ChristiansUnite Forums

From: ________
Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2003 8:47 AM
To: mike@michaelmoore.com
Subject: On behalf of my son, John

Dear Michael,

My step-son ________ has been in Iraq since March 19th. Last night he spoke to my husband on the phone (no, not a phone provided by the US government, an Iraqi satellite phone which he pays for himself). His unit got hit in a mortar attack. He watched one of his comrades get his legs blown off. His buddy tied tourniquets around the other soldier's legs and managed to stop arterial bleeding, luckily he is still alive.

_______ tried to give one soldier (a woman MP) CPR but she died in his arms

_______ said that this is the worst it's been since the "end" of the war. He said the troops have been given new rules of engagement, and that they are to "take out" any persons who aggress on the Americans, even if it results in "collateral" damage. Unfortunately, _______ did have to kill someone in self defense and was told by his commanding officer "Good kill."

_______ replied "You just don't get it, do you?".

Here we are...Vietnam all over again.

_______ is a peace-loving 25 year old who enlisted to pay off his undergraduate loans (45K!) and to get free grad school. He never believed he would be put in a situation like this.

My husband, who served in Vietnam, was a consultant to the defense industry for 20+ years. On March 19th he quit his job, (even though he had a ten year contract left) in protest of this administration's policies. Money is definitely tighter around our house but we wouldn't have it any other way!

I want to thank you for getting the truth out there, Michael. I no longer watch or read any mainstream media and have encouraged everyone I know to do the same. Your books and videos will be my Christmas gifts to everyone this year (including my right-wing family in Buffalo!).


Thank you, Thank you
Don't stop doing what you do!

___________
__________, Virginia
__________________

 Oh ya, I believe that's a legitimate letter. I wonder how it got out of Moores greesy hands and onto the net. ::) I can produce a nice letter also...would you like to read what mine says?

 
 That's so typical! Hey Sad Sack, if you don't want to be a soldier, don't join the army!!!
The army isn't a free ride welfare system my friend. The education aspect is a benefit to "soldiers" who may some day have to actually fight and even be killed. Don't act so surprised to know this - it's not a secret!

 Please...don't come here to Canada, we have enough nut cases here already.

 Bronzesnake

ROFL  ;D ;D ;D


This one isn't worth the time.

It is very sad what the war in Iraq has done tp Americans and the world.

It brings out unChristian attitudes in the best of us no matter whether liberal or conservative.

Satan is working both sides against the middle folks.

Come ye out of it. Be ye seperate and holy unto God.

You too, ollie

ollie

ROFL! Its true!   :-[

They havent even figgered out what to do with me yet!  :-[

Hey someone got a picture of Michael Moore they can post on the troll site, he is their head troll.
Future Can,
              Do you honestly believe that this letter is going to fly on a Christian site? Maybe your young, maybe you don't know the truth about Mr Moore and his movie and most every movie has ever produced. But he is an idiot in the worse way, not a friend to Christians.......so why would you come to a Christian board and post this? Now if I am wrong forgive me but if your name has any reference to what you really believe and I am afraid it does, I'll help you pack.

musicllover

Future_Canadian,

I don't know whether Canada will take you and Michael Moore. If not, we will take up a collection and help both of you leave to another part of the world, hopefully some place far away where we don't have to listen to you.  People fought for your right to be heard here, but you would be silenced in most of the world.

Even a troll like you will be heard here, but only if you obey the forum rules. You've already gotten two formal warnings about cursing and/or links to sites with cursing, so you will probably silence yourself.

This is a formal and public warning that your next violation of the forum rules will result in a magic act - YOUR DISAPPEARANCE!

Moderator

Here's my thoughts...He's already been inaugeruated into office now. Grow up and get over it. You may not like it, but face it, Bush won, God must have wanted him in office, get over it and move on with your life. I sit here and watch both christians and non christians argue and get down and depressed and just down right stubborn. So what your candidate didn't win....maybe he did if your for bush...the point is. Don't dwell on the past, focus on the present and what God wants you to do NOW. What happened happened. Let it go and move on with your lives. If we continue to look back over our shoulders, we're not going to see the sin that's about to smack us right in the head. Besides, if we look back, we're not going to see the trials that are coming our way, nor pay attention to God. I'm 17 years old. I'm not old enough to vote yet, but I do know this, all this complaining that Bush got re-elected has got to stop...if it doesn't it only leads to more division amongst us as Believers, and it shows a side to non-believers that would damage OUR witness. This is all i'm going to say on the subject, so for you older folks...time to suck it up and let it go, and follow GOD'S WILL. The moment we quit whining about the election and focus on what He has set before us, we'll be a lot better off. As Ecclesiastes says "For there is a time for everything" the time for complaining is up. And i'm not saying this to stomp on any toes, this goes out to everyone, because all to often when politics becomes involved, the focus goes OFF of God, and onto man, and that's not what God wants.  As we say at school, Make it a great day or not the choice is yours, here's another one, Make it a great 4 years or not, the choice is yours. God Bless

Joshua

 well stated my brother!  :D


 Come on Ollie, can't we have any fun?  :D

Bronzesnake

AMEN BROTHER JOSHUA!

I prayed for President Clinton every day that he was in office. He was not my choice, and he did many things that most Christians feel was an embarrassment to the entire world. But, that didn't change our prayers for him.

If Kerry had been elected, I would be praying for him every day, regardless of my agreement or disagreement with what he stands for.

President Bush was my choice, and he was elected. He deserves the prayers of every Christian every day, regardless of agreement or disagreement. Obstructionists do nothing but hurt our country. There will be another election in 4 years, and we should be praying for our President during those 4 years.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Ephesians 1:3  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Agreed...a nation of Believers UNDER God and standing up for God is a powerful force indeed. However, it's just a sign of the times....America's teetering on the edge...I just pray i'm not here to see her when she falls...for it will not be a pretty sight. Just a few thoughts.

Joshua

Future Canadian??????

What does your post have to do with Canada?  
"_______ is a peace-loving 25 year old who enlisted to pay off his undergraduate loans (45K!) and to get free grad school. He never believed he would be put in a situation like this."  

I am tired of people complaining that they didn't sign up with the army to go to war.  They only joined so they could become a pilot, a doctor, a kindergarten teacher.  Didn't they understand that they were becoming a soldier?   I guess they thought it was summer camp.  

It's called the something for nothing attitude. Government  is supposed to give these people everything without them doing anything to earn it.

They have forgotten that freedom isn't free.

Sign up to be a Soldier and you had better be prepared to be one!



The only way Iraq is like Viet Nam is in the way these people are reacting to it and denigrating our Soldiers and Sailors.

Pastor Roger,

I agree entirely with your point that if one signs up to go to military school, or joins the armed forces, then one had better be prepared to fight.  There do seem to be some troubling cases in Iraq though, where soldiers are being forced, against their will to stay for much longer than their terms of service, which may be problematic in the future.

I must say that I disagree with your statement:

"The only way Iraq is like Viet Nam is in the way these people are reacting to it and denigrating our Soldiers and Sailors."

I will not tell you that the two conflicts are identical, but to make a statement such as yours, is to under-analyze the situation.  I beleive the two are similar for several reasons.

1. They are both wars fought with a conventional army against a guerilla style force.

2.  The defence department grossly misjudged the nature of the enemy in both cases.  I think that in both instances, the military elite felt that victory would be swift and easy, not realizing that the real fight would not be against uniformed or conventional forces, but in the streets.

3.  The incramental increase of force size.  I think you will find the number of u.s. servicemen and women in Iraq has and will grow, much as did throughout the 60's in Vietnam.

4.  The lack of a clear exit strategy.

As a result of these similarities, I think that the U.S. has a tough fight on its hands.  Other than the fact that no modern army has ever defeated a guerilla style opponent, I beleive that a weak conventional defence to the U.S. initial onslaught was part of the Iraqi plan all along.  If any guerilla leader can take one lesson from Vietnam, its if you drag out a fight long enough, Americans may lose their stomach for flag draped coffins.  I'm not saying that this is neccesarily the case here, but it is certainly worth some time and thought.

Finally, I do not beleive that speaking out against the war is denegrating the fine men and women of the armed forces.  I have the utmost in respect for anyone who dons their nations uniform.  To borrow a vietnam era slogan: agianst the war, not the soldiers.

thanks,
thom

This too is a part of their contract. Their service contract can be extended for a period without their agreement to it. They signed that dotted line. They should be aware of what they are signing before they sign it. As with any contract read before you sign.


I will concede to the fact that they are both a guerilla style force that we are now fighting.


This is not true. Our troops were told from the start that this would be the case. Yes, we were hoping for swift and easy results but were well aware that it may not be so.


This is no different than in any war that we have fought in. In WWI and WWII the number of U.S. Servicemen and Women were increased in numbers in the war as the need warranted.


Again no different than any other war that we have fought in. Plans for an "exit strategy" can not be made in advance. There are to many variables to consider until that time comes and what is being planned certainly isn't being disseminated to the general public for obvious reasons to anyone that understands the elements of war.




"against the war, not the soldiers"  does in fact denigrate our troops. Our troops are a part of that war, that war is a part of them. You cannot separate the two. It is what they are doing. To tell them any different belittles them and what they are doing. It causes many problems just as it did during Viet Nam. Low troop moral, more of our troops being killed, support of the enemy giving the enemy more fuel and determination to keep fighting. This is what happened in Viet Nam and is again happening now.

People need to stop playing this game and let the troops do their job.

Pastor Roger quote...

 
 BRAVO!! Right arm! Farm out even!
I am sick of goofy statements like that also. It's clearly a shot at Bush at the expense of our troops in this case. Buddy boy needs to get over it and get a life!

p.s. Pastor Roger...Look at your private messages once in a while my friend!  :D

Bronzesnake

I'm not ignoring you, Bronze. It has taken me awhile to read everything on your site.  Responded today.


I agree these peoples agenda is at the expense of our troops. They don't seem to be able to comprehend that and it is the reason Viet Nam turned out the way it did.

I have to rofl about the supposed "exit strategy" that is supposedly necessary when fighting a war.

You fight to win. Exit occurs when winning occurs. To plan a strategy to exit rather than to fight to win is losing the war before it begins.

My son-in-law was 27, and the father of two when 9/11 occurred. He joined the army, believing that it was something he must do.

He's been in Iraq for a year.

He's killed terrorists (the intelligentsia likes to call them 'insurgents').

He's helped rebuild two schools, a church and a mosque.

He's made friends with some Iraqi Christians.

He's been held over (stop-loss).

He (along with all of his unit - 1st Cav, 2/7) say that being there was, and is right...and at least 90% of the Iraqi's they come into contact with agree, and want them there.

In 1836, Texians said "Remember the Alamo....Remember Goliad"

In 2004, Iraqi's are saying "Remember Halabja"

Evangelist, I am praying for your sons safety. Also I want to publicly thank him, for his service to the country. I pray, that God keeps him safe, and in his embrace.

We see people today saying, to get out of Iraq. The truth is,..... "Freedom is not free". Some times you have to fight for freedom.  SO in ending, I want to say, thank you, for those who serve, God, then country.

Bob

Evangelist,



I join in Dreamweavers prayer for your son and I wish to also join in thanking him for his service. Not enough appreciation can be given to all of our troops for their very important work that they are doing.

I hope that you pass this on to him and his unit, Thank you all.

 Please send my thanks also. I wonder if there's any way to e-mail any of these fine soldiers so we can thank them personally? Anyone know?

 Bronzesnake

Give me a little time Bronze and I'll get you some e-mail addees for that.

 Thanks very much Pastor Roger...I had a good feeling that you would come through first.

Bronzesnake

There are several ways that you can send them an email. One if you know their name you can send it as follows:

john.smith.us.army.mil

Call local National Guard unit armories talk to the soldier left there to man the armory, and ask for the name of the LT or Commander with the unit in the sandbox. With that name, you can send an email to him directly through the ako process I told you about. Its easy to get the names of unit commanders... theyre all over the newspaper... and any time you see a soldiers name in the paper... he/she will most likely have an ako account also.

The other way is to make a thread on here for all that want to say something to them and I can send it to some troops that I know. That will cover four different units.

 Hey thanks very much my friend!
I started a "Letters To Soldiers" thread on current events.

 I'm going to private message you with my e-mail address so you can add it along with the letter I wrote...If that's ok with you.

Bronzesnake.

Thank you, Bronze. I am sure that it will mean a great deal to them. I will let the thread grow a bit if it will and then send them all together. I am sure that they will appreciate the return email address also so they can return the thanks.

DW, PR, BS (hmmmm):
Thanks much for your support and continued prayers. The next several days are particularly critical. He has been sent back to Baghdad for some "special details" (read search and destroy).  Seems his squad was the one particularly requested by the Marines to come to Fallujah because of some of their "outstanding" work in Najaf...now their "special skills" are being requested again.

My daughter is able to instant message with him several times weekly, but it's inconsistent. I doubt if he'll be able to get any messages until after the election, and they go back to Camp Taji.  Lord willing, he'll be in Kuwait next month, then home in March.

Evangelist..

 I think I can speak for most here when I say we will be praying for your boy, as well as all the heroes over there.

 Evangelist quote...


  :-[ :-\ :'(  :D

Bronzesnake

Well....you have to understand. Being from cow country and all.......  ;D

 :-X :-X ;D ;D

Yes, obviously God did want him in office...but one ponders "why"?

While I was ranting over how people could possibly re-elect a man who has been proven a liar, it suddenly occurred to me that in order for Revelations to be played out, all the right players have to be in place so satan can fulfill his role.  I see George Bush as helping to set the stage with his arrogance and war mongering.  

I no longer worry about Georgie boy.  I am reminded that I am to be "in" the world, not "of" it.  What will happen, will happen as God planned from the beginning.

Melody

 Just curious...exactly when was Bush proved to be a liar? and what was the lie?
 Have you ever been proven to be a liar my friend?

 Bronzesnake

The fact that you ask the question says I can never convince you that he did.  

As for your second question....no, not only have I never been proven a liar....but I don't lie....about anything.  It's one of my little quirks....one that my family and friends have learned to respect over the years lest they ask me a question they really don't want the truth on.


Melody

Bingo!

God wants George W. Bush as the President of the United States.

Yes?

No?

What do you think?

There are several lessons in the Holy Bible about this very subject, but for probably different reasons than those stated.

Well, on top of everything else, the American people put George W. Bush in office, and they could have taken him out of office. So, we have a President for 4 more years - end of the story - the people have spoken.

Now, it's a matter of how we go forward with our President. The election is over - water under the bridge. The losers need to quit being cry babies and learn how to do something positive for their country. Things will go forward with the losers or without them, so they may as well lend some positive input to what already is and will be.

If any world leader fits into the plan of Almighty God, no power on earth will be able to stop or slow the plan of GOD. The same is true that no power on earth can hasten the plan of Almighty God by even 1 second. The plan and will of Almighty God will be fulfilled at exactly His appointed time and way.


It will be regardless. It is time for the cry babies to do the work of the people or go home. If they don't, the people will help them go home with each election and put someone else in the office who will do the work of the people. No amount of crying, whining, and complaining will change the results of the election. It is over, and George W. Bush is our President. I give thanks for that, but some of you probably disagree. There are obviously some who will try to cripple our country and cry for the next four years. Does anyone know where we can buy some crying towels?   :D

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 18:46  The LORD liveth; and blessed be my rock; and let the God of my salvation be exalted.

 There is a difference between being wrong and being a liar.
I know that many people honestly believe Bush lied about WMD's, and that's fair. However, there is very good evidence which points to the fact that Russian agents were in Iraq just prior to the beginning of the war. They were at weapons depots, and they left with a large convoy of covered military trucks and were seen via satellite entering Syria.
 What do you think was in the trucks my friend? It's not as black and white as you may think.

 Are you familiar with espionage? Have you ever considered the possibility that the U.S. was set up by Russia - China - Egypt - Syria etc? Can you come up with any scenarios as to why such countries would want the U.S. to appear to be...
 A) Oil and war hungry
 
 B) Attacking Islam

 C) Inept at intelligence

 Consider this...Russia was in on the secret schedule for the start of hostilities against Iraq, Russia knew exactly when they could safely enter Iraq, collect weapons and cross into Syria.

 The implications are mind boggling my friend. So perhaps you should hold back on your judgements against a man you don't even know.

 P.S. Everyone has lied many times throughout our lives my friend.

Bronzesnake

OH my....you tell me to hold back judgment and yet you just made one me by stating *everyone* has lied.  Where is your "holding back judgment?"

I repeat.   I never lie.  Not even as a child.  I was known as a goody two shoes and have continued that life as an adult.  Not because I'm better than anyone else but because that's the way God made me.  That's not to say I don't have other little vices I need to work on.  It's just that lying was never that vice.

BEP,
You have no more proof that he was misled than I do that he lied.  We are basing our views on our own perceptions.  

You appear to believe that other countries are out to get us and are somehow setting us up.  While I agree that may be true to a point, I also believe our own government is not above "setting us up" so they have an excuse to go to war.  Did they?  I don't know and I don't have the time or inclination to worry about it.  I am in this world, not of it.  What will be, will be.

Just because someone is against Bush, his war and his government, it doesn't make them "cry babies" and when you resort to name calling, it makes what you have to say somehow less valuable.  It also does not go well with calling others "brother and sister" or signing your posts "Love in Christ."  I doubt Christ would have called others names just because they disagreed with him.

It reminds me of the story our pastor told last Sunday of a woman who was pulled over by a cop and when she asked why, he said, "Well, you were driving like a demon, honking your horn at anyone who slowed you down and flipping people off who got in your way.  When I noticed the Christian bumper stickers on your car, I just knew this car had been stolen because a Christian wouldn't act that way."

 Melody. stateing a fact, that we have all lied in our lifetimes is not judgement, it's a factual statement. Specifically pointing a finger at an individual and calling them a liar is not necessarily judgement either as long as it's true. I can safely say that you do not have inside information in regard to Bush being a liar. You base you "judgement" on media reports. The media is not privy to national or foreign security issues, and they only speculate on the side of their own political affiliation. For every article that proclaims Bush to be a liar, I can provide one at least, which exhonerates Bush.

 Telling people that you have "never" lied even as a child, is in fact, a lie, and it ruins your credibillity my friend. No honest person would ever believe that there is any human being, alive or dead, that never told lies.

 We have all lied at some time during our lives. Especially as children. Kids always lie. Mom; "Did you color on the wall?"  Child; "no"  ;)

Bronzesnake

And yet you do not know me or my life.  You are making a judgment on me and my life.

You state all people lie as if it is an impossibility for someone to be honest at all times.  By that rational, I would say that *all* people at some time in their life have murdered someone.

I'm sure you won't agree with that so my question to you is, why is it difficult to believe that you can make it through life without murdering, but not that you can me it through life without lying.  Is it because you think lying is a trivial thing in most people's minds and so is more easily done than murder?

I don't think lying is a trivial thing and never have.  Btw....I never drew on the walls as a child.  My mother used to say I was the perfect child, which I translate to boring, but it did not give me opportunities for needing to lie.

When people ask me a question (does this make me look fat), I will answer tactfully but honestly.  I've lost jobs because I wouldn't lie for my boss even by telling someone on the phone that he "had just stepped out of the office."

So please, do not begin to think you know me or can condemn me as a liar.  It doesn't speak well of you as a Christian....even if you do try to cloak it in trying to show someone the error of their ways.

Granted, I haven't read all the posts on this thread, but thought I'd add my 2 cents worth on this last one.

I, too, never lied as a child.  I was taught that truth was everything, therefore, lying wasn't an option.  I would report things I had done wrong even before anyone knew about them.  I guess I was building character way back then without realizing it.  I thought everyone was like me in that they didn't lie, either.  I trusted just about everyone.  I don't have any idea how old I was when I realized people lied.  Sorry, I was an adult when that happened.  Naive?  Yep!  Wish I still were that naive.  It's so great living in a world believing most people are truthful.  It isn't the world I live in now.  This almost sounds like the story of Adam and Eve and the serpent.  When they ate the fruit, indeed, their eyes were opened and they knew good and evil.  Geez, it WAS great not knowing.

I understand where you're coming from, Melody.

Bronzesnake, there are children out there who don't lie.  Besides Melody, I was another.

cris

I have a son that "did not lie" as a child or so he thought. It was just that he did not preceive that what he was saying to be a lie. He thought that what he was saying to be the truth so therefore it was the truth.

I.E. He was playing with his friends and said some things that made the other kids made enough to hit him. When asked about the situation he said that the other kids started the fight. In his eyes the other child started it because they took the first swing not because he mouthed off to them and provoked them.

Lies or truth, it is in the eyes of the beholder or the eyes of the one telling it.



 

Brothers and Sisters,

There is only one who ever walked this earth who never lied, JESUS CHRIST! That's just a plain and simple fact. We are all guilty of lying and many other sins. We are all violators of the Law that no man could keep. JESUS CHRIST fulfilled the Law and died on the cross for our sins.

The only righteousness that a man has is as filthy rags. As Christians, our righteousness is in and through JESUS CHRIST alone. In other words, any righteousness seen in us is seen only THROUGH JESUS CHRIST. We were in desperate need of a SAVIOUR, and JESUS CHRIST was and is the only perfect Sacrifice for our sins. HIS SACRIFICE had to be a GIFT, simply because there is no man worthy, deserving, or able to earn Salvation. The work of Salvation was finished perfectly by Jesus Christ on the Cross, and it had to be because no man has any righteousness in and of himself.

If one says that they never lied, they are also saying that they never sinned. Again, there is only ONE who can make this statement in complete TRUTH, JESUS CHRIST! JESUS CHRIST is the only ONE who ever walked this earth that will be or can be called THE TRUTH. Without Jesus in our hearts, we can do nothing that is pleasing in HIS SIGHT.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 3:10  As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

John 14:6  Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Philippians 3:7-14  But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

John 15:1-5  I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

[If one says that they never lied, they are also saying that they never sinned. Again, there is only ONE who can make this statement in complete TRUTH, JESUS CHRIST! JESUS CHRIST is the only ONE who ever walked this earth that will be or can be called THE TRUTH. Without Jesus in our hearts, we can do nothing that is pleasing in HIS SIGHT.
]

You make several wrong assertions here.

1.  If one says they've never lied, they're saying they've never sinned.
So by this do I infer that the only sin to be committed is the sin of lying?  There are obviously *many* sins you can commit.  Lying just isn't one of mine.

2.  You state that I have lied and this is based on fact.  Please post your facts as to instances where I have lied and please post your proof that I have lied.  Your *belief* that all people lie based on your own experiences is not proof, btw.

Pastor Roger, so you also believe that everyone lies or is delusional?  I'm beginning to pity both of you that the only relationships you've had in your life were full of deceit.

Melody,

Sister, we can agree to disagree. I won't be contending anymore over your statement of self-righteousness. I'll simply say that if you want to read about the ONLY righteousness, read about JESUS in the Holy Bible. Our disagreement over your proclaimed self-righteousness does not diminish my love for you in Christ.

Love In Christ,
Tom

1 Timothy 6:4-6  He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself. But godliness with contentment is great gain.

BEP,
This isn't about agreeing or disagreeing.  You have insulted me by calling me a liar and now calling me self-righteous because I believe I'm not a liar.  Yes I am offended.

I need to go away from this forum for awhile because I find myself thinking uncharitable and unchristianlike thoughts.  I do not feel God's presence here and so I will depart.

Peace to you all,

Melody

 How come it's ok for you to call Bush a liar, but when someone says "we" (which includes you) have all lied at one time or another in our lives, that's somehow "insulting?" That is very self righteous my friend.

 When you stand before Jesus would you be willing to tell Him that you don't need to be forgiven for the sin of lying? remember, your eternal soul would be in jeopardy.

 If you truly have never lied, then you and cris would be the only two people on earth who are "perfect" in that regard.

 Your comparison between murder and lying is ridiculous my friend.

 Please don't get angry and leave. Sometimes these debates involve tough questions. As Christians we should be able to handle these situations without getting so angry, especially if we truly are not "guilty" of the sin in question.

Bronzesnake

Cris and melody,

just two quick simple questions.

1. Do you love the Lord?

2. Have you ever felt hate toward someone, just for a brief moment perhaps?

Liar------------One who KNOWINGLY and habitually utters falsehood.

Lie-------------A DELIBERATE misrepresentation of fact with intent to deceive.

Some children may deliberately lie, while others may just be ignorant or too immature to understand.  A lot depends on age.

I wasn't afraid to tell my parents the truth because I trusted them.  I remember being respected for telling the truth.  Guess I didn't want to lose that respect.  Nothing terrible ever happened to me when I told the truth, so lying isn't something I did.

I can say this, though.  I cheated at a game when I was about 9 or 10 years old.  Cheating is a form of lying, yes, and to this very day, I haven't forgotten it.  I have a bad case of "conscience".  When I said I didn't lie as a child, I should have clarified I was thinking about my immediate family. I never lied to family about anything, ever!  I didn't lie to teachers, either.  Because of my "conscience", I think I would remember if I deliberately lied to anyone else.  Anyway, when I've asked God to bring to memory any sin unconfessed, lying hasn't been one of them.

Truth still means everything to me.  I absolutely hate untruth.  I guess I've even hated the one telling the untruth.  It's difficult for me to separate the lie from the liar, sometimes (probably most of the time).  I do try, though!

cris

Yes-----------------to both questions!!!

I know.  I know.  If I answered yes to both questions, then I'm a liar.  I can't love God and hate another, even for a moment.  I'm supposed to hate the evil deed and not the person.  As I said in another post, it's difficult for me to separate the evil deed from the person.  If I repent of hating the person, then I love the Lord.  We serve a merciful God!!

cris

Amen!  ;)

Brothers and Sisters,

We all stand guilty before GOD. There are no innocents except JESUS. We have all already been found guilty, and Jesus paid the penalty for us. The law is a schoolmaster that brings knowledge of sin to the lost and points them to the only answer - JESUS.

We are all much more than just liars. If one wishes to consider the Law, violation of one is violation of all. The thought is also a violation, so it is obvious that no man can keep the Law, never has and never will. JESUS CHRIST is the only one who ever kept the Law.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 10:9-10 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

"Things will go forward with the losers or without them,"

Tom,
That is almost fifty percent of the electorate. That spells division without the losers and shaky unity with the losers.
 
I don't think America will go forward until we have a plan and a leader that undivides the country and works for the majority. Unfortunately neither presidential candidate seemed to fill that requirement IMO.

Let us pray that President Bush is in office because God wants good for America because her people are righteous and not punishment and judgement because they are an abomination in sin.

ollie