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So the saying goes, "If you put a rotten apple in a barrel with good ones, they will ALL rot, eventually."  If they don't rot, (depends on length of time) their freshness is certainly impaired, and they won't be chosen for purchase by a consumer.  Keep this thought, because it can apply to a person.

They bible tells us to watch who we associate with, so I want to make a supposition.

Let's suppose two unsaved people marry.  Some years later one gets saved and the other claims they're saved.  The saved one knows the other really isn't saved because there hasn't been any change in that person.  They've remained just like they were previously. They continue to deceive and  lie about everything, probably pathologically.  This unsaved? person has no empathy, no shame, no guilt, no remorse nor does this person show any signs of applying the Word of God to their life.  Yet, they claim they're Christian.  Person slanders spouse and is very good at getting others to believe the lie. This person continues to make the same mistakes over and over and doesn't learn from the past. This person's life shows a path of destruction.  Person is self-employed but doesn't abide by self-employment rules, therefore business is in shambles.  Robs Peter to pay Paul and sometimes doesn't pay Paul at all.  When brought to their attention, they just wallow in self-pity and claim the world hasn't been nice to them.  Person takes no responsibility to looking at how they've directly contributed to the situation, so continues in the destructive path.  Actually this person seems to like depriving and making their family miserable.  Person seems to thrive on it, yet is in denial of it.  Person blames everyone but self.  Help is rejected because person says they really aren't being given help.  Nothing works for them.  Showing them love for years hasn't worked because they are apparently unable to accept it.  They return love shown them by hurting that person.  It is a definite pattern of behavior.  No amount of therapy or counseling has ever helped, Christian or non-Christian.  Person diagnosed untreatable.  Does not respond to any type therapy.  Meanwhile, the family is really suffering. The saved spouse doesn't have parents or siblings who could help.  The saved spouse's church is of no help.  Family is denied, in essence, life.  They exist hoping God will intervene and stop the madness.  This person kills, steals and destroys, yet claims they're Christian.  They don't physically kill or blatantly go out and rob banks or obviously destroy property but they kill, steal and destroy, albeit subtly. This person seems to be inhuman or maybe subhuman.  Very different from the vast majority as regards thinking processes.

This person is the rotten apple, so to speak, by making life unbearable for their family. This peron knows right from wrong, but chooses wrong. Person IS contaminating the family. The family doesn't have an alternative because they are totally dependent financially and there are some health problems.  The family is now isolated. They are in bondage to the one who was to protect them.  There's much more to this story but, for now, I'll end here.  Any comments?

cris




   

There is always a choice. It may not be an easy one but there is always a choice. Prayer and asking for God's guidance is the first step in this choice.

PR,

No, there isn't ALWAYS a choice.  Obviously, you would have to know more about the situation to understand.  If you think there are choices in this situation, what might some of them be besides prayer?    

Grace and peace,
cris

As you said, I don't know enough about the situation to be able to tell you what choices are available, but be assured there are choices. They might be very difficult choices, they might be wrong choices, but there are always choices.

Supposition?

PR,

You really don't have to respond to this if you aren't up to it or whatever.

Just based on the story, what would be some of the choices, difficult, wrong, or right, in your opinion.

Grace and peace,
cris

Supposition!  What?  You don't like stories, real life or fictional?  Some real life stories sound fictional, and some fictional ones sound real! ;) ;D

Sister Cris,

The person you are describing is probably either a psychopath or a sociopath, and this person is very dangerous.

Someone in the family might be the next victim, and everyone in the family that knows about this is subject to criminal prosecution as an accessory for every crime this person has committed. So, it is far beyond foolish for the family to keep quiet about this matter - it's a crime.

It would be much better to live on the street and eat at a soup kitchen than to live with and cover up for a psychopath or sociopath. ANYTHING would be better than being dependent on one of these folks. I can tell you for sure that the courts would not be impressed with the reasons why the family aided, abetted, and kept quiet while the number of victims were piling up. Much would depend on how long the family has been allowing a dangerous criminal to run loose and continue to commit felony crimes without aiding the police in putting this person where they belong - PRISON. If the family continues to neglect this legal responsibility, some of the family might be going to prison also. I might add - rightfully so.

My only suggestion would be for the family to gather all the information and evidence they can, go to the police, and assist in every way possible in the prosecution of this person. If not, many of them will get free food and lodging in prison and won't have to worry about who they are dependent on. The state will be happy to provide food and lodging for the entire family. Obviously, it would be much better for the whole truth to come from the family. At this point, everyone in the family that knows about this is completely responsible for every crime, both criminal and civil. However, the family could receive immunity, probation, or lesser consequences if they do what they are legally required to do anyway.

Right now, the family is:

Legally wrong and committing crimes by not reporting this;

Morally wrong and responsible for the growing list of victims.

In short, the family MUST do what is legally and morally right. If not, the consequences will grow by the day. I might also add that the very real danger for members of the family also becoming victims is probably growing by the day. The family should have helped law enforcement authorities put this person where they belong at the very start. DO IT NOW, AND DON'T WAIT ANOTHER DAY. If the family is afraid of injury or death if they do what's legally required of them, explain this in detail to the police. There are many excellent programs that will provide complete safety for the family while this person is being put away. You are right about the lack of many choices. There's really only one - DO YOUR LEGAL DUTY WITH THE POLICE, AND DO IT NOW!

I assume this story is real, and I gave you a real answer. There are many choices after this person is locked up, and they must be locked up. The choices the family is involved in now are all completely WRONG, ILLEGAL, AND IMMORAL.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Hebrews 4:16  Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

I believe that brother beps pretty well covered it.

The choice is:

Stay in a bad situation.

or

Get out of it.



Protect the children by getting them out of the situation.

or

Be responsible for what may happen to the children for keeping them in a bad situation.


Put up with this situation.

or

Do something about it.

BEP,

Thank you for your detailed response.  I need to clarify something though.  The person I spoke of did not break any of the laws of the land.  When I said kill, steal, and destroy, I was speaking of crimes of the heart which REALLY are every bit as heinous.  It's covert heinousness, (crimes of heart) as opposed to overt heinousness, (breaking law of land).   Person is subtle, manipulative and bullies in a passive-aggressive way. They're very careful not to let anyone see their true side.  Person is not a felon.  Obviously, the police would not be a part of the scenario, based on this clarification.  I've done some reading on these individuals, psychopath/sociopath, (I think you correctly described this person), but a very high percentage of them do not break the law.  They're your neighbor next door and aren't necessarily dangerous to you, at least not physically.  They might give you an underhanded compliment though and wound you emotionally. They're well hidden.  However, their family knows something is wrong.  People outside the family are unsuspecting, and wouldn't believe it, because person seems to be so "nice". The family can be put on the defensive, adding insult to injury, among other things, when they shouldn't be.  Granted, a large number of lawbreakers are diagnosed as psychopaths/sociopaths, (dangerous ones you spoke of), but not all are lawbreakers.  Most are going undected just because they don't break the law. They usually have very high IQ's.  In a way, the family is in a worse off condition because they can't call law enforcement. If you would, please re-read story with this new knowledge and re-comment.  

Please accept my apology for not being clear enough.

Grace and peace,
cris




           

Pastor Roger,

I think we all already know something should be done but the real question, based on the circumstances in the story is HOW to do it.  There is no outside intervention for such a situation when, #1, there's no money, and #2, family has been isolated------no family, no friends, and church is of no help.  It's unbelievable a church would turn their back on a situation like this, but they did.  Maybe the psycho had something to do with it, who knows?  Anyway, the question still remains on HOW to get unstuck.  Obviously, the family needs rescued or they will just die between that rock and hard place.  Who will rescue them?  Will they ever be?  

Grace and peace,
cris

Cris:

At the very least, the spouse (I assume the wife) and the children are being subjected to a great deal of mental abuse in this situation.  As such, there are *some* intervention agencies that can help.

The first decision that must be made by the spouse is "do I want to get out of this....no matter what".

Second, if the answer is yes, is to contact child welfare and also find some mission organizations that are geared specifically to women and children who MUST leave their home. Various names in various places, but one I'm familiar with is called Pheobe's House.  I'm sure that there are some that exist in just about every medium and large city.

Third, leave, and try to get life back on track with the help of these agencies.

But step one is the hardest.....and most critical.

They must rescue themselves. Yes there are others that are willing to give a helping hand such as Pheobe's House that Evangelist mentioned. In my area it is Salvation Army that runs such a house. These places will assist with temporary housing, job search and placement, etc.

It still all boils down to one thing. This person must decide to make the first step, to choose the right path for her and, most importantly, her children.

Yes it is sad that a church wiould close their eyes to such a situation. Has this individual gone to the church for help? If she hasn't then the church or anyone else cannot help until she asks for that help.

As Evangelist said the spouse must make that decision to get help.

To any of the responders but specifically in response to Evangelist.


Thanks for your responses and I'd appreciate some more of them.

What are some of the mission organizations you have in mind besides Phoebe House?  Suppose spouse wants to get out of situation and Phoebe House is not in person's area.  What is Phoebe House anyway?  Where would they even begin looking for these other mission organizations you speak of?  If you don't know, then how would the spouse know?  

For the moment, we must forget about child welfare.  I'll comment at a later time on why.

Let's suppose spouse has already contacted organizations (state) and they couldn't help for various reasons. They were under staffed, dwindling finances for the program, etc.  Suppose every avenue, so far, ended in a dead end.  This is being "stuck between a rock and hard place".  One phone call after the other.  With each phone call, another phone number was given for the spouse to call for help, until they were all exhausted.  Keep this in mind when you comment.

Now, let's suppose that spouse is a senior citizen and child/children are adult, but still dependent and from a previous marriage. Sheds a different light.  Some needy adults (dependent adult child/children) "fall through the cracks" (meaning they CAN'T get help).  This IS a fact.  They're not retarded but they aren't capable of caring for themselves, either.  They don't qualify for SSDI because they should be able to work, so says SSDI.  However, no one wants to hire them (these are the ones who fall through the cracks).  Now, back to the senior citizen spouse who wants to leave abusive situation.  This person has no skills and has never worked.  Obviously, this spouse can't ever count on finances from the other spouse, but can count on that spouse making life more miserable when spouse finds out about the plans to leave, more added stress. Very frightening.  Okay now, how would senior citizen spouse ever be able to support self and adult dependent child/children (even if they were able to get some skills training), considering their health isn't good, due to the unrelenting stress they've been under for so many years?  How would the quality of life be better for those leaving, considering these particular circumstances? They've essentially jumped out of the frying pan into another one, only different now. It's an exchange of one problem for another.  There has to be a viable option here.  Spouse must see a light at the end of the tunnel in order to leave.  Forget about any court orders because they are rarely enforced.  (I personally know this from experience).  Forget about departing spouse getting abusive spouse's SS because that spouse stopped paying into it a very long time ago.  Besides the stress this spouse is under currently, leaving the abusive situation will contribute to MORE stress, albeit different, considering the circumstances.  So, one might say, spouse must weigh whether it's better to remain than to depart.  Obviously, the spouse remained, even though spouse wanted to leave, because of all of the above, not necessarily because spouse wanted to stay (a rock and a hard place).  It's very complex and frustrating, to say the least.

People who have never been in a situation such as I described, find it unbelievable.  They begin to accuse spouse of not really wanting to leave because all of their suggestions weren't viable, legitimately, or maybe I should say realistically, for this specific case. These are not excuses! This is what I meant when I said this family gets insult added to injury.  No doubt, it is VERY frustrating for all.  So, Christian or not, most people give up even trying, be it the one who offers the suggestions, or the victim/victims.  They're back to where they started (the victim/victims).  The vicious circle syndrome.

IMO, the Church has completely blinded themselves to situations such as this. This IS a problem, but they're ignoring it/or excusing themselves.

I do realize people (most) have good intentions when trying to help another, however, it's easy to throw out some names, etc., only because they've just heard of certain places of help, without really knowing what they're talking about.  PLEASE, don't take what I'm saying out of context.  I'm not referring to anyone here.

In trying to help, I've made phone calls for a couple of different people (different situations) in the past. What I said above about being given one phone number after the other is true.  I've checked this out myself.  It's very discouraging.  I'm not talking about 3 or 4 phone numbers but into the 20's and more.

The Word of God says Satan comes to kill, steal and destroy.  One can kill without physically taking another's life.  One can steal without physically taking material things.  One can destroy by physically draining another.  We have a very real adversary we deal with, and that adversary doesn't want to be found out.  Sometimes he isn't, because people shrug their shoulders and ignore.  Everyday that enemy takes lives and walks the streets freely.  No one suspects.  The victims know though, and God knows.  That adversary will be incarcerated for eternity one of these days, but meantime, the victims pile up, as BEP would say.

Sorry this post was so long-------------!

Grace and peace,
cris

 

Cris:

Sounds like a real situation, here.

First, Phoebe's House is a name, used by many mission organizations around the country. Where I am, the particular organization is called Twin City Mission. Every medium to large city has one or more "street" missions that provide overnight shelter and meals, and most of them also administer longer terms places like Phoebe's House.  As Pastor Roger also said, the Salvation Army has many, many connections. At the very least, they will have names and numbers, and skilled counselors who can best point out a direction.

In Texas, the department of Human Services has Child Protective Services, and also has a division that specializes in elder abuse. While it is designed primarily to look into cases of abuse occurring in elder aid homes (retirement homes, etc.), they also look into cases involving spousal and childrens abuse of elderly parents and spouses.  They also have access to facilities to assist such victims.  There are also a number of state "schools" that take in children and adults who are considered incapable of taking care of themselves, especially when the parent(s) are also elderly and can't supply the needs and requirements.

Frankly, it's hard for me to comprehend a situation where an adult "child" who isn't mentally retarded is not capable of doing something....unless we're talking about some type of severe physical debility, such as advanced MS, ALS, gross deformity, etc.

Whatever the case, it appears that your senior subject needs the assistance of someone who is knowledgeable in the available resources of the area, so I would suggest beginning at a Salvation Army center.

Thank you.  I didn't say child was not capable of working.  I said no one wants to hire them.  These are the ones who fall through the cracks.

Also, situation would not be deemed elder abuse.  As I said, it's a very complex situation getting worse by the day.  Hope has dimmed considerably.

All of the organizations (state) have prerequsites (one must fall into one of them).  This family doesn't, hence, caught between a rock and hard place.

Let me briefly give you a bit more.  One of the children got saved when he was about 11 years old.  Even though he had learning problems, and was rejected by his peers because of an inability to socialize appropriately, he was on fire for the Lord.  Knowing he might be further ostracized, he still carried a bible to high school and preached the Word to whoever would listen.  At that time, bible toting didn't carry the penalty that it does now.  Fortunately, one of his teachers that knew him was saved, also.  The mother told me this teacher said this young man's heart was in the right place.  I'll never forget that.  Now, not having a father or step-father who encouraged this young man but rather degraded him whenever he could, what kind of attitude do you think this young man has now?  Not real nice.  He's a bit sour and who could blame him considering the abuse he's gone through.  It's really a travesty.  In the beginning of the story, called a barrel of apples with contamination, this is what I was referring to.  There's much more, as if what I 've already said wasn't enough.

The type abuse described here leaves no visible marks.  The abuser doesn't appear any different from anyone else, but he is.  Don't know if you followed the Scott Peterson murder trial, but it's an example of someone who isn't quite human.

Grace and peace,
cris

 

thanx, cris, for bringing this thread to my attention.  It has been very interesting to read and see how people are responding.

I was married to a man like that.  Not quite as intense, but a manipulator and extremely verbally abusive.  Everyone thought he was a spiritual giant.  He hides his evil side very well, except from me and his kids.

Thankfully he left me because he could not control me and had no effect on me - but that was due to the grace of God.  I told him I was crazy and did he want to live with a woman who everyone knew was a "religious fanatic" and a nutcase?  He agreed and filed for divorce  ;D

Thankfully our two daughters are married.  Unfortunately he is now using the same tactics against them.  I sit back and watch and listen and have seen them look at me in a new light with understanding.  So there is good in everything :)

My divorce cost me everything.  I lost every single friend I had.  I lost family members and even my own mother rejected me because it was "my fault".  She is also one of these psycho-pathic individuals who takes joy in controlling others and to the outside world - the church in particular - is a saint who's evil daughter refuses contact with her any more.

Back to the discussion.  

I totally understand everything in this scenario.  The point that cris is making is that the church has failed, abominably.  It takes the word of a smooth talker and manuipulator who knows how to play the part and talk the talk over the one who has been hurt and wounded.  Been there.  The church, not taking responsibility for the whole mess, is causing this family to turn to the world for help.

The world's system is only going to work in a very limited capacity.   It puts a way too small bandage on the cut which can never be healed.  

I don't have a solution other than trusting in God.  Only He can make a way when there seems to be no way.  We live in a cursed world that is overrun by evil and manipulation.  Only He can intercede. He will use the world to help, because the church has failed, but it is not His way at all.

shalom, nana

MaklyEL,

You seem to be stronger than the person I spoke of.  I'm not saying it's easier because one might be stronger.  Don't misunderstand, please.  She has no means of support for herself and adult child and is really scared.  She has no family and is a senior citizen now.  Mother and father are both deceased and never did approve of the marriage in the first place.  The mother didn't think he was good enough for her.  Well, mothers ARE intuitive, and I think her mother might have been on to something a long time ago.  It's water over the dam now.

Her husband will do everything in his power to destroy her.  She tried once to file for a separation and he made it so difficult she couldn't function.  She took him back.  It was either that, or she was ready for the grave.  This situation, and others like it are purely evil.  It's the enemy trying to destroy.  People tend to underestimate the power of the adversary.  God is the victor.  We know that, but the war claims many victims.  Enough said.  Thanks for your comment.   I appreciate it.

Grace and peace,
cris

I just dont believe the story is supposed.

Oh, cris . . .

Please understand, that I know how grievous this is.  I have met and talked with many women who are in this position.  They have no where to turn.  It causes me such pain when I talk to them.  I try to help them, but you are so right - the enemy has done such a good job of keeping them in this kind of bondage.  The years of verbal abuse are nothing short of brainwashing and there is little self esteem and strength to make a go of it.  The husband is just too controlling and knows exactly how to manipulate the situation to his liking.

Ok, this is making me angry.  I am going to pm with you.  It's time to get serious and help this woman.

shalom, nana