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Theology => Apologetics => Topic started by: Sulfurdolphin on December 08, 2004, 01:07:28 PM



Title: Luke 23:43
Post by: Sulfurdolphin on December 08, 2004, 01:07:28 PM


As i was reading this passage, i decided to do an etymology, search on the word "Paradise".

The word "Paradise" is the word Gan (Garden) Eden (Eden).

Both the Greek and Hebew compliment Paradise as Gan Eden.

Yeshua promised the thief that he would be with God, today in Gan Eden. When the thief and Yeshua both died the thief spirit went into Sheol. Remeber Sheol had two compartments one for the wicked and one for the righteous. When the thief died He went to Gan Eden (paradise) the compartement in Sheol. This makes me question that i have never thought about before was this compartment in sheol were the righteous were in was it simliar to heaven?

In the King James Key Word Study Bible/ The Greek Dictionary of the New Testament number 3857 Paradise of Oriental or. {comp. 6508} a park i.e. (spec.) An Eden (place of future happiness "paradise". {6508} Paradise of for. or.; a park, forest, orchard. Hebrew And Chaldee Dictionary.

Even Amazingly in 2 Corinthians 12:4 is Gan Eden but this text is of the future that had already happened because Christ crucifixion and resurrection and the resurrection of the saints in the OT and NT prior to the death of the Messiah.

This Gan Eden or Paradise is synonymous with the third heaven were those believers who have died are even now at home with the Lord.

This is the First Resurrection of the OT and NT Believers of the Messiah. Matthew 27:51 Then behold the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom and the eath quaked and the rocks were split and the graves were opened and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

I believe the Resurrected believers, ascended with Yeshua to heaven in Luke 24:50,51.

Michael


Title: Re:Luke 23:43
Post by: asaph on December 30, 2004, 12:49:55 AM


As i was reading this passage, i decided to do an etymology, search on the word "Paradise".

The word "Paradise" is the word Gan (Garden) Eden (Eden).

Both the Greek and Hebew compliment Paradise as Gan Eden.

Yeshua promised the thief that he would be with God, today in Gan Eden. When the thief and Yeshua both died the thief spirit went into Sheol. Remeber Sheol had two compartments one for the wicked and one for the righteous. When the thief died He went to Gan Eden (paradise) the compartement in Sheol. This makes me question that i have never thought about before was this compartment in sheol were the righteous were in was it simliar to heaven?

In the King James Key Word Study Bible/ The Greek Dictionary of the New Testament number 3857 Paradise of Oriental or. {comp. 6508} a park i.e. (spec.) An Eden (place of future happiness "paradise". {6508} Paradise of for. or.; a park, forest, orchard. Hebrew And Chaldee Dictionary.

Even Amazingly in 2 Corinthians 12:4 is Gan Eden but this text is of the future that had already happened because Christ crucifixion and resurrection and the resurrection of the saints in the OT and NT prior to the death of the Messiah.

This Gan Eden or Paradise is synonymous with the third heaven were those believers who have died are even now at home with the Lord.

This is the First Resurrection of the OT and NT Believers of the Messiah. Matthew 27:51 Then behold the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom and the eath quaked and the rocks were split and the graves were opened and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

I believe the Resurrected believers, ascended with Yeshua to heaven in Luke 24:50,51.

Michael
Michael,
Why did'nt David ascend to heaven after the resurrection?
Acts 2
34For David is not ascended into the heavens, but he himself saith, `The LORD said unto my Lord, "Sit Thou on My right hand


Title: Re:Luke 23:43
Post by: asaph on December 31, 2004, 04:35:48 AM


As i was reading this passage, i decided to do an etymology, search on the word "Paradise".

The word "Paradise" is the word Gan (Garden) Eden (Eden).

Both the Greek and Hebew compliment Paradise as Gan Eden.

Yeshua promised the thief that he would be with God, today in Gan Eden. When the thief and Yeshua both died the thief spirit went into Sheol. Remeber Sheol had two compartments one for the wicked and one for the righteous. When the thief died He went to Gan Eden (paradise) the compartement in Sheol. This makes me question that i have never thought about before was this compartment in sheol were the righteous were in was it simliar to heaven?

In the King James Key Word Study Bible/ The Greek Dictionary of the New Testament number 3857 Paradise of Oriental or. {comp. 6508} a park i.e. (spec.) An Eden (place of future happiness "paradise". {6508} Paradise of for. or.; a park, forest, orchard. Hebrew And Chaldee Dictionary.

Even Amazingly in 2 Corinthians 12:4 is Gan Eden but this text is of the future that had already happened because Christ crucifixion and resurrection and the resurrection of the saints in the OT and NT prior to the death of the Messiah.

This Gan Eden or Paradise is synonymous with the third heaven were those believers who have died are even now at home with the Lord.

This is the First Resurrection of the OT and NT Believers of the Messiah. Matthew 27:51 Then behold the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom and the eath quaked and the rocks were split and the graves were opened and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

I believe the Resurrected believers, ascended with Yeshua to heaven in Luke 24:50,51.

Michael
Michael,
In 2 Corinthians 12:4, which you referred to above, Paul was "caught up" to paradise. In verse 2 of the same chapter he said he was "caught up" to the third heaven. These two references could be speaking of two different places. The conjunction "and" in verse 4 would allow this interpretation.

2 I knew a man in Christ more than fourteen years ago (whether in the body I cannot tell, or whether out of the body I cannot tell -- God knoweth). Such a one was caught up to the third Heaven.

  3And I knew such a man (whether in the body or out of the body I cannot tell -- God knoweth),

  4and how he was caught up into Paradise, and heard unspeakable words which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

"Caught up" in the Strongs Concordance reads as follows:

726   //  arpazw  //  harpazo   //  har-pad'-zo  //  

from a derivative of   138  ; TDNT - 1:472,80; v

AV - catch up 4, take by force 3, catch away 2, pluck 2,
catch 1, pull 1; 13

1) to seize, carry off by force
2) to seize on, claim for one's self eagerly
3) to snatch out or away


Therefore the word can mean to catch away (not necessarily up). Paradise does not have to be "up" but could be (and I beleive it is) a different place than the third heaven.

When people die they go to Sheol (Hebrew) or Hades (Greek).
This place has two compartments, one for the lost and the other for the righteous. The part for the righteous is called paradise. This is where they remain until the resurrection. The Bible states that David had not ascended to heaven after Jesus was raised from the dead. He is still in paradise. There is no reason to beleive that paradise was elevated to the third heaven at the resurrection of Jesus, otherwise David would have ascended there. Do you see what I am saying?
Ephesians 4 says that Jesus descended into the lower parts of the earth and that he ascended to heaven. Why? The text says: 10 He that descended is the same who also ascended up far above all heavens, that He might fill all things.)
The answer is that "He might fill all things". Jesus now fills hades and earth and heaven with His presence. When we die we go to be with the Lord in paradise, not the third heaven.
As for those who were raised from the dead after His resurrection, the Bible is not clear what state they were in or what became of them. So we cannot be dogmatic about them. It may be that they were raised as Lazarus was, without a glorified body, that is, a mortal body. We just do not have enough information. Some things we will simply have to leave in the Lords hands.
I hope you do not take offence. I am simply trying to put the scriptures together and make sense of them.
Blessings,
asaph