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In light of current news surrounding Israel and the land disputes, I thought these would be interesting viewings.



How the land was divided by tribes.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v237/antsy/maptribesofisrael.gif)






Davids Israel

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v237/antsy/israel_davids_kingdom_shg.jpg)






In Jesus' time

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v237/antsy/maps-palestine-33AD.gif)






Proposal 1947 - 1950

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v237/antsy/map04.gif)






1967 - 1993

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v237/antsy/map22-1967.jpg)






2004

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v237/antsy/Israel-map.gif)


Close up of West bank

(http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/maps/we-map.gif)

The Israel-PLO Declaration of Principles on Interim Self-Government Arrangements (the DOP), signed in Washington on 13 September 1993, provided for a transitional period not exceeding five years of Palestinian interim self-government in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank. Under the DOP, Israel agreed to transfer certain powers and responsibilities to the Palestinian Authority, which includes the Palestinian Legislative Council elected in January 1996, as part of the interim self-governing arrangements in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. A transfer of powers and responsibilities for the Gaza Strip and Jericho took place pursuant to the Israel-PLO 4 May 1994 Cairo Agreement on the Gaza Strip and the Jericho Area and in additional areas of the West Bank pursuant to the Israel-PLO 28 September 1995 Interim Agreement, the Israel-PLO 15 January 1997 Protocol Concerning Redeployment in Hebron, the Israel-PLO 23 October 1998 Wye River Memorandum, and the 4 September 1999 Sharm el-Sheikh Agreement. The DOP provides that Israel will retain responsibility during the transitional period for external and internal security and for public order of settlements and Israeli citizens. Direct negotiations to determine the permanent status of Gaza and West Bank that began in September 1999 after a three-year hiatus, were derailed by a second intifadah that broke out in September 2000. The resulting widespread violence in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, Israel's military response, and instability within the Palestinian Authority continue to undermine progress toward a permanent agreement.


Grace and Peace!

Hmmm.....going by the previous info, looks like Oslo was only for 5 years, unless I am missing an addendum.

Grace and Peace

Gen 15:18

18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
KJV

Deut 11:24

24 Every place whereon the soles of your feet shall tread shall be yours: from the wilderness and Lebanon, from the river, the river Euphrates, even unto the uttermost sea shall your coast be.
KJV

Josh 21:43-45

43 And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.

44 And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.

45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.
KJV

Gen 13:15  For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.

 ;)


Eze 36:16  Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Eze 36:17  Son of man, when the house of Israel dwelt in their own land, they defiled it by their own way and by their doings: their way was before me as the uncleanness of a removed woman.
Eze 36:18  Wherefore I poured my fury upon them for the blood that they had shed upon the land, and for their idols wherewith they had polluted it:
Eze 36:19  And I scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them.
Eze 36:20  And when they entered unto the heathen, whither they went, they profaned my holy name, when they said to them, These are the people of the LORD, and are gone forth out of his land.
Eze 36:21  But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went.
Eze 36:22  Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
Eze 36:23  And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
Eze 36:24  For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.



Eze 36:25  Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Eze 36:26  A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27  And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Eze 36:28  And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.




I know you disagree Reba, but the maps are pretty arent they?   :D

Grace and Peace!

I dont call maps pretty but i sure like em, I read cook books and maps for entertainment.. :P Yes i am admitting i am weird.

Do you have a map of the area of land God promised to Abe? (Gen 15:18)Years ago i saw an " overlay?" i think it is called transparencies …?  I find the history of the land interesting.

LOL at least you can admit it.  I'm in denial  :P  :D


If you like bible maps check these out.   http://www.bible.ca/maps/    and scroll down a bit.

The very first one is Abraham's Journey 2000 BC.   Very interesting maps.

Grace and Peace!

The maps are great. I have a lot of the old Biblical maps but not these. Thanks.

I was in de Nile once and it was real wet.  ;D

 yikes  i  am  sure rounded  by

DORKS !    

Thank you. That is one of the nicer things I have been called. ;)

LOL @ Pastor and Reba ;D

I'm ready!!!!!
(http://www.john812.com/img/teachme.gif)

hmmmm............

ROFL...very nice...I like it!

Trust me, when the Lord returns, you wont need any flying lessons brother.   You're gonna go up like cork in fresh water...lol

Hi all, this is my frist time here and frist post too.

The link to this map said...Where Books of the Bible were Written (http://www.biblestudy.org/maps/bkbiblfl.html), but the title says Books of the Bible In the Lands of the Bible.


Also another map of Abraham's Journey (http://www.biblestudy.org/maps/abrajrfl.html) looks nice ;).

at_the_Cross, Welcome to CU!   :)

The maps are awesome!   I liked them so much, I'm going to link them here.



(http://www.biblestudy.org/maps/bkbiblfl.jpg)

(http://www.biblestudy.org/maps/abrajrfl.jpg)


Thanks!!!!

Grace and Peace!

Looking at these maps i have to ask .....


Do the Jews have all the land promised to Abe?

The answer to that Reba is NO, they do not.  But it aint over just yet.   They will have all the land that God promised them at some point.   One possibility I have been looking at through out the minor prophets, indicates various wars with Syria, Lebanon and Jordon being made desolate by Israel.   There are a few verses that talk about the Jews moving into these areas as a result....which would indeed be a larger portion of Canaan.   I'm not sure how God will do it, but it will happen, because God says they will have it all.

Grace and Peace!

Have they ever had the land after Abe?

They have a good chunk of it now I believe.

The text on each segment is rather small, but it put a visual on the actual story with Abe as it goes along.

(http://www.israelmybeloved.com/land/pics/map_abes_journey_map.jpg)


The current borders of Israel is indeed part (though only partial) of the original deal.   Those borders are going to expand at some point.  I believe that will likely be during or after the Tribulation.

Grace and Peace!

Tim you did not answer the question  >:(    :P


 ;D  Here is one place the Word talks about the land...

Josh 21:43-45

43 And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.

44 And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.
45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.
KJV

Uhh...call me silly, I guess I don't understand your question?  


Lest I misunderstand you again... :P  ;D your point here is?  That it came to pass and is finished?

 Tim your answer was  "They have a good chunk of it now I believe."


 Scripture plainly says.... Josh 21:43-45

43 And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
44 And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.
45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.
KJV


Tim said ..."Lest I misunderstand you again...    your point here is?  That it came to pass and is finished? "  

My answer to your question/statment is.... My point was posting ,some, of what the scripture has to say about the land.   God said  "all came to pass"  So that is fact.

Looking at yoru question..  " and is finished?" I do not know, and our ideas on the subject differ...The Jews missed Jesus because they did not understand or accept the King as He was/is. They were wanting and looking for some one to save them from Rome. He did and they still dont see it....

Reba,

I know that our views differ on this.   Rather than hash out points about it, I would simply encourage you to read Ezekiel 36, and 37.    Also worth looking into is Romans 11.   I had rather the word lead you to a conclusion regarding this, over me trying to convince you of my view of it.   :)

Grace and Peace!

Tim,

OK   :( Tim I am sorry you do not wish to discuss the topic with me. I lived looking to Israel for most of my life so i know where you are coming from.  I have found many a poster to say the same thing to me, implying i need to read scripture. I just read through Ezekiel and Romans last month.  Reading the Word is what has brought me to the understanding i hold at this time. Keep sharing the Gospel Tim,  blessings....

Reba....lol  I don't have any problem discussing it with you!   :P   I also was not implying that you need scriptural guidance.     What I was trying to say is, I don't want you to feel as if I am trying to force my view of these things on you.  Understand?   The word is a far better teacher than I.....I too am looking into these things in great detail as of late.  

Since you say you have already looked into these things, I would definitely be interested in hearing what you believe Ezekiel 36 and 37 refer to if they don't refer to Israel as a nation being restored both physically and spiritually.

Grace and Peace!

Of course I agree with this completely.  


Absolutely...there is no questions from me here.  I would however make clear that the promise to Abram was an everlasting promise.   That too is fact.  Psa 105:10 and 11


Yes they missed Jesus and still do not acknowledge Him.  This is where Ezekiel applies.

Eze 36:18  Wherefore I poured my fury upon them for the blood that they had shed upon the land, and for their idols wherewith they had polluted it:

Was fury ever poured out on Israel due to blood they had shed?  

Eze 36:19  And I scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them.
Eze 36:20  And when they entered unto the heathen, whither they went, they profaned my holy name, when they said to them, These are the people of the LORD, and are gone forth out of his land.


And this one...When were the Jews removed from their land in History and scattered among the nations?.  


Eze 36:21  But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went.


His pity is not on them, its for his Holy names sake.  Because they have profaned His name among the heathens.  How did they do profane His name?  Verse 20 above tells us how.


Eze 36:22  Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.


Not for their sake, but His Holy names Sake.


Eze 36:23  And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
Eze 36:24  For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.


Can you name another time in history where Israel was scattered through out the nations of the world, and then return to their land as these passages declared would happen?   Granted, they still have not acknowledged the Lord, but why would God declare it if He wont do it?  Chapter 37, 38 and 39 gives a detailed explanation of how that will take place.

I am currious to hear what you think this passage means.  


Grace and Peace!

Tim thank you for making yourself clear  :) hope you have a wonderfull Thanksgiving....  

I have tried to group the Q&A by color


 Eze 36:18  Wherefore I poured my fury upon them for the blood that they had shed upon the land, and for their idols wherewith they had polluted it:

Was fury ever poured out on Israel due to blood they had shed?

Matt 23:35-36

35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
KJV
 
 I understand Christ to be speaking of the near future 70 AD When the way of life known to the Jews of that day and when the  generation that had the blood of Christ on their hands  was destroyed.

Eze 36:19  And I scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them.
Eze 36:20  And when they entered unto the heathen, whither they went, they profaned my holy name, when they said to them, These are the people of the LORD, and are gone forth out of his land.


And this one...When were the Jews removed from their land in History and scattered among the nations?.  

The question is how many times were they scattered  goodness most of the OT is of their goings and returnings. They did not truly hold the land at the time of Christ the nation was is slaved to Rome.


Eze 36:23  And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
Eze 36:24  For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

Eph 2:11-12

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
KJV

Eph 2:19-22

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
KJV

Heb 11:16

16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
KJV


 Can you name another time in history where Israel was scattered through out the nations of the world, and then return to their land as these passages declared would happen?  Granted, they still have not acknowledged the Lord, but why would God declare it if He wont do it?  Chapter 37, 38 and 39 gives a detailed explanation of how that will take place.




Seems to me the Jews were often scattered… You state “and then return to their land as these passages declared would happen?” Again I say they do not hold the land given to Abe. Maybe  this  will explain what I am saying….. Your Grandpa wills you his 4000 acre farm… you head off to California to claim this farm, when you get here the land you have is 40 acres do you have your inheritance? The simple answer is no. You don’t hold the land as the will declared.


Jer 40:12

12 Even all the Jews returned out of all places whither they were driven, and came to the land of Judah, to Gedaliah, unto Mizpah, and gathered wine and summer fruits very much.
KJV
 


 Heb 12:22-23

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
KJV

 

Agreed!



Well let me narrow it down a bit.  From what is foretold in Eze, can I assume we both agree that IT is refering to what took place in 70 AD?    I think we are on the same page here, but I want to be sure before I move ahead.

Grace and Peace!

Have they ever had the land God promised?

From what is foretold in Eze, can I assume we both agree that IT is refering to what took place in 70 AD?    I think we are on the same page here, but I want to be sure before I move ahead.

 :)

Did God ever bless all the families of the earth through Abram and the promise?

Let me ask this way do the scriptures tell us wither or not they ever had all the land promised?

The first description of the Promised Land is made in Genesis 15:18-21, as “this land, from the river of Egypt, to the great river, the Euphrates—the land of the Kenites, Kenizzites, Hittites, Perizzites, Rephaites, Amorites, Canaanites, Girgagotcha2es and Jebusites.”  It is a piece of property that God often referred to as the “land of Canaan,” and its dimensions are best depicted in Num 34:1-12
Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, “Command the children of Israel, and say to them: ‘When you come into the land of Canaan, this is the land that shall fall to you as an inheritance-the land of Canaan to its boundaries.  Your southern border shall be from the Wilderness of Zin along the border of Edom; then your southern border shall extend eastward to the end of the Salt Sea; your border shall turn from the southern side of the Ascent of Akrabbim, continue to Zin, and be on the south of Kadesh Barnea; then it shall go on to Hazar Addar, and continue to Azmon; the border shall turn from Azmon to the Brook of Egypt, and it shall end at the Sea.  As for the western border, you shall have the Great Sea for a border; this shall be your western border.  And this shall be your northern border: From the Great Sea you shall mark out your border line to Mount Hor; from Mount Hor you shall mark out your border to the entrance of Hamath; then the direction of the border shall be toward Zedad; the border shall proceed to Ziphron, and it shall end at Hazar Enan. This shall be your northern border.  You shall mark out your eastern border from Hazar Enan to Shepham; the border shall go down from Shepham to Riblah on the east side of Ain; the border shall go down and reach to the eastern side of the Sea of Chinnereth; the border shall go down along the Jordan, and it shall end at the Salt Sea. This shall be your land with its surrounding boundaries.’”

Today’s Israel is a land that borders the Mediterranean Sea from Egypt to Lebanon; encompassing 20,770 square kilometers, of which 440 square kilometers are water, an area slightly smaller than the State of New Jersey.  Its borders run a length of 1,017 km, including Egypt-266 km, Gaza Strip-51 km, Jordan-238 km, Lebanon-79 km, Syria-76 km, and the West Bank-307 km.  Its lowest point is the Dead Sea, 408 meters below sea level; and its highest point is Har Meron, 1,208 meters above sea level.  It presently has between six and seven million residents.

The Promised Land was again avowed to the descendants of Jacob (Israelis), not to the descendants of Esau (Palestinians).  Even though Esau was Isaac’s firstborn son, God selected Jacob as the son through whom the covenant blessings and promises would come.

Romans 9:10-13And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger."  As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."
 
Jeremiah 31:31-34; Zechariah 13:1; Isaiah 59:20, 21 and Ezekiel 39:25-29 depicts the final coming of the Messiah to earth to set up His kingdom in the Promised Land with His chosen people Israel.  Although today’s “replacement theology” would deny Jews as God’s chosen people, to be substituted by Christians, the New Testament does not support this position.  The New Testament recognizes three classes—Jews, Gentiles and Christians (Jewish and Gentile).  The day is coming when the nation Israel will repent by recognizing Jesus Christ as its Messiah Romans 12:25-27.  In that day God’s covenant blessings and promises to Abraham will be totally fulfilled.

Reba, you said you wanted to discuss this, however you refuse to answer a simple question I have asked twice now.  You keep ignoring it by asking questions of your own.   This is a reasonable question.   :)

In hopes of moving along, I will answer yours out of turn... 8)

Scripturally, Israel did indeed become a nation as God promised them and blessed the world through messiah.  Whether or not they ever owned every inch that God promised is not entirely clear to me.  One thing is certain....if they never did, they certainly will eventually, unless Gods word is faulty.  If they did, that does not release God from His eternal covenant and promise to them.   It will be as God said and promised.  

NOW.....

Do you or do you not believe that what Ezekiel foretold about Israel's desolation is refering to what took place in 70 AD?

Yes or No?

Ezekiel 36:18,19 are prophetic, but the cross references(Ezek. 36:18 are ch. 16:36,38; 23:37 and Ezek. 36:19 are ch. 7:3; 18:30; 39:24) are an explanation from Ezekiel after being called by God, why their in captivity/exile. The Babylonians attacked Judah three times over a 20 year period and took captives.

Has this ever happend?


Speaking to the House of Israel God says...

Eze 36:25  Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Eze 36:26  A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27  And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Grace and Peace!

Reba -

You asked if Israel ever had all the land that God promised them. I don't believe they did. Here are some scriptures in Judges:

Judges 1:21 But the sons of Benjamin did not drive out the Jebusites who lived in Jerusalem; so the Jebusites have lived with the sons of Benjamin in Jerusalem to this day.
 27 But Manasseh did not take possession of Beth-shean and its villages, or Taanach and its villages, or the inhabitants of Dor and its villages, or the inhabitants of Ibleam and its villages, or the inhabitants of Megiddo and its villages; so the Canaanites persisted in living in that land. 28 It came about when Israel became strong, that they put the Canaanites to forced labor, but they did not drive them out completely. 29 Ephraim did not drive out the Canaanites who were living in Gezer; so the Canaanites lived in Gezer among them. 30 Zebulun did not drive out the inhabitants of Kitron, or the inhabitants of Nahalol; so the Canaanites lived among them and became subject to forced labor. 31 Asher did not drive out the inhabitants of Acco, or the inhabitants of Sidon, or of Ahlab, or of Achzib, or of Helbah, or of Aphik, or of Rehob. 32 So the Asherites lived among the Canaanites, the inhabitants of the land; for they did not drive them out. 33 Naphtali did not drive out the inhabitants of Beth-shemesh, or the inhabitants of Beth-anath, but lived among the Canaanites, the inhabitants of the land; and the inhabitants of Beth-shemesh and Beth-anath became forced labor for them. 34 Then the Amorites forced the sons of Dan into the hill country, for they did not allow them to come down to the valley; 35 yet the Amorites persisted in living in Mount Heres, in Aijalon and in Shaalbim; but when the power of the house of Joseph grew strong, they became forced labor. 36 The border of the Amorites ran from the ascent of Akrabbim, from Sela and upward.

Judges 2:20 So the anger of the LORD burned against Israel, and He said, "Because this nation has transgressed My covenant which I commanded their fathers and has not listened to My voice, 21 I also will no longer drive out before them any of the nations which Joshua left when he died, 22 in order to test Israel by them, whether they will keep the way of the LORD to walk in it as their fathers did, or not." 23 So the LORD allowed those nations to remain, not driving them out quickly; and He did not give them into the hand of Joshua. "


2Tim -

You asked:
Yes, He did. And you are living proof:

Gal. 3 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU."

Well, there's my 2 cents.

Take care,
Chesed

I think both Reba and Myself understand the answers to the questions we ask.  This is all posturing in order to make our points.

No since in beating around the bush here.... :D

Her end point is that Israel being a nation today has nothing to do with prophecy (I believe)....

My end point is that it does...

I have no problem agreeing to disagree.   :)    Our happiness does not come from proving anything, it comes from the Lord.  And we can all agree on that.   ;)

Grace and Peace!

Amen Tim

 I have just a minute  (busy time for the cook)  I looked in and found the posts to be many i will have to respond after the cooking is done :P

I saw the well stated answer to my question... thank you ...it really helps me to understand your posts...  

Have a wonderfull day  giving thanks unto the LORD

If the length of time its taking for you respond is any indication of how much cooking you are doing....I know who's house I want to visit on Thanksgiving is.    ;D

Second day and STILL cooking....my oh my....I almost smell the yummies from here  8)

coconutcream pie   no box mixes  ;D

cinnimin rolls from stratch ...

 corn bread stuffing....

rich nothing fancy mashed taters

and all the rest of the trimings

i find it sinfull to ask for the caleries to be removed but one can hope...

I cook much better than i spell



Blessings

As Mr BEP would say...."I gained weight from just reading the menu!"   ;D lol  

Sounds wonderful!

Thanks Chesed your input is welcomed Tim knew this was a loaded question form past post. Not letting you know this would be unfare...   here is a scripture answer to my question...
Josh 21:43-45

43 And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.

44 And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.

45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.
KJV

Sorry i missed this one .... Yup   the short answer is Jesus...

YES

Hope you had a great thanksgiving....got any leftovers?   :D

Thanks and yours? We are down to soup but soup.. guess i will make some biscuts.....

It was great!  I am growing tired of turkey sandwiches now though....lol   As much as I love them, theres only so many you can eat.

Bring on the Christmas ham  ;D

Prime rib...


Back to topic  i do believe i have answered your questions.. let me post a few scriptures and ask you how they figure into your thoughts.  

1 Cor 15:44-50

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
KJV

1 Peter 2:6-10

6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
KJV

Heb 12:22-24

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
KJV


Please Tim take into account as you respond all the scriptures which 'give' the blessing or inheritance to the younger brother...

Of course I believe all of these passages, and they fit perfectly with what I believe.   However, they do not ommit the parts that pertain to Israel, being seperate from the Church body of Christ, eventually being saved like we as a nation.

Rom 11:23  And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Rom 11:24  For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
Rom 11:25  For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26  And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27  For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Rom 11:28  As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Rom 11:29  For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.




Once again key verses from the Amplified version

 
Rom 11:26  And so all Israel will be saved. As it is written, The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will banish ungodliness from Jacob. [Isa. 59:20, 21.]
Rom 11:27  And this will be My covenant (My agreement) with them when I shall take away their sins. [Isa. 27:9; Jer. 31:33.]
Rom 11:28  From the point of view of the Gospel (good news), they [the Jews, at present] are enemies [of God], which is for your advantage and benefit. But from the point of view of God's choice (of election, of divine selection), they are still the beloved (dear to Him) for the sake of their forefathers.
Rom 11:29  For God's gifts and His call are irrevocable. [He never withdraws them when once they are given, and He does not change His mind about those to whom He gives His grace or to whom He sends His call.]

This is black and white stuff here.  The Jews (Israel) are going to be Saved as a nation.   I know this creates numerous problems from a preterist perspective, but this is not my view here, its Pauls!

I completely agree that these must accept Christ as their personal saviour.  I totally disagree that we the Church have replaced Israel, as replacement theology teaches.  There are simply too many references to Israel itself begin restored to just ignore them.  Rightly dividing the word, it is abundantly clear what Israel's future is.    :)

Grace and Peace!

Rom 11:26  And so all Israel will be saved. As it is written, The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will banish ungodliness from Jacob. [Isa. 59:20, 21.]
Rom 11:27  And this will be My covenant (My agreement) with them when I shall take away their sins. [Isa. 27:9; Jer. 31:33.]
Rom 11:28  From the point of view of the Gospel (good news), they [the Jews, at present] are enemies [of God], which is for your advantage and benefit. But from the point of view of God's choice (of election, of divine selection), they are still the beloved (dear to Him) for the sake of their forefathers.
Rom 11:29  For God's gifts and His call are irrevocable. [He never withdraws them when once they are given, and He does not change His mind about those to whom He gives His grace or to whom He sends His call.]


Black and white?  Ok what does all  Israel mean?

To me all Israel would be ALL Israel  correct? She asks her loaded question again....

To be black and white all must mean all and then any person who is naturally born of Jewish blood will be saved.. But wait  what of theose who are not Jewish by blood but Jewish via faith?  and how much Jewish blood make one a Jew ( Tim I use the term Jewish i do believe it can be some what interchanged with Israelie etc you understand that correct?)
So a person born in Israel is saved, saved by natural birth, the blood of his/her parents? What of the Jews in the USA?

Reba…lol

It's not really as complicated as you make it sound.   This does not mean ALL JEWS from all generations.  Paul had already elaborated in an earlier chapter that it would be a remnant of the children of Israel that was to be saved.

Rom 9:27  Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

Quoting from Isa 10

Isa 10:21  The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God.
Isa 10:22  For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness.


And now in chapter 11 he says…

Rom 11:25  For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26  And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:


He is speaking of an ultimate future ingathering of the NATION of Israel.  For example…

If the nation of Israel turned to Christ for salvation today, that would truly be a remnant of Jews throughout history wouldn’t it?   But, Could one also not say that “ALL Israel was saved”, if the whole nation turned to Christ  tomorrow?   Yes!  

As for the blood type, quantity, quality, local, yadda yadda…this is silly talk.  If God is able to know the very thoughts of men, surely He is able to know who, when, and how it will take place.   The text gives no such explaination.   It just says all of Israel.   If the word of God says it will happen, it will happen regardless of how impractical we may think it is.   The main point was, that Israel (the nation, albeit a remnant) shall be saved because “they are beloved for the fathers' sakes” v-28.     That part is as black and white as it gets, at least to me it is.

Again, I am aware that your study of scripture leads you to believe differently than me.   No doubt this very Issue has a big bearing on how we each view endtime events.   Either way, we both agree firmly that Christ is the saviour of the world, and He is the only way to the Father.  

Grace and Peace!

Tim,

I agree it is silly … but the question also shows the verses are not so black and white…  ;)

Tim I do appreciate your dialog on the topic!  The Amplified Bible is a huge reason for my understanding i got a smile  :-Xwhen you used it. :)

I will try and put to words my understanding of the above verses, and add a few more.

All of Israel will be saved how? by the Deliverer Jesus Christ. And all who are saved are saved via His blood there is no other salvation. This happened at the Cross. All who are saved are Israel. Just as when the ‘children’ left Egypt non Jews went also and were counted as the ‘children’

Ex 12:38

38 And a mixed multitude went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, even very much cattle.
KJV

I do not believe the church replaces the Jews or Israel


Ex 19:5-6

5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
KJV

1 Peter 2:9

9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
KJV

 I believe the church or Christians are a continuation of His people.


Bondwoman = Bondage under Gods law

Freewoman= Freedom in Christ

Gal 4:22-31

22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
KJV

Heb 12:22

22 But ye are come  ( done deal)  unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
KJV


Eph 2:12-18

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
KJV




Gal 3:27-29

27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
KJV


Are some Christians less the others or are all who the blood of Jesus Christ saved heirs according to the promise.  Verse 29 is black and white.

 Is it the land that makes a peoples a nation?

I say no.

Reba, I agree with you here.  We are heirs of the promise, and it must happen through Christ, and we are a spiritual nation!   I do not agree that the Church has replaced Israel.  Paul clearly points out that we were grafted onto the Root, while Israel, the natural branches were broken off due to unbelief.   These were blinded so that WE could be grafted in and become heirs.  

Rom 11:11  I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Why would God want to provoke the Jews to jealousy?   So He could revel in their grief?   God wants the Jews to receive their messiah...just like He wanted the gentiles to receive Him.    This is all part of Gods Plan for mankind in total.

Rom 11:1  I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2  God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.

This is not talking about the Church....its talking about Abrams litteral seed!   Yes a remnant, but this is Gods own doing because of His infinite wisdom and desire for the litteral seed to also accept His Son.  


So what do we make of what Paul says in 11?   What do we make of Eze 36, 37?   What do we make of Revelation 7?  Just to name a few.  A remnant of Israel is going to come to Christ in the end.    This is the second most talked about thing in prophecy next to messiahs first and second coming.   This is why its short of miraculous that Israel while not fully restored physically or spiritually seems to dominate world news today.   The age of Grace is growing short, and the 70th week is going to be fulfilled on this tiny nation and the world.  

Are Jews returning to the land from every nation?
Is Israel a cup of trembling to those who burdon themselves with her?
Has Joe 3:2 ever happened? and if so how does this apply to the Church?
What about Eze 38 and 39, talking about the Church or Israel?

I'm not trying to flood you with questions Reba...these are retorical questions that you must answer for yourself.   I think we are actually in agreement on much, we just differ on the salvation of litteral Israel which to me is very black and white in scripture.   I don't believe our personal salvation is dependant on our interpretation of this.   I too enjoy talking about it, but I sense we are each beating a dead horse so to speak (no pun intended  :P  ;) )    

If I'm wrong, you can toss Manna pie in my face when we get to heaven and say...
I told you so.   (http://www.rr-bb.com/images/smilies/caked.gif)    

Ok Tim,
 :( after this note i will drop the topic on this thread.

 I DO NOT believe the church to be a replacement of Israel.

Manna ? sheesh  home made coconut cream  with real whipped cream not kool whip :P

And questions to you Tim:

How come God looses count  1 through 69 then a big gap to 70?

Whatever is meant by  'shortly' and 'at hand'. (Rev.1 verses 1&3) ?

Could it be that as Christs words in Matt were a warrning to 'that ' generation? Revelation is the more detailed picture of what was to come to that generation (70 ad)

Gods Word , apart from being His Word, is a great book look how alive it is after all these years the different avenues a student can see.

Off to the glue factory with the horses....

Because the mystery of the Church lies there-in.  ;)  Which is sort of what we have been discussing (in a round about way).   History simply does not support the events named in Revelation, which details the events of the 70th week.   Either way you slice it, theres still a gap, because Christ certainly has not returned yet.


I can only equate it to the same "shortly" mentioned at the end of the book

Rev 22:6  And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.

and

Rev 22:20  He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.


Still waiting for this without question, yet Christ says they are faithful and true sayings.   I would say trust His use of these words, not mine.


(edit to add...I do believe some of Matt 24 is in reference to 70 AD...just wanted to clarify)

There are many who share this view Reba.   I certainly do not, but we have already been around the issues on this many times in past discussions.   If you can point out to me where Christ returned in 70 AD it would make alot more sense.   But its simply not recorded History, and there is no evidence to support He has returned or that we have been Changed from imortality....if we are, then someones holding out on me...lol.   These events are future still, because they include the Lords second return.  

Grace and Peace!