ChristiansUnite Forums

Matthew 9:35 (KJV): "And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people."

Luke 8:1 (KJV): "And it came to pass afterward, that he went throughout every city and village, preaching and shewing the glad tidings of the kingdom of God: and the twelve were with him,"

Acts 1:3 (KJV): "To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:"

Acts 8:5,12 (KJV): "5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women."

Acts 19:8 (KJV): "And he went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God."

Acts 20:25 (KJV): "And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more."

Acts 28:23,30,31 (KJV): "23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 30 And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him, 31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him."

The common element in all the above is the gospel of the Kingdom of God. An interesting development is Luke's account in Luke 8:1 where he says that Jesus was "preaching and shewing the glad tidings of the kingdom of God" while in Acts 8:5 he says Philip "preached Christ unto them". Luke also summarises this preaching in Acts 8:12 as "the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ". Luke uses the same language and does not draw any obvious distinction between what Philip taught in Acts 8:5,12 and what Paul taught in Acts 28:23,30-31 "Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ".

These two aspects then are a summary of the gospel preached and revealed by Jesus, and preached by Philip and by Paul. In both Acts 8 and Acts 28 Luke does not detail what Philip and Paul preached on these occasions, but is content to summarise these by these two aspects. On other occasions Luke gives more details of the speeches given by the Apostles, eg Peter in Acts 2, also Acts 3, and Paul in Acts 13. A careful assessment of each of these speeches will reveal the same two aspects of the gospel, the glad tidings of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ.

Briefly looking at Acts 3, Peter in vvs 12-18, 22-26 speaks of the things concerning the name of Jesus Christ, and in vvs 19-21 the things concerning the kingdom of God including the return of Jesus Christ to refresh and restore all things.
Acts 3:19-21 (KJV): "19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began."
Even these verses appear to be a summary of what Peter said, and such phrases as "the times of refreshing" and "the times of restitution of all things" could be explained and expanded by reference to that "which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began". A few examples 2 Samuel 23:1-5, Psalm 8, Psalm 72, Isaiah 2:1-4, Daniel 2:44. Each of these speak of the establishment of the Kingdom of God upon this earth when Christ returns.

Kind regards
Trevor

BigD responds:
Trevor:

The "kingdom of God" includes His entire creation. Therefore, when ever we see that phrase we must take it in the context of that particular passage in the Bible. God's kingdom includes everything above the earth, on the earth and under the earth.

As you have shown in you posting, Jesus came to earth preaching "the gospel of the kingdom." That is the kingdom that was promised to the nation of Israel, and will be established here upon the earth for 1,000 years.

The Church for today, the Body of Christ, is never promised a kingdom here upon the earth. We believers are destined to inherit God's kingdom, but it will be in heaven (2Cor5:1; Philipians 3:20).

God had a purpose in creating the universe. We can find that purpose in Ephesians 2-9-14.
9   Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10   That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11   In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12   That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13   In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14   Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Further, in Philippians 2:10 ,11 we read: "That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father."

So my conclusion is that God's purpose of creation is that He might be glorified by His entire creation.  Those that were promised an earthly kingdom will praise God from there place here upon the earth in His earthly kingdom, and the Body of Christ will be praising God from their position in heaven. Yes, even those that are to spend eternity "under the earth" will bow their knee and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Much and Love The Lord!

enjoying this thread :)

Howdy BigD,

Greetings. BigD wrote: Yes, we need to consider each context. In some contexts the "Kingdom of God" speaks of the replacement of the present kingdoms of men with the Kingdom of God when Christ returns.
Daniel 2:44 (KJV): "And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever."

BigD wrote: I do not believe that the Bible teaches we go to heaven when we die or when Christ returns. The term "Kingdom of God" is mainly used in the records of Mark and Luke, and the term "Kingdom of Heaven" is mainly used in the record of Matthew. A careful comparison of the usage of these terms reveals that these two terms are equivalent.

An example of Paul's preaching shows that both Abraham and the believer in Christ partake of the same inheritance, God's Kingdom on earth.
Galatians 3:16,26-29 (KJV): "16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise."

Paul's comments are based upon the promise of the land to Abraham and his seed in
Genesis 13:14-15 (KJV): "14 And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: 15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever."

Kind regards
Trevor

BigD wrote:

Trevor responded:

BigD replies:
The Daniel passages are referring to the earthly kingdom that is promised to Israel. The Church, the Body of Christ is not in view here. It is still future revelation. The Gospels primarily speak of the kingdom that is to be established upon the earth.

BigD wrote:

Trevor responded:

BigD responds:
In Galatians 2:6 we learn that the believer today is already positionally with Christ in "heavenly places."

2Corinthians 5:1 states: "For we (believers) know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, etertnal in the heavens."

I do not see an earthly kingdom here.

Philippians 3:20 For our conversation (citizenship [NIV]) is in heaven: from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ.

In 1Thessalonians 4:16-17 Paul is speaking to believers concerning the rapture of the Chruch, the Body of Christ.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

The above is not the 2nd coming of Christ to earth to establish His kingdom. The Body of Christ has no place in that kingdom.

No where in Paul's Epistles do we find that the believer, in this dispensation of grace, will inherit a kingdom here upon the earth. He only speaks of our "heavenly hope."

Trevor continues:

BigD responds:
You are taking verse 16 completely our of its context. There is no earthly kingdom in it contents. It is the promise of the SPIRIT that is promised, not land (earthly kingdom).

Galatians 2:13 "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14   That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
15   Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
16   Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

To get the proper context of verse 16, I am going to copy from the commentary of "GALATIONS, Based Upon the Greek New Testament" by Ernest R. Campbell. I am going to delete the words written in the Greek language, and () will indicate where I deleted those words.)

16 "The promises were spoken to abraham and his seed. He did not say, And to seeds, as to many, but as to one, And to your seed, which is Christ."

"Some of the promises that were given to Abraham were: (1) that a special and with specifically defined borders would be given to him (cf. Gen. 15. 18-20); (2) that his offspring would become a great nation (cf. Gen.13:16); and (3) that in him all the nations of the earth would be blessed (cf. Gen 12:1-3). These promises were specifically spoken to Abraham and his seed; and Paul emphasizes the fact that the word translated "seed" () is in the singular, and it refers to Christ. As the seed, Christ is the epitome and pinnacle of the promises made to Abraham.

Paul's main issue in this verse is to make very clear those to whom the promises were not spoken and the One to whom the promises were spoken. God did not say "to seeds" (), as "to many" (), which more literally means on the basis of many. This means that the basis or reason for giving the promises was not the many, but it was on the basis of the One ().

Paul is making a sharp distinction between Abraham's seed according to the flesh and Abraham's seed according to the promise. In making the promise God said to Abraham, "And to your seed" (), which refers to Abraham's particular seed to whom the promise was given, which seed Paul asserts is Christ. Paul's identification of Christ as the seed is very significant, for the duration of the Law was until Christ, the seed, might come, and there is no basis for extending the Law beyond this date!.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Much and Love The Lord!

AMEN BigD!

I give thanks that I'm not waiting for the Millennial Kingdom. I have Jesus Christ in my heart right now, and I can worship HIM any time I wish.

Thanks Brother.

Love In Christ,
Tom

"For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.  
  66:23   And it shall come to pass, [that] from one new moon to another, and from [one sabbath to another], shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD", (Isaiah 66:22,23).  

BEP:
You are so right. We do not have to wait for the Millennial Kingdom to receive our blessings.  We can take comfort in Ephesians 1:3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:"

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

Howdy BigD,

Greetings again. Despite the Scriptures that you quote BigD, I still have difficulty with the concept that there will be some in the "earthly kingdom", while others will be in heaven. Repeating your statement from your original post:
BigD wrote: BigD wrote:  Ephesians 2:4-6 (KJV): "4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:"  
This does not directly state that when we die or when Christ returns we will be taken into Heaven. To me this is Paul's method of teaching us that we should think and act as if we were seated in the presence of God and Christ in Heaven. It does not say we are literally there, because we are still literally here. Similar encouragement and thoughts are given in:
 Colossians 3:1-4 (KJV): "1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. 2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory."
Our belief, repentance, baptism is likened to the resurrection of Christ. The above passage also talks of our need to centre our thoughts and feelings on Christ, and it also speaks of the appearance of Christ, but it does not state that after he appears that we then go to Heaven.

BigD quoted and wrote:  2 Corinthians 5:1-4 (KJV): "1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
This could also be explained by Colossians 3:3-4, that our "life is hid with Christ in God", and "when Christ, who is our life, shall appear", then "mortality" will "be swallowed up of life". This again speaks of Christ's second coming.

BigD quoted: Looking at the next verse we have a similar teaching to Colossians 3 and 2 Corinthians 5:
 Philippians 3:21 (KJV): "Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself."  

BigD quoted and wrote: Again 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 is similar to the previous quotations, that Christ will return and raise the dead and change their bodies into glorious immortal bodies. Briefly, I believe that the terms "the clouds" and "the air" are figurative language, and it does not use "heaven" in the sense of being directly in Heaven, in the presence of God. Again, you seem to be teaching that there are two kingdoms, the earthly kingdom and the heavenly kingdom, or "heavenly hope", the same as in your original post.

Concerning Galatians 3:16, BigD wrote: Paul in Galatians 3:16 quotes directly from the land promise in Genesis 13:14-15. You seem to read "the promise of the Spirit" as saying the promise that consists of the Spirit (kingdom). There is some possible ambiguity when the preposition "of" is used. If it said "the promise of God", we would most probably accept the promise that God gave, and this is how I read "the promise of the Spirit". I read this as the same as the promise(s) that was (were) given to Abraham by God, eg
 Galatians 3:16-18,26-29 (KJV): "16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. 18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."
The whole flow of this passage is the promise(s) to Abraham. Those that believe and are baptized into Christ have put on Christ. They are thus part of the body of Christ and will inherit the land for ever as promised to Abraham and Christ in Genesis 13:14-15. This will occur when Christ returns and raises the dead and gives them immortality. The last verse, v29 is clearly speaking of the body of Christ becoming heirs to the promises made to Abraham, and as your citation from the article states, these promises included the land promise of Genesis 13:14-15, further defined in Genesis 15:18-20.

Kind regards
Trevor

Rev 20:6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign   with him a thousand years.

Every saint that has died in the lord (Body of Christ) will be resurrected and reign with Christ a thousand years. More study is needed about this... thats for sure. These will also not do any animal sacrafices or keep any ordainances ...because they will be glorified and become as the angels of heaven...and rule the earth with Christ until God makes a new heaven and new earth...then we will be in eternity and eat of the tree...we have a long way to go to get to that tree...but by the grace of God we will.

This takes study because the saints who are raptured also come back with Christ to rule in this kingdom.

And one more thing, the kingdom that Christ preached is in you... it is the mystery of the Kingdom that Jesus was talking about... Christ in you the hope of glory. Then cometh the end when this unseen kingdom will be delivered up to God...but will return with Christ at his coming.

God bless Brothers and sisters

TrevorL posted


BigD wrote:
 

BigD wrote:
 

TrevorL responded:]/b]

BigD responds:
First of all, I am not literally already in heaven because I am still alive on this earth. I did not say that I was physically there. However, once I have put my faith and trust in the Cross work of Christ for my salvation, I am now made alive (quickened) and became a member of the Body of Christ, of His flesh and of His bones (Eph. 5:30), and God already sees me as seated with Christ in the heavenlies. That is my position "in Christ."


TrevorL continues:

BigD replies:
Trevor, as a member of the Body of Christ, I am already made alive in Christ, and postionally seated with Christ in the heavenlies. Therefore, I should only be concerning myself about heavenly things and not on things on this earth. These earthly things are only temporal. My heavenly blessings are permanent. I will receive them when I am raptured to heaven.

That is what Colossians 3:1-4 is all about. It has nothing to do with repentance and baptism.

BigD quoted and wrote:


Trevor responded:

BigD responds:
Just as I have been "crucified with Christ" (Eph.2:20), I also been "risen with Christ." Again, this cannot be taken literally because I am still here. However, this mortal body will die
, or be raptured, and then I will meet the Lord in the air, at the rapture, and ever be with the Lord in heaven.

BigD quoted:


TrevorL responded:
Looking at the next verse we have a similar teaching to Colossians 3 and 2 Corinthians 5:
 Philippians 3:21 (KJV): "Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself."  
BigD replies:
Nowhere in the promises to the earthly kingdom saints do we find that there bodies will be "fashioned like unto his glorious body." Yes, they will be raised from the dead and their imfirmities removed, but their appearance will not be altered much.

2Cor5 does not state anything about how our bodies will appear. However, it says that we believer will have a home "eternal in the heavens."

BigD quoted and wrote:


Trevor responded:

BigD responds:
"the clouds" and "the air" are figurative language of what? I understand them to be literal because of the above passages that have already been quoted that says that our home/citizenship is in heaven.

Another proof text to show that we do not inherit an earthly kingdom is found in 2Cor5:20. "Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us;..."

As you know, an ambassador is one that represents his homeland in a far off country. Well, my home is heaven, and as a believer, I am representing my home government (heavenly government) in a foreign land - earth. At the rapture, I will be recalled to "ever be with the Lord."

Concerning Galatians 3:16,
Trevor, I will respond to this a little later being I have some other things to do right now, and it might get lengthy.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

Concerning Gal 3:16 BigD wrote

TrevorL responded:

BigD replies:
Nowhere in Galatians 3:16 do I see Paul quoting directly from the land promises in Genesis 13:14-15. You are somehow reading that into it, or it was omitted from my KJV of the Bible. I am not denying that Abram was not given a land promise, I am saying that the land promises are not the subject in all of Galatians 3. It has to do with the gift of the Spirit and the Law.

It appears that the covenant spoken of in Gal 3:17 is "the law." "And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, it is no more of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise."

Trevor, it appears that you are making members of the Body of Christ, the Church for today, spiritual Jews. WE ARE NOT SPIRITUAL JEWS.

For the Jews to inherit the kingdom here upon the earth, they had to do the deed/works of the Law by Faith. The Law will be in effect during the kingdom reign of Christ. Also, the law will have been written upon their hearts ( see Jer 31:31-34).

Today the Body of Christ is not under the Law. The body of Christ is made up of  believing "set aside" Jew and Gentiles." we are "the one new man" of Ephesians 2:15, and have a heavenly hope.

Prior to the setting aside of Israel, for a Gentile to serve the true and living God, that Gentile had to become a Jew (proselyte) and place themselves under the Civil, Moral and Ceremonial Laws of Moses. That is not in effect today in this dispensation of grace. There is no longer any distinction between the Jew and Gentile. We are all on equal footing.

Believer today are not under the Law. However, it appears that  by your beliefs, all believer today will go into a kingdom here upon the earth. That would put them back under the Law.

Back in Galatians 2:9, the 12 disciples agreed to stay with the Jewish kingdom saints. In the kingdom, when established here on earth, there will be 12 disciples sitting on 12 thrones juding the 12 tribes of Israel. In order for judges to judge, there must be laws to judge by.

Paul is the Apostle to the Gentiles. We are not under the Law. If we go into an earthly kingom on earth, what would Paul's position be? Just asking, but would like to know your thought on this.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

Howdy BigD,

Greetings again. You seem to suggest that Paul will be in heaven, while Peter, James and John will be on earth.

Where will Jesus be?
Matthew 19:28 (KJV): "And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."
Luke 1:32-33 (KJV): "32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end."

Kind regards
Trevor

Trevor:
You have asked a good question, but you have not answered mine. I will repeat - "If we go into an earthly kingdom on earth, what would Paul's position be?" Also, I was looking forward to more response to my last postings.

As we know, Jesus is presently in heaven sitting at the right hand of God the Father. We also know that Paul was taken up to the third heaven (2Cor12:2) and saw thing that he was unable to discribe. In 5:6 Paul says: "whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:", and in vs 8 says: "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and be present with the Lord."

Paul is not looking for an earthly home.

Being Jesus is God, and God is omni-present, Is not possible for Jesus to be present with all the saints at the same time?

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

What kingdom was Paul and the church/ekklesia at Colosse translated into?

Colossians 1:13.  "Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:"

What kingdom does John write that he is in?

 Revelation 1:9.  "I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ."

They say they are in the kingdom of Jesus Christ. Are they members of the ekklesia, the Lord's body? Does this tell us the kingdom of Jesus Christ has been established?  Does it tell us the ekklesia, the Lord's body, and the kingdom of Christ are one and the same? Is the kingdom of Christ seperate from the kingdom of God?

ollie

Brother Ollie,

You asked an excellent question, one that causes tremendous confusion for hosts of people trying to study the Holy Bible.

The Kingdom of God and Christ are absolute reality. I belong to that Kingdom, and I am a member of the CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST. The Kingdom of God and Christ lives in my heart, and my citizenship is in Heaven with CHRIST.

Brother, there will be a physical 1,000 year rule of Christ on earth, and this should not be confused with the Kingdom of God or Christ. The Kingdom of God or Christ is already absolute reality. The 1,000 year rule of Christ on earth from the Throne of David is yet to come. This period of time is called the Millennial Kingdom, and the appointed time for it is after the Tribulation Period. This is a promise of God and is revealed in Bible prophecy. It will most definitely be fulfilled at God's appointed time.

There are a host of precious Scriptures that foretell of the Millennial Kingdom, but our Lord and Saviour is real RIGHT NOW! I don't count the Millennial Kingdom as part of my hope and joy in Christ, specifically because I already belong to Jesus and Jesus is in my heart. The reality of the Kingdom of God is absolute, RIGHT NOW! The reality of the Millennial Kingdom is yet to happen, but it will most certainly happen, just as the Holy Bible proclaims it.

Brother, I hope this helps some. This is certainly a topic that confuses many people. I would quickly proclaim that Jesus Christ is already the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords. This is already ABSOLUTE REALITY for all Christians. There will come a day when our Lord and Saviour will physically rule and reign over the earth from the Throne of David, and every knee will bow to HIM. That time has not arrived yet.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Todays believers keep all 10 commandments, therefore are not under the Law:
"Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus". (Revelation 14:12).

God's true saints, are Christians that understand, that to be under the Law means, to break any one of the 10 commandments, (Romans 3:19).

Howdy BigD,

Greetings again. BigD wrote: I apologise for not answering all your statements. Time is a factor, and I will start with this latest. My main aim was to establish that there is, and always has been only one gospel of the kingdom and name of Jesus Christ, and only one hope. I believe Paul was waiting for Christ to return to establish his 1000 year reign on earth, God's heavenly kingdom on earth, heavenly because the source of this kingdom is from heaven, not located in heaven.
BigD wrote:  2 Timothy 4:1 (KJV): "1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;"
2 Timothy 4:6-8 (KJV): "6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.:"  
Yes, here at the end of his life he is ready to depart and be with Jesus. Paul's next conscious moment will be in the presence of the Lord, when Christ returns. What he anticipates is the return of Jesus to judge him, and because Jesus is a righteous judge he is confident that Christ will reward him and welcome him into his kingdom together with all those that love his appearing.

The expression "new heaven and new earth" speaks of a progression from an existing heaven and earth to another, and this appears to be the numbering system, not three different heavens above, but I cannot prove this. The third heaven could be after the 1000 years, but I am not willing to demand that others agree. We have little information of this period when there is no sin and death and God is all in all, and I believe that Paul was given this special vison to sustain him in the abundance of his trials.

Starting on your earlier two replies. BigD wrote: We can be heavely minded now and in God's kingdom on earth. I do not believe in the rapture.
BigD wrote: No, it says we already have a house or building there, which speaks of the life of immortality that Christ will bring and will clothe us with when he returns, that is the resurrection, "that mortality may be swallowed up of life" v4.
BigD wrote: The clouds are a symbol of the ruling class over the earth during the 1000 years, they are the new heaven, while the mortal subjects of the kingdom will be the new earth. These clouds in the air of the kingdom reflect the light of the Sun of righteousness during the 1000 years, having been drawn out of the sea of nations during the previous eras of Jews and Gentiles.
BigD wrote: Yes, there is a larger context in Galatians 3, but the land promise is the one hope of all believers including Abraham and all his true descendants, concentred in Christ, and this includes Paul and the Gentile Galatians. Christ is "the seed" of Genesis 13:14-15 as he is the centre of all the promises to Abraham as Paul states in Galatians 3:16. Galatians 3:26-29 then shows that all the accepted believers will inherit the promise of the land, as well as all the Abrahamic promises. They will receive or fulfil the Edenic promises, all of the Abrahamic promises, the Davidic promises and will be immortal. There was never two ways to two different hopes of salvation. The whole book of Galatians is Paul's exposition that there is and has always ever been only one method of salvation, through faith not Law. Even when the Law was in force, only those of faith will be saved. Every revival in Israel was a faith revival, usually outside of the Law in some aspects, eg David and Hezekiah. To talk all the glorified believers coming under the Law in the Age to Come when they will be immortal and sinless is irrelevant and wrong. Isaiah 2:1-4 speaks of the law and word of God going forth to the nations, but this will proceed from these immortal believers and Christ.

Incidently hoping not to add too much, how do you read "heavenly" in the following concerning Abraham? Will Abraham receive the promise of the land?
 Hebrews 11:10, 16 (KJV): "10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. 16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city."  

Howdy Silver Surfer, I do not keep the Sabbath as it was kept under the Law of Moses, but believe that Jesus is the true rest Matthew 11:28-30, and the 1000 years is also another aspect of the true rest Hebrews 4.

Kind regards
Trevor

BigD responds:
Silver Surfer, I really don't understand just what you are trying to say.

Today, the believer is not under the Law but under Grace, and free from the Law. However, I will say this. When one studies Paul's epistles, he teaches all the precepts of the 10 commandments with the exception of the keeping of the Sabbath Day.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

 BigD wrote:
Trevor responded:

BigD replies:
Then you are saying "eternal in the heavens" is on earth.

All of God's creation is His kingdom. There is a kingdom literally "in heaven", "of heaven", (upon the earth), and a "kingdom under the earth." Members of the Body of Christ, the Church for today, will be literally "in heaven", while the kingdom saints will be in the kingdom "of heaven here upon the earth. Those in the kingdom '\"under the earth" will be in hell.

You are telling me what you believe, but you are not supporting it from Scripture.
 
When Christ comes to establish His kingdom upon the earth, I cannot find anywhere in the Bible that says that the kingdom saints will "rule and reign" with Christ upon the earth. The earthly kingdom saints will be judged by the 12 disciples who will be sitting on 12 thrones, judging the 12 tribes of Israel (Matt 19:28).

In 2Tim 2:11, 12 we read: "It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: If we suffer with him, we shall also reign with him..."  This surely won't be upon the earth.


BigD wrote:


Trevor responded:

BigD replies:
In 2 Timothy 4:1 I do believe that Paul is speaking here of the rapture that will occure at the end of this dispensation of grace. All believers (quick [living] or dead) will be caught up in the clouds to ever be with the Lord in heaven. There they will stand before the Judgment seat of Christ and be judged according to their works, and be rewarded accordingly (see 1Cor3:8-15). The believers will be in the kingdom "in heaven", where they will rule and reign with Christ. Paul says in 1Corinthians 6:3 "Know ye not that we shall judge angels?" That is a really good indication to me that we will be reigning with Christ "in heaven."

In 2 Timothey 4:6-8, Paul is looking forward to the rapture.

At the end of the 1,000 year reign of Christ upon the earth, there will be a new heaven and a new earth. The Body of Christ will reign with Christ in the heavenlies (Eph 2:6,7), and Israel and those redeemed under God's prophetic Program will reign with Christ from the New Jerusalem on the renovated earth (Rev 21:9-27).


BigD wrote earlier:


Trevor responded:

BigD replies:
You will find it in 1Cor15:51-53 and 1Thess4:14-18. I do hope that I find yourself in it when it happens.

 
BigD wrote:


Trevor responded:
No, it says we already have a house or building there, which speaks of the life of immortality that Christ will bring and will clothe us with when he returns, that is the resurrection, "that mortality may be swallowed up of life" v4.
BigD replies:
"For our conversation (citizenship NIV) is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ; Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subjue all things unto himself" (Philipians 3:20, 21).

Nowhere to I find that the earthly kingdom saints will have a body fashioned like unto His glorious body. However, the deceased shall be raised up from the dead.

 
BigD wrote:
 

Trevor responded:

BigD replies:
You are reading that into 1Thess 4:16. IT ISN'T THERE!!! How do you "symbolize "and the dead in Christ shall rise first."

BigD wrote:
  Yes, there is a larger context in Galatians 3, but the land promise is the one hope of all believers including Abraham and all his true descendants, concentred in Christ, and this includes Paul and the Gentile Galatians. Christ is "the seed" of Genesis 13:14-15 as he is the centre of all the promises to Abraham as Paul states in Galatians 3:16. Galatians 3:26-29 then shows that all the accepted believers will inherit the promise of the land, as well as all the Abrahamic promises. They will receive or fulfil the Edenic promises, all of the Abrahamic promises, the Davidic promises and will be immortal. There was never two ways to two different hopes of salvation. The whole book of Galatians is Paul's exposition that there is and has always ever been only one method of salvation, through faith not Law. Even when the Law was in force, only those of faith will be saved. Every revival in Israel was a faith revival, usually outside of the Law in some aspects, eg David and Hezekiah. To talk all the glorified believers coming under the Law in the Age to Come when they will be immortal and sinless is irrelevant and wrong. Isaiah 2:1-4 speaks of the law and word of God going forth to the nations, but this will proceed from these immortal believers and Christ.

Incidently hoping not to add too much, how do you read "heavenly" in the following concerning Abraham? Will Abraham receive the promise of the land?
 Hebrews 11:10, 16 (KJV): "10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. 16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city."
BigD replies:
Trevor, I will respond to this a little later today when I have time as it might get lengthly.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Much and Love The Lord!

BigD wrote:
  Yes, there is a larger context in Galatians 3, but the land promise is the one hope of all believers including Abraham and all his true descendants, concentred in Christ, and this includes Paul and the Gentile Galatians. Christ is "the seed" of Genesis 13:14-15 as he is the centre of all the promises to Abraham as Paul states in Galatians 3:16. Galatians 3:26-29 then shows that all the accepted believers will inherit the promise of the land, as well as all the Abrahamic promises. They will receive or fulfil the Edenic promises, all of the Abrahamic promises, the Davidic promises and will be immortal. There was never two ways to two different hopes of salvation. The whole book of Galatians is Paul's exposition that there is and has always ever been only one method of salvation, through faith not Law. Even when the Law was in force, only those of faith will be saved. Every revival in Israel was a faith revival, usually outside of the Law in some aspects, eg David and Hezekiah. To talk all the glorified believers coming under the Law in the Age to Come when they will be immortal and sinless is irrelevant and wrong. Isaiah 2:1-4 speaks of the law and word of God going forth to the nations, but this will proceed from these immortal believers and Christ.

Incidently hoping not to add too much, how do you read "heavenly" in the following concerning Abraham? Will Abraham receive the promise of the land?
 Hebrews 11:10, 16 (KJV): "10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. 16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city."
BigD replies:
Trevor, I do not believe that you an show me where Paul ever promised an earthly kingdom. You cannot read Paul's epistles into the promises to Abrahamn/Israel because what what revealed to Paul was future revelation after Israel was set aside. However, after the rapture of the Chruch, the Body of Christ, God will again deal with the nation of Israel and all the promises made to Abram/Abraham, Moses and David will be fulfilled. Israel will occupy all the land that was
promised to them.

 Hebrews 11:10 "For he (Abraham) looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God."

 Yes Abraham's promises were of land. Here I believe the author of Hebrews is saying that Abraham was looking for a heavenly city, the New Jerusalem. Also, I do believe that Abraham will be dwelling there.

Hebrews 11:16 "16 But now they desire a better country , that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city."

Abramham, while alive, was given a promise from heaven, and that is the "better country" (from God country) that Abraham was looking forward to. That is why he left his home; as God instructed him.

Salvation/justification has ALWAYS been by one means. That means is FAITH. The attributes of God have NEVER changed. He is the same today; as he was yesterday, and will be the same tomarrow. However, the manner in which God dealt with mankind has changed through out the time of human history. Throughtout human history for one to be saved/justified one had to believe God and do/not do what God required. After the fall, Adam and Ever, Cain and Able, Noah, Abram/Abraham knew nothing about keeping the Law. It was all future revelation. God gave Adam and Eve a conscience to know right from wrong. Cain and Able had to offer the sacrifice that God required. Noah had to believe God and build an ark. Abram had to believe God and count the stars in heaven. Abraham had to believe God and offer his son Isaac. They were all justified by their FAITH, and doing what God required.

For the Children of Israel to be saved/justified they had to do the deeds/works of the Civil, Moral and Ceremonial Laws of Moses by FAITH.

Do believers, members of the Body of Christ, today have to keep the Civil, Moral and Ceremonial Laws of Moses by FAITH?  NO!! All we need to do is put our FAITH and trust in the Cross work (death burial and resurrection) of Christ for their salvation/justification. NO WORKS REQUIRED![/b}

From the above, you should be able to see that the instructions in righteousness for the children of Israel were given by God to Moses through believing and doing the deed/works of the Law by FAITH. The instructions in righteousness for members of the Body of Christ were given by God to the Apostle Paul through the preaching of "the gospel of the grace of God," through FAITH alone.

Still the attributes of God have never changed, but the manner in which God deals with us today has changed.

Hope this is helpful.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

Ah, but the 7th day Sabbath commandment is not in the Law of Moses.

It is the 4th commandment, that God himself wrote out, with his very own finger, (Exodus 20:8-11......31:18).


The sabbaths that were in the Law of Moses, were the ceremonial sabbaths, such as the Passover....the Feasts of Trumpets...the Feasts of Unleaven Bread, etc...etc., which were abolished, at the cross of Jesus.

Silver Surfer,

You now have over 100 posts, and you have used nearly all of those posts to say the same thing over and over again. Your one and only note that you play is off-key and is no more true at post 100 than it was in post 1. I think that you play this one note because you are brain-washed with Ellen G. White doctrine, but nobody else is even listening to your one note. Your one sour note that you play is being heard only by you.

You have been given sound doctrine, but you ignored it. You need to learn about Jesus, what HE did, why HE did it, and what changed because of HIS perfect sacrifice on the Cross for us.

Born Again believers with Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Saviour rest in HIM 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Jesus Christ is our Sabbath, we live in HIM, and HE lives in us. We don't need an appointment to worship HIM or pray. Our fellowship with JESUS is NOT 1 hour or 1 day each week. Jesus Christ is LORD over all days and all hours. HE is LORD over HIS children every second of every day.

Learn about JESUS. Only JESUS can set you free from the curse of sin and death. You will remain in misery until you allow JESUS to set you free.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Howdy Silver Surfer,

Greetings again. Silver Surfer wrote: I am not sure that I want to get into a full ranging discussion on the Sabbath. I believe the need to keep the Commandments. Concerning the sabbath not being part of the Law given to Moses and hence to Israel, consider all of 2 Corinthians 3, but especially:
 2 Corinthians 3:7 (KJV): "But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
John 1:14,17 (KJV): "14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. 17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ."

But rather than getting into the full subject of the sabbath, briefly expanding on the two aspects mentioned previously,  "Jesus is the true rest Matthew 11:28-30, and the 1000 years is also another aspect of the true rest Hebrews 4." The Book of  Hebrews is addressed to believing Jews, and many of these were in Jerusalem and Judea, where the Law and the Temple were the centre of worship. The writer is seeking to refocus their minds on Christ and make them realise that the Law and it's environment was soon to be removed, and if they did not hold fast to Christ they were in danger of drifting away, and being engulfed in the coming troubles.

Paul in Hebrews 4 teaches concerning the true rest in the following:
 Hebrews 4:1-11 (KJV): "1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. 3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. 5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. 6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: 7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. 8 For if Jesus (mg Joshua) had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remaineth therefore a rest (mg keeping of a Sabbath) to the people of God. 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.."  
There is a linking of all aspects of "the rest" or Sabbath, and at the end bringing out the lesson of "ceased from his own works" and also the future rest. This future rest is talking of the future kingdom of God, the subject matter of the "gospel preached" v2, and it is "a promise being left us of entering into his rest" v1. (We are not completely off subject after all).

This ceasing from our own works does have a future aspect, but this can be an every day experience now when we cease from our own works and rest in Christ.
 Matthew 11:28-30 (KJV): "28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."

Jesus is the true Sabbath.

Kind regards
Trevor

Howdy BigD,

Greetings again. I feel that we haved stated our differences, and it appears that we both have strong views based on our environments, our experience, our research, etc. Most probably it will take more than our discussion for us to come to a common view, but I have appreciated our discussion and your patience.
BigD wrote: Revelation 5:9-10 (KJV): "9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth."

BigD wrote: The 12 disciples suffered with Jesus and will reign with him. This proves that they will share the throne of David with Jesus.
 Matthew 19:28 (KJV): "And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Luke 1:32-33 (KJV): "32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end."
Revelation 3:21 (KJV): "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne."  

BigD wrote: 2 Corinthians 5:1-4 (KJV): "1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life."  
The whole theme of a "house" talks of God's house or temple, and 2 Samuel 7:12-16 speaks of this house and the whole of the promises to David and of Christ sitting on David's throne are interlinked with this. Christ is this temple or house. The believers are part of the body of Christ and the link between the temple and the body and resurrection of Christ is spelt out in John 2:19-22. 2 Corinthians 5 has it's own ideas and context, but has many parallels of thought with this theme of God's house.

BigD wrote: This was from an earlier post. You claim that Peter and John preached to the Jews and that Peter and John and these Jews will be in the earthly kingdom. Looking at the Book of  Hebrews, this is addressed to these believing Jews, and many of these were in Jerusalem and Judea, where the Law and the Temple were the centre of worship. How do you understand the following where the writer compares the trust they should have in Jesus with their present trust in Moses:
 Hebrews 3:1-2 (KJV): "1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; 2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house."

Concerning your other comments, I believe that there is only one means of salvation, and one outcome, not two as you state. Undoubtedly being under the Law was a different environment, but the outcome was the same - faith. Salvation is by an affectionate response in faith to the preaching of the gospel of the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, and this faith leads to baptism and living the crucified life.
 Acts 8:5,12 (KJV): "5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women."
Galatians 2:20 (KJV): "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."  

Kind regards
Trevor

And thus Satan has deceived the Christian world (2 Corinthians 11:14,15).
By making the Christian world disobey God, while they believe they obey God ?
The same scenerio played out with King Saul (1 Samuel, chapter 15). Saul disobey God, while thinking he worshipped God.....and as a result, God rejected King Saul forever.