I would have to deny the verses I just posted among several others which explain and confirm God's promise to the Jews.

They are His CHOSEN people folks - we'll all just have to get over it.

p.s. I love Hagee's ministery!  :D

Bronzesnake

 Reeba?!

Or see to it that they find Jesus!  ;)

 What more do I have to say?!! ALL JEWS. These are not my words Reeba my friend - they are God's words. Perhaps you should berate Him.  :D

Bronzesnake

 So...God will save a country - dirt and stones huh? Gee I wonder what kind of sin the ground is up to these days Reeba?

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:  
I guess if you didn't want to believe the Jews would ALL be saved, then you could misinterpret these descriptive words "Israel" and "Jacob" to mean God will save the land.
However, the next verse puts everything into it's proper perspective...

Rom 11:27 For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.  
 Them and Their - Nope, it's not land God has made an everlasting promise to - it's Jews. :D

Why does this bother so many of us?  :'(

Bronzesnake

 My dear sister. You have already accused me of disagreeing with everything you post. In fact, this topic is the single topic I have read from you that I thoroughly disagree with.

You have stated your beliefs on the subject and I have stated mine. What more can be gained accept the possibillity of being hurtful to each other? I don't want that my sister.

 I have answered that specific question several times in my posts. I guess you don't recognize the reply.

 So... One last time....

 
 That Jew would go straight to his or her grave. (read my reply to Evangelist (it's the last long post I made before this one) I go into detail about where Jews and all saints TODAY will go after death.

 They go to their graves and they will remain there until Jesus returns - forgives them - and resurrects them into His everlasting Kingdom - Just as He said He would do.

 I hope that is plain and clear enough for you my sister.

p.s. I sent you a private message a couple of days ago in regards to the gospel rap post.

Bronzesnake

I wish i could put into words my feelings on what  this doctrine says about the Cross of Christ. I can not. Marry a Jewish woman and your children will be saved by her blood. Something is just not right about that in light of the Cross of Christ..

I said something around the forums, i think it was to you, we wont change each others minds. I have a hard time believing christians who devalue the the blood of Jesus to that of one of us humans.

Salvation is only via His blood. I will try and not respond to you ,Bronze, on this topic, seems this topic gets locked anyway.

I hope you read the other thread as it was intended  :P

 Reeba.

 Please don't get bent out of shape. I love you my sister! :D

 It isn't through any woman or man's blood that the Jews will be saved. It is through the blood of Jesus - He is the same God who made the promise to the Jews in the first place. - don't seperate God from Jesus Reeba.

 The Jews WILL ACCEPT JESUS the Bible/God says so.

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:  

See? Jesus is the deliverer! So they aren't saved just because they happen to be Jews - they are saved because God made them a promise that they would be HIS CHOSEN PEOPLE that HE WOULD BE THEIR GOD ETERNALLY. He accomplishes this through the blood of Jesus.

I really don't know any other way to explain it Reeba. It's scriptural my sister.

If it was most anyone else Reeba, I would have just stopped trying to explain it. I respect you very much, and I would never intentially be rude or hurtful to you my sister

Bronzesnake

I could be wrong, but I think the question Reba is asking is, if a gentile marries a Jew, (known as His people, Israel), and  bears children, then those children would be half gentile and half Jew.  God made a promise to the Jews that ALL Israel (Jews) would be saved.  Since these children are half gentile and half Jewish, is God's promise to save ALL Jews applicable to them, considering?

Hello cris...

Ya, that's where I thought Reeba was going initially, but then she posted the following...

 

Bronzesnake

Bronzesnake,

I don't remember you saying anything to me about one not changing another's mind.  Could you refresh my memory?

I don't think Reba was meaning to devalue the blood of Christ to that as one of us.  I think she meant she was unable to put her feelings in writing so as to be clear on what she really meant.  Sometimes I have that difficulty and am misunderstood.  It can be frustrating at times.

Anyway, back to my last question about the children of a Jew and gentile.  Would God's promises to Israel (the Jews) apply here, in your opinion?

cris

Bronze

I left you a teasing joke on another thread and you didnt read it as a joke.   :(


Do you believe in free will?

Cris ,
 i have a memory way back in my empty head that says  to be a Jew ones mother must be Jewish.

In my view and i am sure he doesn't see it that way ( Bronzes) teaching is a devaluing of the Cross I must becarefull or i will get 'in trouble' here at CU. This teaching in my view disreguards so much of the Word of God as pinned by Paul.  

I personaly believe in the unity of the Church. Christ has one body  these verses say it better than i...

Eph 2:19-3:1

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.


KJV
 To me this unity includes OT saints and NT staints.

Reba,

I now think I'm confused. ;D

Are you saying if your mother were Jewish, it doesn't matter whether you're considered a Jew or not?

cris

Reba,

Question #2

If this teaching about a Jewish mother and child is true, how is it devaluing the Cross?

I'm falling asleep-------it's 1:30 on the east coast and midwest. zzzzzzzzzzzzz  ;D

Grace and peace,
cris

My understanding is, to be a Jew ones mother must be Jewish.


In my view we are saved by the Blood of Jesus. His sacrifice on the Cross. Our natural birth doesnt matter. Israelie, Scott Afircan, USA,  a  bunch of others i also cant spell! Natural birth is not unto salvation our rebirth is...

John 3:3
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
KJV

 I may have confusied many while trying to point out the absurdity of the doctrine of Jewish Nationalism taken to the extrem as posted here. We are saved by the blood of Christ not by the blood of our natural parents.

Cris,

My lack of good grammar is what is confusing.

Anyone that believes God has rejected His covenant people, the Jewish people, is wrong.

  Of His Covenant people, the physical descendants of Abraham, God promised, "I will bless them that bless you and curse him that curses you" (Gen. 12:3).

 Jeremiah 31,35-37 says, "This is what the Lord says, He who appoints the sun to shine by day, Who decrees the moon and the stars to shine by night, Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar - the Lord Almighty is His Name: 'Only if these decrees vanish from My sight,' declares the Lord, 'will the descendants of Israel ever cease to be a nation before Me.' This is what the Lord says: 'Only if the heavens above can be measured and the foundations of the earth below be searched out will I reject all the descendants of Israel, because of all they have done,' declares the Lord."

His covenant promises between the land and His people Israel were everlasting and unconditional. Their quality of life in the land was most certainly conditional on their behavior, but not the ownership, which He gave to them as an everlasting possession. Before Messiah Yeshua came, God protected and defended them because they were the human channel for the Messiah, the savior of the world. Since His ascension, He has protected them and kept them as a people in the nations to which they were scattered so that He could bring them back to the land of Israel in fulfillment of Bible prophecy (Isa. 11:11-12; Eze. 36; Isa. 49, etc.) to witness the coming of Messiah, their Triumphal King. Christians see this as being the Second Coming of Yeshua.


The Apostle Paul described the position of Gentile believers, when he wrote, "Remember, that you Gentiles ... were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Yeshua you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ" (Ephesians 2:11-13). Without Christ, we had nothing and would be off worshipping totem poles, were it not for the Jewish people who gave us God's Word and brought salvation to the world as promised to Abraham (Gen. 12:3). Yet, we Gentiles have spent most of the past 2,000 years rejecting the Jews. In Rom. 11:17-24, Paul warned the Gentile Church that pride against the Jews was a danger: "If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you... Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you either."

 Paul also raised the question "...God has not rejected His people has He? May it never be!" (Romans 11:1). In Romans 15:27, Paul concludes, "For if the Gentiles have shared in the Jews' spiritual blessings, they owe it to the Jews to share with them their material blessings."

Sadly, a lot of us Christians don't accept the call of the Apostle to embrace a position of being grafted into the covenants and promises of Israel and being brought near by the blood of Christ.

My friends it's time to take a stand on behalf of the Jewish people and Israel, a role we are called upon to fulfill, according to the writers of the New Testament. It is God's intention to bring both Jew and Gentile together as "one new man" when He destroys the "middle wall of partition" that has separated us for the past 2,000 years (Eph. 2:11-18). I believe this time is coming very soon, and it is time to make the change and prepare ourselves for this new relationship that will bring us together to worship the Lord God of Israel together in spirit and in truth.

Bronzesnake

 Amen my friend!

 I know how difficult it can be for us to consider that a people who fundamentally reject Jesus as God, will one day be saved...by Jesus! I agree that no one not even the Jews, can be saved without Jesus. It is Jesus who will save ALL Jews. So, I'm not negating the blood of Him as some believe. The scriptures tell us that it is Jesus who will forgive and save ALL Jews...

 Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:  
How can we disregard the scriptures?

I used to believe the Jews were doomed to the Lake of Fire also, but I found all these Old and New Testament scriptures where God made an EVERLASTING promise to ALL Jews. Once I studied these scriptures without any preconceptions, I had to concede that God is the Almighty & Everlasting Truth - All things are possible through Him - All His promises will be completed - whether I understood them or not - whether we like it or not.

 Bronzesnake

Amen Bronzesnake!

I pity the fools that go up against them.

Pastor Roger...
.

Amen my brother!
All one has to do is read what becomes of the enemy armies attacking the Jews in Revelation - not to mention scores of other references from the Old Testament of what becomes of the enemies of God's chosen people. You nailed it on the head...I also pity the fools!

Bronzesnake

It is not a curse to say the gospel should be preached to the Isrealies. Nor is it a curse to say they need a saviour.

I dont know anyone who believes God has rejected His own.




I would very much like to make a point here... I hope my poor writing skils dont make a miss of this....

I wish everyone who has read my post to this point to understand my view of the nation of Israel today... As an American  i fully believe we should help protect Israel herself. We should stand with her as we did with Kewait(sp).Why should she give back land that she uses to protect herself with that she gained when she was attacted? So you  should have gotten the idea that my spiritaul view and political view are not the same. Spiritaully we have the same  salvation to me it is as simple as that.

You are right about Israel protecting herself Reeba - and you are also right that we all have the same spiritual salvation....It's through Jesus.

 Of course the Gospel should be preached to the Jews Reeba. There are many Jews who are Christians, and we know the very first Christians were Jews. The Jewish Christians will be Raptured along with the Gentile Christians - the others (speaking of the Jews specifically) will go through the final seven year Tribulation, and as a result of all the New Testament prophecies which they will witness coming to pass, they will realize that Jesus was and is the Christ which they had rejected. That's when they will finally understand who Jesus was, and is - that's when the 144,000 Jews (twelve thousand from each tribe) will be miraculously protected by God's seal, so they can minister to all the unsaved Jews and Gentiles during the Great Tribulation.
 This is the whole purpose for God's Wrath of seven years upon Israel - It's not simply God wanting to torture people for no reason, it's so that they will know He is God, and as a result, they will be saved.

 Many times in the Bible, God punishes people so they will know He is God.

Eze 6:14 So will I stretch out my hand upon them, and make the land desolate, yea, more desolate than the wilderness toward Diblath, in all their habitations: and they shall know that I [am] the LORD.

Eze 7:27 The king shall mourn, and the prince shall be clothed with desolation, and the hands of the people of the land shall be troubled: I will do unto them after their way, and according to their deserts will I judge them; and they shall know that I [am] the LORD.

Eze 12:16 But I will leave a few men of them from the sword, from the famine, and from the pestilence; that they may declare all their abominations among the heathen whither they come; and they shall know that I [am] the LORD.

Eze 13:21 Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver my people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I [am] the LORD.

Eze 15:7 And I will set my face against them; they shall go out from [one] fire, and [another] fire shall devour them; and ye shall know that I [am] the LORD, when I set my face against them.

Eze 20:38 And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I [am] the LORD.

Eze 25:11 And I will execute judgments upon Moab; and they shall know that I [am] the LORD.

Eze 25:17 And I will execute great vengeance upon them with furious rebukes; and they shall know that I [am] the LORD, when I shall lay my vengeance upon them.

Eze 28:22 And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I [am] against thee, O Zidon; and I will be glorified in the midst of thee: and they shall know that I [am] the LORD, when I shall have executed judgments in her, and shall be sanctified in her.

Eze 28:23 For I will send into her pestilence, and blood into her streets; and the wounded shall be judged in the midst of her by the sword upon her on every side; and they shall know that I [am] the LORD.

Eze 29:21 In that day will I cause the horn of the house of Israel to bud forth, and I will give thee the opening of the mouth in the midst of them; and they shall know that I [am] the LORD.

Eze 30:19 Thus will I execute judgments in Egypt: and they shall know that I [am] the LORD.

Eze 30:25 But I will strengthen the arms of the king of Babylon, and the arms of Pharaoh shall fall down; and they shall know that I [am] the LORD, when I shall put my sword into the hand of the king of Babylon, and he shall stretch it out upon the land of Egypt.

Eze 30:26 And I will scatter the Egyptians among the nations, and disperse them among the countries; and they shall know that I [am] the LORD.

Eze 35:15 As thou didst rejoice at the inheritance of the house of Israel, because it was desolate, so will I do unto thee: thou shalt be desolate, O mount Seir, and all Idumea, [even] all of it: and they shall know that I [am] the LORD.

Eze 36:11 And I will multiply upon you man and beast; and they shall increase and bring fruit: and I will settle you after your old estates, and will do better [unto you] than at your beginnings: and ye shall know that I [am] the LORD.

Eze 38:23 Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I [am] the LORD.

Eze 39:6 And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I [am] the LORD.

Bronzesnake

I stepped back for a few by order of my husband.
Now I am coming back with an amen.
Bronze it's about what you said.
Quote "There are many Jews who are Christians, and we know the very first Christians were Jews. The Jewish Christians will be Raptured along with the Gentile Christians - the others (speaking of the Jews specifically) will go through the final seven year Tribulation, and as a result of all the New Testament prophecies which they will witness coming to pass, they will realize that Jesus was and is the Christ which they had rejected."

Do you know that I totally agree with this statement, because this is what I've also read in HIS Word. But notice how you speak of the future. The rapture we may or may not see. For we have no date when GOD is gonna start HIS bringing down the house. So I asked about the jews that are not Christians that are born into judaism and die in judaism right now before the rapture and I believe (Correct me if I'm wrong (u like that)  ) you said that when Christ comes back they shall rise from their graves? I know the scripture but I can't remember the address. It says "The dead in CHRIST shall rise" If this is what you are talking about I have to say you are wrong about the non Christian  jews being risen. Because only the dead in Christ shall rise. Now if their is another scripture please open my eyes to it so that I may study.

In Love as always

Mrs Chosen quote...
 
 OK, right off the top...I have posted many scriptures which have God emphatically, unequivocally stating and even restating that the Jews will never be rejected, and that the Jews will ALL be forgiven and saved. I even tried to present God's final plan (Tribulation) in which He completes His task and fulfills His promises.

 Mrs Chosen - Lisa - my sister - you rejected all those scriptures and supplanted them with your own ideas of what God will or will not do.

I've been a poster on this forum for years, and after that length of time, you get a pretty good idea of when it's time to call it a day with certain posters. I've seen debates go too far, and things inevitably get ugly. I do not wish that to happen between you and I my sister. Already, you have fired a couple of shots across my bow, such as when you said I was going to disagree with everything you posted - In other words - you accuse me of not seeking after the Truth, but instead, you see me as an enemy who wishes to exclusively take the opposite opinion to your own. That's not who I am, and not what I'm all about.

 I disagree with people sometimes, and other times I agree with them - sounds about normal to me. There have been times when I have come to realize I have been wrong in my Biblical beliefs on any given doctrine, and I have openly stated so, such as this topic. I used to believe the "un saved" Jews were condemned to the Lake of Fire, but then I was shown scriptures which made it obvious to me that it simply wasn't true.

My measuring stick in regards to the Bible is - I take what God says at face value. I don't "spiritualize" God's Word. If God says Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

 Then I believe " The Deliverer (JESUS) shall come out of Sion and wipe out all sin from the Jews, then I believe Him.

When God says emphatically makes a statement such as ...Jeremiah 31,35-37 says, "This is what the Lord says, He who appoints the sun to shine by day, Who decrees the moon and the stars to shine by night, Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar - the Lord Almighty is His Name: 'Only if these decrees vanish from My sight,' declares the Lord, 'will the descendants of Israel ever cease to be a nation before Me.' This is what the Lord says: 'Only if the heavens above can be measured and the foundations of the earth below be searched out will I reject all the descendants of Israel, because of all they have done,' declares the Lord."

 Then I emphatically believe Him.

 When God says...Gen 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.  

 I trust Him to keep His promise.

When God says...Gen 17:8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.  

 The it shall be done!

 I think that instead of repeatedly questioning what happens to the Jews who die who are non Christian...yada, yada, yada. You should be questioning your ability to trust God to do what He says He will do.

 Do you believe that God is limited in His power? Do you believe that, just because we may not understand how He works - that lack of understanding on our part somehow limits God's ability to keep His promises?

 God's Will shall be done Lisa.

 That's all I can offer you on this topic my friend. If you don't believe ALL scripture, then you should seriously consider whether the scriptures which you choose to believe are just as invalid as the scriptures you choose to reject. It's seems to me that you doubt some of His Word. The scriptures which I posted are a perfect example - another is your uncertainty of whether the Rapture will happen or not - I'll quote you on this...(The rapture we may or may not see). God says it will happen and all Christians will "see it"- why don't you unconditionally trust Him Lisa?

Bronzesnake

Isn't  "Gentile Christian" an oxymoron


Strongs for the word 'gentiles' which i find 129 times ( please note the spelling) To many verses to list....
gôy  gôy
go'ee, go'-ee
Apparently from the same root as H1465 (in the sense of massing); a foreign nation; hence a Gentile; also (figuratively) a troop of animals, or a flight of locusts: - Gentile, heathen, nation, people.


Strongs for the word 'Gentile' which i find 2 times ( please note the spelling)  Rom 2: 9,10

G1672
Ἕλλην
Hellēn
hel'-lane
From G1671; a Hellen (Grecian) or inhabitant of Hellas; by extension a Greek speaking person, especially a non-Jew: - Gentile, Greek.


Gal 3:27-29

27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
KJV

Col 3:10-11

10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
KJV

Rom 2:28-29

28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
KJV

Hello Reeba.

Yes, I suppose it is an oxymoron of sorts, but we understand what is being conveyed - such as - Hell's Angels - Jumbo Shrimp - Pretty Ugly - Unbiased Opinion - Living Dead - Microsoft Works - Open Secret - Larger Half - Clearly Confused - Act naturally - Alone Together - Found Missing - Free Trade _ Peacekeeper Missiles etc.  :D

The verses you posted reinforce the fact that God makes Jews and saved Christians equal. We are grafted into the original promise to the Jews, and therefore we receive the same inheritance - we are equal - We become "a new man".

 How could Christians become equal with the Jews if the Jews are condemned to the Lake of Fire?
 
Bronzesnake

Bronzesnake,

Brother, I have studied bible prophecy for many years, but that does not imply that I understand all of it. The easiest parts to understand and accept are the Promises of Almighty God. A promise made thousands of years ago will be a promise kept completely and perfectly. I simply consider the Promises of Almighty God to be done at His appointed time.

Israel's greatest suffering is yet to come. When one considers the great suffering just in the last 100 years, it's difficult to understand how much greater suffering and punishment is yet to come. Israel's disobedience did not go unpunished. HOWEVER, every Promise Almighty God made to Israel will be kept most completely and perfectly. Israel's greatest punishment is yet to come, but so is the restoration of Israel. The greatest battles of all times will be against Israel, and JESUS will fight on the side of Israel. Israel will win because of JESUS, not because of the might and power of Israel, rather because of the MIGHT AND POWER OF JESUS. Israel's King, JESUS CHRIST, will take HIS earthly throne in Jerusalem and rule and reign over the earth from the Throne of David. The Heavenly Throne and Earthly Throne of JESUS CHRIST are two different Thrones. No Christian doubts the absolute reality of JESUS CHRIST'S HEAVENLY THRONE, but many are confused about HIS Earthly Throne that will also be absolute reality. JESUS CHRIST is the KING OF ISRAEL and HE will TAKE HIS THRONE just as surely as HE sits on a HEAVENLY THRONE.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Colossians 2:16-17  Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days; which are a shadow of things to come; but the body [substance] is of Christ.

Amen my brother!

Why do we need "faith" if we are supposed to fully understand all of His ways? God says something - I believe it...it's really that simple.

Bronzesnake

Amen! It is indeed that simple.

Please read this whole post and tell me how I should receive what I have read if I have indeed read wrong. Please do not skim through and not bring me any understanding on the scriptures that I have posted. Anyone, everyone.

Quote"That's all I can offer you on this topic my friend. If you don't believe ALL scripture, then you should seriously consider whether the scriptures which you choose to believe are just as invalid as the scriptures you choose to reject. It's seems to me that you doubt some of His Word. The scriptures which I posted are a perfect example - another is your uncertainty of whether the Rapture will happen or not - I'll quote you on this...(The rapture we may or may not see). God says it will happen and all Christians will "see it"- why don't you unconditionally trust Him Lisa?"
First of all I am not studying GOD's word to come to my own conclusions but so that I may know Him more and more.
I do not reject anything in the Bible but I realize that I have to receive what He has said in all the 66 books.
Now with that said I do believe in the rapture and I know we will see it. I'll refrase my statement. We may or may not be alive when Jesus comes back. This is what I ment.
If you are falling away from this thread please don't let it be because you think it will get ugly, because I'm not getting the least bit upset (or ugly ;D).


1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 (New King James Version)
 

The Comfort of Christ's Coming
    13But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.[a]
    15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Every jew???? Past, present and future?
A Warning
 
(Luke 13)
  21Not everyone who calls me their Lord will get into the kingdom of heaven. Only the ones who obey my Father in heaven will get in.

This does not say except the jews, they will get in regardless.

Galatians 2:13-21 (New King James Version)
13And the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrite with him, so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy.

Hypocrite don't get in because the do not truly believe.
You do not die and get another chance to believe, you have to believe while you are alive!! After death it's judgement



Apparent Failure of the promises to ISRAEL explained by their unbelief

Brethren, my heart's desire and my prayer to GOD for them is for their salvation.
For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for GOD, but not in accordance with knowledge. For not knowing about GODs righteousness, and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of GOD. For CHRIST is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Romans 11 (New King James Version)

Israel's Rejection Not Total
   
Jews and Gentiles Grafted into One Tree
    1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, 3"LORD, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life"?[a] 4But what does the divine response say to him? "I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal." 5Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace.

Hello Lisa my sister.

 I will try (again) to show you that ALL Jews will be forgiven and saved. But first, I would like to get a grip on how you view the Rapture.

 You said...

 
 The Rapture happens before Jesus returns. The dead in Christ will rise first, then, those which are alive at that time will rise up together with them to meet Jesus in the air. From there Raptured Christians remain with Jesus in Heaven for the entire seven year Tribulation. When Jesus returns after the seven years, we return with Him, and rule with Him for 1,000 years.

 So, I don't know what you mean when you make that comment on the Rapture. All saved Christians will be Raptured.

 Lisa, this verse is used in reference to non Jewish people who claim to be Christians for their own selfish reasons - such as false healers - and scamers who take peoples money in the name of Jesus.
We know this can not possibly apply to Jews because God says ALL Jews will be forgiven and saved.

 Let me attempt to lay out God's plan of redemption of both Jews and Gentiles in as short a span as I can.

 (Bronzesnake takes in a very deep breath and holds it in......Bronzesnake begins to attempt a seemingly impossible task, while slowly releasing his breath)  :D

Gen 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:  
Abram was a Hebrew who God singled out to use as a conduit for His great plan of redemption (more on this later)

Gen 12:2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
Self evident verse.

Gen 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.  
This is a key verse Lisa. This is a great prophecy which proves that all families (Jew and gentile) would be blessed because of Abram and his descendants. (more on this later)

Gen 12:7 And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him.
Jesus physically appeared to Abram

Gen 15:18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

Gen 17:2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.
God is being very specific here  - He is making a special covenant between Himself and Abram's descendants (Jews)

Gen 17:3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,  

Gen 17:4 As for me, behold, my covenant [is] with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.  

Gen 17:5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.  
God gives Abram a new name.Jesus did this with His desciples, in order to distinguish them as His own

Gen 17:6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.  

Gen 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
Lisa, read this verse very carefully and think about what is going on here. Think about what God has just promised to Abram and all his future generations.  

Gen 17:8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.  


Gen 17:19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, [and] with his seed after him. God goes out of His way to reaffirm His special covenant with His one chosen people (Jews) God never made this promise to any other peoples - exclusively the Jews.

Gen 22:1 And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, [here] I [am].  

Gen 22:2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only [son] Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

Gen 22:3 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and saddled his ass, and took two of his young men with him, and Isaac his son, and clave the wood for the burnt offering, and rose up, and went unto the place of which God had told him.
God has asked Abraham to do the unthinkable, and Abraham obeys!

Gen 22:10 And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.  

Gen 22:11 And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here [am] I.  

Gen 22:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only [son] from me.  

Gen 22:13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind [him] a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.
God provides a sacrafice as a foreshadow of Jesus the Lamb.

Gen 22:15 And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,  

Gen 22:16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only [son]:  

Gen 22:17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which [is] upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;  

Gen 22:18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
Do you understand what God is saying here Lisa? The Jews are God's "chosen people" He chose the Jews. Through this "chosen" bloodline, came the Messiah Jesus. Jesus was a Jew - not an African - not an Englishman - not a Chinaman - not an Indian - you see where I'm going here?

 God's plan of redemption would only work if there was a Christ who would be rejected. This is extremely important to understand. If Jesus was not rejected, He would not have been crucified - If Jesus was not crucified, we would be doomed.

 God CHOSE the Jews so that through the Jewish bloodline Jesus would become a man-Christ - the Jews HAD TO REJECT HIM - this was part of God's plan all along! The Jews would suffer greatly because of this covenant with God - That's why God made the promises with the Jews - He promised them that, They would be His conduit for redemption through the Jewish bloodline - for all humanity! So God told the Jews that they would be forgiven and saved because they are His chosen people through which all humanity would receive a chance at salvation!

 This is almost impossible to express in such a short space, but I believe I have done a fairly good job of laying out specific details in relation to the two covenants and God's method of salvation for Jews and Gentiles.

 Bronzesnake

Who was Ruth?

Who was Rahab?

1 Peter 1:1
1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
KJV
.......
1 Peter 2:9

9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
KJV

Bronzesnake,

AMEN BROTHER!

Had Israel accepted JESUS CHRIST as King and Messiah over 2,000 years ago, the Gentiles would probably still be waiting to hear the GOSPEL. The CROSS is the most precious and significant event in human history. Man was and is desperate for a Saviour, and JESUS died for us to fill our greatest need. I don't want to even imagine where we would be without the cross.

HOWEVER, we know that Almighty God knew in eternity past what would happen when Jesus Christ was made manifest in the flesh. Jesus Christ is Almighty God, so JESUS knew HE was to be a perfect sacrifice, and HE knew the precise moment HE would be nailed to the CROSS before the foundation of the world.

Almighty God's foreknowledge of all is impossible for simple men to understand. We are all simple men, and HE is our CREATOR. It's just as difficult to understand that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit had NO beginning, and they are ONE. HE, the ONE ALMIGHTY GOD was before time began and will be for time eternity.

Simple men should not be upset that they don't have an understanding of the FULL MIGHT, POWER, AND MAJESTY OF ALMIGHTY GOD. Many of HIS ways are past finding out. Just think about Almighty God humbling Himself, making Himself manifest in the flesh, and giving Himself for us on the CROSS. If we understand and accept HIS PERFECT SACRIFICE AND GIFT TO US, we will spend eternity with Him in Heaven.


Love In Christ,
Tom

1 Corinthians 1:18  For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

 Hey my brother - Thank you for filling in the "however" part. I forgot to add that bit.  :D and that is very important.

Bronzesnake

 Hey Reba.

 I see where this is heading...again!  :D

 Look my sister. God says all Jews will be forgiven and saved. You are asking me whether specific people are considered Jews, and if I say yes, you will point out that they are not. If I say no, then you will ask about the children...how am I doing so far?

 I don't claim to know if these "non Jews" are included into the Jewish family. But I would think that they are, much in the same way that Gentiles are included into God's plan of redemption throught he Jews.

 The fact does not change though. God says ALL JEWS will be saved. It shall be done.

Why does this bother you so much my sister?  ???

Bronzesnake
 

bRONZE YOU ARE LIKE NO HELP AT ALL TO ME BECAUSE YOU ONLY GIVE ME WHAT YOU WANT . IVE SAID OK YOU SAY THIS, BUT CAN YOU HELP ME WITH THESE SCRIPTURES AND WHAT THEY MEAN?

So why have you left me hanging? I posted these scriptures more that twice and I'm just asking that you break them down for me like you've done with the others, yet again you just by past.
Like you keep posting the book of Genn. but you won't help me with the scriptures I'm asking you to to explain.

WHY? I'm not gonna post them again so could you just scroll up to see the last post? As far as the rapture, I believe it to be exactly like you said. My words are hard to explain sometimes. I guess thats why everyone was thinking I said Judaism was a cult when thats not what I said. So this is what I'm saying. When the funk hits the fan and the dead IN CHRIST shall rise, rapture, 2nd coming of CHRIST. We might be dead before all this takes place is what I'm saying. We are not promised tomorrow. So when the Saints are being Raptured, we might be risen and not raptured. I noticed when you broke this down I didn't see the jews being risen or raptured. So the dead jews that didn't die in CHRIST just get a favortism ticket in? Thats not what I read in the Holy Bible.
Although I'm not a jew that does not make me not chosen. Thats my name (Mrs. Chosen). GOD chose me too thats why I serve HIM. He does not love them any more than us gentiles.
GOD loves us equally. So they better die believing Jesus or they will see hell and GOD did promise that.

Jesus said IAM the way the truth and the life. No man (jews are men/woman) comes through the Father except by me.
I'm not talking about in the end. I'm talking about that jew who just died today without Christianity but in judaism.
He died today, and when the dead in Christ shall rise, that wont be him.

Mrs. Chosen,

Sister, if I understand all of your questions correctly, some of your questions will be answered only by God at His appointed time.

However, there is much written in the Holy Bible. It would represent a long, difficult, and arduous Bible study that might involve months or years. Some would lack the patience to complete such a study, and others might lack the health to do such a difficult study. I would probably fall in the health problem category.

Sister, I don't think it is possible to answer your questions in a few short posts or threads. If someone tried, there would still be the unanswered questions that only God knows the answers to. Some of the greatest Old Testament Bible scholars in the world have been and are in Israel. They've had thousands of years to understand Daniel's prophecy, and most of them either reject it or explain it away as fables, parables, or something other than the future truth about Israel.

Sister, the answers you seek about Israel involve many portions of the Holy Bible, both in the Old Testament and the New Testament. In fact, some of the answers you seek represent some of the deepest and most lengthy studies of the Holy Bible. AND, let's not forget that some of the answers you seek can only be answered by GOD. Israel obviously didn't understand all of the promises of God, and they still don't. Does anyone but GOD?

Sister, some of the answers you seek are in the Holy Bible, but some of the specifics you seek might or might not be there without GOD HIMSELF giving the answers, or revealing the specifics at the time HE fulfills the Promises. I would also like to know the answers to many of your questions, but I also have a huge list of questions that don't involve Israel at all.

As an example, the Holy Bible gives some beautiful descriptions of Heaven. I can apply my imagination with the Biblical descriptions, but the Holy Bible tells us that we can't imagine what HE has prepared for us. I won't really know until JESUS takes me home.

Sister, I hope this helps some.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Philippians 4:6-7  Be careful anxious for nothing; but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God. And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding. shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

Who knows where this scriptures is found and what it means?



Apparent Failure of the promises to ISRAEL explained by their unbelief

Brethren, my heart's desire and my prayer to GOD for them is for their salvation.
For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for GOD, but not in accordance with knowledge. For not knowing about GODs righteousness, and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of GOD. For CHRIST is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Rev 13:8

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
KJV

Matt 25:34

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
KJV

Heb 4:3

3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
KJV


 O my! The Cross was not an after thought but the plan of God from the foundation of the world.

Ruth and Rahab are  "grandmothers' of  Jesus

This bothers me becasue i see this as distortion of Holy Scripture. The scripture does say all Jews will be saved it plainly says  'all Israel' again i ask who is man to change the Word of God.

And it bothers me because you will not answer a simple question. It bothers me because if some one does not agree with you THEY need to study or They are not trusting God.  Bronze you do not have all the answers nor do i. If my questions did not bother you, you would answer directly.

1 Tim 2:6

6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
KJV

 Here is a verse that tell us He is the ramsom for 'all' So now in reading this and accepting Gods Word, all are ramsoned correct?

Mrs Chosen quote...

 
 Hello my firey sister!  :D

 I did see any question in your last post. I did see some rather suggestive headings posted above a couple of verses.
such as this one...

 
 What's that heading sugesting? That God's promise was a failure?

 Look, Lisa, my sister - The verse you posted under that heading is Romans 10:1-4

 I'm not sure what the question is, but I'll explain the verse AGAIN.

 I have posted many verses which explain that the Jews were CHOSEN by God and God made an EXCLUSIVE, SPECIAL PROMISE with the JEWS ONLY. God PROMISED the JEWS that they would ALL be FORGIVEN and SAVED. God also pointed out that in order for the rest of the world to be saved the JEWS would STUMBLE (NOT FALL) Jesus came from JEWISH BLOODLINES JESUS HAD TO BE REJECTED by the JEWS otherwise HE WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN CRUCIFIED and that would leave us GENTILES in a rather scarry position.

 The verses you posted are proof that the JEWS had indeed STUMBLED otherwise why would Paul be making such a plea for ISRAEL (JEWS not LAND...Reba) I am not denying that the Jews have rejected Jesus - I'm telling you that it was God's plan that the Jews would STUMBLE and reject Jesus - As I said, if they hadn't have done that we would be doomed.

 What you have done, Lisa, is a made classical mistake which we Christians often do. You have taken out one or two verses and used them out of context. Read the rest of Romans 10 then read Romans 11. That will put everything into it's proper perspective.

 I will post a couple of relevent verses from Romans 11 (AGAIN!) which wrap up the verses you posted from Romans 10.

 Please pay attention!  :D

First of all, here are the verses you posted...

Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.  

Rom 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.  

Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.  

 Now if these verses were all there were on the subject of the Jews, then we would believe they were doomed...right?
These are only the begining of the story...here's the conclusion...

Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, [of] the tribe of Benjamin.  

Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
God has not broken His promis with (His people - Jews)  

Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.  

Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to [the image of] Baal.  
These Jews have remained faithful to God - but God also discusses the rest of the Jews in the following verse...

Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.  
These are the unfaithful Jews - notice how God says they are  under grace?

Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
This verse explains that God has not rejected these unfaithful Jews - That they are under grace - God has a plan in mind for these Jews as you will see shortly.

Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
God is telling us that the faithful Jews  "hath obtained it" and the rest were "blinded" not of their own accord, but they were blinded by God, so that His plan could be fulfilled - as you will see...

To Continue...

Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.  
God caused them to be "blinded"

Rom 11:9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:  

Rom 11:10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
God's will be done.  

Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but [rather] through their fall salvation [is come] unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
This is the reason why God "blinded" the Jews Lisa. God says very clearly that the Jews have not "stumbled" so they should end up in the Lake of Fire - they were "tripped" by God, so that they would not recognise Jesus - that way, Jesus was rejected by His CHOSEN PEOPLE and crucified - so that we GENTILES could be included into God's covenant with the JEWS.

Rom 11:12 Now if the fall of them [be] the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?  
God keeps hammering the Truth of His CHOSEN PEOPLE home, so tha we Gentiles can understand that we are only saved because God ADDED us into the tree of His CHOSEN PEOPLE. God is saying. If their downfall has resulted in salvation for the Gentiles - if their misery is a free ticket for Gentiles to be saved - then how much GREATER will their (JEWS) reward be? Does this sound like the Jews are going to the Lake of Fire to you Lisa?

Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:  

Rom 11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation [them which are] my flesh, and might save some of them.  

Rom 11:15 For if the casting away of them [be] the reconciling of the world, what [shall] the receiving [of them be], but life from the dead?  
Do you understand what Paul is saying here Lisa?
He says that - if the blindness and casting away of the Jews has resulted in Gentiles receiving a chance at salvation - then how much greater it will be when we WELCOME the JEWS!

Rom 11:16 For if the firstfruit [be] holy, the lump [is] also [holy]: and if the root [be] holy, so [are] the branches.  
The Jews are the root - the Gentiles are the grafted in branches. So, we are made Holy because of the root.

Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Here again we are reminded that we are "partakers" not surplanters.  

Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.  
We are warned not to be arrogant against the JEWS - We are AGAIN told - it is because of the "root" that the "branches" exist - not the other way around.

Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
The JEWS were "blinded" so that the GENTILES could see The Light. God keeps reinforcing this Lisa.  

Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:  
Another warning - It is because the JEWS "stumbled" that we are able to receive salvation - DON'T BE ARROGANT!

Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also spare not thee.  
If God broke His promise to His CHOSEN PEOPLE - What makes us so sure He won't do the same to us? (This is a rhetorical question Lisa, but it drives the Truth home.

Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.  

Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
The Jews will be grafted back in.  

Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural [branches], be graffed into their own olive tree?  

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.  

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
This is the culmination of all these verses Lisa. These verses lay out God's plan for all mankind THROUGH THE JEWS.

Rom 11:27 For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.  

Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, [they are] enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, [they are] beloved for the fathers' sakes.  

Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God [are] without repentance.  

Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:  

Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.  

Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.  

Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his judgments, and his ways past finding out!  

Rom 11:34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?  

Rom 11:35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?  

Rom 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, [are] all things: to whom [be] glory for ever. Amen.  

 Do you understand it now my sister?

Bronzsnake

Quote"The JEWS were "blinded" so that the GENTILES could see The Light. God keeps reinforcing this Lisa. "

Bronze the word WERE seems to be past tence in this statement. I know you can not believe that GOD is today putting the blinders on the jews that are being born today.
Salvation has come to us. You are saying GOD is still blinding His people? Okay? So?

You posted
"Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
The Jews will be grafted back in.  "

There is a very important key word in this scipture that you must have ignored completly. Now you posted this verse yet have you any understanding of it?
The key word here is IF. If the abide not still in unbelief, shall be... If means IF. They have a choise. GOD does not have the blinders on anyone today! GOD is not forsing anyone not to see HIM in 2005. Can you come to date with me? God wanted everyone to see that body of water swallow up all of those people. That caused many to wake up I'm sure.
Anyway I wonder what your study Bible has to say on these vearses.
I have the New King James Version Study Bible. I don't know if that is one of your choise, but it is very good.

In reference to these vearse (Romans 11:26)
"And so: That is, "in this way, in the process just described."
 ALL ISRAEL does not mean that every jewish person who has ever lived will be saved, for Paul does not teach that (see 10:2,3). The term must be understood in the same sence as "the fullness of the Gentiles" Paul is therefore speaking in a collective sence."

A very good study Bible is truely helpfull in trying to understand what scriptures mean.

The word of GOD is awesome!!!

Rom 11:26

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
KJV


The scripture clearly states  'all Israel'  why does that bother you so much?

Who is man to change the Word of God?

THe Word  says what it says. Why not just completely trust in His word? Accepting  the word for what it says, Again i ask who is man to change the Word of God?

I know the some of the meanings and uses of the word Israel but that does not give man the freedom to change Gods use of the word at mans will. I dont understand why 'Bible Students' (using that term loosly) feel they have the right to exchange the Words the Holy Spirit inspired.  To change the word Israel to Jew is not in the same catagory as changing  saith to say.

 Reba.

First of all. I am surprised that you feel the need to insult me with the reference to 'Bible Students' (using that term loosely)
Have I even once insulted you like that? We may disagree without that kind of digression my friend.  :D

God changed Jacob's name to Israel. Jacob was the first "Jew" the land of Canaan was renamed after Jacob (Israel)

 When the scriptures say "all Israel" it is a direct and unmistakable reference to all Jews. Even the most average "Bible student" should know this. ;)

Gen 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed   after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

 Please explain that verse to me.

Gen 17:8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.  

 Reba.
Please read the following verses and ask yourself if God is actually speaking of people or rocks and dirt.

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
 How can rocks and dirt be accused of being ungodly Reba?
Does Jesus (The Deliverer) actually come to save people? or rocks and dirt Reba?

Rom 11:27 For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.  

 "them" and "Their" are terms used to describe people, not rocks and dirt Reba.

 Please be patient with me while I do a wee experiment.

 I will substitute the word Israel for rocks and dirt in these verses - then, I will substitute the word Israel for Jews.

 Let's see which one makes the most sense.

Now, if I believe Israel in the context of these verses really means the country, then this is how these scriptures would look...

Rom 11:26 And so all rocks and dirt shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from rocks and dirt:
 
Rom 11:27 For this [is] my covenant unto the rocks and dirt, when I shall take away the rocks and dirt's sins.  

 If I understand the word Israel to mean the Jews, then this is how these verses would look...

Rom 11:26 And so all Jews shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from the Jews:  

Rom 11:27 For this [is] my covenant unto the Jews, when I shall take away sins from the Jews.  

 It's obvious that these verses are directed toward people - not land. We know the people are Jews, because they are identified as the people who God made His covenant with - The Jews.

Bronzesnake

Mrs Chosen quote...

 Yes, I do believe that. God says they will remain in that state until "the fullness of the Gentiles" The fullness of the Gentiles is the Second Coming. Jews can accept Jesus, and those who do will be Raptured - those who do not will accept Jesus during the Tribulation.

 I have stated this stuff over and over Lisa. If you don't, can't, or won't try to understand the scriptures I posted regarding the Jews and God's promise to them, then I can not help you.

M.C. quote...

Here we go again taking a single verse out of context and adding a false message to it. If you read through the ENTIRE verses, you will understand that verse Lisa.

 I didn't think I had to explain every detail to you Lisa - if you read and understood the Romans scriptures in their entirety, you would understand that God says THE JEWS WILL BE FORGIVEN AND SAVED - THEREFORE THEY WILL NOT REMAIN IN UNBELIEF. THE WHOLE LESSON OF THAT VERSE IS DIRECTED AT US GENTILES - GOD IS TELLING US THAT HE CAN AND WILL SAVE THE JEWS REGARDLESS OF WHAT WE BELIEVE.


That's not what God says Lisa.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

 See? God syas the Jews will remain blinded until the second coming.

Should I believe you or God Lisa?




You obviously don't understand the term "the fullness of the Gentiles" That term is used to convey the fulfillment of the Gentiles salvation. Are you telling me that there will be no more Gentiles saved? Is Jesus' house full? - has the harvest already come and gone? of course it hasn't! There is still time for many Gentile people to be saved - There will come a time when it is too late - That time is known as "the fullness of the Gentiles"

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:  

 What does that verse say Lisa? does it say "all faithful Jews shall be saved"? or does it say "some of the Jews shall be saved - or does it say "ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED"?

But why are the Jews so special? we complain...and God says the following...
Rom 11:27 For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

 That's it! I am done! You can deny all these scriptures - you can continue to pick out verses and use them out of context all you like. God's Will Be Done whether we like it or not - whether we understand it or not - whether we think it's fair or not - ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED. So says Almighty God.

Bronzesnake

Reba and Lisa...

 I'm wondering why neither of you two ladies have replied to the "How Can We Trust God If" thread....hmmm  :D

Bronzesnake

Before i even read farther this was not an insult... by loosly i simply ment most of us are not students of some Bible college. nothing more nothing less.
 

now back to the post

JEW

Jew

— the name derived from the patriarch Judah, at first given to one belonging to the tribe of Judah or to the separate kingdom of Judah (2 Kings 16:6; 25:25; Jer 32:12; 38:19; 40:11; 41:3), in contradistinction from those belonging to the kingdom of the ten tribes, who were called Israelites.

During the Captivity, and after the Restoration, the name, however, was extended to all the Hebrew nation without distinction (Est 3:6,10; Dan 3:8,12; Ezra 4:12; 5:1,5).

Originally this people were called Hebrews (Gen 39:14; 40:15; Ex 2:7; 3:18; 5:3; 1 Sam 4:6,9, etc.), but after the Exile this name fell into disuse. But Paul was styled a Hebrew (2 Cor 11:22; Phil 3:5).

The history of the Jewish nation is interwoven with the history of Palestine and with the narratives of the lives of their rulers and chief men. They are now [1897] dispersed over all lands, and to this day remain a separate people, "without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image [R.V. 'pillar,' marg. 'obelisk'], and without an ephod, and without teraphim" (Hos 3:4). Till about the beginning of the present century [1800] they were everywhere greatly oppressed, and often cruelly persecuted; but now their condition is greatly improved, and they are admitted in most European countries to all the rights of free citizens. In 1860 the "Jewish disabilities" were removed, and they were admitted to a seat in the British Parliament. Their number in all is estimated at about six millions, about four millions being in Europe.

There are three names used in the New Testament to designate this people, (1.) Jews, as regards their nationality, to distinguish them from Gentiles. (2.) Hebrews, with regard to their language and education, to distinguish them from Hellenists, i.e., Jews who spoke the Greek language. (3.) Israelites, as respects their sacred privileges as the chosen people of God. "To other races we owe the splendid inheritance of modern civilization and secular culture; but the religious education of mankind has been the gift of the Jew alone."
(from Easton's Bible Dictionary, PC Study Bible formatted electronic database Copyright © 2003 Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


(Jacob) Israel was not bibically called Jew. He was from his grandpa Abe (from the land of Ur then into Cannan) through Isaac . The 'Children of Israel' that  left Egypt were not called the 'Children of Jew' but the 'Children of Israel' I do not refer to Israel as the dirt or land just to the words the scriptures use, plain and simple. Once in a while when talking of modern Israel as in the post about the politics i use the word to mean the country. I will use the term "modern Israel" so there will be no father misunderstanding.


I my view a nation of people does not need to own land to be a nation. When the Children of Israel stopped "owning the land in" Goshen, so to speak, and became slaves to pharoah they were still a nation.  The  Jews at the time of Christ lived in Palistine under the control of Rome. The Children of the man Israel were still a nation. Long before the time of Christ they became known a Jews.

Rocks and dirt are your words Bronze not mine i simply post the scriptures as God seen fit to have them written. In the topic at hand He uses the word Israel and you change it to Jew.



It is not about what you or i understand the word Israel to mean it is what God wrote. Had God wanted the word  Jew to be used He would have used it,  as He did in other locations.

That's fair enough Reba my sister. I wish I was as lucky as those rocks and dirt are going to be.

 If I refuse to understands what the Bible teaches, then the following verses are really going to be confusing...

Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
Just think of it - and actual real dragon with all those heads and horns and crowns!

Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
I guess these "stars" aren't actually fallen angles - they are called "stars" so they must be suns! How big of a tail does this dragon have!  ;)

 Bronzesnake

Bronze you are mixing apples and oranges. Have a nice day.

 I'm doing no such thing Reba. I made the point quite clearly. You said the word Israel as it is used in Romans wasn't a reference to the Jews, but rather the land. I proved that was not correct - unless you believe those verses are describing rocks and dirt being forgiven and saved - and rocks and dirt being referred to as "they" and "their"

You chose to take a single word literal with no regard at all to the context of the word based on the scriptural evidence which exposes what the word actually refers to.

 Therefore - the examples I gave from Revelation, are not a mixing of apples and oranges - they were used in the proper context in relation to your own set of paramaters Reba.

Have a nice day also.  :D

Bronzesnake

Where did i say   You said "the word Israel as it is used in Romans wasn't a reference to the Jews".

Show me the post. You are mistaken Bronze.

Reba quote...

Now I am confused Reba. :-\

 So, you agree then, that all Israel means all Jews?

 Bronzesnake

My point in this has been, as it has in many threads, what the Word says. In this case the Word says Israel many men say  the Word says all Jews will be saved  it does not. I just dislike a doctrine being base on man inturpatation (sp) of what the Word truly says.


 To move on i understand the scripture to read in a way taht tells me something like this... just because a man is born to Jewish parents does not mean he is of the Israel of God.

 When they left Egypt it was with 'a mixed mutitude' . EX 12 :38   The fact that  Rahab was David's "grandmother' and Ruth the 'grandma' of Jesus, are some of the reasons i understand things this way. I believe God perposely 'mixed' the blood line to include those outside. Now this is where we can disagree.    ;D

As a matter of fact, Bronze, I do. Sheol is the HEBREW word characterizing the abode of the dead. In Jewish thought, Sheol is divided into two parts...the upper Sheol, which was also called Paradise, and the lower Sheol, which was the place of the tormented.  Jewish thought also considered the possiblity of an eventual escape from Paradise, but they didn't know how. On the other hand, the place of torment (lower Sheol) carried NO possibility of escape.

Gehenna is the ARAMAIC word used by Jesus to characterize the lower compartment of Sheol, and likend it to the valley of Hinnom (ge bene Hinnom). This valley is located just outside of the old Jerusalem, and was where the inhabitants of Jerusalem took their trash and burned it. Because it was constantly a place of fire, smoke and stench, He used it to illustrate the reality of a place of fire and torment. It also was where, according to Jewish writings, earlier civilizations that preceeded Israel conducted their ritual sacrifices to Moloch. Paul and others referred to this several times when making reference to idol worshipers making their children to "pass through the fire."  See this reference from Easton's topical bible:
( originally Ge bene Hinnom; i.e., "the valley of the sons of Hinnom"), a deep, narrow glen to the south of Jerusalem, where the idolatrous Jews offered their children in sacrifice to Molech ( 2Ch 28:3; 33:6; Jer 7:31; 19:2-6). This valley afterwards became the common receptacle for all the refuse of the city. Here the dead bodies of animals and of criminals, and all kinds of filth, were cast and consumed by fire kept always burning. It thus in process of time became the image of the place of everlasting destruction. In this sense it is used by our Lord in Mat 5:22, 29, 30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15, 33; Mark 9:43, 45, 47; Luk 12:5. In these passages, and also in James 3:6, the word is uniformly rendered "hell," the Revised Version placing "Gehenna" in the margin

Since Jesus used the word "hades" here, gehenna has nothing to do with this. Hades is considered the "lower" part of the abode of the dead, just as with Sheol.  In Biblical Greek it is associated with Orcus, the infernal regions, a dark and dismal place in the very depths of the earth. Hades is the abode of the wicked from which there was no escape, and as such is synonymous with the above description of gehenna.

Since the rich man was (a) in torments, (b) in flame, and (c) needed a cool touch of water for his lips, it would be reasonably safe to assume that he was in lower sheol, aka hades aka gehenna aka hell.

I think I know the difference between the two, don't you?

Next, let's do assume that the "parable" is nothing more than a parable, and not literal. A parable is for the purpose of communicating a spiritual reality. Spiritual reality from the parable then, is that there is a place where people go to that will not be escaped from. Period. Note that in this "parable", Jesus recounts;

And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence Luk 16:26

Doesn't Jesus say here that one CANNOT pass from one place to the other? Or, to put it another way, if one is sent to hades/hell/lower sheol, then one cannot get out of it. It appears that the parabolic rich man was a Jew, since Jesus was speaking to Jews about Jewish things.  Or, if you prefer, he was a "type" of unrighteous Jew, or even the unbelieving among the Jewish nation.

Finally, I would like to draw your attention to the fact that in every parable that Jesus spoke, He draw attention to (a)the fact that it was a parable, or (b) pointed out "xxxxxx is like unto", or similar phraseology. Also, in NONE of His parables did He ever mention a specific name, as He did in this one.  Could it be that He knew a beggar named Lazarus?  And that this person would have been known by name and status to some of His hearers?

When the literal makes sense, make no other sense of it unless it becomes nonsense.



All of the details are important....especially the distinctions found in understanding the compartmentalization of "Sheol", which is much much more than just a grave.  It certainly sounds like you fully believe that you will be standing for eternity in heaven in company with Saul, the witch of Endor, Barabbas, Caiphas, Herod and a few others of the same ilk.


No, Bronze...I didn't add 1 Pet....you did. I was making reference to
Psa 68:18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, [for] the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell [among them].    *and*
Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

But adding also the 1 Pet., we still have the fact that the reference is to leading to heaven those who had been waiting on Him, who had been in Paradise, and who were considered by God to be righteous under the Abrahamic and Sinaitic covenants, but NOT able to receive the promise UNTIL Jesus paid the price.

Why didn't Jesus make the same promise to the other thief, if that is what was going to happen? Could it be because the other thief (a Jew) was NOT going to be in Paradise?



Along with a number of other scriptures. I believe that Jesus spent almost as much time talking about the reality of hell as He did the reality of heaven.


Really?!?
"and in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments... (Luke 16:23)
"....Father Abraham, have mercy on me... (Luke 16:24a)
"...for I am tormented in this flame  (Luke 16:24b)
"...so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us... (Luke 16:26)
"...it is appointed ONCE to man to die, THEN JUDGMENT" (Heb. 9:27)

I suppose torments after death don't have anything to do with punishment or afterlife.


No you don't, Bronze...you just have to rightly divide the entirety of God's Word, and not deny other parts.

I think you aren't reading completely, and are making a bad assumption concerning what I (we) have said about the Jews, so let me make it absolutely clear.
1. The Jews are God's chosen people.
2. He will fulfill His promises to them.
3. At the second coming of Christ, the Jews will recognize and accept Him.
4. Those who believe in Christ, whether predating or post dating His crucifixion, will be saved.
5. Those who are not declared righteous, pre or post, WILL NOT BE SAVED.
6. No one can escape the words of Jesus Himself, very God, when He said NO ONE COMETH TO THE FATHER BUT BY ME, and since the crucifixion and resurrection, there is no more "waiting room" to give ANY men a second chance.

The Jews do NOT have a separate path to God. Those who died prior to Christ were given the opportunity (from Paradise) to accept His sacrifice on their behalf. If they weren't in Paradise waiting, then they didn't get to go. Those who die on this side of the cross don't make it without Him.



I'm sorry.
Then I guess that means we should never try to tell any Jew about Jesus, right?  What's the use?

“I do not set aside the grace of God: for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain” (Galatians 2:21).

.Evangelist my brother...

 I think you aren't reading completely, and are making a bad assumption concerning what I (we) have said about the Jews, so let me make it absolutely clear.

1. The Jews are God's chosen people. I agree I don't think you are concentrating on the word "CHOSEN" what benefit is be CHOSEN if you end up losing everything? Is that how God rewards His CHOSEN people? Especially in light of the fact that it was God who caused the JEWS to reject Jesus!

2. He will fulfill His promises to them. Not according to you and others

3. At the second coming of Christ, the Jews will recognize and accept Him. No my friend - not "the"Jews that's your interpretation. God says "ALL" Jews.

 I re-read my original post to you my friend - and I can see that it may have come across as being slightly arrogant - that's not my intent - perhaps I could have tones it down a wee bit - I am debating for the purpose of getting as full an understanding of God's Word as I can - I promise that if I am shown through scriptures, that I have misunderstood any of God's message - I will openly, and happily admit it, and accept the Truth.

 As for this debate - I am firmly convinced that God made the following declarations.

Gen 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations
for an everlasting covenant , to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
Notice their are no conditions placed on this promise God doesn't say "whosoever believes in me"He does say that to the Gentiles doesn't He? Wonder why that is? hmmm Guess God was having a bad hair day and just forgot to mention that part to His CHOSEN people huh?

 There is a real and distinct difference between this promise and the promise of salvation to the Gentiles. God tells the Jews that His promise with them will be everlasting and the entire race from past present and future will be saved.
 
He doesn't make that promise to Gentiles. With Gentiles, He offers a sacrificial saviour that ALL WHO ACCEPT HIM will be saved. There is a very distinct difference here. That is why God didn't include ALL RACES in His first covenant - He only included the JEW.

 Why do you think He singled out the Jew in His first covenant and not all mankind my friend?

Gen 17:8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.  

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:  

What does that verse say my friend? does it say "all faithful Jews shall be saved"? or does it say "some of the Jews shall be saved - or does it say "ALL ISRAEL SHALL
BE SAVED"? AS IT IS WRITTEN

But why are the Jews so special? we complain...and God says the following...
Rom 11:27 For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

 See my friend. God doesn't make grammatical mistakes. His covenant with the Jews is all encompassing. God caused the Jews to be "blinded" so that we could have a chance of salvation. That's the point some of us are missing. God made the Jews blind for our sake. There reward will be ALL JEWS WILL BE SAVED and RECEIVE
 ISRAEL FOR AN EVERLASTING POSSESSION.

 Some of us are missing this important difference between the Jews and the Gentiles. God caused the Jews to be "BLINDED" God caused the JEWS to REJECT JESUS. We Gentiles have a choice whether to accept Jesus or reject Jesus - God has NOT BLINDED the Gentiles. Therefore we are responsible for asking Jesus into our lives or turning away. The JEWS did not have this same choice when God made His covenant with them. This is fundamental to understanding why God chose the Jews and what the reward would be bestowed upon the JEWS for being His chosen people.

 Why are the Jews called "CHOSEN"?  if I accept your opinion, then we are ALL God's Chosen people - that is just not true

Bronzesnake

Apparent Failure of the promises to ISRAEL explained by their unbelief

Brethren, my heart's desire and my prayer to GOD for them is for their salvation.
For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for GOD, but not in accordance with knowledge. For not knowing about GODs righteousness, and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of GOD. For CHRIST is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
Quote"I did see any question in your last post. I did see some rather suggestive headings posted above a couple of verses.
such as this one...

Quote:
Apparent Failure of the promises to ISRAEL explained by their unbelief
 

What's that heading sugesting? That God's promise was a failure?

Look, Lisa, my sister - The verse you posted under that heading is Romans 10:1-4"


1 Question Bronze. What kind of Bible are you reading? I'm not being sarcastic, I'm really asking you. I use a few but mostly The New King James. The heading for Romans 10:1-4 was taken from the bible and not my own words. So that leads me to believe your lack of understanding in the bible.
The same heading in different translations:

Israel Needs the Gospel, Salvation Is Open to All

Apparent failure of the promises to Israel explained by their unbelief

Isreals Unbelief

Romans 11:20-21 (New King James Version)
 
20Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.

If God did not spare the natural branches...
what does that say?
P.s. why would I respond to the other post when all of my answers are here. Besides I have no issues with trusting GOD.
The jews that die with out Christ today will see hell. Because the only souls that will be rising from the dead (at the appointed time) will be THE DEAD IN CHRIST.

Lisa.

 The heading in your Bible are not found in the origional manuscripts...didn't you know that?

 I keep coming back to this debate even though I said I was finished with it.

 It's like banging my head against a wall - read Romas 10 & 11 try and grasp the totality of those chapters, instead of hanging your hat onto a "heading" or a "name" Ask yourself why God only referes to the Jews and "His Chosen people" there is obviously a distinction between the "chosen" and the rest of us. That's easy enough to grasp, especially if someone is an English major! Why didn't God include all people in the first covenant? Why only the Jews? THINK ABOUT THAT! There are TWO covenants - why did God make Two, and not just one for everyone?

Once you can answer these question, you should be much closer to the Truth. Keep ignoring these questions and you will remain baffled.

 It's been....interesting.

That's all folks!
I hope. :-\

Bronzesnake

you win!! Bronze you win.
GOD has forsed the jews to reject HIM so they don't have free will. They are made to turn away and then they will bemade to love him and accept HIM. And the ones that die without accepting HIM right now just get to get in because believing in Jesus today does not apply to them. They can die right now without HIM yet still get in. Wow, it's funny because GOD is still saving people left and right but they have to be blind through it all. But what about the jews that have accepted JESUS, did GOD unblind them and blind a bunch of the other jews? So when Jesus came He didn't come for the jews, he only came for us. Because you are telling me that no matter if they die right now with or without Jesus they are gonna rise and be caught up . How could Jesus just come for the gentiles when we all needed a saviour?  They were blind but they have a choise today! And some jews have chosen Jesus.

I just don't anyone to think that just because their mom and dad were jewish that they need not except Jesus right now while they are living and breathing. Now is the time!!!!!!!

Heb 8:6-8

6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
KJV

Heb 13:20

20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
KJV

John 6:53-58

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
KJV

  Hi I am wondering when the Bible talks of the Jews is He talking of one of the twelve tribes of Isreal Judea?

  And when God speaks of Isreal (excuse spelling) is He not speaking of the people Isreal and not the nation?


      Thank You:   Brian.

   
 

Brian  i think the nation is the people could be be thinking of the country?

Hi Again:  

   Thanks for your reply. The reason I asked this question is besides Judea there are 11 other tribes of Isreal and just wondering where they are today?

  So when God speaks to Isreal I am wondering what of the other 11 tribes could it be that the U.S.A. ,Canada, Britan , and others are also part of the tribes of Isreal???


     Thank You.

     Your Brother in Christ:  Brian

 Not at all my friend. There are some quazi-christian cults out there such as JW who teach that the 144,000 chosen by God from the twelve tribes of Israel are their membership. In the beging, the JW taught that once their members reached this 144,000 number, that God would end the world, and wisk all 144,000 up to Heaven. When their membership bypassed this "majical" number, they re-wrote their teaching, and now the 144,000 are the "elite" members of their cult which go to Heaven, the rest will go to "paradise"  ::)

 The Bible teaches that when the Roman army under General Vespasian, conquered Israel and destroyed the temple, that the Twelve tribes (All Jews) were scattered throughout the world. The Bible also teaches that one of the prophetic signs of the end times, is that the scattered Jews would return home. We can witness this happening today, with Jews from all corners of the globe returning to the homeland.

 The 144,000 spoken of by God are all Jews. The Bible clearly teaches this - 12,000 Jews from each tribe - you'll notice that the tribes are all listed by name. Ask yourself if these sound like European descended names, or are they Jewish names.

 These 144,000 are peotected by God during the final seven year Tribulation period, and they will preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ, in order to fulfill God's promise that All Jews will accept Jesus and therefore, all Jews will be saved.

Bronzesnake

Wow  you see when I first relly got involved in searching I got into have you heard of the worldwide church of God with Herbert. W. Armstrong. Well after prision they would check up and I was still smoking cigerretts and was not allowed to attend sabbath only the Bible study they said they had to protect the flock and after that I just fell away. I am not blaming them for falling away as I am responsible for my own actions.

 Now I do pray for God to lead me and let The Holy Spirit teach me.

 All I know now is Jesus shed His blood for my sins and that is where the starting point is.

 I feel I was lead to this site for fellowship and scripture disscussion because at first after quitting drugs and alcohol its pretty lonely and this site helps me stay focused because I have been led to different cults in the past even attend places where they pray to spirits and even though in these places I would pray to jesus I new it was not right.  So I like to ask questions and learn and I thank God and you people for being His instruments in helping me :D


   With Love and Respect:

   Your Brother in Christ: Brian

Brother Brian,

Here is one question that will help you tremendously in finding a church that is not a cult. Ask them if Jesus Christ is Almighty God?

If they say no, they are a cult and false teachers. Some churches that call themselves Christian teach that Jesus Christ was just a man, or just a prophet, or just a creation, or just a brother of Lucifer who was made into a god, just an angel, or just anything else than Almighty God.

God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are ONE ALMIGHTY GOD. Jesus Christ is Almighty God - THE CREATOR OF ALL.

Brother, I'm sorry to tell you this, but Herbert Armstrong denies that Jesus Christ is Almighty God. They are a cult.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Colossians 3:17  And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

Bronzesnake
You are dead wrong on this one-
OK, right off the top...I have posted many scriptures which have God emphatically, unequivocally stating and even restating that the Jews will never be rejected, and that the Jews will ALL be forgiven and saved. I even tried to present God's final plan (Tribulation) in which He completes His task and fulfills His promises.

Let me quote Jesus-
John 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks it out of his own possessions; for he is a liar and the father of it.

Matthew 8:10 When Jesus heard this, he was astonished and said to those following him, “I tell you the truth, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. 11I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Paul called the Jews who were of the circumcision dogs. Not all Israel are Israel but only those Jews who are of the faith of Jesus Christ.

It is true that all Israel will be saved but true Israel are those who put there trust in Jesus Christ otherwise they will die in their sin.

You interpret Romans 11 wrongly my friend.

asaph

How can I say AMEN in each language?

Follow me to a place where it is evident that jews are suppose to open up their eyes. Yes they were blinded, but when Jesus left, the word went forth and many jews believed.

"Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."
Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"
Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."
And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation." Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them. And they continued steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers. Then fear came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were done through the apostles."

Acts 2:36-43 (New King James Version)

Dito post but I had to bring it over here too.



Blind for a time and a purpose. The jews were blind for a reason. We are the reason. But follow me to Acts where I can clearly show you the blinders must come off.


 11Now as the lame man who was healed held on to Peter and John, all the people ran together to them in the porch which is called Solomon's, greatly amazed. 12So when Peter saw it, he responded to the people: "Men of Israel, why do you marvel at this? Or why look so intently at us, as though by our own power or godliness we had made this man walk? 13The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified His Servant Jesus, whom you delivered up and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let Him go. 14But you denied the Holy One and the Just, and asked for a murderer to be granted to you, 15and killed the Prince of life, whom God raised from the dead, of which we are witnesses. 16And His name, through faith in His name, has made this man strong, whom you see and know. Yes, the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.
    17"Yet now, brethren, I know that you did it in ignorance, as did also your rulers. 18But those things which God foretold by the mouth of all His prophets, that the Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. 19Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, 20and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before,[a] 21whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began. 22For Moses truly said to the fathers, "The LORD your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. 23And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.' 24Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have also foretold[c] these days. 25You are sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, "And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.'[d] 26To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities."

Acts 3:11-26 (New King James Version)
Vearse 17 and 18 are very important. It says you were blind and I understand, but now you must see.

Bronze:
In re your interpretation and understanding of "all" to mean literally every Jew who has ever lived since Abraham, I would like for you to consider the following.

all - pas
1) individually
   a) each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything
2) collectively
   a) some of all types
++++
 ... "the whole world has gone after him" Did all the world go after Christ? "then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan." Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem, baptized in Jordan? "Ye are of God, little children", and the whole world lieth in the wicked one". Does the whole world there mean everybody? The words "world" and "all" are used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture, and it is very rarely the "all" means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts -- some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not restricted His redemption to either Jew or Gentile ...
 C.H. Spurgeon from a sermon on Particular Redemption


From Jamieson, Fausett & Brown commentary on Romans 11
specific commentary by David Brown

26, 27. And so all Israel shall be saved--To understand this great statement, as some still do, merely of such a gradual inbringing of individual Jews, that there shall at length remain none in unbelief, is to do manifest violence both to it and to the whole context. It can only mean the ultimate ingathering of Israel as a nation, in contrast with the present "remnant." (So THOLUCK, MEYER, DE WETTE, PHILIPPI, ALFORD, HODGE). Three confirmations of this now follow: two from the prophets, and a third from the Abrahamic covenant itself.

First, as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and
       shall--or, according to what seems the true reading, without the "and"--"He shall"
       turn away ungodliness from Jacob--The apostle, having drawn his illustrations of man's sinfulness chiefly from Psa 14:1-7  , now seems to combine the language of the same two places regarding Israel's salvation from it [BENGEL]. In the one place the Psalmist longs to see the "salvation of Israel coming out of Zion" ( Psa 14:7 ); in the other, the prophet announces that "the Redeemer (or, 'Deliverer') shall come to (or 'for') Zion" ( Isa 59:20 ). But as all the glorious manifestations of Israel's God were regarded as issuing out of Zion, as the seat of His manifested glory ( Psa 20:2 110:2 Isa 31:9 ), the turn which the apostle gives to the words merely adds to them that familiar idea. And whereas the prophet announces that He "shall come to (or, 'for') them that turn from transgression in Jacob," while the apostle makes Him say that He shall come "to turn away ungodliness from Jacob," this is taken from the Septuagint version, and seems to indicate a different reading of the original text. The sense, however, is substantially the same in both. Second,
 

       27. For--rather, "and" (again); introducing a new quotation.
       this is my covenant with them--literally, "this is the covenant from me unto them."
       when I shall take away their sins--This, we believe, is rather a brief summary of Jer 31:31-34  than the express words of any prediction, Those who believe that there are no predictions regarding the literal Israel in the Old Testament, that stretch beyond the end of the Jewish economy, are obliged to view these quotations by the apostle as mere adaptations of Old Testament language to express his own predictions [ALEXANDER on Isaiah, &c.]. But how forced this is, we shall presently see.
 

       28, 29. As concerning the Gospel they are enemies for your sakes--that is, they are regarded and treated as enemies (in a state of exclusion through unbelief, from the family of God) for the benefit of you Gentiles; in the sense of Rom 11:11, 15 .
       but as touching, the election--of Abraham and his seed.
       they are beloved--even in their state of exclusion for the fathers' sakes.
 

       29. For the gifts and calling--"and the calling"
       of God are without repentance--"not to be," or "cannot be repented of." By the "calling of God," in this case, is meant that sovereign act by which God, in the exercise of His free choice, "called" Abraham to be the father of a peculiar people; while "the gifts of God" here denote the articles of the covenant which God made with Abraham, and which constituted the real distinction between his and all other families of the earth. Both these, says the apostle, are irrevocable; and as the point for which he refers to this at all is the final destiny of the Israelitish nation, it is clear that the perpetuity through all time of the Abrahamic covenant is the thing here affirmed. And lest any should say that though Israel, as a nation, has no destiny at all under the Gospel, but as a people disappeared from the stage when the middle wall of partition was broken down, yet the Abrahamic covenant still endures in the spiritual seed of Abraham, made up of Jews and Gentiles in one undistinguished mass of redeemed men under the Gospel--the apostle, as if to preclude that supposition, expressly states that the very Israel who, as concerning the Gospel, are regarded as "enemies for the Gentiles' sakes," are "beloved for the fathers' sakes"; and it is in proof of this that he adds, "For the gifts and the calling of God are without repentance." But in what sense are the now unbelieving and excluded children of Israel "beloved for the fathers' sakes?" Not merely from ancestral recollections, as one looks with fond interest on the child of a dear friend for that friend's sake [DR. ARNOLD]--a beautiful thought, and not foreign to Scripture, in this very matter (see 2Ch 20:7 Isa 41:8 ) --but it is from ancestral connections and obligations, or their lineal descent from and oneness in covenant with the fathers with whom God originally established it. In other words, the natural Israel--not "the remnant of them according to the election of grace," but THE NATION, sprung from Abraham according to the flesh--are still an elect people, and as such, "beloved." The very same love which chose the fathers, and rested on the fathers as a parent stem of the nation, still rests on their descendants at large, and will yet recover them from unbelief, and reinstate them in the family of God.

It is absolutely mandatory (as you have also stated) that ALL of Gods Word must be considered, and balanced, and reconciled.....such is "rightly dividing".  You have then posted a number of scriptures that justify your understanding of "all".  

Unfortunately, there are certain scriptures that have also been posted that were contradictory to yours, if understood ONLY in the light of "all" being "all inclusive individually."

I believe that you would be in full agreement that such a condition can not exist...the Word of God does not contradict itself.

The resolution and reconciliation of those seemingly contradictory passages can ONLY be done in the light of understanding "all" as to be NOT inclusive individually of every Jew who ever lived....it simply means that all of the Jews who are alive at the time Jesus returns and ACCEPT Him will be saved, and that all of the NATION of Israel (as a national entity, government, place) will also be saved.

One cannot escape the absolute truth and import of Jesus' own words concerning salvation:

Speaking to a Jew, Nicodemus:
"...you MUST be born again"

Speaking to a Jewish audience:
"...NO ONE comes to the Father but by me"

Speaking to a group of Jews:
"...WHOSOEVER believeth in me shall have eternal life...and whosoever believeth NOT shall have eternal damnation"

Finally, it would be much appreciated by me (and probably a few others), if you would refrain from such comments as:

That smacks of a spiritual arrogance that is quite unseemly.  

One final question:

Where is Judas "the son of perdition" during eternity?

Well said Evangelist.

My thoughts…

Doctrines of exclusion are not scriptural in my view. Many scriptures have been posted in this thread showing the misguided ness of such teaching. Also a doctrine that subtlety changes the Word to fit its needs  (changing the word Israel to Jew) is a doctrine to be wary of.


Getting flippant answers to questions that arise when trying to understand someone’s view. ( I did answer you just didn’t like the answer or if you don’t know I wont tell ya sorta answers ). The question in mind just now is  ‘what makes a person a Jew?’ As in how much Jewish blood does one need to be called Jewish.  No real answer.

In my almost 60 years and being a preachers kid. I have seen many doctrines and groups on the edge. I have seen many folks slip over. One of my brothers has never been able to get the ‘cult’ out of him (over done discipleship of the 70’s) although he is out of the cult. This shows in him in always having to be right, he never listens has a closed mind and heart. Surrounds himself with like thinkers.

The caring and love Mr. Bepster shows here in the forums over powers his acceptance of this view of scripture being discussed. Not all have the ability to he has in stating his beliefs and showing how much he cares.

 Just the other day I was disscussing the Judas question with my brother in law and to me its a mystery.

  The reason I say that is, did not someone have to deliver Jesus to the romans to fullfill God,s plan?

  Please do not take this the wrong way as I am just curious.

  In a way did not we all deliver Christ to be crucified?

  I do not think really anyone can say whats going to happen but God Himself.

   That certainly is quite a question one in which I do not know.

  We do not even know if Judas asked to be forgiven do we?

   I realize he killed himself, but on other threads I read that that all sins are forgiven ,past present , and future.

  At any rate I do not know this question.

   Your Brother in Christ: Brian

This is a question that has perplexed Christians throughout the years. The Bible does tell us that Judas repented of this sin.

Mat 27:3  Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
Mat 27:4  Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.


Is Judas forgiven and would go to heaven? Did not Jesus say, "Luk 23:34  Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots."

 

John 17:12

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
KJV

This is true but lost in what manner. As in going to hell or in the physical sense? Jesus said "while I was with them in the world". And the word "perdition" means ruin or loss of a physical, spiritual or eternal nature. So which is it physical, spiritual or eternal?

This is the reason that the debate of whether Judas is going to heaven or hell has been on going. The scriptures are really not clear here and can be understood as meaning either or perhaps both.

PR....while it is true that Judas "repented", he apparently didn't do so to the right authority.  Notice also that he "saw that he was condemned."  His vocalization of his sin was to the chief priests and elders. Additionally, it appears that his repentence dealt more with the money than with anything else, since all he did was return the money and whine.  Was he trying to do the same thing that Simon Magus did when he attempted to buy the Holy Spirit from Peter?

If we accept that Jesus' ..."Father, forgive them" was a blanket forgiveness to ALL of mankind, that would then fall into the category of universal salvation, regardless.  IMO, the forgiveness at this point is expressed towards those specific individuals who were crucifying Him, especially since it is followed by a reference to what these "knowing not what they do" individuals promptly did....cast lots on His garment.

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.  

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

 Obviously, some of these people who were dead and found here at the Great White Throne judgement are going to be saved - otherwise why would God open the book of life?

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.  

 It seems as though there is escape from hell afterall.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.  

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Tjis verse infers that some are found written in the book of life...who could these people be? JEWS!

 So here it is folks - at the Great White Throne judgement we have some "mysterious" people who are taken up from "hell" (which is supposed to be inescapable) and are going to be saved!

 The Great White Throne judgement is supposed to be a judgement for all those who rejected Jesus - yet, here we see that somehow, some of these folks were found in the book of life! We all know that any Gemtile who rejected Jesus and is at the Great White Throne judgememt is on thier way to the Lake of Fire - except the Jews because God said ALL JEWS would be saved - and gere they are folks!

Goodnight Irene!

Bronzesnake

John 5:28-29

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
KJV

 This doesn't challenge my last post in the least Reba - unless you believe all of us go through the Great White Throne judgement.

Bronzesnake

Posting a scripture is not a challenge, unless your looking for one.

I guess this would be a topic for another thread  but i will ask any way.  
How many resurrections do you all read in the scriptures, if ya answer please be clear about body and/or spirit.

Reba !??

 This is the second time you have made me out to be
A) Biblically ignorant
B) Aggressive and hostile.(looking for a challenge)

 You can't pretend that we haven't been debating God's covenants - and that I started this thread as a direct result of your (and others) opposing view. I can assure you I am not hotly striking away at my keyboard with bloody fingertips and foam bubbling around my mouth. I am a civil person who believes in the benefits of doctrinal discussion. We aren't born with knowledge - we acquire it over time, and sometimes through debate.

It's not sarcastically motivated - I am not waiting to jump on your every post - I disagree with you - yes - but by default you disagree with me also. So every time you post a reply to a specific topic, which we disagree on - isn't it natural for me to assume you posted it to further your argument? I am not angry - I am not upset in the least - and I am certainly not throwing out any "challenges" my sister.

Bronzesnake

We all read in a post what we see. What we see is not always what is posted.


Where did i make you out to be bibically ignorant?

Bronze challenge is your word.

 These comments were all in response to my belief of what the scriptures say about God's promise to the Jews Reba.

 Therefore, at the very least - by way of default, these remarks were directed at me - even if you won't admit it Reba. Who else are you debating against on this thread?

I don't like the way this whole thing is digressing (myself included)  :( It gives the impression that we are angry at each other and I am definately not angry. However, I felt that I had to answer your last post.

Bronzesnake

Please read Acts.



"Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."
Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"
Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."


Now if all jews were indeed blind what were these guys doing seeing. Luke states that the promise of Jesus Christ is 1st for the jews. These jews got saved this day. Now there brothers who didn't can't say "well, we were still blind"

Bronze instead oh holding so tighly to an opinion be open to receive and take this up with HIM. See the point is GOD didn't break a promise, man just don't understand the promise. The promise is Jesus. He came and they were to see after He left. Thats why jews were getting saved in Acts. If they were blind then how could they see?


P.S. I know the scriptures already, no need to repost them. ;D
Please just answer me the question above.

Did you see this Bronze or do you believe me to be a lier?

Wont admit what?

 I have address most of the post in this thread, maybe all of em, to you. In my posting i try and enclude all who are  reading and posting but do address often to a fellow poster. Parden my grammar but you get the idea.

 I didn't say all Jews were blinded. Read the verses again Lisa. God says there was a "faithful" remnant - and the rest were blinded until the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled.

Bronzesnake

 Of course I read it. Who are you disagreeing with on this topic Reba? That remark, whether you admit it or not, was directed at me, and anyone else who disagrees with your intpretations of this subject. Do you honestly think I believe you were knocking everyone in general, including yourself?  

Are you telling me that you "exchange words the Holy Spirit inspires"? This is what you accused me of doing Reba.



 The entirety of the statement makes it perfectly clear that you are directing that comment at people who you believe "exchange words the Holy Spirit inspired" In this case that would be me. It's a direct attack on my understanding of the word "Israel"

Reba, I understand that we all get passionate about our Biblical beliefs, and at times we all make comments we probably shouldn't have made. But at least be honest about it when you do.

Bronzesnake

"Do you honestly think I believe you were knocking everyone in general, including yourself?"  I didn't feel my words were 'knock ' to anyone. i simple meant most of use are not in a Bible college as Bible students but are students of His word.


"Are you telling me that you "exchange words the Holy Spirit inspires"? This is what you accused me of doing Reba."


What is the scripture that states ALL THE JEWS WILL BE SAVED?

 

Reba my sister.

I have decided to discontinue our debate. We are just arguing against each other and not discussing the actual topic.
I am just as guilty as anyone in getting caught up in this foolish bickering.
So I'm done with it - before it gets out of hand.

love ya little lady!  :D

Bronzesnake

Brothers and Sisters,

This thread has gotten a little bit warm, but it has caused many to study their Bibles. There is a lot here to study from many perspectives. It appears that the discussion has gone so far that now there is misunderstanding and people getting upset.

Let's have a group hug and all take a chill pill.   :D

I love all of you.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 8:38-39 For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Amen bep!

 Bronzesnake :-[

Good point!  I was just being humored (no offense meant to the parties involved) by how we often argue to justify our arguments.  Y'all were arguing to justify your arguing!  I just found that humorous cause I do it all the time.  Anyway.  Go on.  Continue debating.  It's been very pleasant reading apart from the humor!   :) ;)

 :-[

Bronzesnake

I'm a Jew,........and I'm jumpin'for Jesus ;D

 Yeeehaaah!  :D

Bronzesnake

 :D  I'm Scotch-Irish-Cherokee, and JESUS, my Lord and Saviour, has adopted me and given me a full inheritance as a Child of GOD. I'm just a visitor here on earth for a short journey, and my visa will expire soon. My home and citizenship is in Heaven. Thank you JESUS!


Thank you Jesusinme. Your post made me happy and put a smile on my face.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Revelation 21:23  And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

"Thank you Jesusinme. Your post made me happy and put a smile on my face"..     You are most welcome. your response to my post brought me here:
       
Proverbs 16:24 Pleasant words are as sweet as an honeycomb,sweet to the soul, and health to the bones.
 
I pray you are well BEP

Bronzesnake,
Paul answers your argument very plainly.
Galatians 3
16Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

If any man be in Christ he is a new creature. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile. If a Jew is not in the seed (Christ) he is simply not saved and will face the lake of fire if he rejects Christ in this life.

Romans 9
6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

   7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

   8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Please let's rightly interpret scripture with scripture.

I myself am the seed of Abraham by faith in Jesus Christ, am a part of Israel because I am a child of the promise by faith in Jesus.

Gal 3
29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

asaph

asaph quote...

  My friend, that is very condescending.

 I'm not going to get into this whole debate again. If you read all my posts on this topic carefully, you will see that I actually agree with what you just posted.
My entire point is that the Jews will all accept Jesus. that is in the scriptures. So, yes - without Jesus we are doomed, even the Jews.

Bronzesnake

I'm sorry. I did not feel condescending when I wrote it.
Will those Jews that died without Christ be saved at the ressurrection?
asaph

Fish swims up to the bait...sniffs it and swims away!  :D

Bronzesnake

Whatever.

Bronzesnake,
I am not going to divide over this issue. If you want to think that some people get saved just because they are the natural descendants of Abraham it's ok. I still receive you as a brother. But ask yourself how do you reconcile the verses I quoted above with that beleif? Paul wrote those verses too. I think they should define what he meant by "all" Israel.
Any way, our minds seem to be set, so no reason to further argue over this. We'll let the readers decide. No hard feelings.

asaph

 This is only my belief on what the scriptures are saying my friend. I could be wrong - then again, so could you.

We'll know soon enough my friend.

Bronzesnake

Hi,

Do you guys all really think that we will see the rapture in this generation?

Thom

Hello Thom,

Yes, I believe the RAPTURE could be today or soon.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 37:18  The LORD knoweth the days of the upright: and their inheritance shall be for ever.

lets say that the rapture was today and someone that was saved was cought up, and their car was left behind and it smashes into a car that a non Jesus jew was driving and as a result of that accident the jew dies that night. Will that jew go to heaven?????

 I should probably kick myself for posting on this topic again, but I do want to clarify something Silver...

 It's not based solely on heritage my friend - it's based on a promise made by God.

 We're not saved solely because we claim to be Christians either - we're saved because God promised us we would be saved if we accepted Him.

 I won't regurgitate my arguments on this topic - if you want to know where I stand, just read my posts.

Bronzesnake

Broonze,
just yes or no.

lets say that the rapture was today and someone that was saved was cought up, and their car was left behind and it smashes into a car that a non Jesus jew was driving and as a result of that accident the jew dies that night. Will that jew go to heaven?????

I won't regurgitate my arguments on this topic - if you want to know where I stand, just read my posts.

Bronzesnake

Broonze would it hurt for you to do me a little favor. Just a little itty bitty one?
Thats all I'm asking.
just type me a few letters.

Yes/no

i gotta have your answer.
I can't sleep :'(

 I'm wondering if all you want is amunition to attack with, or, if you truely want to understand my belief on this subject. I have made myself clear, and all my posts are here to read.

 The Jews who do not accept Jesus and die will be resurrected at the second coming, and will accept Jesus at that time.

 Bronzesnake

"Jews don’t need to be ‘saved’; they’re already God’s chosen people. Even the New Testament says ‘so all Israel shall be saved.’"

The gospel was first preached to the Jews. They were commanded to repent and trust the Savior (Acts 2:38), and warned that if they didn’t repent, they would perish (Luke 13:3). John the Baptist preached fearful words to those who, simply because they were Jews, thought that they need not repent. The Bible says, "Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who has warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say to you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children to Abraham. And now also the axe is laid to the root of the trees: every tree therefore which brings not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire" (Luke 3:7–9).

This is taken from Kirk Cameron's website www.livingwaters.com

 It's way beyond that - she's actually pounding it's bones into dust so the giant from Jack and the beanstock can make bread with the horse-bone flour!  :D

Bronzesnake

Oh guys please!
I was doing some research and studies and I came across this and I said to my self "hey we were talking alot about that and just wanted to share with everyone. Notice they are someones words and not my own.
Also this topic won't seem to go away!!! For some reason it has not made it to the 2nd page yet.
So I may be beating that dead horse but who's to say the horse won't have everlasting life and get back up? ;D

I'm crazy yall just ignor me!!! ;) :D

Just throwing in a thought here:


Why would Paul wish himself accursed for the saving grace to befall his people if that grace were a forgone conclusion?  And why would God say that birth alone doesn't make a Jew a Jew?  And why only a "remnant" instead of the whole?

Let me just say that I don't understand the whole kit and kaboodle.  I just think that the scripture is pretty clear on this matter.  Could be wrong.  Have been before.  WAIT!!!!!!![/b]  No.  The world's still spinning and the sky has not fallen.  WOW!!! I can be wrong!   :D

Later.

But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but "Through Isaac shall your offspring be named." This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring

 Ishmael is the father of Islam - his father was Abram - he was not included in the promise - he is not a Jew, even though he was descended from Abram.

 God will keep His promise to His chosen people - This has been my contention all along. Some of you keep arguing about who is and is not a Jew - I'm saying "whoever" God knows as a Jew will be saved, as God has promised.

 Please - let it go!  :D

Bronzesnake

[qoute]I'm saying "whoever" God knows as a Jew will be saved, as God has promised.

Please - let it go!

Amen to that Bronze. ;D

Whew, I thought they'd never stop!!! LOL.

Yah, but...


 ;D

 Well there's that and...  :D ;D
This is as bad as a "farewell" Who concert!  :D

Bronzesnake

 right on dude.  there is a wiccan female at my school and she says i serve the devil because i am a christian and not of her religion.

if i were you i would be laughing in her face...be like hmmm...where do you guys call half your so called powers from.  I believe its from Satan.  But our God is their Satan so be like okay.  They are scared of God.

Zaddikimyah quote...


 I knew you'd eventually show your true colours. Your post has been removed.

This type of anti-Jesus will not be tollerated here.

This is your first and final warning.

Moderator.

I have gotten about two pages into this debate and just felt compelled to jump in here in defense of Mrs. Chosen's standpoint.  If someone is truly a born-again Christian, not merely a professing hypocrite, how could you even think upon accepting the notion that a Christ-rejector is or ever will be saved?  Be it far from all of us to fathom.  Jesus was speaking to the Jews when He said, "he that believeth NOT is condemned already."  Plain and simple.  Without Christ, no man shall see God.  He is our Holiness.  What are we arguing about.  If all the Jews shall be saved merely because of their bloodline, isn't this grossly unfair to all of the Philistines, Hittites, etc.  Why one bloodline and not the other?  I thought that God had "no respect of persons"?  Of course, He doesn't, and Mrs. Chosen, stand stand stand and do not move because on the Bible you are.

OKAY JEsus SavedMe
I hear ya!
Thank you. come see about me and my ministry @ www.freewebs.com/mrschosen  it's just my ministry site.

 So............are the Jews really a cult? Just kidding,Just kidding,Just kidding.Please do not dignify this question with a response!!!

I visted your website and read your testimony Mrs. Chosen.  God bless you...great is your reward in heaven!  Stand strong my sister in Christ...