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Yes, I believe most of Christianity today is made up of unregenerate folks.  You say, “You are judging.”  Yes, I am judging just like you are judging that most are regenerate.  

Don’t think for a minute that I haven’t had the below this preached to me first and applied it to my life first.  Now it is your turn if you will receive it.

Why do I say this?  2 reasons mainly:

1. I read a lot of the old saints from 1580 to 1850 or say (not much later).  

These folks were different than we are today.  

They were separated, focused for God, easily conceited of sin, understood sin, had a real devotion and love to a Biblical Jesus Christ, had a true willingness to give Christ their all including their lives, a daily time with God that was truly rich and real, had a genuine love for God’s word that in turn caused their lives to governed and ruled by the scriptures at all costs, and finally….they understood what happened to them at Calvary.  In other words they understood the doctrine of justification like we do not today which leads me to my second reason:

2. The average “saint” today doesn’t have a clue as to what took place at Calvary 2000 years ago.   The lack of understanding of this subject is appalling!

The “tion” words of Romans are unknown to them to the point where they are not discussed at all today (justification, redemption, propitiation, adoption, glorification, sanctification, etc.).

I believe the saint’s heavenly position as expounded by the apostle Paul in Ephesians and Colossians is almost unheard of today.  

I believe the average “saint” today cannot write out their salvation experience and have it match the doctrine laid down by Paul.  

I believe the average “saint” today could not write out a short thesis on the doctrine of justification or salvation from memory using Bible words.

I believe the average “saint” today doesn’t even know where he is going when he dies.  They are not sure whether or not they are going to heaven, an earthly kingdom, or the New Jerusalem.

I believe the average “saint” today cannot verbally give a clear, biblical plan of salvation to another person that lines up with Paul’s gospel.

Some of the reasons for the above are:

I believe the average “saint” today has no absolute final authority for his doctrine – all he has is multiple, reliable or unreliable modern versions which contradict one another which has led to doubting and almost total confusion.  His multiple authorities range from, the “Bible” (whatever or wherever that is), his church, his church leaders, Greek/Hebrew manuscripts, language scholars, professors, the ‘word of God’ (whatever or wherever that is), and finally his own Adamic nature.

I believe the average “saint” today will do almost anything to get along with everybody else so as not to upset his or her standing amongst the “brethren”.  This has lead to shallow bible study, compromise, and weak, anemic, saints with no convictions or true courage.

I believe the average “saint” today has cast off the old hymns that built up the lives of saints and have replaced them with worldly, man-centered, fleshly, and fluffy songs written primarily to make money that during the coming tough times will not be enough to get the true saint through.

We have replaced individual efforts with monster, worldly, business-like, man-centered, methods designed to bring in the masses while compromising Biblical convictions so as not to “offend” the sinner with such things as sin, hell, and judgment.  

Big is better – gain is godliness – small is unspiritual is the motto.

I believe the average “saint” today has replaced the great writers and writings of the past for the modern “fluff”, moneymaking, soft, weak, shallow, books of the today designed to be read quickly and easily.  The motto, “Make people happy, make them feel good about themselves, nothing negative, make them feel how wonderful they are” while ignoring what the Bible actually says about them.  

Sound, doctrinal, expositional Bible preaching and teaching has been replaced with entertainment, choirs, Super Bowl parties, family life buildings, sports, gyms, dating clubs, singles’ classes, divorcee classes, young married couples’ classes, old married couples’ classes, nursery schools, dramas, filed trips, and a lot of other unprofitable junk that the old saints never had or would ever touch with a ten foot poll and they accomplished a lot more for God without the above than we do with all the above!!!

Bottom line - I believe most of Christianity today is made up of unregenerate folks.  Because of the above we are living in the most carnal, weak, fleshly, worldly, unfruitful period of Christianity that there ever has been.  If you do not believe the above then one of two things is possible:
1. You are unregenerate.
2. You are regenerate but your standard of judgment is today’s “Christianity”.

Now, wasn’t that fun?

2 Tim 4:3  For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

2 Cor 13:5  Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

2 Pet 1:10  Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

May God bless!

I know that I am not as strong in faith as the saints of the past. But I do know this, I am forgiven because of Jesus Christ, dieing on the cross and rising again. :) I WILL live my life the best I can, the way my Lord and Savior wants it. I do stumble and am weak, but if I keep my eyes on God I can move forward.  And aren't these today so called "Christians" the very people that still need us to each out to them?  Certainly!

Although your judgement is harsh, I have to agree.

Many churches have become "fluffy" social clubs.  There are always a few in every church to be found who are Christians, firm in faith and rooted in the gospel.

But what can I do to get Christian churches back to the basics?    First, I will pray.   Second, I will encourage people at my church to study the Bible and pray.  

I think the mistake of many people who believe as you do is in leaving the churches there are in because they are not perfect.  There is only perfection in Christ.  Christ loves his Bride and will not leave her or abandon her.  

We can try to bloom where we are planted.  There is much that you could offer others.  You might have to ask the Lord for guidance and patience with dealing with immature Christians.  You sound like you have suffered much frustration and anger over this issue.  

 

Jesus said He was building His church... The church has grown over the last 2000+ years He does know what He is doing...

1. Thanks M for your response - I enjoyed your posts and your approach.  Though the judgment is harsh I feel deserved.  I am certainly not where I should be in my spiritual like also.  

2. Amen - there are still some around - but are falling by the way side.

3. Great battle plan - scriptural and I praise the Lord for you desire to do this.

4. All I can say is Amen and Amen - I see many folks who use the excuse that because the church is failing they stay out of church - this is disobedience and a cop out!!!  It is also the height of spiritual pride.

5. Again, Amen and Amen

6. By the grace of God I have been under the same faithful pastor in the same church for over 22 years (ever since I was saved).  Through his guidance we have had to shake off some of what I've mentioned.   I guess my frustration has come from seeking to deal with the "saints" outside the local church and from "knocking doors" have seem the lack of knowledge of the gospel.  Plus I look in the mirror at my own spiritual life and see I am sadly lacking in the spiritual life that the old saints used to have.

God bless

God Afternoon,
I agree with your post...
I have a question, about #4...is stepped on my toes for sure.

My husband and I left the church I was born in because we felt their "doctrine" was wrong...so should we have stayed and not let "spiritual pride" drive us out? I thought it was more of needing to find a church that we thought was sound. It broke my heart to leave, and I am still not over it almost 7 years later. I still wish I was there, but I know I can't change their minds about what they believe. They are my family mostly, so they know how I feel about their church. Should going back to that church be something we should consider because we left feeling we were in the right and they were wrong?
lisajames96

Thanks for your thoughts - allow me to clarify if I may.  I did not really mean one should not leave a local church if the church has gone off the deep end - some shoudl leave their churches based upon sound, scriptural reasons - but only "after a long train of abuses" - (see the USA's Declaration of Independence).  

What I was trying to say is that one should not stay out of church completely.  One can find a church somewhere that comes close to what they feel conscience would allow - we all know no local church is perfect - but I firmly believe God's method of ministering to believers is primarily through a local church.

What I was saying is we shouldn't let issues keep us out of a local church compeltely - especially if the issues are petty.

Of course the scriptures should be our authority on doctrinal matters.  Find one that is close - be patient - show forebearance and longsufferance and jump in and get to work!  ;D

I trust this has cleared up some of my ramblings!!!

May God bless  ;)

AV,
  I was really impressed with your op.  Not that I was cheering you on, mostly just agreeing because contending for the faith has become a wishy washy "unity at all costs" theology.  Oh sure, there are exceptions, but the general rule is love, unconditionally [this is NOT a Scriptural teaching at all].
  So, I was rather surprised when you backed down so quickly, not really understanding your current stand on the church today in light of your op.
   I was one of those people who went from church to church to church to church, seeking for one that "was close".  Then I realized, I was not looking for perfection, I was looking for leadership that was truly looking to run the race, casting aside hindrences.
    The problem with "church", is that the pastor carries the full weight of its theology or doctrines.  What he speaks is rarely challenged or questioned.  If some brave soul dares approach him/her, their observations are soon put to rest by condensation and the "dare not touch the anointed" looks and inuendo concerning your intelligence.  Been there, done that so many times, I have many scars from the door hitting me on the backside on my way out  :-X
     What I have observed in my travels throughout churchdom [53 years worth - I retired from church 3 years ago  8)] is that the pastor went to theological school.  He paid to get his education in the Bible.  Those of us who did not go to seminary are the "laymen".  Therefore; how dare we expect to know more than or are able to discuss any Biblical matter with any intellengce or authority with "the Pasor".  Pastors are untouchable.    One church I went to, the Sr Pastor had body guards so people wouldn't "bother" him.
   
All of that puts me, in my humble opinion, at odds with Scripture.

Not just the actions or presumed authority, but what comes out of the man's mouth.  If a man preaches against what is in God's Word or adds to it, my responsibility is to withdraw.  It is not up to me to "correct" him.  The Matt 18 scenario does not fit here, imho.  There is no way on God's green earth I would EVER approach a pastor alone.  Talk about setting yourself up.  I have also found that God does not ask us or instruct us to stick around cause no one is perfect in their theology.  If a pastor is not open to correction from a lay person, it is time to leave.
    This is one of the reasons the church is in lethargy.  Iron sharpens iron is like plastic picnic ware in the pew today.  The choice of modern translations quoted from the pulpit is enough to turn my stomach.  So, my position is to study on my own, and to let God put people in my life who are serious about His Word.
    I am not saying I am some spiritual giant that cannot learn.  I am simply saying, I am tired of discussions with those who are close minded, and use unauthoritive scriptures for their source and then wonder why their theology is skewed.
    So much for my soapbox  . . .  ::)

shalom, nana  8)

     
     
     

sorry, double post  ::)

That is true brother. I also believe that the Church has been in bad times. Unregenerate is what it is. Many Christians today are dead in their walk with Christ. Churches have lost their focuses on Christ and have put them elsewhere. Money, socializing, exterior activities but the most destructive of all is doctrine and unsound authority. The Church is the Body of Christ, and this is all it's members (all christians). What can be done?

They only way is to pray. Pray that we can worship God in spirit and in truth. Pray that we can all have the same desire of God. Pray that we can look only on God and nothing else of this world.

The Church is God's precious treasure. Jesus's bridegroom. We must love the Church as Paul did and as Christ does. Brothers and Sisters, if you see a church that is falling you need to correct it no matter what persecution you will probably face.

Brothers and Sisters, if you are not in a local church or you cant find one, that is ok. But be eager to "pursue righteousness, faith, and love with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart". When "two or three are gathered in My Name, there I will be in their midst." This is all that is needed. But desire to have more.


In local churches it is necessary that there be a shepard (pastor). But is the pastor the only working member in the body of Christ, the Church??? NO!!! Everyone is a working member in the Church!!! Thus, the Pastor should not be the only one giving revelations, psalms, or prayers. Sadly, this is how it is. Many people just go to church, sing, listen to the sermon, and leave. Maybe there are some in choir. Maybe there are people who hand out tracts to visitors. And many others who do choirs to keep the technicalities of the church running. But what do we have to strengthen each other in Christ?

1 cor 14:26
When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church.

All of these are not just on the pastor.


Brothers and Sisters, I urge everyone to take a look at the Recovery Bible. This will help the Church out of it's decadance.

Thanks MalkyEL for your response and kind words - you mentioneed that I backed down later on - Im open to chat here - would you be so kind as to explain so I might get a chance to clarify.  I do agree with your post and we may be saying the same thing.

Please expound more on my "backing down" - not upset or offended in any way - just would like some feed back so we cn chat some more on this important subject.

Again thanks fo r your feedback and May God bless!!

I would agree that there are many pew sitters with no knowledge of Jesus in their lives, unregenerate, lost and dying sinners.  However, the majority?  I think the question isn't necessarily how little they don't understand, but how much the do understand.  What do I mean?  I mean that the gospel message is simple, and it is on those terms that we all come to Christ.  Simply.  It's not until we've come to know Him that the depth of the words you've given come to light.  

I'm not one to argue that we should remain ignorant.  I believe that each believer should come to an understanding of the depth of the plan of salvation God enacted from the foundations of the world.  But I also think that judging the relationship most believers have with Jesus based upon their knowledge of these words may be faulty as well.

Where do I stand on my understanding of what you've posted?  Hmmmm...


Amen!  Yet I've seen many willing to separate when Paul admonishes:



Quite possible.  But do we refuse to teach them now for what they didn't have taught to them then?  Doubtful that you feel that way, and I'm not accusing you of such.  Just trying to point out that we're all taught by the same Spirit through God's means of the local assembly and our obedience to His word.  We learn when we come and obey.  So...what do these words mean?

JUSTIFICATION[/u]  I've heard it expressed many times as "just as if I'd never sinned."  That's good, but lacking.  Our justification is based upon the shed blood of Jesus on the cross.  Our blood is unrighteous and worthless in offering.  The blood of goats and lambs, while acceptable in that time, never removed sin.  It only covered sin.  Jesus perfect blood removes sin.  Being justified by the blood of Jesus Christ is having the penalty for our sin removed.  Jesus, on the cross, took the wrath of God and the penalty for our sin - death, separation from God - upon Himself.  When a person believes and accepts Christ, that blood is applied to his account, and the penalty for that sin is erased.  That person now may know God, may be with God as opposed to being separated from Him by sin.  When God looks at their life, He sees His Son's righteous blood and the price has been paid in His eyes.

REDEMPTION[/u]  This is having the penalty/price for our sins paid.  We were once indebted to God because of our sin.  Now, the price, our lives have been redeemed.  I see this as tying very closely to justification, but better understood in the OT sacrifices.  Justification is positional.  Redemption is transactional.  

PROPITIATION[/u]  The word means an appeasement.  Now.  What's that mean?  It helps to understand the way in which it was used.  It reflects the Day of Atonement sacrifice under the OT Law.  On that day, the high priest would take two goats, cast lots, kill one, and symbolically lay the sins of the people on the other.  The living one was taken far from the camp and left.  The blood of the sacrificial one was taken by the high priest into the Holy of Holies and cast upon the Mercy Seat, which sat on the Ark of the Covenant.  Above the Ark, the Shekinah glory, or the manifestation of the presence of God resided.  In the Ark were a few things, but formost was the tablets upon which God wrote His Law.  The blood was sprinkled between the Glory of God and the Law of God.  The blood was sprinkled to appease God.  This had to be done yearly, as that blood only covered sin.  Jesus, as High Priest, gave His blood (sacrificial goat), took our sins on Himself(symbolic goat) and removed them, and offered His blood as an appeasement, the propitiation for our sins.  Long, but true nonetheless...

To Be Continued....

....henceforth and towith continued... ;D

ADOPTION[/u]  This is one I like, but for the sake of not confusing toooooo much, I'll be brief.  Er.  Ok.  I'll just teach.   ;D  Anywho...during the time that God used His people, the Children of Isreal, any who came to Him, came through them.  They became a prostelyte.  They took the sign of the covenant and became Jews.  These, where God's children.  His people.  So.  What of the Gentiles?  We know that the gospel message was first to the Jew, but also to the Gentile, so how do non-Jews become children of God?  He adopts them!  There are cultural aspects to consider in this as well in that the adopted child was given full sonship as it were, but the thought of being God's child and His provision for ensuring that are the point.  Now, there are "neither Jew nor Gentile."  We are His.   :)

SANCTIFICATION[/u]  While we are justified by the blood of Christ, and counted righteous as a result in God's eyes, He doesn't want to leave it at that.  Rather, He conforms us to the image of His Son, Jesus, that we can be bearers of that glory, and draw others to Himself.  We are made like Christ, to live righteous lives indicative of the state of righteousness God has placed us in.  Whereas justification removes us from sin's penalty, sanctification removes us from sin's power.

GLORIFICATION[/u]  I love this one most!  Whatever you're take on the passage, that's fine, but consider this.  God predestined us to be conformed to the image of His Son.  He justified us to make that possible.  He sanctifies us to bring us further along, and to bring others to Himself.  He glorifies us when He finally makes us like Christ in Heaven one day.  Whereas sanctification removes us from sin's power, glorification removes us from sin's presence.  The end goal of being made like Christ is completed.  We become image bearers that reflect the glory of God as Christ did on earth.


I've heard many believers try.  I've read many who have the understanding, but have not the ability to communicate it.  They're growing.  They later learn how to communicate the great work God did in their lives.  My first testimony was got profound.  "I got saved."   :)  My testimony now, is far deeper.


Sad, but true.  I find that the confusion, again, comes from a growing believer who encounters the book of Revelations for the first time.  They must be shown.  I've seen postings here where people have gotten it confused!  But I know that they know in the end, they're with Jesus.   :)  Do I know where I'll be?  Yup!  Unless I've got some Jewish blood in me and that factors in somehow... ;D


I believe the average saint today does not verbally give any plan, biblical or otherwise of salvation.  But this I do know.  If God's working, it works.  He'll take a newborn believer, take the simple message of what He did for them, and enlighten an unbeliever.  I've seen it happen.  It just takes a heart willing to share the love of Jesus with another.


And what is your absolute authority?  The KJV?  I say, GREAT!!!  Mine is the word of God as well.  I'll not argue the versions here, as that should not be the argument.  We agree that the final word is God's word.  We just don't agree on which translation of that word is absolute.  Personally, if my pastor, assembly, books I've bought or anything else agrees with God's word, then I'm fine.  If not, then I'm not in agreement with it or them.  :)


AAAAAAAAMMMMEEEEEEENNNNN!!!!![/b][/u]  Fortunately, I don't worry about such things.   ;D  It would do us all alot of good if we all practiced being doers of the word and not hearers only.


I believe that the hymns of the past dealt more with teaching and admonishing than they did with worship.  I love some of the old hymns.  Be Thou My Vision, The Old Rugged Cross, Victory In Jesus, Amazing Grace, It Is Well With My Soul to name a few.  Many can be worshipful as well.  But I'll take worshipping God for Who He is and what He has done in song, and listening to a Godly Pastor exposite the Word anytime.   :)


AMEN!!!!


AMEN!!!!


I believe that adherence to one over the other is a problem.  However, I do know that many of the newer authors deal with modern psychology more than ancient theology.  I've always said that the Bible doesn't make you feel good without first making you feel truth.   :)


I've seen all of the above.  But I've also seen it through different eyes.  Mine are far less judgmental.  (You already said you were judging so I didn't mean that as an accusational insult Brother).  But, with all that said, I still have issues with entertaining believers in the pews.  I'll leave it at that.

...to be continued yet again...

...continued...

I felt I should post, as I have been becoming more aware of those reading who may not understand what's being said.  They may have recently been saved, and don't know what these things mean.  I posted to share this with them.  Posting your feelings is great.  We all do that.  But posting the understanding behind the feeling is far more edifying.

I didn't post references (though I referred to much) for my understandings of those words, so if anyone wants them, feel free to ask.  I'll gladly supply!

I also felt I should post, as I see a danger in this thinking.  Not that the thinking is bad by any means, but that in so thinking, we become pharsaiacal.  The view I've seen from this initial post (and I could be wrong), wasn't for those who don't understand, but about those who do.  Had it been the former, the understanding would have been included.  That's the danger.  We see ourselves in a better light than others, to the exclusion of others.  We must build one another up.  This post was a great heads up AV!  Just be careful you don't step on any faces in the process.   :)

God bless.

His,

Kevin

I often see people saying that they are feed up with the churches in their area and decide to "home church".  That is just stay at home and hold their own "worship services" with just their own family and maybe one or two other like-minded families.  

I could see this being a good thing if they are very isolated by distance from most churches and the only local church was some cult.  I can see some definite pitfalls with people "home churching".  Maybe this a topic for debate.

I can't find the scripture but there is one that urges the believers to not forsaken coming together for worship and breaking bread.  Sorry I can't find the scripture.  Maybe someone else can.

Some folks who cant ever find a home church couldn't get along in any group of people.


Jesus Christ  said He would build His church is His act of building failing? NOPE  He does not fail..  We people have a hard time seeing the whole picture.

Some folks want thte pastor to do EVERYTHING some folks want to be the pastor doing everything... The most vocal lady in one of Dads chruches always had ideas and ways of  DOING but never showed up for the  'work' part. Churches are made up of US   you and me  lots of yous and mes and guess what we are all goofy in one way or another.  

The local church has a bibical background the gethering together was importiant to God. Check the OT and see how many times He gathtered them together.

There art some folks out there that are working to distroy the local churches Hearld Camping and his buddies are the first that come to mind.  The tithe that they can rake....

We are just goofy people  We must rely on Christ  trust Him to His Word and trust He is building His church  just as HE said He would.


1 Peter 2:5-6
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
KJV

Eph 2:19-22

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
KJV

Wide is the path that leadeth to destruction...narrow is the way that leadeth to eternal life.

Many shall enter in (the building), but few will find the door (to life).

Sad to say that, based on a lotta years of going to various churches throughout the country, that I have to agree with AV and Billy Graham both.

Billy once said that he is of the opinion that only about 10% of the visible church members are actually born again.

Why? For all the reasons denominated above, but mostly because the Word of God is no longer considered HIS Word...instead it has become a collection of folk tales written by a group of men involved in a giant conspiracy, and so it is subject to individual interpretation and application. Use it if you like it, ignore it if you don't, or better yet....change it to mean what you want it to mean.

Interesting survey conducted in '02 of the church world in England.
Only 65% believe that Jesus died for our sins.
Only 53% believe that Jesus was God.
Only 38% believe that Jesus is the ONLY way to heaven.
Only 26% believe that the Bible is God's Word.

And that's among the pastors.

 :'(

So is the question "What should we do if our church is becoming too fluffy?"

If a church has tonnes of programs and groups but no prayer meetings and no Bible studies, then it is fluffy.  

When someone wants to start a Bible study there never seems to be a qualified teacher.  The pastors are too busy.  No one else wants to give up any of their budget.  So nothing gets started.  

So this is what I did.  I complained that my church had no Bible study and no prayer meeting.  No one wanted to lead it.  I told the church I would do it.  So I got permission to lead a Bible study for 4 weeks.  I was given no budget at all.  It was so terrible and people complained so much.  People wanted it so they set up another Bible study.  This time with a "qualified teacher" (someone who went to Bible college).  It was terrible and people complained because they had to pay for the books the teacher choose  (which were fluffy).  Different approaches were tried and some success followed.  Several years later we now have two Bible study groups and an evening prayer meeting.  Attendance isn't huge but steady.  

Churches need to make sure that some budget is allotted to Bible study and prayer meeting.  By budget I mean: money, church facilities, time and pastor time.  Even if volunteers run the Bible study and prayer meeting, they will need training and support (all out of the budgets).  If the church people think that Bible study and prayer was important, it would be reflected in their annual budget report.  

AV - from your op:
Bottom line - I believe most of Christianity today is made up of unregenerate folks.  Because of the above we are living in the most carnal, weak, fleshly, worldly, unfruitful period of Christianity that there ever has been.  If you do not believe the above then one of two things is possible:
1. You are unregenerate.
2. You are regenerate but your standard of judgment is today’s “Christianity”.

AV [FEb 14]
What I was trying to say is that one should not stay out of church completely.  One can find a church somewhere that comes close to what they feel conscience would allow - we all know no local church is perfect - but I firmly believe God's method of ministering to believers is primarily through a local church.

What I was saying is we shouldn't let issues keep us out of a local church compeltely - especially if the issues are petty.

Of course the scriptures should be our authority on doctrinal matters.  Find one that is close - be patient - show forebearance and longsufferance and jump in and get to work!  


AV response to my post:
Thanks MalkyEL for your response and kind words - you mentioneed that I backed down later on - Im open to chat here - would you be so kind as to explain so I might get a chance to clarify.  I do agree with your post and we may be saying the same thing.

Nana:
I was referring to the other post in which you made the comment about finding one that's close.

Perhaps I am too much of a purist.  I spent too much time in the middle of politics and social activity and programs to edify the church goer, instead of reaching out.

My view of the body of Messiah is not the standard position of attending the brick building to either edify one-self or to be taught.  I do not believe the church today teaches.  It does not equip.  I am not amused sitting in the pew hearing teaching that does not equip me to stand.  Or being entertained.  Or by coersion to tithe.  Or by being judged because I am divorced.  Or by exclusion because I do not participate in church activities.

These things are not contending for the faith.   It is milk designed to keep the church attenders captive to a system that does not resemble the early church at all.

Sorry to sound negative.  I hear what you all are saying.  Being wounded by the establishment does not bear any weight on my perception of the church.  I simply shrugged it off and walked away.  No one is really interested in change.  This is why I liked your op. That is the bottom line - not sticking around picking through garbage to find the Truth - or something "close".

What God has called us to do is not waste time hanging around church.  The point of the "assembly" was to equip workers to go out and reach the lost, needy and hurting.  Breaking bread together was a simple meal where people shared their needs, that were taken care of immediately, equipping was done by intense study and prayer, and then all went to the Temple to witness and testify to the Good News of Jesus Christ.

There was no paid pastor, no choir, no sunday school, no pews, no tithing, no church meetings and budgets.

Of course I have shot myself in the foot with my hard stand.  I am in a ministry of one with zero support.  So my time is spent serving as God has called me.  Without the church, who really doesn't give a rip about me or what I do.  Does that sound like sour grapes?  Perhaps to you - for me it is simply the truth, the cold hard facts of life.  Jesus said it would not be easy.  We are not on a gravy train.  If we are His, we will suffer for what we do.  What I did not understand, is that we would suffer the most from the church itself.

shalom, nana

Reba wrote:
We are just goofy people  We must rely on Christ  trust Him to His Word and trust He is building His church  just as HE said He would.


1 Peter 2:5-6
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
KJV

Eph 2:19-22

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
KJV

nana:
Thanx, Reba, for posting some wonderful scripts.  

If I may opinionated here - I believe those marvelous words of Paul were meant as a spiritual application. They do not refer to a literal building.  

The true body of Messiah crosses all denominational borders.  It has nothing to do with who goes to church on Sunday, but that group of world wide believers who are serving, loving, and communicating with God in a relationship that cannot be defined by a building or a literal group of people.

Since I have left the established church, I have found the most incredible believers online.  Many do not attend church either, but study and worship online and equip, support, and counsel each other in their area of serving in which God has called them to.

The beauty is the unity of Spirit - that building of the temple of God - a spiritual reality - are we not all the temple of the Holy Spirit?  There are no social events to get in the way.  No preacher to pay, no building fund, no programs, no "collections" just intense study of God's Word to keep that strong foundation and to be armed with God's armor.

The world is a mess.  They don't need church.  They need Jesus.  They need you and me one-on-one to be His hands and feet.

shalom, nana

MalkyEL,

Just finished reading your last two posts here, and I have to say there's much wisdom in what you said.

I can relate very much to your experiences with the church building and people.  I was beginning to feel I was the only one who felt this way, until I read your posts.

You're correct-------the world is a mess; they don't need church (at least, not the ones you and I have experienced); they need Jesus.  Yes, we are His hands and feet.  Wow, what a job we have.  I started a new thread, barrel of apples in the you name it section.  Read it, if you want. This situation should never have been allowed to go on for so many years.  It's the result of no one caring enough to do anything except offer some suggestions.  It's as bad as seeing one laying half dead in the street, and telling them you'll be praying for them, and then walk away.  There are lots of hardened hearts in some of the churches.  It's very sad.

Thanks for those posts.

Grace and peace,
cris

     
   

Thanx, Cris, for the words of affirmation.  I just got this in my mail box - it made me smile cause it was so timely.  God does provide in the most unusual ways at times  ;D

Good For Us
by Chip Brogden

http://www.watchman.net/articles/good.html

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

"I will build My Church" (Matthew 16:18ff).

 We cannot build the Church, for Jesus is building it. Similarly, we cannot assemble ourselves together; the Lord has to do that as well. I am not saying we cannot have a meeting, but I am saying that a meeting is not what makes us the Church. There are many such meetings we can host or attend, but that does not make us the Church. People frequently ask me if I know where they can go to find fellowship. After examining them at length I determine that what they are really looking for is a meeting. Well, meetings are everywhere. You do not need me for that. I am afraid that I cannot recommend "meetings", I can only recommend brothers and sisters who love the Lord.

Now the Lord wants to assemble us together into a spiritual Temple, but if we look around it is clear that we are divided over several issues. We could go down the list and name them all. We could take time to talk about denominations, organizations, doctrines, beliefs, customs, and the like. We could draw up a list of one hundred or one thousand divisions, but the heart of the matter is this: have we seen the Lord? If we have seen the Lord then we do not need to see anything else: this revelation of Him is sufficient. And, if we have not seen the Lord, it is a waste of time to try and discuss anything else along the lines of doctrine or teaching.

MalkyEL,

Thanks--------Chip spoke the truth.  Wonder how many grasp what he's really saying?  I hope I do!  I believe he's talking about a personal relationship with Jesus, first and foremost, but then, he's saying if we don't see Jesus in our siblings, then we haven't seen Him at all.

Grace and peace,
cris

 

Hear what I have to say and it's short.
I would not use the word lost about our brothers and sisters because if they have the TRUE JESUS they have been found.
Now if they are professing Jesus but He is not the True Living GOD then it's not Christianity. So therefore they are not lost Christians they are just lost.
Now there are alot of Christians they are ignorant to alot of teachings but the are not lost. They are just ignorant. GOD wants us to learn about Him yes but if we just believe in Him then we are not lost.
i believe there were slaves that could not read (Because the were killed or beaten if they tried to) that believed in Him and were saved yet knowledge they did not have.
Now I'm not one of these that have not moved futher to grow in wisdom. I have taken Bibical classes and am presently in school. But I just think we should know lost means lost.
I agree that we as Christians should never stop trying to learn more and more about GOD. Makes this life better to go through. But some of these people that you claim to be lost Christians are more than likely not Christians at all.

Futhermore,
The Bible people were like us today.
There were so many that was with GOD yet did things that were unthinkable.
Think of David a man after GOD's own heart.

Think of Peter, denying Christ when he was rolling with HIM day in and day out!

They were still of good character and GOD still blessed.
So just because we see alot of not so die hard Christians don't mean the #'s are not big. We would have to travel forever. And besides only GOD sees hearts. Knowlege is not as important than a heart to GOD.
But I love to learn!!!

Jud 1:3
Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort [you] that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.(4) For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Crept in to where?

The church.

Jude:1:3 (partial)

"who were of old ordained to this condemnation"



 What does this mean?


Grace and peace,
cris

 

cris wrote:

Jude:1:3 (partial)

"who were of old ordained to this condemnation"

What does this mean?

nana:
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much long-suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction;

Matt 7:15 ¶ Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

1 Timothy 4
1 ¶ But the Spirit expressly says that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and teachings of demons,
2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, being seared in their own conscience,

2Thess 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already working, only he is now holding back until it comes out of the midst.
8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the breath of His mouth and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming,
9 whose coming is according to the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 and with all deceit of unrighteousness in those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, so that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie,
12 so that all those who do not believe the truth, but delight in unrighteousness, might be condemned.

Jude:1:3------I just partially quoted Evangelist's version and impulsively asked what it meant.

Here's the NAS version:

Jude:1:3 ( mine says Jude 4)
For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus.

Now if someone could put it in their words what "those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation" means.

To me, it's sounds as if it's a part of the predestination theology, some were born to die and go to hell, and some were born chosen to go to heaven.  I really hope I'm wrong.  

Grace and peace,
cris

There is a universal Church which consists of all believers in Christ and a local church.

The universal Church is the body of Christ and that which is being built up. This is the bride of Christ.


Gen 2:21-22
"And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;

And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, He built up a woman, and brought her unto the man."


As Christ's side was pierced of where water and blood flowed (signifying life and redemption); there came His bride made of an unbreakable rib. And it is now being built up until the bride and bridegroom become one.

Almost, but not quite. These people were written about in the older times, they were known of by the prophets, and certainly were known of by God from the beginning....it's more foreknowledge than fore-ordination, or caused.

The greek for "before of old ordained" is
prographo palai prographo. Prographo is shown below:
1) to write before (of time)
a) of old set forth or designated before hand (in the scriptures of the OT)

2) to depict or portray openly
a) to write before the eyes of all who can read
b) to depict, portray, paint, before the eyes

So you can see it's not what you hoped it wasn't.  ;D

Very well said felix102...you are correct in that there is the whole Body of Christ and the local church. i just got finished listening to a sermon by Adrian Rogers on Mature Christians...he said "There is a difference between growing old and growing mature...Some christians stay in the Immaturity phase WAY too long" How true is that...lol.

Joshua

I'm gonna post something D.L. Moody said about today's Churches and entertainment...just figured i'd post it here

D.L. Moody:
Then, another thing, I think, that grieves the Spirit, is the miserable policy of introducing questionable entertainments. There are lotteries, for instance, that we have in many churches. If a man wants to gamble, he doesn't have to go to some gambling den; he can stay in the church. And there are fairs - bazaars, as they call them - where they have rafflings and grab-bags. And if he wants to see a drama, he don't need to go to the theater, for many of our churches are turned into theaters; he may stay right in the church and witness the acting. I believe all these things grieve the Spirit of God. I believe when we bring the Church down to the level of the world to reach the world, we are losing all the while and grieving the Spirit of God.

      But some say, if we take that standard and lift it up high, it will drive away a great many members from our churches. I believe it, and I think the quicker they are gone the better. The world has come into the Church like a flood, and how often you find an ungodly choir employed to do the singing for the whole congregation; the idea that we need an ungodly man to sing praises to God! It was not long ago I heard of a church where they had an unconverted choir, and the minister saw something about the choir that he didn't like, and he spoke to the chorister, but the chorister replied: "You attend to your end of the church, and I will attend to mine." You can not expect the Spirit of God to work in a church in such a state as that.

 ;D

ATA, Joshua.

We need to remember (and some need to learn) about how Peter preached on the day of Pentecost, and it's result.

"......it pricked them in their hearts..."

When we speak the truth (the Word), the Holy Spirit does the pricking, and it's only when HE does it that the result is genuine...one way or the other.

What is ATA? I enjoy looking at Peter's first sermon. He allowed the Holy Spirit to work through him. Him, a fisherman, a meager Jew...led 3000 people to Christ!! Peter gave the example of one who humbled himself before the Cross of Christ and diminshed himself so that Christ would be seen through his words. I think every Pastor needs to do this...if they don't then there is no substance behind their words. I'm glad you pointed the "it pricked them in their hearts" I just posted that earlier this very day...lol. Check out my reply in the other thread:

http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?board=22;action=display;threadid=6765

you'll see the verses from Pentacost came to mind...lol. I'm very aware of what yyou're talking about! :) One body, one mind, one Spirit. ;D God Bless

Joshua

A Triple Amen

Reading through here made me remember an editorial I wrote several years ago....thought it might be a *little* appropriate to the thread.

Has Your Chewing Gum Lost Its Flavor?

As I was reading the article in this issue from George Barna, there were several things that he said that rang an immediate bell of agreement with me. While they are hard to be said, they are things that MUST be said...for if they are not, then I fear that the Body of Christ, HIS Church, in this country is in imminent danger of being treated like He warned the Laodiceans that He would do.

First, Barna said "Christianity is not having anywhere near the impact in our society that it could if those who are its adherents were to practice the fundamental principles of the faith on a 24-7 basis."

We certainly don't need to look far, or even deeply, to see the absolute truth of those words. On even the most basic levels of our society, we can see the degradation and elimination of essential aspects of our humanity. No one's word means anything anymore. Where once upon a time, contracts and deals were made with a shake of the hand, and the honor of the individuals making the deals was paramount, it is no longer unusual to see people saying anything to anyone for no purpose other than to make a buck, or gain an advantage. And the words are said with no intention of holding up their end of the bargain. Our society has essentially become a society of liars.

In business, it has become "de rigeur" to see how well the books can be cooked, or how much wool can be pulled over the investors/stockholders eyes, and "warranties" or guarantees have become useless pieces of paper with no value. It does no good whatsoever to say to yourself, "well, that's the other guy...they can't be Christian". Look again...the people who are doing this are not just the CEO's of Enron, they are the owners of your corner businesses, your neighbors, your fellow pew sitters. You know them. And, truth be said, if you look carefully in the mirror... The Barna research continues with "Specifically, Barna indicated that both churches and the Christian faith are perceived to have little influence in America because there is limited evidence that people's lives are any different as a result of their faith."

Read that again. "...there is LIMITED EVIDENCE that people's lives are any different as a result of their faith." Didn't the Apostle Paul write about Christians being "new", that "the old has passed away"? What does that say about the Church? It says that those who CLAIM to belong to Christ DO NOT live the life that He has told us to live. Jesus said "let your yea be yea, and your nay be nay", or put another way....tell the truth, and honor what you say you will do.

Christians are supposed to be people of faith. Didn¹t God say "without faith, it is impossible to please Him?" Didn't He also say that we "live by faith, and not by sight?" Then where is that expression of faith? Faith is not something that is just spoken, or said, and then forgotten. It is something that is lived, it is something that is done...it is LIFE itself! In Hebrews 11 we read the words "Now, faith is the SUBSTANCE of things hoped for, the EVIDENCE of things unseen". The Christian has faith that they are saved, and hope they will go to heaven. But do we give that faith, that hope, SUBSTANCE in our daily lives? Do we live as if we really did hope? And do we stand ready to "give account of the hope that lies within us?" Christians have a mental image of heaven, even though we can¹t see it. Do we present EVIDENCE in the way we live that we truly are not citizens of this earth, but of a HEAVENLY REALM? Is the evidence of our daily lives what it is supposed to be to make that evidence real and tangible in the life of someone else who has no hope?

Indeed, the Church in America today is exactly like the Church of Laodicea....fat, self-satisfied, replete and glutted with self-serving interests, unthankful to the Lord God who has provided them with so much, unthankful to each other, and interested in nothing more than having a good social, an outstanding meal, and a tear-jerking, knee-slapping singing. Oh...and don't forget the value of the buildings and grounds, the number of "ministries" that we offer, and the "solidity" of our bank accounts. We must be good stewards!

Barna says the path back to righteousness is not easy - "it takes a serious commitment of time and mental energy".

Well....duh! Being a Christian DOES take a serious commitment....one in the heart, one of truth, one of love and gratitude, and a DETERMINATION to be what Jesus commanded us to be...the salt and light of the earth.

It's time to wake up, Church. Before it's too late.

"If the salt has lost it's savor, what is it good for?"

 Here's an interesting perspective related question.

 Should pastors only preach to the saved?

 I think that comment by Moody is akin to the pharisees chastizing Jesus for being in the presence of sinners.

Once again Jesus went out beside the lake. A large crowd came to him, and he began to teach them.  As he walked along, he saw Levi son of Alphaeus sitting at the tax collector’s booth. "Follow me,"Jesus told him, and Levi got up and followed him.
While Jesus was having dinner at Levi’s house, many tax collectors and "sinners" were eating with him and his disciples, for there were many who followed him. When the teachers of the law who were Pharisees saw him eating with the "sinners" and tax collectors, they asked his disciples: "Why does he eat with tax collectors and ‘sinners’?"

On hearing this, Jesus said to them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

Bronzesnake

Hehe...opens up a whole 'nother can of worms, Bronze.

Ephesians 4...."and He gave some Apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers........until we ALL come into.......stature of the FULLNESS of Christ"

Apostles: those who are grounded solidly enough in God's doctrine as to be able to perceive, point out, and correct those who deviate from sound doctrine.

Prophets: those who are specifically called to examine the ills of society and the church in light of Gods Word and to call loudly and pointedly for examination, repentence, and return to sound doctrine and way of life.

Evangelists: those who are tasked with and gifted to clearly announce the Gospel to those who are NOT saved.

Pastors/Teachers (the "and" lumps them together): those who are called and gifted to shepherd a group of Christians meeting together for the purpose of learning and growing, and to teach sound doctrine to the learners, to exhort them to growth and purpose; who have a special care and love for the "family", and who protects and cares...just as a mother hen gathers her young under her wings when danger lurks.

All of them have a calling to preach to the unsaved....but each has a special area of primary responsibility....and the gifting to accomplish that task.  Evangelists who try to pastor usually do a bad job, and vice-versa. Teachers who try to evangelize are usually a flop. and so on........

Jesus, now....He was(is) special. He could do them all.  ;D

Pastors preach to the unsaved, and teach the saved...does that answer your question.

Don't get that confused with Preachers...who preach to the unsaved. ;)

God Bless

Joshua

A couple of questions  8)

Is the church supposed to preach to the unsaved at[sunday/saturday] gatherings?

What is the function of the church - to equip the saints or to keep them separated from the world?

shalom, nana

The post continued...

We are the Church. And we are being built up. What are we being built up into?

Gen 2:23-24
"The man said, 'This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called woman, for she was taken out of man."

For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become ONE flesh."

We are being built up into Christ! Our destiny is to become like Christ. Jesus, the God-man possessing both humanity and divinity, came down for us so that we may possess divinity in our humanity.

gen 2:20
And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found a help meet for him.

There was not found a help meet for him... Who was this help meet? And who did it have to be? A woman. A woman who was made from a man. Out of all the species and their kind there was none suitable to be a counterpart for Adam. Only one the same as man was suitable. We do not see Humans marrying other species but Humans.

Likewise, Christ's bride will be just the same in nature and kind. Though we are have fallen short of the glory of God, we are constantly being transformed into Christ until one day we see Christ and become just as he is.

Brothers and Sisters, we belong to Lord Jesus; we are One with Him. We ARE the CHURCH. We are Christ's Body. We are Christ's bride.

Thanks brother. I just wanted to clarify the difference between  the Church, the Body of Christ (which is us), and the local church. That they are not the same things.


There definetely is a difference between growing old and maturing. lol. It does not matter how long you live BUT how long you live IN Christ. That is growing in Christ and maturing in Him. Simply focusing your entire being, heart, mind, and all your strength on Him and walking in Christ will make us grow. Our life is in Jesus. Keep walking with Jesus and keep eating Him. "To live is Christ!!"

Amen brother

1. Yes, I believe it is the duty of the bishop, pastor, minister, etc. to be sensitive and be prepared to get the gospel in for the following reasons:
a. He should be aware that even some the most faithful members may stlll be unregenerate.
b. There could be visitors
c. Even the truly saved need to hear again the good news for reflection and review

But...what has happened (especially in Baptist churches - I am a Baptist so I can pick on them here) is that their preaching services have centered on preaching only to the lost to the point where the saved get wore out and starved out by not hearing more of the resurrected Crhsit expounded.  Sad but true

2. EXCELLENT QUESTION AND I BELIEVE YOU SHOULD START A SEPARATE THREAD ON THIS QUESTION - my opinion.

God bless

I ran across this, and couldn't help but make a paraphrase in re today's church.

Parchments are dyed purple, gold is melted into lettering, manuscripts aire decked with jewels, while Christ lies at the door naked and dying. -- Jerome, Epistle xxii.32

Sunday programs are adorned with bright colors and pictures, faux gold ink is used on the tithe envelopes, hymnals are emblazoned with the name of the church and who gave it, while Christ stands and knock on the door to be allowed in...........and no one opens the door.

There are those who will open the door, but they're dwindling more and more...it's just another sign of the times. I believe that we are living in the time of the Laodicians. When they are neighter hot nor cold, but lukewarm. I'm sure all of us have had lukewarm water. it's nasty and i can see why Christ would spew them out. I pray as much as I can that I am not that person. I honestly ask Christ to let me know what it is i'm doing wrong and what it is that I can do to further his kingdom and His will. I pray that this is all God's children's prayer. If it's not, I think we need to examin ourselves so that we may be presented Holy and Blameless in the sight of the Almighty through the Work and Word of the Lord Jesus Christ. God Bless

Joshua

original question:
1. Is the church supposed to preach to the unsaved at[sunday/saturday] gatherings?

AV wrote:
1. Yes, I believe it is the duty of the bishop, pastor, minister, etc. to be sensitive and be prepared to get the gospel in for the following reasons:
a. He should be aware that even some the most faithful members may stlll be unregenerate.
b. There could be visitors
c. Even the truly saved need to hear again the good news for reflection and review

nana:
perhaps I did not make my question clear.  Let me rephrase it.

Do you think the original intent of the church was to preach to the unsaved at a gathering of the assembly?

It is the Pastors responsibility to preach as the Lord leads them, too. Is it wrong to give a little milk with the meat or to give meat with the milk? A good Pastor, Preacher, etc., should go according to the needs of his congregation.


1Co 3:1  And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
1Co 3:2  I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
1Co 3:3  For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?




Heb 5:12  For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
Heb 5:13  For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
Heb 5:14  But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

nana:
I am not sure what this has to do with the question.

 Was the orginal intent of the church to preach to the unsaved when it was gathered together?

Thank you Evangelist--------Whew, I am so glad what I hoped it wasn't, isn't.  ;D

Grace and peace,
cris

MalkyEL,

IMO, the answer is no, because there probably were no unbelievers when they gathered. The Church is comprised of believers, not unbelievers. The purpose was to go out and preach the good news to unbelievers.  Once converted, they became members of the church. The church (called out ones), also known as the body of Christ, gathered to bring glory to Jesus Christ, edify fellow believers, care for one another, and equip to evangelize non-believers.

Now, the Church began at Pentecost.  It comprises all believers, from inception at Pentecost, until the end of time.
This is the "body of Christ" universal church.  Out of that universal church there were formed small groups (local churches).  IMO, these local churches should be streams of living water.  I think they started out this way, but something happened.  They don't resemble the early church, IMO.

Grace and peace,
cris

That is true brother. Something I didn't realize till now.

"The church (called out ones), also known as the body of Christ, gathered to bring glory to Jesus Christ, edify fellow believers, care for one another, and equip to evangelize non-believers."

This is exactly what the church is suppose to be like. For non-believers it was while each  brother was prophesying that lead them to be convicted by the HOly Spirit. "Surely God is among you."


the local church today is very different. There are three essential things to the gospel but the local church only focuses on one. Most churches today focus only on salvation (Jesus as the Lamb of God) and not growth and our building up (Jesus as the Bread of Life and Jesus who is building us up into a dwelling place for Him).

The original intent and purpose of the church was to preach the Gospel (milk) to any unsaved that may be in their midst and to preach directions (meat) to those that were already saved. There is nothing changed with this as this is still our objectives.

AMEN BROTHER!

Keeping these objectives in balance is a matter of prayer in every church building trying to do the work of the LORD. Reaching the lost will always be a highest priority, and building the saints simply provides more laborers in JESUS who are properly equipped and strong enough in JESUS to also reach the lost. Every pastor should pray about this at least daily that God will guide and direct the efforts in a balanced way. If a pastor wishes to do everything all alone, they shouldn't be a pastor.

Love In Christ,
Tom

I Corinthians 1:30  But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Brother Beps,


Amen to that. Any Pastor that tries to do it all alone is not a pastor to begin with and will not ever be one. It requires God working through him and those that God reaches through him.