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Let's see if I can do this again in a much clearer way since someone already misread my question.

If we must obey one of the old testament laws, why do we not have to obey all of them.  Someone told me that it is because some are moral laws and some are cultural laws.  Sorry....I'm forbidden to mention the specific law in question so I can't be any more specific than that.

However, if this is true, how do you decide which laws are moral and which are cultural?  

I have found that some old rules are replaced.  Some examples:  I don't have the exact location in the bible, but in the Old Testament the Lord had animals that if people touched or ate it would defile them, but in the New Testament Paul says that we can eat anything.  Also in the Old Testament things had to be done a certain way and you had to present yourself and your offerings to God in a certain way for them to be acceptable.  Now sence Jesus came and died on the cross for us it made us able to come to God boldly. I don't know why you would be forbidden to ask a specific question, but hope that I helped some way.  Also I have a hint that you might be a little caught up in the law.  Don't do that.  Yes it is important to try to please God, but don't go over board.  God has created these rules for us to follow because He wants us to see how sinful we are and realize how much we need Him.  Check out Romans.  Believe me I can be a rule keeping nut.  I just haven't figured out how much is healthy and when I go overboard because if you go overboard it knocks you away from God because you are constantly to afraid to come to Him.

Love in Christ,
Kris

What happens if the particular law isn't mentioned in the NT?  Are you saying you think that means then we go by what the OT says?


No, I'm trying to get a handle on why some people use the OT as a reason for considering something sinful, but pick and choose which parts of the OT they use.  This seems contradictory and leaves me more confused than ever.

No, I'm trying to get a handle on why some people use the OT as a reason for considering something sinful, but pick and choose which parts of the OT they use.  

When you are reading the Old Testament, Melody, you are looking into the mind of God.


This seems contradictory and leaves me more confused than ever.

Precisely.  "...things into which angels long to look."

The angels, Satan along with them, expected God to act according to His own Old Testament law.

You are exactly right.  Indeed, by Old Testament law, we should all be dead now, as the Flood demonstrated, and as is our desserts:  "...the soul that sins, shall surely die."

It is exactly a contradiction, because How can a "just" God let any of us then go free??

And why are we even "alive", in this body of death, today?

Ok...if it's possible to be even more confused..... :-\

The Bible, doesn't always speak, plainly, like a telephone directory, or a technical manual, Melody.

In the NT, Jesus tells the disciples He speaks in parables for a specific reason.

Also, the OT is, in many places, an enigma.  Though it is the most published book in the world.

But if it were spelled out clearly, would we even read it.

And Paul in the NT acknowledges that, "Behold, I tell you a mystery..."

Which is part of the beauty.

But if it seems in the OT like you're cherry picking to support only what you want it to support, perhaps think again.

Perhaps the substance of what you are interpreting is "spiritually discerned"?

How do you know that something is right, or wrong?

Because you can see that it is.

That is what is meant, in numerous places, by "walking in the Spirit".

Do you have disobedience anywhere in your own life?

Then likely that spiritual discernment will leave you, leaving you to figure things out on your own.

(Romans 1:24)  "Therefore God gave them up..."

Obedience to God brings us back into a right relationship with Him, from which then He gives us His Spirit, which brings with it that discernment.

You know that something is wrong, then, because "you can see that it is".   Not because of some law somewhere(although that may indeed be there somewhere confirming what you already know...).

Interesting choice of words -- cherry picking.  That's what those on the other side of the fence have been calling it.  Hmmmm.....

Melody,

Read Romans. There are no contradictions or confusion. This is the dispensation of Grace, and many of the same sins from the Old Testament are mentioned again, including what you can't and will not be allowed to discuss here.

I gave you the answer, so I'll give it to you again. Homosexuality is an abomination in the eyes of God both in the Old Testament and the New Testament. The only difference is that we are no longer commanded to stone them to death. Your point will not be made or accomplished here. There is no pulpit for that agenda here, and there won't be one.

Forget about someone who gave you some technical mumbo jumbo about sin and read what the Bible says about it. Romans will do just fine for a start. It's as plain, blunt, and to the point as you can get. There is no confusion at all except what the devil wants to create.

Moderator

Again...you are completely misunderstanding me!  I do not want to discuss that topic, nor am I trying to make a point about it!  It was merely the most obvious of what people are pulling as a sin from the OT while apparently overlooking others.

My question was...and still is....what determination is made when deciding what to keep from the OT....because some things are not.  I *have* read Romans.  It did not answer my question.

BEP,
You are, and have been, making the assumption that I have some agenda I'm trying to push on this topic.  Please leave off your preconceived notions which this word seems to trigger.  I don't give a rat's toenail about what people think of that particular topic.  I do not want to talk about that particular topic (how many times and ways can I say that?).  I am merely trying to understand the Bible.  

There are many things that I find contradictory about the Bible and I am trying to resolve them because if the Bible is the Word of God then there should not be any contradictions.   If the contradictions cannot be explained, then that poses a problem for me.  Hence my question...and perhaps my answer as well.

There is no longer a need to respond to this thread.  I reread Romans this morning in the KJV....and am a little stunned that the answer is so clear where the other 4 versions I've read are murky.  Either that or God just hit me over the head with the Bible....which He's done before when I seem to be a bit dull witted.


Thank you to those who responded though.

Sister Melody,

Please forgive me if I misunderstood. That topic was in the original post, and we have had an untold number of people almost determined to discuss that sin and others as being acceptable behavior in the New Testament or because Jesus died on the cross for us. Jesus Christ did die on the cross for us and will forgive us our sins if we confess and repent.

Many other portions of the New Testament bluntly state that Jesus didn't die for us so we could continue in open and on purpose sin.

Again, I apologize if I misunderstood. Maybe you were thinking about some of the nearly 700 laws of the Old Testament that were given by men or given for a time and a people before Jesus walked this earth in the form of a man and died for us. Many of those 700 laws no longer apply. They involved cleansing rituals, burnt offerings, animal sacrifices, and many other laws that Jesus fulfilled completely and forever on the CROSS.

Love In Christ,
Tom

John 4:14  But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Thank you.  That did answer part of my question and the KJV Romans also clarified.    :)

There are many things that I find contradictory about the Bible and I am trying to resolve them because if the Bible is the Word of God then there should not be any contradictions.  If the contradictions cannot be explained, then that poses a problem for me.  Hence my question...and perhaps my answer as well.


Again, if it were all spelled out, clear as a telephone directory, would we even consult it?

Or perhaps more importantly, would it be too strong for us.

Don't we have to have things watered down, diluted, put in any number of different ways(how many prophets, major and minor, are there in the OT, spelling out basically the same message, in any number of ways...??), in parable form, in obscurity, just so we'll try to figure them out?

A God coming down and offering Himself up for His own rebellious creation, in the name of nothing more than "love", is revolutionary, unthinkable, to say the least.  Is there any other "god", in all the pantheon of human mythology or theology, of such a nature - or story?

Could that same God be expected to spell out to his creation something only in stark clarity, or would he, or should he, do so in some degree of obscurity, veiled indirectness, etc.?

After all, His birth, the Christmas manger, was in obscurity and - no room in the inn.

Perhaps, however, on a slightly different note, who am I, to dictate to God, that His inspired Word to me, should only be to me as I think fit?  And who am I, to decide, precisely what is, or what isn't, a contradiction, in the first place?

Could the appearance of a contraction in the Old or New Testament possibly mean my own inadequacy to understand what is really being said, or is it always just God's fault?

Or, perhaps more to the point, is the burden of proof as to God's acceptability, always up to Him, to demonstrate to me?

And if that is true, then aren't I really the one who is God, and Him really just my inadequate servant, since He's failed to iiron out or remove what to me must certainly be obvious contradictions in the Bible?

Or is any of this line of reasoning unfair?

That's cause the KJV is best.   ;)

Melody,

People do pick and choose, you are correct in that, the reason it is confusing is because we are not under Old Testament Law, not one bit.  The Law including the 10 Commandments are part of God's covenant with the sons of Israel.  Gentiles are not a part of that.

You may not want to bother going through this whole thing, but others may so I put this explanation here.

Look at the Exodus 31:12-18. God speaks there of the sabbath as a sign of the covenant between him and the children of Israel. It is also where he gives the 10 Commandments to Moses. They are both part of the covenant between God and the children of Israel. The Gentiles do not have a part in them. Check it again in Exodus 34:28 notice the words of the covenant, those are the 10 Commandments. The were put into the Ark of the Covenant. So the Words of the Covenant were kept in the Ark of the Covenant. A covenant between God and the Jews, those decended from Israel.

So what happened? Well as you know, people could not keep the 10 Commandments, they could not keep the Levitical law. They broke the covenant with God. Jer 11 is all about the breaking of the covenant and the judgement that is coming on the Jews. This goes on and on until Jer 31:31-32 where we first hear of the new covenant. In Jerimiah is also where we learn that God will raise up a rightous branch from king David. It was talking about Jesus, but the Jews thought it would be a king like David who would lead them here on earth when he came.

So now the new covenant one not of laws but of grace. God didn't write the commandments on stone but on our hearts. We are to love, first God, then man, God above all things, and our neighbor as ourselves. And we are included in this covenant not just the house of Israel. Romans 11 gives an explanation of this. The book of Hebrews spends a lot of time, especially in the 8, 9, and 10 chapters.

Now if you write a new contract, a new covenant with someone, what happens to the old? It is no longer in effect, the new superceeds it. The old is no longer recognized in court because you have entered into a new one. The new covenant is not just for the house of Israel, but for all.  Much of the New Testament is about the inclusion of the Greeks into God's new covenant.

So you might say, what of the 10 Commandments, do we not still obey them. The answer is not as such. We are to show love, not follow the Law. Now mostly it might look as though we follow the law, but we do not. It is confusing because if you show love, much of the foundational laws would be upheld, but not as law. Would you show love by murdering your neighbor, would you show love by taking his wife? No, of course not. So it might be said look they obey the Commandment not to murder, but we do not obey the Commandment not to murder, we obey the Commandment to love our neighbor. Love goes far beyond the Law.

The question of do we need to become Jews and obey the laws has been with us from the very start of the church. The first Jerusalem council in Acts 15 was just over this question. Galations deals strongly with the question.

People often quote part of the Law to show that something is "wrong" but themselves do not uphold the Law.  We are told in the New Testament that if we put ourselves under one part, we are responsible to the whole thing.  You are indeed correct that people pick and choose, but that is not Biblical.  If you pick one part, you pick it all.  It is saddest when people use the Law against those who do not believe, yet if the unbeliever checks the Law in the Bible he sees that Christians themselves do not live under the Law.  It makes all of Christianity appear as the religion of hypocrites.  

I hope that this explanation is clear to you.
Marv

Marv,
As usual your posts are very clear and I thank you for the response.  It clears up some questions, but more arise.

Melody

well in the old ,HE was dealing with the flesh mainly .Now in the new ?He is dealing with the spirit ..But HE really even went one step farther ?He has made us new creatures ?like HIMSELF ?We are to COUNT OUR SELVES DEAD in CHRIST JESUS .There for we no longer live unto our selves .But HE LIVES THOUGH US .Also we are too walk in our SPIRIT .Led by HIS SPIRIT .Then we CAN NOT SIN .Also in the new testament ,Which HE IS ! We no longer walk by sight ,But by FAITH .FAITH IN THE HOLY SPIRIT to teach and lead us . But these things can not be believed in the flesh lead mind .But must be3 revealed by the HOLY SPIRIT .Because as with all things of the HOLY SPIRIT .HE alone reveals them .And even when recieve them ?Most of the time we do see them at the time ?we see the results .except for born again .We do not see it ?But we know it for what it is .It is something that you never forget .it is in TRUTH a NEW BIRTH . JUST AS PROFOUND .It is spiritual .
Also uin the new testament ,We see some things are talking about the flesh ?
some are talking about the spirit ?
Some are talking about the soul or mind .Which is the same
So we may get confused .as one may say We are sinners or if you say you have not sinned ,you are a lair
Another says ?you can not sin  or be perfect or be HOLY as I am  
So unless we understand .What part of our being this is toward ?We will not understand ?
Because we are spirit 1st
Soul 2nd or mind if you will
3rd flesh ,Which it will be replaced with a body like our LORDS
You do not need to accept these thoughts ,but pray about it .ASK the HOLY SPIRIT ?LOVE IN OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST just me

Hi Melody,

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. I think that these articles will be of help to you if you care to read them.

“Which Law are You Under?”
http://www.nlbchapel.org/which%20law.htm

“Subverters of Souls”
http://www.nlbchapel.org/Subverters.htm

God bless,
Pilgrim

Actually I think if it were spelled out clearly there would be no question as to our faith. Instead, the bible is interpreted and reinterpreted which is why there is so much confusion among the MANY denominations.
I find no beauty in arguing with other Christians over what this or that means.  :(

We know evil from righteousness .if we want to lie to our self ?we can .But GOD put the rules in our heart .we were made to not be bound to anything evil .satan has tried to say in love .we can permit evil with in our homes and lifes .this is a lie .
Any sin is evil to the LORD .one evil is no better than another .
Sin is a killer .it destorys .LOVE does not let sin in . We know what is evil ,what is not .if it is not narmal ?it is sin .The bible gives a list .

So you are saying it would not be better if all Christians interpreted the bible the same way and all had a consistant message to share?  ???

Good Points CrystalClear, Silver, and Brother Gary,

I think that part of the key issue here is what issues we contend for harshly or fervently. Let's say there are two discussions: one about how to be saved and one about Biblical directions about what you can eat or not eat. I will contend fervently on the salvation topic, but not the what you can eat topic.

There are many other like issues that can cause divisions between brothers and sisters in Christ. On non-Salvation issues, I would simply hope that Christians can and should discuss differences only in Christian love. We do manage to have many very interesting discussions here without hate or malice. I could list dozens of Biblical issues that brothers and sisters in Christ should not go to war with each other over.

There are instructions in the Holy Bible about how we are to treat our brothers and sisters in Christ. There are appropriate times and issues to reprove or rebuke, and there are varying levels and methods when this time or issue arises. Very generally, it should be done in kindness and love, and only sharply when blasphemy or some other major issue is involved. I did say GENERALLY. There is obviously a time and purpose for being sharp, blunt, and hard. Lastly, I would say that Christians should pray about these times and issues and ask God for guidance about what to say and how to say it when dealing with another brother or sister in Christ. If you are dealing with the devil, instead of another brother or sister in Christ, that would be a completely different topic.

I hope and pray this was a good two cents worth.

Love In Christ,
Tom

I Peter 1:18-19  Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

 :) AMEN blackeyedpeas!!! AMEN!!

I agree ,SAlvation?I believe WE MUST HAVE THE NEW BIRTH .

Well said Brother, and I add my hearty AMEN!!  As I am wont to do, I just thought I'd add the apostle Paul's take on what you just said...


You see, Paul begs these to ladies to agree.  Interestingly enough, he doesn't talk about them agreeing on whatever they had been fighting about.  Rather, that they be of the same mind in the Lord.  And then he points them all to two truths:

1.  Help them labor in the Gospel.
2.  Agree or disagree, their names are in the Book of Life.

This I think this is key.  We can get so upity about doctrines, when the truth of the Gospel of Christ is so much more needy in this world today.  We can turn our noses up at that church because of it's music, or that church because of the version they use.  Shame.  Cause if they claim Christ and He claims them, then their names are written in the same Book, and we need to help them labor in the Gospel of Christ.

Good message Tom!  Thanks for sharing.   :)

AMEN ALLINALL!

Brother, I love to read about and think about the life and ministry of Paul. He had such a life of contrasts and struggles that his message to Christians today is just as valid now as it was then. It's amazing, but REAL, that the Holy Bible is timeless in teaching and instruction for Christians. In Paul, we see a man with tremendous trials of all kinds, and we also see a humble man who always gloried in Christ and not himself. Paul expounds on his weaknesses and failures so that we can reflect on our own lives and see that everything good in us is in and through Christ.

I was just thinking and praying - LORD, give me a willing heart that will yield completely to your purpose. LORD, however unworthy I am, use me however YOU WILL. LORD, help me to do and say the things that will be pleasing to YOU and bring Glory only to YOU. LORD, I ask these things in the precious name of JESUS, my Lord and Saviour forever.  Amen.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 119:11  Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.

Amen and amen.   :)

Amen.