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Acts 14:19.  "And there came thither certain Jews from Antioch and Iconium, who persuaded the people, and, having stoned Paul, drew him out of the city, supposing he had been dead.
20.  Howbeit, as the disciples stood round about him, he rose up, and came into the city: and the next day he departed with Barnabas to Derbe.
21.  And when they had preached the gospel to that city, and had taught many, they returned again to Lystra, and to Iconium, and Antioch,
22.  Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God."

If one is "once saved always saved" and cannot fall fom grace, Then why this exhortation from Paul and Barnabas to the disciples.

Grace is a gift from God accepted and received from God in/through faith in His Son. If one does not continue in the faith does one keep the gift? Has one fallen?

Much tribulation is also to be expected as a Christian. The exortation comes about as an encouragement to not weaken under the tribulations and continue in the faith. Thus perhaps revealing that one can leave the faith if one weakens under pressure of life"s trials and discontinues in the faith. Thereby giving up the receptor that gives the unmerited favor of God.

ollie

Don't know if you're asking a question or just making a statement.

I believe one can lose their salvation.  I have 2 typed pages of verses from the bible supporting this belief.  Don't know where it is at the moment.  I'll look for it.  The proponents for "once saved, always saved" have verses that "prove" their stance, also.  I don't think they equate "falling from grace", and losing salvation as one and the same, but I'm not really sure.  We are being saved, daily.  We are to work out our salvation.  Well, if we don't work it out, then what?  Are we still saved?  I think not!

Whoops---------I can see where my statement above could be taken out of context.  Please don't.  I know we're saved by grace and that it's unmerited.  There isn't anything we can do to save ourselves.  God gives us the grace to "work it out", however, we can choose not to and suffer the consequence of loss.  Jesus Christ died so that we could be saved.  Being saved isn't just saying one accepts Jesus, and then doing what one wills.  Being saved enables us, by grace, to do the will of the Father.  Being saved is living the life------walking the talk.  Yes, we can fall, and we all do, but we have a merciful God who forgives us when we repent.  If we don't repent, then we can't enter heaven as sinners, therefore, we've lost our salvation, IMO.

 

 

 

Romans 11:29  For the gifts and calling of God are without repentence.

Matthew Henry's Commentary says this about Romans 11:29:
We never find God repenting that He had given a man grace, or effectually called him; those gifts and callings are without repentence.

Strongs---irrevocable - ametameltos from 1 (as a neg. pref.) and 3338 (not 3341)
not repented of:---irrevocable(1), without regret(1)

It appears Romans 11:29 is speaking about God and not us.

Respectfully,
cris

If salvation can be lost, then one does not claim "salvation" - they can only claim "probation."

Since I have put my FAITH and trust in the Cross work (death, burial and resurrection) of Christ, ALL my sins, past, present, and future, have already been paid for, and have been "...sealed by the holy Spirit of promise" (Eph.1:13). Would find it hard to believe that satan has the power to break that seal. My God is stronger then satan.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord.

Eph 1:3-5

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
KJV
2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
KJV

Ps 3:8

8 Salvation belongeth unto the LORD: thy blessing is upon thy people. Selah.
KJV

If i had to stand before God on my own i would not be worthy my salvation is only because of HIM  His blood His death His will Salvation belongs to the LORD not to me. Praise His holy Name


Heb 10:14

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
KJV

Heb 10:10

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
KJV

Gal 6:14

14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
KJV

Phil 1:6

6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
KJV

and I reckon i'll add my two cents in to this one as well.

Keep in mind Ephesians 1:13 as well. We've been sealed with the Holy Spirit, saying that we are God's children. So how is it then, we can break the seal of the Holy Spirit. That is like saying we are more powerful than God Himself. and that simply is not true...if you guys would like, I can post my letter on Eternal Security that i composed a few years ago if you'd like. I reckon i may try to do it now just to maybe help out a bit. God Bless

Joshua

Eternal Security

As I read and go through my teenage years and grow in my Christian walk, one topic continues to arise and it’s the Doctrine of Eternal Security. A few months ago, a Christian I was speaking to commented on the subject of Eternal Security and commented that one can in fact lose their Salvation, but one can get it back. I must say that I disagree with this statement. Since then, I have studied and searched the New Testament for Scriptures and references supporting this statement and I have only found 2. One pertaining to the Unforgivable Sin (Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit) and a hypothetical situation found in Hebrews 6:4-6.

Heb 6:4  For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5  And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6  If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

The unforgivable sin mentioned above is talking about the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit of God spoken of in Matthew 12:31 and 32

Mat 12:31  Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
 
Mat 12:32  And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

But any Born-Again Christian who truly Loves Christ and has Him at the center of His life should not even think of blasphemy because Jesus Christ through Paul the Apostle commands us to put off all blasphemy and filthy communication from our mouths and if we have Christ first and foremost in our lives, and follow that command, then we shouldn’t’ worry about blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. If a Christian blasphemies against the Holy Spirit, then one has to question whether or not they were truly Born-Again, because as Christians we love Christ as He first loved us. Col 3:8  But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.  Also Jesus Christ, Himself taught that we should have no evil communication come from us!

Mat 5:34-37
(34)  But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
(35)  Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
(36)  Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
(37)  But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

Continued....

Throughout Scripture it is taught that we shall have everlasting Life and Eternal Life if we are Born-Again. Note that Everlasting and Eternal mean the same thing. Strong’s Definition of Eternal and Everlasting are the same:

G166
αἰώνιος     (Greek)
aio¯nios
ahee-o'-nee-os    (Eternal)
From G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

H5769
עלם    עולם(Hebrew)
‛o^la^m  ‛o^la^m
o-lawm', o-lawm'    (Everlasting)
From H5956; properly concealed, that is, the vanishing point; generally time out of mind (past or future), that is, (practically) eternity; frequentative adverbially (especially with prepositional prefix) always: - always (-s), ancient (time), any more, continuance, eternal, (for, [n-]) ever (-lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), perpetual, at any time, (beginning of the) world (+ without end). Compare H5331, H5703.



 But before I get to far along, one has to first examine exactly what Salvation is.  Salvation is the most common Biblical expression used to identify the subjective change in people. When by faith they have received the benefit of Christ’s death and resurrection. Yet, when Christ suffered on the Cross and took the sins of the world upon Himself at the one brief moment in time, the Blood that He shed was innocent so that it could be applied to our sins to wash us white as snow. The application of Blood was used by the Israelites in the Old Testament and in the early part of the New Testament because the Priests would use the blood of innocent animals to cleanse the Temple when it was still in use. That is another subject and I wish to go no further into it. The Bible clearly teaches what the Blood does:

Heb 9:26  For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Heb 9:27  And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Heb 9:28  So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

1Pe 2:21  For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

1Pe 2:24  Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, which we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Eph 1:7  In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Joh 1:29  The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.


When Christ was on the Cross, He had all the sins of the world placed upon Him at once. Notice that in Mark 15:34 and Matthew 26:46, Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God Almighty for the first time in His life called out to God the Father as God, not Father.

Mar 15:34  And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Mat 27:46  And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

 Instead of Father, He called out to God saying “My God, My God” because in the instant of time He was fully man and had all the sins of the world;  past, present, and future. Also, for the first time in Christ’s life and Ministry, He experienced the agony of separation from God the Father because God the Father hides His face from sin simply because He hates sin and could not bear to see His Son suffer like that. Through Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross, we are given the perfect picture and ultimate symbol of God’s Grace. Ephesians 2:8-9 put it this way:

Eph 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9  Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Note that the last part of verse 8 states “it is the gift of God”!
That’s what salvation is: A gift from God given by His Grace. A couple of verses earlier on in the chapter it’s stated in verse 5 like this:

Eph 2:5  Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

Note that the last part of that verse states “By grace are ye saved” That’s the thing. The Bible clearly teaches that it is only by God’s grace that we are saved! No one can earn this grace by works. It’s undeserved. Romans re-iterates that Grace and Works is completely different and do not go hand in hand with each other.

 Rom 11:6  And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Even while Christ was alive, He Himself taught that one can be saved through Him. Before the Lord was crucified, Jesus clearly taught that whosoever would believe on Him would be saved. 2 such instances, both in John, clearly teach that Salvation is eternal. John 3:15 – 18 show that those who believe on Him won’t perish, but have everlasting (forever and ever) life.

Joh 3:15  That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17  For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Joh 3:18  He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36 also speaks of this eternal life in Jesus Christ:

Joh 3:36  He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Once again, everlasting life and eternal life are forever. Which means continuous. Jesus, Himself, called Himself the Good shepherd and said in John 10: 27, 28:

Joh 10:27  My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28  And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh 10:29  My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

But wait, if we’re Christ’s sheep and we know His voice and follow him and He gives us eternal life and it says that any and no man shall be able to pluck us out of His or His Father’s hand, then how is it we lose our salvation? If we can lose our salvation then we havn’t eternal life, and we can be plucked out of Christ’s hand. Once again, a direct contradiction to Scripture.

Salvation can be lost only by blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, but as said earlier, if a so-called “Christian” would stoop so low as to blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, one would have to question whether they were saved to begin with. But wait! The Bible says that we are sealed with the Holy Spirit forever when we’re born again. If we can lose our salvation, then that says that the Holy Spirit will not keep it’s word and therefore call God a liar. Ephesians 1:13, John 14:6, Titus 1:2, Numbers 23:19 show us that God is true to His Word and cannot lie! Malachi 3:6 also tells us the Lord doesn’t change so His Word lasts forever and ever and He cannot start to lie for He is the same as yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

Continued....

Joh 14:16  And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Eph 1:13  In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Tit 1:2  In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Num 23:19  God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

Mal 3:6  For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Now onto another part of this Doctrine. When one becomes born-again, the Bible teaches that Christ begins a new work in us to purify us and make us acceptable in the eyes of God the Father. If that were not so then it would be a direct contradiction to Philippians 1:6 which says this:
 
Phi 1:6  Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

If we could lose our salvation, then we’d have  to do something to earn it back, but what happens during that time period? Christ stops doing His work in us? No, when we Christians backslide, we are still saved because Christ promises to continue the work He started in us the moment we were saved, we just lose our rewards, not our salvation.

Now onto the subject of being Born-Again:

When we become born-again we become Sons of God (God’s Children).

Gal 4:5  To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Gal 4:6  And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Gal 4:7  Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

Eph 1:5  Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Also, when we’re Born-Again we’re adopted by God as His Sons and Daughters and we then become Heirs to His inheritance which is Heaven. Hebrews and Ephesians put it this way:

Heb 12:28  Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

Eph 1:11  In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Eph 1:14  Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Eph 1:18  The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

When a Christian is Born-Again as shown, we become Adopted Children of God and Heirs to the Inheritance He has for us. So, if we could lose our salvation entirely, then we become un-adopted because we have lost the gift that God’s given us. We couldn’t be His Sons any more. That would make God out to seem like He can’t make up His mind and that He changes His mind and says “Oh I’m sorry, but I have to un-adopt you, but I’ll re-adopt you when you gain your salvation back.” That puts conditions on God’s Gift right there and says that when you gain your salvation back, you can be re-adopted, but that states that God cannot make up His mind and denies that God is a Just and True Judge. Once again, God cannot change, plus all throughout the Old Testament and the New Testament God is True to His Word. That assurance alone should tell us “Hey! You have eternal salvation through my Son! I’m not going to back out on my Word now!” Yet there are some who wish to disagree with that statement. The Bible clearly teaches in 1 Peter 1:18, 19, and Colossians 1:14 that through Jesus’ Blood we have redemption and salvation through Jesus Christ Himself is eternal.

1Pe 1:18  Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
1Pe 1:19  But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
Col 1:14  In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

All clearly teach that we have forgiveness through the Blood that was shed on Calvary for our sins, but no where does it say that we lose our salvation. The Bible is full of explanations on how to be saved and who saves you. So, if we could lose our salvation entirely and so easily, wouldn’t’ there be an explanation showing us or warning us that “Hey, this is how you can lose your salvation entirely. Beware!” Salvation is eternal, but the believer can backslide, but can re-establish the relationship with Christ. One can push Christ away, but once one has accepted Christ, He said “I shall never leave you, nor forsake you.” If we lose our salvation, then we supposedly lose Christ and that can’t happen because it’s through Christ we have eternal life and He dwells in us. As said earlier, Salvation is the Gift of God. A gift is something freely given, but if conditions are put on it, it becomes a trade and is no longer a gift. If we say that salvation can be lost then we are stating that Christ’s Blood did not cover all the sins of the world and Jesus, doesn’t give eternal life. A direct contradiction of Romans 6:23:

 Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

See the Gift of God is Eternal life and salvation through Jesus Christ our Lord, to say that one can lose it says that Christ died in vain. Which He didn’t I may add.

In Closing I think it’s safe to say that once one has accepted Christ as their Lord and Savior, they are saved for eternity. That is what I have found Scripture says about a Believer having eternal salvation. I have relayed my view on the subject and shown what Scripture says about it. I hope I have not been to exhaustive or boring. Please do forgive me if It seems that way. I have written this because I feel strongly in my Spirit that the view on Eternal Security is both Scripturally accurate and one of God’s important truths shown in His Word. Thank you for reading this and God Bless.


Keep in mind this was written two years ago, I plan to add to this and draw in some quotes and illustrations that i've learned over the past two years...however I have not had time, so please bear with me. Don't bring out the arrows and start shooting...lol God Bless

Joshua

I believe in eternal security but I have been dealing with this issue lately, especially this set of verses. If it doesn't mean that salvation can be lost, then what does it mean?

It is said that it is a hypothetical situation. How do you arrive at that conclusion? Please elaborate.

Brothers and Sisters,

AMEN!!!!!!!

I love this thread and have made copies for additional Bible study.

It makes me very happy to read about Eternal Security. I believe firmly that I have it, 100% assurance of Salvation - not because of anything that I've done, but rather what JESUS did for me.

I only have a short time to offer 2 cents worth because I'm trying to find out about our Brother Dreamweaver. I will let you all know if I get any news at all.

First, "fall" is many times rendered "stumble", and we all stumble from time to time. It is also completely true that we can harm our fellowship with Jesus by disobedience and sin. However, JESUS paid it all! When we stumble, we have an advocate - JESUS!

Second, the GIFTS of GOD are without repentance on HIS part. In other words, HE does not take back HIS GIFTS. The greatest GIFT is our Salvation that is made possible only through JESUS! I can do nothing to earn this GIFT, and I can do nothing that will cause God to take back this GIFT.

Third, the discussion of eternal security also addresses many worries that Christians have about illness or insanity. The devil doesn't want us to know that we can have 100% assurance of Salvation. The devil always wants us to doubt, especially when it comes to the promises of God. So, what happens if I have a stroke, go into a coma, go insane, or get Alzheimer's and do or say things that a Christian would never do? I am still saved by the Blood of Jesus - end of worry! No power can separate me from the Love of God, and no power can pluck me from the MIGHTY HANDS OF JESUS!

When we stumble or disobey, we might be and should be chastised by our Loving Father. That doesn't mean that HE kicks us out of the BODY OF CHRIST. When we stumble or disobey, our Joy in Jesus will not be full until we confess, repent, and pray. If we are unable to do that because of illness or insanity, the Holy Spirit still lives in our hearts, AND, the Seal of the Holy Spirit remains on our hearts - UNBROKEN FOREVER! No power can break the SEAL OF THE HOLY SPIRIT! The Seal of the Holy Spirit sets us apart as a possession of God forever. We were bought, paid for, and delivered to JESUS! The GREAT SHEPHERD gave HIS life for us, but HE LIVES, and HE has told us that HE is not willing to lose a single person from His Flock. We belong to HIM, and no power can take us from HIM.

Brother Joshua, I love your message, and I plan to spend much more time studying it. I love all of the posts that lead one to know that 100% assurance of Salvation is what God wants us to have. Our doubts cause weakness in us. Any doubts that we have should be limited to us, NOT GOD AND HIS PROMISES! The devil wants us to doubt God's Promises, thus making us weaker witnesses for JESUS.

Brothers and Sisters, this discussion makes me very happy that none of us placed our faith in ourselves or other men, RATHER IN JESUS! We are weak, but HE is strong! We fall and stumble, BUT JESUS NEVER FALLS, STUMBLES, FAILS, OR BREAKS HIS PROMISES!


Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 73:26  My flesh and my heart faileth: but God is the strength of my heart, and my portion for ever.

Galatians 2:20  I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Psalms 13:6  I will sing unto the LORD, because he hath dealt bountifully with me.

Romans 8:38-39  For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

That's exactly right....it's all about God, not us. He calls....and doesn't take it back.  He gives, and doesn't take it back.  There is nothing you or I can do to get it except believe....and He says if you believe, you get it....a gift...and He's not an indian-giver.

How can you give back something you never were resonsible for receiving?  How can you control anything that you never had power over to begin with?

Finally....the upshot of it is this. If we believe that there is NO security, then we are calling God and Jesus a liar.  We're saying that HE is not big enough to hold onto us, even though He said He would. We're saying that HE is not faithful, even though He said He was.  We're saying that He is NOT full of grace and mercy, but instead is a miserly bookkeeper just waiting for a chance to grind us down and cast us out.

I KNOW whom I have believed....and I TRUST that HE IS ABLE to deliver that which I have committed unto Him against that day.

Repent means to feel deep sorrow about one's actions; to wish one had not done something; to regret one's wrong, omission, etc.; to resolve not to continue a wrongdoing.  God doesn't regret gracing us, nor does He retract that gift of  grace because we didn't measure up, etc., but WE can reject it at any time. 1Tim:4:1 "But the Spirit explicitly says, that in the latter times, some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils."   Depart doesn't mean to fall or stumble; it means TO LEAVE.  One can fall temporarily or permanently. Stumbling does not generally mean permanence.  Usually, it means one hesitates because of a fork in the road (stumbling block).  If one takes the wrong road and realizes it along the way, one can turn around.  One has that choice.  However, one can also choose to keep going down that road because one thinks one can still get to where one wants to go, regardless.    

Jesus Christ died so that I (we) could be saved.  He chose us first, by dying for us.  He gave us the opportunity to say yes or no.  We didn't have that opportunity until Christ died for us.  Many people reject the gift of saving grace and later decide to accept it.  So, it stands to reason, if one can accept the gift of saving grace, then one can also reject it at any given time.  Isn't this what 1Tim:4:1 is saying?  If one departs from the faith then one rejects God.  That person loses their salvation.  I don't see how one could get saved, then, reject it, and still go to heaven.  It doesn't make sense.  Granted, if one is saved but contracts a mental illness rendering them unable to think properly, they're still saved.  That's common sense.  We serve a loving and merciful God.

Yes, God loves us unconditionally.  There isn't a thing WE can do to make Him love us more, or to make Him love us less.  Jesus said if we ask the Father anything in His name, the Father will give it to us, if, we abide in Him and He in us. There are conditions and those conditions are as long as we abide in Him.

Heya Bro!  I know where you stand on this, and you know where I stand.  But I thought I'd just point out one, grammatical, literal and contextual point concerning this passage.  Namely, that at no point is the topic of eternal security being spoken of in this passage.  It deals with the trial Paul went through, and his exhortation to fellow believers to remain strong as they too may one day face like persecution.  Granted, his fellows may have been tempted to run away after witnessing what had happened to Paul.  But Paul's exhortation is to remain faithful when our faith is being tried.  That's it.  No loss or falling.  Faith vs. failing.  Just thought I'd point that out my friend.   :)

God bless!

Sister Cris,

The portions of Scripture you are thinking about don't mean what you think they do. I don't feel well enough to do a complete study on this right now, so I'll simply give you some examples.

The only faith that was taught in my house was JESUS. Nothing else was taught to my children and nothing else was allowed. That does not mean that I can force my children to have faith in JESUS. I did the best I could, and I firmly believe that all of my children belong only to JESUS. I don't give myself any credit for that, rather it is a matter of praise and thanks to the LORD for working in my home. My mother and dad did the same in their home, and the Salvation of their children was always a matter of prayer. The faith of my earthly father's house was in JESUS. My brothers and I could have departed from the faith of that house, but we didn't. I give thanks for Godly parents who made it a top priority to bring up their sons in the things of the LORD. However, no amount of discipline, threats, or effort could have forced us to accept JESUS as Lord and Saviour. The exact same thing could be said about our little church. The Godly men and women there could work their fingers to the bone in trying to teach us, and the faith there was in JESUS. I give thanks that I was in the presence of strong faith in JESUS for my entire childhood. However, they couldn't have faith for me, regardless of how hard they tried. My own personal faith was mine alone, and I could have departed from everything I was taught. I give thanks that I didn't.

Other portions of the Holy Bible cause a lot of confusion for Christians. I'll be general, not specific to the Scriptures you are thinking about. There are instructions all over the Holy Bible for Christian living, Christian testimony before men, AND, instructions to follow that our joy in JESUS will be more full. Many people confuse these instructions with Salvation. James and 1 John are good examples. Some of these portions of Scripture cause some folks to believe that we lose our Salvation if we sin and other doctrines that are simply false. Others use these portions of Scripture to teach that Salvation depends on our good works and all kinds of other doctrines that deny the only TRUTH. We were saved by God's Grace, and JESUS CHRIST was a GIFT we could never earn or deserve. Salvation isn't on the installment plan, and it never was. The work of Jesus on the Cross for our Salvation was perfect and complete. If we are truly born again children of God, we were 100% SAVED at the moment we accepted JESUS. The work is done, and we are held in the Mighty Hands of JESUS forever. This leads to the last thought I want you to think about. There are some people who claim to be Christians who never met JESUS, and JESUS doesn't know them. There are some who play act at being Christians and they are as lost as one can get.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

So....then you're on probation.

Sad. Hope your probie officer isn't too much of a hard-nose.  What do you think it would take to be "over the line?"  A little lie?  A big lie? Maybe just an unkind thought?  How about not giving enough? Or saying no to someone in need?  Does not reading a chapter a day count? Or is just a verse enough?  Can you skip a verse today?  How about tomorrow?

If you would, please give me a list of everything that would constitute a violation of the probation rules, just so I'll know at what point I've blown it, and it's useless to try anymore.

lol...there ain't no such thing as probation in Scripture...LOL. Atta way to be blunt Evang...lol

God Bless

ROFL

Joshua

Brother Tom,

Your comments on faith were great!  They reminded me of a message our pastor preached a couple of Sundays ago.  One of the points he had was from Romans 1:16-17


We can't cram the gospel message down anyone's throat.  And while we express that message in words, we can never express it with words alone.  The salvation message is given "from faith for faith."  It comes from one who believes.  It is the belief of the one and the word of God for the basis of that belief that God uses when drawing someone to Himself.  I just thought that kinda neat.  It's faith that brings life.  I've always looked at that passage in context of Christian living, but it's about salvation.  I still think it applies well in the former, but the latter is the point.  "From faith for faith."   :)

Man will never be rightious enough or good enough or sinnless we cannot do anything to gain our salvation if we can not do anything to gain our salvation what ever could we to to keep it. Salvation is NOT a reward for our "good works" To say we must do 'this or that' is to say His salvation is not complete.

AMEN!

Silver,

Thank you.  I am blessed in the Lord because He saved me.  I don't ascribe to a works oriented philosophy.  There wasn't a thing I could do to save myself, and there isn't a thing I can do to keep it, either.  I am saved because God loves me.  I am saved by His grace only.  I am not worthy, nor is there anything I can do to make myself worthy, but God saves me anyway, because He loves me.

Some Christians believe in eternal security and some don't.  Those who don't believe in eternal security are still saved, regardless of what anyone says.  Each side has a list of bible verses proving their stance.  It's been an argument among Christians for a long time.

Again, please note Romans 11:29-----------God did not repent of giving us the gift of saving grace.  This is what Romans 11:29 is saying.

Sanctification is holiness.  Sanctification is separation.  Sanctification is relationship.  Sanctification is a state.  Believers are sanctified in Jesus Christ.  Sanctified believers are saints.  Sanctified saints are holy.

I NEVER SAID that God took away eternal life.  I said that one could reject it.

It isn't true that a person who believes in the possibility of losing their salvation is works oriented.  My thought was on one who deliberately and willfully decided to reject God.  Maybe they're called reprobates.  One can't say that this person wasn't saved in the first place.  That's a cop-out, in my opinion!

Thanks for addressing me as DEAR. ;)  You're a dear one, also!

Grace and peace,
cris

     

Brother Kevin,

I was just giving thanks that I've been surrounded by people who love the LORD for my entire life. I'm also giving thanks for all Godly parents who do for their children what my parents did for me. They were a reflection of the love and care of our LORD, and the LORD was definitely working in and through them for the benefit of their children and many others outside of the family. There's another interesting comparison between an earthly family and the family of God.

Brother, I'm also reflecting on the excitement and joy many here have expressed when they know that their children belong to JESUS. There is no irony that great joy is many times the result in God's work for our children. AND, that joy lasts for a lifetime.

Love In Christ,
Tom

1 Timothy 6:12  Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.

Psalms 35:9  And my soul shall be joyful in the LORD: it shall rejoice in his salvation.

II Timothy 3:16  All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

BEP,

Sorry to hear you're not feeling very well.  Is it your back pain?  Are your new meds not working?  Father, in the name of Your son, Jesus Christ, I lift up my brother BEP (Tom) to You.  I ask you Father to touch him right now as he reads.  Relieve Tom's pain.  Father, send Your angels to minister to and for Tom.  Send Your Holy Spirit to comfort him.  Give him wisdom, Lord God.  Give his Doc's wisdom.  Father, give him a word of encouragement today.  Father, I pray for a total healing for Tom, in every area of his life, mentally, physically, spiritually, and emotionally.  Give Tom courage and strength.  I thank You Father God that this child of Yours serves you, and I thank You Lord God that You've heard this prayer.  Amen.

The only verse I mentioned was 1Tim:4:1  Someone else mentioned three verses from Hebrews.

You wanted me to think on your last thought about some people play acting.  Are you saying there are people who don't believe but act as if they do, or, are you saying there are people who think they're saved but aren't?  Personally, and it's just my opinion, but I see no point in pretending to be saved.  Maybe, such a person as this sees a point in it, but I don't.  I have too much fear and respect for God to mock Him.  A long time ago, before I was saved, (maybe I better say before I was regenerated) when someone took the name of God in vain, I kind of shrugged my shoulders.  I didn't like hearing it, but it didn't bother me as much then, as it does now.  When I hear someone take God's name in vain, I fear for that person, not to mention how offensive it is to me.  My heart actually feels like it's in my throat.  I don't hear it very often, as I'm not around people who do this.  

Grace and peace,
cris

Sister Cris,

 :D  I believe that to be completely true and not a cop-out at all. There are many people who have sat in church most of their lives, and they're lost. They may have been baptized and done other things in name only. The blunt truth is that they were never saved in the first place.

Many things happen when a person is truly born again and Saved, and they are all wrought by GOD, not us.

1. We are quickened into the Body of Christ RIGHT THEN - IMMEDIATELY! The word "quickened" can be rendered "translated", but it really means immediately.

2. Atonement, sanctification, and redemption are all the works of JESUS, not us. It is JESUS who makes us fit for the inheritance HE has promised us, not us.

3. The Seal of the Holy Spirit is place upon our hearts, and the Holy Spirit lives in our hearts. No power can break the Seal of the Holy Spirit. This SEAL sets us apart as a purchased possession of JESUS forever. We certainly can't break this SEAL, and no other power can either, including the devil.

4. The PROMISES of Almighty God have been given, and those PROMISES are so sure that GOD speaks of them as being already done.

5. We have everlasting LIFE in JESUS, and we won't be brought under condemnation. JESUS paid the price and penalty for us, and we are passed from death unto life.

In short, we were purchased, delivered, SEALED, and set apart forever as a possession of JESUS. The Work of JESUS is Perfect and complete in us, regardless of how unworthy we may be. For all of the above reasons, assurance of Salvation is and should be 100%. Not because of us - BECAUSE OF JESUS. Not because of any goodness we have - BUT IN SPITE OF OUR LACK OF GOODNESS AND RIGHTEOUSNESS. Sister, we can't undo the Work of JESUS. BUT, here's what you call the cop-out again, there's nothing to undo if one has never been saved.

Love In Christ,
Tom

John 5:24  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

BEP,

I don't know if we're misunderstanding each other so, I'll try again.

What I meant was this--------no one has a right to accuse another of not being saved because of a difference of opinion regarding eternal salvation.  Some believe once saved always saved and some don't.  

Grace and peace,
cris

 

Sister Cris,

This thread doesn't contain any accusations like that. I just read the thread again, and there is no hint of an accusation like that. This is simply a discussion about eternal life and Salvation.

Love In Christ,
Tom

John 3:16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

I believe that Salvation cannot be lost nor can it be taken away.
It can be rejected but why in the world (or heavens) would someone that has tasted of that beautiful, sweet, heavenly gift, would want to reject it for the alternative is beyond all reasoning.

Heb 10:23  Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)

BEP,

No one accused me of not being saved.  In this thread there were implications that if one questioned eternal salvation they were on probation and not saved.  Another implied that one who questions eternal salvation calls Jesus and God a liar (I think it was on this thread).  I realize these are opinions and not direct accusations.  I'm sorry I used the word "accused" as it was too strong a word.  All I ever said was that I thought a person could reject salvation if they chose to, hence, a loss of it.

Grace and peace,
cris

No one firmly grounded in the Lord could possibly understand why anyone would reject salvation, but the point I was trying to make was that they could, hence, salvation lost.  There's a possibility that someone gets saved and remains a babe for too long a time, for whatever the reason.  Because of this, it's possible for them to be seduced or deceived or they just stop believing and go their own way.  1Tim:4:1 says in the latter days, some will depart from the faith because of seduction and doctrines of demons. I don't imagine Timothy was speaking of babes in Christ here, but rather those who knew Jesus Christ.  This is almost too incredible to believe, but it's prophecy and truth.  God sees it all from the beginning to the end.  This reminds me of the verse (don't recall exactly where it is at the moment, Matthew, I think) when God said He would shorten the days because if it were possible, even the very elect could be deceived.  

Grace and peace,
cris

 

If one is truly Saved:

John 14:16-18  And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Just one of the many promises of Almighty God.

The word that we are talking about is called
Apostasy: Professing faith without possessing it (1 John 2:19)
1 John 2:19 (New King James Version)
 
19They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
They had appeared to belong to Christ's disciples but their leaving revealed that they never really did. Thus Bibical apostasy seems to signify a process whereby a merely nominal believer is revealed by his separation to actually an unbeliever. Apostasy is not from the church or body of Christ, but rather from an external association with the church. Branches which appeared to belong to the true vine but not in vital union were dead and therefore cut off. (John 15:6)

Chancellor  posted:

BigD responds:
IMHO you have taken that portion of scripture completely out of context.

In Matthew 24:4-14 Jesus is speaking about the Tribulation. From 15 to the end of chapter 25, He is speaking of the great tribulation. In verses 5-12 many of the "seals" spoken of in the book of the Revelation are referred to.

So, Matt.24:13 is speaking of those who endure through the Tribulation, then they will be saved to go into the kingdom.

Chancellor  posted:

AMEN BIGD!

There are many reasons why a Christian can have 100% assurance of salvation in this age of God's Grace:

The finished work of JESUS on the CROSS that results in our redemption, sanctification, and atonement. This is obviously the work of JESUS, not our work.

When we accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Saviour, we are immediately Baptized by the Holy Spirit of God, and the Seal of the Holy Spirit is placed on our hearts, setting us apart forever as a purchased possession of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ.

It is our belief and faith in HIM an HIS work that saves us for eternity. It's a good thing that salvation is not our work, rather the Perfect and Completed Work of Jesus Christ on the CROSS.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Philippians 4:7  And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

BEP:
And a BIG AMEN to you also.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!