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From the book "BASIC BIBLE DOCTRINES" by Donald Webb.

THE BLASPHEMY OF THE HOLY SPIRIT

This subject of the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is something that has been a considerable problem to many. We would like to interject here some brief comments on this issue. In Matthew 12:24-32 we find the exact definition of the unpardonable sin. The Lord had just healed a man possessed with a demon, and in verse 24 the Pharisees accused Him of casting out demons by Beelzebub or Satan. The Lord then laid a scathing rebuke against them for such a harsh judgment against Himself. He said in verse 28:

But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you (Matthew 12:28).

The Lord was demonstrating through the power of the Spirit that He was able to bind Satan and take out of the world such as He wanted. Their accusation attributed Christ's power, the work of the Holy Spirit, to Satan. Concerning this very sin, the Lord said:

Wherefore, I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men; but the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit shall not be forgiven men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this age, neither in the age to come. (Matthew 12:31,32).

Several things should be noted about this sin. First, Christ has to be present and performing miracles that manifest the kingdom in order for one to commit this sin. Second, the sin is that of attributing the Holy Spirit's power to Satan. No other sin will fit; this particular sin is the only one the context will allow. Third, no believer can commit this sin because believers are in Christ and all their sins are forgiven. Fourth, this sin could only be committed by an unbeliever in the age in which our Lord walked this earth or in the coming kingdom which He called the age to come. Such events cannot be applied to this secret dispensation of grace, but rather the millennium.

Believers need have no fear of committing this sin, and no one in this dispensation of grace can commit this sin because the Holy Spirit is not manifesting the kingdom with miraculous power. In this dispensation of grace God is not imputing men's trespasses unto them but is offering salvation by grace through faith to all.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Much and Love The Lord!

Silver, unbelief is not a sin. It is just the exercise of "free will."

Salvation is a "free gift" from a loving God. It can be accepted or rejected upon your will.

Should I offer you a new car as a gift, you can either accept it or reject it. If you reject it, it is not a sin.

The answer lies in that portion which I posted above which I will repost:

Wherefore, I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men; but the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit shall not be forgiven men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this age, neither in the age to come. (Matthew 12:31,32).

Several things should be noted about this sin. First, Christ has to be present and performing miracles that manifest the kingdom in order for one to commit this sin. Second, the sin is that of attributing the Holy Spirit's power to Satan. No other sin will fit; this particular sin is the only one the context will allow. Third, no believer can commit this sin because believers are in Christ and all their sins are forgiven. Fourth, this sin could only be committed by an unbeliever in the age in which our Lord walked this earth or in the coming kingdom which He called the age to come. Such events cannot be applied to this secret dispensation of grace, but rather the millennium.

Believers need have no fear of committing this sin, and no one in this dispensation of grace can commit this sin because the Holy Spirit is not manifesting the kingdom with miraculous power. In this dispensation of grace God is not imputing men's trespasses unto them but is offering salvation by grace through faith to all.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

Silver, unbelief is a willful act by an individual. IT IS NOT A SIN Should I not believe what you write, Is that a sin? I DON'T THINK SO!

As Mr. Webb pointed out, Jesus had just cast out a Demon and the Pharisees accused Him by doing it through the power of Beelzebut, or satan. That was a FALSE accusation. Jesus was showing His power when he performed this deed. The actions of the Pharisees were blasphemy against the Holy Spirit,
Jesus answered them when He said:

Matthew 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Mark 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.

As Mr. Webb pointed out, Jesus had just cast out a Demon and the Pharisees accused Him by doing it through the power of Beelzebut, or satan. That was a FALSE accusation. Jesus was showing His power when he performed this deed. The actions of the Pharisees were blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

Now lets look at John 3:18 “Whoever believes in Him (Jesus Christ) is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.”

According to you, unbelief is blaspheming against the Holy Spirit and cannot be forgiven. However, John 3:18 says that the unbeliever (blasphemer) in Jesus is condemned already.

But Jesus says in Matthew 12:32 says that "whosoever speaketh a word against (blasphemes) against the son of Man (Jesus) , it shall be forgiven him. So, is unbelief in John 3:18 against the Jesus or the Holy Spirit?

The key to understanding Matthew 12:32 is the phrase: "it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come."

Lets look at the world that Jesus lived in when He said "in this world." The world at that time was Israel under the Law, and Jesus came to fulfill all the OT promises to the Jewish fathers (Romans 15:8). Jesus came to establish His kingdom here upon the earth, and according to OT prophesy it was time for that establishment because the king had already been born and was in their midst. Therefore, they were COMMANDED to preach "the gospel of the kingdom."

However, the Jews, as a nation, rejected their King and His KIngdom. So the time of the events we are discussion is in the kingdom age. So "in this world" is speaking of the days that Jesus was living upon the earth.

When we get to "the world to come." we are talking about when the Church, the Body of Christ, is no longer here upon the earth. It will have been raptured to heaven before "the world to come" comes to into existance. Therefore, this sin cannot be committed during this dispensation of Grace. In the coming kingdom upon this earth, Jesus will be present again.

In this dispensation of Grace, ALL believers are "IN CHRIST." "There is therefore no comdemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus. For ther law of the Spirit (new nature) of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death" (Romans 8:1-2). What a blessed assurance.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Ofteh and Love the Lord!

Quote from: BigD on January 31, 2005, 12:00:22 PM

I like BigDs response... Donald Webb is correct on this, we must take that passage in its context, and its context is speaking evil of the Holy Spirit. Certainly Not being unbelievers.

God bless

Jemi:
You seem to be digging yourself into a deeper hole. Romans 1:23-27 has nothing to do with Matthew 12:22-28.

22 Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw.
23And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?
24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.
25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

PLEASE STUDY the above passages carfully and in the context in which they were written.

In Vers 22 we see that one that was possessed with a devil, blind and dumb, was brought to Jesus and was healed.

Jesus, according to verse 28, cast out the devil by the power of the Holy Spirit, and the man was healed.

The Pharisees said that Jesus did that through the power of the prince of the devil (Beelzebub), verse 24.

Therefore, the Pharisees committed the unpardonable sin of blaspheming against the Holy Spirit. A sin that they could not be forgiven in "THIS WORLD (AGE)" or "THE WORLD (AGE) TO COME."

Q: What world (age) is Jesus talking about?
A: The world (age) in which Jesus was upon the earth. At the time Jesus was upon the earth, they were in the "kingdom age," when the Law was in effect, and the age Jesus came to fulfill. Way back in 2 Sameul 7, Israel was promised a King and Kingdom that would last forever. John the Baptist, Jesus and the 12 preached "the kingdom at hand," (about to be set up.) We know that it still hadn't happenedd yet because Israel, as a nation, rejected their King and His Kingdom. It is still future - "THE WORLD (AGE) TO COME," AFTER this dispensation (AGE) of grace is concluded at the rapture.

We know from Romans 11:7-12 that Israel has been temporarily blinded (set aside). The "gospel of the kingdom" has been replaced by "the gospel of the grace of God." These are two opposing gospels. The Law is not in effect. Those saved under "the gospel of the kingdom" have an earthly home/kingdom to look forward to. Those saved under the preaching of "the gospel of the grace of God" have a heavenly home to look for, NOT an earthly kingdom.

Therefore, the believer today does not fit in "THIS WORLD (AGE)" that Jesus was upon the earth, OR the WORLD (AGE) when Jesus returns and establishes His Kingdom upon the earth.

The world we live in today is the "dispensation (AGE) of grace," NOT the kingdom age.

It took me many years to understand the abpve verses. ONLY because I didn't read it in its context, and tried, like you, to read something else into it.

Ok...since i'm digging a deeper hold i didn't know I was digging, i'll continue digging. Romans 1:23-27 paints a picture of what will HAPPEN to those who utterly reject the Holy Spirit. Remember what happened at Sodom and Gomoraah? They rejected God and His statutes...and lived according to their own fleshly desires. Ultimately the Pharisees did the same thing. They ultimately rejected Christ, who was the LAW and who fulfilled the Law. Thus they were given over to the reprobate minds. I see that Jesus performed the miracle and they didn't believe, and for their unbelief, they blasphemied against God because His SPIRIT was at work. Another thing: I have studied the text in the context in which it was written and I'm not reading something else into it. It's clear to me that those who utterly reject the Holy Spirit, will be given over to their reprobate minds. So that's how the two passages corrolate. I"m well aware that the dispensation we're living in today is the age of Grace...i may not be the smartest cookie in the batch, but I know that much. The words "neither in this world, neither in the world to come" signify that no matter how long, they will have been sealed to that fate. Thus when this world passes away, and the new world (new heavens and earth of Revelation 21) comes, they still won't be forgiven and will suffer the second death. That much is clear. The word "World" is translated "Aion" or "aijvwn" which means:

# for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
# the worlds, universe
# period of time,

notice that it says in the world to come, signifying forever, or the eternity to come. Which fits right along with the new heavens and new earth or new WORLD that will be ruled by Messiah. I can't believe you said that the Believer doesn't fit in the world to come. Scripture is clear that we'll reign with Christ during the millenial kingdom, and be with Him always, even in the new heavens and new earth. So, once again, i'll keep digging, I may come out to the other side of the earth, when i do, i'll start digging again. Cause if you don't dig, how will you find. And for the record...don't tell me what i am or am not reading into. You havn't a clue what studying i've done on the subject, so you can't make that assumption accurately. Just be careful before you make any assumptions like that about me. God Bless

Joshua

Brothers and Sisters,

Just two cents worth:

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

There is only one law violation or sin that will result in eternal condemnation: REJECTION OF JESUS CHRIST AS LORD AND SAVIOUR!

This is the age and dispensation of God's Grace, and ALL sins are forgiven to them who have faith and accept JESUS CHRIST as their Lord and Saviour.

So, disbelief unto physical death is the only unpardonable sin. The BLOOD OF JESUS is all powerful. The Sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross was perfect and complete. When a person is Saved, born again, the sin of rejection and disbelief is forgiven. The same is true of all sins for the lost. They are only forgiven when they accept Jesus Christ as their LORD AND SAVIOUR. Those who physically die in their sins WITHOUT JESUS will be punished for eternity. Don't muddy the water by trying to include God's promises to Israel that are yet to be fulfilled.

Love In Christ,
Tom

2 Corinthians 5:17-18 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Romans 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 5:17-18 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

I Corinthians 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Ephesians 2:1-7 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

I Timothy 1:14-15 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

II Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

I Corinthians 1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Romans 10:9-10 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

BEP:
Matthew 12:22-32 (King James Version)

22 Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw.

23 And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?

24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.

25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:

26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?

27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.

28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Would you PLEASE read the above passage and then explain to me each verse in its context.

It appears to me that, as verse 31 says: ""ALL manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven; but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven."

PLEASE tell me What was the sin of blasphemy that the Pharisees committed? How do we commit that sin today?Also, I would like for you to show me the purpose of the cross prior to the raising up of Saul/Paul. Was it a blessing to Isreal or a curse the the Jews should repent of (Acts 2:14-19)?

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

BigD,

Brother, the answers to your questions are already posted in overwhelming detail. A repeat shouldn't be necessary for something this basic. Just look at all the information already posted.

You are focused on a portion of Scripture prior to the CROSS. Look in the same general area for JESUS describing the impossibility of a rich man entering the Kingdom of Heaven. Take it out of context, and it would be impossible for rich people to be saved. Put it in context, and you will see that what is impossible without Jesus is POSSIBLE IN CHRIST.

Your argument only makes sense if THE CROSS NEVER HAPPENED. However, the CROSS DID HAPPEN, so you can choose to believe the promises of GOD or reject them. It's just as simple as that. I choose to believe the promises of Almighty God without doubt of any kind.

Brother, one of the most basic MUSTS for studying the Holy Bible is applying BEFORE THE CROSS vs. AFTER THE CROSS! If you realize the VAST differences and changes, you wouldn't be asking these questions. For a saved person, the BLOOD OF JESUS is either sufficient for the forgiveness of sins or not. Almighty God and the Holy Bible proclaim that the BLOOD OF JESUS is all sufficient for the forgiveness of sins. You can choose to believe or reject that absolute fact! I choose to believe it without any doubts at all.

If you don't choose to believe the promises of God, we will simply have to agree to disagree. I'll simply tell you to study your Bible and leave it at that.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Colossians 1:12-14 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

Thought I'd add in my 2 cents.

It seems to me if we attribute a miracle to Satan's power, when it was Christ (Holy Spirit) in a follower who performed the miracle, it's unforgivable because it would be blaspheming the Holy Spirit. Even if we ask to be forgiven, it won't be, because God said it is an unforgivable sin. We really need to be very careful about what we say. People who aren't saved aren't asking God to save them (forgive them), so they are going to hell if they die in that unsaved state. If they ask God to save them (forgive them) God will do that. Being unsaved is not an unforgivable sin or else not one of us could ever be saved. Jesus was talking about 1 sin that was unforgivable-----blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. I've wondered if any of those who crucified Christ truly ever blasphemed the Holy Spirit because Jesus said, "Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do." Is there a possibility one HAS TO KNOW what they're doing in order to blaspheme the Holy Spirit? If this be the case, then it must be why it's unforgivable. Then again, Jesus asked the Father to forgive them, but we don't know if the Father did. We assume He did, but we really don't know. Kind of strange that Jesus forgave sins Himself in His 3 year ministry, but on the cross He asked the Father to forgive their sins. I've often wondered about that.

Bottom line, there's only one sin that won't be forgiven even if we ask, but that sin isn't the only sin that sends us to hell; dying unsaved sends us there also. It was forgivable while it was yet day, had we only asked.

BEP:
At the time that Jesus spoke the words found in Matthew 12:22-32 , the Cross WAS NOT IN VIEW and THE PURPOSE OF THE CROSS WAS YET UNKNOWN. It is not proper to read future revelation into a past event. That is a NO NO!!! I am sure that you don't read the Laws of Moses into the Garden of Eden, so why to you read what was revealed to the Apostle Paul into an event that happened several years after the what Jesus spoke in the above passages?

Without going to Paul's writings, SHOW ME me the purpose of the Cross in Matthew 12. While you are at it, SHOW ME where Jesus or the 12 ever preached the purpose of the Cross. YOU CAN'T DO IT, because the purpose of the Cross was still a secret/mystery.

1Cor.2:7,8 "But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world (before creation) unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they know it, THEY WOULD NOT HAVE CRUCIFIED THE LORD OF GLORY."

The "unpardonable sin" CANNOT be committed in this dispensation of grace. If it can, [b/PLEASE SHOW ME[/b] what sin it is.

I do agree with you when you said: "There is only one law violation or sin that will result in eternal condemnation: REJECTION OF JESUS CHRIST AS LORD AND SAVIOUR!" However, that is not the "unpardonable sin" mentioned in Matthew 12:22-32

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

Quote from: BigD on February 13, 2005, 04:23:02 AM

BigD quote...

Quote

Most definately agree with you that those who reject the "free gift" of God's grace will be condemned to hell.

Bronzesnake quote...

Quote

So, that is an unforgivable sin then???
or, can we be forgiven for rejecting the free gift of God's grace?

BigD
There several years that I had rejected the "free gift" of God's grace. That didn't make it an "unforgivable sin." Because, the years that I had rejected the "free gift" were forgiven me the moment that I placed my faith and trust in the Cross work of Christ for my salvation.

The "unpardonable/unforgivable sin", in the context of Matthew 12:22-32, CANNOT be committed in this dispensation of grace. If it can, SHOW ME what sin it is?

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

That's a very dodgy answer my friend.

You were forgiven because you accepted His free gift before He returned.
Tell me...what happens to all those who have not accepted the free gift once Jesus returns? are they forgiven?
Be careful here my friend, I can provide very specific scriptures to show exactly what happens to these people.

Remember your own words before you answer my friend...

"Most definately agree with you that those who reject the "free gift" of God's grace will be condemned to hell"

Bronzesnake

Two Minutes With The Bible - THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS

Feb 12

THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS

By Cornelius R. Stam

Some three thousand years ago, and about one thousand years before Christ, the Psalmist said:

"If Thou, Lord, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord who shall stand? But there is forgiveness with Thee..." (Psa. 130:3,4). The Psalmist did not explain, however, upon what basis a just and holy God could forgive a guilty sinner. This was to be proclaimed one thousand years later by the Apostle Paul, himself once "a blasphemer, and a persecutor and injurious"; the "chief" of sinners, but forgiven and saved by the infinite grace of God (Tim. 1:13-15).

Preaching Christ at Antioch, in the province of Pisidia,

Paul declared:

"Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that THROUGH THIS MAN IS PREACHED UNTO YOU THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS, AND BY HIM ALL THAT BELIEVE ARE JUSTIFIED FROM ALL THINGS, FROM WHICH YE COULD NOT BE JUSTIFIED BY THE LAW OF
MOSES" (Acts 13:38,39).

But even this does not fully answer our question, for we must still ask: On what basis does God forgive sins through "this Man"? The answer is: on the basis of His payment for our sins on Calvary’s cross. Thus the Apostle wrote to the Romans, explaining how we may be...

"...justified freely by His [God’s] grace, THROUGH THE REDEMPTION THAT IS IN CHRIST JESUS" (Rom. 3:24).

Now, thank God, through Christ’s finished work, there is not a sinner who needs to remain unforgiven, for:

"In [Christ] we have redemption, through His blood, THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS ACCORDING TO THE RICHES OF HIS GRACE" (Eph. 1:7).

________________________

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Two Minutes With The Bible

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BEP quote:

Quote

Brother, the answers to your questions are already posted in overwhelming detail. A repeat shouldn't be necessary for something this basic. Just look at all the information already posted.

BigD
Sorry friend, I cannot find what I asked you in prior postings. Would you PLEASE point out which ones you think did? I don't think you will because you can't.

BEP

Quote

You are focused on a portion of Scripture prior to the CROSS. Look in the same general area for JESUS describing the impossibility of a rich man entering the Kingdom of Heaven. Take it out of context, and it would be impossible for rich people to be saved. Put it in context, and you will see that what is impossible without Jesus is POSSIBLE IN CHRIST.

BigD
It appears to me that the Pharisees committed the "unpardonable sin" prior to the Cross. Therefore the Cross had noting to do with it. If it did, EXPLAIN IT TO ME

I have checked out Matthew 19:23; Mark 10:23; and Luke 18:24, and I can't find where it says that "it would be impossible for rich people to be saved." That, my friend, is reading the verses in context.

BEP quote

Quote

Your argument only makes sense if THE CROSS NEVER HAPPENED. However, the CROSS DID HAPPEN, so you can choose to believe the promises of GOD or reject them. It's just as simple as that. I choose to believe the promises of Almighty God without doubt of any kind.

BigD
BEP, the promises to Israel prior to the Cross and the promises to the members of the Body of Christ are not the same. In Matthew 12, God is still dealing with Israel as His favorite people. Again, the Pharisees committed the "unpardonable sin" prior to the Cross. WHY do you read the Cross into it?

BEP quote

Quote

Brother, one of the most basic MUSTS for studying the Holy Bible is applying BEFORE THE CROSS vs. AFTER THE CROSS! If you realize the VAST differences and changes, you wouldn't be asking these questions. For a saved person, the BLOOD OF JESUS is either sufficient for the forgiveness of sins or not. Almighty God and the Holy Bible proclaim that the BLOOD OF JESUS is all sufficient for the forgiveness of sins. You can choose to believe or reject that absolute fact! I choose to believe it without any doubts at all.

BigD
If you had taken your own advice, you would not have read AFTER THE CROSS]/b] into BEFORE THE CROSS.

BEP quote

Quote

If you don't choose to believe the promises of God, we will simply have to agree to disagree. I'll simply tell you to study your Bible and leave it at that.

.

BigD
I do believe ALL the promise that God has made. He will keep the promises He made with Israel and the different promises He made to members of the Body of Christ.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

BEP:
I am in full agreement with Pastor Stam's article on the FORGIVENESS OF SINS. However, I has nothing to do with the "unpardonable sin" of Matthew 12:22-32.

I have met and have gotten to know Pastor Stam way back in 1964. Have all of his writings. You should study them and learn how to "rightly divide" the Word of Truth.

Just wish you would understand the "unpardonable sin" of Matthew 12 in the context it was written.

Maybe the following article by Pastor Win Johnson will help you understand it in its proper context. It was take from a past issue of the Beraen Searchlight.

The Unpardonable Sin
By Pastor Win Johnson

"I'm afraid I've committed the unpardonable sin." This grim statement climaxed a telephone conversation the writer recently had with a lady in our city. Among other things she related how an accusing conscience tormented her "day and night" till she was almost at the point of mental derangement. Realizing that the Bible speaks about such a sin, and being unable to arrive at the knowledge of sins forgiven, this lady, like many others, concluded that she must have committed the "unpardonable sin," and consequently, would never be forgiven.

It was the writer's joy and privilege to point out the Scriptural, as well as dispensational solution, to her distressing problem.

Matthew 12:31,32 states: "Wherefore I say unto you, all manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world [age], neither in the world to come."

These words of warning came from the lips of the Son of God while He walked among men in His earthly ministry. They were addressed to the religious leaders of the nation Israel. Their blasphemy against Him even when He hung on the Cross was forgiven by the Father in answer to the prayer, "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do" (Luke 23:34).

But when at Pentecost, Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, announced the return of Messiah on the condition of Israel's national repentance, these leaders instigated a persecution that reached its climax in the stoning of Stephen, a godly man, "full of the Holy Ghost" (Acts 7:54-60). It was here that the "unpardonable sin" was committed by Israel's leaders. The Third Person of the Trinity had been blasphemed and His pleadings through the Apostles ignored. This sin will never be forgiven.

In this age it is blessedly true that "we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace" (Eph. 1:7). Though all sin is unpardoned till it is forgiven, it is not unpardonable. Christ died for all sin. The penalty has been paid and God now offers eternal life as a gift to be received by faith. Have you received this gift? Do you know the joy of sins forgiven? You can! "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved" (Acts 16:31 cf. I Cor. 15:1-4).

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

Wow,
This is so unbelievable. The whole point of this conversation is
"is there a sin that you can commit that you will not be forgiven for".
The Answer to that is yes. The one sin is to reject Christ and die in that state of rejection.
The thing to understand here is that blaspheme has more than one meaning and it has to be understood what it is meaning in each context that it is in.
If you look the word blaspheme up in a Bible Dictionary you will find it has a few meanings. But when you study it in the context of Matt.12:31-32 the idea is this
"The Pharisees slander the Holy Spirit by knowledgeably attributing His work to the devil, thus commiting the unpardonable sin. The sin was not an act of impulse or ignorance, but the result of a continued and willful rejection of the truth concerning Jesus. It was a sin againts spiritual knowledge, for they has ample evidence of the truth from the words and deeds of Jesus. In deliberately choosing to insult the Spirit, they forfeited His ministry in their lives and will not be forgiven." New King James Study Bible (Thomas Nelson)

Now this act is actualy done by the Atheist today because Jesus has still been perfoming miricals and the evidance of GOD is His word. Jesus said He is the Word. Yet Atheist give credit to science and big bangs and so forth.(a form of blaspheme) Now can they beforgiven. Yes they can if they ask God and Accept Jesus and the plan of salvation. But if they shall die in that state, hell is their home.
So with all that said the whole thing is
DON'T BE CAUGHT DEAD WITHOUT JESUS!!

Quote from: Mrs.Chosen on February 14, 2005, 04:22:46 PM

Amen Lisa!
I've been trying to tell my friend BigD that exact same thing.
He either can't or won't listen to the simple truth...as you so aptly stated... "The Answer to that is yes. The one sin is to reject Christ and die in that state of rejection."

Let me make a prophetic prediction...

BigD will reject this Truth and say the following..."EXPLAIN IT TO ME" or "SHOW ME" however, he won't know it when he sees it or believe it when he hears it! :D even after acknowledging the truth, when he said the following...

"Most definately agree with you that those who reject the "free gift" of God's grace will be condemned to hell"

He's an enigma wraped inside a mystery! :D

By the way...welcome to C.U. Lisa!

Bronzesnake

Bronzesnake quote

Quote

Can a person be forgiven once they find themselves in Hell? If not, then isn't the sin of not accepting Jesus before they went to Hell an unpardonable sin? or is there more than one "unpardonable sin" depending on the "context"

BigD
I agree, once a person finds themselves in hell it is too late to be forgiven. It isn't that they could not have been forgiven prior to death had they accepted Jesus.

Like I explained to you earlier Bronze. Before I became saved, according to you, I had committed the "unpardonable sin." So if my unbelief was "unpardonable," then there is no way that I can ever be pardoned, even if I became a believer.

In the context of Matthew 12:32 there is only one unpardonable sin that will not, and cannot be forgiven in "...this world" (age) (the age that Jesus was living), and "...the world (age) to come" (the age that the kingdom is established upon the earth).

Verse 31 says: "...ALL manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men; but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men."

The Pharisees committed the "unpardonable sin" that never can be forgiven when they accused Jesus of healing the man with a devil by the power of Beelzebut, the chief of the devils." THAT MY FRIEND IS THE "UNPARDONABLE SIN" OF MATTHEW 12:22-32." That's the sin that the Pharisees will NEVER, under any circumstances, be forgiven. If you, and any other, cannot see that, then I highly recommend that you all go back to school and take a reading comprehension course.

Like I have said. One to day cannot commit a sin that "cannot" be forgiven. There is a big difference between "cannot" and "will not."

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

BigD,

I just got reminded again why don't discuss things with you, and I won't be making the same mistake again. On your next statement of obvious false doctrine, I will simply post the bold truth and leave you talking with yourself.

There is nothing left of your argument but your own vanity. You know it and so does everyone else.

The Apostle Paul was a blasphemer. So, by your false doctrine that denies the CROSS, the Apostle Paul is unforgiven and in hell for eternity. The discussion is now beyond ridiculous, so I am going to leave you to argue with yourself.

There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

ALL sins are forgiven when a person accepts Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour.

THE ONLY UNFORGIVABLE SIN IS REJECTION OF JESUS CHRIST UNTO PHYSICAL DEATH.

I'm thinking about buying you a rock so you won't be alone when you argue for your own vanity alone. Do you have a color preference? :D

You have the last word, and I'm fairly sure it will be more false doctrine. Go back to the basics, and maybe you will understand it one day.

Moderator

1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Luckdogger asked:

Quote

A question is there a unforgivable sin and if so what is it or they.

sherkandogre responded

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Technically there is. Matthew 12:32 is the unforgivable sin. "Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come."
My view isnt the most stable on this subject but im leaning to not apply to Christians.

BigD
All the responses that I have made go back to the 1st post on this thread and sherk's reply. My first response was to the subject of the "unforgivable sin"/"unpardonable sin" from the book "Basic Bible Doctrines" by Donald Webb. He address the entire subject in question from the context of Matthew 12:22-32. I am in total agreement with what he has written on those passages of Scripture, and am defending what he has written.

To the best of my knowledge I have NEVER said, or implied, that there is a sin that COULD NOT be forgiven. I am well aware of the fact that if one does not accept Jesus as their saviour, then that one WILL NOT BE FORGIVEN for rejecting the "free gift" of God's grace, and will be condemned to hell.

The only sin that WILL NOT be forgiven, when commited, under any circumstances, to my knowledge, is found in Matthew 12:32 "And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it SHALL be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, it SHALL NOT be forgiven him. meither in this world (age), meither in the word (age) to come." Can anyone show me Scripture that refutes Matthew 12:32. It is also my believe that this sin cannot be committed in this dispensation of grace.

The world (age) that Jesus lived in is the period in which John the Baptist, Jesus and the 12 preached "the gospel of the kingdom." With Isreal's rejection of their King and His Kingdom, the "gospel of the kingdom" has been interrupted and replaced by "the gospel of the grace of God." The world (age) to come is the period after the Chruch, the Body of Christ, is raptured, and "the gospel of the kingdom" will again be preached to all the world before the end come. The Chruch today, the Body of Christ, is not looking forward to a kingdom to be established here upon the earth.

While a person is in unbelief, that one is commiting a sin that is forgivable up until the moment that one dies. In the context of Matthew 12:22-32, I do not believe that the "unpardonable sin" can be committed in this dispensation of grace.

I REST MY CASE!

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

BEP says:

Quote

The Apostle Paul was a blasphemer. So, by your false doctrine that denies the CROSS, the Apostle Paul is unforgiven and in hell for eternity. The discussion is now beyond ridiculous, so I am going to leave you to argue with yourself.

BigD responds:
I have NEVER said that or implied that. It is your FALSE assumption.

Bep quote...

Quote

There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

BigD responds:
I BELIEVE THAT.

BEP quote...

Quote

ALL sins are forgiven when a person accepts Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour.

BigD responds:
I BELIEVE THAT.

BEP quote...

Quote

THE ONLY UNFORGIVABLE SIN IS REJECTION OF JESUS CHRIST UNTO PHYSICAL DEATH.

BigD responds:
I would say it little different. Rejecting Jesus is FORGIVABLE up to the moment of one's death.

BEP continues:[/b]
[quoteI'm thinking about buying you a rock so you won't be alone when you argue for your own vanity alone. Do you have a color preference? :D

Quote

BigD answers:
How thoughtful of you. Would you please make it a bright YELLOW. That color would be a great reminder as to where I got it. Would you like my mailing address?

Also, I would like for you to correct me for any false doctrine that I post.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

do we believe that GOD has left us or did He not send the Holy Spirit to dwell with us here on earth. Now either He is here or He's not. I say GODTHEFATHERJESUSHOLYSPIRIT are one. So if the Holy Spirit is here then GOd is here. Now is the water and tress GOD's work? Does it show His power? Oh yes.
Is a baby still a mirical from GOD. Oh yes, trust me they are.
Does GOD still work His miricals on earth now? Meet one!! (ME).
So don't the Atheist go around saying all day every day that GOD's work is not his work? Don't they say it's mother nature and science. Mirical after mirical they still say He is not.
Look up the meaning of blaspheme in the context and I will tell you it is done today. GOD is here on earth today by His Holy Spirit. And if I am in Spirit and I am used by GOD and someone says "she is of the devil when she did this or that"
Now keep in mind that GOD is working through me...
what will you call this?
Just a thought.
Please keep an open mind. I always want to learn something new about GOD. That means sometimes letting go of my opinions and what I though to be true.
Also I leave it up to The Holy Spirit to teach me truth and not a mans book. Reading is good but The Spirit of GOD is who gives us truth!

I love this board!!

Quote from: shrekandogre on January 23, 2005, 11:31:00 PM

Does this verse imply that some sins that are not forgiven in this age will be forgiven in the age to come? We know that blaspemy against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven in this age nor the age to come but what about unconfessed sins of a lesser nature than the blasphemy one? Does 1 Tim 5:24 apply?
24Some men's sins are open beforehand, going on to judgment; and in some men they follow after.
We know that if we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. But what if we do not confess a sin and then die, at the judgement what will happen? Will it be forgiven in the age to come? After all, we have eternal life. So are some sins forgiven in the age to come? Will there be some sort of chastisement at that time or is every one joyful and recieve an overcomer's award? Will some be ashamed before Him at His coming, saved, yet so as by fire? Will all hear "well done thou good and faithful servant"? Is the age to come forever or is it the 1000 year reign of Christ?
These are all questions that I am pondering? May the Lord give each of us understanding.
asaph

Silver

Quote

BigD, you continue to hold on to Donald Webb’s commentary on this subject, particularly to the fact that he says when Jesus spoke of “this age,” He was only referring to the age in which He was living.

How can Mr. Webb and you come to this conclusion? What defines the ages in the Matthew 12:31-32 passage?

BigD
EXCELLENT QUESTION Silver.

"This age" that Jesus is referring to in Matthew 12:32 is the age AT THAT PRESENT TIME.

When Jesus was physically upon the earth, the earth was in the prophetic times, and in those times the Law was in effect. So we can say, They were living in the age (dispensation) of the Law. In those prophetic times, the children of Israel were promised a King and an everlasting kingdom. The everlasting kingdom we know is the mellenial reign of Christ. That is "the ages to come" of the same verse. Jesus came to fulfill all the OT promises to the fathers (Romans 15:8).

Are we (members of the body of Christ), living in the same "age" that Jesus lived in? Are we under the Law? Are we looking forward to the mellenial kingdom upon the earth? The answer to all of the above is NO!!!

We are living in an age in which Paul speaks of in Ephesians 3:2-5 "If ye have heard of the dispensation (age) of the grace of God which is given to me to you-ward: How that by revelation he made know unto me the mystery: (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made know unto the sons of men, as it is NOW revealed unto his holy apostles and prephets by the Spirit:"

We are living in the "age (dispensation) of grace," which is outside the age of the Law.

The Law IS NOT in effect. ""Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances (LAW) that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross." (Colossians 2:14).

We are not looking for an earthly kingdom but a heavenly home. "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air; and so shall we ever be with the Lord" (1Thess.4:16-17).

"For our converssation (citizenship - NIV) is in heaven: from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ" (Phillipians 3:20).

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, and hous not made with hands, eternal in the heavens" (2Cor.5:1).

This age (dispensation) in which we now live cannot be found in the prophetic scriptures and is a "(parenthetical)" period within the age (dispensation) of the Law.

In the "kingdom age" wich "is to come," the Law will again be in effect. We will have 12 disciples sitting on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel. Jesus is coming back as "the Righteous Judge." Judges need laws to judge by.

We, members of the Body of Christ, do not and will
not live in either of the two ages mentioned in Matthew 12:32.

PLEASE Silver, do not read future revelations to Paul into the Gospels. Paul wasn't even saved during the time period of the Gospels.

It is when we mix LAW that was given to the children of Israel as their instructions in righteousness, with GRACE that was given for the instructions in righteousness for members of the Body of Christ, the Chruch for today, is when we get the confusion that is so prevelant in the Chruches today. Mixing Law and Grace, as one gospel/doctrine, only leads to confusion and denominations. LAW and GRACE are two distinct and different doctrines that can be found in the Bible.

Hope the above is helpful.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord.

Quote

We, members of the Body of Christ, do not and will
not live in either of the two ages mentioned in Matthew 12:32.

BigD:

At the time Jesus was speaking, there were (and are) three "ages" or dispensations left to come.
1. The Dispensation of Grace, which we are currently in. It qualifies therefore as *an* "age to come".

2. The Millennial Reign, when Jesus is sitting on the throne in Jerusalem administering the law. It qualifies as *an* "age to come". In accordance with scripture, when Jesus returns to this earth to establish His reign and rule, there are those who accompany Him....who are they? They are the saints, those who have been redeemed, previously taken up to heaven by Him at the rapture, and includes all OT saints also who predated Him in death, and were "captivity led free." In case you've forgotten, at the rapture the born again believer is "converted" in accordance with:
1Cr 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Please note the bold part refers to both the physical and the spiritual.

3. The Final Age (eternity), following the GWTJ, when a new heaven and new earth are created. This qualifies as *an* age to come. It will be populated by all redeemed, including "the Church".

Evangelist:
Please allow me to respond to you post by coping from an article written by Tracy Plessinger.

It is quite long, so I will put it in 3 parts. Please read it in its entirety.

PART 1The following is from an Article by Tracy Plessinger titled: "The Bible's Most Misunderstood Verse" by Tracy Plessinger.
>SNIP<

God' Eternal Unchanging Plan

Scripture makes very clear that God has only ever had one plan. That plan has been in effect since before the world began and will be fulfilled only after time is no more, in the dispensation of the fulness of time.

Paul, a servand of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; In hope of eternal life, which God, that connot lie, promised before the world began; Titus 1:1,2

Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath pruposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: Ephesians 1:9,10.[/b]

The heart of this plan is seen in the passage from Ephesians quoted absove. God's eternal purpose and plan is to glorify His son, Jesus Christ, to "gather together in one all things in Christ".[/b] This eternal purpose can also be seen in Paul's letter to the church at Philippi.

Wherefore God also had highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of thing in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth: And that every tongue shall confess that Jesus Chris is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Philippians 2:9-11.[/b]

Clearly, God's eternal purpose is to have all creatures glorify the Son, Jesus Christ, Which in turns brings honor to the Father. It is also clear from two of the passages quoted above that this one eternal purpose of God is to be carried out in two different locations, on earth and in heaven.

There is however, an impediament to God's plan. There is one who desires to usurp the rightful position of Christ as the one that is glorified by heaven and earth. The being who desires to have the honor and glory that belong to Christ is Satan. In the book of Isaiah, we read of his selfish desire.

For thou [Lucifer] hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Isaiah 14:13,14. [/b]

It is very significant that Satan uses a specific title of God when he sets out on this course of rebellion. He refers to God as, "the most high".[/b] That title is a title that relates specifically to God's ownership of heaven and earth. This can be seen as we look at the first time that that title is used in Scripture.

And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:...And Abram said to the king of Sodom, I have lift up mine hand unto the Lord, the most high God, the possessor of heaven and earth, Genesis 14:19,22.[/b]

What we are read in scripture, from Genesis to Revelation, is an account of Satan's attempt to become the possessor of heaven and earth, to replace Jesus Christ as the ruler of the universe. We also learn of God's counterattack and that God's plan, in the end, will overcome Satan's plan. In the end, Jesus Christ will alone be glorified in heaven and earth.

Dispensational Bible study simply acknowledges the fact that Satan has attacked God's authority on two fronts, the heaven and the earth, and that God will repel that attack and be victorious on those same two fronts. The first person to rightly divide the Word of Truth was not some modern-day dispensationalist. It was God.

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Genesis 1:1[/b]

God presents His creative act as an act that produced a divided universe, a universe that consists of two parts, the heaven, and the earth. In order to fully understand God's plan we must understand how that plan will be carried out in both of these areas.

God Plan on the earth

To be cont'd in PART 2

Part 2

God Plan on the earth

As we continue in the first chapter of the book of Genesis, we immediately see where God's plan is focused initially.

And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon theface of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon theface of the waters. Genesis 1:2

And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the foul of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. Genesis 1:28

And God said, Let there be lingths in the firmanent of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for light in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. Genesis 1:14,15[/b]

It is clear that the creation described in Genesis 1 is focused exclusively on the earth. It is the earth that is said to be "without form, and void".[/b] It is the earth that man is told to "replenish"[/b] and "subdue",[/b] Even the light that God created in heaven were for the purpose of giving light "upon the earth."[/b]

After the flood, God gave similar instructions to Noah and his sons.

And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth. Genesis 9:1 [/b]

With the setting aside of Abram to begin the formation of the nation Israel we see that the focus was still on the earth.

The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them: and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose. Isaiah 35:1

Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee, For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. and the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings ot the brightness of thy shining. Isaiah 60:1-3

Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold broken to peices together and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth....And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. Daniel 2:35-44 [/b]

Notice that Isaiah points to the wonderful utopian conditions on the renewed earth and how the Gentile nations will flow into that blessing. Daniel emphasizes the fact that the [/b]"God of heaven"[/b] will establish a kingdom that fill "the whole earth".[/b] These passages are typical of the message that the prophets brought to the nation Israel. They were continuing God's focus on reestablishing His aughority on the earthly part of His creation.

Christ was presented to Israel as the rightful heir to the earthly throne of David.

And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favor with God. And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: and he shall reigh over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. Luke 1:30-33[/b]

Christ taught His disciples to pray for the kingdom to come to the earth.

Afther this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Matthew 6:9,10[/b]

The apostles tied their message and its returning, triumphant Messiah to the fulfillment of the prophetic Scriptures.

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ which before was preached unot you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the Mouth of all the holy prophets since the world began. Acts 3:19-21.

All of the facts above show us that during the time frame covered from Genesis 1:2 to Acts 9, focus of God's message was on the earth.

God's Plan in the Heaven

To be cont'd in PART 3

PART 3

God's Plan in the Heaven

In the 9th chapter of Acts we see a significant change begin to take place as Jesus Christ speaks from heaven to a man who would become the Apostle of the Gentiles.

And as he [Saul] journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about a light from heaven: And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? And he said, Who art thou Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick agains the pricks. Acts 9:3-5[/b]

Clearly, Paul had a calling that was heavenly in nature. The setting aside of Paul and the formation of the Body of Christ marks a change in God's focus from the earth to heaven. God's basic plan to glorify Christ has not changed at all. His purpose is still the same one that He conceived before the foundation of the world. With the ministry of Paul, He is now simply revealing the heavenly aspect of that plan. In the book of Ephesians, Paul makes quite clear that the focus of the Body of Christ is heavenly.

The Body of Christ is blessed in heavenly places.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ; who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: Ephesians 1:3[/b]

The Body of Christ is seated in heavenly places.

And hath raised us up together, and made us sip together in heavenly place in Christ Jesus; Ephesians 2:6[/b]

The Body of Christ is ministering to beings in heavenly places.
To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, Ephesians 3:10[/b]

The Body of Christ has at it head a Christ who has ascended above and therefore rules over heavenly places.

He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) Ephesians 4:10[/b]

The Body of Chris is fighting a war with beings in heavenly places.

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the drkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Ephesians 6:12[/b]

Paul is also careful to make sure that we understand that our eternal destiny is in the heavenlies, not on the earth.
For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saour, the Lord Jesus Christ; Whom shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unot himself. Philippians 3:20,21

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the vocie of the archangel, and with the trump of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first; Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: an so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. I Thessalonians 4:16-18[/b]

Notice that our comfort is not found in the return of Christ to establish an earthly kingdom, as it was for Israel. Our comfort is found in Christ catching us off this earth to reign with Him for all eternity in the heavenlies. Our eternal destiny and conversation is in heaven and not on the earth.

We should note one other important truth about all of this information about God purpose being fulfilled in heaven. It was all kept secret in the mind and heart of God until it was revealed to and through the Apostle Paul.

Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made know to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans:25,26

Notice that Paul says that the information he is preaching was "kept secret since the world began". This is a marked contrast to Peter's preachings things "which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began."[/b] (See Acts 3:21, quoted above) God's plans concerning the heavens were kept secret until revealed to and through the Apostle Paul.

These facts show us that the truth of God's plan being fulfilled in heaven, the truth under which we operate today, is found exclusively in the writings of the Apostle Paul to the Chruch, the Body of Christ. We must go to those writings to understand how God will fulfill His purpose in heaven, and how we should live based on our place in that heavenly plan.

The fulfillment of God's Plan.

We have already seen that in the book of Ephesians God reveals the fulfillment of His lplan in eternity future, both on the earth and in heaven, as all things are gathered \"together in one...in Christ".[/b] As God closes out His revelation to man we see that He has in fact brought everthing full circle.

And I say a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. Revelation 21:1[/b]

God's one eternal plan will be fulfilled, both in heaven and on earth. Jesus Christ will be honored and glorified in all the universe.

The only way that we can truly understand the entirety of god's plan is to rightly divide the Word of Truth and realize that He is working to carry out this plan in two areas, the heaven and the earth.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

Brian.L.

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Hi This also is just my opinion. :) I feel the unforgivable sin is to never ask for forgiveness if God is calling you. When I confessed my sins I was getting convicted so I ansered.

If a person does not ask for forgiveness how then can God forgive him/her?

I feel as long as there is a yearning for God in our livesthen we are safe from having committed the unforgiveable sin because does not the Word of God say that no one can come to the Father unless the Father calls him/her.

BigD
Brian, the believer in this dispensation of grace will NEVER be judged for their sins. ALL SINS (past, present and future) of a believer have been paid for on the Cross of Christ. Therefore, it is impossible for the believer to commit the unpardonable/unforgivable sin.

1Cor.3:8-15 tell us that the believer will be judged at the Judgment Seat of Christ and be rewarded according to our works, not according to our sins.

The following is a conversation between two very good friends of mine that was posted on another forum. I have met them both at a Bible conference some years back. We are like minded believers and very good friends. "Berean" lives in Florida and "Fish" lives in Ohio.

This should answer the question "Can the believer today commit the unpardonable sin" in this dispensation of grace.

Berean

No law = No transgressions?

The bible says we do not obtain salvation by the law, but we obtain it by faith in Christ's shed blood for our sins, that it might be by grace.

Before the dispensation of grace was revealed to Paul and the new program was started, faith by grace...Israel was under the law.

Under the dispensation of the law, transgressions were committed

Under the dispensation of grace there is no law...therefore for a saved person, there is no transgression.

--------

fish

Rewards - not salvation - is the issue for Christians

Without Christ, we are here under the Law (conscience or the written Mosaic code)...

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

"In Christ," we are here under grace:

1 Cor 6:12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

1 Cor 10:23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

Titus 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

So how does the saved one know what is edifying?

1 Th 5:21 Prove [discern, examine, try, test] all things; hold fast that which is good.

Do Christians - who are dead to the Law - have the freedom to engage things which are NOT good? Drug abuse, homosexuality, adultery, theft, etc etc? YES.

SHOULD they? NO:

Gal 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh,

Is God pleased by Christians living in and for the flesh? NO.

Will He chastise them? Very possibly!

Will He condemn them to Hell for it? NO.

BUT!!!

Will they be edifying themselves and others in the Body by their sinful example? NO.

Are they building themselves up to the fulness of Christ? NO.

Are they building for eternity with gold, silver, precious jewels, OR with wood, hay and stubble? The answer is obvious.

Can their example negatively impact the faith and walk of other Christians? YES.

Can their example cause unbelievers to mock Christ more than they already might? YES.

Are they grieving the Spirit? YES.

Are they slandering the name of Christ? YES.

Will they lose reward at the Bema because of it? YES.

Knowledge of the Mystery is vital here, as Paul's letters are the only place to find out how God is dealing with man today, and who the Christian is "in Christ:"

2 Tim 2:7 Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.

I'm glad you brought this up, B; I'm going to store this one away in my files (it'll preach).

---------------

Berean

I am glad you liked this topic Fish...Let me give you the verse and the good news I based this on...

Romans 4:15b...for where no law is, there is no transgression.

It is impossible to lose one's salvation if one is saved, because we are not under the law. Therefore no transgression can be made against the law and we cannot be judged according to it. Because there is no law for a saved person.

So if God were going to judge us He would judge us according to what???? Can't be the law...For He Himself says THERE IS NO TRANSGRESSION

And what would it be??? What charge would He bring against us??? What transgression could we commit??? THERE IS NO TRANSGRESSION

So how does one lose his salvation???

We have already been judged guilty and Christ paid for our sins and we are now not under the law but in Christ and His righteousness...not our own.

I am sure we could have many little chats on this subject...but I am sure our Catholic friends, for one, will not like this one.

Romans 4:14: For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

15: Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

16: Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace;

-----------------

fish

You are 100% correct.

Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth His Son, made of a woman, made under the Law,

Gal 4:5 To redeem them that were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Christ lived a sinless life under the Law (HIS Law, when you think about it).

Yet He submitted Himself to the Law's death penalty for our sins.

All of that - the sinlessness, the death to sin, and the resurrection life - is credited/imputed to all who simply believe. That's all there is to it. He took our sin, we get Him.

Could God have done more for our salvation that He did in Christ? No. Could He have made it any easier for us to be saved? No. No wonder adding even one work to His one demand of faith is damnable.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

Hi Again: Having read some of the posts here on this subject and I am confused as why a Christian after confessing his sins and confessing Christ would continue stealing .homosexuality, murder ect and still be in heaven. I understood the law to be in the old testament to be sacrificing animals for sin.

After Christ died on the cross the viel of the temple tore seperating the Holy of Holies gave us direct accsess to God the Father through Jesus.

Does not the Word say the if we are luke warm God will spew us out of His mouth? Did not Jesus say that man cannot serve both God and mamman.

Does not Jesus say that we are to still obey the Ten Commandments?

Does not repentance mean turning around and going the other way ?

Is not the Holy Spirit called a helper. I will have to study more on this subject I get my eye appointment next week as I can hardly see the print in my Bible so I haven,t been able to copy the scritures here and I am sorry for that.

Just for the record I am non denominational but do believe in folowing the Ten Commandments as the Bible tells me that it is a mirror of when I sin. afterall God is Love and the first four commandments show us how to love God and the final six show us how to love our fellow man.

I know I am a babe in christ ,but I back slid years ago and am just reaffirming my faith.

your Brother in Christ: Brian.

Quote from: Brian.L. on February 19, 2005, 11:23:35 PM

Brian,

I was just in the middle of trying to answer some of your questions when I was distracted by someone, turned around to face that person, and then returned to my post to you, discovering it had all been erased. I have no idea how that happened. My dander is up a little bit now. Practically the same thing happened last night when I was about to post you.

Grace and peace,
cris

BrianL

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BigD
Believers still sin because they still have the "old sin nature" within them. However, "There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it" (1Cor.10:13).

Being the believer has two natures (old and new), the one the one that will dominate is the one that is fed the most.

BrianL

Quote

After Christ died on the cross the viel of the temple tore seperating the Holy of Holies gave us direct accsess to God the Father through Jesus.

BigD
It is very true that we do have direct access to God the Father through Jesus, but we do not learn that is because the veil of the temple was torn seperating the Holy of Holies from the rest of the temple. All we learn from the Bible is that the veil was rent in two. We could now see that God no longer dwelt in the Holy of Holies. We are not even told that God dwelt there when the temple was rebuilt.

BrianL

Quote

Does not the Word say the if we are luke warm God will spew us out of His mouth? Did not Jesus say that man cannot serve both God and mamman.

BigD
That saying came from the book of the Revelation 3:16 which was addressed to the church at Laodicea, one of the seven chruches in Asia, during the Tribulation period. It was not addressed to the Body of Christ, which will have been raptured to heaven when the period of the book of the Revelation takes place.

BrianL

Quote

Does not Jesus say that we are to still obey the Ten Commandments?

BigD
Trying to obey the Ten Commandments as a means to get to heaven will not get you there. That would make the Commandments a matter of works. Salvation today is not based upon works but FAITH ALONE in the Cross work of Christ.

"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross" (Colossians 3:140}

However, In Paul instructions in righteousness to members of the Body of Christ include all the precepts of the 10 Commandments with the exception of keeping the Sabbath.

If all members of the Body of Christ would love one another as much as Christ loved us, we will have fulfilled all the commandments of God.

BrianL

Quote

Does not repentance mean turning around and going the other way?

BigD
Yes it does. Also means have "a change of heart". Could also mean to regret/request forgiveness for a thought, word or deed.

BrianL

Quote

Is not the Holy Spirit called a helper. I will have to study more on this subject I get my eye appointment next week as I can hardly see the print in my Bible so I haven,t been able to copy the scritures here and I am sorry for that.

BigD
Once one puts their faith and trust in the Cross work of Christ for their salvation, we are baptized into the Body of Christ by the Holy Spirit.

"Likewise, the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered" (Romans 8:26)

BrianL

Quote

Just for the record I am non denominational but do believe in folowing the Ten Commandments as the Bible tells me that it is a mirror of when I sin. afterall God is Love and the first four commandments show us how to love God and the final six show us how to love our fellow man.

BigD
I am also a non-denominationalist. For my Christian walk, I try to follow the instructiions in righteousness that God gave to the Apostle Paul for members of the Body of Christ.

"Wherefore then serveth the Law? It was added because of transgression TILL the seed (Jesus) should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the had of a mediator" (Galatians 3:29).

BrianL

Quote

I know I am a babe in christ ,but I back slid years ago and am just reaffirming my faith.

your Brother in Christ: Brian.

BigD
The only way a "babe in Christ" can be fed is upon the Word of God. Therefore, the more one studies and rightly divides the Word of Truth, the more that one will grow in grace and in the knowledge of the Lord.

I was once a sinner that was saved by the free gift of God's Grace. I am now a saint that still sins.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

Quote

Brother Brian,

It worked perfectly, and I'm sure that you will get used to the other available commands pretty quickly. If you don't wish to quote the entire post, you can drag your mouse over what you don't want quoted, hit the delete key, and have only the portion you want quoted.

Some of the more difficult commands are discussed under the Questions and Answer portion of the forum. How to add a graphic to your signature or the body of a post is one such question that is discussed there.

There are many forum commands that are pretty easy to use once you try them once (i.e. bold, italic, underline, font size, font color, etc.).

Let me give you a few example. First, I must replace "[]" with "{}" so that you can see the example. The actual command must be done with "[]" and the forum software automatically uses that when you press one of the command buttons. Some people type the commands themselves. The material you want the command to work on must be placed direct center between the beginning of the command and the ending of the command.

{b}Bold{/b} becomes below
Bold

{i}Italics{/i} becomes below
Italics

{u}Underline{/u} becomes below
Underline

{color=Red}Red{/color} becomes below
Red

{size=6}Size{/size} becomes below
Size

Here's a hot clickable URL address that works as an example:

{url}http://forums.christiansunite.com/{/url} becomes below:
http://forums.christiansunite.com/ (http://forums.christiansunite.com/)

Here's a non-existent email address that would work if such an address existed.

{email}joeblow@somewhere.com{/email} becomes below:
joeblow@somewhere.com

Here's a hot clickable and real example of using a graphic:

{center}{img}http://www.sirinet.net/~blkidps/welcome.gif{/img}{/center} becomes below:

(http://www.sirinet.net/~blkidps/welcome.gif)

Please note that the graphic must be on the Internet with a permanent and real address 24 hours a day for this to work. It won't work if it is simply on your computer.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Brother Brian,

You are most welcome.

Brother, I want to tell you that we're very happy to have you with us. It's makes me especially happy that you have made JESUS the Lord over your life. We all have struggles of one type or another, but having JESUS is our hearts makes everything possible. When we are weak, HE is strong.

Brother, as you grow in JESUS, you will find out some wonderful things. First, you will never be alone again. In times of trial, illness, sorrow, and suffering - HE walks with you every step of the way. Second, HE will strengthen you as much as you let Him. That's why many Christians give thanks for their trials, because they became closer to Jesus and stronger in Him during their trials. Third, He really wants you to be able to claim VICTORY IN HIM. We fail, but our LORD never fails.

Brother, I've read most of your posts, and I give thanks that JESUS is working in you. JESUS is also working in me, so I know about HIS power and love. That's why it makes me so happy to hear about others who are giving their hearts and lives to HIM.

Brother, I pray that you will get stronger by the day in JESUS. When you let Him, HE will fill all of your hurting and empty places with joy in Him. Brother, He didn't promise us an easy path during this short life on earth, but even this life on earth with HIM is the difference between darkness and LIGHT. Brother, you will smile when you realize that your citizenship is in Heaven and you are no longer of this world. Your journey here is very short, but your eternal life is Home with JESUS is Heaven.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Philippians 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

Philippians 4:7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

Psalms 118:24 This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.

Psalms 46:1 God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble.

Ephesians 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.

Psalms 62:7 In God is my salvation and my glory: the rock of my strength, and my refuge, is in God.

Psalms 66:20 Blessed be God, which hath not turned away my prayer, nor his mercy from me.

Philippians 4:19 But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus.

Psalms 115:11 Ye that fear the LORD, trust in the LORD: he is their help and their shield.

1 Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

Brother Brian,

We are all responsible for the whipping and crucifixion of Jesus Christ.

BUT, here's the good part. Jesus Christ is Almighty God, and no power in the universe could have forced His sacrifice for us. He did it willingly and as a Gift because He loves us. Mankind has disobeyed Him and hurt Him with our sins since He created us.

Brian, you could make a comparison between an earthly father and his son. Children many times hurt their parents in more ways than they understand. Habitual disobedience of a child is very discouraging for earthly parents. Now, let's take the comparison back to Jesus. He loved even the most disobedient enough to die for them. On top of that, He has patience, love, and mercy to continue calling those who reject Him and even hate Him. Earthly parents never come close to the Love of our Heavenly Father. In fact, His love is beyond human description. Christians are actually His children, and He continues to forgive them when they make mistakes and sin. In fact, He gives us a Heavenly inheritance that is eternal. He will even give us glorified bodies for the eternal life to come, and they will be free of pain, suffering, and disease of any kind forever.

Brother Brian, it just gets better from here. What He has prepared for those who love Him is beyond human imagination.

Love In Christ,
Tom

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Galatians 4:4-7 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

Philippians 4:6-7 Be careful anxious for nothing; but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God. And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding. shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

ChristiansUnite Forums

Theology => Debate => Topic started by: luckydogger on January 22, 2005, 09:33:28 PM