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I believe the official Protestant belief is that in order to gain salvation, you only need to have faith and believe in Jesus Christ.  I'm a little curious.  If someone believes Jesus is the Son of God, but all his life he does bad stuff, like murder, stealing, and lying, never thinking what he's doing is wrong, he can go to heaven?  Thinking along those lines, the most generous, loving, great Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, etc., would be forced to go to hell because they didn't believe Jesus was the Son of God, right?  That's certainly what it sounds like, and that certainly sounds wrong.  I personally believe that doing good deeds gets you into heaven, while faith and believing in Jesus Christ is just a large "bonus."

It sounds as if you don't believe the Bible is the Word of God. Do you?

If the answer is no then I suggest that you read the  "FAQ for Non Christians" in this section (Apologetics).

Yes, I am Christian, and I do believe in the Bible (except that I think Genesis isn't literal).

The subject here is not Genesis, so I will not go into that.

To gain salvation is more than just believing in Jesus Christ. It is also more than just being good.

Tit 3:5  Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Tit 3:6  Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
Tit 3:7  That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

There are actually steps to Salavation. First one must acknowledge that all have sinned:

Rom 3:23  For all have sinned, and come short of the glory
of God;

Then we must acknowledge and believe that Jesus Christ died for those sins.

Rom 5:8  But God commendeth his love toward us, in that,
while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

And to believe that if He had not that we are condemned to eternal damnation but through Jesus we can have life eternal.

Rom 6:23  For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God
is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

That if we ask  Jesus Christ into our heart professing Him as Saviour we will be saved.

Rom 10:9  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the
Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised
him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10  For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness;
and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Rom 10:13  For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord
shall be saved.


Jesus tells us that:

Rev 3:20  Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man
hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and
will sup with him, and he with me.

This is saying that He is knocking at the door to your heart all you have to do is to believe in these things and to ask Him in.

This is something that you must do through direct prayer to Him.

1Ti 2:5  For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;


 

But, say Hitler acknowledged he had sinned, that Jesus died for those sins, believed that Jesus offered salvation, and that Jesus was the Savior, would he go to heaven?  I'm not criticizing this (at least, as of yet), I'm just wondering about the finer points.

If he truly believed and truly repented of His sins.

Is there a certain way he has to repent?  Or could he just have said, "I'm sorry for what I did," immediately before he committed suicide?

 Pastor Roger don't waste your time with this guy. Just look at the rest of his posts here, he's no Christian.
This wannabe future astrophysicist is a troll - there's no doubt in my mind that there's no mind in his doubt.  :D :P

Troll alert - This is not a drill!  ;D

Bronzesnake

Act 8:22  Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.


If the point that you are getting at is can a person wait until just before they die, living and doing as they want to until then and then repent, then I say read this:

Luk 12:42  And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?
Luk 12:43  Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
Luk 12:44  Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
Luk 12:45  But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
Luk 12:46  The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
Luk 12:47  And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
Luk 12:48  But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.



1Jo 3:18  My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
1Jo 3:19  And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.
1Jo 3:20  For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
1Jo 3:21  Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.

I'll end the line of can a bad Christian go to heaven, and start the line of can a good non-Christian go to heaven.  Say, would Gandhi be able to go to heaven, or must you accept Jesus and your Savior?

I'll let the scriptures answer that for you as it is quite clear.


Mat 18:3  And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

LOL! Theres the root of your problem  Sleeker, You believe "in" the Bible, and you obviously dont believe "it"
True believers dont try to override Gods Word with human reasoning  ::)

That's the part I don't like.  I just don't believe the non-Christians are doomed to hell forever.  Now that I've gotten a clearer picture of the Protestant teachings, I don't feel the need to post in this thread anymore, unless I must respond to someone after me.
I also believe that true believers don't go around saying that he/she is a true believer, kind of like real war heros don't talk about war much.  Men are fallible.  Men wrote the Bible.  Not all of it will be true.  Some parts are exaggerations, some parts are morals stories, but that's just my interpretation of it.  You will obviously have a different interpretation of the Bible.

Bronze and Shylynne,

I agree with you both.

Ahh...  I must've missed this post.  I'm Christian, and have been my whole life.  I don't get what my wanting to be an astrophysicist has to do with anything.  I'm not trolling, I'm just trying to gain a better understanding of the Protestant beliefs.  I'm also trying to represent those who have no other representatives (like Mormonism in the other thread, of which I'm a part of, and evolution in a different thread, which I do believe, but I try to show how it fits with the Bible).

Edit: I do believe the description of this particular forum is "Defend the faith, or ask questions."  I'm defending my faith and others, and if you have a slightly different faith (since we're all Christians, so it won't be too different), you can defend your faith, and in this thread, I was just asking questions.  

 ??? ??? :-X :-X

Yes...?  Is there a problem with being a Christian evolutionist? (Hint: There isn't.)  I won't get into evidence for evolution, I'll just try to convince people that it is compatible.

 So, now your a Mormon huh?
There is only one Truth my friend and if you refuse to acknowledge Him and follow only Him you will condemn yourself to eternal fire. It's not pretty, but it's what God has warned us about my friend. There is only one Holy Bible - if you accept anything else, you will walk willingly into the pit of dispair - it will be of your own choosing my friend, so don't blame God, He has clearly warned us all, we either obey Him or we chose our own destiny...Hellfire. :'(

Told you he wasn't a Christian. :D

Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:  

Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Bronzesnake

Sleeker quote...

 Not of the Mormon sect huh?


 This is confusing. Are you saying that you are part of the Mormons, or are you trying to say you are a participant of the "mormon thread)?

 ??? ???

Bronzesnake

I said, "I'm also trying to represent those who have no other representatives (like Mormonism in the other thread, of which I'm a part of..."  Sorry if that was confusing, but that means I'm part of the thread.  I worded that poorly, but if you've listened to me in other posts, you would've already have known I'm not Mormon.
I thought only God knows the Truth.  We can't understand all of God's works.  Surely you're not comparing yourself to him?
Yet, you are wrong.

Bronze,


This was evident from the start. Christians wouldn't have asked  such questions. They would already know those answers.

All right, now you're just being ignorant and ignoring the facts.

I am not being ignorant. The truth is one of the questions you asked was about Salvation. A Christian would have known the answer because the answer is what it takes to become a Christian.

I was wondering about the finer points in the Protestant stance of salvation.  I got them.  The main thing I was wondering was if there is an exception to some non-Christians for salvation.  You said there was no exception.  I believe that's just discriminating against them, in fact, a form of bigotry in my opinion, and is used as a threat to try and convince conversion.

Anyways, I'm a Christian.  It's that simple.

No it isn't compatable, The Bible teaches creation. Evolution, and against forum rules. Which you need to read.

This is a warning
Moderator

Sleeker quote...

 You know...Maybe you'd better look toward some other profession...This astrophysicist thingy isn't looking too good my friend.

 God hasn't hid His truth from us my friend. He actually provided us with a really neat book...it's caled the BIBLE...you really should read it, it's quite good!  :P

Bronzesnake

I'm sorry that you feel that God is a bigot.

 

All I'll say is that is your interpretation of it, not mine.
All right, all right.  I've read the rules and no where does it specifically mention evolution, but instead mentions stuff about the Bible, which is subject to individual interpretation.  I'd add evolution in there somewhere, so that nobody else gets the idea that you can talk about it.  Anyways, I'll stop talking about evolution.
I actually think astrophysics is a great field for me to go into.
So, what's the truth about the meaning of life?
He is not, but if he bases salvation on being a Christian who believes in Jesus as the Son of God, or to a harsher degree, only Protestants, and not being inherently good, then I've lost some (not most) respect of him.

Sleeker quote...



 Do you get some kind of bizarre thrill coming to a Christian web site and pretending to be a Christian? It's painfully clear to all that you are a fraud my friend. You haven't got the first clue as to what Christianity is all about.

 On the other hand, I'd like to retract something I implied about you not being smart enough to be an astrophysicist...judging by the conclusions they draw such as the big bang theory, I'd say your intelligence level is low enough to include you into the profession.  :P

Bronzesnake

Denominations (Protestant or elsewise) is not the key here. Denominations is something that man has come up with, teaching various doctrines and not necessarily the Doctrine of Jesus Christ. The Doctrine of Jesus Christ is what counts. No matter how hard we try we, while in the flesh, cannot be good enough to enter into heaven.

Rom 3:10  As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Gal 2:16  Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

I said before It takes more than just believing in you must also believe on.

Act 16:31  And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.


I hope and pray for your sake that your respect for Him increases and not decreases.

I am sorry but I don't really understand what is going on in this thread. Quite a few harsh words are going on but the questions asked are those that I wonder about, as well. I wonder about many things, that is why I hope to learn here.

I, too, wonder about salvation, though not necesarrily how the Protestant faith sees it but Christianity in general. As can be seen in my other threads and I also wonder if one needs to be baptized to be truely reborn.

I, too, wonder about things like people being so good in life going to hell because they may not have knowledge of Jesus or, like me, doubt from time to time, or wonder if they are worthy. The things going on in the world sometimes make it so hard to believe in a loving God, and in Jesus. Not because I feel that God should stop all the horrible things, but because I feel that people get so used to all the darkness and hatred and such that is around them, that something so good seems so hard to believe.

I admit I doubt, and don't know the answers to so many questions. I admit that sometimes I find my faith shakey because I fear I am doing things wrong in my faith so God and Jesus won't hear me, or sometimes even wonder if God does exist, though deep down I know He does..but still..(I hope I make some sort of sense).

And as for the Bible, I am ashamed to say that I can not make much sense of some of the quotes even, because of the way that they were written. How to find the right message when struggling with the words as they are? And there are so many different versions and translations of the Bible too, and people saying there are lost chapters, and what might they say?

All in all, Sleeker is not the only one with questions and doubts and simply not knowing things. I am sure many of us are looking for the truth, seeking knowledge. I know that I am.

Therefore I cannot understand the harsh words in this thread...

 The best way to learn is to find a Bible believing Church and ask specific questions of your pastor.

 Please ask specific questions here as well, but the overriding final word should come from a pastor, in person, at a Bible believing Church.

Bronzesnake

It is human nature to doubt things. Even Thomas, one of the 12 Apostles, doubted that Jesus arose from the dead and had to see with his own eyes and to actually feel of His wounds.

I agree with Bronzesnake that the best way to get your answers is one on one with a Bible believing Pastor at a Bible believeing church.

If you are not comfortable doing that or it just is not possible for you to do I would be glad to answer any of your questions that I can. If a person is honestly seeking answers, I am happy to help them find those answers in the Bible and to understand them.

Kittiara,

It isn't just this thread, rather it is every thread Sleeker has become involved with since his or her short arrival. He or she and several others made a specific point of violating the forum rules after repeated warnings, and they are gone. You don't see the deleted posts, and you might not recognize the modified posts. They were a gang of trolls, and there has been a magic act - They disappeared!

The moderators here are not required to do constant babysitting with those who are determined to violate the forum rules after multiple warnings. This little gang tried pretty hard to get banned, and they succeeded.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Titus 2:13  Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

I am the way, the truth and the light.  No one comes to the Father but through Me.
--John 14:6

This is the foundation for what a Christian is.  I have been on other boards where they think a Christian is anyone who tries to be like Jesus.  It's not enough to just try to "be" like Him and walk in his footsteps.  You must "believe" in Him and that He is the only way to salvation.

Anything less and it's not Christianity but rather some other religion someone made up because it was easier than trying to follow the Lord.

Kittiara,
I wasted too many years running from God because I refused to believe in a God who would send a "good" person to hell just because they had not accepted Christ while letting an evil person who repented and accepted the Lord into heaven.

I can't honestly say I still understand that although there are times when I feel that understanding is "just there" on the edge of my consciousness but just out of my grasp.  What I have done is to accept the Lord as my Saviour and to trust in His wisdom, compassion and mercy.

As harsh as it sounds, He has given everyone the opportunity to come to Him and if they choose to turn a deaf ear through pride or arrogance, then by his gift of free will, they have made their choice.  

My husband and most of his family are atheists and they are the most ethical, honest people I have ever known.  It breaks my heart that this is not enough for their salvation, but I have faith in God that he will give them every opportunity to see the error of their ways.  It probably breaks His heart even more.

Oh and btw....those who have never heard the word of God and those who lived prior to our Lord's time on earth are taken care of.  I do not have the verse right now, but I believe it's in Romans or Hebrews.

If I can suggest a book, Rick Warren's "Living a Purpose Driven Life" is an excellent book.  It reminds us why we're here and brings all of this into perspective.

Many thanks to the people who answered my post in this thread. I hope that I did not come across in an offensive way - I sure did not mean to.

I am, indeed, honestly trying to learn. I know that when it comes to God and Christianity I am very much a novice, there is so much that I do not know (and I bet that I will never stop learning).

Pastor Roger, many thanks for your kindness. And Melody, many thanks for your sincere and kind reply. I, too, know many atheists and they are wonderful, giving and caring people. I know how you must feel about your husband and his family. It breaks my heart as well to think of all these wonderful people running the risk of going to hell.

Sometimes it is indeed so hard to believe God loves us. I think that that is what so many people struggle with, and that that causes the lack of belief. Because of being unable to believe in something so good, like I said in my previous post.

I am grateful that God loves us and I am grateful for Jesus, and what he has given us.

Quote - Oh and btw....those who have never heard the word of God and those who lived prior to our Lord's time on earth are taken care of.  I do not have the verse right now, but I believe it's in Romans or Hebrews.

Yes, I remember that now, and that is a comforting thought *smiles*

Thanks so much again,

Kit

Just in case anyone came in here for a straight foward answer.
Faith in Jesus gets you in not deeds.
But if you really have faith in Jesus you will do good deeds.
If you don't do good deeds (at all)then you are not truly saved.
Your good deeds don't get you in cause the theife that died on the cross beside Jesus had no time to do a good deed, but Jesus told him he was getting in!!!!

Sleeker:   You said "I believe the official Protestant belief is that in order to gain salvation, you only need to have faith and believe in Jesus Christ.  I'm a little curious.  If someone believes Jesus is the Son of God, but all his life he does bad stuff, like murder, stealing, and lying, never thinking what he's doing is wrong, he can go to heaven?  Thinking along those lines, the most generous, loving, great Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, etc., would be forced to go to hell because they didn't believe Jesus was the Son of God, right?  That's certainly what it sounds like, and that certainly sounds wrong.  I personally believe that doing good deeds gets you into heaven, while faith and believing in Jesus Christ is just a large "bonus." "

 I will tell you what Martin Luther said,  he said that though you commit rape a thousand times a day and as many murders you shall surely not  lose your salvation.

You also asked "But, say Hitler acknowledged he had sinned, that Jesus died for those sins, believed that Jesus offered salvation, and that Jesus was the Savior, would he go to heaven?  I'm not criticizing this (at least, as of yet), I'm just wondering about the finer points. "

Hitler was only following Luther's instructions on dealing with the Jews as set out in his work "On the Jews and Their Lies" but in line with Luther's teaching he would have been ok.

p.s. how do you quote  on this forum?

Mathurin,

That would obviously be the opposite of what the Holy Bible clearly teaches. You good works will get you absolutely nothing. The same would be true of any righteousness that you think you might have, absolutely nothing. You would be lost without Jesus - plain and simple. If you want to use some book as your authority for such a statement, it won't be the Holy Bible.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 6:23  For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

I Peter 3:18  For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

1Corinthians 1:18  For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Romans 10:9-10 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

John 5:24  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Colossians 2:8-10  Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

Romans 5:1-2  Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Colossians 1:12-14  Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

Ephesians 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Galatians 2:16  Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

John 3:16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

2 Corinthians 5:17-18  Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

Sorry, I'm still trying to figure out how to use your quote button.  I was trying to quote what sleeker said on the front page.

Blackeyedpeas:  However, I do agree with Sleeker somewhat on this point.  I also see why you feel the way you do.  I think that faith is the key that unlocks the door, hope opens the door, and charity gets you through(all done with faith of course).  The Bible clearly teaches that baptism is necessary and if you take a faith alone stance it seems to contradict that teaching and the natural logic that Lucifer had a far more lucid belief in God than we ever can, and look at him.   The Bible does say that faith is necessary but it also lists others, and I am not about to say that I can mark out the others and stick with one.  One must accept the whole Bible.  

Mathurin,

I see that I misunderstood your first post in this thread, and I apologize for that.

The moment a person accepts Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour, they are baptized by the Holy Spirit. I really don't wish to debate a second baptism, as there are numerous threads already on the forum that have this subject argued from just about every perspective.

There are also numerous existing threads on the forum about good works. You can refer to those for massive amounts of material. I will simply say that good works don't save you, and good works don't keep you saved. Good works are simply a portion of a Christian's testimony before men and acts of appreciation to a loving Lord and Saviour.

Reference the quoting, I think that I just read a reply to you on this subject in another thread, but I'll repeat the basics. When you want to reply to a message and quote part of the message, you hit the quote command button. The forum software copies the entire post and puts it in a quote box. If you don't wish to quote the entire post, simply drag your mouse over the part you don't want and hit the delete key. You would then want to start your reply beneath the quoted block. See the next post for some basics on this command and others.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 31:3  For thou art my rock and my fortress; therefore for thy name's sake lead me, and guide me.

Forum Commands Help:

There are many forum commands that are pretty easy to use once you try them once (i.e. bold, italic, underline, font size, font color, etc.).

Let me give you a few example. First, I must replace "[]" with "{}" so that you can see the example. The actual command must be done with "[]" and the forum software automatically uses that when you press one of the command buttons. Some people type the commands themselves. The material you want the command to work on must be placed direct center between the beginning of the command and the ending of the command.

The quote command button is used when you wish to reply to a message and use a quote from it. You can also copy the portion of the post you wish to quote and do it manually.You want the material quoted to be between the beginning quote command and the ending quote command. The same is true for all of the forum commands.

{quote}Quoted{/quote}  becomes below

{b}Bold{/b} becomes below
Bold

{i}Italics{/i} becomes below
Italics

{u}Underline{/u} becomes below
Underline

{color=Red}Red{/color} becomes below
Red

{size=6}Size{/size} becomes below
Size

Here's a hot clickable URL address that works as an example:

{url}http://forums.christiansunite.com/{/url} becomes below:
http://forums.christiansunite.com/ (http://forums.christiansunite.com/)

Here's a non-existent email address that would work if such an address existed.In fact, it should open your email program and start a new message to this address.

{email}joeblow@somewhere.com{/email} becomes below:
joeblow@somewhere.com

Here's a real example of using a graphic:

{center}{img}http://www.sirinet.net/~blkidps/welcome.gif{/img}{/center} becomes below:


Please note that the graphic must be on the Internet with a permanent and real address 24 hours a day for this to work. It won't work if it is simply on your computer.

Thanks for the info, that was very explanatory.