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What had been settled by councils many centuries ago, now is resurfacing as a old heretical teaching, packaged in a new box.

http://www.wwrn.org/parse.php?idd=7503

This is where, the issues surrounding the Sovereignty of God vs the free will of man lead to,  now God, is simply a spectator, and can do nothing, since He does not know how future events will be shaped by mans "free will" decisions.

A few excerts from this article, Christians should be aware of;


"On the other side are scholars such as Clark H. Pinnock and R. William Hasker, proponents of a viewpoint called open theism. For them, the future is somewhat open. God elects to give people free will and therefore cannot know everything that will happen in the future, they maintain."

"We say, yes, God has the power but He gives room for human and creaturely freedom. God's sovereignty is general over the world, but not meticulous," said Pinnock, a professor of theology at McMaster Divinity College in Hamilton, Ontario. "God wants free creatures to have some say."

"Pinnock and his co-writers argue that God has goals - not endless, predetermined outcomes - and can't know everything if He lets creatures choose alternatives that can affect the future. They cite various scripture for support, such as God's statement after Abraham showed willingness to sacrifice Isaac: " ... now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son" (Gen. 22:12)."

"In open theism, God "is not independent. He's now dependent. He doesn't know everything, just a few things. He's subject to the processes of time instead of transcending time," Oliphint said."
.



The troubling issue with this viewpoint, is ultimately, Who is it, that saves? God or man?

Was is it not Gods ? ; "predeterminate council that Jesus as Savior be, the judge of the "quick and the dead"? (Acts 10:42); was it not Gods determinate council and foreknowledge to "deliver" Jesus into wicked men, whose wicked hands crucified and slain Him? (Acts 2:23)

Was it because God didn't know, they would kill him? (Isa 53)
The scripture is crystal clear that "they took counsel together for to put him to death." (Jhn 11:54)

I guess God, couldn't have known this?  However, how is it the word tells us, He mediated the crucifixcion of Jesus before hand.

Note the following scripture;

1 Cor 2
7  But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8  Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Error, leads to error and distorts, the way man sees God.

If it is true, all are dead in sin, and because God elects a few by His mercy and grace for His own Glory, how is men can teach their actions, are the result of their own will?

Free will, and belief in this teaching, not only distorts man's view of God, but it puffs him up and emphacises his work, as opposed to Gods free grace..

God Bless,
Petro

So you don't believe we have free will? Did you choose to type what you posted or not? So you believe God sends people to hell arbitrarily based upon His whim? So in what sense is God loving?

There are more options than simply openness or determinism. Both are heretical.

SonofgAslan,

Unfortunately, we are not speaking of "openness or determinism."   but;

Fate vs Freedom,  here...........


Petro

Well see, the problem with open theology is that it leaves God in the dark. Man's free will does not necessarily do that. man can  still be free, while God would know every decision he ever will, could, has, or could have made.

I reject fatalism, and I reject openness theology.  man does have free will, but this in no way restricts God's knowledge.

I wholly agree with what you have posted.

The reason you disagree with "fatalism", is because you see "free will" as being the natural mans ticket to stopping the world, so he can get off at will.

The problem with that is, the ticket he holds is a oneway trip to eternity out of the presence of God, unless God intervenes in that man's life to "draw him, to Christ".

Free will, cannot draw him, anywhere but, further from God and the things of God, because all he can ever do is work himself into righteousness, which are as filthy wrags, before God.

1 Cor 2
14  But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


I think you know this..


Petro

Hmmm, I disagree. We can do some good through our free will. Even non-Christians love their children, or may do a kind act every once in a while. We can do good naturally. Because God created us, and He created us good. That has not completely disappeared. It has only been besmirched.

Our free will in cooperation with god's grace, draws us further and further into the life of God, which is what salvatiuon is. Yes, we cannot come to God unless He calls us, but he calls all of us. The difference is who responds positively.

I agree completely w/ 1 Cor 2:14.

It is God's word that calls.

Hear it.
Believe it.
Obey it.

SonofAslan,

Ok, thank you for at least being candid, and honest.

So, I think, so far we have established that the work necessary for salvation is, as you have stated;

Believe, Repent, and be Baptized.

So, what kind of Good, and how much of it, must one do to be able to come to faith, repentance and baptism.

I ask this question, because at Mat 25, the sheep were already sheep, and the goats, goats, when the angels gathered and separated them.

And Ephesians 1:13, still speaks of Faith being  a gift given by the grace of God.

And then we read at;

Titus 3
5  Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;


Petro

I couldn't find where Ephesians 1:13 said anything about faith being a gift. Did you mean a different passage? If you mean Ephesians 2:8 ("For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God"), the word "this" in this passage cannot be referring to "faith". The Greek is clearer than the English here, because in Greek, the demonstartive "this" has to agree with the word to which it refers in gender and number. The word "faith" is feminine, and "this" is neuter. It also can't refer to "grace" for the same reason. "Grace" is also feminine. The only thing it can refer to in this passage is salvation, which is a verb and so has no gender or number.


Short answer, the good we must do is respond to God's grace through faith and love. This is a piddling amount of good, and even that would be impossible if it weren't for God's grace. But it is still an act of our free will. God's grace allows us to choose freely how we will respond.

Long answer:

While we can do some good things through our free will, we can only do virtuous acts by the grace of God. That’s true.  But God’s grace has been poured generously on all men.


Romans 5:16-18 (NKJV)
And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.) Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

Just as Adam’s sin caused sin and death to come upon all men, so also Christ’s righteousness causes grace to come upon all men. We all are granted grace freely. But grace is not irresistible. God honors our freedom and allows us to choose whether to respond to this grace in faith or reject it. This is what Paul means when he says,


Ephesians 2:8 (NKJV)
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

God grants us grace, but it is only through our faith that grace becomes salvifically efficacious. If grace saved us with no responsibility on our part, then Paul would have said, “Through grace God saves you.” But no. It is not through grace we are saved, it is through faith. But what allows our faith to work salvation in us is God’s grace. This is what it means when Paul adds in the next verse that it is not through works that we are saved lest any should boast. It isn’t our works that save us, just as it isn’t our faith that saves us. It is God’s grace. But what turns God’s grace into salvation is our faith, which works. This latter definition of faith is what James meant when he says,


James 2:14-17 (NKJV)
What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

and later,


James 2:24-26 (NKJV)
You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Just as grace is only efficacious when we respond to it in faith, so also faith is only efficacious when it works in obedience to the commands of God.


Yes, we can only do good by the grace of God, but we only DO good when we respond in faith to the grace God bestows on us. This response in faith is our part of the covenant. It is in this way that we cooperate with God for our salvation. And this is what Scripture means when it says we must,



Philippians 2:12-13 (NKJV)
work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

How can Paul tell us to work out our own salvation while at the same time telling us that God works in us? We must work out our salvation, we must strive for it, but we do this by cooperating with God’s grace working in us. How do we cooperate? Through faith which works itself out in love. This is what it means to persevere as Paul says we must do:


Hebrews 10:36 (NKJV)
For you have need of endurance [i.e. perseverance], so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:


and


1 Timothy 4:16 (NKJV)
Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue [i.e. persevere] in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.

and  Christ tells us to “ strive to enter the narrow gate” (Luke 13:24).

We must struggle and strive and “run the race” and “fight the good fight”, and we will only attain salvation by doing these things. But it is not these things which save us. It is the grace of God given freely to all men which saves us. But this grace only saves us when we respond to it in faithful obedience. A good analogy would perhaps be a seed. Grace is a seed that only becomes a tree if it is watered. But water doesn’t produce the fruit on the tree. The seed is what becomes a fruit bearing tree. The water merely nourishes the seed and allows it to become what it is by nature. Grace is the seed, which when watered by our faithful obedience allows us to become what we were created to be, i.e. fruit bearing trees.


This should also explain what I believe is the proper understanding of the Titus passage.

SonofAslan,

Sorry,  Yes....... I meant Eph 2:8-9

If you mean Ephesians 2:8 ("For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God"), the word "this" in this passage cannot be referring to "faith". The Greek is clearer than the English here, because in Greek, the demonstartive "this" has to agree with the word to which it refers in gender and number. The word "faith" is feminine, and "this" is neuter. It also can't refer to "grace" for the same reason. "Grace" is also feminine. The only thing it can refer to in this passage is salvation, which is a verb and so has no gender or number.

Actually this word "this" has three distinct meanings and can be interpreted in three different different ways in this passage, one way is as you have stated, however not to derail the discussion, I will agree with you that it ultimately focuses on Salvation, for sure.

In other words their is nothing one can do to produce salvation.  And faith in Jesus is not something any of us produce without first believing the word of God, the Gosple, because only the hearing of word of God by the Gosple, according to this passage and Romans 10:17, produces faith;

" So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

This is why Jesus, was able to quote Isaiah 6, when He said;

Mat 13
13  Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.


Virtue and doing good, are still only  human efforts, although this may show a person has a desire to live righteously, the motive is what matters, and since God knows the heart of all men, ultimately, it is revealed in whether they obey His word perfectly.  Jesus said to the Pharasees, these religious, pious hypocrites, who accused him of being born out of fornication, at;

 Jhn 8
45   And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
46 [coloir=Red] Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?[/color]
47  He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
In your other post which I will address later, you mention believing in a person not in an an act , and I understand this, but here Jesus in so many words is saying, "If you hear me, you hear me because God has given you ears to hear, these are His words."


He said this because: He, (Jesus), is that prophet spoken of in Deut 18:18-19, whom God promised He would send, who would every word He himself put in His mouth, and the day is coming, when God will judge everyone that heard His (Jesus's) words.

In short, we all will live or die, by the words Jesus spoke, in the name of Jehovah. God.



This is true, however:    "faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God"     (Rom10:17, Isa 6:10)
God unstops ears, so that they may hear, the word of God.

Faith in Gods word produces, belief in the truth, the principle elements of truth in the Gosple, is the God loves all men and his desire is that  none should perish;  In fact,  God's will is that none should perish but that all should come to repentance (2Pet3:9), so everyone who hears comes to the realization, that he is a sinner and will perish, so to understand this one must believe the word of God, who in the end is Jesus; and the Apostle tells us in; Acts 15:9 refering to the account of Cornelius at Acts 10:, that when they heard the word of truth, God purified the heart by FAITH, and yet these were not yet baptized.

Two questions;

1. Do you see belief in Gods word as work?  You needn't answer;

Actually, I see you do believe this as it was  listed as part of the work required for salvation.

2. If  Baptism is part of the Work equation, how is it the Holy Spirit is given to everyone, before the are Baptized?


One of these Two verses, oppose what you have stated previously; You said, the works is believe, repent, and be baptized, verses 14-17 above, are speaking of some other work,  than that stated.

Cont'd....

What about Baptism, evidence that salvation has occurred is the sealing of the Holy Spirit.

He leads all believer's unto the truth of what is the word of God, from faith to faith.


Here, at this passage of scripture,  it is God who works it out in those whom he has chosen, and He is working in them to will and do of His good pleasure,

What is this person "working out"??

In this passage one must not ignore the context of the word, "work out" hear clearly means the solution of the problem that was vexing the Phillipians, that is to say, their contentions.

Why were they having contentions??  The letter tells us..no doubt there were evil workers among them, dividing and corrupting the truth.

And the meaning of the word "salvation" in this passage is, is not the salvation of the soul, but deliverance from the evil snares of the god of this world, which hinder the work, of bringing men to Christ, the true work of all children of God.  


The perseverance needed to finish is spiritual, and it is given by the Spirit, in fact, it is the Spirit that perseveres in the end, He will finish, the work He began in all Christians because He never gives up. This is what enables Christians to stand in the evil day.(Eph 6:13-18)

The "will of God" , is as we have stated already, "that none should perish, however, He expresses His will, which Paul articulated clearly to all men in

Acts 17;
30  And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31  Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

God commands all men everywhere to repent, this is Gods will, and Jesus, said;

Mk 7
21  Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22  Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 [color=Red And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. [/color]
Kind of reminds us of the sheep and the goats, of Mat 25, doesn't it.

And again Jesus said;

Mat 12
50  For whosoever shall do the [/b] which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

The book of Hebrews written to the Jewish Christian believer, was one of reconciling the Law, with Grace, The Apostle, in several places, calls to their attention, their need of not placing their faith in obediance to the Law of Moses,  he wrote,

For us, he writes


Rom 10
4  For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

And at ;

Gal 3
22  But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23  But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24  Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25  But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.



This is good, and of course I don't disagree, and when seen in the proper light, we can see, that that water you speak of is given from heaven to increase what was first only trust,  in Gods Word, ending in full blown faith in Jesus finished works (Eph 1:13)

(this is where that verse which got astray from belongs)

Just like the physical seed needs physical water to grow into a tree, the spirtual seed which

produces the tree of , faith,

 (can you see, how it (FAITH) is given from heaven, to believe what one could never believe before, if, left to himself)

so, that same spiritual seed the word of God, needs to be watered with spiritual water (the same word of God), it is the same water, with which the Christian is Baptized with, and It is Jesus who Baptizeth with the Holy Spirit,

This is the real,  Baptism required (Jhn 1:31-33),

(not physical water baptism, Mk16:16, although Christians should be Baptized in accordance to the ordinance given by Jesus),

even unbelievers who claim to believe can be baptized in water, this is clear, form this verse at Mark, but it produces nothing.

Blessings, Petro

Faith?
All of God's creation had FAITH at one time! They were created with it! Some still have more than others regardless of being Christians. (it is not all lost or all developed yet)

Christ asked if He would find FAITH on earth when He comes the second time? Sounds like we already know the answer for the most part?

Here is the way that I see it. The character of no one is fully developed at conversion. Even Adam & Eve had a garden TEST. This was to DEVELOPE FAITH (CHARACTER). It is no differant today. In Christ there are HIS PROVISIONS to develop Character Faith.

This was not a created given trait from God. It takes our free will also! Even though the provisions ARE PROVIDED! Phil. 4:13 & 2 Cor. 12:9. See John 15:5 for the Everlasting Gospel part! Even heavens one time highest of Christ's creation was of faulty tested character!

---John

Your comment confuses me, because the word here, "touto" only has one meaning, and that is as a demonstrative pronoun "this". Demonstartive pronouns can be used in many ways, but it is impossible that it refers to “faith” or “grace”. So I don't know what other meanings you could be referencing.

So you’re confusing me a bit here.



Answer to question 2. The Holy Spirit is not given to ALL, whether baptized or not. There can be exceptions, as I noted, e.g. the thief on the cross, but these are exactly that, i.e. exceptions.


You misunderstand. You are getting caught up in the particularity of the form in which our works take. This is wrongheaded. There is no single particular form in which works manifest themselves that all must do to be saved. But there must be good works for us to be saved. Some may never have fed a homeless man in their lives, but have spent all their time visiting men in prisons. While others may never have visited a prison on their lives, but spend all their time feeding the hungry. The particular form of work isn’t significant. These all fall under the general category of works : “loving God and loving our fellow man”. And this category breaks down into “faith, repentance and baptism”, which further breaks down into the particular works you refer to. So your statement that vv 14-17 arte talking about different works is false. They are talking about the same works as faith, repentance and baptism.


To read it this way leaves off half the verse. That’s why I quoted all of it. You can only interpret this passage as you do if you ignore the first half. We work out our salvation WITH God. God doesn’t work in us, in spite of ourselves. We work out His works. Cooperation. Like I explained.


No it doesn’t. Paul clearly says “work out YOUR SALVATION”. He doesn’t say, “Work out the solution to your problem.”


This is where we’re going to disagree. Faith is OUR response to God. It is not given to us from God. It is how we respond to His grace, which He gives us. Faith is ours. Do we respond with faith or with lack of faith? This part is up to us. Some may have MORE faith, which simply means that they turn to God more than others do, but it is still man’s response.



Just as grace not responded to in faith produces nothing. This is not problematic, but it doesn’t negate the fact that baptism in water responded to in faith is how God bestows His Holy Spirit upon man.

This is a good example of the difference between Monergism and Synergism.

Monergistst state that only God's will is active in the Earth, and the goal of man's is to hope that he is within the good part of this will(predest).

Synergism, which is much more orthodox, states that man must submit and make his will, like Gods will- so they will be indistinguishable and will be like one will.

Was the Bible written by God alone, or did he use men who were completely and wholly men?  Was Jesus all God and no man? or all God and all man?

To me, synergism seems the stronger point of view.  

SonofAslan

I believe you have answered my questions, and have given me enough to know mwhere you stand.


Of course your statement above, does not align with scripture, I gave you these scriptures, previously and, it is the final authority for this matter, everyone who belongs and has been baptized by Jesus with the Holy Spirit, have been sealed by that same Spirit who raised Jesus from the dead (Rom 8:11), and that same spirit will give life to our mortal bodies in the end;  and, there are no exceptions, regardless of whether anyone agrees with this truth, or Not.  

Rom 8
9.........................Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
14  For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.


I will now answer your question concerning James 2, at the other thread.

I may not do it today, since there are things which I must accomp-lish today, perhaps later this p.m.


Petro

Petro,

Two things.

First, for clarification, since your response seem to have understood something from my quote that I did not intend, when I said the Holy Spirit is NOT given to all, i meant that He is not given to all people. I fully believe He is given to all Christians, although baptism isn't exactly the sacrament where this occurs. But I could be wrong about that. Just for clarification.

Second, to be perfectly honest, I think I would prefer you didn't respond to Matthew, James, etc. on the other thread. I would prefer you respond to them here. The reason being is that I want Ambassador to respond to them. As of right now, he is rambling on and on without dealing with the passages. I want him to deal with them there, if you don't mind.

I would love to see what you have to say on them here, though.

Thanks.

God is loving. He gives us a choice: Heaven or Hell. It's pretty simple.  ::)

SonofAslan,

In cleaning up or modifying this response whicvh was Reply #17, I damamged it, and have to repost it here, sorry...





SonofAslan,

You are confused because you want this verse to mean something it does not. The fact is;

 Neither  grace, faith (to believe in Jesus)(Gal3:22-29), nor salvation is  of  "Yourself"; you think, "faith" just came one day from nowhere?, the word of God produces this type of faith in those whom God has chosen,

Note verse 23 at Gal 3, it is revealed, and unless it is revealed to those who come with their feeble faith, they will never see the truth of this matter.  Simply speaking they remaing unable to see the truth of the scriptures, though they make themselves students of the scriptures.

Grace, Faith, Salvation is a mystery of the Kingdom, and they (the mysteries) are revealed to the elect/chosen of God, and He choses them, they do not chose Him.  Consider this verse;

Luke 8
10 .........Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

All of the natural faith, any natural man can muster up, is insufficient to come to Christ, because it is plain, at 1 Cor 2:14, that the things of God are Spiritually Discerned", and the kind of faith required is "spiritual".

We understand the Word of God, because we possess not only His Spirit, but the Mind of Christ.  (1 Cor 2:15-16)    

Notice these verses follow; verse 14??


Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.  Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

These two verses precede 1 Cor 2:14.

If you possess the Holy Spirit, and have been taught by the Holy Spirit, how is it you can contradict Him??

He says and teaches explicitly, that ALL who belong to Christ, presently possess Him, and He is the possesssion, which separates those who belong to Christ, from those who do not belong to Christ, since it is He,  that make the receiving of the "spiritual discernment of the things of God, possible..

I am afraid your own words give you away.


To Ollie, I was referencing Mat 25, these works are done to "the least of my brethern", specificlly during the tribulation
are counted "as being done as unto Me", you are refering to; James 2:14-17, these are two different context passages.

While I may agree with you partially on what you say, it is only because all good works, have a begining, and in this case they have begining with "doing the WILL of the Father, according to scripture.

The will of God, is expressed in the Command given to all people everwhere to repent. (Acts 17:30)

James 2:14-16, are speaking of the good works, which believers may do unto his fellow man, these are the results of being saved, not to be saved, of course those that believe one works himself into the presence of God, teach these are all lumped together as one great big work, then they emphasize these works done to mankind above the reality of act of repentance, this is similar to water baptism being one and the same as Baptism with the Holy Spirit, those who teach this, of which your church also does, emphasize the physical above the spirituall reality of it, the reason this is done is because, they all (those who teach these teachings of men), live by sight and not faith..

The fact is,  the the unsaved can and do these very acts of kindness, and they are not saved at all, you can read about this in  the following passage of scripture, here Jesus makes it plain;

Mat 7
21  Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.  
22  Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?  
23  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.  
24  Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25  And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.  
26  And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27  And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Notice; verses 22 and 23, specifically;

At verse 22, these goats, are vehemently testifying of their great activity, emphasizing all that they did, in His name no less; and yet, at verse 23, He says to them, "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. "

In Mat 25, one can clearly understand, that the difference was not in the deeds themselves but their motive, one of compassion and love done as unto Jesus, because of the love one has for God and his fellow man, note what Jesus said;
at verse;

Mat 7
40  And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Interestingly, the sheep, didn't even know that their work was done as unto Him, because, they were doing it out of love and compassion for the people;  this disproves your theory, about the doing of good works, in order to be saved; as these (the sheep) were not even aware of this. (Mat 25:34-36), otherwise they would not have asked, "when saw we thee...............vs 37, as they would have known that this was their reward for what they had done..



Phil2
13  For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

This verse sheds light on the verse you rely on to work out your salvation, it is God through the Spirit which accomplishes the reality of faith, repentance, baptism with the Holy Spirit; the natural man, desires to save himself without assistance, or in the case of religious men, they want to assist God.

We do understand this scripture perfectly well, because He wills in us, to do of His good pleasure, how hard is this to understand?? It is only not understood by those unto whom, it has not been givcen to undertsand the word.

Since we possess this sin nature, because we are made from the dust of this sin cursed earth, if He didn't work supernaturally within his people thruogh the Spirit, even we would rebel and grieve the Spirit of God who dwells within us.





Cont'd..............

To you it doesn't....but unfortunately, scripture interprets itself, it doesn't needs mans help; this is written for your sake, so that Isaiah'a prophecy should be fulfilled.


As I stated previously, the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God, because they are spiritually discerned, plainly reveals unless God gives man,faith to believe by revelation, he cannot believe in Jesus, to the saving of the Soul.



Heb 4
2  For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Well, it is obvious that those that do not respond to Christ by faith, possess some kind of faith, but it is not centered on Him and His finished Works, but it is, in their own works, not Gods, the object of their faith is misplaced. And therefore is worthless.

Your statement above, reflects this clearly, the Apostles never taught that salvation was given in water baptism, but, did teach that salvation was found in faith in Christ Jesus.(Acts4:12), Cornelius and his household were saved after the day of Pentecost, everyone who received the gift of the Holy Spirit did so when they were baptized with the Holy Spirit, as had been prophecied by John (Jhn 1:33), only by claiming that they were saved in a different way from us, can you reconcile the scriptures.

Petro

PS I have not had a chance to work of my response concerning your question, for a simple answer..but will do so.


And yes, I will honor your request and post my answer on this page.

SonofAslan,



I am glad you clarified this, if this is true (that you "fully believe He is given to all Christians"), this can change your understanding of this matter considerably, providing of course the Spirit is leading you.

As I said before, and it i needs to emphacised;  that,

Water baptism is the shadow of the reality of Baptism with the Holy Spirit, and of course while not separarting the two, it must be understood in their context.

Just as,

Physical circumcision of the flesh is the shadow of circumcision of the heart.

Both are a work of God, and not man, the observance of symbol simply speaks of the heart of the desire of doer of the shadow of the real thing to be obedient to God, and while this can be said to be a work, the doing of it, is not what produces the reality of it. Because it must be mixed with faith, and the faith must be focused on the proper object, not the work.

This is made clear in these verses;

Rom 2
28  For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29  But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

If this is true, then water baptism, which a washing of the flesh,  also does not, (the shadow of the sprinkling spoken of in Eze 36:25-27) make a Jew, anyone who is baptized in water.

Cornelius, and his family possessed the Holy Spirit before they were baptized with water, this is testified to in Acts 10:45 and 15:8 , by Peter at Jerusalem.

The Book of Titus makes this clearer:

Titus 3
5  Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

What more can I say about this.

Now, Concerning Mathew 25, and James 2, I will post my answer to you for sure later today.

Blessings,
Petro

This bleepity-bleep-bleeping-bleep server. I had a long response typed in, hit submit, and it couldn’t access the server, so I lost it. BLEEP BLEEP BLEEP BLEEP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well, I’m not typing it again. It was nearly 3 pages long.


The MOST important thing I said, I believe, besides thanks for answering me here, is that you have a tendency to take one verse and elevate it to the status of a canon within Scripture. This is illegitimate. You have to read all Scripture together.

You also misunderstand us if you think we elevate the physical over the spiritual. They cannot be separated as you do. To do this falls into gnosticism, and turns ALL physical reality into something totally divorced from the spiritual reality. Thus you legitimize adultery as mere biological coupling with no spiritual content. You legitimize murder as mere disintegration of atomic compounds with no spiritual ramifications. The spiritual and material CANNOT be divorced either in morality or in the sacraments. You destroy both by your understanding.

You have also taken several Scripture out of context (most notably Matt 7:22ff -- which talks about works all over the place, and in fact, Christ says right before the verse you quoted that not those who say to Him “:Lord Lord” but those who “do the will of my Father” shall enter the kingdom. So whatever deeds they may have done, they were “practicing lawlessness (the basis Jesus gives for casting them out) and NOT doing the will of the Father. This passage doesn’t support your claim.)

Also faith is OUR response. Your quote of Gal 3 says nothing to the contrary, and Eph cannot be used to support your claim that faith is a “gift from God”.

SonofAslan,

To answer your question concerning how, we reconcile, the faith works scriptures, which seem to be a stumbling stone to many today, we say that ultimately, since we understand perfectly, that because of sin, we were numbered among the transgressors and condemned to an eternity in hell,

All, because of the sin of unbelief, and we confess today,  that our faith is not the result of our own  cleverness, nor human understanding or wisdom, which is nothing other than foolishness (the wisdom of this world), to believe that we believed by our own strength.

The Grace that brought us, to a saving faith in Christ Jesus, for sure we see as a gift given by God, (whether you accept this or not, matters littel to us) and that because of Gods infinite mercy, grace and sovereign will, having elected us, to hear and believe the Gospel of our Salvation, which is preached to every creature, as ordained by the Lord,

And were it not for His intervention, we would still remain in the sin of unbelief, as many do today.

The context of verses 31 thru 46 of Mat 25, is at period afte  the end of the Tribulation , when the King returns and is ruling from the throne, vs 32  And before him shall be gathered all nations:.............., precisely when this occurs, your guess is as good as mine..

my own undertsanding is imediately before his thousdand year reign on the earth, because of what Zecariah writes, at Chap 14.

This is made clear from, these verses;

31  When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:  
32  And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33  And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

that the time of the fulfillment  of these scriptures is at the end times, is apparent, since judgement is evidenced herein,  since, it is to occuring after  the King (Jesus)  returns to sit upon the throne of His glory, referring to the Messianic prophecy in the OT as spoken by Nathan the prophet to King David, and it is plain this occurs at the end the great tribulation, axactly when is not settled.

In that day, He (Jesus) will be King over all the earth. (Zec  14:9)

This whole chapter, begins with the coming day of the Lord, and reveals when that day begins, note the graphic description of the first six verses, and consider that they are the same words spoken in Mat 24, at verses; 7, 29, 42.

Zec 14:16, is the reality of the vision, Isaiah had,  at Chapter 6:1-5, of Jesus sitting on the throne, in the year King Uzziah died, compare verse 1 of Isaiah 6, to verse 5 of Zec 14.

Now, the nations, which are gathered at Mat 25:32, are the nations of the world, Zec speaks of these peoples of these nations at verses 2, 12 and 16.

So here  you have the setting for which Mat 25, is to be understood, it is during the times after the Great Tribulation known as  Jacobs Trouble upon the Nation of Israel,  which affects the entire world of nations.

But the focus is on the people of these nations, symbolized by the sheep and goats, then, the focus becomes,  what they did, or didn't do, during this time of trouble.

It is clear the sheep, were already sheep, and the goats already goats,  when they were divided, and clear they,  didn't become goats or sheep during this period of time because of what they did, since the Lord makes it plain (who His sheep are and what qualities define there nature at Jhn 10:14,26-27)  and  (the passage at Mat 7:21-27 speaks of at certain "day", since at these verses it is clear in Mat 25:32 , is "that day" spoken of at verse 22 , of  Mat 7 ),

Both places were prepared for, beforehand for both the sheep and the goats.

For the sheep, the kingdom was prepared  for them, "from the foundation of the world"; we read at

Eph 1:3-5;
3  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4  According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5  Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

For the goats, there place, was not prepared for them, specifically,  but has become their destiny, because of there works, this is to say, (what they did or didn't do),  depending on whether you accept Mat 7:21-27 or Mat 25:31- 40, to be connected,

At any rate, I had mentioned beforehand to you, that all will be judged (whose names are not written in the Lambs book of life) in the end according to their works, (Rev 20:11-15)

As stated, the works, at Mat 25 are not the rule which determine who is a goat and who were sheep.  What they did and didn't do, was elaborated on by Jesus at Mat 7:24-27.
 
But at these verse:
The sheep because of their nature did, what was right according to the King, as Jesus elaborates at Mat 25:35 through 40, and He counted it as thou it was done unto Him.

The goats, because of their nature, did not do, what was right according to the King, and it is for this reason they are sent into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Now, here I have to admit, it appears, that had the goats done what the sheep had done they,  may have been able to be counted among the sheep; but this theory is rejected by scripture at verse 46, where the sheep are referred to as "righteous", this is the reason why they did what they did.  

They knew the King and,  they also knew that the King delighted, in mercy, grace, doing good, and scripture says;

Psa 37:21, "the righteous showeth mercy, and giveth."

Zec 7:9  " Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Execute true judgment, and show mercy and compassion's every man to his brother:

And Jesus said;  concerning His brothers, sisters, and mother;

Mat 12
50  ...........whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Mat 5
7  Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

This is how we understand Mat 25, the works the sheep did, was accepted by the King as though they did it unto Him; and who were His brethren referred to herein,  Jewish descendant, that yet were outside of the faith in (Jesus) the King , during the Tribulation they will bear the brunt of the Evil ones persecutions, but the sheep who symbolize the elected of God, will care for them, with acts of kindness, and mercy, and love, out of obedience for their King.

Yet they never counted their deeds, as though they were to be counted expecting a reward, this is why they asked the King;

Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
  When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
  Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?  (Mat 25:37-39)
 

So that these works, do not contradict the scriptures that teach, man is not saved by good works (Eph 2:8-9), but by mercy, grace through faith.


I will address, James 2, in my next post.

Blessings,
Petro

SonofAslan,

I have the same problem, I have simply just resigned myself to typing my answers first on my word writing program and transferring it to thge post window, (what I have found out is four pages is the max, one can post, otherwise one can lose what he tried to post.


I have no idea what point you are tyrying to make, every verse is inspired, and a part of the cannon, and none contradict the teaching of the whole word.


No I don't, you do, this is evidenced by infant baptism, which your church practices and you believe in,  nowhere, in the scriptures will one find, any grounds for performing such a ceremony.  


I separate them for your benefit, that yuou might see, the physical is the shadow of the real object.  I have made this plane to you alteady, if you can't grasp this then, I can't help you.


I am afraid you are reading something else into these verses,.

Their own words, testify they thought the work they were doing, (cause they invoked His name),  were sufficient to enter the Kingdom, it is plain as daylight, they certainly thought had done the will of the Father.

In the begining I asked you,  "what is the work, one must do to enter the Kinghdom??"

You answered; believe, repent, and be baptized.

All these I thought we agreed were grasped by faith.

Now you claim, it is another work, together with these.


I can use the verses that speak plainly to me about what they teach, (so long they do not contradict the rest of the teaching of scripture) the fact you separate what the gift encompasses, by the use of semantics, and defining words to support your theory, your way, puts you at odds with the rest of scripture, concerning works. (Scripture teaches man is saved by Grace through Faith) , now you seem to be claiming Faith is a work, is this what you are now saying.

So, which is it, is faith the work?? or the others, you are starting to jump around, as if you are on a hot skillet..


Gal 3
22  But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23  But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

These verses, certainly make the point, faith had not been grasped, this is why men perish, and the promise could not come, because of the lack of faith, and verse 23, says, that "faith which should afterwards be revealed",  I suppose you would teach that one day, you revealed  Jesus to yourself,  huh??

I don't know whether we are getting anywhere, but at least we are considering scripture.

Blessings,

Petro

SonofAslan,

Now, concerning James 2:14-26, It is important not to leave out the first thirteen verses of this passage, since it sets up the verses, which seem to teach there is a work other than "believing by faith" the works of God.

14  What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

in another thread which seems to reconcile, faith and works as one, I asked the question, What is the answer to this question??

What would be your answer to this question scripture asks??

15  If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16  And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17  Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18  Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.
19  Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20  But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21  Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22  Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23  And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24  Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25  Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26  For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

In the other thread, Ollie, inserts two verses in 2 Cor 5, I expand them to include the following;

And, In the light of, these verses;

1 Cor 5
5  Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6  Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7  (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
8  We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9  Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10  For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Verse 9 speaks of some kind of labour, is this labor necessary for salvation??

You would answer "YES", as you have already ikndicated, for all work is one in the same and necessary for salvation you would argue; the problem with this thought is, that the very next verse (vs 10)  discounts this theory outta hand, since "suffer loss" according to the next set of verses, speaks of  a spiritual loss, and judgement is received in the same body one had which earned him this loss , but does not affect his salvation,  at all, since it is plain, the individual whose works are judged is still saved according to verse, (15, below). And note verse 8, below, each man receives his own reward according to his own labor

1 Cor 3
5  Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
6  I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
7  So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
8  Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
9  For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
10  According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11  For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12  Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13  Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14  If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15  If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
16  Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

These verses speak for themselves, a man is not judged by his works for salvation, but judged for the receiving of a reward or suffering loss, but neither affect his salvation, this is very clear.

Now, back to Jeames 2,

Faith according to Heb11:1, is the confident assurance of things hoped for, a conviction of the reality of things not seen.

 It is the basis for salvation , which is being that of being born of the will of God by his power (Jhn 1:12-13) by faith in Jesus Christ, becoming children of God thru the same faith in Jesus (Gal 3:26), and are kept by the same power, thru faith in Him (1 Pet 1:5)

Works are the deeds of men, whether good or evil, and according to scripture no flesh can be justified by  works of the law (if this is true, what other works can justify, certainly not, good deeds which the heathen do; and are not justified by them doing them.  

Let me stop here,  so as not confuse you any further, the law has to aspects to it, the letter and the spirit, obedience to the letter of the law, keeps the law as a friend to oneself, but imediately upon transgressing it, the law becomes an enemy, because it demands retribution, judgment, and that judgement is death; while......... the spirit of the law, is such that  obedience to it is life eternal, the problem is "there is none that keep it". Consider, (2 Cor 3:6)(Rom 7:6)(

So works are simply the basis for rewards or punishment when men are judged according to their deeds, and this judgement as has been showen, has absolutely nothing to do with losing  nor gaining salvation, Eph 2:8-9, makes it plain, one does nothing to obtain it by anyuthing he does , and Gal 2:16, even obeying the law does not justify a man.

Men confuse these two concepts; but, scripture never does.

James, at chapter 2, appears to contradict what Paul states at  Rom 3:28;  that  "a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the Law",  while James at 2:24 says; "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."

So, where is the problem.  Paul was writing about justification before God, see Rom 4:2.  

While James herein writes of being justified before men, see verse 2:18 " Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works."

He (James is writing and dealing with the question of the man who says he has faith, but has no works to demonstrate its reality, this is the context of James 2:14-20.  He says nothing to discredit faith, nor to suggest that this man of faith may be unsaved.

Paul speaks of the root of the Christian walk; while James of its fruit, before the unlearneded and unsaved.

Faith and works are put in prespective in Eph 2:8-9, it depends how one understands this passage that determines, his view on the sugject.  Either way, all are saved the same way, by faith, not by works; however we are saved "unto good works."  and, this means we are to maintain good works (Titus 3:8), being fruitful in them, (Col 1:10), so that God may be glorified when Christ returns,  (1 Pet 2:12).

A short word on your answer, concerning works;  you stated that the works necessary to become saved, were;  believe, repent, be baptised.

We agreed on one of the three, it seems your understanding of repentance was a little clouded in my mind, repentance, is something which God gives, I know you disagree with this, but the word is very clear about it being granted by God,  since in;

Acts 11
18  ..............................Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

It is God who hardens hearts or softens them, so that he should receive the glory for the gift of salvation in the end, he is Sovereign and does what He wills in the affairs of men.

I know this rubs you and others the wrong way, but unfortunately, this is the truth, and salvation has nothing to do with anyone except on whom God desires to give it to.

Unknown quote;

"Who are they that, object vehemently to the absolutes of God's word?  

But, Those who object to God's word. "

I trust you are not one of these..

Petro

SonofAslan,


In reading another thread on this forum, I noticed you, made comment to Anathasius, and Pelegianism, and Anathasius's defence against this heretical doctrine.

Your post gave the impression, you understand the teaching of these doctrines.

Throughout church history the debate concerning predestination has raged among three views: Pelagianism, semi-Pelagianism, and Augustinianism.

1.  Pelagianism maintains that God's grace assists fallen man in redemption but is not necessary to attain salvation. This view, which holds that fallen man is virtuous and able to earn salvation by doing good works, has always been considered heretical by the church because it rejects the necessity of faith and total dependence on Christ in salvation.

Though heretical, it has reappeared this century in many liberal churches.

2.  Semi-Pelagianism, very similar to Arminianism, contends that man cannot be saved apart from God's grace; however, fallen man must cooperate and assent to God's grace before he will be saved. Inherent in this view is the belief that man, prior to any work of regeneration in the soul by God, has the power to accept and embrace God's grace. Salvation for semi-Pelagians is man's decision, not God's will.

In this scheme, two people can receive the same offer of salvation by God. One may turn in faith of his own accord, the other may not -- the difference being not God's grace in the matter, but man's will.

The semi-Pelagians would argue that the person who comes to faith cannot do so without God's grace, but that grace is not the determining factor in a person's coming to faith, this then is the reason, why Armenianism, teaches a "faith, works gospel"..

The final distinction between believer and unbeliever is something in the believer.

We contend, that distinction is the Holy Spirit, drawing, moving and working in the unbeliever, who has been elected to become a BELIEVER.  This is why, Heb 6:4-6, is accepted as and understood to be speaking of an unbeliever, who has been sanctified for the hearing of the Gospel, and the teaching at this verses, is that "it is impossible", "if they should fall away to renew them again to repentance".  

The Key word in this passage is the word  "IF".  And this passage is definitely not speaking of a be4liever who falls away.

I believe you used the word Arian, in describing Semi-Pelegianism, they are not the same error, I was wondering if you didn't mean Armenianism??  It should not have anything to do with Orthodoxy, since it is a Protestant doctrine.

It is apparent to me by this time, that you support and align yourself with the doctrine embraced by  Semi-Pelegianism in the Orhtodox camp and Armenianism in the Protestant camp, is this so??

If it is, how is it that eastern Orthodox faithful, have come, once again, to embraced, elements of this heretical doctrine,  which have been adjured to be paganism and condemned  by the Carthaginian Synod of 412, and Pope Innocent I in 416??

Or is it because east and west, settled on Semi-Pelegianism to be the embraced doctrine of both camps??

Petro.

Ok, first, your distinction between sin in  general and the sin of unbelief, as if a) this distinction is legit and b) the sin of unbelief is so heinous but all other sin is perfectly acceptable to God is an abomination. All sin is pure wickedness and God can abide NONE of it. And unbelief is no WORSE a sin than adultery or murder. In fact, the mother of ALL sin is pride.

Second, show me anywhere in Scripture where this distinction you make between the supposed “sin of unbelief” and all other sin. It isn’t here. Sin is sin. Period.

Third, who ever said faith is a result of cleverness, man’s wisdom or anything of the sort? You are distorting Scripture again. Faith is our response to God. It isn’t a result of man’s cleverness or wisdom, but it is a result of man’s will. Believing isn’t a matter of strength or anything else. It is simply a loving, submissive response to God’s grace. And it is OUR response. We decide how to respond. Wisdom, cleverness, etc….what are those and what do they have to do with faith? Respond to what I say. Not what you think I said or thought I said or what the last person you talk to said. Respond to me.

Fourth, (and this got lost when my post got lost). If works play a role in our being justified before God before the supposed Tribulation, they play a role in our being justified before God PERIOD. There is only ONE way to be acceptable to God, and if works play a role in that, they ALWAYS play a role in that. There aren’t multiple ways of becoming acceptable to God. That is the heresy of dispensationalism.



No Petro, they are righteous because they did righteous deeds. The goats are unrighteous because they did unrighteous deeds. Our choice. We aren’t robots. God hasn’t determined how we will act. We are not His puppets. He hasn’t ordained our end. We choose it., based on our response to His grace.


Whew, I have a lot I could say here, but I will restrain myself to saying that you have interpreted Scripture in a way that is not found in Scripture itself. And then you say WE practice and teach things not found in Scripture? You draw connections between passages of Scripture that are arbitrary at best, and interpret them in such a way that is not found in Scripture. I’m specifically referring to your understanding of the Tribulation.

Yes, their good deeds were considered as done to Christ. Does this refer to deeds done during some supposed Tribulation? No! Nothing anywhere here even remotely suggests that. The closest reference to any kind of tribulation is a chapter removed. You have added your own interpretation to Scripture and reject what it says. Scripture is quite plain, especially here. Those who act righteously enter the kingdom. Those who act wickedly are cast out. Choose this day who you will follow. The choice is yours and hasn’t been made for you.

That’s right. Because if they had done their deeds expecting a reward, their deeds would not have been righteous. They would have been selfish.

Ok, whew. Your next post.

You have confused a few things. I don’t recall mentioning Pelagius, but maybe I did.

Athanasius was primarily the Church father who combated Arianism, which, you’re correct, is not related to Pelagianism (except insofar as all heresy is related). Augustine and Jerome were primarily the Fathers who combated Pelagius.

Were not as big on Augustine in the East as you guys are in the West, although he I still a saint and a Church Father for us. But he erred on the opposite side in our view.

But as for your understanding of these heresies, they are slightly off, I think. At least as I understand them.

The main argument against Pelagius was that he denied the role of grace. He said that we are perfectly capable according to our own free will, which God created us with, of obeying all the commandments and living a perfectly righteous life. His response to the claim that he denied grace was that no he didn’t, because grace was what allowed our wills to be free.

This was condemned, rightly so. We cannot, without grace, and without more grace than our free wills are “naturally” endowed with, live a righteous life. Impossible.

Semi-Palaginsim is a complicated view, and significantly, has NEVER been condemned as a heresy. However, it has heretical tendencies. Part of it IS that we cooperate with God in performing good works. But the heretical semi-pelagian understanding is that, yes, we can do no good without God’s grace, but God’s grace is given to us based on whether we make the initial step towards god. God is waiting for us to make the first move, then He responds with grace. And this too is false and heretical.

We can only respond to God’s grace because God’s grace is given to us FIRST. Without God’s grace, we could not respond to Him. But with God’s grace, we can respond to Him. We still can’t live righteous lives according to our free will, but we can cooperate with his grace, once it has been given, to do more and more good works. God acts first and then man responds. It is like a little baby learning to walk. The child can do nothing towards walking at first. But the parent reaches down and lifts him up by his hands and holds his hands while the infant moves his feet. If the parent let’s go, the baby will fall on its bottom and can do nothing, but conversely, if the baby doesn’t support himself with his feet and move them in rhythm with the parent’s guidance, he also will fall on his bottom. Not because the parent CAN’T hold the baby up or drag him along. The parent is perfectly capable of doing that. But that does the baby no good. So the parent waits until the baby is ready to try again, and then the process starts over. Is the baby walking? No. Is the baby walking by his own power? CERTAINLY not. It can hardly be called walking at all. But the baby is cooperating with the parent to walk, practically speaking. That’s what our deeds are like. We must do what we can, and God responds. If we do nothing, then we gain nothing. It might be better to say God cooperates with us rather than we cooperate with Him, but the point is the same. We must do what we can, and God picks up the slack.

It is my view, and I believe Orthodoxy’s view (but don’t hold them to my claims), that God’s grace is given to all men through the cross and resurrection. Now it is up to us to respond in faith. Those who do and persevere, attain the Kingdom. Those who don’t, do not. To use the same analogy as the baby walking, God reaches out His hands to everyone. Some move their feet and others don’t. Those who move their feet, get to the end of the road. Those who don’t move their feet, just sit there. As C S Lewis said, “All find what they truly seek.” I modify that a bit to “All receive what the truly want.” Those who want salvation, find it. They move their feet, perhaps with their feet barely touching the floor, but they're doing what they can. Those who don’t want salvation (or don't want it ENOUGH), are like the baby who sits on the floor crying because the parent won’t drag him along.

Did that explain the difference? Armenianism? I don’t know anything that about really, except that it’s a reaction to Calvin’s extremes. But all reactions tend to fall into the opposite error.

I don't expect you to agree with what I said, but it should be understandable. And I think it should be clear that it contains no heresy.

(APPARENTLY, half my post got lost. Fortunately this time, I didn't delete it from my WP. So add this post to the end of the one before the one taht discusses heresies.

You know, I’m really starting to hate this site. That should make Juan happy. He can come back. But I have a feeling he’s here anyway. :D)  


Yeah, that’s too bad. That’s part of what got lost.

Ok, here’s the gist of it, if I can make it clear. You take Romans and decided that Romans and Ephesians are the hermeneutical key to James and Matthew. Thus, you have elevated Romans and Ephesians to a level where they are a canon within the canon. Romans has more authority than James because James must be submitted to what Romans says, while Romans stands all by itself. This is illegitimate. They must be put together, not subordinated to one another. The leaves you with a distorted view of Scripture, as I think you have shown.


See your understanding of the Tribulation above. But contrary to your claim, there IS Scriptural evidence for this.



Acts 16:14 - 15 (NKJV)
Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us. She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira, who worshiped God. The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul. And when she and her household were baptized, she begged us, saying, “If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come to my house and stay.” So she persuaded us.

Do you honestly think there were no children in Lydia’s household? It says she “and her household”. No one is excluded here. Not children. Not infants. No one. The entire household was baptized.

Acts 16:32-33 (NKJV)
Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized.

The jailer’s ENTIRE FAMILY was baptized. Again, no one is excluded as being too young. They were ALL baptized. Infants children and adults alike. If you think it is unlikely that these households had no children and/or infants, I would respectfully suggest you do a little historical research.


But let’s suppose these passages didn’t exist. Or even that there is the remote possibility that neither of these families had children. So what? There is nothing in Scripture to prohibit baptizing infants. Especially not when there is even indication that people were baptized for the dead (1 Cor 15:29). If the dead can be baptized for, then certainly an infant can be baptized.  Further, given your Calvinistic understanding, your claim that they don’t understand why they are being baptized is irrelevant and hypocritical. If we don’t have the ability to choose whether we are saved or not, then it doesn’t really matter whether an infant understands what is being done or not, or whether he has been able to formulate a conscious decision. According to you, our conscious decision plays no role in our salvation anyway, so your criticism of us is hypocritical.


So if you don’t separate them in practice, why do you criticize us for recognizing that they aren’t separated? Again Petro, your getting hypocritical. If you too understand that the physical can’t be separated from the spiritual, then what is the problem with our understanding? You can’t criticize us for relating the spiritual and material in an essential manner, if you too recognize this essential union.


This is what I always said. Notice the first of the three “works” I listed: BELIEVE. And if the only critieria for being an acceptable interpretation is that something not contradict the rest of Scripture, then it is perfectly legitimate for me to understand the appearance of god in Ezekiel as a spaceship? After all, that doesn’t contradict ANY Scripture. It is not enough to “not contradict” Scripture. It must be in conformity WITH Scripture. And your interpretation is NOT in conformity with Scripture. You must distort other passages to maintain it. Matt 7 (I REALLY wish my post hadn’t gotten lost, I dealt with this passage in detail)..I can only suggest you read it again. Pay attention how many times Jesus says the righteous are righteous because of what they DO, and how Jesus condemns those who called Him “Lord Lord” because they “practiced lawlessness”. It is ALL OVER that passage.


Of course not. Jesus revealed Himself and the father to ALL MEN. Faith hadn’t been revealed yet because the OBJECT of Faith hadn’t been revealed yet. That doesn’t mean faith didn’t EXIST. Even in the OT, we are told the righteous will live by faith. Just as sin still existed even without the law (remember, the Law only REVEALED sin, it didn’t CREATE sin), so also faith still existed before Christ, it just wasn’t recognized AS faith until Christ, the OBJECT of faith, had appeared.


LOL. I am far too seldom wise enough to let the progress being made determine the persistence of my arguments.

Blessings back. :)
Jim

Ok, I’m going to try to keep this brief.

To answer your question as to what value faith without works has? Nothing. Absolutely nothing.

When I was Protestant, I answered the question the same way you’re doing, but even then I knew it wasn’t a totally adequate answer. Let me explain why.

Your response that works merely DEMONSTRATE our faith is inadequate because James is saying more than that. It is NOT the case that works are merely signs that indicate a true faith, as if there could be a true faith without these works. No James is clear. It is NOT just that they demonstrate faith. They are what makes faith REAL. It is impossible to have real faith and NOT have works. To say that works a merely a sign is saying that they may or may not be there, but the faith is real on its own. After all, a sign is not the thing it signifies. If there is a sign on the road pointing to Dallas, whether the sign is there or not, Dallas is still down the road. You just may not KNOW Dallas is down the road. This is not what James is saying. If the “sign”, i.e. works, isn’t there, then faith isn’t there either.  That’s why faith without works is DEAD. It isn’t sick. It isn’t hidden. It is DEAD.

As for Cor 3, I see nothing here of relevance. That our straw will be burned up is agreed by both sides of this discussion. So whatever else is involved, isn’t germane here.

The Hebrews passage is even more complex. I know of NO “accepted” interpretation of that passage from anyone. But I’m not interested in discussing once saved always saved. I think that’s an open question (I actually think it’s meaningless, which is why I’m not interested in discussing it – it misunderstands all the terms it uses). So let’s just stay with what we’re on. :)

Also, I stated this earlier, but I need to state it again, I think. Works fall under a hierarchy. There are all the individual good works, e.g. helping a lady across the street, feeding the hungry, etc.. These (when they are the types of works that contribute to our salvation) all fall under the category the work of “believing, repenting, and being baptized”. As a genus falls under the category of species. Now of course, all these works can be done in such a way as NOT to contribute to salvation and even contribute to our DAMNATION, if they are done for the sake of personal glory for instance. If they aren’t the fruit of faith, they accomplish nothing. And believing, repenting and being baptized all fall under the further category of loving God and your neighbor, which is the ULTIMATE category of works. It is a hierarchy.

You are making distinctions again between works that aren’t to be distinguished. Feeding the hungry IS the work of faith. It IS believing. It IS being baptized. It IS repenting. Precisely because it IS loving God and our neighbor. All these  works you cite in James are merely subcategories of these HIGHER works. They aren’t distinct from them.

Is that clear?

PS Carthage in 412 condemned Pelagianism, not semi-Pelagianism. This, just to reiterate what I wrote above, is not to declare semi-Pelagianism an acceptable teaching.

The problem is that there is no clear-cut understanding of what semi-Pelagianism is. And I summarized its heretical aspects briefly and clearly (I hope and think).

:)

Nice interpretation, but it isn’t Scriptural. It is your opinion. Unsubstantiated by scriptural support. I’m not saying I disagree with you completely, but you act as if  the “sin of unbelief” is a special category of sin all to itself. This is false and unbiblical. I have read Romans 11, and Hebrews 3 and 4 numerous times and over and over again. You may INTERPRET then to categorize “unbelief” as some special unforgivable sin, but that’s just an opinion, not Scripture carved in stone. I’m even inclined to recognize it as plausible and not too problematic. But your claim that everyone who disagrees with you is contradicting Scripture is false. And the last statement is false and heretical. If you think sin is ok with God you are GREATLY mistaken. And if you think there is one criteria for salvation now and a different one later, you are again GREATLY mistaken, and THAT’S the heresy of Dispensationalism.

The problem is, you have a certain view, and you’re going to make sure Scripture fits it. You think God has ordained that we either go to heaven or hell with no response from us, so you come to passages like Peter “God does not desire than ANY should perish” and force your already preconceived view on it. You already believe works play no role, so when you read James or Matthew, you have to conform these passages to your already preconceived  view. That’s not sin. It’s normal. But it leads to a distorted view of Scripture, and it leads to errors like Calvinism and Armenianism. It’s a shame, because I think you’re a nice guy who is deeply committed to the Lord. Both of those are very good things. I just wish you could recognize the same in others, and recognize the difference between what Scripture says and what you THINK it says.

You’ve come to see particular interpretations of Scripture as being the same as Scripture itself. That’s a tragedy.

Just as there is a hierarchy of good works moving from particular acts of kindness (e.g. feeding the hungry) to belief/repentance/baptism to love, so also is there a hierarchy of sin which moves from particular evil deeds (e.g. murder) to unbelief to pride/arrogance/self love. My gripe with your categorization isn’t that you’ve turned something into a sin which isn’t a sin. Of course unbelief is a sin. My gripe is that you separate it from all other sin as if they are unconnected. This leads you into error in moral understanding and in Scriptural exegesis.



I’m truly sorry you feel that way, because I’ve come to respect you as someone who is deeply committed to serving Christ as he understands him. It’s a shame, as I said above, that you can’t recognize the same in others who disagree with you. You really need to distinguish between what you think Scripture says and what it in fact says. Because as it stands, you seem to think everyone who views Scripture differently than you is a heretic.

I could consider you a friend if you could make that distinction. As it is, you aren’t open to it. That makes me truly sad. Remember my prayer in the other thread? It still applies. I wish God’s greatest possible blessings on you and your family and the rest of your life.

I am amazed, you argue this point in this way.

Grace is not a gift at all, it is the means by which the gift is produced thru faith, and even that faith is granted, thru repentance.

Repentance is not something which can originate within any man of himself, nor can  be produced in himself, as one would pump watert out of a well. It is a divine gift, you can't see this, because, your theology is based on the semi-peliagianistic teaching that, it is a product of man's works.

I will give another scripture, so that you can reject it, also;

Acts 5
30  The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
31  Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Who is in view at these verses, where it says "Israel"??



Armenianism is the protestant version of Semi-Pelegianism, you shouldn't even concern yourself, with another heretical view, it has no value, in as much as it will not bring you into a closer relation with God.




So, you say..

Petro

SonofAslan,

Here is another verse, you can cross out of your bible;  maybe I gave it to you already..

2 Tim 2
24  And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
25  In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;


I must admit, it isn't easy being patient, with you all.

Petro

Why should you have a problem being patient with us? I have no problem being patient with you? In fact, as I have stated, I have come to respect you, even though I disagree with you.


Petro,

Mark 6:12
They went out and preached that people should repent.


Why preach that people should repent if they have  no choice?

Matthew 11:20
Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not

On what basis does Jesus criticize these cities if they had no choice?


Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

How can they be commanded to repent if they have no choice?

Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:


How can God command all men to repent, when we have no choice in whether to repent or not? Ared you saying God commands us to do things while making it impossible that we do them?

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

How can God be willing that all men come to repentance if He chooses who will and who will not repent? Does God contradict His own will?

There are many more, Petro. I do not reject your passages. I just do not interpret them the way you do. I put those passages together with these passages and see them as being complementary. God grants us repentance as the means of salvation. Does this mean we have no choice whether to repent or not? No, but it means if God had not granted it, repentance would effect nothing. We choose whether to repent, thus takingf hold of the gift, or to not repent, thus rejecting the gift.

If you have a different view of these passages and others where repentance is commanded, please share it.

Hail Aslan, King of Narnia!!!!!

*Lion's roar heard in the distance

Two reasons:
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
and the second,
That those who had been elected and predestinated, from before the foundations of the world (the sheep), should hear and believe.  No one knows who they are, I dare  to say,  they don't even know, before they are saved. And certainbly the Evil One doesn't either, this is why, he will kill, anyone and everyone, he can,  in hopes of snaring one of them.
[quoted]
Matthew 11:20
Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not
On what basis does Jesus criticize these cities if they had no choice?
Note, what He did in these cities;  "mighty works", they, Chorazin and Bethsaida,  didn't want neither desired, to repent, and furthermore, Jesus refers to Tyre and Sidom who had fallen under the judgement of God, because of wickedness and idolatry, stating that,  had these"mighty works" (which He refers to) would have repented in sackcloth and ahes, long ago,

But these would not repent after seen this miracles, because of their  "unbelief and hardness of heart"

There is no choice to this matter, God commands it, period.
The natural man, reasons in himself;  Whay do I need to repent?
I am not as bad as that man over there or this guy over here, this is the wisdom of the world, which is used to analyze, Gods will.  
"The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain."
This is a good verse;  God,.........commandeth all men every where to repent:


I am not saying anything other than what scripture says;
Repentance is not mouthing words and executing rituals, true repentance involves the will. and scripture states:
Joining a church, shaking the priests hand, and giving a testimony, nor being wtare baptized has yet to save anyone.

God who knows the heart, works in every man he draws to the truth of His Word, to will His will, and do of his good pleasure, it occurs even while yet in unbelif.
Phil 2
13  For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

{quote]
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

How can God be willing that all men come to repentance if He chooses who will and who will not repent? Does God contradict His own will?This is a mystery.. I don't question his motives, the same Word which speaks to all, speaks to me, what is plain is that the Word says;  "It is He who grants repentance"
This is plain (Acts 11:18, 2 Pet 3:9), He elects, predestinates, and judges because He is Soveriegn.....

I can't disgree with you stated above, He grants repentance to whom He wills to do grant it to, this plain as daylight.
Well, I am amazed you see this, if He does not grant repentance, how is works going to do obtain anything for you?, or Baptism, or observing sacramentals, or membership in an institution, etc.

I am not sure what you see, here, if you elaborated on this simplistic answer perhaps, I could comment, the gift is not in view herein, at this point.
The very Gospel which calls for repentance produces it.  This clearly seeing in the experience of the people of Nineveh (Jonah 3:5-10), when thewy heard the preaching of the Word of God, they truned to God, not seeking a gift, but seeking to be forgiven, because they believed the message.
The same is true of the men unto whom Peter preached on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:37-38), they were pricked in their heart, note at verse 38, they new nothing of a gift.  You know about a gift because you have the luxury of possessing a bible.
 
.

Different views where repentance is commanded??

I don't have any different views other than those I have expressed in accordance to what the Word teaches.

My views won't change the truth, anyhow..




Blessings,  
Petro

So we have a choice in whether we repent or not? I can decide? If it involves my will, I can choose it or reject it. If God forces me to do it, it doesn’t involve the will.




If your view can't account for all of Scripture, it is false. If your view entails looking at 2 Peter and saying "It makes no sense". Your view is false.

That's it. i'm done.  God's blessing to you, Petro. I sincerely wish you all God's best. :)
Jim

Your ability to choses is not what you think it is, you think you chose to believe in Christ, when in fact this is not so.

The only think you can do is agree with God, you are a sinner, headed for an eternity in hell, and only when you come to this conclusion, will God give the gift of faith, to this individual.



If your view can't account for all of Scripture, it is false. If your view entails looking at 2 Peter and saying "It makes no sense". Your view is false.

It is nonsense to say everyone must account for all scripture, obviouly you can't account for all scripture, since the just shall live by faith, from faith unto faith, if one could account for all scripture, there would be no need for faith, since his walk would be by sight.  This is why, you can't see this, you think, only when you see it plainly that only then it must be of god, so you allow yourself to be carried about by every wind of doctrine, including those that get regurgitated.


Well, I wouldn't want you to leave, with at least giving you a verse.

I suppose I shouldn't have saved it for you till now, but nevertheless here it is;


1 Cor 12
7  But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8  For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9  To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10  To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11  But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.


I am sure verse 9 above, means nothing to you, but unfortunately, it states, the opposite of what you want scripture to teach you.

But what can I say, it is God the Spirit that gives the gifts according to His will not ours.

God Bless, anyhow...

Petro

"Two reasons:
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe."

This, doesn't actually answer SOA's question.  His question was not "why did they preach?", but why are they telling people they should, if they have no choice in the matter?  In your formulation, this makes no sense.  There is no reason why anyone should repent, only that they will.  To anyone not reading into the text, should is clearly an indication that repentance is conditional, that it is not forced.  Otherwise, it would just be a command to repent.  Those who were elected would do so and be saved, and those who weren't elected, would not and remain dead.  

"No one knows who they are, I dare  to say,  they don't even know, before they are saved. And certainbly the Evil One doesn't either, this is why, he will kill, anyone and everyone, he can,  in hopes of snaring one of them."

You posted this somewhere else, also, I showed you how illogical it is.  The elect are the elect are the elect.  If an elect dies before being saved and then goes to hell, he was never elect, and God was therefore wrong about who the elect are.  And, if no one knows who they are, how do you know that I'm not, or that SOA is not?  

"Note, what He did in these cities;  "mighty works", they, Chorazin and Bethsaida,  didn't want neither desired, to repent, and furthermore, Jesus refers to Tyre and Sidom who had fallen under the judgement of God, because of wickedness and idolatry, stating that,  had these"mighty works" (which He refers to) would have repented in sackcloth and ahes, long ago,"  

Note the emphasis I put on your quote.  You're violating your stated position.  What does their will have to do with it?  What do their wants or desires have to do with whether or not God chooses to save them?  Not a darn thing!  So why are you bringing it up?  

"But these would not repent after seen this miracles, because of their  "unbelief and hardness of heart" "

But per your theology, they are unbelieving and heard of heart because God made them that way.  He could have given them the faith they needed to repent, but did not.  Let me pose a question to you.  I know you have kids.  Would you upraid your 2 week old son for pooping on the floor, especially if you had told him before not to do it, and really, really didn't want him too?

"There is no choice to this matter, God commands it, period. "

Do you believe that the Word of God is effectual, and cannot be blocked by any human action or desire?

"The natural man, reasons in himself;  Whay do I need to repent?
I am not as bad as that man over there or this guy over here, this is the wisdom of the world, which is used to analyze, Gods will."

Perhaps it is, and perhaps it isn't.  I think you should reacquaint yourself with Romans 7.  
 
"This is a good verse;  God,.........commandeth all men every where to repent:"

Then why don't they?  Come on, if God, if the absolutely sovereign God of the universe COMMANDS all men to repent, why don't they?  How are they able to resist it and not repent?  

"This is a mystery.. I don't question his motives, the same Word which speaks to all, speaks to me, what is plain is that the Word says;  "It is He who grants repentance""

It is only a mystery because your theology does violence to the passage, as it does many others.  Lets re-examine the command verse above briefly.  You are left with only two reasonable options as to how men resist the command to repentance.  The first, the view that I hold, and I believe SOA holds, is that man's will is enabled by grace to respond to the offer of salvation by faith.  Man, in some manner, fashion or way, responds to the offer and he repents.  The second is your view, which is that man is completely unable to respond, and that it is all on God's side to effect repentance, faith and salvation (in no particular order).  

So, in your view, all men are commanded to repent by God, but prevented from doing so by God.  Doesn't that really mean that not all men are commanded to repent?  In all honesty, that verse only means that some are commanded to repent, and are forced to do so by God's irresistible grace.  So God's word is a lie now?  What about a house divided against itself?  It seems like God is both working for and against salvation.  

Now, you will surely respond by saying that it is not up to you to question God's motives or actions.  This is a straw-man argument, one intended to imply that I or SOA is doing just that.  In fact, we are not. We are pointing out the logical failings of your arguments and theology.  We are not questioning God, we are questioning you.  I know I've written those exact words to you before, and I'm sure they'll fall on the same deaf ears this time, as well.  So I have a challenge for you, if you're up to it.  Respond to my post without referencing me a single time, beyond quoting what I said.  Do not mention me, my beliefs, my actions or my postings from any other thread.  Try to respond to mine and SOA's points based solely on our arguments.  No taunts, no vague comments about questioning God or challenging his will.  It'll be interesting to see if you are able to do so.

For the little I have read.  Regarding petro's statment about unbelief.  It's stated time and time again but here's a good clincher for you.....Joh 3:36  He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Gee I don't know why would use silly folk think that unbelief has a large part in everything.  We won't even talk about Abraham and how his "faith" was counted for righteousness.


Seriously SOA I love these comments from you.  They make me chuckle everytime.  Yer quite funny really.  Especially with all of your added things and blatent ignoring of some scripture.  Oh well guess it's that orthodox slant you were taught.

S4E

You really should read the entire discussion before jumping in. You totally failed to grasp what the whole “unbelief” thing was about. No one has denied that we are saved through faith and we are damned through unbelief. Read everything in its entirety before commenting. :)

Further, you have no idea what Orthodoxy is and what I was taught. You guys really drive me nuts with this junk. I spent 25+ reading Scripture all alone. I was NOT Orthodox. I was NOT Catholic. I was a simple Christian who believed the only thing that mattered was what Scripture said. So I read it. And I read ONLY it. And I prayed, every night, as I read Scripture, that God would guide me. I did that for 25+ years. Every day. I missed maybe 3 days in over 25 years. And I didn’t read just one chapter a day. I read., And I read. And I read. No notes, no lights, no motor car. Not a single luxury. I looked to NO MAN for guidance in how I was to understand Scripture. In the words of Paul, “I did not confer with any human being” (Gal 1:15). I studied only the Word of God without a single outside resource. Not even a cross-reference. I wanted NOTHING to taint the Word. And you know what I came to believe? Exactly what the Orthodox Church teaches. I changed not a jot or a tittle of my belief when I converted. THAT’S the difference. Calvin isn’t my guide to Scripture. Neither is any other man. No Sunday School teacher. No pastor. Only the Word Itself and the Holy Spirit. Believe that if you will, but it is absolute truth. I would swear on something, but Scripture teaches us “Let your yes be yes and your no be no.” So I was taught what I believe by NO ONE. Not Orthodoxy. Not Calvin. Not Hal Lindsey. Not Tim LaHaye. Not Billy Graham. Not ANYONE. Purely from the Scriptures and the Holy Spirit, which if read honestly and sincerely will guide men “into all truth”. But your interpretations are so clouded by the “traditions of men” that you can’t see straight. Remove the log from your own eye, and then you will be able to see what Scripture itself says without all this junk you have obscured it with. So the truth is, S4E, that you haven’t got the first CLUE what I was taught. Why? Because you would rather be deceived. If you DID know what I was taught, then you would have to agree with Scripture, and THEN you couldn't stay in your comfortable deception where you can do whatever you like and God is obligated to save you because you parroted some "sinner's prayer" when you were 6 years old.

I have shown you the truth. I have warned you. If you reject the truth now, it is on your own head. (Ezekiel 33:9)

I'm sorry, but i'm getting a bit frustrated by the non-responsiveness of you Protestant types (with the exception of Petros -- at least HE deals with what I say, for the most part, instead of idiotic statements like "you really make me chuckle").

If the entirety of the argument you can make against me is “You really make me chuckle…but I guess that’s the orthodox slant you were taught” then I guess you really don’t have a Scriptural leg to stand on, do you.

pnotc,


This, doesn't actually answer SOA's question. His question was not "why did they preach?", but why are they telling people they should, if they have no choice in the matter? In your formulation, this makes no sense. There is no reason why anyone should repent, only that they will. To anyone not reading into the text, should is clearly an indication that repentance is conditional, that it is not forced. Otherwise, it would just be a command to repent. Those who were elected would do so and be saved, and those who weren't elected, would not and remain dead. [/quoted]


Lets look at SonofAslan's question, again;


I answered this, but I can, again, if you missed it, the answer is; "because God commands all  men everywhere to repent" Acts 17:30.

But the scripture has concluded that all are dead in sin, none can or will repent, and Jesus, says;

Men,  "loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.  (Jhn 3:17-21), this a present day truth.

Speaking of Israel He says, "This people have I formed for myself; they shall show forth my praise." (Isa 43:21)

I know you will say well this speaking specifically of the Nation of Israel, ......... this is why, these things sound illogical to you.

But the fact is the NT, clears this up, to them that can see.

The apostle Paul tells us in Eph 1, That the God and Father of the Lord Jesus, has chosen some in Him, having predestinated them unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, (This is speaking of these whom He has give to Jesus) but of course those that prevert the Gosple will change this to mean, men chose God, by emphasizing and teaching thi, over that it is God, that does the chosing.

I say this is not only not true, it is illogical, because those who are made to hear and believe, are them the have been given hearing, and have been chosen of God to receive what they could never hear nor receive, without His divine intervention. You don't believe this,  since by your way of thinking, men produce the faith of themselves and it must include good works or they don't, and the emphasis is on good works, oh... yes I have heard it already, you don't believe the works themselves save, you they are only a part of salvation; I say bunk...........

I suggest to you, that is illogocal according to the scriptures, because they teach it is by faith and not works.
 

You reason this because you do not believe God is Soveriegn.

To your human understanding this sounds reasonable, unfortunately the mysteries of the Kingdom are given to be understood to His elect, and we understand it perfectly, this is why we believe the scriptures.

But I can see you undertand, what Satan understands, he knows that their is a seed of heirs to the promises of God out there somewhere, and because God has a hedge around those who walk according to his will (that is those who are subject to the Spirit), there are some that do not, and these whose works are  wood, hay, stubble; and he (the evil one) percieves these, maybe be vulnerable, so if he can cause their death, then he will have frusterated the plan of God.  

But since Gods plan was formulated from the begining, and He is Sovereign, the onus is on Him, to bring His plan to fruitition. We are confident He will, just as He has promised.  

You don't, but it is no, secret why that is..ou only believe what appeals to you.

We don't know who the sheep or the goats are, some sheep look like goats, until the lords cleans them up, so this is why we preach the Gosple, (the unsearchable riches of Christ) to all creatures.


This last statement of yours, really shows your unbelief;

Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. (2 Tim 2:19)


Your own words give you away, I am not surprised you have to ask such a question.

You fall under one of two categories; The fact you insist you are one and cannot reconcile scripture., may  eliminate one, but they are;

1.  The unbeliever;  

"Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed." (1 Pet 2:7-8)

2. The babe in Christ;

 "For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
  But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil." (Heb 5:13-14)

I trust you fall under the latter category, which is better than the former. I say this , Because what you have revealed herein, sure makes one wonder.

But then again, FAITH cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. (Rom 10:17)

The promises of God are to the seed of Abraham (not children of the flesh, but the children of ther promise), and only those with the faith of Abraham are counted for the seed (Rom (:8)

The angel who appeared to, and when speaking to Mary, said "and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. (Mat 1:21)

His people are   [color-Red]"All that the Father giveth me"[/color] according to Jesus. (Jhn 6:37)

And as I answered SOA, He chose to save those whom He saves by the foolishness of preaching. (1 Cor 1:21)


Idolaters will never repent...since they think, they serve and worship the true God contrary and in the face of His known will.


This is evident, the elect do not block Gods working in them, they welcome it and obtain the promise by faith, because of God's "effetcual" drawing/working in them.

        Cont'd....

Cont'd.....................


It is given to some while not others, He is SOVEREIGN, You must frist accept this premise, instead of letting rub you the wrong way, this really is the issue, which prevents you from seeing or understanding these things.

Because He who knows the hearts of all men, sees, something, which cause Him, not to grant repentance,  putting  it the way scripture tells us it is;

We have already gone over this in another thread;

Rom 9
13  As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14  What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15  For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16  So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy.
17  For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18  Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

And to your question; Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? vs 19

You need to read the rest of the Chapter.

I have already gone around circles with you on this.


Hah..........So, just because you and SOA, hold to a certain view, this makes it the truth??  Thats a good one........I do enjoy a good chuckle here and there..


I never said all are preventede.  Your view is based on soemthing I never said at ALL.  

See what I am saying about you,                                      you simply want to be contentious for the sake of arguing.


Absolutely.


Thats false..


According to you it is.


He is going to save His elect chosen, He is working to accomplish it, and will.

You do like to argue, you are  attributing words to me I never said; and you are being ridicules now, the verse reads:  

" commandeth all men every where to repent:",

for you to make such a statement and interpreting to mean soimething other than what it says, is to deny what the written word specifically states, no wonder you have such a hard time believing the Word of God.


You sound like a frustrated  nut...wanting to argue what you really don't believe,  what you won't be satisifed until I  agree with you..??

Ssheeeeesh...............Whats wrong with you, anyhow..


Petro

Our view is illogical, yet you continue to say that God commands all men to repent, and then prevents some of them from doing so.

So God prevents people from doing that which He commands they do?

In case you don't like the God "prevents"  them angle,m i'll explain it anotehr way.

You sayd God commands all men to repent. But they can only repent if He makes them repent (after all, they have no choice in the matter). So God commands them to do something they can only do if He allows them,  and yet He refuses to allow them to repent. Thus, in your view, God commands all men to do something  which He refuses to allow them to do. And we're illogical? And we contradict Scripture?

Sovereignty is not an issue, as I explained previously.

The word is "grants" not "makes", quite a difference.

There is a reason, why he does not grant repentance, I know this is tough on you, but you make it tough on yourself, when you don't submit yourself to Gods Word.

This is why you cannot understand, I am am wondering by now if you can hear??


I guess it has something to do with, the way they see, them selves, Gods commands all men everywhere to repent, but if some aks themselves;

"repent from what"?,

which is kind of like the questions you and pnotch, have been asking.

I ask that individual, doesn't see himself as a sinner, that bad off,m where he needs to repent, kind of like the Pharisee and the Publican at Lk 18:11-14.

This man simply justifies himself, should God, grant such a man repentace??    Maybe you can guess again...


I tell you in that it wil be; a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.



Blessings,

Petro



  and yet He refuses to allow them to repent. Thus, in your view, God commands all men to do something  which He refuses to allow them to do. And we're illogical? And we contradict Scripture?

Sovereignty is not an issue, as I explained previously.

OK Petro, I'm ging to ask a straightforward question now which requires nothing more than a simple answer.

Wjhen God commands us to repent, do we have a choice whether we repent or not?

You're talking out of both sides of your mouth now. One minute you say we have no choice that we can only do it if God "grants" it to us. The next you say God doesn't make us do it. I want a straight answer. Do I have a choice whether to obey God's command or not?

And please, don't tell me I have the choice to obey it, but I don't have the choice to disobey it. That is meaningless.

SonofAslan,

To your question

Do I have a choice whether to obey Gods command or not?

The answer you want is a big yes, unfortunately,

however,

Gods word says you would never choose to, because you can't.

Now let me share what the Bible says;

In and of yourself, you would never  choose, to repent because of three reasons;

1.  You would never want to. (Rom 3:11-12), because, you are lumped in with the rest of us.

Was it you that said, the book of Romans and some other book are the most misintrepreted, I can see why, you despise it.

2.  You were spiritually dead in sin and tresspasses, helpless to do anything about your sinfull condition; spiritually dead; (Eph 2:1)    

One, only speaks out of both sides of his mouth if his tongue is cloven. And they that deny the Word of God, may have such a tongue...

Do you deny these first two points??


3.  Spiritually dead, unable to know, hear and receive God's word.  Remember (1 Cor 2:14)

Do you deny this point as well??


And above all else, You could never repent, because you loved darkness rather than light, because your deeds (works) were evil, and everyone that works evil, hates the light, neither comes to the light, that his deeds might be reproved. (Jhn 3:19-21)

I bet you disagree with this point also,

So now, tell me, how was it you came to repentance, anyhow................on your own??  

Without God's, divine intervention in your life, you could never do anything,  

Would you disagree with this point also??

But God enabled you, to repent, when He revealed to you, what a great sinner you were, and that He loved you enough to die in the place of yourself for your sins, it was His goodness which led you to the truth of this matter and enabled you to repent.

Rom 2
2:1  Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
2  But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
3  And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
4  Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5  But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6  Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

Lets pull this verse 4, out here into the open.

Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

Do you deny the goodness of God led you and enabled you to repent??

Can you give an answer, from your vantage point, which will not deny these points.

If you can, please do....


I won't...

Everyone is saved the same way, would you deny this is true..

If you were granted the gift differently, please tell us about it..


You need to confess..O man.... you are wrong, and He is true and right.


Blessings,

Petro

P.S. I won't be able to teach you further on this matter, until I return, after July 4, have a nice one.
How about you??

This AM, As I read scripture and prayed, I came across this verse I am sharing here, with you.  

2 Cor 7
9  Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing.
10  For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.


Consider Esau, a fornicator and profane man, who had an inheritance, that he despised, because he trusted in himself.

The scriptures say about him, that he;

..........afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears. (Heb 12:17)

And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.


As a servant of God, it isn't easy dealing with people who consider themselves wise in wisdom and understanding,of the things of God, and I confess, I haven't been altogether patient and gentle with some of you, but it is because you drive us to scorn, thru your childish, arguments, wanting to re lay the foundation to repentance by faith in dead works.

Petro

Petro-

I am, unfortunately, a bit short on time right at the moment, but I will definitely respond to your posts later this weekend.  Even from a quick scan of your posts, I've seen more than a few inconsistencies and misintepretations, so I am definitely looking forward to responding.

And I see that even your admission of wrongdoing includes yet another insult...

"but it is because you drive us to scorn, thru your childish, arguments,"

Jam 3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, [and] easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

I see why you despise the Book of James so...

pnotc and SOA,

I look forward to your responses.  You have to admit that James can be a little hard to take since he says it like it is and sugarcoats nothing.  That may be why at least a couple of the Reformers wanted to remove James from the canon of scriptures (even though the Scriptures say that you aren't supposed to add or remove from them).  However, James is part of the scripture, so if we believe that the scriptures are true, then we must accept everything that they say.  We can't pick and choose what to believe.  We must take all that the scriptures say on a subject into account.  We let the scriptures mold our beliefs, not make the scriptures mold to what we believe.  

Also, I'm learning that true repentence means accepting responsibility for my actions, thoughts, and emotions without blaming anyone else for them or making excuses.  I can't change anyone else--only myself.  Therefore, if I find myself being judgmental and condemning or angry and irritated, that is my problem, and by God's grace, I'd better learn to get these things under control and confess each time that I fall short of that.      

Thank you for being straightforward and honest in your answer.

So we have no choice. You are wrong. I don't WANT to have a choice. I would much rather you were right so I can lay all the blame for whatever happens to me on God and not have to take any of the responsibility myself. The problem is that Scripture denies this udnerstanding, and I feel more compelled to follow Scripture than Calvin. "Whether it is right in the sight of God to listen to you more than to God, you judge."

Corinthians 7 – where is our choice denied? It says godly sorrow works unto repentance. Of course it does. When I’m sorry for something I did, then I can repent of it. Choice is not denied here. Paul’s hearers could just as easily have ignored what he said, but no, they decided to respond with sorrow and repentance.

Hebrews 12:17 – He wanted to get his blessing back. This doesn’t refer to salvation at all. Esau had rejected his birthright, and when Isaac gave Jacob the birthright, Esua wanted Isaac to repent and change his mind, but Isaac refused.  The repentance he sought wasn’t his own repentance, but he sought get his father to repent of giving the birthright to Jacob. Yes, he sought repentance. He sought Isaac’s repentance.

And Timothy again; “In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.”

Notice who is recovering these people from the snares of the devil? THEY are. How is this possible if they have no choice? Why are they instructed if they have no choice in whether they repent or not? This passage, just like Philippians, talks about us cooperating with God.  

You read these passages and ignore others. “ These are the things you should have done without neglecting the others.”

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


Ezekiel 33:11
Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Jeremiah 36:3
It may be that the house of Judah will hear all the evil which I purpose to do unto them; that they may return every man from his evil way; that I may forgive their iniquity and their sin.

If God’s the one who decides and we have no choice, how can God say “it MAY be that…”? Or has God not yet decided whether to make them repent or not? Is God trying to make up His mind? Or perhaps His will is battling itself to see whether His will to refuse them repentance is greater than His will to make them repent?


If we have no choice, this means God acts according to His own will, but He tells us His own will is that NONE should perish and that ALL should turn from wickedness. If my will plays no role, and only God’s will does, and God’s will is that ALL turn, please explain how it can be that all do not repent and find salvation? Is God forced by some necessity to do that which He doesn’t will? Does His will contradict His willYou said WE deny God’s sovereignty, but you force Him to do that which He doesn’t will to do. ? Your teaching turns God schizophrenic.

You must CHOOSE this day who you will follow, Calvin or the Lord. As for me and my house, we will follow the Lord. Joshua 24:15

It is useless, you simply can't see it, therefore, you can't understand it.

Esau, was rejected by God, way before, He sold his birthright, and the scriptures reveal to us, that God hated Esau, but loved Jacob, before either of them were born or had done right or wrong.

All, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;

And God said to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy.

All that is left now, is for you to call God, unrighteous..

I encourage you to keep seeking his face, and pray that you may find the grace which is necessary to come to God who gives men faith.

But, I would derelict not to warn you, there is a point, where God Spirit will no longer strive, with them that oppose the teaching of the Spirit, and idolatry is not a sin, to take lightly, and there is no turning back, once a man, knows the way, if he should take to turning from it.

God Bless,

Petro

I think the fact that you pretend you you read scripture for 25 years without any aid is ridiculous.  If I recall you said you started out "protestant and then found after some reading you then disagreed.  Whtaever you want to believe.  You want to know some added garbage you believe?  That God grants Mary's wishes.  That's beyond foolish and completely unbiblical.  THen again you say you read scripture only but I bet you read the apocrypha crap and call it scripture.


Where did you come up with this garbage?  Do you always make things up about people?  I never said a "sinners prayer" and I certainly never said anythign of the like when I was six.  I haven't even been saved for all that long.  Where did you also come up with the slander that, I believe I can do as I wish because God is obligated to save me?

I've never made any such statment or alluded to it either.  This is another reason I don't bother getting into much with you.  You're so busy playing righteous you don't even give God and credit for what He's done.  You parrot on about how it's by faith and than rant around about hopw holy you are and if you aren't doing X,Y,Z like you than one isn't in the know like you.  I have my beliefs BECAUSE I read my bible not because someone else told me.  You're free to your opinionshow ever off hey are.

Take care



Oh yeah, and this line here coming from an orthodox/RCC is always a good one.  Really it is.

Continue on being religious.....

Petro-

"It is useless, you simply can't see it, therefore, you can't understand it."

A conveniently self-serving defense.  Anyone who disagrees with you is blind, ignorant, likely not one of the elect, so why bother listening to what he has to say, right?

I notice that you repeatedly fail to reconcile verses.  You rely heavily on Romans 3, yet do not take into account Romans 7 - what is it that Paul desires to do, and yet cannot because of sin?

vs 18 "...For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out."  - This violates Calvinisms tenets on the sinful nature of man wanting only to sin.  Here Paul explicitly states that he wishes to do good, but cannot.  

vs 19 "For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing." - How can he not want to sin, not want to do evil if he is fallen?  How can he have that desire?

vs 22 "For I delight in the law of God after the inward man" -
Here "man" means specifically human, ie, not spiritual.  The inward man, the soul, delights in God's law and wants to follow it, wants to please God, but is prevented from doing so by the outer man, by the flesh ands its bondage to sin.  

3:10 "There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God."  - This says nothing about desire!  There is no one that understands what they must do to please God, blinded as they are by sin.  But this does not mean they do not desire it.  There are certainly some, even many, who would reject God, as wholly consumed by their sin as they are.  But there are those would still desire salvation and grace.  And "seeketh" means to diligently pursue or chase after - how can any of us diligently pursue God when we were confounded and ensnared by sin?  As it says in the next verse, we have all gotten off the way and been decieved.  

Since you seem to answer only those questions which suit you in any of my posts, I'll only ask you one:  How do you reconcile Romans 7 with Romans 3 without doing violence to either text?  

pnotc,

Do you want to know, so that you can continue to suppress the truth and deny it, or because you want to know the truth of what these scriputres teach.

Wasn't it you who, stated; The Book of Romans is the book, more often misquoted??

Your question is to continue your weak arguments, and;

To me this means you already have an answer, I say, work it out yourself..if............. you don't know.

But thanks for your invitation anyhow...

Let me express my gratitude for those of you who have the patience to talk to such arrogance.

"Do you want to know, so that you can continue to suppress the truth and deny it, or because you want to know the truth of what these scriputres teach."

Are you claiming not to have a lens of interpretation?  Our pov is subjective and yours is objective for the simple fact that it is yours?

"It is useless, you simply can't see it, therefore, you can't understand it."

"but it is because you drive us to scorn, thru your childish, arguments"

I suppose one could let ones own words speak for oneself.  These sort of statements reveal character. I can see you have attained great spiritual wisdom to speak with such authority.

A sinner,

Well now...

The POV's shared here from those who claim to possess faith, is self evident, that their faith is not on what God, has done and continues to do, but in what they (those who claim it)themselves do.

But unto us who believe, the Holy Spirit is given, that we might know the things that are freely given to us by Him.

Proof of this is in the doctrines you espouse to, which deny the gift of eternal security,  you simply deny it, making God out to be a liar.

And don't make any bones about it...

That you are a sinner is true, and so am I, but thank God, he has forgiven me.. He can do the same for you..


P.S.  Your signature, quotes, A. Tarvosky, is he the same communist wrter who was exiled to siberia..?

Petro

Petro-

Nope, I'm not the one who talked about misintepretations of Romans, though I certainly agree with that statement.  I think it was offered by SOA.  

And just as I thought - you can't reconcile the verses. Your proof-texts fall apart when taken in light of the totality of scripture.  I can reconcile them perfectly well.  My challenge was to see if you could, and you clearly cannot.  

"The POV's shared here from those who claim to possess faith, is self evident, that their faith is not on what God, has done and continues to do, but in what they (those who claim it)themselves do."

All we claim to do is respond to God's offer of Grace.  I'm sorry that bothers you so much, but it isn't a "work", it isn't earning our salvation or saving ourselves.  It is the acceptance of the free gift of grace, the grace which brings salvation.  You know, you never did answer my question:  how would you react to your 2-week old son if he pooped on the rug, even after you told him not to and made it perfectly clear you abhorred it, hated it and could not even stand to look upon it?  

"But unto us who believe, the Holy Spirit is given, that we might know the things that are freely given to us by Him."

Yeah, those of us who believe know grace is free and salvation unmerited.  A gift of pure mercy and benevolence, unearned and unforced.  

"Proof of this is in the doctrines you espouse to, which deny the gift of eternal security,  you simply deny it, making God out to be a liar."

Really?  Why are we told then, that those who endure to the end will be saved?  Why does Paul himself state it may be possible for even him to lose his final reward?  Why does Hebrews 6 talk of those who fall away, never to be brought back to repentance?  Likely more references you cannot reconcile.  

"That you are a sinner is true, and so am I, but thank God, he has forgiven me.. He can do the same for you.."

He already has.

You know, I'm sometimes gifted with prophecy.  I prophesy that you will not respond to a single argument or question, will not even attempt to reconcile the scripture references, and will respond in a post laced with invective and insults.  :)

pnotc,

You stated, you do not believe in "eternal security" a mere page back, (maybe not even that), are you saying you have found faith in it, today..??

If you have I congratulate you..there still is hope for you..


Petro

pnotc,

you said;


According to SoA, grace is not part of the gift, it is the vehicle God uses to impart salvation which is the gift, of Eph 2:8-9.    Which is it??


and then again;


Are you likening yourself to a two year old child still, pooping whereever it please you??  

You said, You were 33 years old bible school graduate, as I recall, by know you ought to be a teacher  (remember you taught bible to high school and college aged young people)
and yet from what you would teach herein, it appears you need to be taught the first principles of of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk.

This is evidenced by your wanderings, from the Wesleyan (non-denominational camp) to nearly the opposite end of the spectrum of mans version of christondom, Orhtodoxy, because of every wind of doctrine, that catches yopur fancy.

You have to admit you have gone a long way, from praying directly to God, through Jesus, to praying to God, through dead saints, which can't hear...............you, anyhow.



Petro