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Revelation 3:20.  Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Jesus Christ knocks at the door. If any man hears and opens the door, Christ comes in.

Christ does the knocking, man does the hearing and opening.

Does this tell us anything about Jesus Christ's active part and man's active part in coming to Christ? Does man choose to open the door after hearing?

Ollie,

On the surface, this one verse by itself, sure sounds as thou it, would support your theory.

However, the context of this passage must be considered in its entirety, and then in order to understand it, must be supported by the entire teaching of all other scripture.


Here is the entire passage:  Please keep in mind who is speaking here:

Rev 3
7  And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith He that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, He that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
8  I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
9  Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
10  Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11  Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
12  Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
13  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
14  And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
15  I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16  So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
17  Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18  I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
19  As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
20  Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21  To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
22  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

The key to understanding this passage, is found in verses 7 and 20.

But this is not where it ends, consider this passage; the Apostle John writes, concerning Jesus;


Jhn 12
36  While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.
37  But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38  That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39  Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40  He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
41  These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.
42  Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:
43  For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.
44  Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.
45  And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.
46  I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
48  He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
49  For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
50  And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

Now the key verses in this passage, shed light on the idea who hears and opens at verse you quote (Rev 3:20)

And in this final passage the answer is found to your theory, only those who receive the words of God and keep it, by doing it are given to Jesus by the Father.

Jhn 17
17:1  These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2  As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3  And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4  I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5  And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6  [/b]I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were,[/b] and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7  Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8  For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.


And finally, please note verse 6, them whom God gives to Jesus, belonged to Him, before they were given to Jesus,

So,  then if this is true, those who hear Jesus knocking at the door, do so, because they believed God, and because it was given to them to hear from  heaven of God.

Jhn 3
27  John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.

Where is free will here, the best that can be made of this is that any man who receives hearing and understanding from God,  to do anything that regards God or the things of God, for God, is excersicing that which has been given to him, honestly..


God Bless,

Petro

It's a wonder anyone can be a believer. I can't do anything. I can't have faith, I can't receive, I can't open a door, I can't shut a door, I can't hear, I can't obey, I can't repent, I can't respond, I can't ask, I can't knock, I can't seek, I have nothing to do with anything, I can only rebel.
Grace is meaningless to me because I have no part in it. It is fruitless to tell anyone anything 'cause they can't do anything about what I tell them anyway.
Jesus should have said, Don't repent or believe 'cause you can't do it anyway, I have to do it for you.
You make the word of God of none effect because it cannot bring about a response in me. I am a puppet with no free will.
Now you can begin to speak out of the other side of your mouth.

In His Love,

asaph

asaph,

You are begining to get it..

You can't because you are dead...............in sin and tresspass, in your case, it may be you weren't all that dead.

I wouldn't claim otherwise.

Understanding that one is spiritually dead, to God, is a good place to begin.  Unless God calls any man forth by name from the dead, he can never hear God.  

Maybe you heard  of your own doing, according to your version, I don't think this is true, you may..

If one begins understanding he was spiritually dead, he won't allow the idea that he believed go to his head.  And give occasion to the flesh to claim, in boasting  "I beleived", which you all do...

The truth is, everyone whom God saves, was given the gift to believe..what he could never believe, and without divine intervention everyone will have perished.

I am amazed, christians want to take credit for it..

What you and those who believe your version of God's great work, abhorr (because you don't want God to get all of the Glory, you seek a little bit your own glory), I find confort in, that God did all that was necessary for my salvation, even giving me, the faith, to believe in Jesus, whom I never cared about and would have never come to left to my own devices.

Praise God..



Petro

2Co 4:13  We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;

No matter how you dissect or annalize it, when I heard the Gospel I believed and repented. These verbs are still being lived out in my life. Where is boasting? It is excluded.

Rom 3:27  What is left for us to brag about? Not a thing! Is it because we obeyed some law? No! It is because of faith.
Rom 3:28  We see that people are acceptable to God because they have faith, and not because they obey the Law.

The very nature of faith excludes boasting, so how can you say I am boasting about my faith? I boast only in Jesus for who he is and what he has accomplished at Calvary. Are you boasting about your superior knowledge of the scripture and looking down with pity at those of us who take a different interpretation. Faith is simply a response of a lost sinner to the Gospel of grace. Faith is how we receive grace. Faith is believing in the grace which we did not manufacture or even think up.

Gal 1:6  I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
 
They began with faith but did not continue in faith. They added works to try to maintain God's acceptance. All they needed was to return to faith.

Gal 2:16  But we know that God accepts only those who have faith in Jesus Christ. No one can please God by simply obeying the Law. So we put our faith in Christ Jesus, and God accepted us because of our faith.
Gal 2:20  I have died, but Christ lives in me. And I now live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave his life for me.
Gal 2:21  I don't turn my back on God's undeserved kindness. If we can be acceptable to God by obeying the Law, it was useless for Christ to die.

The gospel is the power of God; our faith simply substantiates it. There is no virtue or praise that comes to us because we have faith.

Rom 1:16  I am proud of the good news! It is God's powerful way of saving all people who have faith, whether they are Jews or Gentiles.
Rom 1:17  The good news tells how God accepts everyone who has faith, but only those who have faith. It is just as the Scriptures say, "The people God accepts because of their faith will live."

I am proud of the good news, not my faith. Think of it! If I were to say, "Oh, I'm really proud of my faith; look what it got me!" That's not faith; that's presumption. But I can boast in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ; that's faith in action.

I think you focus too much on the word "faith" and too little on Jesus in whom we trust. Just believe Him and do not worry about where faith came from. Faith is faith. I did not even think about the word faith when I beleived. I just simply trusted Jesus.

Col 1:21  You used to be far from God. Your thoughts made you his enemies, and you did evil things.
Col 1:22  But his Son became a human and died. So God made peace with you, and now he lets you stand in his presence as people who are holy and faultless and innocent.
Col 1:23  But you must stay deeply rooted and firm in your faith. You must not give up the hope you received when you heard the good news. It was preached to everyone on earth, and I myself have become a servant of this message.

Blessings,

asaph

I hear what you say, and agree, concerning how "FAITH" was obtained.

It is quite an altogether different message, once one starts to examine, what is taught by this camp.

And,  as soon as you say, that the gift, which presumably you acquired by faith, can be lost, and is not ETERNAL, I disagree, because this disagrees with what is wrtten.

And therefore requires dissection, for your benefit..

The flaw, is found in what it was you actually believed, because of what is said  by those who claim, "ETERNAL LIFE" is not ETERNAL, the emphasis and focus of these, is what one did, and what one does, to eventually get there.

This then is evidence, that claiming the possession maybe a presumption, because it is based on ones own "works".

The dissection then, is beneficial, beacause one  then can then examine the sobering aspect of what the word actually teaches.

Either all are dead or none are dead, before faith comes.

This is clearly seeing in the teaching concerning Lazarus, Jesus had to plainly state "Lazarus is dead" (Jhn 11:14), because his disciples, didn't believe he was.

Ole, Lazarus only heard the voice of Jesus, when it was given him (Jhn 3:27) from above to hear, the words of Jesus are heard only by those to whom it gransted that they may hear.
 
This is the nut of the teaching.  Only those whom the Father draw, can hear, because "Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God." (Rom 10:17)

Did you hear him, because you were not totally dead, or, just a little dead??

Talk about speaking out of both sides of the mouth!

Eph 2:1, clearly says;


And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins:

It is a given fact all who [/b]were dead[/b] are made alive, in Christ, and receive faith, because of His righteous works, and nothing else, however it is not true at all, that one who has been given to the Lord Jesus, by the father can be lost, according to Jesus himself, who says;

Jhn 6
37  All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38  For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39  And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40  And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The WILL of God, is the deciding factor in this matter, not our will..

Quite a difference, wouldn't you agree??


Blessings,
Petro

Petro my Brother,
Remember what Jesus said, "They shall all be taught of God." If english words have any meaning, and they do, the "all" means just that "all". Now, a teacher has thirty students all sitting there in a classroom, but not all are hearing and learning from the teacher. Lets suppose the teacher says, "I want you all to leave right now. Those that were hearing get up and leave and those that did not hear stay. They think those others are acting out of line but they are the ones out of line themselves. This is how it is with the gospel call.
Whosoever means whosoever, all means all and everyone means everyone.
As I said earlier there is no merit in faith itself but only in what faith holds. We are held and hold by our faith. God's grace is useless if there is no faith. This is the mystery of Godliness. Grace came first. Faith came as a result of hearing. They shall all be taught of God. Some were not listening. Some, who did listen, later decided to add the Law to their faith and fell from grace. What is so difficult about this? A child can understand it. What makes you think that because I believe this I somehow  merit this grace, when faith is just a response to the unmerited favor of God? Cain could have exercised faith, just as Abel did. Abel trusted, Cain did not. They were both taught of God. This is Bible 101.

All praise goes to God!

asaph

asaph,

This is where the dog knot is in these teachings, you espouse to.

You believe that those who are taught of God, can indeed fall out of grace, I don't!

The hypothetical you give, reveals where your error is.

They who are taught of God, believe God, and in doing so, God then gives them to the Son, the Holy Spirit, giving and equipping them, with everything necessary to comne to svaing faith in Jesus, (these are the things which we have been speaking of) trusting, believing, grace, faith, eternal life, being sealed by the Spirit of Truth.............growing in faith and so on.....etc.

From your vantage point, in being taught in this classroom, you already rest in unbelief, which contradicts the very words of Jesus, He says;  I give them eternal life, and threy shall never perish; you say they can fall out of grace, and perish.

From my vantage point, these whom you say can fall out of grace; I simply see, as never having possessed grace, beacuse of unbelief, afterall the same teaching is given to all, their belief  (and who knows what the object of their belief is)
is not mixed with faith, because they never received it.

This fits perfectly with the passage at Heb 6:4-6, wherein these, were privileged to sit under the tutelage of the Spirit of God, but in the end rejected the truth of the teaching, this is why they, can never be brought back to repentance.

The Faith which is of God, should produce understanding in Gods people, especially of these doctrines which are the basis for the foundation to ones own portion of the manner in which one builds, on the "foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;" (Eph 2:20)

We have to accept one another as brethern in Christ, no matter how weak ones faith  may be, we share this things, to strengthen each other, so long as the brethern who declare themselves to be children of God, are not involved in giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; this takes discernment.

The teaching that the saved lose their salvation, borders on this very thing, and turns the Gospel of Grace into a Gospel of Grace and Works.

Because it practically denies, the blood that bought them.

Christians  who name the name of Christ need to take heed and depart from this evil thing.  I say this, because everything that is not of FAITH is sin.


God Bless,

Petro

Joh 6:45  It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Petro,
You said-
You believe that those who are taught of God, can indeed fall out of grace, I don't!

Actually I believe that God teaches all people before they are in Grace in order that they might enter into Grace by faith.

As God teaches they either stop their ears or they hear and learn and thereby come unto Jesus.

Falling from Grace is possible only for those who are already in Grace. The Galatians are an example of this.

Gal 5:1  Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Gal 5:2  Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
Gal 5:3  For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Gal 5:4  Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. Gal 5:5  For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

Faith merits nothing. Faith is our response to Gods Grace. We wait for the hope of righteousness by faith not by works of the Law. Shipwreck your faith and see what happens. (actually God forbid that you shipwreck your faith). Would you want to be responsible for someone turning from faith to the Law? To fall from Grace is to cease trusting Jesus for our salvation and to attempt to keep it by observing the Law. So it is possible to loose our salvation. However why worry, cast your care on Jesus. Just quit trying and start trusting.

I praise you Father for showing these simple truths to both the ignorant and the intelligent. I put my trust in you for my complete salvation and do not rely one bit on my works. Thankyou for the Grace which is in Christ Jesus alone. Father if someone should try to get me to do some ceremony or be circumcised  in order to keep my saved status, I reject it outright; for you alone are my salvation!

asaph

We can fall away by mixing works of the Law with Grace but can we fall away by mixing sin with Grace?  

Paul taught Christians the following:

For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live (Rom. 8:13).
Some say this death is physical death, while others say it is spiritual death, like the kind Adam and Eve experienced after they sinned. Is there a way we can know for certain? By comparing Scripture with Scripture we can know what he is referring to. On three different occasions Paul taught Christians what would happen to them if they would live according to the flesh (or sinful nature)—the one just cited in Rom. 8:13 and the following two:
The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God (Gal. 5:19-21).
The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life (Gal. 6:8).

By comparing these passages, we can see that Paul warns Christians they will "die" by living according to the sinful nature (Rom. 8:13); "not inherit the kingdom of God" if they live out the acts of the sinful nature (Gal. 5:19-21) and "reap destruction" in contrast to "eternal life" by sowing to please the sinful nature (Gal. 6:8). In other words, the "die" of Rom. 8:13 is the same as "not inherit[ing] the kingdom of God" in Gal. 5:19-21 and the "reap[ing of] destruction" of Gal. 6:8.
Hence, by comparing these Scriptures, we know Paul taught Christians they will "die" spiritually, if they live according to the sinful nature. James also declared the exact same truth:

But each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death. Don't be deceived, my dear brothers (James 1:14-16).
This is also what God had informed mankind from the very beginning on down through the centuries:
And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die" (Gen. 2:16,17).
If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, he will die for it (Ezek. 33:18).

Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? (Rom. 6:16).

While sin leads to spiritual death, a faith in Jesus which produces holiness and obedience results in eternal life:
But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord (Rom. 6:22,23).
To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. (Rom 2:7).

... the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life (Gal. 6:8).

Though this is what the original Christians taught and believed themselves, in our day the aforementioned truths have been opposed and flatly denied by the eternal security teachers. Friends, as James wrote, "Don't be deceived, my dear brothers" (1:14-16).

asaph

You are going around in circles, asaph.

No wonder you are unable to see the truths of what is written, you simply do not believe Jesus own words.

Everyone will be judged according to every word He ever spoke, are you aware of this?? (Deut 18:18-20)

According to your gospel, which you have delineated in this last post, you are saved by faith you produced, and its what you do which in the end determines whether you are saved, it is not a reality for you here and now..

Your opening sentence, appears to say something, but infact, doesn't say anything meaningfull, since you already agree, that by the observance of the Law, no one can be saved, and yet, you state, that you can fall away by mixing the law and grace, or sin and grace, both are one and the same,

The law is not of faith, and anything that is not of faith is sin.

Yet you say, one can fall away, by mixing them,

This and ;


This point, is not true, (this verse is speaking of them which do not possess the spirit, this is clear by what verse 5, says;

For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh;

And who are these  that mind the things of the flesh?? But they who are unsaved.

You are unable to unravel, what scriptuer appears to be saying, because you assume it is speaking about believers.

Roms 8
1  There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

From this point on, those who are spoken of that walk after the spirit are the children of God, and those whom are spoken of that go after the flesh are the unsaved.

Nut why am I trying to point this out to you, you should be able to comprehend this... by know.

Unfortunately you don't.

I guess, Jesus didn't die for all of your sins, just for a few of them, or was it because His blood was not sufficient to pay for them all??


Later,

Petro

According to your gospel, which you have delineated in this last post, you are saved by faith you produced, and its what you do which in the end determines whether you are saved, it is not a reality for you here and now..

Beloved Petro,
How did I produce faith? Faith came to me from hearing the Word. Just trust in the Word of God and live. Don't use His grace for an occasion for the flesh, or you will die. The wages of sin is death, whether you are a Christian or not. God is powerful, but He is not mocked.

Gal 6:7  Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
Gal 6:8  For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Were those words written to believers or not?

"Have faith in God." That is a general command to all. If faith were not available to all then the command is in vain for some.

Mat 8:5  And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him,
Mat 8:6  And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented.
Mat 8:7  And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him.
Mat 8:8  The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.
Mat 8:9  For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.
Mat 8:10  When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

Why did Jesus marvel? if faith comes to only those who are predestined to eternal life, as you say, and Jesus knows what is in man, and He knows those who are His, why did He marvel? There would have to be something in man that cooperates with the grace of God. Otherwise no marvel. Jesus said what He marveled about; we are not left in the dark:
I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
Evidently the man heard the word along the way and believed with great faith in the grace of God. The possibility was there for him to doubt. What a marvel that he chose to believe instead!

asaph

Everyone will be judged according to every word He ever spoke, are you aware of this??

I certainly am. But thank God it won't be by the Calvinists or the Arminians.

asaph

Rom 8:12  Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13  For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Petro,
How can you say verse 13a refers to those who have never been saved when verse 12 says "brethren", and the "ye" of verse 13 points to "brethren" of verse 12? And how can something already dead die? Don't say it is physical death, there is no threat there; we are going to die physically regardless of the way we walk.

Blessings,

asaph

What you and those who believe your version of God's great work, abhorr (because you don't want God to get all of the Glory, you seek a little bit your own glory), I find confort in, that God did all that was necessary for my salvation, even giving me, the faith, to believe in Jesus, whom I never cared about and would have never come to left to my own devices.

Praise God..

Petro,
When God gave you faith what did you do with it? What was the circumstance of your receiving God's gift?
To one it was: go to the Pool of Siloam and wash. (He came seeing)To another it was: stretch forth your hand. (His hand was made whole) To another it was: go your way and show yourself to the priest. (He was cleansed of his leprosy; where are the other nine?) To another it was: sell all you have and give to the poor.
This last one went away sorrowful. Was he not given the same faith or was Jesus just toying with him like a cat pawing at a mouse? Jesus looked at him and loved him yet he still went away sorrowing. I believe that he was given a measure of faith, even as we all are given, but he buried the one talent and lost it all.
You say I want some of the credit yet God is my witness that this is  not true. You are assuming things that are way out of your ability to know.
This is why I do not join either the Calvinist or Arminian sects. They make themselves judges over things that they do not have a clue about. I love my brethren from both camps but their religous bents stink to high heaven.
I also find comfort in God's Grace; Jesus is God's Grace. You ever stop to think you could be wrong? You want everything in nice little rows wrapped up in ribbons and bows. If it does not fit your thinking then you try to find a way to force it to fit. Love covers over a multitude of sins.

asaph  

What you and those who believe your version of God's great work, abhorr (because you don't want God to get all of the Glory, you seek a little bit your own glory), I find confort in, that God did all that was necessary for my salvation, even giving me, the faith, to believe in Jesus, whom I never cared about and would have never come to left to my own devices

Amen asaph Amen

A4C,
You mean amen petro amen. Thems petros words.

Love ya Bro,

asaph

PS Love petro too.

asaph,

If what Rom 8:12 and 13, were a possibility; would the Apostle have written, verse 38-39??

Listen carefully,

Rom 8
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39  Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I don't know what other thing, can separate us from the love of God, once we have come into fellowship with Him, Can you think of something??

Can you separate yourself from the love of God??  Apparently you, believe you can...

A lady a while back, said to me;  Nothing may be able to separate me from the love of God but, I could jump out of His hand if I wanted to..Imagine that...My question to her would be;

WOULD, Anyone that understands what they have saved from, ever want to jump out of his hand??

This in itself shows, this person trusts in their own doings, rather in what God has done..

This is why I asked you, before,  and I ask you again;

When Jesus died and shed his blood for the remission of your sins, did He die for ALL of you SINS??

or,

Just some of your sins??

Apparently, you do believe, some sin exists, which a believer (such as yourself) can commit in a moment of weakness or willingly, which,  can indeed cause one to lose his free gift of  Eternal Life.  

If this is true, then inspite of what you say,  whom or what you believe, you simply do not believe, God; never mind believe Jesus.

Listen to Jesus's words;

Jhn 12
44  ...................  He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.
45   And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.
46  I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
47   And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
48  He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

(Please note, from the verse above, everyone will be judged in the last day by the word, not the ten commandments, as some argue.)

49   For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
50  And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.


Jhn 19
25  ...................  I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.  
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.  
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28  And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.  
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.  
30  I and my Father are one.

Jhn 14
23  ..........................  If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24   He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

Do you believe you have eternal life, asaph??

Can you lose it??

You have already testified to the affirmative to this last question, your testimony, puts you at odds, with the Savior's own words;  He says;

Jhn 3
11  Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.  
12  If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?  
13  And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.  
14  And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15   That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.  
16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Note, verse 16,   not only do you not, believe Jesus, you don't believe Jesus's testimony about God the Father, whom He says;

......gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life

Yes, I have heard your testimony, but you deny the words of the savior; your own words of denial, speak louder than the words of your faith, your practice, that which you confess, that one can lose his gift, denies the grace of God.

According to Jesus, His words  we read above, are the words of the Father. God the Father confirms this himself;  Your attention is invited to Deut 18:18-19, where He says;

18  I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
19  And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

Pure and simple you reject, His words, because you trust in your own ability to keep yourself, from sin, you do not trust in the power of God to keep you, and this is the condemnation.

Whether you are saved or not, is not mine to judge, however, anyone can mouth certain words, but the proof is in the pudding as they say;

On what do you hang your hope??

On Jesus, who paid the debt you owe for your sins, or your ability to keep yourself from sinning that one sin which can cause you to lose it all??

Now, to answer your question;

Because of verses 38 and 39, in this chapter, as I have stated, I do not believe, this is speaking of believer's spiritual  death,  it is true, believers are able to sin, but because of what Jesus has accomplished it is impossible, that this verse can be speaking of a spiritual death, this is why I said this is not speaking of believers. I simply disagree with your interpretation.

But, if these were speaking of believers, it could only be speaking of a physical death, and here is why..

Both of the verses you quote, are and exhortation given to Christians, that they might examine themselves to see if they are walking in the faith.

Rom 8
12  Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13  For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

It is evident to me you do not understand what the scriptures are teaching here at all..from your explanation.

And as the Spirit allows, I will show this to you, it is found in the mystery of the Gospel, which those who believe, they can lose their gift of eternal life are unable to see, because of unbelief.

The first question, one should ask himself is;  What is it; "to live after the flesh"??

Continued.................sorry  it is so long..

This question, is answered by the same Paul who wrote the book of Galatians for us in Chapter 5:

16  This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17  For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18  But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19  Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20  Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
22  But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
21  Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Please take note of verse 19, fornication.

The Apostle Paul, gives us a clear example of a believer who was caught living/walking in the flesh , here is the folloing account;

1 Cor 5
1  It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2  And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3  For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4  In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5  To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
6  Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
7  Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
8  Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
9  I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
10  Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
11  But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12  For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13  But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

Take note of verse 5,   This brother who was living in fornication was "To be delivered such  unto Satan for the destruction of his flesh, that the spirit might be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

The Apostle, not once mentions, a loss of the gift of "Eternal Life", it is plain from the language, that this individual was saved, even while living in sin, and it appears it had been for a season, it was not something which had occured recently, but it matters little, the fact is, this man was involved in open sin, and everyone knew it.

Know, knowing the way you all, think, allow me to head you off at the pass, and  to remind you, that if this man had lost his salvation; for truly it is undeniable that this man, was a professing Christian who believed according to this passage, and had not only tasted, but had been made a full partaker of the Holy Spirit, and had been forgiven of all his sins, because of the language of this certainty, which Paul uses at verse 5, "To deliver such an one unto Satan".

There are  three points which can be made herein;

1. This individual lived in open rebellion to God, he willingly commited "Fornication" in plain sight, of all.
2. If this man, was not a believer, there would have been no, need to deliver him, to Satan the prince of the power of the air, since he already belonged to Satan. (Eph 2:1-2)
3. He could not have been brought back to repentance again;  since Heb 6, tells us;

Heb 6
4  For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5  And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6  If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Which brings us full circle to the question, I asked you;

Did Jesus pay for all of your sins or, only some of your sins??

If this mans sin, caused is spiritual death, he could never be brought back to repentance, because, there is no other blood (other than Jesus's blood) which can take away sin.

And therefore Paul the Apostle, when he wrote these inspired words, at:

verse 5,  ".........that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. was writing truth.

You do not believe what you preach, you say, that a Christian can lose his salvation, when he sins, but afterwards you teach, he can be brought back to repentance, contrary to scripture.

My question to this teaching is;

By whose blood, is the sin, which causes a Christians to fall from grace, purged, allowing grace once again to bring him, into the Sonship of God??

Jesus, only died once and for all, and He shed all of His Blood once and for all.

Is this not true??

These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. (1 Jhn 5:13)

God Bless,

Petro

Amen & Amen

Thanks Petro

Brother Love :)

asaph,

Well, I am amazed to hear this, since you have arguing the Armenian position, all along.

The deception is in the treaching, that one is not eternally secure, in the hand of the Father, are you denying this is not what you have been saying??

How is it you are not Armenian, yet advance this teaching..........That one can lose the free gift of God.

So please explain this to me, what must a Christian, do to come back to God?? if  he sins??

God Bless,

Petro

Matthew 7:

7.  Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
 8.  For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

Ollie,

Amen and Thank You, I can see you understand this truth.

Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth. (Jhn 9:31)

Mat 7:7, is directed to believers, note Mat 7:6, the previous cautions believers not to give that which is Holy to dogs (unbelievers);

Mat 7
6  Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

So, clearly, anyone who can seek, knock, receive and find, is a child of God, who is secure in his position in Christ.

This is made clear, in the Gospel of Christ, who died for all of your sins.


Petro

I hate to crash this party, but may I add another perspective?
This has become a debate over free will verses election; but is this what the passage really is talking about?

To put all this in proper perspective one has to realize that Jesus is speaking to the seven churches of Asia Minor (modern day Turkey). Although, these churches were filled with Christians, some were seriously lacking in their commitment to the Lord Jesus. These passages are actually an indictment of their behavior (some godly/ and ungodly). When you get to the aforementioned verse Rev 3:20 isn't Jesus really just wanting to enter His own church?  After all Jesus just spoke previously in Rev 3:16 that He would vomit them out of His mouth. Jesus was simply stating to THE CHURCH to repent.This passage isn't refering to unbelievers ( although most have been taught this is a salvation verse). The added emphasiss is in chapters 1-3 in becoming overcomers.

Another interesting fact is that all these churches now lie in ruin. Turkey is a country that is predominately Muslim. This should serve as a warning.

In defense of election, may I ask the following question? How many of God's holy prophet's chose him? How many of Jesus's original 12 disciples chose Him?


" No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:44

Sincerely,
Psalm 119

asaph,

Well, I am amazed to hear this, since you have arguing the Armenian position, all along.

The deception is in the treaching, that one is not eternally secure, in the hand of the Father, are you denying this is not what you have been saying??

How is it you are not Armenian, yet advance this teaching..........That one can lose the free gift of God.

So please explain this to me, what must a Christian, do to come back to God?? if  he sins??

God Bless,

Petro

Actually I am arguing the Bible's position. If Arminius and I agree on some points that's OK.
I believe one who has faith in the work and oerson of Jesus Christ is secure. Abandon your trust in Him you could ultimately lose your salvation.
To come back to God if one sins as Paul did you simply repent and believe the Gospel. There is nothing in the Bible that says you cannot return to God having backsliden away. Yes, there are cetain cases where you can't come back, such as blaspemy against the Holy Spirit. However there are some cases where one can be restored. Paul in Romans 11 speaks of those individual Jews whom God is able to graft in again provided they do not continue in unbelief. Paul himself became a branch broken off. For he continued in Judaism even after Calvary when God cut off the legitimacy of animal sacrifices for the one scrifice of Christ for sins for ever. he even wasted the church. But later, we know he was grafted back in on the road to Damascus. To assert otherwise to to say that people could not be saved under the old economy. The Galatians in many cases fell from grace but Paul was not in despair for he travailed in birth again until Christ should be formed in them. So to say that no one can return having backslidden away is ludicrous. The case in Hebrews is unique to them in that they left the old sacrifices to follow Christ, but now were tempted to go back to the old sacrifices again. This is flirting with an unpardonable sin which has no remedy. There is a sin unto death that we are not to pray for. But there are cases where people can come back.

Love ya,

asaph

asaph,

If what Rom 8:12 and 13, were a possibility; would the Apostle have written, verse 38-39??

Listen carefully,

Rom 8
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39  Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I don't know what other thing, can separate us from the love of God, once we have come into fellowship with Him, Can you think of something??

The word that is conspicuously missing from Pauls list of things not able to separate us from the love of God is unbelief.

I believe that verse; I believe God. I am secure in His love! Stop believing and I have reason to be insecure.

I believe God!

asaph

WOULD, Anyone that understands what they have saved from, ever want to jump out of his hand??

Petro,
You are assuming that the impossibility is there.
Paul would never assume that. That is why He warns believers to continue in the faith. Jesus Himself said to remain in Him and continue in His love. What abot the deceitfulness of sin? Sin is also not in Pauls list of things that cannot separate us from the love of God. Amazing! Sin and unbelief could actually do much destruction!

1Co 15:1  Now I made known to you, brothers, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which you also stand,
1Co 15:2  through which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain.

This is not works this is faith. Hold fast the word by faith.

Still love me?

asaph

 

Apparently, you do believe, some sin exists, which a believer (such as yourself) can commit in a moment of weakness or willingly, which,  can indeed cause one to lose his free gift of  Eternal Life.  

Petro,
Not all sins are unto death but all sins need to be confessed and forsaken.

Blessings,

asaph

Do you believe you have eternal life, asaph??

Yes, but not separate from Christ. Life is in the Son. I have life only in Him. I am secure only in Him.

Can you lose it??

Not while trusting in Jesus and His work.

Rom 4:19  And not weakening in faith, he did not consider his own body, already having been worn out (being about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah's womb,
Rom 4:20  he did not waver at the promise of God in unbelief, but was empowered by faith, giving glory to God,
Rom 4:21  and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to do.
Rom 4:22  And therefore "it was accounted to him for righteousness."
Rom 4:23  Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was accounted to him,
Rom 4:24  but for us also, to whom it was going to be imputed, those believing on Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead,
Rom 4:25  who was delivered up for our transgressions, and was raised for our justification.

asaph

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Note, verse 16,  not only do you not, believe Jesus, you don't believe Jesus's testimony about God the Father, whom He says;

......gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life

Petro my brother,

Life is in the Son. I do not posess life in and of myself but only as I abide in the Son by faith. The quality of the life of Jesus is eternal. Severed from Him, the eternal life flow is stopped. Then one withers and is gathered and burned.

You Gotta have faith,

asaph

Yes, I have heard your testimony, but you deny the words of the savior; your own words of denial, speak louder than the words of your faith, your practice, that which you confess, that one can lose his gift, denies the grace of God.

Petro Friend,
That's what you think. The next thing you will say is I never really believed. That's the biggest Calvinistic eraser there is for tons of scriptures. And now you are probably finding comfort just knowing I am not really saved. That's because you think I have to believe OSAS in order to be truely saved. Sad.

asaph  :(

Pure and simple you reject, His words, because you trust in your own ability to keep yourself, from sin, you do not trust in the power of God to keep you, and this is the condemnation.

Not true Brother,
My prayer is: "lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil."
I trust (faith  :)) in God to keep me, not in the OSAS doctrine.

asaph

Because of verses 38 and 39, in this chapter, as I have stated, I do not believe, this is speaking of believer's spiritual  death,  it is true, believers are able to sin, but because of what Jesus has accomplished it is impossible, that this verse can be speaking of a spiritual death, this is why I said this is not speaking of believers. I simply disagree with your interpretation.

Petro,
Again, Life is in the Son, not in us. We are partakers of the divine nature. We gain the Life Flow as we abide in Jesus by faith. Not all sin is unto death but there is a sin unto death. Every sin should be confessed and forsaken.

Peace,

asaph

But, if these were speaking of believers, it could only be speaking of a physical death, and here is why..

Both of the verses you quote, are and exhortation given to Christians, that they might examine themselves to see if they are walking in the faith.

All people die physically. Some Christians die martyrs. The threat here is not physical but spiritual death.

Rom 8:12  Therefore, brothers, we are debtors--not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.
Rom 8:13  For if you live according to the flesh you shall die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the practices of the body, you will live.

Lots of Love,

asaph

Take note of verse 5,  This brother who was living in fornication was "To be delivered such  unto Satan for the destruction of his flesh, that the spirit might be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

The Apostle, not once mentions, a loss of the gift of "Eternal Life", it is plain from the language, that this individual was saved, even while living in sin, and it appears it had been for a season, it was not something which had occured recently, but it matters little, the fact is, this man was involved in open sin, and everyone knew it.

Petro,
Pauls concern was that the brother may be lost. His hope was that he might be saved. It does not say that he definately would be saved but might be saved. Even if he had not lost his salvation this does not prove that it is not possible. This may have been an extreme measure to prevent the loss.

asaph

There are  three points which can be made herein;

1. This individual lived in open rebellion to God, he willingly commited "Fornication" in plain sight, of all.
2. If this man, was not a believer, there would have been no, need to deliver him, to Satan the prince of the power of the air, since he already belonged to Satan. (Eph 2:1-2)
3. He could not have been brought back to repentance again;  since Heb 6, tells us;

Heb 6
4  For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5  And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6  If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Which brings us full circle to the question, I asked you;

Did Jesus pay for all of your sins or, only some of your sins??

If this mans sin, caused is spiritual death, he could never be brought back to repentance, because, there is no other blood (other than Jesus's blood) which can take away sin.

Petro,
The Hebrews passage is a special case. The Jews left the type for the reality and were tempted to return to the type. But there remains no more sacrifice for sin in the type. In fact they would actually be crucifying the Son of God afresh. This is an unpardonable sin, a sin unto spiritual death. They were facing a very real peril of losing their salvation.

If this fornicator had not been given over to Satan would his spirit be saved in the day of Christ? Why such tough measures if there were no danger? I wonder if the man repented and did not actually have to undergo physical punishment. There is good reason to believe that he did repent and was restored.

1Co 5:5 -
To deliver - This is the sentence which is to be executed. You are to deliver him to Satan, etc.
Unto Satan - Beza, and the Latin fathers, suppose that this is only an expression of excommunication. They say, that in the Scriptures there are but two kingdoms recognized - the kingdom of God, or the church, and the kingdom of the world, which is regarded as under the control of Satan; and that to exclude a man from one is to subject him to the dominion of the other. There is some foundation for this opinion; and there can be no doubt that excommunication is here intended, and that, by excommunication, the offender was in some sense placed under the control of Satan. It is further evident that it is here supposed that by being thus placed under him the offender would be subject to corporal inflictions by the agency of Satan, which are here called the “destruction of the flesh.” Satan is elsewhere referred to as the author of bodily diseases. Thus, in the case of Job, Job_2:7. A similar instance is mentioned in 1Ti_1:20, where Paul says he had delivered Hymeneus and Alexander to “Satan, that they might learn not to blaspheme.” It may be observed here that though this was to be done by the concurrence of the church, as having a right to administer discipline, yet it was directed by apostolic authority; and there is no evidence that this was the usual form of excommunication, nor ought it now to be used. There was evidently miraculous power evinced in this case, and that power has long since ceased in the church.
For the destruction of the flesh - We may observe here:
(1) That this does not mean that the man was to die under the infliction of the censure, for the object was to recover him; and it is evident that, whatever he suffered as the consequence of this, he survived it, and Paul again instructed the Corinthians to admit him to their fellowship, 2Co_2:7.
(2) it was designed to punish him for licentiousness of life - often called in the Scriptures one of the sins, or works of the flesh Gal_5:19, and the design was that the punishment should follow “in the line of the offence,” or be a just retribution - as punishment often does. Many have supposed that by the “destruction of the flesh” Paul meant only the destruction of his fleshly appetites or carnal affections; and that he supposed that this would be effected by the act of excommunication. But it is very evident from the Scriptures that the apostles were imbued with the power of inflicting diseases or bodily calamities for crimes. See Act_13:11; 1Co_11:30. What this bodily malady was we have no means of knowing. It is evident that it was not of very long duration, since when the apostle exhorts them 2Co_2:7 again to receive him, there is no mention made of his suffering then under it - This was an extraordinary and miraculous power. It was designed for the government of the church in its infancy, when everything was suited to show the direct agency of God; and it ceased, doubtless, with the apostles. The church now has no such power. It cannot now work miracles; and all its discipline now is to be moral discipline, designed not to inflict bodily pain and penalties, but to work a moral reformation in the offender.
That the spirit may be saved - That his soul might be saved; that he might be corrected, humbled, and reformed by these sufferings, and recalled to the paths of piety and virtue. This expresses the true design of the discipline of the church, and it ought never to be inflicted but with a direct intention to benefit the offender, and to save the soul. Even when he is cut off and disowned, the design should not be vengeance, or punishment merely, but it should be to recover him and save him from ruin.
In the day of the Lord Jesus - The Day of Judgment when the Lord Jesus shall come, and shall collect his people to himself.

Barnes

God Bless,

asaph

Asaph,

The more you try to explain, what you perceive scripture to teach, the more it becomes evident, you do not understand it, and reject the teaching of it.

I got to hand it to you, you do use the right words, unfortunately they don't jive, with your explanations, your intrepetations of  the "special cases" give you away. This reminds me of the teaching of the Catholic church, Christains cannot agree with their teaching, unless one first forces them to define words.

In a response to A4C, on July 12, 2002, in the Salvation is for Eternity thread, you said;


If this is true, why do you contradict Jesus's own words, with your teaching, about "ETERNAL LIFE"


You believe somehow these branches, that have been burned, can be grafted back into the vine, this is evident by your  interpretation of Rom 11,  concerning Paul you write;



What??, You believe the Apostle Paul, was saved, forsook God, and then was reborn again of the Spirit of God??    

Where, do you get this idea??
 
And then you call,  Heb 6, a special case,  failing recognize this is speaking of unbelievers,

Isn't  Romans 11, specifically speaking of those who are in unbelief??,

They are grafted in, only after coming to Faith, it says nothing of having believed, they fell from Faith, (Grace) or that they were "branches cut off and burned" and come to belief a second time, in the Gospel.

How can branches which are burned be grafted to anything??  Can you explain??

I really thought you had a better command of the scriptures.

Your problem is;

You can't accept Faith is gift of God  to sinners underserving of His grace. So, it naturally follows that such a superficial understanding of how you obtained yours, leads to this teaching.

Unfortunately, This is not taught at all, in the scriputres.
You entered this thread at reply #2,  frusterated that there is nothing you could do to come to salvation, you even enumerated the things which you believe brought you to faith in Christ Jesus;  it has been showen to you, how that, before you ever even began to trust in the Gospel of the Kingdom, God thru His spirit began to work in you to breakdown your resistance to the very word , which in the end would accomplish this great work of God in you.

It began when God  chose you, by electing you from before the foundations of the world, and then in due time you received the hearing necessary to hear the word of God, His word was preached to you at the appponted time, in which you placed some degree trust, and by the diligent work of the Spirit, who tirelessly works in all those whom God has appointed to salvation  by faith in Jesus, He (the Spirit) by the Grace of God, gave you the faith which is of God to believe in Him, whom you would never have believed in, let alone His testimony, and by it came to Faith in Jesus, who by the Spirit of God gave you Eternal Life, having sealed you until the time appointed of His coming to claim the purchased possession, (which is a reality if indeed, these things I have written are true, in your life)( and I pray it is true, but you explanations raise more questions than answer them.) in whom by your own testimony do believe.

You may believe, that perhaps, there was a spark of life in your dead spiritual condition (but it won't change the fact there wasn't, any life in you, otherwise, it would not be refferred to as the New Birth),

which enabled you to somehow miraculous hear, and believe the Word of God, when it was preached to you but, unfortunately, this is not taught in the scriptures, on the contrary, the Word of God has Given you everything necessary to become a child of God, from the very begining, even while you were dead in sin and tresspass, Christ died for you, the Word asks us..

Why do the heathen rage, the scriptures ask?  

Because they know that there is nothing they  can do to make themselves right with God.  The Old Nature of christians sometimes shows itself in this way, in that they  even verbalize there disagreement with the scriptures, and meven want to take credit for grace of God,  as if they caused Him to produce it.

And so, it was on this note that you, undertook, to prove, your faith came to you in someother way other than Gods way.

Yes, sure you say, it isn't so, and that you only believe the pure word as taught by the scriptures, but so do all those others, who make these claims, they also, say, that their faith is in Jesus, and nothing else, yet when asked about this theory that somehow or other a child of God, can lose the eternal life Jesus says is given to his own by Him, because this is the will of God, for those whom God has given Him, whom He holds in His hand.

The object of the unbelief you claim a person turns to, in abandoning  faith in God, is the keeping of the law, and I know that what you mean by this is the Commandments, because it is when one breaks a Commandment that a person sins.

And at Reply 8, herein you state;

Faith merits nothing. Faith is our response to Gods Grace.

Sin, alineates a person from God, the moment one sins, not ultimately, one sin is sufficient to kill the soul, to abandon
ones faith in Him, is to disobey the first commandment, and disobedience was the sin which brought on death, thru Adam, (it is based in Unbelief) upon the whole human race

The Soul that sinneth it shall die. (Num 15:28-31) Even the sin of ignorance, is included, because the ignorant who sin, despise the word of God, and has broken His commandment.

You teach, one can sin, and continue, in fellowship with God, until "ultimately", sometime down the road, the person loses his salvation.  This is clear from you statement;


Sorry, asaph, but I am afraid, you really don't believe Jesus, is the final authority on all matters concerning faith, (this is jusdt your lip service)


You believe you are..the final authority, you prove it by what you teach, blending your words with words which the unlearned are unable to discern as contradicting the Gospel.


God Bless,

Petro

Ohhh!!, How so, how is it more special than Rom 11, both passages are describing the consequences of  unbelief, and I assume,  your presupposition that Paul was saved, lost and saved again, has something to do with Rom 11.  Thus, your previous post, where according to you Paul, fell away (lost his salvation), and then was restored. You've let you are letting your imagination get the best of you.
The object of the verses and why they were not able to be brought to repentance, is because, there is no more sacrifice for the sin of unbelief, people that who walk away, from the teaching testimony of the Holy Spirit, which is bringing men to Christ, when they walk away from it, that is it, for them.  Although written to Jews the Epistle, is written that the people of God mightknow the truth,  be edified, and understand these things.  It is not so special, that it cannot be understood, as taught by the Spirit.

He sinned openly, he must repent openly, if he belongs to Christ, God is not the author of sin, to openly flaunt sin, in Gods assembly, is to invite judgement from God, the church, wqas to put these sort of sinners out from among them, and have nothing to with them, to use 2 Cor 2:7 as definitively speaking fo the is indivudual is strechting a might wouldn't you say, especially since there is a letter of Pauls, missing that he wrote unto this church.


Cont'd...........

Asaph,  you amaze, me.....

And you don't even see that this commentary, you post agrees with Eternal Security, Barnes, whoever he is; in quoting Beza- recognizes the offender, to be a believer, a member of the Kingdom of God, which was to be delivered to the Kingdom of Satan for;

"For the destruction of the flesh - We may observe here:
(1) That this does not mean that the man was to die under the infliction of the censure, for the object was to recover him; and it is evident that, whatever he suffered as the consequence of this, he survived it, and Paul again instructed the Corinthians to admit him to their fellowship, 2Co_2:7.
(2) it was designed to punish him for licentiousness of life - often called in the Scriptures one of the sins, or works of the flesh Gal_5:19, and the design was that the punishment should follow "in the line of the offence," or be a just retribution - as punishment often does."

Yet, you claim, that anyone lving in sin, and abandoning his faith in God, as in this case Jesus, it is evident, this person, had a total diregard for the commandment of God, and you could hardly argue, he  doesn't fall into your definition of one who had lost his salvation, as you understand it,  since he did not trust in God by faith at all, evidenced by his life style, and open rebellion against the word of God.

Yet your man Barnes, says;

"That his soul might be saved; that he might be corrected, humbled, and reformed by these sufferings, and recalled to the paths of piety and virtue."

He was a believer before, he was given to be afflicted, the only thing that happens herein is he either repents, or dies in sin.

Thank God, He does not become unfaithful, because we are unfaithful, our position in Christ, is secure because it is based on His finished work on calvary, and His reserrection by the Spirit.

 We have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us   2  Cor 4:7.

I don't have problem with scripture when you post it, but I do, with your interpretation  of it, and it evident here, you need to do some homework on it..

As I said before, You entered this thread frusterated, at reply #2,  upset that there is nothing you did, nor could ever do, to gain salvation mfrom God, and it has been shown to you, how that God provided you with everyhting you need to come to Jesus by faith, even to believe is a gift from God, and have posted upwards of 20 posts, trying to shore up your theology, and then you post this little  which truns out to a case for the Eternal Security of every believer; that inspite of what is said from here  on, one thing is certain, the "excellency of the power may be of God, who knoweth them that are His, and will raise them up, in the last day, not because they did anything to deserve it, but because it pleases God to save som, that He might be glorified.

Here is the verse again;

And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.


And finally, read it carefully, inspite of many offences, His people will be saved, in the end..it doesn't matter what you teach, or even believe for that matter with regard to this subject;

He will raise every person He has given to the Son, hope to see you there..

Rom 5
16  And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.


God Bless,

Petro

asaph,

You jest.............You don't have to believe OSAS, but if you believed Jesus, you would OSAS, because Jesus says;

Jhn 10
28  ............... I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29  My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30  I and my Father are one.

Do you believe this??

Eternal means "FOREVER", and it is "FOREVER", because it is based on Jesus finished works, not your works.

1 Jhn 4
10  Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

PROPITIATION; (pro PISH ee ay shun).  Covering, atonement.  In general a, sacrifice that appeases God. The Propitiation in view here at this verse is; Christ the Saviors sacrificial death on the cross that makes divine forgiveness possible.

It is God's mercy and grace in action to put all into a right relationship with Him.

You may think, we share these truths with you because we hate you, but you are wrong.

The fact you, deny Jesus's own words, regardless of how you articulate your faith, is evidence you ultimately believe you are able to propitaite yourself into divine grace.

It is because you have a distorted sense of the what the scriptures teach..

Blessings,

Petro

you say;


This is true, because;

 the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;  (Jhn 5:26)

And we are saved by His Life, and we possess that life presently, in these earthen vessels.  

You say;  only if we remain in Christ, can we continue in this "life".  But the fact is you don't believe this at all.

And Jesus says;

Jhn 6
39  And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40  And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jesus, when praying to the Father, prayed;

Jhn 17
1. Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2  As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
(Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. (Rom 8:9))
3  And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

And, then the Apostles writes;

1 Jhn 5
12  He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
13  These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

But you believe according to the commentary of "Barnes" that a Chritian "Fornicator", living in open rebellion against the will of God, can be ex communicated from the church, while remaining a Christian, to be buffeted by Satan for a season, that his soul might not perish!  

What you fail to see, is he never lost his gift of "Eternal Life" during this experience, according to your understanding of the passage of scripture.

You actually believe in OSAS, the problem you have trouble, accepting it, and confessing it. Because you want to throw your two mites into the gift of God.

Which brings me to the point that needs to be made, you need to spend time reconciling your "birdsnest" (the tangled teaching of scripture) you carry around with you, unable to undertsnad it, so that you may teach to others who are also weak in the faith an confused.

We Christians, should all be of the same faith of Abraham, who believe Jesus words to the saving of the soul..

Sharing truth with you to strengthen your faith, in Jesus..

And may God, give you the grace to deal with this..

Love
Petro

I was tempted to respond to some of the earlier posts in this thread, but didn’t think it was worth getting into.  But Petro, yet again you have turned it nasty.  You have again done nothing more than attack a fellow Christian, calling into question their knowledge, their faith and their salvation.  This is something of a pattern for you, isn’t it?

“The more you try to explain, what you perceive scripture to teach, the more it becomes evident, you do not understand it, and reject the teaching of it.”

He rejects your Calvinist doctrines, not what Scripture teaches, since they are two very different things.  

”This reminds me of the teaching of the Catholic church, Christains cannot agree with their teaching, unless one first forces them to define words.”

I’m sure there are more than a few here who would argue the same thing about Calvinism.  Tell me, what does “all” mean and “whosoever”?  

”You believe somehow these branches, that have been burned, can be grafted back into the vine,”

First off, they haven’t been burned yet.  Your sequencing these verses incorrectly. Jesus is clearly talking about the final judgment which takes place at the end of time.  These “branches” are slated for burning – they will be burned if they remain outside of Christ.  They are not burnt yet.  As such, it may very well be possible for them to be grafted into Christ.  

”What??, You believe the Apostle Paul, was saved, forsook God, and then was reborn again of the Spirit of God?? “

I think we can take Paul at his word where he claims he was a devout and righteous Jew, who followed the law of God with all his heart.  Just as Abraham, Moses, Joshua, etc, etc did.  Were they unsaved as well?

”And then you call,  Heb 6, a special case,  failing recognize this is speaking of unbelievers,”

Unbelievers?!  What translation are you reading?  How can an unbeliever been “once enlightened,” “tasted the heavenly gift” and been a “partaker of the Holy Spirit” (vs 4)?  How is it that an unbeliever “tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come” (vs 5)?  They can’t!  These are all marks of a believer – a true believer.  They tasted heaven and the good word of God, they partook of the Spirit and its gifts – the powers of the age to come.  Look at verse 6 – “have fallen away” clearly indicates they were once unfallen, they were once saved.  Later, it says it is impossible to RENEW them to repentance.  RENEW, as in, they were once repentant and aren’t anymore.  And how is it that an unbeliever crucifies Jesus Christ twice?  You’re fooling yourself if you think this refers to unbelievers and you clearly show your own deficit of understanding of the Word.  
 
”I really thought you had a better command of the scriptures.”
Look who’s talking.  

”Your problem is;
--You can't accept Faith is gift of God  to sinners underserving of His grace. So, it naturally follows that such a superficial understanding of how you obtained yours, leads to this teaching.”

What’s that I smell?  Ahh, the sweet scent of fundamentalist judgment.  He can’t accept your Calvinist baloney because its wrong, wrong, wrong.  He doesn’t have a superficial understanding of faith – he has the understanding that has existed in the church since the times of Christ.  Why else don’t you see any of your garbage in any ancient texts?  Why doesn’t Calvinism stand up to historical scrutiny?  You dodged my question on the other thread, lets see if you can answer it here.  

”It began when God  chose you, by electing you from before the foundations of the world, and then in due time you received the hearing necessary to hear the word of God, His word was preached to you at the appponted time, in which you placed some degree trust,”

Bzzzzt, contradiction alert.  How can he have placed any degree of trust in it if he was totally depraved?  You were very explicit in how we are saved, and yet you state here that he put trust in it.  How is that possible if we are completely incapable of responding in any way unless the Spirit irresistibly forces us to do so?

”You may believe, that perhaps, there was a spark of life in your dead spiritual condition (but it won't change the fact there wasn't, any life in you, otherwise, it would not be referred to as the New Birth),”

Is a baby dead before it is born?  Clearly not.  You miss the meaning of the metaphor.
 
”Because they know that there is nothing they  can do to make themselves right with God.”

Bzzzt, contradiction alert.  If the spiritually dead understand nothing of God and do not, in fact, wish to please him in any way, they would not be frustrated by their inability to do so.  And if they recognized that they are not right with God, then they cannot be totally depraved, can they?  Incapable of effecting their own salvation, but not in utter bondage to sin, since they clearly recognize God as good and themselves as missing the mark.  

“The Old Nature of christians sometimes shows itself in this way, in that they  even verbalize there disagreement with the scriptures, and meven want to take credit for grace of God,  as if they caused Him to produce it.”
A fundamental misreading of their theology.  No non-Calvinist theologian has ever taught or thought they forced God to produce grace.  You caricature their thinking, but only reveal your own ignorance on the matter.

”Sorry, asaph, but I am afraid, you really don't believe Jesus, is the final authority on all matters concerning faith, (this is jusdt your lip service)”

Sorry, Petro, but I’m afraid you really don’t believe Jesus or his word is the final authority on all matters concerning faith, this is just your lip service.  You clearly believe that Calvinist doctrine overrides scripture.  It is your final authority, not the Lord, not the Word.

pnotc,

You really should be studying for your orthodoxy exam, instead of spending time arguing, points, which you don't believe in anyhow, whats the point??

The Apostle Paul, was unsaved, while he did the things he did, in ignorance.

You can read his own testimony in the book of Acts.


Petro

Petro-

I've noticed an "advancing towards the rear" in your postsings lately.  When I've pointed out the failings in your arguments and the holes in your logic, or your misreading of scripture (Hebrews 6 being only the latest debacle), you simply post an insult and do not answer my posts.  And I'm not sure what you think I do or don't believe, but I assure you, it is definitely no concern of yours.  So how about you respond - just to the portion on Hebrews 6?  Show me how the refers to non-believers.  

John 10

 1.  "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
 2.  But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
 3.  To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
 4.  And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
 5.  And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
 6.  This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.
 7.  Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
 8.  All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
 9.  I am the door: by me if ANY man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
 10.  The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
 11.  I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
 12.  But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
 13.  The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.
 14.  I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
 15.  As the Father knoweth me, even so I know the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
 16. And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd."

 Acts 14:27.  And when they were come, and had gathered the church together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles.

The responses I have been getting from you Petro are so rediculous that I decided to not answer any further. This is not to say I do not pray for you.  
I appreciate the support from my brothers.

asaph

asaph,

Fair enough, you can count on my prayers for you.

I trust you don't think the scriptures I have shared with you to be ridiculous..

Blessings,

Petro

Still no response to my post, eh Petro?

*********
Hi for the questionnaire! :) (John here)
Surely you know that you are right on with this post! :) The Lord tries to enter many ways. (try Jude 22-23) Yet, NEVER FORCEFULLY! That opening of the MINDS door is OUR part, TOTAL SUBMISSION! huh? Matt. 28:20

Notice Saul in Acts 9? Christ is 'knocking' at his door, & knocking so hard that down he went! (poor ignorant up till now chap) Yet, now notice Saul's remark? "WHO ART THOU LORD ... WHAT WILL THOU [HAVE ME TO DO?] ... (and Christ TOLD him!) AND IT SHALL BE TOLD THEE WHAT THOU [**MUST DO]."

And what do these posters say?  BLIND?? See John 9:39-41!

---John

You are correct Asaph, Paul is talking to brethren in Christ, not the unsaved or rather those outside the body.

Romans 1:1.  Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
 2.  which he promised afore through his prophets in the holy scriptures,
 3.  concerning his Son, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh,
 4.  who was declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead; even Jesus Christ our Lord,
 5.  through whom we received grace and apostleship, unto obedience of faith among all the nations, for his name's sake;
 6.  among whom are ye also called to be Jesus Christ's:
 7.  To all that are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
 8.  First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is proclaimed throughout the whole world.

Paul's words at the beginning of his letter to the church at Rome reveal to whom he is addressing his words.
It is not the unsaved!
 

Doing what God wants us to do is what it is all about.

Many seem to believe nothing must be done by an individual because God will choose them and send the Holy Spirit into them to do it all for them. What is the point. Why Jesus if this is so?

Well, God gives the gift of the Holy Spirit to those who obey Him.




 Acts 2:38.  And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
 39.  For to you is the promise, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call unto him.
 40.  And with many other words he testified, and exhorted them, saying, Save yourselves from this crooked generation.
 41.  They then that received his word were baptized: and there were added unto them in that day about three thousand souls.
 42.  And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' teaching and fellowship, in the breaking of bread and the prayers

Christ paid the price for the gift, but man has to reach out and accept the gift.
Notice when they asked, "what they must do?," Peter did not say God and the Holy Ghost must choose you. He told them God's word and what God expected them to do in accordance with His will. He said, Repent "ye", "you" be baptized, for to "you" and "yours", "they" received his word, "they" continued steadfast. It is all based on something "they" do as God wills.

pnotc,

So, if thats the case why do you seek the truth, from the rear.


The "failings" you refer to are your own inablities,  to perceive the truth as taught in the word, focusing your own preconceieved  notions on what is shared,  to justify your erroneous understanding of the scriptures.

I suggest, that perhaps it is you, who are unable to see the true teaching of Hebrew 6.

I have posted the what, where, whens and, whys of  Heb 6:4-6;

Here it is in,your NIV;

4  It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted  he heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit,
5  who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age,
6  if they shall fall away, to be bropught back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

I don't plan to spend waste my time with you on this passage, since I have posted quite a bit, and it can be  lengthy and tedious, and thge only reason why you ask is to try and disprove it.

This is not a difficult passage of scripture to understand, unless one comes from the camp you represent.

You can't see it, because your faith in the word of God, is lacking, the faith necessary to understand the mystery of the Gospel.


Well your right, I don't care what you think, or believe.   From what you have shared already it is evident you don't belive the teaching of the 2d commandment, for sure...and anyone who claims to believe God, but willingly rejects the truth of the commandment, shows what god he follows..


If I thought sharing the truths of Heb 6 with you, would help you, I would.

The problem is, even if I did,.... you would reject it, and,  it wouldn't convince you  that, the 2d commandment, includes praying to dead saints as idolatry.  Whats the point??

It is no secret why, you cannot see it.

Later,  

Petro

To understand this passage, ,I suppose you must answer the questions.

Why is the door locked to Christs church in this passage of scripture??

Jesus, hear is not speaking to unbelievers??  or is He??

Maybe you think, it isn't...necessary to ask questions..

Petro

***********
Petro,
CHRIST IS SPEAKING TO [[YOU!]] Rom. 8:14 & Acts 5:32 & John 16:13.

Unity in Christ??? This sure sounds to me like the 'Confused' ones building the Tower of BABBLING!
--John

My questions or the ones below that are yours?   ???

I'll try answering yours, although I am not sure I understand your post.

Does it say that? It is addressed to the church of the Laodiceans.

 Revelation 3:14.  And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; these things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
 15.  I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
 16.  So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
 17.  Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
 18.  I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
 19.  As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
 20.  Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
 21.  To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
 22.  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.


The verse says "any man", but the message is directed to the church of the Laodiceans. Does this mean any man of that congregation? It seems a general proclamation from the Lord about what He will do when any man, hears His voice, (knock)
and any man opens.
The point being that Christ does the knocking and voicing, man does the hearing and opening so He can come in.




I'm in the dark here with your last sentence and don't understand it.


In His Love,
Ollie

I agree with Ollie, Petro's last post really doesn't make sense.  

"Why is the door locked to Christs church in this passage of scripture??"

The verse does not say the door is locked.  It simply says it is closed.  The word that means "open" is the same word that one would use to say "open your mouth" - there is no implication of a lock or barrier preventing the door from being opened.  It does not say "if anyone unlocks his door."  Nor is it locked to Christ's church - whatever thats supposed to mean.  The individual can respond to the free gift of grace - Jesus knocking at the door, by accepting it, ie, opening the door to Christ.  I guess "any" doesn't mean "any" here, just like "all" doesn't mean "all", does it Petro?

"Jesus, hear is not speaking to unbelievers??  or is He??"

He's speaking to unbelievers.  Why the question marks?

Hi, John here:
The last denomination is illustrated by a True Virgin denomination. (Only in Doctrine) They are not told that they are wrong in what they.. "thou sayest I am rich and increased in with goods" as the Word puts it. Compare Matt. 23:3 & verse 15. ???

Now, for [me] to understand this, it can be found in past history God states! But only twice. Rev. 2:5 tells of the CHURCH or candelstick being removed unless certain condiions ARE met.

Now, we read that Laodicea WAS spewed OUT! (cut off) There were two churches with pure doctrines on the scene in Christs day. (one denomination with a Remnant to be)  His own REJECTED Him, not the doctrines. Same as Laodicea. All had 'some' love at the start. Christ REQUIRES FIRST PLACE!

Rev. 12:17 tells of both history repeats from PURE VIRGIN teachings. With only a REMNANT leaving & being the new church. Read Rev. 3:10 & you will see the ones from verse seven (called Philadelphians) who were kept from the 666 (70 AD counter/part) thing of testing for the world. But the Laodicea denomination was tested before 666. This is where Christ's new remnant (or off-shoot) church came from & where the Philadelphians came from. THE REMNANT!

Eccl. 1:9-10 & Eccl. 3:15 give Truth to this also! The SHAKING or Falling away does the same thing! Being 'IN CHRIST' must have the TOTAL MATURE LOVE of that servant. It was created & then was re/created, but that is just the starting point of the Christian experience. True love must MATURE without emotion being the driving force. True MATURE LOVE IS A DIVINE PRINCIPLE!
(2 Cor. 3:3 EPISTLE OF CHRIST)

Matt. 25 gives a two/fold story of both histories of Christ's coming the first time & His coming the second time. (old & new Testament) One of the greatest deceptions of today is understanding Matt. 23:38's DESOLATE HOUSE. They were DESOLATE OF WHOM? (Both times)

Israel is SPIRITUAL, not physical. Rom. 2:28-29. Remember that Laodicea IS SPEWED OUT AS SICKENING, BY CHRIST. And in Matt. 25 we see an illustration of heaven in verse 1.

All were SLEEPING as Israel of old & Laodicea were. (are)
O'yes, ALL ARE VIRGINS IN DOCTRINE! (So was heaven) A cry came! MIDNIGHT CRY, inside the Virgin DENOMINATION. CHRIST WAS OUTSIDE, and the MIDNIGHT CRY CAME FROM OUTSIDE! (who gave it?-Christ & John the Baptist for starters. remember that he even had converts OUTSIDE)

Then Christ called the 12 they went out to meet Him! Read Matt. 10:5-38 for the MIDNIGHT CRY to Israel & Laodicea! Verse 23 is important! (for He was already there speaking at this time)

OK: the Jewish denomination were [cut off] as His church. She still had new born babes inside her that wuld be given to until 70AD's slaughter to COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE. Some 36 latter Christ told them to pray that your flight be not on the Sabbath Day or in the winter!! ;).

And yes, both Laodicea & Israel of old HAVE A CLOSED DOOR in Matt. 25! (both became MATURE one way or the other!) When one reads of Dan. speaking of the DESOLATION THAT MAKETH DESOLATE? They need to see that the Word include both the Midnight Cry & the Loud Cry of 70AD slaughter. (it is there to see. It has a counter/part of 666 testing)

ALSO: Ask yourself who took over the leadership of Israel (Laodicea) when Christ was put out? (See Rev. 3:9) And what was satan's primary goal using this Virgin denomination in doctrine only!! Read Rev. 12:17 again s-o-w- -l-y! And again Matt. 10:23!

Now in CLOSING, ASK & ANSWER YOURSELF
the question of who LEFT WHOM? Who stayed put in Israel day as a denomination? And in Laodicea's day, who stayed put?
S-L-O-W-L-y now, [WHO FELL AWAY??] The ones who left, or the ones who stayed put?? Again: Why is there a Rev. 18:4? This is the Worlds MIDNIGHT CRY!

So bottom line: Check Israel of old, & YOU WILL READ Laodicea of today! What is New God asks? NOTHING!!

---John


 

This message is addressed to the angel of the church of Laodecia. (vs 14)
What point are you trying to make herein??


The next point which should be evident to you is that this verse speaks to any man who hears His voice, this qualified by verse 22,

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

The unsaved have ears but can't hear, unless the Spirit gives them hearing, the saved have hearing to hear;  

The second point herein is that He comes in to the man (not all men in this church) that hears, not necessarily the church, but each individual who hears his voice and opens the door, He comes in to have sup with him, and He with that person.


The point has been made, Jesus speaks to "any man" but as has been said; the unsaved cannot hear, unless hearing is given to them.





I understand......


God Bless ,

Petro

How did the unsaved in Acts 2 have the ability to hear and respond to Peter's preaching?
They heard and were pricked in their hearts by this word and asked what shall they DO and Peter told them, "Repent and be baptized", it is something they must DO. Is it not?
Peter says nothing about the Holy Spirit in them doing it. The word of God has called them to do what the word of God wills. He does say if they do it they will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is given to those who obey God! One  has to do first before getting. Then one has to continue doing!
The do verses seem to get ignored by the ones who use the "by faith only" verses.

Acts 2:37 reveals that the unsaved hear and respond to The word of God. The gift of the Spirit is not theirs yet.

 Acts 2:37.  Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall WE do?

 38.  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

(removed)

were pricked in their heart[/b], and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall WE do?

 38.  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


John here: Quoting 1/2 Gospel Promises are NO Gospel! Where ARE the EVERLASTING COVENANT CONDITIONS??? That is the 'd'evils way of doctrinizing his captives, see Matt. 4:6 for a almost perfectly QUOTED PROMISE from Psalms 91:11! And the Master went back into ALL SCRIPTURE to Deut. 6:16 to [PROVE *HIS TRUTH!].  

ALL SCRIPTURE IS NEEDED!! 2 Tim. 3:16
Where is the Master's Matt. 28:20 verse seen in just a part of His Gospel?? "COMMAND THEM TO OBSERVE ALL THINGS WHATSOEVER I HAVE COMMANDED YOU."

And it is not possible to be saved without HAVING the Holy Spirit!! John 3:3 And HIS POSSESSION of [us] is CONDITIONAL on OUR TOTAL SURRENDER TO CHRIST-- HIS LETTER or 'EPISTLE'... COMMANDMENTS of 2 Cor. 3:3 ARE
HIS VERY WILL FOR US!

See Acts 9:6 "LORD WHAT WILL THOU HAVE ME TO DO???" (NOTHING ???, JUST ONE THING?? REMEMBER THAT SAUL (PAUL) HAD THE [COMPLETE PACKAGE] OF 'SEED' SOWN! HE EVEN WITTNESSED STEVENS [WITTNESS] AT DEATH. READ IT in Acts 7! (he too was kicking against the PRICTS of the Holy Ghost!)  

And then one can see that [ALL] EVERLASTING GOSPEL (Rev. 14:6)  can [NEVER] VOID OUT ACTS 5:32!! To be BORN AGAIN WILL NEVER, NEVER TAKE PLACE, UNTIL THE STUBBORN 'WILL' IS SURRENDERED (*ALL OF IT) TO THE HOLY GHOST! (CHRIST'S REPRESENTATIVE!)

Then & only then will the person answer, and [want to] answer RIGHTLY to the Master's question or [statement] that He tells us the BOTTOM line is, "IF YE LOVE ME, KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS". (and what commandments are these? see Rev. 12:17-Ex. 31:18 & James 2:8-12)

---John

Hi John,

Here is more of the Lord's good news.

Enjoy it slowly and let it wash over you and bring you comfort in the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 15

 1.  Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
 2.  By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
 3.  For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
 4.  And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
 5.  And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
 6.  After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
 7.  After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
 8.  And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
 9.  For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
 10.  But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
 11.  Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.
 12.  Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
 13.  But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
 14.  And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
 15.  Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
 16.  For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
 17.  And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
 18.  Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
 19.  If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
 20.  But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
 21.  For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
 22.  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
 23.  But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
 24.  Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
 25.  For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
 26.  The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
 27.  For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
 28.  And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
 29.  Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
 30.  And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?
 31.  I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
 32.  If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.
 33.  Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.
 34.  Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.
 35.  But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
 36.  Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
 37.  And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
 38.  But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
 39.  All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
 40.  There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
 41.  There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
 42.  So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
 43.  It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
 44.  It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
 45.  And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
 46.  Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
 47.  The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
 48.  As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
 49.  And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
 50.  Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
 51.  Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
 52.  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
 53.  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
 54.  So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
 55.  O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
 56.  The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
 57.  But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
 58.  Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.


Have a very good day,
In the love of Christ,
Ollie

Hi, John,

You omitted the sentence that explains why I posted what I posted. You distort my words through omission and make people believe I am giving 1/2 the gospel. I am not indoctrinizing anything for the devil, but rather demonstrating through God's word that the lost can hear His word, If they cannot what is the point for Jesus Christ!? The gospel of Christ is preached for and to the lost, not for the found. It calls the lost to Jesus Christ. The unlost have been called already. The unlost are to go beyond the milk and teach and or preach.

Here is my ommitted sentence that goes before the other words in my post. Thanks again.

Acts 2:37 reveals that the unsaved hear and respond to The word of God. The gift of the Spirit is not theirs yet.

You also omitted the important part about hearing in Acts 37.
Here it is again.
 Acts 2:37.  Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?


Take care.
Ollie

Post-Script. I added a paragraph to the beginning of the post you quote. You may not have seen it.


Let God's word wash over you as you abide in it and are cleansed by it.
Ollie

 Matthew 7:24.  Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
 25.  And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
 26.  [/b]And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:[/b]
 27.  And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
 

Hi Ollie. (John here)
About True Gospel? I am sure that we must dis/agree much. That does not mean that one can read our minds. Surely you can be assured that, that is my belief anyway. One is accountable for the KNOWLEDGE that God gives & that they OBEY! (you or me! See Hosea 4:6 & Luke 12:47-48)

And about you correcting my remarks?? That to is OK by me if what was said is wrong. Surely you do not believe that a person can be saved by claiming one bible promise? I had the thinking that your posts kind of agreed with the Word on that subject?

Just a remark for you to 'please' remember :). When something is printed by me, rarely do I print [anything] for just one poster individually. If I do, perhaps the one will know it?? I do not remember anything printed addressed to you personally? Even the 'closet' dwellers post by me, are the 'most' of many. (a 'alias' group)

And the thought of 1/2 Gospel? Most here belive in PROMISED SALVATION [WITHOUT ANY CONDITIONS] it seems? One bird even has a thread on it?  If you were included with these ones, it was not by name! This doctrine is OPENLY evil beyond means! It VIOLATES Rev. 14:6 & Heb. 13:20's EVERLASTING GOSPEL & COVENANT! :'( :'( (did you catch the word doctrine?)

In the Master quickly FINISHED work for the HOUSE OF GOD FIRST, (1 Peter 4:17 & Lev. 16:14)
       John

Ollie,

To answer your questions, which you pose;


You know this because we have given you the answer to this question, time and time again.

Eph 2
8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9  Not of works, lest any man should boast.
The gift of Faith is given by God's grace and mercy,  this is done when one believes His Word (God's word), which Jesus spoke in His name; and Faith, when placed on the finished works of Jesus, counted for our righteouness, (Rom4:5-8)

 
Well they didn't prick their own hearts, did they??  

Gods word produced their reaction to recognize they were outside the promises of God.  Perhaps he was using the opportunity to draw them to Christ, Huh..do you believe this might have been possible..

Thus their response to the truth of what they heard.  So would you believe, they turned to Peter (who had been preaching the gosple to them), and asked what must we do, Peters response was "Repent, and be baptised", Jesus said;

 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Mk16:16)

Believing Gods word and responding to Gods commandment "To Repent", is essential to receiving and comming to Faith in Jesus.


Absolutely, We also shared with you that, God who knows mens hearts, gives repentance to them that, repent sincerely, John said

"Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance,"(Lk 3:8),
so it is NOT just mouthing words, there has to be a sincere contrite broken heart, when one comes to the Throne of Grace,

So, it is not, an outward seeking of repentance carefully with tears as Esau did, but a real burning inward desire to get right with God.

We as gentiles, were once, outside the promises of God once, we were aliens from the commonwealthof Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: however in Christ God has granted all gentiles repentance unto life(Eph 2:12), through

His name Israel has been given repnetancem (Acts 5:31)

2 Tim 2
24  And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
25  In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
26  And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.


Your statement is loaded, because you still haven't submitted to the word.



No argument with you here.  The Word of God expresses Gods will, that is for sure, the promises of God thru the same Word will bring it fruition to them that are called by God.

 
Correct, Acts 5:32, Please note I gave you verse 31, above.  

Thats right, those who are granted repentance are given the Holy Spirit, because they seek to obey the commandment to repent.



You have made the statement, you believe only the scriptures, here is the test to see, if this is true;

Do you believe, Eph 1:5and 11??  

Or do you believe like many others that those whom God, has predestinated, will not be adopted as children by Jesus Christ.

How about;  Jhn 1:12-13,.......... Do you believe these verse.  

I don't know, why I ask you this, I know you don't believe these..I suppose I ask you, so that perhaps you might consider, IF what you really believe matches up with scripture...

 

Do what??   If you are refferring to keep the law. instead of preaching the word, the answer to this is found in the scriptures.

The doing, should be preaching and teaching the unsearchable riches of Christ, to all creatures


This is because you see, the pricking of the heart as coming from within themselves, we know it is Gods Spirit working in them, drawing them, notice the word heard, only Gods Spirit can give hearing to them that cannot hear, and sight to the blind,

Note, what Isaih said;

Isa 6
8  Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.
9  And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
10  Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

Somehow in your preverted sort of way of teaching the word according to Ollie, you would claim that a man is able to produce the hearing to hear and the sight to see, and the understanding to perceive with the heart  and convert themselves.  This is why the doing never ends for you, this is the work, and it must continue, because to stop, would end the gift of salvation, this sounds like another gosple.


This is that moment of truth, when the Spirit of God brings everyone who is saved to enlightenment throught the foolishness of preaching,  the gosple of the Grace of God, that person is no longer in darkness concerning the way of salvation, and there,  is no longer any excuses,

To not repent from the sin of living the life of blasphemy (that is to say, rejecting the teaching of the Holy Spirit of God) is to chose eternal death.  This is why Heb 6:4-6,  makes it perfectly clear that these that are brought to this point by the Grace of God, and turn away from the gift of God, can never be brought back to this place again, because they have done despite to the Spirit of Grace. (Heb 10:29)

The conclusion is that God equips every person he saves with everything he needs to come to God to be saved, left to himself, he would never make an attempt of his own free will,  to do so, because he doesn't possess 'free will', he is in bondage to sin and the

"god of this world of this world  who hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them." (2 Cor 4:4)

PS- Please don't revisit Rev 3:20, or Rev 14:12, again, you have been quoting these verse, over and over, it is hard to understand how you can build an entire doctrine around two misquoted verses, however if you have any others post them, I'd be interestsed in seeing them also..

God Bless

Petro

  Asaph: Jesus statement concerning "I stand at the door..."
was not made to unbelievers, but to one of the churches
made up to believers who were alive to hear and obey the Lord.The verse which is the pertinent verse concerning unbelievers in Acts where--now grasp this firmly--the Lord "opened" the heart of Lydia, the seller of purple so that she would believe the gospel. Another verse in Acts which relates that same truth is when the scripture notes that "As many as were ordained unto eternal life believed." Please don't get too tangled up with doctrinal questions which vex you. Devote your time to the consideration of Christ because, friend, in Him are hidden "all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge." Always remember that Jesus Christ is the express image of the only true God. As Jesus said,
"He that has seen me has seen the Father." In Him alone can rest for the soul and confidence be found. Please have a good day.

 Matthew 7:24.  Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
 25.  And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
 26.  And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
 27.  And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.


 Matthew 13:18.  Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
 19.  When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
 20.  But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
 21.  Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
 22.  He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
 23.  But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

The lost hear the word of God and are called to God through Christ by it.
 Romans10:13.  For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
 14.  How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

13.  But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
 14.  Whereunto he called you,(the members of the Thessalonian church), by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
 

We do not know if the seven churches refered to in Revelation heard or not. Is there a record of their adhering to the words of Christ and in obedience overcoming? We only know of their shortcomings and what would be if they overcame them and some of what would be if they did not overcome them.