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I just thought I would put this out there for discussion.  Is the US in prophecy?  Is it possible that what may be the greatest and most influencial nation on earth at the time of the end would have been overlooked in prophecy?  If you feel the US is in prophecy where do you see it and what role do you see it playing?

I personally don’t believe America is overlooked.   Which leaves the burning question, why we are not mentioned in prophecy?   My conclusion is, either America is destroyed, or crippled to the point that we are no longer what we are now.    The only logical conclusions one could draw from that is, by a war, terrorist act, natural disaster, or possibly the rapture.   Knowing what 911 did to the country alone, imagine how the rapture could impact our nation and world power structure.   All of these are certainly possibilities though.    One thing seems clear…America cannot remain what it is today if a Revived Roman empire is to become the powerful worldly kingdom that treads on and destroys the rest of the world as mentioned in Daniel.

There are many people who have tried to place us in prophetic passages, but none of them are quite clear, at least to me.   The biggest argument is that America is somehow mystery babylon, but this does not add up to me for many reasons.    I don’t have time to elaborate on this as I am currently at work.    

No doubt this thread will spark some contrasting views , but  mine for the moment remains that America will be crippled by either war, some unforeseen event, or possibly the Rapture.   I am hoping for the latter.

Grace and Peace!

 :)  greetings in our Lord
i'm new to the board.  this discussion is hugely interesting. i'm grateful for the information contained here as well as being able to talk with believers in the Lord.
     thankyou.
i'm with you 2nd Tim on many of your views.  

Hi xaoz, welcome to CU.   Yes this is a very interesting topic for me too.  Bible prophecy has always been a big facination to me, even as a child.    Glad to have you here with us!

Grace and Peace!

Mar 16:15  And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.


Hi Tim nice to see ya again  :P

(http://www.rr-bb.com/images/smilies/rapture.gif)

thankyou for the warm welcome :) - will be reading!  

Good point 2T considering there are so many christians in America if we were all to vanish are country would fizzle and die. Oh yes and a big welcome to xaoz.

A rapture would be devestating to America.   Some Leaders, as well as numerous citizens would vanish from the face of the earth.  I suspect there might even an opening in the white house.  ;)  (no doubt that comment will raise some ire).   I sure hope its the rapture and not one of the others.   It would answer a lot of questions about America in Bible prophecy...or rather a lack there of.

Grace and Peace!

Not from me, I agree. Chances are an opening would happen. (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v605/DreamWeaver000/edeagle2.gif)

Brothers and Sisters,

I agree with 2nd Timothy and Dreamweaver. I don't see America in Bible Prophecy about the end of this age. I've seen the opinions that America is Babylon, and I disagree with that completely. It simply doesn't fit, not even close.

Most of the older people here have watched the massive erosion of values and morals in America, especially over the last 50 years. However, that erosion, however great, does not indicate America is Babylon. The in detail physical descriptions in the Holy Bible do not match America.

I don't want to turn this into a debate about the timing of the RAPTURE, but I would say with certainty that America will be a terrible place when the Christians are CAUGHT UP, gone, and the GREAT RESTRAINER is removed.

So, what will happen to America? I think that would be a guess, nothing that I can see supported by Scripture. My guess is that America will cease to be a super power and possibly be destroyed. Another guess: it's far too late for America to start hating Israel and join the rest of the world. An entire generation and parts of two more have been carefully taught to hate America in most parts of the world, and that includes some we call allies.

Regardless of varying opinions, the end times of this age will play out at God's appointed time. No power will be able to stop it, and all Bible prophecy will be fulfilled to the letter. The earth richly deserves the terrible wrath to come.

I know that what I'm about to say is a point of contention among many Christians, but I don't wish to debate it. Christians won't be here for the great wrath to come.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 5:21  That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

[Christians won't be here for the great wrath to come

Amen!

Grace and Peace!

are all prophies doom and gloom?

Not the rapture!   ;)  

(http://www.rr-bb.com/images/smilies/rapture.gif)

1Th 5:3  For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4  But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5  Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.


The only gloom and doom I see is going to fall on those who seek their peace apart from the peace that Christ offers.

Maranatha

Gee!, I must be living in the Twylight zone.   :)

While everyone else doesn't see the U.S. in prophesy, I seem to see it in much, or a great deal of it!

In fact I believe it is the U.S. which Daniel writes about in chapters 8 through 12 of that book........And that it is the U.S. which John writes about in Rev.13, 17, and 18.

And that the things written about the U.S in those 2 books are summed up in 11Thes.2 when Paul writes about the "falling away".

Where is it on the earth that you all believe the  "falling away"  occurs?

 ???

I know Brother, I said the same thing.

FayeC, you are not alone in this belief.   Many see America as Mystery Babylon.    They make a compelling argument too, but to me it does not agree with everything said about Mystery Babylon in scripture.

First of all, the falling away you mention is never isolated to one nation.   Yes it may happen in large in America because of the numerous believers who reside here, but scripture does not mention a nation falling away in regards to the Apostasy.

As for Mystery Babylon, the angel describes her as a city, sitting on seven hills over many tongues and people.   She rides the beast rising up out of the water.   She is drunk with the blood of the Saints and PROPHETS.   Some try to say New York is the city, but New York is not responsible for killing saints and prophets, at least not so far.  

Rev 17:9  And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
Rev 17:10  And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

7 Kings, five are fallen, and one is, and another is to come.   To be a king, one needs a kingdom.   Who were the five fallen Kingdoms before Johns time?   Egypt, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Assyria....all fell before Johns time.  Now (Johns time), one IS and one is to come, and when it does, it will CONTINUE for a short time.  Which Kingdom was around in Johns time?  ROME!   We know that kingdom also ceased to exist, but yet the EU today calls itself Revived ROME...continuing!   Thats 7 kingdoms, 5 fallen, one that IS (or was in Johns time) and one that was to come, and in our day HAS returned!   The woman that rides THIS beast, will be a city, and will sit on 7 hills, will rule over many tongues and people, will use sorcery, have great wealth, and will be responsible for killing Saints and Prophets.   Hardly seems to fit America when viewed scripturally, at least to me it doesn't.    

Notice also that the 10 horns will hate the whore and give their kingdoms over to the beast (Rome as I see it)...

Rev 17:16  And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
Rev 17:17  For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.
Rev 17:18  And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

This may sound similar to America also, but again, America is not a city on seven hills, nor does she reign over the 10 horns (10 members of the new revived Rome).   For America to match the harlot, it has to agree with Scripture 100%, not just sound similar.   Its highly likely that Mystery Babylon will not be known for sure until after the rapture takes place, but it is already becoming clear who the 10 horns are, and America hardly seems to be controlling them or riding on them.  

Who knows, maybe America will fit the mold better in time, but right now it does not IMO.   America seems to be too hated by the rest of the world to have any hopes of ruling the EU or many other nations.   We will just have to wait and see....but I'm not sure Mystery, Babylon the Great will show its ugly head until after the rapture anyways.


Grace and Peace!

(edited for spelling errors)

If America is not specifically referred to in Bible prophecy, what are the options for its future? If the Lord does not return for some time, the present superpower status of the United States could certainly fade, since it has been little more than a century that America has been a powerful presence on the world stage. However, if you believe, as most pre-trib scholars do, that the signs are ripe for the soon return of Jesus, then the question of America's fate in the near future is a relevant one. Let's look at the four options suggested by Mark Hitchcock.

First off; "America will still be a powerful nation in the last days, but the Lord simply chose not to mention her specifically."

This is possible, but it seems unlikely. In Scripture, the dominant political and military power in the end times is centered in the Mediterranean and in Europe. The scriptural silence concerning America seems to indicate that by the time the tribulation arrives, America will no longer be a major influence in the world.

Since America is the major player in the world today in every arena, it is  suggested three additional options that help address how this demise could occur.

Second; "America is not mentioned specifically in Scripture because she will be destroyed by other nations. She will suffer a fall from the outside."

Third; "America is not mentioned in Bible prophecy because she will have lost her influence as a result of moral and spiritual deterioration. She will suffer a fall from the inside."

Forth; "America will be brought to her knees by the Rapture. The Rapture is key" I feel this provides three main reasons why this is the best option:

First, America is the number one ally and defender of Israel. … Without the support of the United States, Israel would be incinerated in a matter of days by her hostile Arab neighbors.

But Israel is pictured in Scripture as a thriving nation in the end times. Therefore, unless the world scene changes dramatically, I believe that America will remain strong as a nation until the beginning of the end times. Until the Rapture, the United States will continue to serve as Israel's chief ally.

Second, we know from Scripture that after the Rapture, the Antichrist will come to Israel's side and make a seven-year treaty with her (Daniel 9:27). But where is America in that scenario? Why aren't we around as Israel's chief ally and as the major world power? (Daniel 2:44-45; 7:23-25) This strong presence of Europe indicates to me that something will have happened to America that shifts world power back to Europe.

Third, if America remains strong up to the time of the Rapture but is then replaced by Europe as the world's superpower, what does this tell us?

I believe it tells us that America will be brought to her knees by the Rapture. The Rapture is key. The Rapture will change everything.

Look at the statistical evidence of the religion of America compared to other nations to demonstrate that the sudden withdrawal of true believers; even if they represent only a portion of those calling themselves "born again" would be staggering. Millions of people will suddenly be gone, many of them in key positions in the religious, economic and political spheres. Europe, with little religious influence, will barely be effected by the Rapture. The resulting chaos will be enormous.

In a chapter entitled "America in the Last Days," Hitchcock describes what a post-Rapture America will look like. "Simply stated, the main view is that in the end times, America will be absorbed into Antichrist's reunited Roman Empire. The United States will become a part of the end-time confederacy of Western nations."

In light of the flag waving and renditions of "God Bless America" following September 11, which persist even two years after he wrote his book. Hitchcock suggests in a chapter entitled "God Bless America!" that under the Rapture option, God can continue to bless America right up to the Rapture. There are three keys to this: blessing the Jewish people, faithfully sharing the Good News of salvation with a needy world, and by being just, or practicing righteousness in our own lives and promoting righteousness in the society at large.

The question of America's future in light of prophecy requires careful study-and perspective. An understanding of history will show that ours is not the only age when the Lord's return seemed imminent. The signs, as Mark Hitchcock suggest, do seem clearer today than ever before. That is why it is important to study prophecy, while at the same time steadfastly observing the two great commands Christ left his disciples: the Great Commandment (love God and others) and the Great Commission (spread the gospel and make disciples). Along with blessing the Jewish people, these are essentially Mark Hitchcock's points in seeking God's continued blessing on America.

Resting in the Lord's arms.
Bob

Mr. Hitchcock makes some good points DW...I would agree.   I certainly hope the Rapture is the reason.  Either way, we need to put on the whole armour of God and share the good news while we can!  

Grace and Peace!

Just an added thought here. With the tribulation, the possibility of natural disasters (doesn't the Bible say 1/3 the world will be destroyed?) and the enemies that the U.S. has might possibly make the U.S. completely non-existent?

What I am saying here is a combination of events and not just one singular event.

Yes, 1/3 of mankind is killed during the 4th seal alone.   While many nations can be named in the Gog/Magog war, and the battle of armageddon, America is sorely absent, unless she is destroyed or assimilated into Europe somehow.

Grace and Peace!

I said tribulation when I meant rapture. Sorry, I'm really not with it today.

What I was referring to is Luke 21:11 not the 4th seal. I was getting them confused?

I admit that I am weak in endtimes prophecies, that is why I am enjoying your and DW's posts so much. It gives me much to study and pray about.

This makes sense to me PR, but only God knows for sure.   I have always thought the rapture would devistate America supremecy in the world power structure not to mention our economy.   This would certainly make us a candidate for take over by force, or cause us to become reliant on the new world power, the EU.   I hope really hope its due to the rapture, but I trust the Lord will bring it to pass as He sees fit.

Grace and Peace!

Removing Jesus

It won’t be long and all those ACLU employees will be out of a job.

Will they cry out because they have no quest? No, they will celebrate their victory in ridding America of the horrors of Christianity.

How will they do this? Oh, they won’t win victory on their own. Very soon Jesus Christ will appear with a shout and the blast of the trumpet and all those who believe on His Name living and dead will rise up and meet Him in the air.

But that Biblical truth will be lost on the ACLU and anti-Christian crowd because they won’t see it happen. They will see the after effects but not the actual event takes place. All they will know is they finally figured out the right combination of lawsuits to rid the country of all those troublesome people.

Do you think they will care what happened to us? Of course not. They will be overjoyed they finally accomplished their mission. We are a thorn in their flesh and as long as we are here they will fight to take away our rights to religious freedoms.

My own ancestors came to America in 1629 with John Winthrop. They were the Puritans. I am a descendent of many Winthrop followers. They came to worship God freely. They came to make a new nation in which their descendents could worship God as they pleased and be free from tyranny. They gave all Americans and me a great gift. Real freedom. They formed it. They shaped it. They molded it. They prayed over it. Then they made a free nation for all people.

I think that many of our American ancestors would be turning over in their graves right now over the ACLU and other groups like them. They would revolt and go to war to stop the foolishness going on right before our eyes.

Their blood cries out from the ground to all of us. We must stop the ACLU. We must stand up and fight this politically correct garbage on every front. We must not let go of one more icon upon which our country was founded.

We must insist the schools teach history as history was and is. We must insist our children and grandchildren receive an education upholding the principles upon which our country was founded. We must not let schools stomp out the mention of God or religion in our country’s founding documents and in the words of our founding fathers.

Our children and grandchildren deserve the right to know how and why our country was founded. They need to know who our founding fathers were and what their goals were and exactly why they wrote the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence as they did. They need to know exactly why we have a Bill of Rights and why it was written for every American to come.

They need to know these God-fearing men and women so they can know why America is the Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave.

They need to know why the Pilgrims had a Thanksgiving Day and what it meant to them. They didn’t celebrate to just give thanks to the Native Americans. They gave thanks to the Almighty God for granting them life and helping them survive the harsh conditions in their new land. They were glad to be alive....to have made it another year.

They faced many setbacks and faced trials and difficulties they never imagined. Many of them died that first year. The survivors were truly grateful to God for seeing them through it all.

The world hates Jesus Christ. He said it did. He also said that if the world hates you to remember it hated Him first. The world and the ACLU will stop at nothing to destroy everything Christian from in front of their eyes, ears and minds. They want to erase Christianity from the worldview.

I don’t know about you but I’m going to do everything I can to keep these zealots from removing Christianity before the Rapture of the Church takes place. Let’s drive them into the sea and stop this evil among us before it is too late.

http://www.hallindseyoracle.com/articles.asp?ArticleID=9550

Brother Bob,

I'm with you. I pray that all of us stand and fight to the last minute.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 8:18  For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

Oh yes, the "falling away" is indeed isolated to one nation, for it goes hand in hand with the "abomination of desolation".

Jesus said in Mat.24:15 that the falling away and the abomination of desolation would happen in "the holy place", and for us to understand where "the holy place" is, he points us to the book of Daniel.

Dan.9:26 says, "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself, and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy "the city" and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and to the end of the war desolations are determined."

"Threescore and two weeks" means the year 62.  1962 is the year in which daily prayer was removed from America's schools, thus "Messiah was cut off".

"The people of the prince" (prince of darkness) in that verse means "the beast"; the son(s) of perdition.

"City" in that verse means the "little horn"; or Revelation's "Babylon".  Translated, they mean "America".

"Sanctuary" means "the Christian Churches in America.

Please don't underestimate what America may do in the future in regards to the killing of the saints and prophets in our nation.  Even now America will not allow for Christ to be mentioned at Christmas in the classrooms of this country.
Better ask yourself, "What if in the future, the Christians in our nation began to defy the laws which America has enacted against Christ.  What do you think might happen to them?, especially during the tribulation.
Just something for you to think about.

FayeC  :)

It is quite obvious that Jerusalem is is the City that Daniel is talking about...because he even names the city in 9:25.    It is also quite obvious both Jesus and Daniel were talking about the Holy Place in the temple of God.   When was messiah cut off?   In 1962, or when Christ was crucified?    I wish to be gentle here, but you are translating things in scripture that need no translation.   The text makes plain sense.  Why do you seek sense that fits a model, rather than letting the text speak for itself?   We could make up anything we like about the text this way.

China for example forbids Christian prayer in school.  Its against the law to own a bible.  People caught preaching the gospel are thrown into jail.   BTW there was a China/India  War in 1962!   Theres the threescore and two weeks!   ;)  Using this method of interpretation, I could argue that Daniel was surely talking about China more than America.   See what I mean?   We can make it mean anything we want this way....But we both know Daniel is not talking about China.  (at least I hope we do)


I really mean this in the nicest way possible.   It just appears you are spiritualizing every other word for the sake of making it fit your pre-conceived idea.   This will only lead to errors.  

When the text make plain sense, seek no other sense.  

Grace and Peace!

Tim,

Daniel is NOT talking about "Christ's crucifiction" in 9:26!...He's talking about the end of the age when the "falling away" occurs!

It would appear that you are the one confused, along with most of the church world today, I might add.  For many, if not most today believe as you, but you and they are wrong.

Both Daniel and Revelation is about things which occur in the "last days" leading up to Christ's return.
According to Dan.9:25, the last days commences when Israel is restored as a nation.  That occured in 48....thus we have been living in what is called the "end-times" since 1948.  And the things written in 2Thes.2, and Daniel, and Revelation, and Mat.24:15, along with Romans 1, and a host of others, is  about none other than America; the once mighty Christian nation of which "the host" has turned their backs on God.

THAT'S what those scriptures are about, and until you realize that, you'll continue to be confused.
 

 :)   I certainly don't claim a monopoly on all of Gods truth and mysteries, nor do I wish to debate or argue about it.    Like I said before, we can agree to disagree and still Love each other in the Lord.   It does not appear we will make any headway discussing this further, so I will relent here.

May God richly bless you and keep you!

Grace and Peace!

God deals with Israel in the End Times. The city is Jerusalem...if you can't see this then you dis-regard both History and Prophecy faye...Here's my point. You can stand there and say that the city is not Jerusalem all you want, but the fact is, that is the place where Christ will set His foot back down on this earth. It would make no sense whatsoever, nor would it follow Scripture, that Christ would set foot in America before He set foot in Israel. Also It doesn't make sense, nor does it follow Scripture, that Christ will be anointed the Holy One in America. That is clearly talking about Jerusalem. Remember that Jesus is the King of the Jews. and they will crown Him king when He comes back and sets foot in Jerusalem! Makes sense considering His Throne will be set in Jerusalem, both old and New Jerusalem. also what is failed to be taken into account is this: The Holy One hasn't been anointed as King of Israel by the Nation of Israel yet, the 70th week has not begun because there has not been a covenant between the antichrist and the nations., there has not been an end put to transgression...Israel is still a desolate nation spiritually, and Iniquity still hasn't been put to an end because of the fact that there is still violence in Israel at the moment. So to sa y that this was fulfilled in 1962, isn't right.  Also, the abomination of Desolation is clearly seen to have been done in ISRAEL considering the Temple Mount and the New Temple will be located in Jerusalem.  Jesus said that when they saw the Abomination of Desolation that He told them to flee to the mountains of Judea. Now how in the world, are we going to flee to the mountains of judea after the judgements of God? what you've posted doesn't make sense and I don't see how it lines up with Scripture, faye. So sad...I will follow Timothy's lead and i wont bring this to contention. God Bless.

Joshua

AMEN 2ND TIMOTHY & JOSHUA!!

It is painfully obvious that many are being led far astray by false prophets and false teachers. I did a search on the Internet the other day and was amazed to find an unbelievable number of false prophets and false teachers with huge followings. On the surface, some of their teachings made partial sense, but that would be giving them far too much credit.

Far too many babes in Christ are buying what these snake-oil salesmen have to offer. It's very sad there are so many without an adequate foundation in the WORD and get sucked into the teachings and doctrines of just about every snake-oil salesman that comes down the pike. NOW, more than ever, people need sound teaching from HIS HOLY WORD.

There appears to be a common denominator with many of the false prophets and false teachers. They like to concentrate and isolate portions of Scripture that fit their agenda or tale. In context and the rest of the Bible is ignored for a big reason - IT EXPOSES WHAT THEY ARE SAYING AS A LIE.

I was astonished to find hundreds of self-proclaimed prophets, prophetesses, and apostles - all claiming divine revelation directly from God. I don't know how many there actually are, but they appear to be on every corner, and many of them are getting filthy rich from the offerings of poor people who think they are actually giving to someone who is REAL. Poor people by the thousands are being reeled in for brain-washing and LIES. This makes them completely blind and deaf of the TRUTH. I'll put it simply and bluntly, MUCH OF IT IS STRAIGHT FROM THE DEVIL!

Many people are still looking for miracles, signs, and wonders for belief, and the devil is giving it to them. Once they have been reeled in and brain-washed, they are blind and deaf to THE SIMPLE TRUTH OF GOD'S WORD. This is a time of growing evil and great confusion. Those who are babes in Christ or who have failed to gain strength in JESUS are being led away into the darkness and made crippled or useless as Ambassadors for Christ.

Brothers, this is a time that demands much prayer, patience, and longsuffering to continue a good fight, build each other up in Christ, and proclaim BOLDLY THE TRUTH FROM GOD'S WORD.

FayeC, I'll tell you simply and bluntly that you have been led astray. I will pray for you.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 18:46  The LORD liveth; and blessed be my rock; and let the God of my salvation be exalted.

I think we are in a great falling away now .as hardly any one trusts in the LORD for anything .we trust the doctors ,lawyers ,friends .family ,police ,anyone but JESUS CHRIST .And our nation is spilt ,,between 2 partys ,with neither right .we are in a mess .involed in every nation on earth .our own in deep trouble . I really don"t see much hope for the world and our nation .I think if we go down as a righteous people ?which we are not now .Then evil will have its way on the earth .The rapture would cause this nation to fall in darkness .GOD had blessed this nation greatly .But now I think ,HE hates the evil we do .killing millions of little babys and teaching everything evil to our kids .everything on t.v. just about evil .even our so called christain programs . only the greatest of miracles can change us .But I fear it is too late .as I believe MY lORd is soon returning .I awoke a while ago ,with a song in my mind over and over I heard .people get ready ,the LORD will be coming soon .It may mean nothing .But it stayed in my mind over and over while asleep then while awake for a very long time .BUT you know the LORd said ?pray you are worthy to go .and for us too be looking for hIS coming .

Brother Gary,

We can pray that God will give us the strength and guidance to stand up and keep fighting the good fight until the minute JESUS comes to take us home. It won't be easy. We will need God's help and the support of our brothers and sisters in Christ.

God is still winning souls, and God is still using us. We should give thanks for that and yield completely to what HE wants us to do.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Philippians 4:7  And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

YES ,we have nothing too fear .HE will never leave or forsake us .And all things work for our GOOD .But I think the time is near and we should try to draw as near as we can to HIM .That we can bless others .At least plant seeds of TRUTH .Because they will grow even after we are gone .You know the LORD said ?our works do follow .Because many can be saved after and we will have a part in that !HE wants us to know ?HE will reward us .And i am sure !We will want that reward .because it will be everlasting .BLESS YOU BROTHER

And yet..... knowing all these things are true which you pointed out about our nation, gary, most Bible believing Christians will call one a false prophet if one suggests that America is end-time "Babylon".

And God forbit should one suggest that "the falling away"  commenced in America when we took away daily prayer from our nation's public schools.

And to suggest that "the taking away of those daily prayers"  is what Daniel was talking about when he spoke of "the taking away of the daily sacrifice", will get one branded a heretic.

Is it safe to say that America is worshipped by the Christians within her?  I believe so.

"And they worshipped the dragon (Babylon) which gave power unto the beast, and they worshipped the beast, saying........"  Rev.13:4

Well FAYC .I really can not say about such things .Yes I do believe our nation is evil as a whole .Yet .God said HE will have mercy on those who bless the jewish nation .We still do that .
I know many say this nation is this and that .But until the LORD reveals this to me ?I will not judge .But personally .I see no place for us in the end times ?Of course we are somewhere ?Becuae people will be here .I think ? But we will not play a great role .Maybe we get nuked or maybe we repent .or maybe the church leaves and they start destorying each other here ?I really have no good idea .You would think ,We would be mentioned .But We MUST wait and see .if OUR LORD tarrys .I already see the great change from my childhood til now .and in one day .we could be the weakest nation on earth .And there are people who could and would humble us .It would be very easy .As our news casters tell them on t.v. where and what too do .So our nation is blind .They can not see the harm they are doing .
All I can say ?Is we must set our eyes on HIM .and never look away .Because HE alone is our HOPE .HERE, there or in the air .
You know HE is dealing with the jewish people .but not only them ?He is dealing with the whole world .His wrath is coming upon everry one still here .And many will repent .But most will not .This time coming .is a time NO PERSON will want to live .It is a evil fearful time .WORSE than ever before .I do not want to be here .But I am willing to follow my LORD ,right up to losing my head .I have given MY LIFE TO HIM .Whatever comes MY way .I will stand in FAITh .Trusting HIm with my very heart and soul .
But I do think ?We should do all in our power to draw near to HIm in these LAST days .We will need to be led by HIS HOLY SPIRIT .

AMEN BROTHER GARY!!!

There are many disagreements about the end times of this age and dispensation of Grace, and those agreements or disagreements have nothing to do with Salvation except encouraging Christians to keep standing and sharing the GOOD NEWS.

I live in America, but I don't worship it. It isn't material at all to Salvation, but I would say with absolute certainty that America is NOT Babylon. However, I would say again this is not material to Salvation. The only thing material to Salvation is that the Christians of America and every other nation on earth keep standing and sharing the Gospel, regardless of how hard it gets. Christians in many parts of the earth are already being killed and hunted for owning a Bible, attending a worship service, or daring to mention the precious name of JESUS. In comparison to other countries, Christians in America have it easy and are soft and spoiled with the freedom to worship JESUS.

So, comparing America to other countries is still absolute nonsense, something with no Biblical basis of any kind. It actually appears that twisting and distorting Bible prophecy to support the absolute lie that America is Babylon does nothing but discourage Christians who are still standing and still fighting here, in much greater numbers than any other country in the world. As a nation, America is getting pretty sad, but the largest number of standing and fighting Christians are still here. The "falling away" tales and distortions used to discourage Christians by some DO NOT PERTAIN TO A SINGLE NATION!

I don't have a problem in being bold and blunt by saying the devil is working overtime to spread lies and other deceptions to discourage and shut up Christians all over the world. The degree of success by the devil's lies and deceptions are thousands of times more complete in countries OTHER THAN AMERICA! This does not suggest worship of America, but it does more than suggest that the largest remaining number of standing and fighting Christians are still in America.

Love In Christ,
Tom

I Corinthians 1:9  God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

FayeC,

I would simply say that one suggesting this is totally ignorant of Bible prophecy and clueless. If the person suggesting this wasn't clueless and ignorant, I would question their agenda and what they hoped to accomplish with such a twisted and distorted lie. It certainly couldn't be for the edification and encouragement of Christians still standing and still trying to yield to the Will and Use of God.

UM??? - So what would it be? Could one take this a step further and say that Christians are doing the work of the devil? One could read between the lines and easily see it could be for the purpose of silencing Christians by confusing and discouraging them.

FayeC, I would simply ask you if you are trying to talk to America or the Christians in America? Which one? I will also tell you bluntly that you need to do a beginner's study on Bible prophecy before you try to teach it.

A recent post of your's that I deleted as being totally racist makes me wonder how easily you are sucked in to every deception and excuse for doctrine that comes down the pike.

Who is Jesus Christ to you?

What do you believe about Jesus Christ?

Love In Christ,
Tom

2nd Timothy 3:16  All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

If I'm totally clueless and ignorant of Bible prophecy, then perhaps you could clue me in!......What nation is the "little horn" which came out of one of the 4 kingdoms upon the earth, and of which Daniel said?:

"Out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed ecceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the "pleasant land".
And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; (to Christians) and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them".  Dan.8:9-10

So.....which "exceeding great" nation is this, which stomps upon its Christian hosts?!

I openly admitt that I am not as well learned in prophicy as I should like, I am only seventeen years old but reading some of the above posts I cannot help but relay to all of you something that has been sering in my mind the past few weeks.  It is not a perfect match for the convo but I think it is close enough that it will add to the discussion.
  I love history, specifically U.S. History and something I have learned is that the puritains have been arguably the biggest factors in our national identity.  The puritain Ideaolgy of self examination and expossing wrongs so that they may be corrected is still obvious in the american mindset.  I could alaberate more if it is so desired but for now I digress.
  The puritains left europe not to seperate from the body of Christ but move away from the corruption and set up an example in a virgin wilderness.  "A City on a Hill" they believed that if they came to this wilderness they could set up a perfect Christian sociaty that would undoughtedly prove to all nations what true Christians look like and thus be a witness and example to all.  
  the above is fact to the best of my knowledge here is where I step out on faith in what I believe to be devine revalation.  I believe that when Christians step in faith as ordered by God and verbalise what I believe to be a prophetic word that America will be a city on a hill it must come to pass because when God speaks it is as good as done, it comes into existence with his speach.  I believe that when the puritains came to america it was paralell to Abraham coming out of his land to go to a new land and create a new nation.  I believe that there is a prophetic statement made by our ancestors centuries ago that God will honor for their sakes even though it has been forgotten for generation.
  I understand that it is arguable that this has been fulfilled already but I think that it has not yet been fulfilled to it's potential, I would say that we have been a city on a hill politically and in other areana's through history but I believe that we have yet to become the whitness of true christian sociaty that was prophicied over this nation by our ancestors.
  I think that befor the end there will be an awekening of the church in America to an extent that noone has ever seen and I think that this is the generation that will complete it.  I believe that before the end this nation will become a spiritual lite to the world.
the scripture says that there will be 5 virgins tha are ready for his coming and 5 that are not, personally I don't see 5 virgins that have all the oil ( spirit ) that they need.  I do not believe that Christ will return for a sad devided and defeated bride but ofr a glorious bride that is in love with Him.  I believe that before the end ther will be revival that will start here in america and spread to the world a revival that will make the great awekening look small and weak.  It is not a matter, to me, of surviving to the time that I see Christ return but instead a time for a great offencive for prayer and reclaiming of the heritage that this nation has, the promise that is over it.  
This has been constantly on my mind and my writting probably can't justify the reality of what I am thinking but
I would love to hear you opinions as to weather I could be correct in my thinking.  please do not take offence at anything I say, assume I misspoke and ask me for I never intend to offend anyone.

God Bless all of You and
God Bless America

Elear2787

Would you please pull up the quote in which I stated that Christ would set foot down in "America"?, and that He would be anointed in "America"?

I simply don't recall saying that, nor WOULD I say that.

FayeC

If you could explain what you think that scripture prove it would be helpful because the hosts and the stars would clearly refer to angels not earthy things and in verse 11 it says,
"It even magnified itself to be equal with the Commander of the host; and it removed the regular sacrifice from him, and the place of his sanctuary was thrown down.  " daniel 8:11  
this is clearly refering to Lucifer's fall taking some of the stars or angels with him, he was the leader of worship in heaven before his fall, thus the removal of the sacrifice.  Satin stood against God the comander of the Hosts and grew in pride.  this is not an end time prophicy in my opinion and even if it where interprested that way the US is not to the N.W. of Isreal that would refer to the EU ( european union is directly north west of jerusalem so why would that refer to the US )

God bless you all richly and give you exceding wisdom and knowledge in all things
love through Christ


elear2787

FayeC,

You have already ignored sound doctrine posted in numerous areas of the board. Your question is already answered. I refuse to argue with you, as I have more important things to do with my time.

I see that you had no interest in answering my questions about JESUS. That told me a lot. Whether you are saved or not is now my concern. Much of the deeper things of the WORD are spiritually discerned with the help of the Holy Spirit, and those deeper things of the WORD would certainly include Bible prophecy. I think that you need to hear about JESUS, and I would love to share JESUS with you. Please start out in the Apologetics area with the FAQ for non-Christians, and many here will help you in any way that we can.

Love In Christ,
Tom

John 8:12  Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

Tom,
That's a cop-out, and you know it.

Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior of my life......Now, would you please answer the question I asked of you, which was, "Which nation today is this "little horn" which Daniel speaks about?

Sorry to butt in late here, but this is answered a few verses later.

Dan 7:24  'As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will subdue three kings.

The little horn is a King not a nation.  This is not my opinion, but stated from the word.

Grace and Peace!

Hello Elear2787!   Welcome to Christians Unite.  

Your thought process here seems to make good sense.   I think the problem believing this has fulfilled prophecy in Revelation is, that those events are yet future.   Until Christ begins breaking the seals, the rest of the events spoken of in Revelation cannot begin.   There are some that teach (endtimeprophecy.com for eg.) that we are approaching the sixth trumpet.   From my understanding of bible prophecy, this does not make sense.   I don't think there will be any question when Revelation begins in earnest.   It will be drastic, and world shapping from the first seal.   The revealing of the Antichrist will be the marker that it has begun.   The first seal, first rider.

2Th 2:2  that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
2Th 2:3  Let no one in any way deceive you, for it (the day of the Lord) will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
2Th 2:4  who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

(emphasis mine)

The Day of the Lord will commence when this man is revealed, and not until.

We're not there yet, but I believe we are getting close.  I do believe the Rapture will take place before the day of the Lord also, but that is better left for another thread.

Anyways, good talk!

Grace and Peace!

"Kings" are "peoples", Timothy.  And in this instance, it's referring to the "10 horned beast"; the "man of sin"...."son of perdition", who take over the "little horn" kingdom from it's previous hosts....And the host of that nation ends up "worshipping" them.

The "little horn" is a "kingdom"; or "nation" which,  at one time honored Christ, but "fell away" from him....called the "falling away" in 11Thes.2.

The falling away occured within the "little horn" kingdom; or that which Christ called "the holy place"  in Mat.24.15.

I stepped on a bug once...

Let me just post the scripture this time.

Dan 7:7  "After this I kept looking in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, dreadful and terrifying and extremely strong; and it had large iron teeth. It devoured and crushed and trampled down the remainder with its feet; and it was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns.
Dan 7:8  "While I was contemplating the horns, behold, another horn, a little one, came up among them, and three of the first horns were pulled out by the roots before it; and behold, this horn possessed eyes like the eyes of a man and a mouth uttering great boasts.


Dan 7:19  "Then I desired to know the exact meaning of the fourth beast, which was different from all the others, exceedingly dreadful, with its teeth of iron and its claws of bronze, and which devoured, crushed and trampled down the remainder with its feet,
Dan 7:20  and the meaning of the ten horns that were on its head and the other horn which came up, and before which three of them fell, namely, that horn which had eyes and a mouth uttering great boasts and which was larger in appearance than its associates.
Dan 7:21  "I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them
Dan 7:22  until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.
Dan 7:23  "Thus he said: 'The fourth beast will be a fourth kingdom on the earth, which will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth and tread it down and crush it.
Dan 7:24  'As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will subdue three kings.
Dan 7:25  'He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.


There is a fourth KINGDOM, and there are 10 Kings that rule within this fourth Kingdom.  The little Horn is another KING that rises out of that Kingdom and pulls down three of the other Kings.    I think we both agree that the little horn is the Antichrist.   Not sure where you are getting nations from though.

The falling away in 2 Thes. is not talking about a nation.   Please supply the chapter and verse that says a particular nation will fall away?

Grace and Peace!

Allinall Said:


Alrighty then!   Begs the question...can a nation wear a shoe?  :P   ;D

FayeC,

I've decided to be blunt and tell it like it is so that everyone will know who they are dealing with in you.

We don't allow skinhead, white supremest, or Nazi racist garbage here, and that was exactly what your post was that I deleted several days ago. The Jesus Christ that I worship loves people of all colors and died for everyone who will accept Him.

I really don't know what you agenda is here, nor do I care. I'll simply tell you bluntly that everything you do here will be reviewed and you may not be here long. There won't be any more warnings, so I suggest that you read the forum rules.

Moderator

cc:  ADMIN
cc:  Dreamweaver
cc:  Private Mail To You

We are spirits 1st  They have no color or race  .There is no place in the church for judging the out ward appearance ?Ask this is not TRUE judgement .

The little horn isn't a nation. He is the anti-christ. Do a simple word study of that passage and the other passages related to it, and you'll see that the "Little-horn" is personified. Just a few thoughts.
GB

Joshua

Fulfilled by Antiochus Epiphanes.


Medes-Persians{Bear - Daniel 7:5} - [Silver - Daniel 2:39] Isaiah 44:28, Isaiah 45:1-4


Greek{Leopard - Daniel 7:6} - [Brass - Daniel 2:39] --- Alexander the Great


Macedonia, Syria, Egypt, Asia Minor, were ruled by Alexander’s four generals --- Casander, Lysimachus, Seleucus and Ptolemy following the death of Alexander in 323 BC.



Some scholars say Antiochus Epiphanes has fulfilled some of this, but also showing what the Antichrist will be like in the end times. Research the Seleucid dynasty and also Antiochus Epiphanes(antiGod of the old testament), you can find him in the Maccabees, you'll look at Daniel chapter 8 differently.

The "Great Image" of Nebuchadnezzar.



Babylon{Lion Daniel 7:4} - Jeremiah 49:14-22,28; Daniel chapter 4 used both the lion and the eagle as pictures of Nebuchadnezzar.


Medes-Persians Daniel 5:28 {Bear - 3 ribs - Babylon, Egypt and Lydia. Daniel 7:5}

Greek/Roman{Leopard - Daniel 7:6} - [Belly and his thighs of brass],


{Dreadful and Terrible - Daniel 7:7; Revelation 13:1-2}

Very well said. I see someone's been doing their research...lol I enjoyed the commentary on the great image of nebuchanezzar. Baseed on what i've read, you're right on the money about the image. And i'm sure you'll agree with me that the 6th world power is rome. However, there is some discrepancy amongst some christians that i've seen, that the 7th kingdom is that of the anti-christ or whether it is tha tof Christ Himself...i do not think that it is the latter. But just a few thoughts to add. I couldn't have posted it better myself. God Bless and keep up the good work!

Joshua

Yes, the little horn is anti-(against) Christ, but, the little horn is clearly a nation.
Again, look at the scripture which describes the little horn:

"And out of one of them (out of one of the kingdoms) came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them."

If the little horn is a man (called Antichrist as you suppose,) then are you saying that Antichrist waxs great to "Christians" on the earth?!

"The falling away is not talking about a nation.  Please suppy the chapter and verse that says a nation will fall away."

Daniel doesn't use the term "falling away"......He goes into more detail by saying, "After threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, and in the midst of the week, he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease."

It's the little horn which cuts off Messiah, and causes the sacrifice and oblation to cease, for notice 8:11-12 (still talking about the little horn.)

"Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and "by him (by the little horn) the daily sacrifice was taken away", and the place of his sanctuary was cast down."
"And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered."

The United States has indeed practiced and prospered since it cut off Christ, and took away daily school prayer back in 1962.....Don't you think?

If Italy can be a boot, then a nation can wear a shoe.   ;D Sorry for the levity.  I just felt out of the argument and sorely lacking in argumentation.   :D ;D ;)

If'n de choo fits, wear it!  ;D

Brothers,

 ;D   ;D  ROFL!!! - Thanks - I needed that laugh.

hehehe!   ;D

Just my humble opinion -
I believe we'll be raptured, Praise God!
Our President is a christian, and much of our government is too.  Not sure, but I think about 3/4  of America is also christian.  What will be left after the rapture?  Not much.
With no godly leadership, and that much of the population gone, this land will be left to the vultures.
I would like to encourage everyone to keep praying and ask God for a greater burden for the lost.  No one would want to be left behind if they knew the truth and it grieves me to think that many still are lost.

To God be the power and glory forever, amen.
Shalom, PrairWarur

Tell me about GODS new REST ?Tell me about the rivers of living water ?Did you receive this or the other ? if so explain to me ?What took place ? Also about the new birth ?and where new jerusalen is right now .As I KNOW THESE ANSURER and want to SEE if you do ?

I sure wish Jesus would come Real Soon Now. Hal Lindsey's Website at hallindseyoracle.com is WONDERFUL!

Here's Hal's latest Op-Ed piece! Awesome!

When I sit back and take a good, hard look current events, I marvel that anyone could miss the signs of Jesus Christ's soon coming. We live in a world where the United States is considered socially backward because it takes issue with the idea of homosexual marriage.

It is a world in which a Catholic archbishop can cause headlines by referring to homosexuality as "epidemic."

It is a world where people find no contradiction in demanding that everybody else conform to their narrow views because the view of the majority makes them feel like outsiders.

A world in which the prevailing legal view is that there is a "God-given right" for the God-haters to not be offended by the mention of "God" in public.

A Houston, Texas judge ruled that a Bible in a courthouse might give the impression Houston's Harris County has a preference for Christianity. A Bible in a courthouse! Is he kidding?

Up seems to be down and black seems to be white. For the first time in the history of mankind, the main topic of debate is over a question no previous generation would even entertain. The question baffling this generation is not "where did I come from?" or, "Is there an afterlife?" That doesn't seem to be as important as whether marriage should be between a man and a woman.

Meanwhile, the Earth itself seems to be in rebellion. The Asian mega-quake that changed geography caused the planet to vibrate like a tuning fork. It knocked the planet far enough off its axis to momentarily change time – and this may only be the beginning.

There are warnings of a sudden shift in the Earth's poles, a reversal of the Earth's magnetic fields and the fear of the onset of a new Ice Age.

Environmentalists warn that global warming will raise the world's sea levels, resulting the catastrophic flooding and loss of life. Many scientists warn that the shift of mass from the concentration of solid ice caps due to melting and being distributed in the oceans could further exacerbate the Earth's wobbling axis.

Meanwhile, the sun continues to convulse, sending out massive showers of debris into the solar system, while irradiating the Earth with unprecedented doses of solar radiation. It is, according to some prominent Russian scientists, the most active period of solar activity in 8,000 years.

The past year broke all the records in terms of natural disasters. This year began with earthquakes, floods, unseasonably cold weather in some places, unseasonably warm in others, and nobody seems to be able to explain what is going on.

The economy is at once both robust and growing and teetering on the edge of catastrophe. Economists warn that it would take just one push in the right direction at the right time for the whole house of cards to come collapsing around our ears.

Meanwhile, NASA just spent hundreds of millions to launch a spacecraft designed to impact with a comet in deep space to see if it is possible to deflect a killer asteroid. Does anyone else beside me feel like he is in a Stephen King movie?

The Bible prophets describes the last days as a period of ever-increasing wars and natural disasters. Jesus, Himself, predicted that there would be wars and rumors of wars, great earthquakes, plagues of deadly diseases, cataclysmic weather changes and famine just before His return. He likened all these things to birth pangs. He said that as the time approached, they would increase in both frequency and intensity.

He spoke of signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars. He warned of the distress of nations, saying things would grow so frightening that men's hearts would fail them for fear, just in looking at what is coming.

But all these terrors are just the beginning of a period of catastrophe and death so profound that Jesus, Himself, said no time in history has ever been like it before – nor ever will be again.

Amidst all the fear and uncertainty, however, Jesus promised great hope. He said that, just before the beginning of the 7-year period, He would come again and receive to Himself all those who put their faith in Him and receive the gift of pardon He paid for with His own blood.

We see the shadows of predicted events that tell us the time known as the Tribulation Period is almost upon us. To those who understand the prophecy of the Bible that means time is extremely short. Do not put off receiving the gift of pardon that Jesus purchased for you and put your name on it. Don't get left behind. The consequences of that will be beyond anything you can imagine.

I would say ?After reading this ?WE SHOULD  PRAISE THE LORD .OUR TIME IS NEAR .YET so many need light .

The late great planet earth.  Which year? If this man's teaching was from God he wouldn't have been wrong...

I don"t know much about him .But I know many like him .You say that ?But you maybe judgeing wrong .because jonah ,told thiose people they would be destoryed as GOD told him .But they repented and GOD spared them .maybe this was it ?I can not say .Yet I find it wise to not judge too quickly ?But you may be right ?

AMEN PrairWarur!!

Sooner or later, God's promises will be fulfilled at exactly His appointed time. When that time arrives, there will be a world-wide scenario, much like you describe. Our burden in our hearts for the lost should remain constant, regardless of whether we feel that the last days of this age are near or far away.

By the way, WELCOME TO CHRISTIANS UNITE!! I don't think that I've had a chance to welcome you yet. Here's a big "by the way", I also believe that the CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST will be RAPTURED SOON!



Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 28:7  The LORD is my strength and my shield; my heart trusted in him, and I am helped: therefore my heart greatly rejoiceth; and with my song will I praise him.

I've been enjoying this thread very much.  I have to admit that my only knowledge of Revelations comes for the "Left Behind" series of books and I don't know how closely they tied that to the bible prophecies.  Based on these books though it appears that there are many signs - catastrophic climate changes and disasters, a trend toward a one world currency (euro) and a one world religion (or belief) where everything is tolerated and only intolerance is a crime - I believe we are heading into the end times although I doubt it will happen in my lifetime.

Keep up the great discussion!

I do not believe you will die of old age .I believe any day now ?Is our day to go HOME where we belong .as WE are made for NEW JERUSALEM .

Brother Gary,

For Christians, the beautiful TRUTH of eternity is described in great detail in the Holy Bible. When Christians spend the time to study this TRUTH, they can't help but to Praise the LORD, give thanks, and worship HIM who rescued us from the curse of sin and death. The more we understand and study this TRUTH, the stronger we will become in JESUS, even during this short life here on earth. I would quickly point out that this short life is nothing compared to what WILL BE in JESUS. This short life will most definitely involve trials, tears, and sorrow, but we have JESUS in our hearts and HE walks with us every step of the way. I give thanks that our citizenship is not in or of this world, rather our citizenship is in heaven. Reading and studying about our real home is beautiful beyond human description.

Brother, the TRUTH of eternity for the lost is also described in great detail in the Holy Bible. This TRUTH is the exact opposite of what a Christian has. The citizenship of a lost person is in HELL -  everlasting punishment, torment, pain, and horror. Every Christian should have a burning desire to share JESUS. JESUS is the only ONE who can rescue them from the horrible wrath to come.

Brother, one of the beautiful things about studying Bible prophecy is that it always leads back to JESUS, the author and finisher of our faith. The end times of this age are also described in great detail in the Holy Bible. The lost will laugh and dismiss it as fairy tales. Those who love the LORD and study the Holy Bible will quickly know there will be a time of great wrath on this earth beyond anything that can be imagined. Armageddon, the rule and reign of the Antichrist from Jerusalem, and the second coming of our LORD in great wrath are not fairy tales. JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF will rule and reign over the earth from the Throne of David in Jerusalem for 1,000 years. What happens before the 1,000 year rule and reign of Christ will be destruction, death, terror, and horror like the world has never known before. Almighty God has given the people of the earth over 2,000 years to confess, repent, and accept Jesus Christ as LORD AND SAVIOUR. The time for Salvation now grows short.

Jesus Christ Himself revealed great signs and wonders for multitudes over 2,000 years ago, and this was recorded in greater detail than any other event in the history of mankind. GOD humbled Himself and was made manifest in the flesh to die on the Cross for us. JESUS CHRIST was crucified and died a horrible death in our place and for us, THE JUST for the unjust, THE HOLY for the unholy, THE RIGHTEOUS for the unrighteous! Our LORD did die, but HE arose from the dead on the third day and is our LIVING LORD AND SAVIOUR FOREVER, VERY GOD, ALMIGHTY GOD, OUR CREATOR! Our precious LORD will wield a terrible, swift sword one day soon, and it will be too late to confess, repent, and accept HIM. Those who have rejected HIM will be condemned forever.

Love In Christ,
Tom

John 3:16-18 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Galatians 4:4-7  But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

John 4:14  But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Isaiah 43:11  I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

Romans 5:8  But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

John 1:14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

2 Corinthians 5:17-18  Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

1 Corinthians 2:9  But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

Philippians 3:7-14  But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Heb 12:22

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
KJV


The above scripture says "ye are come" it does not read "ye will come" or "ye shall come". Is the tense of the verse wrong, was Paul correct in writing the Words of God?  Any comments on the verse?

Chapter and verse are quote so all may look up the verse and read the context

Rev 13:11
And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.  


Rev 13:12
And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.  


Rev 13:13
And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,  


Rev 13:14
And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by [the means of] those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.  


Rev 13:15
And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

I believe that USA is the beast from verse 11.

Amen.
I truly believe when the end is near America won't be there or not in as much power.I most likely would go with the war thing.Knowing that alot of people probably don't like America for some reason and there are always wars going on.I truly don't know it's just my thoughts.

Hi I think if we are to see if the United States or Canada for that matter we have to look in the Old testement when the tribes of Isreal (excuse spelling) were scatterd . The tribe of Dan Followed after a east wind and a wind from the east travels west. And remember the promises that God made to Abraham especially the prosperity. I thik the promises were with held back 7 years for every year the tribes of Isreal sinned in the desert were they not ther for 40 years  So if we count the time frame 2 thousand and eighty years which would bring us to the 18 hundreds. At that time fram arose Britan so prosperours that it was called great Britan. i heard that that the Usa and Canada are come from the tribe of ephrium and manassa Again please excuse spelling . And the U.S.A. and canada migrated from Britan. Did you ever wonder why we had so much prosperity in our Nations as compared to other nations I think because of the promises made to Abraham. But God never said we would keep it forever and I feel that with the laws we are passing in out countries making it against the law to show the commandments and seperation of church and state are we not turning our backs on God? They have taken the lords prayer out of our schools. I feel if we continue in this manner we will loose what we have as a nation because we have asked God to leave. All through history have not World powers been brought down. This is food for thought and I think this is a good topic.

  I am not saying I am correct just wonder if that might be where the U.S.A. is mentioned in prophecy.

  Your Brother in Christ: Brian

I do believe that the United States can be found in prophesy. Just read Zechariah 14:1-3.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

I don't see the US in Prophecy...what does Zechariah 14:1-3 have to do with the US...that is Prophecy concerning JERUSALEM. Here, i'll post 3 different versions of these versions.

Zachariah 14:1-3 NKJV
1 Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
       And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
       2For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
       The city shall be taken,
       The houses rifled,
       And the women ravished.
       Half of the city shall go into captivity,
       But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
       3Then the LORD will go forth
       And fight against those nations,
       As He fights in the day of battle.
 KJV:
1Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

   2For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

   3Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

NASB:

1Behold, a (A)day is coming for the LORD when (B)the spoil taken from you will be divided among you.
   
   2For I will (C)gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city will be captured, the (D)houses plundered, the women ravished and half of the city exiled, but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city.

   
   3Then the LORD will go forth and (E)fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle.

and finally NLT:
1Watch, for the day of the LORD is coming when your possessions will be plundered right in front of you! 2On that day I will gather all the nations to fight against Jerusalem. The city will be taken, the houses plundered, and the women raped. Half the population will be taken away into captivity, and half will be left among the ruins of the city.
    3Then the LORD will go out to fight against those nations, as he has fought in times past.

Notice it's saying the same thing. The Lord will bring the nations against Jerusalem, and He, Himself, will got out and FIGHT against the Nations that come against JERUSALEM. Where is the United States in this passage? I dont' see it...because the United States at the moment would not dare to go against Jerusalem...and the only time that would happen voluntarily is if we have an anti semite as President. God Bless

Joshua

Why is the United States excluded from "ALL NATIONS?" Or doesn "All" mean "ALL?"

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

First, if we conclude that this particular scenario is at the beginning of the Trib, when Jerusalem is compassed about and about to be destroyed, then "ALL" cannot possibly mean "all-inclusive", or every nation. Why? The cadre of nations led by the anti-christ is not part of the package coming against Jerusalem...as a matter of fact, it's his intervention against those "all" nations that saves Jerusalem from destruction, and leads to the treaty and beginning of the tribulation period.

If we conclude that this scenario is the "final" battle, or Armageddon, then that takes place in the valley of Meggiddo, some 65 miles northwest of Jerusalem.  The all there "could" include the remnants of the US, but it's much more likely that it consists primarily of the Kings of the East, and some of Russia, along with some Arabic nations and the anti-christ coalition.

This is the more likely scenario, since Zechariah continues to describe the arrival of Messiah with His feet on Mt. Zion, which corresponds to the Revelation description of His arrival and subsequent destruction of the armies at Meggiddo.

The prophetic truth is God will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem.

all nations does mean all nations...however that doesn't mean that the USA is goign to be one of those nations...keep in mind that there will be 10 kingdoms with the nations including them...however if i remember correctly, there will be three of the horns of daniel to be cut off...i suspect because of rebellion. Now do you honestly think the USA will sit by and let someone rule the earth under a one world power? NO. Think my friend..think.

Joshua

The United States is not in control of the world. GOD IS!!!

I will take God's word over man's assumptions anyday.

When the OT prophesies play out to completion I will have been raptured to heaven.

As one person put in on another forum, I am a pan-millenialist. Meaning that it will all "pan-out" the way that God has it planned.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

Never said the US was...i'm saying that the US will not sit by while someone (namely the Antichrist) takes over as a dictator...man you missed that point by a mile...lol.

Joshua

When the anti-Christ comes, people will believe that he is God. The world will support him, and that will include the United States.

The anti-Christ is the one that is going to sign the peace treaty that is to bring world peace.

Do you actually believe that the US government will see through that and not side with him? I don't.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

BigD,

I agree Brother. I think that the US government will be sucked in just like every other government in the world. I doubt very seriously that we will ever see a news headline like:


It really won't matter what any government says anyway. God's plan will go forward at His appointed time REGARDLESS. AND, the world will view the Antichrist as the author of great peace. Only the serious students of Bible prophecy will know him as the Antichrist and understand what is to come. The remaining question will be, "How many that understand are already in Heaven with JESUS?" The world will swallow the plan of the Antichrist - hook, line and sinker in fisherman's terms.

Love In Christ,
Tom

II Timothy 2:11  It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:

Sooner or later ,this will take place ,but now ?I think maybe the LORD will have mercy some what because our leader loves HIM and is trying to set things right ?

Brother Gary,

I was just reflecting on what you said. I believe that our President and many other of our leaders are Christians. The people of the world will wake up one day and the BODY OF CHRIST will have been RAPTURED and taken home to heaven with JESUS. There are many and varying opinions about this, especially involving the timing and sequence of events.

Today, most of the decisions made in this world are made by lost people, some who even hate the thought of JESUS. Things will get dramatically worse after the BODY OF CHRIST is removed (RAPTURED) from this earth. Some believe that the CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST will be here either for a portion or all of the 7 year Tribulation Period. I don't think so, but my opinion is worth only 1 opinion. I think that the Holy Bible clearly teaches that we will be in Heaven when the great wrath is poured out on the people and nations of the earth.

Brother, again my opinion is only worth only 1 opinion. I think that the time is near or upon us that the CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST will be RAPTURED. That will be a day of great rejoicing for Christians, but it will be the beginning of great destruction, terror, and wrath for those who remain on the earth. There are many who will say that my post is simply like the raving of many in previous generations who have discussed the fulfillment of Bible prophesies. I would simply say that Israel wasn't a nation 100 years ago, 500 years ago, etc. Israel is now a nation, and Bible prophecy clearly addresses the generation in which Israel becomes a nation again. This generation will not pass............  That is also subject to interpretation and opinion. My opinion is that time is now or soon. 1948 plus whatever someone interprets a generation to mean. The time is only known by God. If we were to use what men might consider a generation, that time might be between 70 and 100 years, but God tells us that we won't know the time.

Brother, it is sufficient for us to KEEP LOOKING UP! with the reality of the HOPE that is JESUS within our hearts. Regardless of whether the actual time is today, 1 year, 50 years, 1000 years, there should always be an urgency in our hearts to share the GOOD NEWS with the lost.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Hebrews 4:12-13 For the word of God is living and powerful and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing apart of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in His sight, but all things are naked and opened to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.

I agree 100% ,But I believe ?Only those born of GOD and looking for HIm will leave .Many just not making HIM 100% LORD will be here to follow .They will suffer for our LORD .But it is not HIS will this takes place . The 1st wave will be honored ,I believe ? But the whole family of GOD will be together one day ! The world hates GODS KIDS .I believe any day could be the day ,HE calls us HOME .We are just passing though this world . I saw the city in space heading here in 1976 .and it was moving fast .of course I could not tell the speed .but it was in space other than ours .as there were no stars or lights .except HIS GLORY ,which was bright .lit up space around the city . You will see the rapture in your life time !Your the kings son !With all the power of a kings son .Faith moves the mountains .All things become new .What we see ?Is not TRUTH .What HE said in HIS living WORD is TRUTH .If we believe ?It MUST COME TO PASS .It can not fail .Only way ?it can not ?Is US !He bless me a couple days ago .kinda big ?

BEP
Being the US has made it a habit of trying to be the "world leader," out government could very possisbly have a big roll in bringing that "peace" treaty to fruition.

Regardless if our national leader is a believer or unbeliever, I do believe that, for political reasons, out leader would almost be foreced to sign that treaty because of the demands of the people for "world peace."

Only God knows how everything will work out and we can only speculate or assume.

Several years ago I do recall an Israelie leader say that he would sign a treaty with the devil if it would bring peace to his nation.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

Brother Gary,

I love the way that you speak of many things. YES!, the world hates God's Kids. The more we yield to God's Will and do His Work, the greater the world's hatred of us becomes. For that reason, it should make us smile when we are attacked or suffer trials when we do His Work.

Brother, I have also reflected on the Biblical descriptions of Heaven and Holy City many times. God tells us that our imagination is insufficient to realize the beauty, GLORY, peace, and joy in the places He has prepared for us. Just being completely free from the presence of the devil is almost beyond imagination. But then there is the greatest JOY to ponder, spending eternity with JESUS who loves us, died for us, and is our LIVING LORD AND SAVIOUR FOREVER.

Brother Gary, the HOPE in our hearts is REALITY. So, we can KEEP LOOKING UP! with joy in the knowledge of what will most certainly be at His appointed time.

Love In Christ,
Tom

1 Corinthians 2:9  But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

BigD,

Brother, I agree completely. Speculation about what our Christian leaders know or don't know about the Antichrist means nothing. They could be Bible scholars, and that still wouldn't alter the unfolding of Bible prophecy by a second. The Holy Bible clearly states that the world will honor the Antichrist as the bringer of great peace. We know that peace will be false, and it will usher in terrible wrath like the world has never known.

At God's appointed time, no power will be able to stop it, and Bible prophecy will be unfolded perfectly and completely.

What our President does or doesn't do will make no difference at all when God's appointed time comes. I like to think that our President is a Christian, but only God knows his heart. If he is a Christian, he will be RAPTURED along with the CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST. Regardless of whether he is a Christian or not, he will not be able to alter, delay, or hasten the unfolding of Bible prophecy. No man knows that time. Regarding that time, you are completely correct that all men know is speculation. I would go further and call it guesses.


Love In Christ,
Tom

Hebrews 9:28  So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

We can not fully understand GODS long suffer for us and GREAT LOVE .I once thought I had a disadvanage ,Because my dad died ,when I was little and had my mom and 4 sisters and did not fit in .But now I see I gained .Because GOD was my dad from a little child .I had no one but the LORD .I hated bullys and any one who hurt the weak .I think because I had been sick for a year and was hurt by a bigger kid a lot .I always loved the kids no one else liked and protected them .As GOD made me a mighty young kid .Small but fearless and a real little bull dog .But the point is ?HE takes those who are nothing and makes them something .This shows HIS great mercy and LOVE toward us .And the fram of mind ,We should have to recieve more from him .HE loves a humble ,yet fearless in TRUTh person .We do not need to be mighty to be mighty .We do not need to see with our eyes to see ?

Please read Vice President Cheney's own words on the Statement of Principles page on the Project for the New American Century at http://www.newamericancentury.org/statementofprinciples.htm .  Excerpt:  "We aim to make the case and rally support for American global leadership."

Now consider Babylon of Revelation 17:18:  18 And the woman you saw is the great city that has an empire over the kings of the earth."

Do it, get on the website for the Project for a New American Century at http://www.newamericancentury.org/ and read all about this administration's plans (Cheney, Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz) to literally rule the earth.  Then read all about Babylon again.  Should you wonder?  No one else rules over the earth but the U.S., by it's own admission.  No one else on earth has world domination as its goal right now.  If you doubt that, again, read Cheney's group's own words on the file http://www.newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf - don't just take it from me.  Let them speak for themselves.

Ask yourself:  is it moral, to lust to rule the world?

One more thing about Babylon:  in the Encyclopedia Britannica's history of banking (look under "bank"), the first known bank was in the temples of Babylon, where people hid money in hopes the idols would preserve it.  Now think:  the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund are seated in the United States.  Doesn't this tell us something?

America is not the rebuilt Babylon. The rebuilt Babylon is Rome, which is the capitol city of the revived Roman empire - the European Union.

Rev 17:7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.  

Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.  

Rev 17:9 And here [is] the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.  
Rome is the only city on earth which is built on seven mountains.

Rev 18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast [it] into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.  

 This verse describes a meteor hurled into the sea America has no sea. Rome (Italy) is surrounded by seas.
The meteor most likely causes a huge tsunami which causes the city to be wiped out. We all know how devestating a tsunami can be.

 Rev 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.  

Right now, the E.U. has many member countries - however, there are only ten permanant members. This number may or may not change, but at the time of these verses, there are ten.

Bronzesnake

Good work, if you already read the information on the "Project for a New American Century" website - but by the elapsed time, I don't think you could have.

I believe you are partly right:  1Pe 5:13 - "She who is in Babylon, also chosen, sends you greetings, as does Mark, my son. "  Spiritual entities change locales in Scripture.  I believe you may learn that the writer of this verse meant Rome when he cited Babylon.  Well, location not being fixed except for Israel, it can change again.

Please take a look at the international power structure as described by Vice President Cheney himself - in his owned signed document together with others of the current administration - at http://www.newamericancentury.org/statementofprinciples.htm .   Because you are mistaken about current international power/economic dynamics.  The United States is on top and is the only candidate to satisfy the full effects of prophecies about Babylon at this time.
 

Cactusflower,

That was an interesting political piece to read, but it has nothing to do with Bible prophecy. A beginner in the study of Bible prophecy knows the identity of Babylon, and it isn't in this hemisphere. So, I suggest that you stick to politics, not Bible prophecy.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 37:23  The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD: and he delighteth in his way.

Ouch, but to the point! ;D

There is a time to set the milk aside and bring out the meat.

 ;) ;)

Mecca is said to be on seven hills.

Istanbul Turkey is said to be on seven hills, although it look more like a plain.

What about the seven Mountains of Jerusalem.

Rome isn't the only city on seven hillsMountains. ;D

Ouch!  :P

I gues you think Christians should have an "anything" goes attitude huh?

Bronzesnake

That is true, however, only one city has for more than 2000 years been known as the city on seven hills. That city is Rome. The Catholic Encyclopedia states: "It is within the city of Rome, called the city of seven hills, that the entire area of Vatican State proper is now confined" (The Catholic Encyclopedia, Thomas Nelson, 1976, s.v. "Rome").

Even Catholic apologist Karl Keating admits that Rome has long been known as Babylon. Keating claims that Peter's statement "The church here in Babylon ... sends you her greeting" (from 1 Peter 5:13) proves that Peter was writing from Rome. He explains further:

"Babylon is a code word for Rome. It is used that way six times in the last book of the Bible (four of the six are in chapters 17 and 18) and in extrabiblical works such as Syblling Oracles (5, 159f.), and Apocalypse of Baruch (ii, 1), and 4 Esdras (3:1).

"Eusebius Pamphilius, writing about 303, noted that `it is said that Peter's first epistle ... was composed at Rome itself; and that he himself indicates this, referring to the city figuratively as Babylon" (Karl Keating, Catholicism and Fundamentalism: The Attack on "Romanism" by "Bible Christians," Kgnatius Press, 1988, p. 200).

 There is little doubt that the city is Rome.

Bronzesnake

Bronzesnake,

Brother, you are obviously correct. Rome is the Babylon of Bible Prophecy.

What irks me is how some folks twist and distort Bible Prophecy trying to make it fit the U.S., and invariably the next step is calling George Bush the anti-Christ. Many political groups tried to use this nonsense to impact the last election, but it just didn't fly because the truth was to easy to find. I'm certainly not trying to hint that George Bush is anywhere near perfect, but I would state in certainty that he is NOT the anti-Christ. What bothers me most is the Bible being abused and the attempt to link the Holy Bible with something that is totally false.

The biggest problem with these wild tales is politicians and political parties trying to use something they know almost nothing about - The Holy Bible. The same would be true of anarchists and other anti-government groups trying to do the same thing. Many wild tales and conspiracy theories have been around for many years, and they are so easy to dismiss as total garbage that it's silly to keep repeating them. But, I guess that some people buy this nonsense.

Love In Christ,
Tom

I Corinthians 1:9  God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

Sure everyone knows that Rome sits on seven hills. Rome was known as "the city on seven hills" or "the seven hilled city" sometime in the 40's BC. I was not trying to work you up, only pointing out that Rome isn't the only city on seven hills.

There is little evidence to support these contentions since the context of 1 Peter 5:13 is not figurative in style, nor is there historical evidence from the first two centuries to indicate that Peter was ever in Rome or ever served as the leader of the Roman Church.
Still other scholars contend that Peter penned these words from the small, frist-century town of Babylon that was located on the Euphrates river in what is modern-day Iraq.

You should read 4 Ezra or 2 Esdras chapter 3 (http://nttsuperplus.com/A2ESDRA3.htm) before using it as proof. I could be wrong, but it seems to me its more on facts and philosophy, not prophecy.


Its ludicrous every time the image of Nebuchadnezzar is standing on one leg in Europe when everyone knows there was a Political and a Religion spilt into east and west of the Roman Empire. ;D

What makes you think I was "worked up"?

 Seems logical to consider the fact that the "Roman Catholic" Church was not founded in Iraq. Therefore - you can logically place Peter in Rome as opposed to Iraq.

Bronzesnake

At_The_Cross,

This might be somewhat useful for someone's political agenda or as a partial descriptor for the Catholic Church, but it can't be twisted or distorted far enough for the Babylon of Bible Prophecy to be the U.S. The center stage of end of age Bible Prophecy is NOT in this hemisphere. The center stage will be and most obviously is the Middle East, Israel, Jerusalem, and Rome. I really don't pay attention to most politicians or political groups unless they abuse the Holy Bible in trying to obtain their objectives. Many political groups are already more than corrupt without them also butchering the Holy Bible for their purposes. All they accomplish with Christians who have more than a beginner's knowledge of the Holy Bible is boldly advertise they are frauds, false, bogus, and of no use as politicians either.

So, the political group's purpose of manipulating Christians backfires, and they quickly achieve the opposite of what they wanted to do. They would actually have a much better chance if they stuck to the dirty game of politics and left the Holy Bible out of it. Christians aren't so dumb that they buy everything that comes down the pike, especially if someone blatantly abuses the Holy Bible while trying to sell a load of political garbage.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Titus 2:13  Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Why couldn't the seven heads of the beast of Revelation 13 be the seven continents?

A global kingdom.

Do you think that is a possibility?



(And, BTW, nice to meet you!) :)

I think they are leaders of 7 nations ,is this how you see it ?

Very interesting but there are a few things I wanted to point out.  It is common for people to say that Daniel chapter 7 is speaking about 4 different kingdoms that exist each in succession to one another.  One falls and another rises.  However if you read a key verse in this chapter you can see that these kingdoms all exist and are in power at the return of The Ancient of Days.


Here we see that these other beasts have their power taken from them at the return of the Son of Man.  Preceding this verse we see the destruction of this fourth great and terrible beast and the little horn’s deliverance to the burning flame.  This coincides with the events spoken of by John in Revelation.  Moreover we see these same four beasts together as one in Revelation which is the symbol of their attempt at unity.  Let’s take a closer look.

You speak of Nebuchadnezzar’s dream.  In his dream he is seeing the existence of all the major kingdoms that must exist up to the return of The Messiah.  This is where your historical kingdoms come from starting with Babylon.  Rome and its split are seen in the legs of iron.  Then Daniel goes on while interpreting the dream to speak of the time of the toes which are the kingdoms which shall arise after the fall of the Roman Empire.


The kingdom that is divided is Rome.  After its fall the world falls into chaos and from these ashes rise the many kingdoms which are the feet and toes, some weak and some strong.


Here we see the picture of the emerging world scene after the fall of Rome.  Some nations would rise to be strong and others would be weak.  Many would mingle with one another but they would not cleave together even as iron and clay do not mix.  We definitely see this with all the racism and elitism that goes on in the world and has been for some time.  Nations make and break treaties as they see it benefiting them.  The key here is the next verse.


In the days of the many kingdoms the God of heaven will set up His permanent kingdom and He shall consume these kingdoms.  Not all the kingdoms will be destroyed.  This is the time of the feet and toes, the time of the many kingdoms that arose from the ashes of a fallen Roman Empire.  It is this time period which Daniel is speaking about in Chapter 7.  These beasts or kingdoms arise in the earth among the people during the time of the feet and toes, or the time of the many kingdoms.  These four great beasts exist at the time of the return of The Ancient of Days.  Let’s look at these more closely.

Now sea, or water, is often used as a symbol for people.  Daniel is describing the rising of nations among different peoples.  These four nations, or kingdoms, rise up and are different from one another.


Now these are four primary kingdoms that exercise major global influence and play a key role in the end times and will exist at the return of The Messiah.  Let us reference John’s Revelation.


Now John is describing “a beast” which rises out of the sea, or rises among the people.  This beast is a conglomeration of all four beasts of Daniel.  It has the 10 horns from the fourth beast of Daniel, it has the mouth of a Lion from the first, the feet of a bear from the second and the beast was like unto a leopard, the third beast kingdom of Daniel.  This beast has seven heads.  It we look at Daniel we see the head of the Lion, the head of the bear, the 4 heads of the leopard and the head of the fourth beast which is not likened to any beast in nature.  There are your seven heads.  John’s beast is tied to what is called “The Great Tribulation” period.  This means that this beast exists as a whole at the time of the end.  Daniel's beasts also exist because he goes on to tell us in Dan 7:9-12 what happens at the return of The Ancient of Days.


Again Daniel testifies that these beasts are in power at the Return of The Ancient of Days.  Their thrones are cast down at His return, not before.  In other words their power is stripped from them but he goes on to say that these other beasts will have their lives prolonged for a season.  This is not describing kingdoms that rose and fell before the return of The Messiah as their power is taken from them at His return.  They do not fall as a result of moral decay and wars with barbarians.  They do not simply erode over time or fade out of existence.  Daniel 7:9 is describing the last part of Nebuchadnezzar’s dream.


The “stone” that “was cut out without hands” is a symbol for the God of heaven as He has no creator, no beginning nor ending of days.  He smites the “feet” of the image and becomes a "great mountain".  When Daniel provides the interpretation he explains what this is symbolizing.  In verses 42 – 44 Daniel explains that it is during the time of the feet and toes, the time of the many kingdoms, that the God of heaven will set up His kingdom (mountain).  This is why the “stone” is shown striking the “feet”.  Since Daniel chapter 7 describes these beasts as having their power taken from them at the return of The Ancient of Days then we know he is speaking about the time and kingdoms of the feet and toes from Nebuchadnezzar’s dream because the other empires in Nebuchadnezzar’s dream all fall before the return of The Messiah.

By your reply trying to explain that its Rome. The only place I disagreed with you was Rome being the only city on seven mountains. But you can add 1 Peter 5:13 as a disagreement for Babylon being in code for Rome.


No, 1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. John speaks of mystery Babylon, Peter speaks only of Babylon, one is a mystery, the other is face value, the Lord didn't say "go ye into all of Rome" but rather Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.  Paul tells us more of his journey in Galatians 1:17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus. 1:18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days. Very little is said about Peter's journeys, symbolic/code for Rome...I don't agree with that.


i.e. Senator J. Kerry. The discrepancy is in ones own interpretation, but that would be the same as pre, med or post Rapture, as you know some have different views and beliefs. I don't agree with a one thousand and nine hundred plus year gap between the 69th and 70th week, but NONE of you has forced your views on me. The only thing I've seen is "points of view and beliefs" on the matter, I don't see anything in scripture to change my mind. Also, I don't teach the Mystery Babylon is the USA!!


John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. 15:17 These things I command you, that ye love one another. 15:18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.


Daniel 7:3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.

Honestly, both Babylon, Medes-Persians were conquered and the Greeks melted into the Roman Empire, bereft of their former power. Daniel 2:32 [...], his belly and his thighs of brass, 2:33 His legs of iron, [...]. The legs of Iron is after the split. Daniel 7:12 is refering to Daniel 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.


Daniel 2:34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. 2:35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.



Agreed.



Not so, Rome started in the brass until its split between east and west. Although there was a split in the political and another in religion, Daniel is speaking of the political until the feet, which continues until the Lord's return. My belief is religion(clay) and political(iron).



In the Old Testament clay is used for the people also, Isaiah 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

While this may be true it does not answer the question of how these kingdoms could be the ones spoken of when the ones spoken of will be in power when The Messiah returns.  Being conquered, scattered or annihilated by another worldly power doesn’t quite fit the description given by Daniel of these beasts nor of the fact that their power is stripped by The Ancient of Days at His return not by Rome or another conquering power.



The point I was making here was that the legs of Iron show the split of the Roman Empire.  I was not implying that Rome is singularly represented by the legs of iron.  Even so this doesn’t address the actual point of my post.



Do you think the symbol of the eagle or eagle’s wings are meant to be interpreted the same everywhere the symbol is used?  Is Rev 12:14 to be interpreted the same as Jer 49:22?  Does context ever enter into proper interpretation?

Pulling out one verse to meet your wants wouldn't answer anything nor does it point anything out. So lets start at the beginning of Daniel chapter 7 and you can explain your reasoning. I used reference points for Daniel chapter 2, but the analogy doesn't seem to be the same from what your saying.


A twist of words!


How much of the book of Revelation is quoted word for word from other books of the Bible? I believe I used the analogy of BOTH Daniel chapter 2 and 7 as the same! Do ten toes and ten horns mean or represent the same thing?

In what way?  This is a common tactic to avoid discussing the real issue being presented.  Focusing on your misinterpretation of what I said does not make your argument nor does it break mine.  Personally I do not wish to simply let this degenerate into a game of nitpicking.  What I said and what you thought I said has no relevance to the actual point I made in the first place so there is no point in discussing this play on words any further.  The real issue is the fact that I do not agree with your interpretation of Chapter 7 of Daniel.  I presented my reasons why.  If you want to argue (and I do not mean fight) then please focus on that point as that was the point of my post.  Let us remember that we can discuss differing views and even disagree with brotherly love.  If anything I said was taken to be hostile then I apologize as that was not my intent.


I certainly did not pull only one verse.  However I have no problem starting at the beginning of Chapter 7 and explaining my reasoning.  I think the first 2 verses are self explanatory so let’s start at verse 3.


I think we can agree that these verses are talking about nations that will rise.  He describes each beast.  I think we can agree that the fourth beast he describes is the beast kingdom from which the little horn (or Anti-Christ as most call him) comes (verse 8 ).  I presume that none of this is in dispute so I will not go into any more detail about any of this at this point.  Now it lists each beast that rises and the indication is that this fourth beast is the final kingdom to rise.  Just a note, but it never says the others fell at any time.  Now the entire focus of this Chapter of Daniel is on these 4 beast kingdoms and probably most of it is on this fourth great and terrible beast and the little horn which comes from it.  The next verse is key.


Now again I will take it that we agree this verse is talking about the return of The Messiah.  This is the same battle that John describes in Rev 19:19-21.  This verse starts out by telling us that the thrones were cast down.  This plural use of the word indicates that this is not speaking about just one governmental power or entity.  Since the context of this Chapter as established in its beginning leads us to understand it is talking about these 4 major beast kingdoms, then we can conclude logically that the thrones of which he is speaking are the thrones of these 4 beast kingdoms.  Let us continue on.


These verses are again describing the end of the little horn and his fate.  I do not think there is any disagreement here.  However the next verse is once again important.


Now just in case anyone thought that thrones was a misprint then please explain what other beasts are being spoken about here?  Again this is plural and if we read it in context of the Chapter as a whole it can only be speaking about the other beast kingdoms.  Now the time and manner of their casting down is clearly explained in verses 9-11.  They are cast down when the Ancient of Days appears on the scene, the same time that the little horn meets his fate.  This precludes any possibility that they were conquered or otherwise obliterated prior to the return of The Messiah.  For them to have their dominion stripped at His return they must have it when He returns.  Thus it is logical to conclude that this is not speaking about ancient kingdoms lost to antiquity.  This is why John’s Revelation fits so well.  Daniel sees them rising as separate nations while John sees them as they attempt to merge into one system.

Here John describes his seven headed beast which sounds like a freak mutant.  However he describes it as a conglomeration of all 4 beasts of Daniel.  Each beast of Daniel is represented in this one beast of Revelation.  This is at the rise of the little horn and the time of the end.


This is that same time described in Daniel 7:9-11.  These kings of the earth follow the beast into battle.  This is the time when these kingdoms that dominate the earth shall lose their power.  The beast and false prophet are cast alive into the lake of fire and the rest of the survivors, those from the rest of the beasts, enter into a different time.  This is the dawn of the Day of The Lord.  This is the dawn of the millennium.  After this Daniel 7:13-14 go on to describe the establishment of The Messiah’s kingdom on earth.  This is the same time that Nebuchadnezzar saw in his dream.


The stone that was cut out without hands is representative of The God of heaven.  The stone smashing the feet represents both the event and the timing of the event.  This is the symbolism describing The Messiah’s return and the stripping of these worldly kingdoms of their dominion and He does it at the time of the end, the time of the feet and toes.  This is what Daniel makes clear when he interprets this image for Nebuchadnezzar.  He interprets the different parts of the statue as representing different kingdoms and empires that will rise and fall over time beginning with Nebuchadnezzar and Babylon (Dan 2:36-40).  Then Daniel gets to the part of the interpretation explaining the feet and toes.  He speaks of a kingdom (the conglomerated beast kingdom John saw in Revelation) that is both strong and broken.  They try to mix but it does not stand.  The people never truly unite.  Then Daniel says this:


In the days of what kings?  In the days of the kings who exist at the time of the end, the kingdoms which make up the feet and toes, the kingdoms which will try to merge into John’s seven headed beast of Revelation.  Remember he is speaking about the feet and toes as he leads into this verse.  Again when read in context we see that he is clearly speaking about the time of the feet and toes, the time of the end.  And in the days that these kings stand will The Ancient of Days return to set up His kingdom.  This is how we get a frame of reference for Daniel Chapter 7 and how it fits perfectly in with Nebuchadnezzar’s dream.



As long as the context is the same, and it is in both Daniel and Revelation, then yes they do mean the same thing.  I will stop here for now.

In your own words...

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Revelation 17:7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.
Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
Revelation 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
Revelation 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
Revelation 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.


Revelation 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

Yes and once again you take my words out of context.  Yet this is exactly how many people choose to read the Bible.


Mind explaining the verses?  There are different views on the proper translation as well as interpretation of these verses.  I will start with the fact that it states “And there are seven kings” which in the KJV seem to indicate that in addition to the seven heads there are also seven kings.  Just a thought but perhaps this is why John began these verses with “And here is the mind which hath wisdom”.


Once again a little explanation please.  You have taken my quote which is referring to Daniel and jumped to Revelation to give an answer.  The problem is they are not referring to the same things.  It’s like using an English novel to solve problems in a Chemistry class.  What are the thrones spoken of in Daniel Chapter 7 referring to?  More so what beasts is Daniel referring to when he speaks of the “rest of the beasts” having their dominion taken from them?  These 10 horns which you have referenced are only part of one beast, the fourth beast of Daniel.  They are not in and of themselves beasts.

Not at all, I trust in the Word of God.



Yes I did. Glory be to God.




Thank you.

Funny I was at tribulationforce and another site and they are talking about these same things . We are one in the LORd .

Well, at this point I can no longer follow what exactly it is you're trying to say so you're welcome ;D.

Is the USA in Prophecy of the Bible?
This you can be sure of as the stars are in the heavens.

I thought you might enjoy this as a dream I had put me on to some clues right after Pope John Paul II had died. Here is concrete proof we are at the gate of Omega (The Second Coming and Return, and End of the Piscean Age) and nearing Revelation 12:12 - 13:9.

2 Thessalonians 2:5-12 (Pope John Paul II held this lawlessness back he is now passed and the lie is spreading like wildfires. No one but God can stop this.)
 
We are in this for sure as there will be no sitting this one out.


My Dream on Sunday April 3, 2005

      I am standing in a beautiful green meadow full of Sunflowers and Daises on a brisk, cool sunlit spring day. Immediately I notice the sensation of the fresh, light air as it gently passes by inviting me to walk down a narrow rock pathway that mystically appears before my eyes. As I begin to walk down this path step by step the image of a small pool of water emerges glistening like a sea of crystal in the sunlight. Finally as I reach the end of this path three beautiful men appear dressed in fine white and silver linens having golden sachets with undecipherable writing draped across them. While looking upon their brilliance which was like soft white moon light glittering in white sands one of them quietly motions to the water inviting me to watch. As my eyes slowly focus upon the water the image of many fishes swimming around emerges but in a short time the image becomes murky, cloudy and then eventually fades. At that moment I saw ripples on the water as soft, white rain drops fell slowly down. But wait… I thought there is not a cloud in the sky. It was in that moment when I finally realized it was the tears of the three that were gazing there with me.

The Interpretation of the Dream I had on Sunday April 3, 2005:

   The dream starts with me standing in an open field surrounded by beautiful flowers on a bright sunlit, spring day. This to me is symbolic of the nature of God’s great creation in all its beauty and splendor illuminated by the infernal powers of the life giving suns rays which is the very life force of our solar system. Within this beautiful and spacious scene there appeared a walkway of stone in which I was invited to ascend down. This path made of earthen stone is symbolic of the journey of life thru which each one of us continually passes thru upon the earth. We do this by divine design and plan which intends for us to reach our destination, discovering the mysteries of life and of the creation along the way. These mysteries thru our life begin to unfold before our very senses revealing the very essence of all that is including the nature of our own being. When considering this path of life it became apparent to me that even the stars in heaven like all ordained animate life follow a given course leading to an intended destination over time and space. This passageway we travel is designed to put all things in motion thru our existence eventually bringing full circle by degree the nature and mysteries of all things past, present and future. While descending this path in my dream a small pool of water emerges appearing like the Mists of the Amethyst Crystal Sea glistening in the sunlight. While I was contemplating this mystery I realized that when I saw the planet earth from space for the first time on television it appeared like a beautiful Sea of Crystal hovering in the perfect peace of our solar system. Looking up from earth into this stellar Crystal Sea at night and in the spring season we find the oceans of life unfold where Hydra mystically appears to our south swimming in those stellar waters of abundance. If you observe Hydra at the right time while looking towards heavens gate (North Pole Star Polaris), you see Ursa Major (the Big Dipper) pouring out mystical and heavenly fountains of water into this sea which appears below the elliptic line. This vision teaches us that the gateway of heaven (Polaris, Genesis 1:1) pours forth the life giving crystal fountains which sustain this great creation we call earth. This heavenly fountain poured fourth from heavens gate symbolizes the spiritual form of our existence upon the face of the earth. For if we look we can see from the great fountain head (Polaris) these fountains flowing down and over the Big Dipper, thru the Lion’s Tail (Denebola, Beta Leonis) and into the head of Virgo (Zavijava, Beta Virginis) where the magic of life is found.  This pouring fourth of water is symbolic of the earthly woman (Virgo the virgin) producing thru her fruitfulness the seed pods of life that eventually thru many seasons spawn the ears of corn and wheat that she holds in her left hand (Spica, Alpha Virginis). It is in this process where the life giving fountain from Virgo’s head can be seen running over into Crater the cup giving birth to our own fountain of youth and our own conception. I realized immediately that in this cup lies the image of the crystal clear waters (or fountains) of the pool in my dream in which those spiritual fishes were swimming. These waters tell of the youthfulness of our creation upon its earthly conception (Genesis 1:1-28).  When I see the big picture I am reminded of the words of St. John who wrote (Revelation 4:6) “Also before the throne was what looked like a sea of glass, clear as crystal. “ which is our spirit manifested in the Crystal Sea of life.

Just as the spiritual fountain (or water) is symbolized in the heavens so is the physical. In the stellar constellation of Pisces we see the multitude of the seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Genesis 1:28, Genesis 48:26, Ezekiel 47:9). These nations comprised of many peoples were told by GOD to be fruitful and multiply upon the earth partaking of the fresh water of the rivers (Eridanus) on the earth.  This brings us to the symbolism of the fishes that are swimming in the fresh waters of this earth which is the spiritual man manifested in physical form born of those same life giving fountains of Virgo. It is widely accepted that the nature of the fishes in Pisces is symbolic of the multitudes that were promised to Abraham by GOD whose posterity would literally be as great and numerous as the stars in heaven. We can see God’s promise to Abraham being recorded thru the message written upon the Crystal Sea of heaven in which the stellar constellations of the two fishes Pisces reside. Here we see everything that is of the physical earth and its existence bound by a knot (Al Rischa, Alpha Piscium) and leading us closer to or away from GOD and his promise of abundant life. If we obey GOD thru his commandments we will enjoy the many blessings of his work and literally multiply and prosper like fish in abundant waters.

End of Part I

You will see him coming in the East on a Cloud of Glory and not in a Car, Airplane or Ship! (Mark 13:5-26, Ezekiel 43:1-5)

References:

http://skyandtelescope.com/observing/skychart/skychart.asp (Interactive Sky Chart)
http://www.winshop.com.au/annew/cons.html (Constellation Index)
E. W. Bullinger 1893 (The Whitness of the Stars and their anchient origins.)

Is the USA in Prophecy of the Bible?
This you can be sure of as the stars are in the heavens.

Part II

In my dream I realized that the waters of Pisces where the fish are physically bound together were symbolic of the murky waters of earth that eventually became cloudy and eventually fade. Once we are conceived and become manifested in physical form our crystal clear water of life begins to turn murky as we begin to encounter those earthly storms and trials of the raging fresh waters. These storms of the physical can either place us on a path which is back to GOD or detour us away from him. The only stipulation to this message which was recorded for Abraham was to obey the holy covenant (commandments).  (Genesis 17, Leviticus 26:42, Jeremiah 25:15, Isaiah 51:22).

In the image of this dream it is easy to see thru Pisces the symbolism of the murky waters in which the fishes were swimming becoming cloudy and fading. This to me is also significant of a great falling which eventually leads us to experience the tides of his physical wrath. These tides emerging into the physical can upset the natural balance of the fishes recoiling upon them like a cobra just before he strikes. The reflux of these tides would create an imbalance the likes of which has never been seen from the beginning of the creation of earth. The earth is not only ours but a prized jewel in the hands of God. It is his creation and our responsibility to care fore since it was given to us to sustain our very physical essence and our posterity.

Every action in the physical recoils back like reflux thus affecting all that is.  

Because we are made up of all that is we share a fractional part of the whole physical plane on earth thus becoming directly connected thru those sustaining bands we see in the fishes of Pisces.  This is the exact nature of our existence on earth. If we thru arrogance try to sever or upset the band it recoils upon us as a reminder of our place in the fraction part. This insures that our physical body will never exceed all that is ours to have thru Gods spirit of establishment and ordnance of all things below and earthly (symbolic of the knot and bands of Pisces). I should mention for clarity sake that also in this knot we see the spiritual and physical consciousness meet giving the sense of our fractional part of his plan. Without the fountains of spirit we are only a measure of all that forms the physical earth and are doomed never to be more than an earthly presence that once appeared only to fade like the mists of the sea.      

End of Part II  

Part III

In the final part of this dream I saw droplets of crystal water falling down upon the pool of cloudy, fading water where the fishes were swimming. This is symbolic of the waters of iniquity, defiled and made impure by man and of his disobedience thru time. The likes of which caused the three standing there looking upon it great sadness. This sadness is symbolic of man not following the plan and also knowing what has been decreed by proclamation from the beginning of time. These conditions were foretold by the prophet Jeremiah and St. John which would eventually bring about and arouse Omega God the great ‘I am’. The wrath of Omega ‘I am’ would be like the very air we breathe devouring us from the inside out with one breath. It is true that God is love but just as all things are his so is his divine nature. It was Alpha ‘I am’ that crated water and fire and these elements in part are of the essence of his very nature. Can you imagine being able to speak something from an infinite void into physical existence? I ask now just why then do we not treat these very elements as if they were part of him and ourselves. For if he so desired these very things could devour everything in an instant collapsing into the void from where it came.  When we create an imbalance it will automatically right overtime but at the cost of our own mistake. This is part of his divine plan for all of us to learn and experience. What I mean here is if such a mistake is done repeatedly it would be equivocal to hitting ourselves in the head repeatedly with a hammer only to receive a headache while having no knowledge of aspirin. Nothing is gained thru this experiment except punishment for having done it which is the headache and eventually the remedy.

I think I have said enough on this to bring into the light the ramifications of our actions in the physical plane of existence.

We now stand against the wall with our massive hammers having yet seen the nail.


Alpha and Omega the Aries and Pisces Connection:

Pisces has become identified with Christ Jesus as the ‘First Fish’ (the spirit of truth and light) who was born after the March equinox point had moved from Aries back into Pisces (Al Rischa, Alpha Pisces) thus marking the transition to this present age. Around 7 BC, the 1st point of Aries at the vernal equinox, moved from Aries to the stars of the Fishes near Alpha Pisces , Al Rischa which means the binding point or knot. It is interesting to mention that from here we see a beast of the sea Cetus (Leviathan) going forth traveling east to west under water reaching to the 1st degree point of Aries by Beta Cetus. Due to the precession of the equinoxes; the vernal equinox is now located in a region south of Omega Pisces, in the tail of the southwestern (second) fish. This point now being the 1st degree of Aries, and also the Greenwich of the Sky afford Omega Pisces (southern fish tail) to become ‘the Leaders of the Celestial Host’. For God said "I am the Alpha and the Omega, who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty." (Revelation 1:8) this is proof we are at the door of the return of Omega ‘who is to come’. The first degree points of Aries symbolize the beginning of life brought by the spring season and the life force governed by God which sustains all. Alpha and Omega Pisces thus form the southern band that bind the fish to earth’s waters and is under his direction which is symbolic of our physical existence and the spring season above and below the elliptic. The current vernal point (March 20th 2005 12:33 GMT) is right in the tail of the southwestern (second fish) “Tau Upsalon Phi Omega Nu” where the sun entered the 30th degree of Pisces just to the east of Omega Pisces (2ARI35 – Tail of Second Fish). We can expect that Leviathan to rise from the watery depths and begin the pouring fourth of the Southwest Pacific waters upon the physical earth. Leviathan breaks out thru the strong moist winds of the South Pacific Ocean and thus creating his wake and assaults.  

End of Part III      

References:

http://skyandtelescope.com/observing/skychart/skychart.asp (Interactive Sky Chart)
http://www.winshop.com.au/annew/cons.html (Constellation Index)
E. W. Bullinger 1893 (The Whitness of the Stars and their anchient origins.)

Is the USA in Prophecy of the Bible?
This you can be sure of as the stars are in the heavens.

Part IV        

The Hybrid Eclipse of April 8 2005:

On Friday April 8, 2005 around 18:54 GMT there was a Hybrid Solar Eclipse visible in the south western hemisphere of the Americas and at its climax (totality) in the South Pacific Ocean. This form of eclipse (‘Hybrid’) only occurs about every 365 years give or take. If you look at this event in detail you can find many interesting factors as the particular positioning of the planets namely the Sun, Moon (conjunction, eclipse) combined with Venus and Mercury are significantly placed in the constellation of Pisces the fishes directly over the Americas. I have already mentioned how Pisces historically has affected and ruled the affairs of nations. But this event seems to be directed at the southwest (2nd fish) since at this time it will be visible directly over the Americas and the Pacific Ocean. The message here is clear since the planet Mercury at approximately 11:23 GMT becomes the morning star at the second degree of Aries (Omega Pisces), which is now ‘The Leader of the Celestial Hosts’. This is significant because scripturally Christ Jesus himself has said:

"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."  
Revelation 22:16

This messenger leaves little to question as he is placed as the celestial messenger for us all to behold and observe.  This sign combined with that of Aquarius and Uranus (waves of water) in the 9th degree of Pisces (Delta Aquarius) and setting to the west indicates the southwest waters (Pacific Ocean) of the southwest fishes “The Record of the Pouring Fourth.” I also want to mention the special aspects of Neptune and Mars to the pole star Polaris comprising a line thru Cepheus (The house of 'The Alchemy of Sulfur and Arts') the crowned King with 7 Globes upon his head and refer us to Alpha Aquarius (SandalMelik) Neptune and Beta Aquarius (SandalSuud) Mars which tell us of the ‘Return of the Pourer Out’.  


"I will open rivers in high places,
and fountains in the midst of the valleys;
I will make the wilderness a pool of water,
and the dry land springs of water."
Isaiah 41:18

Above the planet Mercury (transiting near 2nd degree point of Aries, Omega Pisces) and in the stars of the second fish is ‘The Leader of the Celestial Hosts’. This pentacle (5 point star) has a Goat head or DELTA at its point and consists of a total of seven stars starting with Omega Pisces moving west along the elliptic. The message here is below the head of Andromeda (Alpha Andromeda) whom lies to the southwest of the throne of Cassiopeia which is in the house of Cepheus (Gamma Cepheus, in the peak of ‘The Alchemy of Sulfur’, DELTA) and sits before the heavenly gate (Polaris) and below the tail of the Dragon (Draco) finally resting in the southwest corner of the Pacific Ocean directly over Cetus (Leviathan). These seven stars (Andromeda’s crown) comprise the body of the 2nd fish of Pisces moving from Omega Pisces west.
(Revelation 12)

The 7 Heads are 7 hills on which the woman sits and 7 Kings (Cassiopia wife of Cepheus the King and mother of Andromeda the one with blasphemous names at her feet.)
(Revelation 17:9-18)

The Star of Earth:

With this eclipse combined with that of Leo the Lion (29 degree point, Regulus) ascending from the East there is no doubt that the Lion of Judah, does prevail here (Revelation 5:1-5). The brightest star, Alpha (on the ecliptic), marks the heart of the Lion whose ancient name is Regulus, which means treading under foot thru time. Its is Jesus the Lion of Judah that treaded down that old serpent, Hydra (the mother of all evil) by the pouring out (Pi Mentekeon) the waters from heaven (Polaris) thru the Dippers (Ursa Major and Minor) into the cup of Crater (God’s wrath) which is attached to the back of the serpant (Hydra) which has many heads (Satan and his many legions of demons). This foretells of God’s divine cup pouring out his spirit over the disobedient and wicked serpent once more (Job 3, Isaiah 27, 28:2, Psalms 74:13-15, Jeremiah 51:14-16, Jeremiah 10:13).This pouring out will bring forth waters upon the fishes which deliver tides (ripples) upon them. For it was written by Jeremiah that when the Lord God Almighty thunders the waters in the heavens roar as he makes the clouds and rains rise from the ends of the earth.

This is proven true of his nature because today the heavens roar with the heart of the Lion rising from the eastern end of this earth with the solar eclipse in Pisces (19 degree of Aries) the sign of the Ram. It is in this degree of the elliptic that we see the rise of the Great Dragon (Delta Draco) to the far north east of this point of Aries directly above the elliptic at the time of the totality of this eclipse. This rising dragon of north east will be treading down on the throne and standing upon the blasphemous names of Andromeda (feet) and Cassiopeia (the house of Cepheus) with its mouth and tail. There are blasphemous names (fallen angels) attached to Andromeda’s feet (Camelopardalis, the leopard camel under her left foot) can be seen directly above the eclipse to the north and east of Omega Pisces. At her right foot and hand is Cassiopeia (the earthly throne) and the house of Cepheus (the crowned one with the seven globes upon his head), which is the house of ‘The Alchemy of Sulfur and the Arts’. These areas of the heavens depict the earthly throne (Beast) that is set below heavens gate (Polaris) which is surrounded above and below by other beasts (Revelation 13) that provoke the manifestation of the glory of God (the return at the eastern gate) whom will descend by reversing degree (rollback of the elliptic).

End of Part IV

References:

http://skyandtelescope.com/observing/skychart/skychart.asp (Interactive Sky Chart)
http://www.winshop.com.au/annew/cons.html (Constellation Index)
E. W. Bullinger 1893 (The Whitness of the Stars and their anchient origins.)

Is the USA in Prophecy of the Bible?
This you can be sure of as the stars are in the heavens.

Part V  

God’s divine plan:

      God’s divine plan is of the pouring fourth of his cup (Crater) thus manifesting the return of our Lord Jesus Christ (Leo) which is soon to come to trample the serpent (Hydra) with the cross of Sextans thru the heart. We can see this message in the tail of Leo (Denebola) and in the head of Virgo thru which lies one mystery of the Sphinx (10 Virgo) the road of the descent of the Pharaohs of Egypt and of the Star of David. The Sphinx tells of the coming harvest of the ears of corn or wheat each season and of those that Virgo pours out into this earth thru the union of male and female. It is through the fruitfulness of the woman (Mary) and by the tail and body of the Lion (which goes fourth and returns) that the springs of life flow. We also see in the going forth of that Lion in time (Regulus, Alpha Leo) and being defeated on the cross (Sextan of Urania, the Trinity standing on Alphard, Alpha Hydra) that the serpent (Satan and his demons, Hydra’s spirits) are punished and brought down before the feet of the Lion (Regulus) and trodden upon thru the cup of God’s wrath Crater which is God literally pouring this down on his head. This is the power which was given by birthright thru the body of the Lion which was Christ Jesus (Lion of Judah) and the fruitfulness of the woman (Virgo, Mary). We now stand at the door and await this glorious return of Omega Pisces. In the beginning the constellations were ordained and placed among the stars for all to see (Proverbs 3:19-26, Isaiah 45:12). Obviously few have ever looked up and paid attention to see God’s messages there and this is just one of those mysteries of life on this earth. This is the majesty of the Lord God of Hosts and the testimony of the wondrous works of his hands which he himself marshaled from the beginning of all time relative to earth. When the Lord thunders who shall not fear or marvel at the mighty works of his hands in which all things are brought to completion and are fulfilled before him. Literally!


For it was written upon the heavens and the earth from the beginnning of creation.

 ISAIAH 45:12
  "It is I who made the earth
    and created mankind upon it.
  My own hands stretched out the heavens;
    I marshaled their starry hosts."
  says the LORD Almighty.

 PSALMS 104:1-4
    Praise the LORD, O my soul.

   O LORD my God, you are very great;
    you are clothed with splendor and majesty.
   
   He wraps himself in light as with a garment;
    he stretches out the heavens like a tent

    and lays the beams of his upper chambers on their waters.
   He makes the clouds his chariot
    and rides on the wings of the wind.

   He makes winds his messengers,
    flames of fire his servants.

God loves all of us and wants of keep us in perfect peace so fear and follow only him forsaking all other God’s and you will have eternal life in great abundance. He already has beat Satan and his evil so you don't have to try. So the next time Satan or one of his Deamons bother you just tell em "Look up you Devil for you were doomed from the beginning of time" and then show him the night sky in the spring. Looks like party time is about over bud!

You will see him coming in the East on a Cloud of Glory and not in a Car or Airplane!
(Mark 13:5-26, Ezekiel 43:1-5)



References:

http://skyandtelescope.com/observing/skychart/skychart.asp (Interactive Sky Chart)
http://www.winshop.com.au/annew/cons.html (Constellation Index)
E. W. Bullinger 1893 (The Whitness of the Stars and their anchient origins.)

Elias2k,

I see these are your first posts, so welcome to Christians Unite. I hope that you enjoy the Christian fellowship here.

I also believe that JESUS is coming soon, but I've never studied astrology. Very few Christians have, so do you have a plain version of your posts that explains the main message the writer wanted to get across?

Love In Christ,
Tom

John 1:14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Hi,
Okay, I may be crazy. I have read and listened to Revelations (not to quote ye old famous book for end times, but..) every time I had went over, I envision and feel moved that the US is the whore. The whore  (with all of her riches and glory) will fall and all ofthe nations that rely on her and sell/trade with her will mor... so on and so forth. So, I believe that the US is the whore. I believe it is speaking of a nation, not a person.
Please let me know if anyone can come up with another explaination.

There just maybe a clue in Ezekiel

What scripture in Ezekiel are you referring to, Reba?

God’s and you will have eternal life in great abundance. He already has beat Satan and his evil so you don't have to try. So the next time Satan or one of his Deamons bother you just tell em "Look up you Devil for you were doomed from the beginning of time" and then show him the night sky in the spring. Looks like party time is about over bud!

We should never speak with demons ,just to tell them to get out and take your dumb thoughts in the name of JESUS CHRIST .They will aways go .U.s.a. is not the whore.Rev 17:5  And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
Rev 17:6  And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
Rev 17:7  And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.
Rev 17:9  And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
Rev 17:15  And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.
Rev 17:16  And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
Rev 17:18  And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth. Rev 18:3  For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
Rev 18:4  And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
Rev 18:5  For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
SO WE SEE ?Some of GODS PEOPLE ARE WITH IN HER ?

It is late so i am giveing you a quick guess and not looking it up try chapter 16 i think...

Thank you Reba. I will look it up tonite when I do my reading.

Hi elias2k,

I've studied the stars ever since I was a child, and I have used the stars for predictions in certain ' milestones ' in prophecy such as the birth of Jesus, the war in Iraq/Middle East and the ultimate Holy Grail in prophecy, the second coming.

I'll look through the information you posted and post a weighed response to it when I feel to do so.

Do not be deterred nor discouraged, the three wise men from the east found the Christ child through the constellation of Saturn and Jupiter in Pisces, surely with the tools and knowledge that are now avaliable one should and can do better with regards of major event as it is written in:

Luk 21:25  And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

So what was the chapter and verse?   I'm always trying to get a clue....lol   :P  :D  (my wife says I haven't got one yet  ???   ;D  )

I have been reading through Ezekiel.
This is the chapter where I have heard dispute that the descriptions in it are describing an alien encounter and/or a visit from a spaceship from the future.

4 I looked, and I saw a windstorm coming out of the north-an immense cloud with flashing lightning and surrounded by brilliant light. The center of the fire looked like glowing metal, 5 and in the fire was what looked like four living creatures. In appearance their form was that of a man, 6 but each of them had four faces and four wings. 7 Their legs were straight; their feet were like those of a calf and gleamed like burnished bronze. 8 Under their wings on their four sides they had the hands of a man. All four of them had faces and wings, 9 and their wings touched one another. Each one went straight ahead; they did not turn as they moved.

    10 Their faces looked like this: Each of the four had the face of a man, and on the right side each had the face of a lion, and on the left the face of an ox; each also had the face of an eagle. 11 Such were their faces. Their wings were spread out upward; each had two wings, one touching the wing of another creature on either side, and two wings covering its body. 12 Each one went straight ahead. Wherever the spirit would go, they would go, without turning as they went. 13 The appearance of the living creatures was like burning coals of fire or like torches. Fire moved back and forth among the creatures; it was bright, and lightning flashed out of it. 14 The creatures sped back and forth like flashes of lightning.

    15 As I looked at the living creatures, I saw a wheel on the ground beside each creature with its four faces. 16 This was the appearance and structure of the wheels: They sparkled like chrysolite, and all four looked alike. Each appeared to be made like a wheel intersecting a wheel. 17 As they moved, they would go in any one of the four directions the creatures faced; the wheels did not turn about [d] as the creatures went. 18 Their rims were high and awesome, and all four rims were full of eyes all around.

    19 When the living creatures moved, the wheels beside them moved; and when the living creatures rose from the ground, the wheels also rose. 20 Wherever the spirit would go, they would go, and the wheels would rise along with them, because the spirit of the living creatures was in the wheels. 21 When the creatures moved, they also moved; when the creatures stood still, they also stood still; and when the creatures rose from the ground, the wheels rose along with them, because the spirit of the living creatures was in the wheels.

    22 Spread out above the heads of the living creatures was what looked like an expanse, sparkling like ice, and awesome. 23 Under the expanse their wings were stretched out one toward the other, and each had two wings covering its body. 24 When the creatures moved, I heard the sound of their wings, like the roar of rushing waters, like the voice of the Almighty, [e] like the tumult of an army. When they stood still, they lowered their wings.

    25 Then there came a voice from above the expanse over their heads as they


When you read this, it really does look like an olden way of someone who has never seen a jet or other machine of these times would describe something like that. Note the part about the wheels, and verse 24 - "like the roar of rushing waters", like jet engines.

Certainly difficult to make a guess about what He saw.   I suspect when we see God and the things of heaven we will all be at a loss for words  ;)

Interesting to think about it though!


Grace and Peace!

(1) head of the Lion [Babylonia - Gold], (2) head of the bear [Medes-Persian - Silver], +4 = (6) 4 heads of the leopard [Cassander-Macedonia...Lysimachus-Asia Minor...Seleucus-Syria...Ptolemy-Egypt - Brass] (7) fourth beast - Iron&Clay

Revelation 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
Revelation 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

Daniel 2:38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold. ----> Nebuchadnezzar

Daniel 5:28 PERES; Thy kingdom is divided, and given to the Medes and Persians.

Daniel 2:39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.

Daniel 2:32 This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass,

2:32 his belly and his thighs of brass[/i][/u],.

One is...the Roman Empire adopted Greek culture and principles.

Babylonia...Gold (1)
Medes-Persian...Silver (2)
Alexander the Great to the Roman Empire...Brass (6)
fourth beast...Iron&Clay (7)

Zechariah 1:18 Then lifted I up mine eyes, and saw, and behold four horns.

Revelation 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
Revelation 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

Revelation 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
Revelation 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

The fourth beast. New World Order ?

Revelation 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Babylon/Iraq ?

Daniel 4:14 He cried aloud, and said thus, Hew down the tree, and cut off his branches, shake off his leaves, and scatter his fruit: let the beasts get away from under it, and the fowls from his branches:
Daniel 4:15 Nevertheless leave the stump of his roots in the earth, even with a band of iron and brass, in the tender grass of the field; and let it be wet with the dew of heaven, and let his portion be with the beasts in the grass of the earth:
Daniel 4:16 Let his heart be changed from man's, and let a beast's heart be given unto him; and let seven times pass over him.

Daniel 4:28 All this came upon the king Nebuchadnezzar.

Daniel 4:30 The king spake, and said, Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of my power, and for the honour of my majesty?
Daniel 4:31 While the word was in the king's mouth, there fell a voice from heaven, saying, O king Nebuchadnezzar, to thee it is spoken; The kingdom is departed from thee.
Daniel 4:32 And they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field: they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and seven times shall pass over thee, until thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.
Daniel 4:33 The same hour was the thing fulfilled upon Nebuchadnezzar: and he was driven from men, and did eat grass as oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till his hairs were grown like eagles' feathers, and his nails like birds' claws.

Daniel 7:4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.

______________________________________________

Daniel 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
Daniel 2:45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
Daniel 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Revelation 5:6 And I beheld, and, look, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

Love in Christ,
Randy

Concerning the post by Glitterz on Ezekiel 1:4-25

Believe me there are no aliens coming to rescue us from ourselves. Let me help you interpret this consider a large circle (7 feet in diameter as one wheel on the ground) then visualize a smaller circle inside it (6.5 feet in diameter forming a wheel looking as if intersecting a wheel) and between these at each compass point around the circles are marked out (4 directions forming the 4 rims) containing the powerful names of god that is assigned to a particular compass point on earth (N,S,E,W).  These are of course written using Hebrew letters where each name is made from the name Yod He Vau He (Tetragramation: IHVH - Jehovah) and symbolic of the most high and awesome rims with eyes all around. The Hebrew characters Yod in the names of GOD around the circles 4 rims (compass points) form the I’s all around and are representative and do form the most high and awesome names of GOD.

Of course, there is more but the spirit is key to the operation and function of these wheels which is in the creatures and thus inside the wheels which do not turn about. The sound of rushing waters, which sound like a tumult of an army, the voice of the almighty is the powerful name of Adonai Elohim Tzabaoth Shaddai (Lord God of Armies). The faces of the creatures are described thus pointing us to the particular constellations as clues to each living creature and its power. Rushing waters are just that the force of natural waters upon the earth. These spirits have the power of Cherubim. Virgo, Leo, Capricornus (OX of Chinese astronomy) and Aquila are your clues to the faces which consist of a Man, Lion, Ox and Eagle with 2 wings. These constellations are key because they have to be joined in a left, right fashion in some way forming the 4 faces of each living creature with 2 wings being raised upwards and with each wing touching another creature on either side.This fits the description of what Ezekiel saw and may help you understand the description given.

Their legs were straight; their feet were like those of a calf and gleamed like burnished bronze. Under their wings on their four sides, they had the hands of a man. All four of them had faces and wings.
Ezekiel 1:7-8

Physical men tried and tested by GOD thru many trials made strong and gleaming like burnished bronze or made worthy of God awesome might. Simply put an Angel or Cherubim in the human form on earth. (Angels on earth in human form even possibly an ELOHIM) I believe ELOHIM were 'divine beings' in ancient Israel in man form like Samuel, Saul and also the sons of GOD.
1 Samuel 28:10-13 also see Cherubim below.

The appearance of the living creatures was like burning coals of fire or like torches. Fire moved back and forth among the creatures; it was bright, and lightning flashed out of it.
Ezekiel 1:13, Psalms 99:1

Simply put the power of a Cherubim spirit before the glory of the Lord on earth and in the Milky Way galaxy the great sparkling crystal expanse.

Cherubim:
   Winged creatures combining human and animal features. To the Greeks and Romans these were also, centaurs or men made up of part man and part horse.We now are clearly referring to the intro by the voice of the 4 living creatures whom announce the 4 apocalyptic horseman of Revelation 6.

Let’s just say you wouldn’t want one of these men as an enemy for sure.

Do not use the names of GOD in vain ever!

References:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherubim
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elohim
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centaur