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Can God be worshiped with lies?

John 4:23 “But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24  God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.”

Jesus said that God MUST be worshiped in Spirit and TRUTH. Yet, every year millions of professing Christians partake in the practices of a religious lie and claim they are worshiping God by doing so. The lie they practice is christmass. How many know that the term “christmas” is a  religious lie of the worse kind? It is a Roman Catholic term meaning the mass of their christ. God’s Word says that the true Christ was sacrificed one time for us never to be repeated again, which make the mass a lie. How then can God be worshiped base on this religious lie?

Have any here considered what you are saying when you tell someone to have a “merry christmas”? The mass is a tool used by Satan to deceive people from the true Christ therefore used by him in blinding people to the true gospel. Millions of souls are in hell now because their faith was in the false christ of the mass rather than the true Christ of the Bible. So when one wishes another a “merry christmas” in reality it is a very sad an horrible thing to do.

Pilgrim

I ahve Christain friends who think I am a nut because I buried our christmas tree in the cement floor we were laying we I discovered it's pagan beginings, In their opinion christmas tree's do hurt anyone?????
I'll do without mine thank you God is the centre of ourlives

As Brother Love would say.........

2 Thumbs Up!! Sister :)

Amen!

I wonder if there are any of us that are not in some kind of deception or another  :-X

If God's grace was dependent on man's actions then we would all be in severe trouble  ::)

I do not believe that people who say "Merry Christmas" are destined to hell  8)  

Shalom, Nana

Brothers and Sisters,

Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, and Sunday are all names with Pagan roots, each an an honor to a god with a little "g", and that means nothing.

Every day belongs to the LORD. As an individual, I think that the Christmas issue is a silly issue to divide Christians. Christmas is just like every other day, as it can be used to worship Jesus, and it is by most Christians. I celebrate the birth of Jesus every day, and I give thanks for HIS perfect sacrifice on the Cross every day.

I will have Christmas in my family, and I will have absolutely nothing to feel any guilt about when the day is over. We will worship and praise God that day, and so will my church. In fact, my church will have special Christmas Services and special New Year Services. We will have a good time in the LORD.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Lotz of good points here.

I feel very hollow saying "Merry Christmas", or even singing the tradional carols (like "tis the season", or "Jingle Bells"...).

It's good to be happy, and merry.


What I don't like about any holidays, like Jesus and the sabbath, is that the sabbath(ie. holidays), were made for man, not the other way around.

If you notice, because we participate in a pagan society generally(mostly by virtue of our employment), we are subject to their calendar.

Their calendar carries all the holidays.

We did not so learn Christ!

See, that's my feeling about it.

I feel attacked, or under attack, when calendar holidays impose their time table on my "walking in the spirit".  

And Paul in Galatians carries a similar theme, I think.

But I've learned to take the pagan calendar in stride.  I put a few Christmas decorations.  Just some color.  And a few lights.

As Christians, we are to do all as unto the Lord.

I'm not sure an endorsement or a prohibition can be carried strictly.

But walking in the Spirit seems separate from much of it.

Symphony,

You also have some good points.  I think that when you discover the roots of some of the things that are practiced in Christianity, it becomes difficult to continue to do them - for some people.

Not all Christians are aware of these things, and many who are, decide not to apply it to their lives.

For myself, walking in His love means a balance of tolerance for others, yet doing what I believe is right in God's eyes.  

When I first discovered the truth about Christmas, I was horrified.  I took every decoration I had and disposed of it, and have never looked back.  However; my immediate family does not see things the same way I do.  

I love my adult kids dearly, and they need to make their own choices - do I make it difficult for them, or do I celebrate with grace and mercy?

The cool thing is, they have been slowly growing away from alot of the trivial stuff.  They know my thoughts - I don't have to drive a wedge between us, nor do I need to continually obsess over it.  I just let God do want He wants to do, and leave it in His Hands.

To say it another way - God is not going to keep people out of heaven because they celebrate Christmas  ;)

Shalom, Nana

Hello Tom,

Greetings in the name of the true Lord Jesus Christ of the Scriptures. Yes, it is true that the days of the week are named after pagan gods but that does not make partaking in wicked pagan customs something that is okay to do. You are missing an important point in your reasoning here. If a Christian were to wake up on a Saturday and begin his day by giving honor to the god of Saturday with whatever customs the pagans do, then the Christian is involved in things that do not honor God. Yet, if a Christian referred to Saturday as Saturday because that is the name given to that day then there is nothing wrong in that. A man mighty in the Word of God had the same name as a pagan god, Apollo. He did not change his name even though it was the same name as a pagan God, there is no sin in that. Yet, if Apollo practiced the worship or copied the worship style given to the pagan god Apollo, and renamed its traditions and customs with biblical names and meanings then he would have been in sin. Using the word Christmas as a name of a religious holiday which takes place in December is not sin, but to practice the pagan rites which have been baptized in Christian terminology that is associated with the Christmas holiday is.

You say that you “think that the Christmas issue is a silly issue to divide Christians.” I don’t know how you can say that in light of the importance God’s Word places on truth and obedience. Christmas involves worship but is it worship to the true God or some other god? Does God accept this worship or does He count it the same as the strange fire Nadab and Abihu tried to offer Him in their own authority. It doesn’t matter how sincere one is when they go against God’s Word by offering God something He never asked for or commanded. It doesn’t matter what one says Christmas means to them, it matters what it means to God and He will not accept strange fire no matter how sincere or self deceived one is concerning their offer of worship if it is not according to God’s rules. Instead of pleasing God many dishonor Him.

Lev 10:1 “And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not. 2  And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD. 3  Then Moses said unto Aaron, This is it that the LORD spake, saying, I will be sanctified in them that come nigh me, and before all the people I will be glorified. And Aaron held his peace. “

There are many examples in the Scripture of people offering God what they believe is true worship and sacrifice but in reality is not. In each case man has taken it on himself to create his own rules of worship and neglect the rules God already established. We have Adam and Eve trying to be accepted before God in their own efforts by covering their nakedness and shame with leaves. God showed them this was wrong and corrected them by slaying innocent animals and making the animal skins a covering for Adam and Eve that was acceptable to Him. Cain offered the fruit of the ground which must have been very beautiful and pleasing to mans eyes. Abel offered a the firstlings of his flock which most likely was a bloody animal sacrifice which was most likely not very pleasant to the eyes of man. God rejected Cain’s sacrifice and accepted Abel’s.  You have the woman of Samaria who Jesus gently rebuke in John 4 saying that they did not even know what they were worshiping even though they claimed they worshiped God. The problem they had was they created their own worship by their own authority and they ended up not even worshiping God.
Christmas is a man made tradition stolen from the pagans with all of its rites and repackaged with biblical names and meanings then offered to God. God never commanded us to worship Him in Christmas, yet He clearly commanded us not to learn the worship styles of the pagans. Christmas is a clear example of man making void the Word of God by his own traditions. When it comes to worship it might be a small matter in your eyes but God takes it very seriously and even killed those who dared to go against His Word and offer Him strange fire.
Just because you feel no guilt when you celebrate Christmas does not mean that it is okay. Many who disobey God do so claiming they have a clear conscience. Yet, it reality all they proved was that their conscience was sheared with a hot iron so that they no longer were sensitive to the instructions of the Lord. To find comfort by the fact that the majority of those who profess Christ as Lord and Savior partake of a worship that is not pleasing to God is a false comfort that is dangerous to fall into. God does not change something that is wrong into something that is right just because the masses practice what is wrong, rather He demands that the masses repent and do what is right. The question still remains, “Can God be worshiped in lies?”  Is the RCC mass a lie or is it truth? Is the christ of the RCC mass the true Christ of Scripture or if he a false christ based in religious deception? Is not the very term christmass a lie in and of itself? If so, then are we not commanded by God to walk in truth and not to lie to one another? How can one partake of christmas and not violate truth itself? The Lord Jesus of the Bible is truth, the christ of the RCC mass is a lie.

God bless
pilgrim  
 

Rom 14:4  Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
Rom 14:5  One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
Rom 14:6  He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
Rom 14:7  For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.


Jos 24:15  And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Hello Mr. Roger,

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. Romans 14 is routinely used by those wishing to justify observing pagan holidays such as halloween, christmas and easter.  Romans 14 is taken horrendously out of context to justify these pagan holidays. The days mention in this chapter at one time were God ordained Old Testament observances which no longer need to be observed under the New Testament. Here is an excellent article on Romans 14 and christmas  http://members.aol.com/gregscv/garnett2.htm  I hope you take the time to read it.

I ask you the questions “can God be worshiped in lies?” Is the RCC mass a biblical truth or is it a diabolical lie? Is not the term christmas a lie in and of itself? What is merry about the RCC mass which is used by Satan to blind mens eyes to the light of the true gospel? If the very nature of christmas is a lie can God be worshiped by it?

The problem with christmas is that it has a very deep emotional hold on most who practice it. Many people properly discern other matters that do not have this kind of hold on them. Christmas is a huge family thing for many and they refuse to repent of it because to much is at stake for them. I have been asking these questions to co-workers who claim to be Christians and I can see that it is a painful question for them to answer. Some have said that they never gave these things any thought at all. They admit that the very term christmas is a religious deception that can not be true according to the Word of God and yet they feel to reject christmas is to reject family which leaves them feeling very uncomfortable. For conversation sake try asking a few people you know to answer these questions. Look at their faces and you will see the painful struggle that takes place in an honest person as they weight what they know is right against what they want to do. Most people refuse to let the Word of God judge christmas because they intend to practice it for family reasons regardless. This is scary when one considers the Words of the Lord Jesus in Matthew 10:

Mat 10:32 “Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. 33  But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. 34  Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. 35  For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. 36  And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. 37  He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38  And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.”

God bless
pilgrim
 

Pilgrim,

Personally I do not celebrate "Christmas" in the traditional manner. I do celebrate the birth of Jesus daily and thank God for that wonderous occasion.

I would like to ask you one question though. Do you celebrate Thanksgiving, or your birthday or the birthdays of family members? Easter, perhaps Veterans Day, Memorial Day or any of the other such holidays?

All of these holidays have one thing in common with Christmas, they were made by man for man. When I celebrate any of these holidays, Jesus Christ is the center of that celebration. Does that make worshipping God a lie then also?

Or is it just the name that offends you? The word mas (mæsse) is a latin word that literally means the dismissal at the end of a religious service. The word Christ mæsse, shortened to Christmas, came into being for a service that celebrated the birth of Jesus Christ. Personally I see nothing wrong with celebrating and thanking God for the birth of Jesus Christ.

Personally I prefer "God bless you" over "Merry Christmas".

When any holiday becomes more important, for or against it,  than the grace of God through Jesus Christ, it is a sin, I will agree to that.

I for one will not belittle another for celebrating "Christmas" or for not celebrating it. That is for each to decide.

Rom 14:4  Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

This kind of reminds me of when the adulterous woman was brought before Jesus, so that He would condemn her for her sin.

And again with the thief on the cross, who at first reviled Jesus and then asked for forgiveness.

The argument for and against Christmas really boils down to our relationship with God.  The moment you begin to judge another person's celebration of it, you are making their salvation dependent on works and not on grace through faith.

I believe that God has even used Christmas to bring people into His heart - I know that's a shock  ::)  God's grace and blessings are not dependent on what we do.  He loves in spite of, not because of.

Please . . .  do not take me wrong.  I am not for sloppy grace.  I believe obedience and refining according to the Word of God is critical in a person's life.  We must seek after God above all else for His leading and direction and to love and pursue truth with all of our hearts.

It's just that God is bigger than what we can ever do, or think or say.  It is a matter of the heart.

Those who are without sin, may cast the first stone :)

Shalom, Nana

John 4:23 “But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24  God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.”

"Romans 14 is taken horrendously out of context to justify these pagan holidays."

It appears you are also taking scripture out of context to support an arguement against said pagan holidays?
 
To worship in spirit simply indicates genuine worship from the heart.  Worship in truth means worship grounded in God’s Word.   The basic requirement is that we are to worship Christ alone, and not  allow any person or thing to be glorified in our lives beside Him. We observe many rituals and celebrations in our daily lives, none of which diminish our dedication  towards Christ, unless we allow it to.  You can toss out the decor, and turn out the lights, refuse to buy gifts, and send away the carolers, none of which  says anything about how much you love God, or wether you worship Him in spirit and in truth, nor does it make  you anymore "righteous" than the guy who lights up the neighborhood, or your worship more acceptable to Him.
Determine for yourself if you indeed worship in spirt and truth.
 

Back to the question, “Can God be worshiped in lies?” Is the RCC mass a biblical truth or is it a diabolical lie? Is not the term christmas a lie in and of itself? What is merry about the RCC mass which is used by Satan to blind mens eyes to the light of the true gospel? If the very nature of christmas is a lie can God be worshiped by it?

Pilgram wrote:
Back to the question, “Can God be worshiped in lies?” Is the RCC mass a biblical truth or is it a diabolical lie? Is not the term christmas a lie in and of itself? What is merry about the RCC mass which is used by Satan to blind mens eyes to the light of the true gospel? If the very nature of christmas is a lie can God be worshiped by it?

Nana:
What you are saying, is that God expects us to have perfect theology before we can worship Him.  Most Christians are unaware of the pagan roots of Christmas or its ties to the RCC.

Before I knew the truth, I still believed in God and worshipped Him with all my heart.  It was no different when I learned the truth, except I had a choice to make for myself how I was going to handle it.  The worship is still the same, because I love Him with all of my heart, soul, mind and strength.

As Shylynne pointed out, we worship in Spirit and in Truth, our religious system does not condemn us, our hearts do if they do not belong to God.

Shalom, Nana

Brother Pilgrim,

An RCC Mass is a moot issue and is not relevant unless you are having an RCC Mass to celebrate Christmas. My family and church wouldn't have a clue what an RCC Christmas Mass is, and what we do would bear no resemblance. As a result, this is simply a silly argument to divide Christians.

We will pack the church and have a great time in the LORD. We might even have some milk and cookies for the kids, coffee and cake for the adults, and maybe some homemade pies. We will have much longer Bible study and worship service. We will do quite a bit more Gospel singing, including several special songs from the children. We will all go home tired and completely guilt free. It will really be the opposite, as we will be happy and fulfilled with worship of Jesus.

It's almost amazing that you are actually saying that Christians can't worship Jesus on Christmas, nor can they have church services. Brother Pilgrim, it's fine if you wish to close the church and hide at home on Christmas. However, I don't choose to do that. I guess we could all hide on any day associated with the pagans, but that would be all days. It's also fine for you or anyone else who feels any guilt to not do anything associated with Christmas. If you feel guilt, by all means, don't do it. I don't feel guilt, so I will have Christmas with my family at home and at church.

On the other side of the coin, there is a move to ban the word Christmas in all government buildings, including schools. That's because it is associated with Christ. There is also a demand to remove the word Christmas as a holiday and replace it with something like winter break. Maybe you could just have a winter break party and use it as an excuse to have special church services and family gatherings to worship the LORD. Call it whatever you wish or whatever you don't feel guilty about. I'll call it Christmas and have no problem at all.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Wow this really reminds me of Paul telling us the "truth" of "things" and how to handle them.  I mean he wasting eating meat sacraficed to false gods.  Could you imagine what pilgram would do to us if he found out we did the same?????  Yet PAul tells us that there is nothing evil about the meat sacraficed to false gods and we can eat anything so long as give thanks for it.  No meat is unclean and no statue posseses evil.  Not unless you do these things even though you believe they wrong.

Rom 14:14  I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

Rom 14:8  For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
Rom 14:9  For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
Rom 14:10  But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
Rom 14:11  For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Rom 14:12  So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
Rom 14:13  Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
Rom 14:14  I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
Rom 14:15  But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.
Rom 14:16  Let not then your good be evil spoken of:
Rom 14:17  For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
Rom 14:18  For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.
Rom 14:19  Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
Rom 14:20  For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.
Rom 14:21  It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
Rom 14:22  Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
Rom 14:23  And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

So brother pilgram if you feel so strongly about this issue by all means you do what seemeth right by you.  We will not impose anything upon you.  I believe this is what BEP is saying.  

Just as a side not though.  If you knew how many things were of "pagan" origin you might find yourself living under a rock.  For instance are you married?  Do you have a wedding band on your finger?  That is also of "pagan" origin but I bet you aren't going to toss it away.  

 ;)

Take care and God bless,
Jason

My wife and I do not wear wedding bans. We see no need to as they mean nothing to us. We have a very solid marriage relationship that has already lasted over 20 years. I don’t know any thing about pagan origins of the wedding ring. Even if it were true you are missing the point. christmas is wrong because of the pagan worship that is copied and baptized in Christian terminology and meaning and offered to the true God rather than the demon it was intended for.

Jer 10:1 “ Hear ye the word which the LORD speaketh unto you, O house of Israel: 2  Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. 3  For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. 4  They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not. 5  They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.”    

Here is how christmas was celebrated in Jeremiah’s day. At the winter solstice when the heathen were dismayed at the signs of the heavens they would go out and cut down an evergreen tree fasten it with nails and hammer so that it would not move and then decorated it. History tells us these pagans would celebrate Natalis Solis Invicti, the birthday of the Unconquerable Sun. They were celebrating the birth of their pagan god. God says learn not these ways.

The RCC comes along and cannot keep the pagans from these practices on the winter solstice so they steal the pagan holiday with all the customs which are still present in christmas celebrations today. They change the birth of the SUN god into the birth of the RCC god and change the meanings of the different customs into so-called biblical meanings. They did just the opposite of what the true God commanded.

God commands us to remember the death of His Son but He never commanded us or gave license to us to celebrate His birth. If God wanted us to celebrate the birth of His Son it would have been instituted while Christ Jesus walk this earth as a man. Yet, there is no command or practice of it found in the Word of God. What we do find in God’s Word is a condemnation of learning to worship like the pagans and coping their ways.

Pilgrim

Do you wish people a “merry christmas”? Does not God’s Word command us to speak truth to one another and to put away lying?

Eph 4:25 “Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.”

Is the christ of the mass the true Christ? Is the mass a biblical truth or a religious lie? Just because your family and friends are ignorant of the RCC mass does that make it okay to speak a lie to them?


Does this make embracing a lie okay?


Where did I say these things?



Where did you come up with this? I assume you are refferring to December 25 when you say christmas. I treat it like I do any other day which is to honor the true God in truth not by trying to offer strange fire.

pilgrim

I take it then that your answer is yes, that God can be worshiped with lies as long as the person is sincere and ignorant concerning the lies of pagan worship. Is this correct?

Pilgrim

So are you saying that Jesus was wrong when He told the Samaritan woman that they did not even know who they worshiped? That God was wrong to kill two priest who offered Him strange fire? That God was wrong to reject Cain’s offering?
To worship in spirit goes hand in hand with worshiping in truth. It is not a matter of one or the other but both. To worship in the spirit simply means you are walking according to the Spirit. That means your conduct is according to Gal. 5

Gal 5:22 “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23  Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.”
 
You cannot be walking in the Spirit when walking in a lie no matter how sincere you are. Nor can you be walking in the truth when walking in a lie?

Pilgrim

Pilgram,
    You are speaking of Scripture in which people were fully aware of what was pagan and what was not.  
     The men who had strange fire were in open rebellion to Moses and to God.
      Christians who are ignorant of the root of Christmas are not knowledgeable and many celebrate out of love for Jesus Christ.  I did not say it was right.
       As I stated before, when you have the truth you need to seek God on how best to handle it.  
       I think you have forgotten that God is merciful and gracious.  He has forgiven the worst of sinners - even David, who continued to sin by having multiple concubines [he knew better].  God called him a "man after His own heart", in spite of sin - because God looks at the heart of man. [ps:  David is the only one that is mentioned by name to reign as a Prince along side of Jesus when He returns - and in Rev 22, Jesus is referrred to as the Root and OffSpring of David].
        What you are saying is that none of the people who celebrate Christmas are children of the Most High God.  This is man's perversion of the grace of God, who separates bone from marrow, and soul from spirit - who scans and updates our motives and intents continually - this is how He deals with the hearts of all of us.
        What you are prescribing is a works based system of continued salvation.  Everything that we do and say - even the words we use to worship God are pagan in origin.  Does this mean we keep our mouths shut?
        As I stated earlier, if you want to judge, then cast the first stone - if you are without sin.

Shalom, Nana

Pilgrim, it is you who is spreading lies, and obviously has no clue whatsoever about what a RCC mass is, or about the many other odd claims you make, but i suspect you are already aware of this now aren't you? Your whole object here is to spread your brand of bigotry, and ignorance.
  I'm not allowed to say anything defending the RCC as you call it due to past problems here, note the Catholic, protestant war is over at the top of the category lists, but sooner or later there ends up being someone like you who just can't hold back, and has to show everybody else what a 'true Christian' is, and how 'true Christians' worship or don't worship in your case.
   I do hope that everyone here has a great thanksgiving, a blessed merry Christmas, and happy new year.
   

 

Please show me where I said this?


Where have I taught this?


Once again, just because pagans speak doesn’t mean that I am sinning because I speak. If I copy them and use speech in the same manor they do such as cursing then that is another story.


Was Paul without sin when he judged this matter?

1Co 5:1 “It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. 2  And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3  For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,”

How is the following to take place in regards to your unscriptural view of judging?

1Co 6:2 “Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3  Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? 4  If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church. 5  I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?”

Years ago they had a gay pride day parade in a small city by me. I remember  when those professing Christ showed up with their protest signs condemning sodomy, the sodomites raised rock with the words “He who is without sin cast the first stone” painted on them. I always find it strange how people use these passages to protect sin. Do you realize that you are judging me at the same time you are trying to tell me I cannot judge? Why is the misuse of the pasasage you use apply to me and not yourself?

Pilgrim

So, you are saying they can worship God with a lie so long as it is done in ignorance, correct?

If it is wrong then isn’t correcting the wrong the godly thing to do? The Corinthians were doing just about every thing wrong and Paul sent them letters of correction. Was he wrong? Shouldn’t he have let them go on in their ignorance rather than judging them and their wrong practices? Do you think Cain made his offering knowing beforehand that it was going to be rejected by God? How about Uzzah:

2Sa 6:3 “And they set the ark of God upon a new cart, and brought it out of the house of Abinadab that was in Gibeah: and Uzzah and Ahio, the sons of Abinadab, drave the new cart. 4  And they brought it out of the house of Abinadab which was at Gibeah, accompanying the ark of God: and Ahio went before the ark. 5  And David and all the house of Israel played before the LORD on all manner of instruments made of fir wood, even on harps, and on psalteries, and on timbrels, and on cornets, and on cymbals. 6  And when they came to Nachon's threshingfloor, Uzzah put forth his hand to the ark of God, and took hold of it; for the oxen shook it. 7  And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Uzzah; and God smote him there for his error; and there he died by the ark of God. 8  And David was displeased, because the LORD had made a breach upon Uzzah: and he called the name of the place Perezuzzah to this day. 9  And David was afraid of the LORD that day, and said, How shall the ark of the LORD come to me?”
 
Was God wrong for killing him? After all wasn’t it a noble think he did (keep the Ark from falling)? Don’t you think his heart was sincere when he steadied the Ark? How about the worship David and the house of Israel offered to God at this event? Do you think God was please with it? Were they sincere in their worship?    

Pilgrim

Pilgrim,

I love you as a Brother in Christ. You obviously don't know what I do on Christmas or any other day. However, you should have a pretty good idea that I am a strong and mature Christian. It's really all about what you do with every day, not just a single day or a group of days called holidays. I could really care less what the pagans did, and I do know what my family and I do with every day.

My family and I rest safe and secure in the mighty Hands of Jesus every day, and we worship Him every day. It really doesn't matter what day of the week or month it is. We could also have church services every day of the year with worship and praise of our Lord and Saviour. What the pagans or the world does with those days means nothing, it's what we do with those days.

We have no guilt or shame with what we do with any day, and there should never be any shame or guilt associated with worship and praise for our LORD and SAVIOUR. Whatever causes shame or guilt for you, don't do it. If something you eat causes shame or guilt for you, don't eat it. Whatever causes shame or guilt for you, don't do it.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Hi all -

Pilgrim, I completely agree with you about Christmas. It is from paganism. What fellowship does darkness have with light? I am glad to see some Christians reject it. I agree that we should (gently) encourage our brothers and sisters to reject celebrating Christmas.

I remember reading in my history class how many pagans were forced to accept Christianity during the reign of Constantine. These pagans had no problems at all switching gods. But they had a difficult time giving up their traditions. This is where we get Christmas and Easter (as well as other things). A good analogy to this would be if you were to marry someone who was divorced or widowed. How would you feel if your spouse celebrated your anniversary and birthday on the days he/she celebrated his/her former spouses anniversary and birthday? Well, if you were like me, that wouldn't fly. My husband would be in the dog house if he brought me flowers to celebrate the anniversary he had with his ex-girlfriend.  :P

My sister is the only other person in my family who is a Christian walking in faith. She celebrates Christmas. I have no doubts about her sincerity and her salvation. However, I know that her worship of the Lord in celebrating Christmas gets clouded by Christmas trees (3 of them this year!), decorations, presents, parties, etc. I know this also from experience, I grew up celebrating Christmas like this. Christ gets lost in the hustle-bustle of the season. That's why people have to remind each other, "Jesus is the reason for the season."

One of the families of my congregation decided to stop celebrating Christmas a few years ago. I was talking to the mother of the family as she described discussing this change with her children. She asked them what was the hardest part for them not celebrating Christmas. She said they were ashamed to admit it, but it was hardest for them to give up the Christmas presents.

Even though I don't agree with celebrating Christmas, I do believe that God is still honored by the sincerity of my brothers and sisters who do. I want to point out that the "temple" described in I & II Samuel, was most likely a pagan temple, yet God called out to Samuel from that place and accepted sacrifices and worship there.

I think if we celebrate the Biblical festivals that God calls for in the Bible, we can't go wrong: By celebrating Passover, we are remembering Jesus' sacrifice for us. By celebrating the feast of First Fruits, we recognize that Jesus resurrected and was the first fruits of the dead. By celebrating the feast of weeks (Shavuot) or Pentecost we are celebrating the giving of the Holy Spirit. By celebrating Rosh Hashana, we are celebrating the time when our Messiah will return. By celebratin Yom Kippur (day of atonements), we are celebrating the atonement we have through Messiah's blood and that only through His blood can we stand through the Judgement Day. By celebrating the feast of Tabernacles (sukkot), we celebrate God becoming flesh and dwelling among us. By celebrating the feast of Dedication (Hanukkah), we celebrate being separate and not assimilated in this world, that we are "the light of the world." (It's interesting that Hanukkah this year falls during the darkest week of the year, when the days are the shortest.) It's also interesting how each Biblical festival is so intrinsically tied to Messiah and our salvation through Him -- that's the way God designed it.

My pastor says, "You'll never see a Passover edition of Playboy magazine."

Hello Chesed,

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. Why do you believe the temple was a pagan place of worship? Is this just speculation on your part or does the Word of God teach this somewhere? Doing a word search in my Bible program bought up only 3 references for the word temple in 1 & 2 Samuel and all 3 says it was the temple of the Lord.

1Sa 1:9 “So Hannah rose up after they had eaten in Shiloh, and after they had drunk. Now Eli the priest sat upon a seat by a post of the temple of the LORD.”

1Sa 3:3 “And ere the lamp of God went out in the temple of the LORD, where the ark of God was, and Samuel was laid down to sleep;”

2Sa 22:7 “In my distress I called upon the LORD, and cried to my God: and he did hear my voice out of his temple, and my cry did enter into his ears.”

God bless,
Pilgrim

Hi there Pilgrim -


Well, first of all the temple we are talking about here in Samuel is before the first Temple in Jerusalem built by Solomon.

The Hebrew word for temple here in 1Samuel is "Haykal" which means temple or palace (Here's the concordance: http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/words/1/1100883630-3624.html (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/words/1/1100883630-3624.html)), but "haykal" is not used previously in the OT to refer to the tabernacle.


The Hebrew word in this verse for "post" is "mezuzah" which is doorpost. The tabernacle didn't have doorposts, because it
didn't have any doors.


If this temple in Samuel were a legitimate temple or the tabernacle, the ark of God would be in the Holy of Holies and Samuel would not be allowed to sleep there.

Also, this temple is in Shiloh which is on a hill. The pagans used high places to build their temples.

So it seems that the children of Israel used this former pagan temple as a temple to worship God after the exodus from Egypt (there are references to this temple in Shiloh in Judges), and before Solomon's Temple.

So going back to the Christmas issue, I think this is a great analogy of how God does still accept the worship of the sincere, despite the pollution of paganism. I'm not using this to say that it is good to allow pagan practices. I think we should strive to worship God the way He asked us to worship Him. Obviously, there were negative consequences to the influence of paganism to the Children of Israel all over the Bible.

Take care,
Chesed

Hi Chesed,

Greetings again. So what you are saying at best is speculation. God’s Word says it was the temple of the Lord which is not speculation but truth. The argument you set forth really does not address the debate on christmass even if the temple originally was used by pagans in the worship of their pagan gods. Now if Israel were to go into this temple and worship the true God in the same manner and customs that the pagans used in their worship of false gods, and God accepted it, then you would have a valid point. Although it is true that christmass is pagan in its origin is not the point of concern so much as the pagan practices and customs associated with it. The problem arises when people who claim to be children of the true God worship using the same practices and customs of those who worship false gods.

Col 2:8 “Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.”

Christmass is one item that this verse addresses very well. It starts out with a warning “beware”. The warning is about those who “spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit”. Christmass is a religious philosophy base in vain deceit therefore we should heed the warning to beware of it. Christmass did not come from the Bible therefore it is not according to the true Christ. Christmas is a tradition of man that has been born out of the rudiments of this world which has been repackaged to look like something God would approve of, but in reality despises because of its very nature is a lie. Many who claim to be children of God have fallen for this lie and have been spoiled by it to their own shame.

God bless,

Pilgrim
(are you the same pilgrim in Praize.com??)
If you are, I respect your input, and think highly of yopur comments-  but hear me out ok?
There are many holidays that are quite bogus.  Holloween being the worst. (im sure u agree) and yes there are lots of bad points of christmas,. the commercialism especally!  it makes most grown ups dread it.  and the rip-off artists enjoy the profits.  but let me make a statement for christmas nonetheless.

Holoween for example make most people concious of demonic stuff, and practice in it too.  its awful.  but consider the effect christmas has on people...,
Yes its covered in Santa claus and presents, trees ect.. but it DOES make people think at least some of Christ.  It seems to be a time when families get together and express love for eachother in some way.  It is used by the church to reach out to the unsaved via christmas plays, caroling in malls ect.

I personally was saved at a christmas play.  I am a by-product of the christmas celebration, and I dont think I would have been open to going to the church for a play if it werent for christmas.
same goes for Easter.  it may have an easter bunny and eggs as pasrt of the celebration, BUT it does at least provoke some kinda thought of Christ in most who dont even know Him.

so.. dont down Christmas alltogether.

Pilgrim -

Yes, the idea that the building used by the Israelites in Shiloh was a former pagan temple is speculation or an "educated guess." We know that Shiloh was a religious center to the canaanites, it was a "high place." The children of Israel in Joshua's time set up the Tabernacle at Shiloh when they conquered the land. The Tabernacle was later destroyed by the Philistines. After that they met in a mysterious "heykal," one that there is no record of God's instructions to them to build a Temple. This is in contrast to the vast, very detailed instructions God gave to Moses to build the Tabernacle, to Solomon to build the first Temple in Jerusalem, and to Ezekiel for the future Temple.

Throughout Israel's history, paganism has been a snare to them, and even still God was patient with them, punishing them after many years and many warnings. But they were still His People.

I think there's a similar situation with today's church. A lot of paganism has seeped into the Church over the course of hundreds of years. But we all still worship God. And I believe He will deal with the pagan influences and traditions of men in time.

In Deut. 12, God says, 28 "Be careful to listen to all these words which I command you, so that it may be well with you and your sons after you forever, for you will be doing what is good and right in the sight of the LORD your God. 29 "When the LORD your God cuts off before you the nations which you are going in to dispossess, and you dispossess them and dwell in their land, 30 beware that you are not ensnared to follow them, after they are destroyed before you, and that you do not inquire after their gods, saying, 'How do these nations serve their gods, that I also may do likewise?' 31 " You shall not behave thus toward the LORD your God, for every abominable act which the LORD hates they have done for their gods; for they even burn their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods. 32 " Whatever I command you, you shall be careful to do; you shall not add to nor take away from it. "

Definately, I believe this passage relates to Christmas and Easter and the related practices. Christmas trees, wreaths, easter (named after the pagan godess Ishtar) bunnies and eggs are all pagan symbols of fertility and have nothing to do with Christ and should have no place in worship of Him.

Most people I know who celebrate Christmas, don't do it because they feel convicted to do it. Most of them do it because of nostalgia, tradition, and fun. I know that for my sister, even though she tries to create ties to Messiah's birth, it is mostly the nostalgia, tradition and fun that's at the heart of her Christmas keeping. Yet, I have no doubt that she is a Christian, that she has given her life to the Lord and she worships Him in so many other ways. I know many Christians like this.

So Pilgrim, you are part of a minority in Christianity not celebrating Christmas. Do you go to a congregation where others feel the same as you do? In trying to weed out the paganism in the way you practice Christianity, do you also keep a 7th day (Saturday) Sabbath, instead of Sunday -- as instituted by Constantine in honor of the venerable day of the sun (god)? Just curious...

Take care,
Chesed

You make a good point here. Many people of all different beliefs actually fall into this category. Not just with Christmas and Easter. These people celebrate the days that they do because of "the nostalgia, tradition and fun" and not because they feel convicted to do so and not necessarily because they were directed to do so by God. This is some peoples reason for attending church.

I know of one such person. At the end of the service that person has no idea what songs were sung or what was preached but they knew who all was there, what each person wore and what each person had said and to whom they said it to.

“Can God be worshiped in lies?”

The answer is, No.

Christian worship on the day designated by men as Christmas should be no different than the worship of any other day. Worship of God is done in truth and spirit. In truth being Jesus Christ and in spirit being our attitude

The secular trappings of Christmas, the tree, gifts, family get togethers, the pagan additions, etc. are not worship in themselves unless one makes them worship or does them in worship. No more than when I check my calendar for a date or spend money with all its pagan symbols adorned thereon.

ollie

Hi ItalianBird,

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. I am not sure if I am on Praize.com or not, if I am you should see the link to “New Life Bible Chapel”   http://www.nlbchapel.org somewhere in my post or profile.


The reasoning you propose boils down to “The ends justify the means” we need to be careful using that kind of reasoning. I remember many years ago reading a newspaper article titled “Stripper for Christ’. The article was about a stripper who claimed to be a born again Christian. She would do a striptease and then preach the gospel to those watching. She reasoned that she was reaching a crowd of men who would never set foot in a church. She used the “The ends justify the means” reasoning to justified her sin of stripping.

I thank God that you were saved. Yet, it is to our (Christians) shame that you had to go to church in order to hear the gospel. God never intended the Church to be a gospel hall where unsaved people go to hear the gospel. Eph. 4 tells us that God’s design for the Church was a place for those who are already saved to be equipped so that they are no longer toss to a fro by every wind of doctrine (such as pagan holidays). It was the training center for those who are already saved so that they would be equipped to share the gospel with the unsaved in their community. God way of doing evangelism (Rom. 10:9-17) is to send the preacher to the unsaved, not the unsaved to the preacher as is commonly practice by men  today.

Pilgrim

Hi Chesed,

Greetings. I am not saying that one who celebrates christmas is not a believer. Others here made that statement about me, but when challenged to show where I taught such a thing they remained silent, not even an apology for speaking something that was not true against me. I find it ironic that some who want to justify celebrating a lie such as christmas, will use things that are not true in defense of it. I guess I should not be surprised!


I would agree to a certain point. Those who foolishly try to worship God using pagan worship practices are not worshiping God, rather just the opposite they become an object of His displeasure. Yet, when they worship according to His Word then they become an object of His pleasure.


Amen! a thousand times Amen!



No problem here.


Those who practice truth were always the minority. According to Jesus in Matthew 7 it will be the few who enter the narrow way to life, and the many who will chose the broad way to destruction. It appears I am in good company. Everyone in our congregation has the same mind concerning pagan holidays such as christmas, easter, halloween and most everything else.


neither!

God bless,
Pilgrim

Good answer ollie.

Ollie -


Well, some people try to force a connection to Christ with these pagan practices, i.e. "resurrection eggs" for easter (Ishtar) eggs, having a Christmas tree because Christ died on a tree and things like that I don't agree with.

(Speaking with my tongue in my cheek) One has to bow to the Christmas tree to place and retrieve the presents underneath it. How do you feel about the song "O Christmas tree"? Sounds like a worship song...

Hey, did you guys know that practicing Christmas was against the law in early American history? Interesting, isn't it?

Pilgrim, I appreciate your desire to tell people the truth about Christmas. I myself don't celebrate Christmas as such. I do not attach any meaning or value to the traditions that my family hold ( they aren't Christians), and I treat this period in December the same way that I treat every other day in the year. I do howver think that it is a good time for reaching out to the unsaved, simply because of the name and its connotations.

Yes, you are totally right about church though, it wasn't meant to be a place for evangelism, but for believers. I agree with that. I also think that God uses people, weak and sinful as they are, to accomplish His purposes. If someone believes in Christ as a result of a church service then that can only be a good thing, provided it is a genuine conversion, and they continue in discipleship.

In answer to your question.. no God cannot be worshipped with lies. When I live by myself, I won't put up decorations either or any such things. Our church stopped putting up a tree and all the stuff that goes with it too. It is a time when unbelievers are actively encouraged to come though, and if that particular service is intended to be evangelistic, then so be it. Its making the most of an easy opportunity to witness to people.

You make some good points, and while I would never think any less of people who choose to disagree, I pretty much agree with what you're saying.

Hi Bern,

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. I have used the christmas issue to reach out to people both saved and unsaved. A man who works at the same place I do was recently saved. He was raised in a denominational church which taught a false view of God. Before he was saved he had no use for God or religious people as a result of the things he was taught in this church. He rightly reasoned that if the things he was taught about God in this church were true then God is not a God of love. In fact, he viewed the god of this church as sadistic and evil. He knew I was a Christian and he knew I openly spoke about the things of God. He was careful about not talking about spiritual things with me for many weeks when I started working third shift with him. One day I asked him about his spiritual life and he told me the things above and much more. In the course of the conversation I mentioned how I thought religious people were some of the worst people in the world and how I believed that the churches were filled with unsaved religious people. This grabbed his attention and he wanted to know more. From that time on we had many more spiritual conversations and the christmas issue was one of them. I shared many of the same things that I posted on this board. He saw that I was different than any of the religious people he grew up with and that I believed differently than the average church goer that he ever meet. He would ask many questions and I would as much as possible show him what God’s Word said rather than my own opinion. I tried to give him chapter and verse for every question he came up with. We shared many breaks just going through the Word of God. He started reading some books from sound Christian men and became convicted about his sin. One night he took his break in his car, when he came back in the building he found me and told me that he gave his heart to the Lord Jesus Christ by calling on His name for salvation. The christmas issue played a part in his search for truth, he saw it as another big lie just like the lies he was taught in his church about God. He became and still is (many months later) a truth seeker. He doesn’t care about the opinions of men and wants to know God’s truth above all. You can pray for him if the Lord leads you to do so. He has been fighting a spiritual battle since his conversion with many religious people trying to get him to come to their church (which is no better than the one he grew up in) or trying to tell him it is okay to disobey God in matters that are not tied to salvation, how unity is more important than sound doctrine. I told him to press these people for chapter and verse to back up the things they say. He is doing well in the battle so far and I keep encouraging him to be a truth seeker rather than follow the religious status quo of men.

Every year I start  topics like this one on different forums. I know before I start the topic that many religious people will get upset and try to justify christmas with all kinds of strange reasoning that they would rebuke others for doing if the topic was on a different subject. These people have their minds made up and don’t want to be confused by the facts. I know it is a slim to none chance of reaching these people with the truth. Yet, I continue the debate because every time so far I have received many private e-mail from individuals who say that they never heard these thing before. Many say their eyes have been opened and that they will be making major chances in their lives concerning christmas. Some have contacted me up to a year later thanking me for sharing the things I did concerning christmas, saying at first they were hurt and offended but they could not run from the truth and had to finally deal with it. It is these people who encourage me to continue speaking the truth about christmas.

Thanks for your comments and may God richly bless you as you seek to serve Him.

Pilgrim  

When people point out the truth that is not commonly accepted, they are usually made fun of.. or called a moaner. Or legalistic or some such thing. Thats fine, i've come to accept that I will be given those names. I've given my opinion of various issues on this forum which I know will be riducled because they require thought and a change within peoples hearts.  If someone proves me wrong by scripture then great! I'm happy to be proved wrong if I am in error, and welcome correction. I will know deep down if they have a good point and will always pray and research the points they bring up. I feel that as we get closer to God, we begin to know His mind more and more, the things that upset Him. Sometimes it is difficult to find the scriptures you need to back up your opinions, because that particular thing is not mentioned by name in the bible. It is often an issue which is part of a bigger problem.

Anyway, thanks for the post.

Force??
Who has a Christmas tree for anything other than its festive addition to the environment. Who has colored hard boiled eggs for anything other than hiding and finding them? How many have any of this for pagan or religious reasons? It is done now through commercialism. Buy, Buy, Buy! $$$$$$$!

Just another Christmas song among many. Not quite as bad as the trash the recording industry throws at us. That is the music and songs where there should be concern of a real type.

Did they not also burn people at the stake for alledgedly being witches?

ollie

http://www.nlbchapel.org/xmas.htm