ChristiansUnite Forums

President Bush claims to be against Abortion.  Abortion is killing.  But President Bush sends OUR armies into Iraq to kill people. They kill innocent civilians and Iraqi babies.

Why are we Christians not calling for President Bush to stop the killing of Iraqi babies?  Why aren't we calling for the President to stop killing ALL people - born and unborn?

THOU SHALT NOT KILL.

what is so hard to understand about "thou shalt not kill?"

which part is it that throws bush, his followers, and so many war-supporting pseudo-christians throughout history for a loop?

www.lancet.org estimates 100,000 civilian deaths so far in the war on terror. innocent people, including babies and women.

george w. bush oversaw, given the US status as BIGGEST users of the death penalty in the world and texas as the highest users in the US, the most death penalty exeutions in the world including those of mentally handicapped people and minors.

is this the "culture of life" that we're seeking?

this is not the way of christ.

What do you think the public response would be if Texas started executing mothers who had had abortions?

If abortion is premeditated murder and the death penalty is proper, isn't this the correct thing to have done?

Marv

Actually, the direct translation was "Thou Shalt Not Commit Murder".  As demonstrated in the Books of Joshua, Judges, First and Second Maccabees, the Lord has permited war related killings, even to a grand scale.

There is also a big difference in accidental deaths, and the actual targeting of the innocent, as done by the enemy the opposition supports either directly, or indirectly.

It amazes me that those who cry out about the thousands of collateral deaths in this war also support the slaughter of millions of unborn children.

murder is murder is murder.
invading another country without provoked attack and slaughtering innocents by the tens or hundreds of thousands is against the teachings of Christ.

Your response is blatantly ignorant and typical of what Christianity has become to many today:, a way of justifying the legislation of moral principles, despite the grossly apparent hypocrisy inherent to them. NO abortion but YES to the CONDONING THROUGH SUPPORT of the killing of people in a country who never attacked us, including women and children?

the government conducts war KNOWINGLY accepting civilian casualties from the outset. bombs and weapons are built with your tax money that will kill everything for hundreds of miles around. most recently, all "military aged men" from 18 to 34 were prevented from leaving fallujah prior to the tens of thousands-strong invasion by the US and UK. these men needed no prior evidence of insurgent involvement. we just "had to be sure."

THESE ARE NOT THE TEACHINGS OF CHRIST.
the "moral majority" of pat robertson, and now the bush dynasty, has wrestled the word of Jesus away from Jesus in order to justify hatred and murder.

 
 What a huge pile of Hyperbole! How disingenuous does it get folks?

Thou Shall Not Murder is the correct translation my friends.

 Included among the Ten Commandments was the simple command "You shall not murder." This command did not prohibit all killing, but only certain kinds of killing. Under normal circumstances, capital punishment and killing during warfare were not considered murder. Capital punishment was a part of the covenant itself (Exodus 21:12–17).

 Why don't you ask God why He killed all those babies in Egypt? Also, ask God why He killed every living soul, including babies in Sodom & Gomorra?

 In Deuteronomy 20, God gave laws regulating warfare. Offers of surrender, plundering and enslavement of the enemy's females and children are all regulated in chapter 20. Deu 20:16 But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee [for] an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:  

 My friends, if you hate Bush for fighting against terrorism, you must realy hate God for being so thoroughly brutal huh?

Deuteronomy 20 plainly says that some of Israel's future wars would take them far from their borders. So the warfare anticipated in the chapter was not even limited to defensive warfare fought only in their own territory. Nor was it limited to the occupation of the Promised Land. It involved the destruction of cities and the enslavement of women and children far from the land of Israel.

 These insurgents are sworn enemies of Israel my friends. We know what God does to such as these.

 No sane person wants to see any innocent people get killed in war, especially babies. The U.S. take great care not to hit innocent people. Don't you know that the U.S. military could easily wipe of the entire country without any regard to innocent life? War is nasty business, and a fact of life which can not be avoided. Would you have our enemies attack us without fear of reprisal?

 Look how long the negotiations took place in regard to Falluja. They didn't rush in and wipe everyone out did they? They gave the insurgents many opportunities to surrender their weapons and go home - they offered them amnesty! It was only after months of failed negotiations that the army has finally moved in to secure the city.

Bronzesnake

I couldn't have said it better, my friend!

does the word of God detail the "rules of war" when the war itself is fought for political and monetary gain?

iraq did not attack us.

100,000 civilians have died as a result of this war.

more people have died at the hands of "Christian" crusades than of all other wars combined.

is this the "culture of life" that bush speaks of?
a culture that builds nuclear bombs and threatens to kill other people who do the same?
a culture where the death penalty is still used on children, leaving us one of the only countries on earth to still use this practice?
a culture where profits are made from the manufacture of weapons of death?

wake up. please. Jesus would not condone this.

I love it when the Crusades are overmentioned in history.  How small were the crusades compared to the Muslim conquests?  North Africa, Syria, Turkey, all the way up to Wester Iraq were Judeo/Christian before they became Muslim.  Do you think they converted to Islam out of pure curiosity?  If you think this, I am not the one posting ignorant replies.

And please do not rewrite the Bible.  The translation is "Do NOT MURDER"

Would Jesus approve.  Unknown.  But be advised that the wars mentioned in the Old Testament were for LAND.  Does this mean God was evil?

 :'(

GOD INVITES YOU TO TRUST HIS SON AND BE SAVED!

Don’t Delay – No Time to Lose!

II Corinthians 6:2 – "For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succored thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation."

You are privileged to live in a dispensation where God is administering His grace! Accept His free offer by faith (in His Son) today. After you leave this life it will be too late.

 :'(

GOD INVITES YOU TO TRUST HIS SON AND BE SAVED!

Don’t Delay – No Time to Lose!

II Corinthians 6:2 – "For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succored thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation."

You are privileged to live in a dispensation where God is administering His grace! Accept His free offer by faith (in His Son) today. After you leave this life it will be too late.

 Saddam and the insurgents are sworn enemies of the Jews.
The Bible is clear as to how God deals with these peoples.

  You can not be taken serious when you come to a Christian forum and slam Christians, using disingenuous, one sided arguments such as... more people have died at the hands of "Christian" crusades than of all other wars combined. That is just plain foolish. I don't know if you are lying or just seriously misinformed.
 Where is your condemnation of Islamist terrorism?

 Bronzesnake
 

The crusades
The Spanish Inquisition
The Reformation
The witch trials
The Holocaust

All that death and more iin the name of Christ.

It would perhaps be unacceptable in some circles to point out the fact that in many European countries, religion plays an even smaller role in people's lives than it does in America - yet levels of violence are lower than here. Were a lack of religion any sort of cause of violence, then we would find higher amounts of violence in countries like Germany rather than Ireland, where both religion and violence have been prominent in daily life.

Facts like this must lead any rational person to treat claim of religion as a solution to our ills - real or perceived - with real skepticism. Religion has in fact done even more to promote base inhumanity when it has become wedded to ruling political powers. It has been a common pattern throughout human history that wherever religious dogmas have gained worldly power, violence was abetted rather than stopped. Even if a person were to successfully argue that none of the violence was caused by religion, the fact would remain that religion not only failed to stop it, but has actually served as a useful tool for those perpetuating it.

Is Christianity only a religion of Peace and Love? I do not think that anyone can honestly and objectively examine American or European history and answer "yes" to that question. Christianity can encourage Peace and Love - but it certainly need not, and it quite often has done just the opposite. Although the people responsible for violence might have found a way to express their hatred without Christianity, it cannot be ignored that Christianity offers a convenient divine mandate for hatred and violent acts against a wide range of people.

 :'(

GOD INVITES YOU TO TRUST HIS SON AND BE SAVED!

Don’t Delay – No Time to Lose!

II Corinthians 6:2 – "For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succored thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation."

You are privileged to live in a dispensation where God is administering His grace! Accept His free offer by faith (in His Son) today. After you leave this life it will be too late.

 :'(

GOD INVITES YOU TO TRUST HIS SON AND BE SAVED!

Don’t Delay – No Time to Lose!

II Corinthians 6:2 – "For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succored thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation."

You are privileged to live in a dispensation where God is administering His grace! Accept His free offer by faith (in His Son) today. After you leave this life it will be too late.

Right On!!!

 :)

GOD INVITES YOU TO TRUST HIS SON AND BE SAVED!

Don’t Delay – No Time to Lose!

II Corinthians 6:2 – "For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succored thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation."

You are privileged to live in a dispensation where God is administering His grace! Accept His free offer by faith (in His Son) today. After you leave this life it will be too late.

" I know this is a difficult time for my supporters, but I ask them, all of you, to join me in doing that. Now, more than ever, with our soldiers in harm's way, we must stand together and succeed in Iraq and win the war on terror."
John Kerry 11/03/04

WOW!!!! LOL


 :'(

GOD INVITES YOU TO TRUST HIS SON AND BE SAVED!

Don’t Delay – No Time to Lose!

II Corinthians 6:2 – "For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succored thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation."

You are privileged to live in a dispensation where God is administering His grace! Accept His free offer by faith (in His Son) today. After you leave this life it will be too late.

 :'(

GOD INVITES YOU TO TRUST HIS SON AND BE SAVED!

Don’t Delay – No Time to Lose!

II Corinthians 6:2 – "For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succored thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation."

You are privileged to live in a dispensation where God is administering His grace! Accept His free offer by faith (in His Son) today. After you leave this life it will be too late.

Saddam and the Baathist party were very notably secular socialists. The major middle-eastern conflict with the Jews now has little to do with religious difference and much to do with the fact that the Christian powers created Israel in the Arab homeland of Palestine, and now uses American money and equipment to kill women and children fighting for a return to their homes as they try to prevent starvation and disease.

Terrorism is a product of oppression and violence. Most terrorist recruiting happens in response to people who have lost loved ones to an oppressor (such as the US in Iraq today,) seeking vengeance. The IRA are of the Judeo-Christian faith and are the longest running terrorist organization in the world. This has nothing to do with their faith (talk about one-sided and closed minded...not everything in this world happens because of the human-created notion of vengeful, omnipotent beings...) and a lot to do with the fact that the British government has occupied their homeland forcefully for a LONG time.

I am trying to point out here that THE CONDONING OF DEATH OF INNOCENTS is in direct opposition to the heart of the Christ.
Why will no one acknowledge or counter this argument? How can a weak translation of "thou shalt not murder" justify the killing of hordes and hordes of innocents in the name of an all-loving being who asks us to "turn the other cheek" when we are struck?

This major dilemma is at the core of what is wrong with the world today. There will indeed be a day of reckoning, and I'm hoping for your sake that the Lord is as forgiving as the Bible tells us. A majority of the voting public selected a president who is fighting a war for power and profit because they appealed to a very narrow minded, hateful, and skewed version of Christianity which lacks tolerance and celebrates holocaust-scale murder.

I feel sorry for you.

 


Amen!!!


 :)
GOD INVITES YOU TO TRUST HIS SON AND BE SAVED!

Don’t Delay – No Time to Lose!

II Corinthians 6:2 – "For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succored thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation."

You are privileged to live in a dispensation where God is administering His grace! Accept His free offer by faith (in His Son) today. After you leave this life it will be too late.

 :'(

GOD INVITES YOU TO TRUST HIS SON AND BE SAVED!

Don’t Delay – No Time to Lose!

II Corinthians 6:2 – "For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succored thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation."

You are privileged to live in a dispensation where God is administering His grace! Accept His free offer by faith (in His Son) today. After you leave this life it will be too late.

So what is being stated is that there is an excuse for Terrorism?  That Terrorism is legitimate?  The Church bombings in Iraq are cool?  What is it you are saying?

I agree


 :)
GOD INVITES YOU TO TRUST HIS SON AND BE SAVED!

Don’t Delay – No Time to Lose!

II Corinthians 6:2 – "For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succored thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation."

You are privileged to live in a dispensation where God is administering His grace! Accept His free offer by faith (in His Son) today. After you leave this life it will be too late.

Why don't we just say here, let's hold God accountable here for the killings that are going on in Iraq. Because that seems to be what is being implied here. I myself don't like the fact that innocent people are dying in Iraq. And I definitely want to see our young men and women come home sooner than later. If these foreign fighters that are coming into the country really want peace then why don't they just go home and let the nation of Iraq begin the process of rebuilding its nation. The reason that so many women and children are dying is because these cowards are using them as shields and placing their weapons in hospitals and schools. Tell me, would we allow the military to do this in America. My prayer is that God will watch over the people of Iraq and deal with the criminal element that is trying to destroy any chance for Iraq to come out of this mess as a free democracy.

I am not here as a supporter of the other side of a two-devil-headed coin in a Democratic politician.
I am here to raise a question the minds of the unwaveringly faithful that maybe their agenda is being dictated to them from the wrong sources...from the mouths of rich politicians with self-interest in mind and not from the love of the son of God.
The neo-conservative hijacking of politics as morality has forced many great men into compromise, including Kerry and others, given that our nation is predominantly Christian in its makeup. This saddens me...greatly.

This war has been called unjustified and a "war crime" by the most intelligent and compassionate men on the planet including the head of the U.N., Stephen Hawking, the Dalai Lama, and the Pope himself. Please look at what is going on and question yourselves, if not just for one minute.

 :'(

GOD INVITES YOU TO TRUST HIS SON AND BE SAVED!

Don’t Delay – No Time to Lose!

II Corinthians 6:2 – "For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succored thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation."

You are privileged to live in a dispensation where God is administering His grace! Accept His free offer by faith (in His Son) today. After you leave this life it will be too late.

 The Holocaust was in the name of Christ???

Here's some "non religious" death hogs, you may not have heard of. I'll only list a few of them, as this web site isn't big enough to add them all...

 Stalin

 Hitler

 Pol Pot

 Idi Amin

 Mussolini

 Mao Zedong

 Muammar al-Qaddafi

 Kim Jong Il

 Bashar al-Assad

 Robert Mugabe

 Augusto Pinochet

 Should I list all the Caesars? How about the Mongols? or the Islamists?

 Bronzesnake

Bronzsnake:

You are ABSOLUTELY right.  We are told that GOD is will deal with the enemies of the Jews.  So why aren't you calling on President Bush to leave the Iraqi people alone so that GOD may deal with them and not the United States Army?  

The United States Army is not an army of God, they are not a Christian Army.  That army is not sworn to uphold the laws of God or the bible, or fight for the laws of God or the bible.  They are not sworn to defend the jews.  They are not sworn to defend the holy land in Israel.  They are sworn to defend the United States of America.

Why do you not tell the President to get the American troops out of Iraq and let "GOD deal with these peoples?"

Good


 :)

GOD INVITES YOU TO TRUST HIS SON AND BE SAVED!

Don’t Delay – No Time to Lose!

II Corinthians 6:2 – "For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succored thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation."

You are privileged to live in a dispensation where God is administering His grace! Accept His free offer by faith (in His Son) today. After you leave this life it will be too late.

 :'(

GOD INVITES YOU TO TRUST HIS SON AND BE SAVED!

Don’t Delay – No Time to Lose!

II Corinthians 6:2 – "For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succored thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation."

You are privileged to live in a dispensation where God is administering His grace! Accept His free offer by faith (in His Son) today. After you leave this life it will be too late.

Next we will hear how much good Saddam's boys have done, and that they were the best thing since the Boy Scouts, and that the Muslim Extremists are not really Muslim. :-X

Don't these folks realize that they are either directly or indirectly supporting the likes of Saddam and Al Queda with these antics?

There are two things that I see happening. The first is that at least 90% of the world has rejected Christ and has therefore placed themselves directly under the laws of the Old Testament.
The second is that many have forgotten that God has used nations many times to deal with other nations. How many times did He use them to deal with Israel? I also don't think that He is finished dealing with America. We still have abortion on demand going on. We still have homosexual groups pushing their agenda on America. And we still have groups like the ACLU pushing the anti-god agenda. All it takes is for the Christian community to lay down and do nothing. Why do you think that God uses Christians that are willing to speak out against such things. We are setting here debating the issues of right and wrong and often times turning our backs on the things that are going on and pretending that they are not happening. How many of us would stand on a railroad track with a train coming right at us thinking that all we have to do is close our eyes and all will be ok?

Jesus said:  Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.  1Jo 3:15
Murder is a condition of the heart. A man or woman fighting as a soldier, or accidently killing someone are not murdering,  unless there is hatred in the heart.
Can you say there is no one you hate?
The condition of our hearts is what will matter to God.

As a general point, I absolurely reject the notion that people who speak out against the war in Iraq are somehow supporting Al-Queda.  This is the kind of easy to understand political pablum that the Bush campaign was so eager to sling at any opponent.  Simply call them unpatriotic, in a hyper-sensitive time, and everyone will condem them.  Its simple-minded to a disgusting degree.  Furthermore, to even imply that God is working through the U.S. military in order to deal with an enemy of Israel is nauseating.  In order to beleive that, one would have to close one's eyes to every action and motive of Cheney, Rumsfeld, Pearle and Wolfowitz; Ignore the fact that the initial reason for going to war was an absolute lie, and finaly, somehow come to the conclusion that God thought he could use a little more oil.  Using the Bble to justify one's warring ways is a perfect example of how easy it has become to use the holy scripture when it is convenient to do so, and tailor it a little if need be.  To beleive that W. is acting with the will of God, is to live in a sick delusion.  It is the same sort of delusion that has justified thousands of evil actions over the centuries, by many world religions.  Killing another human being while wearing a cross around your neck, or proclaiming that it is in the name of God, or for the protection of Israel does not make it God's work.  If God is to judge us all, I'm comfortable with the positions I've taken.

**THANK YOU**!!!!!!

Can you honestly tell me that there aren't soldiers fighting in Iraq who don't have hate for the enemy in THEIR heart?

Quit trying to turn this into something it's not.  This about how OFTEN I've read people here condemn the killing of American babies but NOT condemn the killing of foreign babies.  A weak Christian cannot apply their beliefs equally across the world, but instead rely on the rhetorical trickery of Satan to weasle their way out of their condoning of evil.

 Let's all slow down before heads start to pop off.

 
 First of all Thomas, I never said America was "God's army"

If you read your Bible Thomas, you will see that God uses nations (Godless and God fearing) to fulfill His will. Babylon conquered Israel and took the Jews into captivity - does that mean Babylon was God's army? Likewise for the Egyptians, Assyrians etc.

 

 So, you have irrefutable proof that there was no W.M.D. pre -war in Iraq do you? Also, the last time I checked the Iraqi's were in control of their own oil, but hey, don't let little details like that get in the way of your diatribe.

 I guess you missed the Washington Post article last week which reported that Russian Special Forces were in Iraq, and specifically at the Al-Qa Qaa weapons depot immediately prior to the war. There is good evidence which suggests that weapons were in fact shipped out of Iraq and into Syria via huge a convoy of military trucks. Military and government officials have been trying to tell the public this ever since the beginning of the war, but the democrats would have non of it. I personally viewed satellite video of a large military convoy leaving Iraq and entering Syria just weeks before the war.

 Let's assume for arguments sake that there were no W.M.D. in Iraq, even though he (Saddam) used such weapons against Iran and even his own population.
 The known facts are that for twelve years Saddam ignored U.N. security council sanctions of complete disclosure of weapons and technology, including complete details of any weapons which were destroyed, dismantled, or otherwise disposed of. Saddam continuously delayed and diverted the weapons inspectors for twelve years.

Saddam was a brutal dictator who murdered hundreds of thousands of his own people.

Saddam was building nuclear weaponry, which he denied until the Israeli air-force wiped out his nuclear facilities.


Saddam launched and unprovoked attack on Kuwait and occupied that nation.

Saddam launched scud missiles into populated cities in Israel.

Saddam welcomed and cared for known al-Qaeda operatives.

Saddam attempted to assassinate a president of the United States.

Saddam stole billions of dollars of oil for food and medicine money from his own people with help from his friends - Germany - France - and Russia.

Saddam's sons were the epitome of evil - do you care about the babies they killed and tortured?

 Saddam was warned many times, and even attacked by a Democratic government (Clinton) for not abiding by the security council orders. I wonder if you care about the "babies" who no doubt were killed when Clinton attacked?
Still, Saddam refused to comply.

 If we don't follow up on threats of retaliation, the worlds dictators would soon become even more emboldened to commit crimes against humanity. I think twelve years was showing great patience and restraint, don't you?



   

 Who has used the Bible to justify war on this forum? The reality of the world we live in, demands that we must fight wars from time to time. This is a Biblical reality also, however, that does not add up to "Using the Bible to justify one's warring ways" Try to remember who attacked who first my friends.

  You don't seem to be aware of the "new enemy" We no longer face masses of armies on a battlefield. We no longer draw battle lines on the world map. We are up against a "ghost" army, where the enemy strikes with cars loaded with bombs, or aircraft aimed at civilian buildings. Mass murderers who take great joy at killing men, women, and children. They hide among the general population. We are pretty much forced into a strike first position.

 If you believe these terrorists are motivated by the "blood thirsty" evil Americans, then you are a fool. Sure, that's what the recruits are indoctrinated with. Images of the "Great Satan" with their "unprovoked" attacks on Islam.

 The real reason these terrorists attack is that they are fighting for territory, so they can set up their brutal radical Islamist states. I guess you condone the Taliban lifestyle...after-all, it's not your wives/sisters/daughters/husbands/sons/brothers/mothers/and fathers who have to live under such terror is it? It's ok, because we live free, safe and rich.




 And you accuse others of being "simple minded"

 Stop trying to make Christians out to be blood thirsty radicals. No one likes war, we pray for the day when war will be wiped out of memory. The reality is that while we are here on this planet, we will fight wars, and innocent people will die. May God guide our leaders to be merciful when warranted and strong when required. Our leaders make decisions that you would run from. We are are strong, blessed nation (not perfect) The reason we are not speaking German, or praying to Allah five times a day, is because there are people who make tough decisions - people who take heat from those who haven't any clue as to how the world works, and at the end of the day, we are safe, free, and blessed.

 Your guy lost - live with it.


Bronzesnake

Bronzesnake,

Amen.

Thank you and God bless you.

Brothers and Sisters,

I'm sure that you've noticed, but we have a gang of trolls with us.

OR, would that be a herd of trolls?

They usually self-destruct pretty quickly. In the meantime, don't let them gore you with their horns.

Love In Christ,
Tom

I'll second that Amen!  


Can anyone say abrakadabra?

I make a motion that we form a committee of three (guess who?) and take up a collection to send them to Fallujah to negotiate with Zarqawi and al Sadr.  That should at least eliminate 90%+ of the civilian deaths that are occurring over there, or........  ;D

Bronzsnake:

what does "your guy lost" mean?

I don't understand that.  Jesus hasn't lost has he?  God hasn't lost has he?

Shouldn't we all be advocating for peace, rather than justifying war?

Ooooooh, I hope I didn't just break a rule by advocating for peace.

I remember seeing video of some of the atrocities that where taking place in Iraq. I'm sure that most Americans saw this same video. The WMD argument that the Democrats keep throwing out there is really no argument at all. This non-since that God does not use people or nations to accomplish His will is also just that, non-since. As I said, most of the world has rejected Christ and has therefore chosen to place itself under Old Testament law. The President went to the UN many times to get them and the world to join with us in stopping Hussein and his henchmen. The reason for the UN's refusal and the refusal of France and other nations to join with us was simple. They would just as soon see Hussein kill his own people and continue giving the UN and it's cronies billions of dollars than do something to stop it. So when you go blaming the President for this war you might want to stop listening to the liberal press that is still whining over Kerry's loose. I don't know any Christian that is not appalled at the loose of life on both sides of this war. I do know that there where many Christians that turned their backs when Hitler did what he did. So you tell me. Which is worse, The one committing the atrocities or the one closing his or her eyes to the atrocities. I don't think God sees any difference.

Bronzesnake,

Thank you for the history lesson of regarding the misgivings of Saddam.  In giving it though, I think you fell into the group to which I was reffering.  At no time did I say that I supported the actions of the Husein regime.  To do so would be madness.  It seems to be a pretty typical republican reaction to, at this stage of the game, comment on all of the horrors committed in Iraq.  This I fear is not because anyone in the U.S. administration cares about the Kurds, but because they are now gropping for new reasoning, having found no WMD's.  It is true that Saddam has used such wepons in the past, but they were provided to him by the American government. (Who incidently also sold wepons to Iran in the same war)  I also found your use of the U.N. argument to be contrary to many on your other posts.  It seems that you would act in defyance of the U.N. given any opportunity, yet you hold Saddam to a higher standard of global citezenship.  Make no mistake, the war in Iraq is not about saving the lives of the noble Iraqi, it is not about freedom, it does not make you any safer, and it is certainly not condoned by any God that I know.  Ofcourse, you are free and welcome to disagree, just don't tell me that I hold the opinions I do, because  I'm uninformed.  

As per the comments by our noble moderator, I find it odd that I would be called a troll, or have it implied that my views on this particular issue are unwelcome in some way.  I was not aware that being a good Christian meant automatic support for the War in Iraq. I hold my views on this matter because I beleive that killing innocent people is wrong, particularily when the reason behind their deaths is so ambiguous.

How do you propose advocating peace with folks who enjoy cutting off the heads of peacful individuals?

My prayers are with the young men and women who are fighting for peace this very evening.   May God grant them saftey and victory as they fight for our nation and Iraq's

Grace and Peace!

How do you propose advocating peace with folks who enjoy cutting off the heads of peacful individuals?

The same way the international community tries to advocate for peace with a president who enjoys invading sovreign nations.

I would however like to join you in your prayer for the brave men and women risking thier lives for their country.  May God watch over them.

I don't think Veto's will mean too much to these types of people.  ;)    I would however love to see your evidence that the president enjoys invading nations.

Grace and Peace!

Irregardless of what you may believe the governments real reason was/is for the war in Iraq anyone that is a Christian should be elated that a tyrant such as Saddam Hussein is no longer in a position to commit the atrocities that he did. He was a real threat to the security of world peace.

Some people think to have peace means to just lay down your weapons and not fight or that they can talk their way out of war.

FREEDOM IS NOT FREE

I was commenting on your use of the word "enjoying", as I hardly think that the individuals of whom you speak "enjoy" cutting heads off.

hmmm...the responses of the men here were so well written I  need not add to them...other than ... It would seem you know little about God, past, present or future,  as is often the case in those who would presume to judge what God has ordained.
Take a peek at a Revelation from Gods Word: "And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war."  
The wars are not over yet, but thank God in the final battle good is once and for all  victor over evil!

Actually, I believe it was your word, and its one thing to invade an unconpliant defiant nation than it is to cut off the head of someone minding their own business.   ::)

You are more diluded than I thought you were.

Tim,

Not to labour a point, but you certainly used the term "enjoy" before I did.  that is why I wrote my post.  I don't beleive that the Iraqi militants who are doing the decapitating enjoy it anymore than a U.S. marine enjoys killing an Iraqi civilian.  Also, I feel that this is where we need to be be clear.  Rightly or wrongly, the individuals fighting in Iraq are reacting in a manner that I'm sure you all would, if an Islamic fundamentalist nation invaded the U.S.  George W. made the enormous error of calling this fight a Crusade.  Now, that got huge media play all across the Arab world. Now, they are reacting to the invasion of their homeland by who they see as a Christian fundamentalist.  Unfortunately, when fundamentalism meets fundamentalism, very little good can come of it quickly.  I'm sure some of you hard-linners will jump at the opportunity to throw out your standard knee-jerk reactions, and suggest that I love terrorists.  I only hope others see just how silly such a claim is.  Pastor Roger kindly informed me that Freedom isn't free, a statement which I whole-heartedly applaud.  But I simply cannot buy the idea that this war somehow protects my freedom.
 
On another note, I would recomend that Darwinatridge take a look at any U.N. fact book before claiming that it elected not to go to war, because Iraq pays it "Billions of dollars".  This is utterly false.

I stand corrected  :D


I don't believe this to be true.   It takes pure hatred and cowardism to cut off the head of person who is bound and defensless.   U.S. marines did not advance one step into Iraq without fair warning....months of it!.   Whether you want to admit it or not, these two scenarios are very different.   I say shame on you for even trying to make that comparison.


I certainly would not be kidnapping folks to cut their heads off.   Even in your hypothetical.....Would you?


I guess some people never will  :-\

Grace and Peace!

There are those that say that God had no hand in establishing America as a nation. I disagree. There are those that say that God had no hand in dealing with Germany. I disagree. There are those that say that God had no hand in establishing Israel as a nation again. I strongly disagree. And you are right. I have the right to disagree with you. After all this is America. Not Iraq where you could be beheaded for disagreeing. As for the UN maybe you should look at the record for yourself. The record is very clear. I will agree with you on one point. America did help establish the government that Hussein brutally ran for years. And for years America turned its back on the people of Iraq. But God never turned His. Again I ask. Which is worse, the one the does the brutalizing or the one that closes his eyes to the brutalizing?

September 20th regarding CAIRO, EGYPT - A video posted Monday on a Web site showed the beheading of a man identified as American hostage Eugene Armstrong

A quote from terrorist who enjoy this activity!!!!!!


The militant on the video called President Bush "a dog" and addressed him, saying, "Now, you have people who love death just like you love life. Killing for the sake of God is their best wish, getting to your soldiers and allies are their happiest moments, and cutting the heads of the criminal infidels is implementing the orders of our lord."

He says they love it, and it is their happiest moment!

Note the contrast he makes between us and them.  ""people who love death just like you love life""!   I wont debate if you insist, but I will certainly agree to disagree.  

If you are interested in the source link I will provide via PM, as the whole text is rather graphic.  Image wise, the article is tame however.

Grace and Peace!

AMEN Pastor Roger, as anyone who has served in the mitilary knows.........
[size=10]FREEDOM IS NOT FREE[/size]

Having posted quotes from terrorist in my previous post...lets return to yours.


Again I will ask,

How do you propose advocating peace with folks who enjoy cutting off the heads of peacful individuals?


Answer the question this time if you can.   I am all ears!!!

Grace and Peace!

Amen, Dreamweaver. Even as Christians also know, Freedom Is Not Free. Jesus Christ paid for our freedom.

AMEN!! Pastor Roger...... Praise God for Jesus, to wash away our sins, with his sacrifice, upon the cross.

Just one? okay how about, several.

It wasn't until Augustine addressed the subject around 400 A.D. that Christians realized sometimes the way to peace required taking the road to war. Augustine said, "Peace is not sought in order to provide war, but war is waged in order to attain peace." And with that, Augustine began laying the foundation for what we know today as the principles for Just War, which states:

1. JUST WAR can only be waged by legitimate authorities.
2. JUST WAR must exhaust all non-violent options first.
3. JUST WAR must have a reasonable chance to succeed.
4. JUST WAR must be fought with right intentions.
5. JUST WAR must discriminate between combative enemies and non-combative civilians (Death of civilians is considered justifiable only if unavoidable).
6. JUST WAR's ultimate goal should be to re-establish peace.

Augustine's rationale for war was nothing new. It was simply an elaboration of what the Bible had said all along, and what Christians had missed for 400 years.

As Christians is it our duty to forgive, to turn the other cheek, to love our enemies? Yes, it is! These verses lay out the Christian's responsibility before God. This is how we, as Christians, are to live, but we must understand that the same Bible that teaches us to love our enemies also teaches that God has told His people to go to war on many occasions.
God and War

Joshua 5:1  So it was, when all the kings of the Amorites who were on the west side of the Jordan, and all the kings of the Canaanites who were by the sea, heard that the LORD had dried up the waters of the Jordan from before the children of Israel until we had crossed over, that their heart melted; and there was no spirit in them any longer because of the children of Israel.

These foreign kings were scared to death of Israel and for good reason.

Joshua 6:1-2  Now Jericho was securely shut up because of the children of Israel; none went out, and none came in. 2 And the LORD said to Joshua: "See! I have given Jericho into your hand, its king, and the mighty men of valor.

God told Joshua to attack the city of Jericho and destroy it.

Joshua 6:20-21  So the people shouted when the priests blew the trumpets. And it happened when the people heard the sound of the trumpet, and the people shouted with a great shout, that the wall fell down flat. Then the people went up into the city, every man straight before him, and they took the city. 21 And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, ox and sheep and donkey, with the edge of the sword.

What did the people of Jericho do to the Israelites? Nothing! Nothing at all. They killed them all because God told them to. God had His reasons. In reading these scriptures would you get the idea that God is against war? Not hardly!

Joshua 8:1-2 Now the LORD said to Joshua: "Do not be afraid, nor be dismayed; take all the people of war with you, and arise, go up to Ai. See, I have given into your hand the king of Ai, his people, his city, and his land. 2 "And you shall do to Ai and its king as you did to Jericho and its king. Only its spoil and its cattle you shall take as booty for yourselves. Lay an ambush for the city behind it."

Joshua 8:25-29 So it was that all who fell that day, both men and women, were twelve thousand; all the people of Ai. 26 For Joshua did not draw back his hand, with which he stretched out the spear, until he had utterly destroyed all the inhabitants of Ai. 27 Only the livestock and the spoil of that city Israel took as booty for themselves, according to the word of the LORD which He had commanded Joshua. 28 So Joshua burned Ai and made it a heap forever, a desolation to this day. 29 And the king of Ai he hanged on a tree until evening. And as soon as the sun was down, Joshua commanded that they should take his corpse down from the tree, cast it at the entrance of the gate of the city, and raise over it a great heap of stones that remains to this day.

Israel, God's people, were involved in war after war:

Joshua 11:19-20 There was not a city that made peace with the children of Israel, except the Hivites, the inhabitants of Gibeon. All the others they took in battle. 20 For it was of the LORD to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that He might utterly destroy them, and that they might receive no mercy, but that He might destroy them, as the LORD had commanded Moses.

These verses tells us that God hardened the hearts of these people so they would go to war with Israel, because He wanted to destroy them. In going to war, Israel was carrying out the will of God.

2 Samuel 5:18-25 The Philistines also went and deployed themselves in the Valley of Rephaim. 19 So David inquired of the LORD, saying, "Shall I go up against the Philistines? Will You deliver them into my hand?" And the LORD said to David, "Go up, for I will doubtless deliver the Philistines into your hand." 20 So David went to Baal Perazim, and David defeated them there; and he said, "The LORD has broken through my enemies before me, like a breakthrough of water." Therefore he called the name of that place Baal Perazim. 21 And they left their images there, and David and his men carried them away. 22 Then the Philistines went up once again and deployed themselves in the Valley of Rephaim. 23 Therefore David inquired of the LORD, and He said, "You shall not go up; circle around behind them, and come upon them in front of the mulberry trees. 24 "And it shall be, when you hear the sound of marching in the tops of the mulberry trees, then you shall advance quickly. For then the LORD will go out before you to strike the camp of the Philistines." 25 And David did so, as the LORD commanded him; and he drove back the Philistines from Geba as far as Gezer.  

Notice here that David asks God if he should go to war, and God tells him to go and guaranties his victory. Notice also that God even gives David a battle strategy.

Believers, God told David to go to war.

I rest my case........
DW ;D

 Ya...I was referring to Jesus. Very clever response my friend. ::)

 Of course we should be advocating for peace. Perhaps you should e-mail the terrorists and state your position. Be sure to give them your name and address in case they should like to sit down in person over a steaming cup of tea and some nice muffins. I'm convinced that you could talk sense into their heads, I mean they are reasonable people...right?

 By the way, we aren't trying to justify this war...it's a just war, unless you happen to be in the middle of beheading an innocent civilian.

Bronzesnake

 


 What do you think was the motivation for Saddam to comply with the U.N. Security Council starting twelve years prior to this war? What did the U.N. Security Council use as a threat to try and get Saddam to comply?
 What's that you say? Oh, they threatened him with war...how long was Saddam in non-compliance?...pardon me, I didn't hear...oh, twelve years!

 I wonder why Saddam was so bold in the face of the threat of war, what with so many people making such scathing statements as..."At no time did I say that I supported the actions of the Husein regime."

 Saddam must have been terrified when he heard rumblings such as... "We've had enough! This calls for...more discussion!"
 Who's being hypocritical here my friend?


   

 Have you been living in a cave for fourteen years?


 

 The weapons were there, otherwise please explain why Saddam would allow himself to be attacked and hunted down like a dog. All he had to do was show full disclosure, and he would still be in power today. Does this really make sense to you??? Do you honestly expect any intelligent human being to believe Saddam gambled his country, his sons,  his power and freedom on a bluff??? HELLO? ANYONE HOME?



 Yes, the Americans did supply some weapons to Saddam in order to keep what was a far greater threat at the time at bay. Where did the weapons go? You don't seem to know that the Russians, French and Germans sold many, many more weapons to Iraq than did America. In any case, Saddam was being pretty much left alone until he went nuts and attacked Kuwait.


 

 Please point out any such contradictions.

 As for the rest of that statement, it's ludicrous. The U.N. Security Council was unanimous in their assertion that Saddam did indeed have W.M.D. and the threat of war was clearly stated and sanctioned. The problem was that when it came time to back up the threat (after twelve years of non compliance) certain dictatorial Arab regimes together with Russia, France and Germany (all three were found out to be skimming billions off the oil for food and medicine) suddenly backed out.


   


 No, it's not specifically about saving the Iraqi people, but that is part of the justification. It is about freedom, and it certainly does make us safer. Afghanistan just held democratic elections and elected their first democratically elected president - which scenario do you think makes the rest of the region, and the world safer - Afghanistan pre-war under Taliban rule, and infested with terrorist training camps, or now? be honest. Iraq will hold their democratic elections in January. There will be two democratic countries as of January 2005, where once there were two American hating dictatorships. It is highly disingenuous for you, or anyone to say..."it certainly doesn't make us safer"


 I believe the moderator was referring to the person who started this topic with "Why don't we call for the president to stop killing IRAQI babies?"

 Look, killing innocent people is wrong, no sane person would argue that. Innocent people get killed in wartime, it's a very sad and troubling fact of war. We wish we didn't have to go to war - the Americans and allies do not purposefully attack innocent people - the enemy does. That is why we are at war. The fact of the matter is that if we just sat back and did nothing after 911 - if we attempted to negotiate with the terrorists, we would be scraping up our loved ones from the streets of America today. These "people" do not care about peace, they do not want to negotiate. Don't you get it? They want to take over the Middle East - seize the oil - use the riches from oil to build nuclear and bio weaponry so they can black-mail the rest of the world and set up their fanatical Islamic dictatorial regimes. WAKE UP! STOP BLAMING YOUR OWN COUNTRY FOR DEFENDING YOUR LIVES - AMERICA IS NOT EVIL, THE TERRORISTS ARE EVIL! HELLO AGAIN...ANYONE HOME?!! Do you not realize the terrorists who would hack off your loved ones heads, love it when they hear people condemning America? They laugh loudest when Americans condemn America.
 You've convinced yourselves that Iraq was just an innocent country attacked for no good reason. Think about why Saddam would allow this to happen, when all he had to do was say "OK, I was bluffing...I had weapons, but I don't anymore and here's where they went" He was told that he could keep power if he did this small thing, and yet he did not, and at what cost? Why would he do such a thing? Please answer that.

Bronzesnake

Brothers and Sisters,

I must stand corrected about there being trolls with us.


That would be several levels below a beginning troll in terms of skill and intelligence.

These twits are acting like Christians, but they are not even close - RATHER THE OPPOSITE!

Please stay tuned for a:


Thanks for your patience while I gathered the proper information.

Love In Christ,
Tom

;D

It's always saddening to me to see how missinformed some people are.  The numbers given of "civilian" deaths is pretty inacurrate.  I've seen some people claiming as much as 200,000 or more and this was last year.  Now it's back down to 100,000.  It's also intersting to see how uber pacifists claim US soldiers are killing babies even when it was a suicide bombing that killed them.  The argument is that it is our fault for being there.  I REALLY love the mentions of this being a war for oil and monetary gain.  I must have missed were all that money is coming from.  Oh yeah were is all that cheap oil.   ::)

I also enjoy  ::) people who think the pope the dali lama etc are the most intelligent people on earth.  Yes, those opposed to Christ are most deffinately the most intelligent poeple on earth.   ???

As a general point of oreder, I should be understood that the Dali Lama does not oppose Christ.  I don't imagine you've ever read any of his stuff, nor would I excpect you to, but most of his writing deals with the acceptability of many world religions.  Infact, he thinks that Christianity is pretty fantastic.   Is it against forum rules to say that he is a pretty neat guy?

Actually as a General point of order he is most assuredly opposed to Christ.  Why thomas2004 asks of this small minded fundy from philly?

Quite simply, because you are either for or against Jesus Christ.  There is no in between.  To be for the LORD one must have a saving faith in Jesus Christ and be washed in the blood of the Lamb.

You are opposed to the Christ even if you think, Jesus was a neat guy, or had some good things to say, or "have no problem" with Him.  If you do not believe in Jesus Christ as your personal LORD and Savior then you are opposed to Him.  That's the way it is.

There is no reincarnation and the whole concept of the dalai lama is a false religion.  This is a good example of that.


This is completely contrary to scripture and thus, the LORD.

 Nice work!

 How often do we hear "christians" say such foolish things as ... "most of his writing deals with the acceptability of many world religions." in a context which insinuates that as long as we believe in "anything religious" we will get to Heaven. Those who do not believe in Jesus will not go to Heaven - those who would have us believe in any other "god" are going to Hell. This is not my "belief" it comes straight from Jesus Christ. So if you don't like it, take it up with Him.

 Bronzesnake

Amen bronzesnake. Good job on rebuking the twits.  ;D

Brothers and Sisters,

We've been talking to a group of trolls who pre-planned to come here, act like Christians, stir things up, and go back to a larger mob to share their Christian hunting exploits.

We were a subject of much laughter, mocking, and labeling with various terms of cursing and filth. The game was to act like Christians, push our buttons, play with us, and report back to a larger mob.

11 have been banned - 9 or more belonging to the same mob. The mob probably numbers over 200.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Brothers and Sister,
Lets not degrade to the point that Satan is using us to turn on one another. We've seen enough degrading going on over the last several months. This forum is about expressing our views and it is clear that we all have our own viewpoints. I went to bed last night after reading a posting from xjesusrocksx in which he expressed some very hard words. He is certainly entitled to his viewpoint. That was what this election was all about. Although many of us disagree with him, he is certainly entitled to express his views as long as they do not become vulgar. I believe that as Christians we all need to take a stand against the evil that is happening in the world. To me it is just as appalling to turn your back on those that commit such atrocities as it is to commit these atrocities. We have the right to debate these issues but not the right to allow Satan to use these issues for his purpose. I believe that the UN is an organization that Satan has been using to advance his purpose and there is more than enough evidence to prove that. And I believe that America is no longer the Christian nation that it claims to be. But I also believe that whether this nation wants to claim God as it's god or not, God will use this nation to accomplish His purpose. God is the one in control and He will work things out. We are to be His tools to not only spread His word but to also take a stand against evil. Does this mean that the world is going to just fall in line behind us? No it does not. Satan will continue to us to world to separate us from God as much as he can. I applaud those that will stand up against this evil. I also pray for those that will not. Jesus said in the Book of Revelations that there would be no fence walkers in the end times. And we a rapidly approaching His return. Jesus also said in the Book of Matthew that there would be wars and rumors of wars. What is going on is no surprise to Him. I know that He is crying over the loss of life that is happening. But I also know that He cries when we turn our backs on any atrocity. We are all passionate about our beliefs. And Satan is just as passionate in his belief that he does not want God to win this war for our souls. Much of the world has sided with him. He will attempt to destroy the world by turning it against its self. It is very unfortunate that much of the world has made the choice to follow him instead of excepting Gods plan for our salvation. But the harsh reality is that most will reject Gods plan. This does not mean that we are to give up fighting for what is right. Sometimes this means we are to pray. And unfortunately sometimes this means that we are to stand up against such tyrants as Hussein.

Heylo. Just wanted to throw my two cents in again about the troll situation. :) There were a few on here that i'd suspected as being trolls, but i just pray for them. and Tom...i have something i want to discuss with you in PM or E-mail sometime man...about the other name you called the trolls. I say go get them, but do so in prayer if you havn't already. lol. you said we were the subject of laughter and mockery. Let them continue to laugh at us, for their reward is here on earth, ours is in Heaven. Let's count it as a blessing because even if they are laughing at us and mocking us...they won't mock God, and if they have even read 1% of the threads on this site, they will not stand unaccountable in front of God Almighty. So we've done our job. The Gospel has and will continue to be presented on this site, and those who read it will be held responsible for their actions. and they will be without excuse. So as for the trolls. Go git them, but count it as a blessing that they did that to us. We'll continue on in the Spirit of God and continue to discuss Christian matters and doctrine. :) I'm done with my two cents for now. And for the trolls...those that are still here...you will be held accountable for your actions. You will not have an excuse and you will stand before the Almighty. So the question I pose is this: Eternity? Smoking or non? God Bless

In His Service,
Joshua

Amen Darwinatridge,

Brother, that was an excellent and timely post. As Christians, we should expect to be attacked with greater frequency and intensity. If this is the end times, and I think it is, Christians will most certainly become objects to curse and mock. Eventually, Christians will also be physically attacked or worse. Only God knows how bad things will get before Jesus comes to take us home.

I simply pray that God gives us strength to stand up and keep doing His work until His appointed time.

Love In Christ,
Tom  

Amen Brother Joshua,

You are 100% correct. The Gospel of the Grace of God is never wasted. We must keep giving the Good News, even if we are spit on during the attempt.

I do have several burdens on my heart about sharing the Gospel. I give thanks for extremely strong young Christians who are grounded firmly in His Word. Brother, you come to mind when I think about this issue. I'm not worried about the devil being able to confuse you or turn you away from Jesus. You are not a babe in Christ, but many are. I'm burdened about the babes in Christ or those who are about to make a decision for Christ that the devil will get at them, even here on Christians Unite. I'm not thinking about our little differences that all Christians have in doctrine, rather doctrine that is not of Christ at all. I know that we have many sweet Christians here who pray about this and try really hard to make the Gospel of the Grace of God stand out as a beacon for the world to see. I am absolutely positive that God is working here, and God is using our sweet Christians here to reach the lost. I'm also positive that many babes in Christ are growing stronger because of the work being done here.

This is simply another good time to thank all of the Christians here who post the Gospel of the Grace of God. It's also a good time to give thanks for the prayer here, the lifting up of each other in times of trial and illness, and the building up of each other in Christ. All of the glory and praise goes to God.


Brothers and Sisters, it makes me very happy to say that I love you. I give thanks that God us using us.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Brothers, Christians are already being persecuted throughout this world. We have been very fortunate to be in the mercy of God here in America where we still have mans laws that protect us and these freedoms.

I do agree that these freedoms are threatened and are being taken from us.

There is a multi-denominational request for an International Day of Prayer for the Persecuted Church to take place on Nov 14th this year.

For more information on this I provide the following links.

http://www.persecutedchurch.org/index.cfm

http://www.idop.org/

 

In the one short day that this thread has been "on the air", the following has happened to your brothers and sisters in Christ somewhere in the world.

40 have been murdered for their faith.

200 have been imprisoned.

455 have been beaten.

 :'(

Dude!  When did you become a non-religious death hog?   ;D  Okokokokok...you were signing your post.  But it just seemed awful humorous seeing your name at the bottom of the list!   :D

Yupyup!

I'll say Tom's moniker for them was far less lacking in sanctification than mine!  :D  But then, I'm being changed.  Takes time, but God still faithfully shows us where the "buttons" we have are, and changes their functions daily.   :)

Evangelist,

Brother, can I assume correctly these numbers are missionaries, those feeding the hungry, and those providing medical attention to the dying?

I have seen several news spots about feelings of great loss in areas where people laboring for those in need were killed. I guess the color, the nationality, or the religious affiliation of the worker was the only concern, and the killers thought nothing about their own people starving and dying. I sometimes wonder if these killings are done because the warlords don't want the people to like or appreciate those who are trying to help them. It's really hard to make sense of.

I do have many missionaries in my family serving in dangerous places, and the local people have saved them from being killed numerous times. They have their own children with them, and they simply trust that God's will be done. They've tried to explain it to me numerous times, and I still don't understand it. I understand the trust in God - I just don't understand why anyone would wish to harm someone trying to help the people of the killers. Thinking they are spies or US agents of some sort would seem to be the only logic involved. The other side of the coin involves thinking that they actually want to see their own people starve and die.

Brother Hank, I feel certain that God will send more workers and missionaries to take the place of those who have fallen. We can and should pray for them. It's horrible to think that many thousands of desperate people depend on help for survival, and then the helpers are killed or beaten.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Tom, I would have to say in concerning those that are babes in Christ that He will keep them.  The LORD is not willing that any should perish, and that if we are in His hand no one can pluck us from it.

I truly believe that God will not let His children be taken away from Him because it is in His word.  IF one has truly given themselves to Jesus they will stay though persecution comes.

I don't mean to say I'm not worried about those young and insecure in the faith but in the end only God does anything good.

Tom, no, they aren't. As a matter of fact, there are only a few throughout a given year that fall into that category, although it generally makes the news.

The vast majority, by far, are the believers in a given area that have converted, and are then persecuted by either their neighbors or the government.

Like "Josi". A Phillipino, converted from Islam last year, shot to death during a prayer meeting last month.

Or Soong...arrested by the DPRK on his 10th trip into NK with a load of bibles for some underground churches....hung by the heels from a bridge, it took him 5 days to die.

Or the twelve members of an "unauthorized" church in China...held in a prison for 8 months, they were marched into a sports stadium in front of several thousand people, and executed with a shot to the head for "fomenting discord with the People's government and preaching religion."  The execution took place because they could not be "re-habilitated" (would not renounce Christ).

Or the Montagnards of Vietnam....almost 100% Christian, they are being systematically exterminated, village by village.

I would have believed an even higher number than those that you gave especially with the situation in Nigeria, Iran, Saudi Arabia and other such countries today.

Even here in the U.S. there is an increase of such activity against Christians since the election although it is not as widespread as it is in those other countries.

Saved_4ever,

Thanks brother. You are obviously right about no power in Heaven or Earth can pluck a child out of the might Hands of Jesus.

Our part is much more than just doing the best that we can. We can and should pray that God guides us, gives us strength, and uses us according to His Will. I give thanks that the end result and real power is in God, and always has been. We fail pretty often, but God never fails, and we can pray that He directs our feeble efforts. Let me quickly say that I know that I fail often, too often. However, I still feel led to keep trying.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Brother Hank,

I didn't know about this, and it makes me very sad. This is a stark reminder that we shouldn't take our freedom to worship for granted. There are a lot of things wrong with America, but there are also a lot of good things that we really don't appreciate. Innocent people being killed because of their belief in Jesus is yet another sign that the end of this age might be near.

When we open our Bibles and worship our Saviour, we should be remembering those who die for what we take for granted. Here we are, safe and secure, being able to study and worship in peace. This is yet another Gift and Blessing we don't deserve.

Love In Christ,
Tom

I know that this is kind of late in the game to be getting into this thread, but here goes.

It seems to me that most everyone here in opposition to the Iraqi war has forgotten that Saddam Hussein committed one of the largest genocides in human history.  He has brutally murdered millions of Kurds and of his fellow Iraqis.  This war was not fought for monetary gain or for political gain or anything of the sort.  You underestimate our president.  I challenge you to try and find some letters from soldiers that are in Iraq and read them, or listen to them (talk radio is a good place for this).  The men and women bravely serving this country are very optimistic and are told each day by Iraqi civilians that their efforts are greatly appreciated.  The media, of course, does not tell you these things because they want you to hate Bush.  I heard a letter from a soldier in Iraq where he talked about attending a church service at his military base in Baghdad and he was writing home to tell his family that "God is in this place."  amen.

Well said Wes, course you have to remember. That the media, is also racial. They only give the news they think, people want to hear. They ignore what is important, news, good or bad.

You are so right, Wes. It was not monetary gain. We get less than 1% of our oil from Iraq. Hardly enough to even consider. It had nothing to do with political gain because wars are never "popular". Saddam Hussein was a real and serious threat to world peace and so were his sons. He refused to back down. At the time of the start of the war he was working towards getting nuclear capability through the French and other such countries.

Bump

Prevent the evil that could prevail within thyself and thee will have done well. Worry not for the evil in others, but make your sphere of conciousness without sin. That is all one can do, in the midst of an evil world, then a light will shine from your inner self out into the darkness and perhaps show another the way up out of this muck known as the way of man and into the way, the truth and the life which is Christ Jesus.

Pray,
ollie

how many galleons of oil is 1% of the total oil from america?

and somewhere else i read 10%...i'm so confused now  ???

 Right on the nail head fellas.

 There's also the consideration of intelligence and sources. I'm astonished at the amount of people who "demand" the government reveal "everything". The government can not, and should not do anything so radically foolish as that. Most people don't seem to understand how the intelligence world operates to keep us all safe and sound. If the government revealed all their secrets, there would be many, many dead people - people who are essential in intelligence gathering all over the globe - secret agents and operatives would quickly be exposed and hunted down. Immediately following that, our countries would be at extreme risk of imminent attack, and we wouldn't even have a clue.

 Bronzesnake

Amen, Bronzesnake.

While in the Navy I worked in communications. Many intelligence items passed through my work space. Only an inkling of what the President has to deal with but enough to give me an idea of what you are saying as being the absolute truth. It falls back to an old saying "the need to know".

If government secrets were public knowledge incidents like 9/11 would be common place and miniscule in comparison to what would be going on.

Since we are on the subject, why don't we call on Muslim Militants to stop killing Christian babies?

 We are...at the moment - in Falluja.

Bronzesnake

Ollie –
The depth of your prose did not go unnoticed.
Matthew 7:3
God Bless,
JN

JudgeNot!!!!

What is this....a sneak attack post?   ;D   Feel free to visit us MORE often (hint hint....lol)   We sure do miss you around here dude!

Grace and Peace!

I am against the war personally, because it has clearly destabilized the middle east during an optimum time for peace (Arafat's Death).  As far as Israel/Palestine goes, I am not on either side, because in my opinion they both have a right to be there.  I think Jesus, God, Mohammed and Allah would be happiest if the Israelis and Palestinians shared the land, and stopped the needless killing, however you guys may disagree with me on that one.

I am not a fan of Mr. Bush, although be noted I am not an American.  When the war started I was for it, but from what I know now, I do not see how anyone can not admit it was a grave mistake.  For your information Saddam attacked the Kurds in 1988 when George HW Bush, was in the middle of his presidency.  The idea that we went to war to avenge the Kurds is quite frankly incorrect.  We went because we thought Al Quaeda was linked with Saddam, and we thought they had WMD's, of course neither are true.  However, I am glad Saddam is out, even though I do not think it was worth the price of 100'000 iraqi lives and 1300ish US lives.  The only thing left is stabilizing Iraq, and continuing the fight against terrorist networks.

Silver,

xjesusrocksx, keanon, and coptic, were trolls, trouble makers who are now gone.


AMEN brother

I will play devil's advocate.  The fact is, the rest of the world, Canada, EU, Arab Countries, you name it despises the United States.  Obviously America is a prosperous country, however if the Kerry v Bush election was worldwide, Kerry would have won with 70% of the vote, you can disagree with me on this but you would be incorrect. http://members1.chello.nl/~a.horlings/doc-polls.html (http://members1.chello.nl/~a.horlings/doc-polls.html)

Additionally, there have been approx 100'000 iraqi civilian casualties, this is not an opinion this is a fact http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1338749,00.html (http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1338749,00.html)

Those guys were trolls, and they weren't christian, but in all fairness, many actual christians oppose the war, and I do not feel that it is unchristian to question wars of this nature.

You seem to be good at making assumptions, so allow me to correct you.

1.) I am not an American, but rather a Canadian

2.) I linked you to a survey, and additionally a survey was conducted in Canada as to who Canadians would vote for, It was some 70% for Kerry.  I have also seen other worldwide polls, which I don't have links to at the moment, however they have all indicated that Kerry is supported overwhelmingly.  A poll was conducted in Britain (your ally) as to what percentage of people approve of America.  There was something like a 14% approval rating.  I realize that you either love or hate Bush, he is very popular in rural America, but keep in mind that the higher educated the census, the more popular John Kerry is.

3. The death toll is approximately 100'000, the Lancet is a respected non partisan academic journal.  The media is critisized for being liberal, however Fox News is owned by the cousin of GWB.

Going into iraq was a mistake, plain and simple.  Intelligence now reports that Iraq had no wmd's nor did they have any desire to attack america.  Remember Saddam is a sunni muslim, whereas Bin Laden, is a shi'ite.  Imagine the catholic vs protestant rivalry multiplied 10 fold, Osama, not only didn't care for Saddam, he outright hated him.  Remember Iraq is enemies with Iran, and Saddam thought that the United States would side with him.

Preemptive strike is a dangerous issue.  Even if Iraq had Al-Quaeda members in it, so do 60 other countries, including Canada.  Destabilizing the middle east, will only gotcha8 more people off and as a result create more terrorists.

Yes because Kerry is a wishy washy person. Wanting to make others happy and not his country. According to facts, Kerry is American. Therefore he should have been putting his country first, not last.

Please get your facts correct, the guardian, has been against the war since day one. So yes they will control what they want, with false information.

the Bible tells us that governments rise and fall at the will of God. therfor the fact that Sadom is no longer in charge in Iraq shows that at least part of what is happening was ordained by God. this does not prove that the action itself was rightous, because there are many ungodly nations that God used to punish other ungodly nations. I tend to think that if you average the lives lost and suffering during the 30 year reign of Saadam, you will find that in the long run the Iraqy people will suffer less and people will die less without him.

The verse is not thou shalt not kill, if your translation says this I advise you to find one that doesnt and discard this one.

The verse states "Thou shalt not MURDER"

If the verse said thou shalt not kill then in the wars that were fought as God's chosen people fought for the Holy Land would have went against his own law.

NO WHERE IN THE BIBLE DOES IT EVEN SUGEST THAT WARS ARE AGAINST GOD.  NT or OT.

Also abortion kills many many more babies each week than Iraqis killed in this entire war.

Love,
Caleb

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%     Keanon, I wonder if someone went out and wrote a bunch of checks in your name,  would it be fair for the people who received those checks to expect you to cover them???    I m sure if that was the case you would feel quite justified in refusing to take responsability.   Many people have done horiffic things in the name of Christ or in most cases just used the name of Christ to gane a possition of power and then did did the evil having nothing to do with Christ( Hitler ) but as with those checks it is hardly fair to lay these evils at the feet of Christianity.   I would ask you to at least read the first four books of the new testament, I am quite sure if you are a reasonable person you will conclude that Christ tought NOTHING that would justify any evil actions.    compare this to Islam and the moslem expantion, if you go back to their founding you will find that Mohamed was violent and encouraged others to be violent.  If you could make this kind of conection to the teachings of Jesus then it might be fair to blame Christianity for the things you mention, you should consider that at the times of some of the events you mention , most people did not own their own Bibles, this left them to trust in their leaders for the truth.   you also dont seem to realise that there is 2000 years of Christian history 1600 of western domination by Christianity..  the universitys , hospitals and Christian charity is unsurpassed by any other group of people in the world.  A strong Christian work ethic(rapidly fading) has made western industry thrive, creating wealth that feeds many impoverished nations.    I hear the kind of retoric you offer from an athiest friend of mine. its ironic that an athiest would even try to use pain and suffering to atack Christianity,    try looking into the deathtoll of communism; Russia, China, Cambodia, Vietnam and others check out the stagering death toll of atheism, abject poverty and opresion are rampant. when you look at it in a resonable perspective. I think you would agree that the best thing for this world, Is more of what Jesus tought!

Wrg,

I reduced the number of "%" on your post to keep from making the message window longer than a browser would handle without scrolling. I hope you don't mind.

Keanon is not a reasonable person at all, and he has been banned. He was a troll, Christian hunter, and the post you replied to was used to bait and hook Christians to have fun with them. He would then go back an report his exploits to a larger group of trolls, and they would all have a good laugh. I think that all of Keanon's group were banned, over 13 of them.

I really doubt that Keanon has a Christian thought other than blasphemy and cursing.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Mark 8:36  For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?

thanks Tom, the %%% were there because Im new at this , and didnt Know how to separate what I quoted from what I wrote.  I have had posts that ran it all together . I think that was at fresh-hope. God Bless

Wrg,

I understand. You'll get used to the forum pretty quickly. If you want a space between the quote and what you type, just hit the return key a couple of times after the quote and start typing.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 73:26  My flesh and my heart faileth: but God is the strength of my heart, and my portion for ever.

"It was not monetary gain."
Have you checked on "Halliburton's" gains and the "taxpayer's" losses from their overcharges?

Call on everyone everywhere to stop all evil. We can begin with ourselves individually. It is the only kingdom we really rule over and influence. Evil culminates only in man and only man can stop it. Each man has to purify himself and stop only seeing it in the other man. Consider thyself.

Thanks.
ollie

War is ugly, no one denies that, however war can be nessesary.  God himself destroyed Sodom, Gemmorha (sp), the empire of Babylon, the first born sons of Egypt.  My point is that war can be rightouse is used to destroy a greater evil.

10 million innocents died because the west was afraid of war with Germany.  War is not always wrong.

Glory be to God

 Hello my friend. I am also Canadian. These type of polls are not indicative of any substantial mass destain for America or Bush. I submit that a great majority of the responses come from people who have their own agenda, and or thoughts on war in general - people who actually support Bush and American foreign policy are not very likely to participate in such loaded polls, thus, the seemingly lob-sided results. I do not trust polls in general. Look at the polling results pre U.S. election and compare to the results...same thing with our own federal election in which polls strongly supported a conservative government, or at least strong gains by the conservatives...neither even came close to reality.

Also, no one knows for certain if there were or were not WMD's in Iraq pre-war, and there is substantial evidence which points to the fact that Russian special forces were in Iraq just prior to the start of the war, at weapon depots, and were seen, via satelite, leaving the country and entering Syria accompanied by a long convoy of military trucks. Now, there is no way to know for certain what was in the trucks, but I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that it wasn't spongecake.

 John Lennon quote..."You say you want a revolution, well you know, don't you know that you can count me out...in"

Bronzesnake

I'm new here so forgive me for bringing back such an old thread. That being said, I just read through all 8 pages and I have to say I am dismayed at what I read here.

First off I will also admit that I am not a Bush supporter but then again I am NOT a Kerry supporter. I voted for Reagan, Clinton and Gore. I refused to take part in the 2004 election based on the character of BOTH candidates.
Now that I have quelled any suspicion of my political agenda I will say that, I am against war in general and while I understand sometimes war is necessary I believe in this day and age it should be used as a last resort. Jesus released us from the covenant of the OT and ushered in the age of grace and peace. Love they enemy, turn the other cheek...

As I said war is sometimes necessary but only if it is a righteous cause. Bush took advantage of our patriotism at a time when we were vulnerable with fear. The administration forced information which was faulty or false in order to pursue some agenda. Before 9/11 this administration claimed that Saddam was no threat to anyone due to the sanctions and the destruction of it's military. This PROVED true as we rolled into Baghdad having faced almost no resistance along the way.

Is the world better off without Saddam in power? Sure, but we could say that about ALL of the leaders of the middle east and about 100 more elsewhere in the world. Some like IRAN and N. KOREA are 1000x more dangerous to the US than Saddam EVER was.
Would a democracy in the middle east be a good thing? Sure but no one with any intimate knowlege of the region thinks this will work out. Why? Because the mind of the middle east is not modern enough to understand the implications and freedoms of a democratic society.

Someone mentioned that this war is a mandate from God... Are you serious? Do you REALLY think God is directing George W. Bush in a holy war against Islam? George, who didn't "find Jesus" until he decided to move into politics where it was benificial?. Come on, Jesus doesn't want us to perpetrate another crusade, he wants us to spread the word and bring the unbelievers to him through love and grace.

I think you should take a good hard look at the POLICIES of the republican party instead of focusing on their position on gay marriage and abortion as this country is in pretty sad shape financially and socially.

Whew!   ;D

Crystal.

 
 I think you have a rather dated and naive opinion of the world we live in today. We no longer fight wars on a military battlefield face to face. We are in a situation now where terrorists have the capability, manpower, resources and resolve to inflict terrible damage anywhere, anytime. These groups are small, spread out, and mix in with the general population. The fact that we have up until very recently only understood that our safety and security could only be threatened by a mass military machine, has caused many intelligent people to be blinded to the to the fact that these "small" groups can cause as much, and perhaps, more destruction than a highly visible advancing army, due to the ease of mobility and the element of tactical surprise they possess.

 The real and present threat that exists today, is the likelihood that rogue nations such as Iraq/N.Korea/Iran etc - with tactical nuclear weaponry and or technology will secretly supply our enemies with these weapons, and or technology.  

 How do you like the idea of having several secret operatives who are your next door neighbors - whose children play with your own children, in possession of suitcase nuclear bombs strategically spread out throughout the U.S.A. and allied nations, waiting for a signal to push the button?

 This is the reality that we find ourselves in today my friend, and perhaps - God willing - we will have enough time to come up with "cleaner" techniques to deal with these nations, but right now we have little choice but to seek out these dictatorial countries, take over, and attempt to establish some kind of a democracy. For the most part, the people of these dictatorships are prisoners in their own countries, and would love to have the same system of democracy as the West, however, they are scared to death to make the move on their own.

 I would love to live in the world you believe we are living in Crystal, and once Jesus returns it will finally be made right. Until that time we must fight our enemies, or die in our beds.

Bronzesnake

Quite the contrary, I am actually well aware of our geo-political situation and have not been considered naive for a very long time. So we can start right off with you being wrong and continue from there.



Tell this to the service men and women on the streets in Iraq... it's VERY face to face.



You are partially right here, what you confuse is the capability of terrorists in general and those insurgents and terrorists currently fighting in Iraq.

This is also a true statement. You are well on your way to intelligent thought; if only you can keep it up... we'll see...

 

You jumped off a cliff and did a swan dive into ignorance, arrogance and moral depravity. Let me edify you a bit. First off, it is NOT our right to invade the sovereignty of another country unless we have been attacked by them. Afghanistan harbored and refused to hand over Osama after Al Qaeda attacked our country on 9/11. We had the right to go there and hunt him down. Did we have the right to overthrow the government there? This is still under debate but the majority believe so because of their refusal to cooperate with us and their support for Al Qaeda. Some argue that Al Qaeda is not the "army" of the Taliban and we have no right to displace the Afghanistan government just because some terrorists are hiding out in the mountains there. But this is a side issue, back to your statement.

What makes you believe that we have the right to invade, overthrow and replace another country and it's government? Because they MIGHT supply our enemies with the weapons they need to attack us? MIGHT? are you kidding? This is a ridiculous premise and morally corrupt at the very least. What we should do is make our country more secure so that our enemies cannot easily attack us on our own soil. Then we work with the international community to pressure these "rogue" nations. Your rationale would be similar to your neighbor killing your family because your dog might bite him. If your dog is aggressive he can use law enforcement to pressure you. He can build a fence to keep your dog out. But he can NOT take pre-emptive action and kill your family as a means to protect himself.

Next, Iraq was not a threat to us and the Bush administration used our nationalism as a tool to satisfy his own agenda in Iraq. But for a moment let's use your logic. N.Korea and Iran are HUGE threats to the U.S. so why go after Iraq? If we really we taking pre-emptive action we should have invaded Iran. Saddam would have gotcha8ed his pants and done anything we commanded if we had done so. Iran has a population much more westernized and much more pro-democracy than Iraq. NO my friend, it's you that is naive. The invasion of Iraq was not pre-emptive nor justified nor righteous.

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-13281099,00.html

Not so much in Iraq, the common person in Iraq does not really even understand the concept of our democracy or they would be putting down these insurgents themselves and at least helping us more than they are. And if you think they will have a free and democratic society like ours anytime soon then you are not only naive but foolish. Their version of democracy will be so different than ours at first that you'd never even be able to compare the 2.


Do we need to protect ourselves? Absolutely, but not by sending our children all over the world invading countries, they should be here protecting our borders with highly trained and highly organized strike forces going out and taking out threats around the world. Your version of the world just sends our kids off into situations like we have now in Iraq.

Peace

CrystalClear,

You make a lot of statements as if it were a person that thinks they know these things firsthand. Have you experienced these things firsthand or are you going by the media or other second hand information?

CrystalClear,

I will simply say that I give thanks that the majority of Americans disagree with you completely. I also give thanks that the vast majority of our Armed Forces disagree with you completely.

Needless to say, I disagree with you completely and feel that your thoughts on this issue are extremely naive. A stick your head in the sand and wait until someone comes to get you philosophy is why we had 9-11. A like analogy would be waiting for your child to commit murder before you decide to discipline them.

We can agree to disagree, and that's fine. You just gave me something else to give thanks for.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 100:3  Know ye that the LORD he is God: it is he that hath made us, and not we ourselves; we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture.

Experienced what things? You'll need to be a bit more clear.

I'm not sure where you get your information from Sir but the majority of Americans DO agree with me. http://www.pollingreport.com/iraq

Being a former Marine I think I have a pretty good idea of what our service men and women think and since I still have contact with many I certainly do have first hand knowlege of at least some of their opinions.

I said nothing about sticking my head in the sand in fact I believe I stated that we should be more active with our nations security and that we should send spec ops to take out terrorist cells. We do NOT have the right to invade another country on the off chance that they might do something sometime. You have to remember that Iraq didn't attack us, the Bush administration portrayed them to be dangerous because they MIGHT have WMDs (which we see they don't). The French, the Russians and the Germans  MIGHT have been selling them "things" that they shouldn't have been, so should we invade them as well?

Regardless, all of this is pre-emptive nonsense is a smoke screen to cloud the real issue which is that we invaded Iraq unjustly.

Your analogy is flawed, a better analogy would be punishing your neighbors child because you think he's capable of commiting a crime.

Of course in the end we can disagree which is the beauty of a free society.  :D

Peace

I, too, am former military. 20+ years. I was there and still, daily, talk to many that are still there.

 

 ???  I think that someone is in the Twilight Zone.   :D

This was a top issue in a recent election. It was very recent, but it appears that many have already forgotten the results. If the Armed Forces had been the only ones allowed to vote, it would have been a Bush landslide. BUT, we all got to vote, and it was still a strong Bush mandate.

Maybe the news hasn't gotten out yet:

CrystalClear quote...



 So we have the right to invade a foreign country and take out it's citizens?



 Just goes to show you that just because we may be former, or even at present in the military, we don't necessarily have all the facts.

 http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20041028-122637-6257r.htm

 http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/10/11/iraq.nuclear/index.html

 The following is a post I made in feply to a person who made the same arguments as you my friend...he never answered my question as to why Saddam would let things go so far if he truely had no WMDs or any interaction with terrorists. Perhaps you can give me a logical explanation as to why he allowed himself to be booted out of his throne, lose his sons and power, and for what? to back his bluff?

 From Bronzesnake on a previous post...
"I disagree. I believe they were there. The entire U.N. Security Council believed they were there. The evidence is overwhelming that the weapons existed. Stockpiles that were tagged by inspectors following the first war disappeared - however, Saddam either couldn't, or wouldn't disclose where they went. Saddam used them in the past against the Kurds and Iranians. I believe the WMD were shuttled across the boarder and into Syria.

Ask yourself this question...
Why would Saddam keep screwing the inspectors around? Why wouldn't he have simply said, "ok, I don't want to have my country attacked and occupied - I don't want to die or be captured - I like my job with all the riches and killing of anyone who looks at me the wrong way - I really don't have any WMD, so I will allow full access and disclosure."
It would have been that simple Tim. He would still be in power today, his sons would still be alive and free to torture and murder whoever they chose. Saddam, Russia, France, and Germany would still be secretly leeching millions off of the oil for food program.

I am not naive enough to believe Saddam had no connection or interaction with America's most viscous enemies. Saddam had the weapons and the technology, and he most likely handed some of it over to those who would kill your family Tim.
To believe this guy (Saddam) was just an innocent victim (slight exaggeration on my part) is ludicrous. Now the Americans are right beside Iran, and have a fighting force smack dab in the Middle east. That was brilliant strategy.
Would you honestly have attacked Iran first? Any military tactician worth his salt would never have attempted that under the same circumstances Tim. Sorry about your luck Saddam, but you reap what you sew. Goodbye evil dictatorship - hello democracy!

Is it just coincidence that Iran is now backing down from their nuclear ambitions? Do you honestly believe this would have happened if Saddam was still in power and the Americans weren't parked next door?

Dems and Republicans alike were all for the war Tim, and now that the election is on, the Dems are pretending they were clueless."




 What about the twelve years of snubbing the U.N. sanctions and the U.N. resolutions my friend?


 Good talking with you my friend...

Bronzesnake

"The real heroes are the men and women who continue to give their time and even their lives, not just for the American way of life, but for the freedom of Iraqi boys and girls, men and women to live free from the tyranny of dictatorship, threats and torture." "These are freedom fighters, young soldiers with bright futures, and they are willing to put everything on the line because something deep inside of them says it's good and it's right and somebody has to draw a line and say, 'Not here, not anymore -- no more imprisonment, no more depraved ideologies, no more intimidation, no more empty promises, no more 9/11s, no more terrorism, period.'"

Capt. Andy Taylor, USAR upon his return from Iraq.

I am sorry for you and those you know... I also thank you for your service.  ;)

Actually the top issue was how well the Bush campaign fooled a good majority of voters. They did an excellent job of putting down Kerry (not hard to do actually), making soccer moms scared and then telling them only "dubaya" could keep them safe (these are normally Dem voters) and the biggest kudo goes to the way they yanked the Christian vote by positioning themselves as protecting marriage i.e. putting down gays (of course it's a sin but that's another issue) even though he rather quitely in october came out FOR civil unions (did ya miss that?) and claiming conservative values. Completely avoiding the economic mess he's gotten us into and a wide range of other social and political problems.

To your other points, hah. You don't know the truth about what the average soldier thinks.
Bush DIDN'T get a strong mandate. He got 56 million votes out of a voting age population of over 200 million... Kerry got more votes this time than Bush did in 2005 but because of the above reasons Bush still managed to win. It was by no means a whooping victory.

So we have the right to invade a foreign country and take out it's citizens?

You can try but you will not bait me with that. You know exactly what I said.  ;D

Just goes to show you that just because we may be former, or even at present in the military, we don't necessarily have all the facts.

 http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20041028-122637-6257r.htm

...said in an interview that he believes the Russian troops, working with Iraqi intelligence, [b]"almost certainly"[/b]

Nuff said.

 http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/10/11/iraq.nuclear/index.html

Umm... the IAEA was watching these sites, had inspected these sites, had sealed these sites which tells you that they were NOT producing nuclear materials. This article is not good for your argument.

 The following is a post I made in feply to a person who made the same arguments as you my friend...he never answered my question as to why Saddam would let things go so far if he truely had no WMDs or any interaction with terrorists. Perhaps you can give me a logical explanation as to why he allowed himself to be booted out of his throne, lose his sons and power, and for what? to back his bluff?

This has been speculated on since... well, since before the war and most experts agree that Saddam is a meglomaniac for starters and second that the mindset of the middle east is very different from the western mindset. If Saddam backs down without a fight then he is shamed, being a meglomaniac he can't do this. Also if he defies the world community and can hold out until a "Vietnam" mindset grips the US population then he will have stood up to the evil empire and won. His supporters will love him more, his enemies will fear him more and his head gets even bigger.
Perhaps instead of only reading or listening to the news you WANT to hear you should actually look into different sides to get the REAL picture.

 From Bronzesnake on a previous post...
"I disagree. I believe they were there. The entire U.N. Security Council believed they were there. The evidence is overwhelming that the weapons existed. Stockpiles that were tagged by inspectors following the first war disappeared - however, Saddam either couldn't, or wouldn't disclose where they went. Saddam used them in the past against the Kurds and Iranians. I believe the WMD were shuttled across the boarder and into Syria.

Ask yourself this question...
Why would Saddam keep screwing the inspectors around?
Because he is a nut case and it makes him look powerful.
 Why wouldn't he have simply said, "ok, I don't want to have my country attacked and occupied - I don't want to die or be captured - I like my job with all the riches and killing of anyone who looks at me the wrong way - I really don't have any WMD, so I will allow full access and disclosure."
Because he is a nut case and it makes him look (feel) powerful.

It would have been that simple Tim. He would still be in power today, his sons would still be alive and free to torture and murder whoever they chose. Saddam, Russia, France, and Germany would still be secretly leeching millions off of the oil for food program.

I am not naive enough to believe Saddam had no connection or interaction with America's most viscous enemies. Saddam had the weapons and the technology, and he most likely handed some of it over to those who would kill your family Tim.
Bah, he didn't have squat. The Bush admin admitted this to the press before 9/11. His military was weak and he was more interested in being a mighty ruler in the mid-east.

To believe this guy (Saddam) was just an innocent victim (slight exaggeration on my part) is ludicrous. Now the Americans are right beside Iran, and have a fighting force smack dab in the Middle east. That was brilliant strategy.
Would you honestly have attacked Iran first? Any military tactician worth his salt would never have attempted that under the same circumstances Tim. Sorry about your luck Saddam, but you reap what you sew. Goodbye evil dictatorship - hello democracy!

Yes we are right next door with a fighting force bogged down in a quagmire, undermanned and in a world of trouble. We are having to "backdoor draft" our military just to maintain the current staffing and have NO ability to make any kind of military threat to anyone and IRAN (N.Korea too) know it full well. So is this now the reason we are in Iraq, to threaten Iran? HAH!

Is it just coincidence that Iran is now backing down from their nuclear ambitions? Do you honestly believe this would have happened if Saddam was still in power and the Americans weren't parked next door?

You really have been blinded by the propaganda... try doing a little research before you ramble. Iran is in talks with other nations but have not backed off anything and in fact may be very close to being able to produce enriched uranium.

Dems and Republicans alike were all for the war Tim, and now that the election is on, the Dems are pretending they were clueless."

If you lie to me about a thing and I go along with you on it does that mean I can't change my position once I learn that you lied?


 What about the twelve years of snubbing the U.N. sanctions and the U.N. resolutions my friend?

What about it? Like I said, Saddam is a nut-case.

 Good talking with you my friend...

Bronzesnake


Peace to you!  ;)

 Crystal...

 Your reason for why Saddam let things go so far is because he's a nut case?

 OK, you got me...I'm convinced. ;)

 Do you know about the strike against his nuclear facilities (which he didn't have  ::)) by the Israelis?

 I guess all my sources are bad, and I'm a blind fool who only sees what he wants to see - but your sources?? are legit and you are an enlightened being above reproach right? You're not seeing only what you want to see right? You don't only subscribe to sources which correspond to your beliefs right?

 I think you'd better clean your crystal ball...it's a wee bit foggy my friend.

 bronzesnake

Brother, I think that it's one of those ultra-left crystal balls that is 3/4 blind, and the remaining quarter is confused.   :D

We need to tell the terrorists of this world that they should be nice and trust in them that they will be. Them killing us around the world and coming to our own soil to kill us should simply be ignored. After all, it might make them mad if we tried to do anything about it. Maybe we misunderstood when they declared war on us and swore to kill us. The deaths of Americans around the world and in our own country are just coincidence. We should all be smart enough to figure this out and know that everything is our fault. Let's just stick our head in the sand and wait for them to come get us. After all, it would be much smarter to fight them on our own soil while they are killing our innocent men, women, and children. Who knows, maybe we would enjoy living like Israel and having no expectation of safety or security any minute of any day. On top of everything else, this would be politically correct and would finally make the ultra liberals happy.


NOPE! - The ultra-liberals would lose the freedom to run their mouths and many other freedoms that others paid for. In the meantime, they will stay busy bad-mouthing those who preserve their freedoms. If they stay busy enough, they can become poster children for Michael Moore.    ;D

Tom

Well first of all I am not "ultra-liberal". Just because I don't believe this war WITH IRAQ was justified nor righteous doesn't make me ultra liberal. I served my country, lost 3 friends in Beruit 1 in Desert Storm and have so far been fortunate enough not to have lost either of my 5 friends in this war. Just because I am not a fundamental doesn't invalidate my thoughts and shame on those who would try to put me down for it. I have voted republican and democrate depending on what the candidate had to offer the country.

That said, if the only thing you can do is repeat your points which have already been rebutted and make personal attacks then I will simply ignore your replies on this topic.

I saw Fahrenheit 911 and while it certainly does have a very leftist leaning that doesn't invalidate the facts that are presented. You have to be appauled at some of those facts.

Since I shut down the rest of your arguments I'll close this one as well  ;)

In 1981 Iraq was building a NUCLEAR POWER PLANT to provide energy. Israel FEARED (thought and was afraid) that Saddam MIGHT TRY to divert enriched unranium to START (not in proccess) an atomic weapons program. The action was condemed by the UN as an act of aggression since Iraq was a signatory of the Non-Proliferation Treaty, and the International Atomic Energy Agency had recently inspected the plant, which had been constructed by the French, and found nothing amiss.

Sorry friend but you really are a victim of propaganda.  :'(

Peace

Crystal quote...



 Hey, if that makes you feel better.

Crystal quote...

 Let's get away from your revisionist history, and look at the real facts my friend...

 Iraq established its nuclear program in the late 1960s when it acquired its first nuclear facilites. Later, in the 1970s, Iraq was unsuccessful in negotiations with France to purchase a plutonium production reactor similar to the one used in France's nuclear weapons program. In addition to the reactor, Iraq also wanted to purchase the reporcessing plant needed to recover the plutonium produced in the reactor. Even through these requests were denied, France agreed to build a research reactor along with associated laboratories. Iraq built the Osiraq 40 megawatt light-water nuclear reactor at the Al Tuwaitha Nuclear Center near Baghdad with French assistance. Approximately 27.5 pounds of 93% U-235 was supplied to Iraq by France for use in the Osiraq research reactor.

The reactor was a type of French reactor named after Osiris, the Egyptian God of the dead. The French renamed the one being built in Iraq, "Osiraq" to blend the name Osiris with that of the recipient state, Iraq. French orthography then made it "Osirak." Iraq called the reactor "Tammuz," after the month in the Arabic calendar when the Ba'th party came to power in a 1968 coup.

Iraq began to expand its nuclear sector in the 1970's, but made little progress in the early 1980's, when most of its energy and attention were focused on the war against Iran. In September 1980, at the onset of the Iran-Iraq War, the Israeli Chief of Army Intelligence urged the Iranians to bomb Osiraq. On 30 September 1980 a a pair of Iranian Phantom jets, part of a larger group of aircraft attacking a conventional electric power plant near Baghdad, also bombed the Osiraq reactor. Minor damage to the reactor was reported. No further Iranian air attacks against Iraqi nuclear facilities were identified during the rest of the seven-year war.

When Israeli intelligence confirmed Iraq's intention of producing weapons at Osiraq, the Israeli government decided to attack. According to some estimates, Iraq in 1981 was still as much as five to ten years away from the ability to build a nuclear weapon. Others estimated at that time that Iraq might get its first such weapon within a year or two. Prime Minister Menachem Begin felt military action was the only remedy. Begin feared that his party would lose the next election, and he feared that the opposition party would not preempt prior to the production of the first Iraqi nuclear bomb.

 My friend...In some of your posts Saddam is a nut case megalomaniac - but now he seems to be a gentle, innocent man who simply wanted to supply electricity to his beloved people! That's a joke!

 Crystal quote...
 
 Oh ya, that's a legitimate condemnation!
Gee, I wonder which U.N. member states would condemn an action taken by Israel? hmmm.

Bronzesnake

CrystalClear,




Sorry friend but you really are a victim of propaganda.

I wasn't going to comment on this at first but after much prayer have decided it to be important enough to do so.

You portend to understand what is going on in Iraq saying that the battle there is very face to face. The enemy there is not face to face with us. They cannot easily be distinguished from the general populace. Our Troops are fighting an enemy that they cannot see.




This proves how uninformed that you really are.

The following is by...
Louis Rene Beres (Ph.D., Princeton, 1971), Professor, Department of Political Science, Purdue University, lectures and publishes widely on Israeli strategic matters. His work is well-known to Israel's military and academic communities. He is also the academic adviser at the Freeman Center for Strategic Studies, a Houston-based research facility and political action group.


Twenty Years Later: Israel, Osiraq, and Anticipatory Self-Defense
7 June 2001


 Twenty years have now passed since Israeli fighter-bombers destroyed Iraq's Osiraq nuclear reactor shortly before it was ready to go "on line." At the time, the general global community reaction was overwhelmingly hostile. Even the UN Security Council, in Resolution 487 of June 19, 1981, indicated that it "strongly condemns" the attack and that "Iraq is entitled to appropriate redress for the destruction it has suffered."
Israel's very controversial defensive action of June 7, 1981 now looks very different. We now know for certain that Saddam Hussein's plans to build a French-supplied reactor at his nuclear research center at Tuwaitha, about 20 kilometers from Baghdad, were designed to produce militarily significant amounts of plutonium. There was no other purpose. The Iraqi objective was "simply" to manufacture nuclear weapons that could provide Saddam with regional dominance and - if necessary - with the implements of atomic warfighting.

An Iraqi dictatorship with nuclear weapons would have had far-reaching global implications, affecting not only the "infidel" Jewish State, but also the security of those other states requiring Middle Eastern oil and/or those states that came to be engaged in the 1991 Gulf War. In this connection, protracted failure by the international community to prevent Saddam's post-Gulf War efforts to create nuclear weapons now allows Iraq to prepare for even vastly-greater levels of aggression. If only this international community had been willing to replicate Israel's heroic action of June 7, 1981, rather than foolishly to condemn it, our fragile world would not be faced presently with the threat of such aggression.

Israel did not act illegally at Osiraq. International law is not a suicide pact. Under the long-standing customary right known as anticipatory self-defense, every state is entitled to strike first when the danger posed is "instant, overwhelming, leaving no choice of means and no moment for deliberation." As noted above, this right is especially compelling today, when failing to preempt may bring about national annihilation. Israel did not commit aggression at Osiraq. Iraq has always insisted that a state of war exists with "the Zionist entity." It follows that since aggression cannot be committed against a state with which a country is already at war, Jerusalem could not possibly have been guilty of such a "crime against peace."

Israel did not violate the laws of war of international law at Osiraq. Fourteen Israeli aircraft took part in the raid--eight F-16 Falcons, each carrying two 1000-kilogram bombs, and six F-15 Eagles serving as escort planes. The reactor was completely destroyed, without civilian casualties and before any radiation danger existed. Unlike Iraq's thirty-nine SCUD attacks on Israel during the Gulf War, which were expressly designed to harm innocent civilians, Israel's raid on Osiraq was conceived for essential protection of civilians.

Ever since the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948, Iraq has been conspiring to destroy it. Baghdad joined several other Arab states which attacked Israel on the day of its declared independence. But while Egypt, Lebanon, Jordan and Syria proceeded to sign armistice agreements with the Jewish State in 1949 (and Egypt and Jordan went on to sign actual peace treaties), Iraq has always steadfastly insisted upon a permanent state of hostilities.

All things considered, Israel's defensive strike against an outlaw enemy state preparing for extermination warfare was not only lawful, but distinctly law enforcing. In the absence of a centralized enforcement capability, international law relies upon the willingness of individual states to act on behalf of the entire global community. This is exactly what took place twenty years ago, when--with surgical precision--Israel's fighter-bombers precluded an Iraqi nuclear option. Today, when waiting to absorb a "first shot" could sentence a tiny state like Israel to obliteration, the legitimacy of anticipatory self-defense should be more widely acknowledged than ever before.

No less than Israel's citizens, both Jews and Arabs, American and other coalition soldiers who fought in the Gulf War owe their lives to Israel's courage, skill and foresight in June 1981. Had it not been for the brilliant raid at Osiraq, Saddam's forces would have been equipped with atomic warheads in 1991. Ironically, the Saudis, too, are in Jerusalem's debt. Had it not been for Prime Minister Begin's resolve to protect his own people back in 1981, Saddam's SCUDs falling on Saudi Arabia might have spawned immense casualties and lethal irradiation.

With these facts in mind, one thing is certain. It is time for the world community generally, and the United Nations in particular, to acknowledge the obvious: Israeli preemptive action in 1981 was an heroic and indispensable act of international law enforcement. Regarding future essential resorts to anticipatory self-defense, whether by Israel or by any other state facing unconventional aggression, such an acknowledgment could provide an important incentive to do what is needed to save human lives within the authoritative bounds of international law.

These bounds, of course, are specified in certain and pertinent sources of international law. It is assuredly not permissible, for example, for a state to invoke "anticipatory self-defense" merely because it feels threatened. Rather, the danger posed must be imminent and substantial. In its original nineteenth-century expression, anticipatory self-defense required a situation that was actually "instant, overwhelming, leaving no choice of means and no moment for deliberation." Today, however, in a nuclear age, reasonableness absolutely dictates a loosening of this jurisprudential requirement in particular circumstances.

Even where there is "just cause" for defensive first-strikes, any country that resorts to anticipatory self-defense must also conform to the Law of Armed Conflict, sometimes referred to also as Humanitarian International Law. This means that the force used in such strikes must fall within the bounds of "discrimination," "proportionality" and "military necessity." Under Humanitarian International law, every use of force -including anticipatory self-defense - must be judged twice: once with regard to the justness of the preemption and once with regard to the justness of the means used in that preemption.

Presently, regional and world security are especially endangered by still-ongoing military commerce with Iraq and Iran - transfers of certain materials, unconventional weapons know-how and infrastructure that are rapidly advancing Baghdad's and Teheran's efforts to acquire nuclear weapons. The time has arrived, therefore, for a strengthened commitment to self-defense rights in world affairs, legal rights designed to prevent aggression in an increasingly anarchic world and to assure national survival. Israel acted in support of these essential rights back in June 1981. Today, twenty years later, we must ask ourselves whether the lessons of Osiraq shall finally be taken seriously, and whether they shall be learned in time.


Bronzesnake
 

More on Saddam's nobel aspirations...

http://www.nti.org/e_research/e1_iraq_N_overview.html (ftp://http://www.nti.org/e_research/e1_iraq_N_overview.html)

 http://www.warriorsfortruth.com/iraq-nuclear-weapons.html (http://www.warriorsfortruth.com/iraq-nuclear-weapons.html)

 http://www.idds.org/acr2003/453e5MEN02.html (http://www.idds.org/acr2003/453e5MEN02.html)

 Enjoy, Crystal my friend.

Bronzesnake

author=Bronzesnake  

Crystal quote...
 
 Oh ya, that's a legitimate condemnation!
Gee, I wonder which U.N. member states would condemn an action taken by Israel? hmmm.

Bronzesnake

Your detail is Pro Israel propaganda. Mine is the non-partisan version.

I don't know which UN member states would condemn this action but you seem to have an idea so share it with us!  ;D

CrystalClear,

If you saw any facts in the twisted distortion of Michael Moore, I have some swamp land I'd like to tell you about.

It was a comedy, not a documentary.

 ;D

Tom

Bronzesnake, you mistake me for an Iraq sympathizer or something and your sarcasm about Iraqs "noble intentions" is unfounded. But lets be clear on what the discussion is about. Our invasion of Iraq was unjust and based on information that the Bush administration either conjured up out of thin air and or flatly lied about. They also used our very strong feelings of nationalism and patriotism after 9/11 to mislead us into a national security ferver.

The 9/11 commision found no link to the attack and Iraq and NONE of the reasons we went to war with Iraq proved true.

Was Saddam an evil dictator? Yup, but does that give us the right to invade? NO. In fact there are and have been as bad or worse rulers and we have not invaded them.

Stop trying to tell me how horrible Saddam was, he's been that way for a long time and we gave him support.
 

Let me just throw this onto the fire...

US deserters flee to Canada to avoid service in Iraq

By Charles Laurence in New York
(Filed: 09/01/2005)

American Army soldiers are deserting and fleeing to Canada rather than fight in Iraq, rekindling memories of the thousands of draft-dodgers who flooded north to avoid service in Vietnam.

An estimated 5,500 men and women have deserted since the invasion of Iraq, reflecting Washington's growing problems with troop morale.

Jeremy Hinzman, 26, from South Dakota, who deserted from the 82nd Airborne, is among those who - to the disgust of Pentagon officials - have applied for refugee status in Canada.

The United States Army treats deserters as common criminals, posting them on "wanted" lists with the FBI, state police forces and the Department of Home Security border patrols.

Hinzman said last week: "This is a criminal war and any act of violence in an unjustified conflict is an atrocity. I signed a contract for four years, and I was totally willing to fulfil it. Just not in combat arms jobs."

Hinzman, who served as a cook in Afghanistan, was due to join a fighting unit in Iraq after being refused status as a conscientious objector.

He realised that he had made the "wrong career choice" as he marched with his platoon of recruits all chanting, "Train to kill, kill we will".

He said: "At that point a light went off in my head. I was told in basic training that if I'm given an illegal or immoral order, it is my duty to disobey it. I feel that invading and occupying Iraq is an illegal and immoral thing to do.''

Pte Brandon Hughey, 19, who deserted from the 1st Cavalry Division at Fort Hood, Texas, said that he had volunteered because the army offered to pay his college fees. He began training soon after the invasion of Iraq but became disillusioned when no weapons of mass destruction were found.

"I had been willing to die to make America safe," he said. "I found out, basically, that they found no weapons of mass destruction and the claim that they made about ties to al-Qaeda was coming up short. It made me angry. I felt our lives as soldiers were being thrown away."

When he was ordered to deploy to Iraq, Hughey searched the internet for an "underground railroad" operation, through which deserting troops are helped to escape to Canada.

He was put in touch with a Quaker pacifist couple who had helped Vietnam draft-dodgers and was driven from Texas to Ontario.

The Pentagon says that the level of desertion is no higher than usual and denies that it is having difficulty persuading troops to fight. The flight to Canada is, however, an embarrassment for the military, which is suffering from a recruiting shortfall for the National Guard and the Army Reserves.

The deaths of 18 American soldiers in a suicide bomb attack in Mosul, northern Iraq, last month, was a further blow to morale. Soon after, the number of American soldiers killed since President Bush declared that large-scale combat operations were at an end passed the 1,000 mark.

Lt Col Joe Richard, a Pentagon spokesman, said that the US government wanted the deserters to be returned from Canada. "If you don't want to fight, don't join," he said.

"The men in Canada have an obligation to fulfil their military contracts and do their duty. If and when they return to this country, they will be prosecuted."

The penalty for desertion in wartime can be death. Most deserters, however, serve up to five years in a military prison before receiving a dishonourable discharge.

In order to stay in Canada, deserters must convince an immigration board that they would face not just prosecution but also "persecution" if they returned to America. Hinzman's hearing has begun in Toronto and a decision is expected next month.

During the Vietnam war an estimated 55,000 deserters or draft-dodgers fled to Canada. There were amnesties for both groups in the late 1970s under President Jimmy Carter, but many stayed.

One who did so is Jeffrey House, a Toronto-based lawyer, who represents some of the deserters. He said that at least 25 had reached Canada in recent months with the help of "railroad" organisations, and believed that the immigration board would back his clients.

UM?? - We need to get the prison time and penalties increased for desertion.

Tom

I donot see anything said here justifying an unprovoked attack on a sovereign nation. The internal affairs of Iraq should be Iraq's to work out with out outside interference.

There are worse dictatorships in the world than Saddam's that are not friendly to America and could be a threat to America, yet we do not attack them to occupy and set up "democracy".

Why? What is so different about Iraq, that we attack it and not the others?
Meanwhile the financier and perpetrator of 9/11 is still out there and the country of origin, of the ones that carried out 9/11, says they are our friend as does our government.

Satan is sure working in the world. Come out from it. Maintain yourself in the Lord and pray hard.

ollie

Desertions during time of war or peace has happened all the way back before the Civil War.  During times of war the rates do increase. Many of these people try to use the excuse of,  "I don't believe in this war." or "I didn't realise that I would have to kill someone."  Desertion to Canada or some other country is not a new thing either nor was it new during Viet Nam.

Desertion during WWI and WWII was low in comparison for two reasons. 1. It was not socially accepted and  2. The firing squad was more readily used. During WWII the firing squad was terminated after the first soldier was caught and executed and the media raised a big stink over it.

After that they were sentenced to jail time and given a dishonorable discharge even though the laws still say they could be placed before a firing squad. Normally the jail time does not extend past their normal obligated time of service.

To the person who started this thread,
SHAME ON YOU!!!!!!!!!!!! >:(

it sickens me that you think our soliders are killing iraqi babies. War ins't pretty its defiantly not a tea party, why don't you blaim Hussain for havig his army dress like civillian and hide among the towns people? Using his own people as humans shields? You think the USA is so bad move to Iraq, be an American Christian and try to keep your head.

I've never been to war, but MY BABY went to war, it was his job, he didn't plan on going to war. He thought the military would be a good way to get on his feet after high school....nieve on his part yes... BUt once you sign you do what your told. And he did. Do you believe for one minute that I believe my baby should have allowed someone to shoot him because war with iraq was wrong (it wasn't), and by the way you have ever right to your opinion my son defended your right, how ironic? Your thread is a major cut down to our military. Sure its not perfect, but a WHOLE lot better than Hussenian and his army who are the true baby killers, along with his sons who were saddistic rapist.

I'm ashamed of anyone who would call themselves a christian and call our military baby killers. Instead of condeming  our President, why do you try praying for him, our military and those in iraq too. You got him for another 4 years no matter what you like.

God called for the death of all first born .......so I guess he is a "baby killer" too?  

Get over it Bush won, THANK GOD,
musicllover

 Look my friend...I'm not attacking you personally, you make some good points, and we have different opinions on this one. I honestly believe that you haven't got a good grip on the situation the world is in at present.

 There was a time when the dictatorships of the world were mostly a regional menace. We could afford to ignore them for the most part, or even use them in order to keep a greater evil at bay. This might not sound pretty, but it's a tactic that is essential in this imperfect world. Things today have changed. These once basically harmless dictatorships are now a very real threat to the world. I don't believe I have to explain why that is my friend. We can not afford to wait until we look out our windows and see a mushroom cloud rising into the heavens. Our governments have a duty and responsibility to seek out and snuff out all and any potential threats. Saddam could not be negotiated with, he attacked Kuwait! what kind of an insane nut case does that and convinces not only himself, but his military leaders that the world would be OK with that??? a person who has that mind-set and who has access to oil money - who had and used W.M.D.s on his own people - had active nuclear weapons programs etc, etc, etc. This guy hated the U.S., he attempted to assassinate a U.S. president. What are the odss that this guy was providing weapons, technology and cash to terrorists who would kill your loved ones Crystal?

Twenty years ago we wouldn't have to really consider a pre-emptive strike - times and tactics have changed my friend. Don't believe anything you see on the news concerning the W.D.M. intelligence - whatever you pick up on the news is strategically placed there to confuse and divert attention from what's really going on - this is done for several reasons, two obvious reasons are to keep operatives and informants alive, and to keep the populations of the world reasonably ignorant of just how close to total annihilation we really are.

 Here's some facts to consider... The U.N. acknowledges Iraq had a nuclear weapons program going on - the U.N. acknowledges Iraq had other W.M.D. programs going on - the U.N. placed choking sanction on Iraq because Iraq refused to hand over the weapons materials, and refused to allow free and total access for inspectors. The world knows that Russia, France and Germany supplied Iraq with illegal arms and technology on a far greater scale than the U.S, ever did. The world knows that Russia, France and Germany along with Saddam, siphoned huge amounts of cash off of the oil for food and medicine program...the money hasn't been found...where do you suppose that money went to, and for what purpose? Don't be so gullable my friend, there's plenty of evidence on the edges to understand a portion of what is really going on. Russians were in Iraq just prior to opening salvos - they were at weapons depots - they left with a huge convoy of covered military trucks and were seen going out of Iraq and into Syria...do you honestly believe those who would tell us they were only there to take conventional weapons??? does that make sense to you? does that seem like a reasonable explanation to you?

 I understand your reservations in regard to the U.S. and allies apparently loosing their minds and invading an essentially "innocent" sovereign country. Ask yourself why they would do that. Please don't insult me by saying it was for oil.

 As far as the deserters here in Canada...We should have shipped them back the very same day they sniveled up here.

 These people only joined the military because they wanted a free education. Well excuse me, but you know full well what you're signing up for when you join the military. If you don't like war, or the possibility of fighting a war you don't understand, then don't join the military. It's a slap in the face to every veteran currently fighting, and to all our veterans who have given their lives throughout history.

Bronzesnake

Amen to that!

Bronzesnake & Pastor Roger,

My son was just home on leave from the Navy for 10 days. He recently spent 11 months in the Gulf, and I am so proud of him and his mates. He's on the Nimitz aircraft carrier, and most of the ship worked 20 hour days during this time, 7 days a week. They were very proud of what they were doing, and they wished that they could have done more.

I have no sympathy or respect at all for deserters. - ZERO

Further, I have zero respect for anyone who disrespects our young men and women of the Armed Services or says anything that hurts their morale. They are serving with courage and pride, much like the generations before them who have preserved our freedoms and way of life.

My son has a very simply thought that he says is shared by his mates:

Find the terrorists and fight them all over the world so we won't have to fight them at home.

That's a very simple and logical thought, one that is probably the reason why we haven't had another 9-11 or many 9-11's. If they have a wheelchair brigade and an extra rifle, I would love to go help them. Make no mistake, they believe in what they're doing, and they're proud to be able to serve. It makes me sick when someone throws mud on their service and disrespects them.

Freedom isn't free. Someone always pays for it in sweat, tears, and blood. We should be praying for our young men and women every day and thank them from the bottom of our heart with every chance we get. We don't live like Israel because of them. All of the freedoms we enjoy are because of them and the generations before them who served proudly with courage.

I dealt with homeland security before it was called homeland security, so I know something about this topic. There were piles of teletypes every day. Common sense tells one that if you engage them around the world before they come here, the homeland will be safer. The terrorists formally declared war on us in the early 90's and they swore they were coming to kill us. We didn't take them seriously, and they did exactly what they swore to do. We really have only two choices:  1- Find them and fight them on their own soil;  2- Wait until they come to get us and fight them on our own soil. DUH??? - Hard decision!

Love In Christ,
Tom

Hebrews 11:1  Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Brother Beps, I thank you and anyone else that supports our active duty Military and Veterans.

I thank your son and his ship mates for carrying on a proud tradition that I am no longer able to do myself. I am with you all the way on your comments. If it were possible I would be there.  As you already know my handicapp prevents that. A handicap caused by having been there. That is not a complaint but something that I gladly did and would do again.

This is one of the reasons that I work with both active duty Military and Veterans everyday. Giving them support  spiritually, morally and physically. I talk to many daily (somewhere around 100). All of these young men and women are proud to be there doing what they are.



Our troops deserve full supporters such as you and not someone tearing down their moral by saying they are in an illegal war.

I agree Pastor,
                   Even though a military accidnet has caused my own sons disability he wants to be there too....... me I'm his momma and I thank God everyday that he was hit by a car while on duty, there are only a few men left of the caat red team, had he not been hit by the car he would most likely be dead, everyone else in his humvee has been killed or wounded for life.
       If only there were more who had a burden like you do, and lived closer to where my son lives. He so need the moral and spiritual guidance right now. I am proud of all our military, may God bless each and everyone, protect them and bring them home soon. And give our President wisdom and guidance during the next 4 years.

musicllover

Thank you for your kind words. Actually, with the internet I am quite close nearby. He is welcome to talk with me at anytime. I would be thrilled to help him in anyway I can. There are many of us that feel the same way and are helping each other..

There are many of us throughout the U.S. that are doing what we can to help out in the same manner.


Here is one such young man that we are currently helping.

http://www.operationbrokenarrow.org/

Pastor Roger & Musiclover,

There is much more in my heart than just support for our Armed Forces and the heroes of past generations who have served us. I love them and have the deepest respect for them. I don't have words to properly express my thanks that is deep within my heart, but I do try with every opportunity I get.

I served in the 60s, but I'm not a Veteran of Foreign War. I spent most of the rest of my active life in police work. Pastor Roger, my disability is from police work, and I would do it all over again just like you would. I simply give thanks that God allowed me to serve.

Musiclover, I would love to spend some time with your son, and I know there are many Christians near your home who would also love to spend some time with your son. There are many Christians who feel the same way I do about our young men and women who sacrifice so much in preserving our way of life.

Sister, I would be happy to correspond with your son if he would allow it. I'm really thinking that there are many people in Christian Counseling or folks connected to Christian Serviceman's Centers who would love to talk with your son. I'm not a counsellor, rather just a Christian who really cares about him. I'll be happy to help in any way that I can. My email is:

Tom Rightmer
blkidps@sirinet.net

Love In Christ,
Tom

I Corinthians 1:9  God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

muscllover,

If you could give me a general location for your son I could get him in contact with some people that might be able to help. That or he can contact Beps, myself or both.

My email is:

rogeranders@gmail.com


Just let us know how we can help.



And Beps, a Veteran is a Veteran be it Military, Police or Fire Dept. They are all service to the country. It doesn't have to be a war Veteran in my book. Thank you.

I don't wholly agree with you on this PR. I haven't done the research but I'll bet you that desertion rates are higher when the wars are not justified. Korea saw a sharp increase in desertion but nothing like Vietnam and now Iraq... WW1 and WW2 saw low desertion rates because the were just wars. The Civil war had a VERY high desertion rate... wonder why?

Pastor Roger,

Brother, I just realized what you are doing now. I loved you before as a brother in Christ, and I love and respect you MORE now. I will pray for you and your ministry every day. I'm a little bit choked up right now, so please just let me say thank you - GOD BLESS YOU!

Brother, if there is anything you think I could do to help in your ministry, please let me try.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 8:28  And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

No one is blaming the troops we are blaming the Bush administration. I blame the Bush administration for every single death (not just our own death toll) in THE IRAQ war. Not the war on terror because they are VERY different things.

I'm glad we all agree that support of our troops is ESSENTIAL! Amen to all of you!  :)

Bronzesnake, I'm glad that you are willing to argue with me in an adult manner! Thank you!

However, nothing in your last post (while I agree with almost all of what you said) gives us the right to invade a country that did not attack us. Period. Not only does it not give us the right to invade them but it is even worse to invade and try to impose a government of our choosing. Yes, I know there will be *snicker* elections this month but we decided what type of government is best for them...

Gee how big of you, what about Husseins tactics? Lets spread the kindness around a little.........lol.
Pres Bush is their commander and cheif, I know for my son and many of you commrades when you cut down the Pres your cutting them down so to them you are blaiming the troops.
      For the record, why would you call Pres Bush a baby killer, your talking about the wrong president.
        Truth is, anyone who wants to call Pres Bush a baby killer is way off here, its Clinton who supports abortion, partional birth abortion even, he is the real baby killer.

musicllover

Beps,

My ministry is two fold.  I (along with a group of other members) council with individuals (Veterans, Active Duty, and those thinking of joining) through the following forum:

http://forums.military.com/1/OpenTopic?a=frm&s=78919038&f=89610255

It is a forum that is sponsored by www.military.com

I am one of many volunteers through a Veteran sponsored site (not all of us are necessarily Christians). The site is fairly new and not all functions work yet.

http://www.operationbrokenarrow.org/

Anyone wishing to volunteer their time may go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/brokenarrowvolunteers/join

We are a new nonprofit group just starting Broken Arrow. In fact not a penny goes into any of our pockets. All donations if any go directly to the people it is designated for.

The most important thing is to get the word out to those that need help of any sort even if it just someone that needs to talk to someone. If nothing else,  prayers and more prayers for the two groups and for those that we are trying to help.

To support the troops you must be able to support what they are doing. What they are doing is war. To say that war is illegal is to say that what they are doing is illegal.

Anything less is just empty, meaningless words that breaks down the moral of the troops. This is not just my sentiment but that of many that are there and have been there.

Tom, Pasot Rogers,
                         Thank you both so much, I will send you privately my location. Also I will make note of your address.

musicllover

 BEP & P.R.
Keep telling it like it is my brothers!!

Please thank your son for me BEP.
 Thank you Pastor Rogers for your service. I was in the Navy cadets when I was a young man. My "ship" was the HMS Illustrious - of course it was really only a converted arena, however, my dad served on that aircraft carrier during WWII in England. That carrier was part of the far east fleet. That carrier sank the entire Italian navy in port, using the outdated bi-wing Swordfish torpedo bombers! The HMS Illustrious has the distinction of being the aircraft carrier that took the most torpedoes without sinking! The ship received many honors for active service during the war, and I am saddened that my health went south before I could join the big leagues and carry on the distinguished family war service tradition. Dad joined the army after the war and was deployed in Egypt during the Suez canal battle.

 God bless our troops.

Bronzesnake

I thank you, brother.

My dad was not able to join the Military due to his physical condition. He did his part for the war effort while working for Caterpillar so that they could meet the gov't contract they had. There is more than one way to serve. He also did many other things as he was able such as donations, etc.

If your dad is still with you, please thank him for his service for me. With things being as they are today it is important that all Veterans and active duty Military know that what they are doing is a good thing.

Pastor Roger,

Brother, thank you for the links. I've been praying about this and plan to join you in whatever I'm able to do. My home is also the home of one of the largest Military bases in the world, Ft. Sill. We do have an Armed Services "Y" and a Christian Serviceman's Center, so I am going to pray for strength and go volunteer at one of them.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 103:17  But the mercy of the LORD is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children;

Well, I'm gonna have to disagree with you and agree with you. It's unfortunate that discent about the war affects the moral of the troops but just think how many more lives WOULD have been lost in Vietnam if we the people didn't force our government to get out of it? There were people just like a lot of you who felt we were doing a great thing fighting the commies. Even after we pulled out, of course we look back on it and wonder how we could be so foolish. At least this time around we are not taking it out on our troops. But public opinion WILL get us out of it sooner (saving lives) if we tell our government it's wrong.

This is simply a minority opinion and bears little relevance to reality. DUH? - The people have already spoken in a recent election, and the war on terror has just begun. It will continue regardless of what we do, so we should use our heads and at least choose our battleground. Hollywood and the folks like you are simply hurting our folks on the ground and helping our enemies. The terrorists will remain our enemies and keep trying to kill us regardless of where we go or what we do.

It's really just a matter of where the battles are fought - there or here. Who knows - it may be both soon. If so, we have men and women of sufficient courage to protect Hollywood and you. Anyone who thinks that we have seen the last of innocent people and children killed on our own soil is reality challenged.

I really only have one thing left to say to you on this issue. I'm positive that you calling yourself a Marine is a pain and embarrassment to the real Marines. In this and all other topics you have become involved in, you appear to be a TROLL and here for nothing but trouble.

Moderator

Beps,


I get the feeling that you are right. I know for sure that you are right on the first sentence. I was in Viet Nam also and I do not feel the least bit foolish about having been a part of it. In the opinion of many that were there, it was all the protests and riots back home that placed so much pressure on the politicians that prevented us from doing the job that we started out to do and also caused so many more deaths of our Military than was necessary.

You are also right in saying:


It is far from being over or safe for anyone.

Brother Beps, many will be greatful for your efforts no matter what they may be. Just don't over do it. That won't be of help to anyone.

God bless you.

We the people? ‘We the people’ have spoken and GW won.  If we the people had been heard in the Vietnam era the military would have fought the war not the politicians. The only foolish thing about veitnam was not letting the GIs fight to win,  The leberal powers at the time fought trying to look good in the liberal press. (One should never say anything that is not wonderfull about JFK)

The war on terror was waged against the USA .  The Clinton administration choose to do nothing… one US solder was too many to be drug through the streets... time and time again and bingo we ended up with 911…

Peace at any cost is not peace. If that was so ‘Cristalclear’ would not be posting but just agreeing. I know a few guys over there and the reports they send back are good. Full of promise, hope, future, building of hospitals and schools, thanks for the USA. I guess justice is in the heart and not all hearts are good.

Reba,
     long time no see sister, I agree with you completely. I woulded watch CNN non stop literally during the conflict. I had the tv on day and night slept in the living room with one ear open for the inbedded reporter with my sons group, I had an 800 number that I called each week to get a report on the happening in Iraq from the commander of caat red, (usually it was the same report for weeks on end, had lots of them memorized) I heard from my son himself in letter and satalite phone calls what was going on,I also belonged to the email list, or could call some of the wives, mothers from the base my son came from... Compare all this to what I was hearing on CNN,.....NOTHING lined up. CNN gave the news in a far more negative light, just the bad and the ugly, any good was left out. Even a special report involving the Marines going house to house showed a poor Iraqi family being terrorized by our Marines, NOT soo my son was there, those family yes were upset but when the interpiters explained many many times they were happy to help, even had my sons group sit down and eat supper with them in one small village while the water specialist got the water running to their village again. There is good going on, but the negative, and terrorist are the story, the ugly deaths and crimminal action of a few taint somes views of reality I am afraid.

good too see ya again,
musicllover

At least we can see your true nature. I served my country and I don't deserve that comment.

If I were trolling I would be involved in many other discussions. This is a debate forum and I am expressing my opinion in an adult manner. Ad hominem attacks on me only show a lack of grace. Why have a debate forum if what you really want to hear is everyone agree with you. Look up the word debate. I'm too angry to do your work for you this time.

Semper Fi

 

 ;D   ???   ::)   :P   8)

CrystalClear, I see you quote alot of sources that were/are against Bush.  I could post alot of different sources to prove other-wise. I don't have to, after reading what Pastor Roger, Beps, BRNZ, Reba, musiclover, and quite a few others have posted.

Dreamweaver,

;D  Brother, I'm almost sure that I remember hearing something about that in the news, but I was beginning to wonder.

By the way, just for information, terrorists are the ones who are killing Iraqi children, and they want to come here and kill our children AGAIN.

I simply want to take this opportunity again to thank the brave men and women of our Armed Forces for delaying the inevitable, more loss of innocents on our own soil. I have no doubt at all that God has been good to us, and God has given our leaders and our troops guidance, strength, and courage to protect our way of life. I pray that we never take for granted the freedoms we enjoy because of the blood, sweat, and tears of our Armed Services and the families who STAND TALL! behind them. Our children still go to school in relative safety because of them. In fact, every freedom we enjoy is because of them.

Hug and thank a soldier or a soldier's family member today. But for them, the children and the aged would also have to become soldiers. I pray that it never comes to that, and it won't if our brave young men and women serving have their way. If it does come to this, it won't be the fault of our heroes giving their all.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 36:5  Thy mercy, O LORD, is in the heavens; and thy faithfulness reacheth unto the clouds.

Yes Bush did win as you all like to cleverly point out. I said it before and I'll say it again for those of you unable to read anything other than what you want see:

I do not support Kerry nor Bush because they are both wrong for the job. So don't label me a leftist or an ultra-liberal.

The funny thing you people seem to forget is that there WERE NO TERRORIST THREATS IN IRAQ UNTIL WE INVADED!

Now all the terrorists who were headed to Afgahnistan went to IRAQ and OSAMA BIN LADEN (the REAL threat) is still on the loose. But I guess what you really want is a war with any muslims so you will simply ignore these FACTS and support an unjust war.

And I don't know what sources you are refering to since I think I linked to an independent poll. Bush may have won the election but he's losing the war.  ;D

True of Germany in the 1930 also... the 'threat' had long past....

Crystal my friend.
 There were no terrorist threats in Iraq pre war because the terrorists were running the country. That comment about "But I guess what you really want is a war with any muslims" is way out of line my brother. Even though you get people's backs against the wall with your contrasting positions on many topics, I still respected your opinions and your right to argue them, but that statement is just ugly my brother.

Bronzesnake

Is it? So my comment is ugly but BEP denigrating my military service is okey dokey? How very Christian of you all.
This is why I take issue with fundamentalists. I find them to be exclusionary and hypocritical. You're going to put down another Christian just because my political views are different than yours? Shame on you.

So you would like to see the country run like, Benito Mussolini's Italy, or Hideki Tojo's Japan, or Hilter's Germany?

Terrorists were running the country, of Iraq.

Well at least they are in one area to wipe out.

Skynews - was against Bush running for office.
CNN - Wanted Kerry, you should have seen the e-mail I got on this.
Your pollingreport.com/iraq, is complete dissagrement with the state of Arizona. The last poll here, was 87.32% for the war.

While we are on this, what about Saddam's refusal to work with the UN? Over 10 years went by, he refused to help, the inspectors. That in it's self tells me, that he did have something to hide. Saddam has no one to blame but himself. :P

Also have you though that, God is pulling the strings? Maybe God has planned this out, to his satifaction. Maybe God, is getting ready for the "Rapture."

I do not see where he denigrated your time in service, just your attitude and how other Marines might react to that attitude. I must admit that many of them would feel just that way.

CrystalClear,

Pastor Roger is quite correct. I said absolutely nothing about your service. In fact, I don't know if you served or not. If so, I have no clue about the character of that service.

I do know absolutely how you are serving on this forum, and that's what I based my comments on. I would go much further than saying that you have an attitude problem. Your running mouth is actually hurting our people in the Armed services and their families. The real Marines that I know would do much more than talk about your attitude if they heard you talking. If what you are saying now is a true characterization of you, you wouldn't make a good pimple on a real Marine.

IF you did serve as a Marine and ran your mouth this same way, you would be booted as unacceptable. We talk and act pretty nice here. I would NOT suggest that you go around real Marines and talk like you do here. I think there would be more than talking involved, and you wouldn't like it. Your words now are serving the enemy and hurting those who are doing the fighting and dying - AND their families. If you checked, there might even be some terrorist organizations who would give you a pay check for what you are doing now. Give them half a chance, and they'll try to recruit you. BUT, you are working for them free right now.

Beps,


You sure about that?  ;)

Seriously, I know a forum that is full of Marines that would have torn him apart just because he said that he was a "former" Marine. "Once A Marine Always A Marine" . Call them a Veteran, say they are former Military, but never say they are a "former" Marine. His other comments would have really roused a nasty response not fit for the eyes of anyone Christian or not.

Crystalclear,

By the way, where and when did you serve?

Crystal,
           you siad...The funny thing you people seem to forget is that there WERE NO TERRORIST THREATS IN IRAQ UNTIL WE INVADED!......

LOL.... does the devil hang out in the bars on Sat night, does he tempt the drug addict,? NO cuase he already has them doing just what he wants, the devil tempts CHristians, so why would  terrorist threaten one of there own? Hussein was footing the bill for some of thier acts, allowoing them to train in Iraq, giving them refuge, hiding them, he himself was a terrorist. The terrorist are attack anyone in Iraq now because they want control of the land/oil. But since the USA is there does that show they would attack the land and the people of the USA as well if they weren't so busy in Iraq?
    I would look at ever picture I could find when my son was there, and in one of those picture it showed the Caat Red doing some clean up early on in the conflict where Husseins henchman had sat fire to thier own oil wells. In one of the towns was a painting on a wall of the Twin towers being hit by an air plane.... small town close to the Iraqi border, painted by Hussen's people he enjoyed what happen to the people in the twin towers, he encouraged it and praised those who done it, and help foot the bill to do it. Some of our troups found old, Iraqi news papers showing pictures of the attack claiming victory for the Iraqi people.
      I don't like war, its terrible that anyone die in such terrilbe ways, I dont glorify it at all. But you say you served your country, would you do it again?  Isnt American worth fighting for? Or was it ok that we were attacked, do you have any gurantee that we would not have been attacked again? They have also found documents showing proof that further attacks were being planned, they have salalite pictures of a major convoy leaving Iraq before the conflict (possilby moving Weapons of mass descruction) they have found several blue prints of schools in the USA......SCHOOLS where our children attend classes everyday. DO we just wait until they kill our children? The world trade center had been attack under clintons administartion and nothing was done, a slap on the wrist, they blew up a ship killing several of our men, nothing was done, I believe it was time we stop letting them blow us up. Muslims believe they kill a christain they will have immediate entrance into their heaven....so any Christian is a target for them. Bin Laden begun this war, true, and we are still searching for him, but again how do we handle the Bin Laden of this world?  What would you have the USA do if you were Commander and chief. Give us a senerio of your idea of a good leader and President.
        musicllover

Just thought of this....who started this thread anyway? I aksed him/her a quesiton several post back and got no response. Just like my dog, when she eats the wrong food, does her dirty business jumps up to find a new spot and goes again.

I'm too defensive sometimes but I'm a MOM, (mom of a marine)
 ;D

A person that has gone away.

Crystal quote...

 
 Hey, I'm not a referee Crystal. I simply responded to a comment that you made, and it was wrong, just admit it and carry on my friend.

 It's ironic that you call me what you consider to be derogatory names such as "fundie" then you accuse me of being "exclusionary and hypocritical" - you accuse me of putting you down when I did no such thing...you put me down my friend.

 Let's take a deep breath and carry on debating.

 Bronzesnake

I prayed on this last night and the answer is clear to me now. To those of you who make personal attacks on me because my point of view is different than yours, I forgive you and pray for you. You may speculate about all you like about my service. I served with honor, my MOS(s) were 0311/0331/8151 (with a top secret clearence at Marine Barracks NSB Bangor) There is more and it's not open for discussion. Once a Marine, always a Marine and there are no ex-Marines only Former Marines. Surely any Marine will tell you this.

As for my comment about wanting to war with muslims. If you are guilty of feeling this way then I make no apology for pointing my finger at you. If you do not feel this way then I have nothing to apologize for since I wasn't speaking to or about you.

Bronzesnake, I appreciate our conversations and debates. Do not take my calling you a "fundie" as derogatory, I use the word only to classify your position. If you were to call me a centrist I would not be offended. If however you or anyone was offended by the word "fundie" (just a shortened form for speed anyway) because you are not a fundamentalist then I apologize to you even though I was obviously not speaking to you.

I am sorry but I will not respond to people who must attack me out of fear for my point of view.

I certainly see no point in discussing the justification of war in general with a person(s) who still believes Vietnam was a just war. I salute your service but as with Iraq I condemn the government who wrongly sent you there. Most of the men in my family have served including my father who was an AirForce pilot in Vietnam. I lost 2 relatives with another wounded in Vietnam and have known and respected many servicemen and women who were there as well.

Peace

Gremany nor Italy invaded the USA yet you stated WWI and WWII were valid.

 by the above statment ...You voted for the killing of thousands of babies your words of antiwar ring untrue. The war on the unborn is unjust and you voted for it. The blood of those dead babies is on your hands. Your message is hollow.

LOL... did you want to debate that position?

I'll accept my bloody hands if you accept yours.

Did you want to debate something or just make a personal attack on me?

by your vote your debate is hollow

Hi all!  

I have been a long time casual observer of this forum, and I have, over the months, found its discuaaion interesting, and sometimes a little entertaining.  However, I have decided to finally take the plunge as it were and write my first post, and I apologise in advance for any errors herein.

I decided to write today in responce to what I have seen in this particular thread as being a little frightening.  It seems as though many of you are eager to attack this CrystalClear guy, for doing exactly what is excpected of him in not only in this "debate" section, but as a good citizen of the U.S., and that is to question, and hold accountable our leaders.  While many of you are unabashedly pro operation Iraqi freedom, many recent polls are showing that the nation is almost perfectly split on the issue.  You say that he is somehow helping the terrorist by debating?  come on folks, I'm sure everyone can see the foolishness in that argument, seeing as he is excersising the right, nay the western responsibility, that many theocracies and authoritarian regimes hate most of all.  However, what I found most horrific and troubling, was a recent post that seemed to intimate that the points raised by CrystalClear were somehow invalid, because of the way he has voted.  How embarassing.  By your rationale, the views of roughly half of the american people are to be cast aside, and disregarded.  Who loves authoritarianism now?

Thank you Thommy for your support. In case you hadn't figured it out, this (and worse) is how Pat Robertson and the like would treat the majority of our population were they to get their wish and gain control of our government.


Peace

Crystal quote...

 That's fair enough my friend, but do you honestly believe the U.S. government is simply starting war with "Muslims"?

 I'm not offended by being called a fundie, however, I wasn't sure if you weren't being slightly offensive or not. I accept your explanation and good intentions.

 Thanks for your service my friend...even if we don't see eye to eye on Iraq.

Bronzesnake

Any person who votes to support the killing of babies is a murder of the most innocent. Because half the American people think abortion is a right does not make it rational. Odd how taking a stand against abortion is concidered embarassing, horrific, troubling.

Hi Reba,

I'm sure if you read my post again, you'll see that I didn't even mention abortion.  I have no problem with your obviously strong stance on the matter, and I don't think your opinions regarding it make you neccesarily horrific.  What I said was horrific, was your eagerness to dismiss wholesale, the entirety of someone's point, simply because of how they voted.  Come to think of it, If you could only vote for presidents who have taken your stance on abortion, I'm not sure who you'd vote for, seeing as neither Regan, G.H.W. Bush or his kid, all republicans, have deemed it fit to overturn R. V. Wade.

I have "written in" Allen Keyes except for this last election i did vote for GW.

Any vote for a party or person who supports abortion is support for the murder of the unborn. My reference to abortion is in my post is because of the  poster choice to vote for a democrat.

Below is a piece of the democrat 2004 platform....

I'm not sure how the whole gay marriage thing fits into this particular debate.  Nice quote though.  G.W. has been quite a divisive force in our society, thanks for bringing that to my attention.  Just don't say that the views of an individual on mess-o-potamia are invalid, simply by virtue of their vote.  We do not live in a single issue world.

No, I think GWB and his cronies have an agenda that we aren't privy to. I do believe that some Fundamentalist Christians are supporting the war (and this president) because they believe Islam to be an "abomination" are are overjoyed that we are at war with a country full of them. I also believe there are some here.

Again I am grateful for your mature conversation!

Peace

Reba, you have a great deal of anger in you and you should pray for guidence in this area. As for who I vote for, I'll tell you that ONE issue is not sufficient do base a political philosophy on. I vote based on a variety of issues so I choose the candidate who most closely represents what I would like to see help our country at that point in time. I have voted both Republican and Democrat. I am registered as an Independant but did not support either candidate this time around. If you base your vote entirely on the candidates position on abortion then you probably haven't voted in quite some time.

Like I said before, you support GWB so if you accept the blood on your hands of tens of thousands of Iraqi's and close to 2000 American Servicemen then I will do the same.

It's funny that anti-abortionists are against one form of killing and not another. I don't think the Bible tells us that killing babies is a sin, in fact quite the contrary:

Psalm 137:
7)Remember, O LORD, the children of Edom in the day of Jerusalem; who said, Rase it, rase it, even to the foundation thereof.
8) O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us.
9)Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

Exodus 12:
29)And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle

 ::)   ???   ::)   ???   8)

Crystal.......I quote
"It's funny that anti-abortionists are against one form of killing and not another. I don't think the Bible tells us that killing  babies is a sin, in fact quite the contrary:"
I've added the red hightlight,
I'm completely shocked you said this? Since when is the killing of any innocent baby NOT a sin? But lets Set aside the abortion issue for a second, this debate is against the war that you say you are against.  Now I'm confused as to what you believe. So you believe killing a baby isn't a sin? But you don't like the war in Iraq?


The scripture you referr to in Psalm, is referring to the Babylon empire, enemies of God, the scriptures from Exodus was when the Pharoah wouldn't let the Isarealites go making him and enemy of God. With this in mind when did God every kill the child of a believer? You won't answer me cause you've dodged my question up till now, but please give me one instance when God took the life of a child of a believer?

I remind you that we are the created, God is the creater with just a simply thought we could all be dead, so does that make God a murder? Did the flood make God a murder too? You can't say war is wrong but its ok to kill baby's, the 2 don't mix.

musicllover

musiclover,

I suppose that is the real crux of the debate here.  Both sides seem to want to justify the kiiling of one and not the other.  Perhaps we need to break into two new camps: 1. pro-choice/ pro-war, so you can say killing people is great OR 2. Pro-Life/Anti-war. so you can say killing anyone is wrong.  Then no one could find any hypocrisy!  You might have a tough time finding support, as most democrats are ant-war pro-choice and most republicans are decidedly pro-life and pro-war.  You see, both sides have their inhearant problematic reasoning.  Thats what makes these sort of debates so entertaining.  Keep it comming!  

I think you are reading too much, between the lines. I haven't seen Reba angry, or mad, at any poster, except stupid ones.

Resting with the Lord.
Bob

Psalm 4:4 In your anger do not sin; when you are on your beds, search your hearts and be silent. Selah

I've added the red hightlight,
I'm completely shocked you said this? Since when is the killing of any innocent baby NOT a sin? But lets Set aside the abortion issue for a second, this debate is against the war that you say you are against.  Now I'm confused as to what you believe. So you believe killing a baby isn't a sin? But you don't like the war in Iraq?

I've added the red highlight. we'll keep that sentence in mind for later (soon actually).

The scripture you referr to in Psalm, is referring to the Babylon empire, enemies of God, the scriptures from Exodus was when the Pharoah wouldn't let the Isarealites go making him and enemy of God. With this in mind when did God every kill the child of a believer? You won't answer me cause you've dodged my question up till now, but please give me one instance when God took the life of a child of a believer?

Ok, here we are with some interesting stuff. I quoted those passages to make a point to Reba that God has ordered the wholesale killing of innocent lives (children, babies, animals) according to his purpose. Does God allow abortions to happen as part of his plan; it's not inconceivable is it? Perhaps these children would grow up to be enemies of God, I can't say.
I am against abortion as a means of birth control but I am for women’s rights to choose what happens to their own bodies. I allow them to make the choice and let God be the judge according to his plan. I also believe abortion to be an option when the mother’s life is in danger, again by her choice. God takes from us the lives of the newly born by the thousands every day, all according to his plan and it is not for me to judge that plan. But abortion aside.

Give you and example of when God took the life of a believer’s child? Ever hear of the evening news? Happens every day. But even more interesting is the fact that you seem to believe it's not sin to take the life of a child as long as it's the child of one of Gods enemies... curious. Remember that red highlight up there?  

I remind you that we are the created, God is the creater with just a simply thought we could all be dead, so does that make God a murder? Did the flood make God a murder too? You can't say war is wrong but its ok to kill baby's, the 2 don't mix.

I didn't WAR was wrong my dear, I said THIS WAR was wrong.

I'm confused as to where you stand because you seem to be against abortion, but for war whether it's just and righteous or not and for the killing of babies of the enemies of God?

Oh, and I'm not sure what questions of your I've dodged...

Well, perhaps I am reading anger where there is none.
And I appreciate your compliment.  :D

Someone said something about abortion, and I thought that I should post this.

Gospel of Matthew, Chapter 18
l. At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, "Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?"
2. And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
3. And said, "Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
4. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
5. And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
6. But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea."

So then killing of a child or someone that is saved, wouldn't that be offending them?  And in assumeing this wouldn't you then think that the above verses say what Jesus thinks of that?

Crystal,
You brought up the scriptures and posted them I simply was using your idea, (crazy as it is) that because God took the life (you call this murder) of all first borns this some how justifies abortion,.... you still didn't answer my question.
 Did God ever take the life of any first born of a believer? NO......why don't we ask ourselves what caused God to take those lives? Even some of the Isarealites didn't follow the direction so their first borns were dead too. Unbelief, rebellion, doubt, ingnorance caused the death of the first borns not God. God left a way out as he always does, and the unbelievers failed. A murder doesn't give anyone a choice, no one gives the innoncent baby a choice of life or death, and neither do the mothers who abort them or any who believe abortion is a choice.  War, well you signed up you do your job, end of story.

the evening NEWS !!!!>>>>LOL>>>>> YOU got to be kidding, talk about a far reach here, The evening news....you believe  the death of babies are caused by God? Kinda like the headlines of the trash at the check out lines. You don't really believe that do you? You do believe that God is soveign right? He no doubt he allows many thinks we don't understand, abortion for one, but he doesn't kill anything, don't you get it, GOD is GOD, he allows a life to be lost or saved out of our own ingorance, and bad behavior, like drinking and driving a family is hit and some one dies, maybe a baby is dead.......who caused that? You would say God? What about crib deaths.....unexplained, but there is new evidence suggesting that crib death is linked to cigeratte smoking in the home. The scriptures tell US, YOU, ME, those next door, up or down the street WE CAN NOT kill.  Because God is sovereign, God doesn't murder anyone.

 I don't like war but I  agree with the reasons we went to war. (your assumption that I do is dead wrong DEAREST, I didn't sleep for day on end because my son was there) The scriptues tells us there will be times of war.......this is one of them. Islam is an enemy of all CHristians, its their own disbelief in Jesus Christ that has caused this war. Some say oil is the reason, possilby for man, maybe not for God. WE know form Scriptures that God can and has use war to take care of nasty situations like Iraq, this isnt' a war for oil I believe its a war of Alah verse God. Do I like the idea that baby are being killed, hardly. But as the original post suggests Our President didn't kill any babies. HE didn't have our troups dress up like civillians and mix among those babies. Your real beef (besides the war itself) is with Hussein. I'ed like to hear what he has to say as well. There will be deaths of many people in the years to come, you can't deny any of that.......man started this way,,,,, and God is going to end it HIS way and if that means war then so be it. If that means babies lives are lost then so be it, but NOT by abortion, that is cold blooded murder, not an accident caused by war.


Previous questions that you didn't answer. You claim your a marine, what if your were in the marines, would you like to be referred to as a baby killer? .........guess so since you thing abortion is ok.
IF your were President what would you do ? How would you have handled the years of not allowing our inspectors in, or the killing of his own people denying people water, denying food, supporting terrorismm, weapons of mass destruction  etc etc
 
You asked, would GOd use abortion to take the life of one of his enemies....I believe that would be contary to his word so NO, God will never advocate murder.  Abortion is just another act of ignoracne and disobediance and people will be judged accordingly, also for not standing against it...same as performing them yourself.  Through out your post you imply God is a murder, I know its hard to understand but
My point is God didn't take the life of a believers baby becuase of their acts of obediance. Is Iraq following God? Does this justify war?  Yes, is there any point in time when murder is justified NO. But war isn't murder, it is killing, but its not murder.
war and abortion aren't the same thing. As I said in my previous posts put abortion aside here let us concintrate on what the thread intended, except for the maker of this thread has stuck his tail between his legs and run.
WHat do you think we should have done about Hussein?

musicllover  


 

The killing of about 4000 babies a day in this country makes me angry. It sure does. I hope i stay angry about it i hope other folks will see the ugliness of abortion and get angry also.

For me i will not vote for any party or person who believes or supports the killing of the unborn. I am not stopping your right to vote or have your say. My say, on this issue, is a Christian will not support abortion in any form. If by that statment i have said  so-n-so is not Christian so be it. Odd how killing of the unseen is justified.


PS.
 The more i think about this the stronger i feel if the thought of  4000 + a day of discarded unborn babies doesn't make one angry is that person truly alive?

4000 X 365 = 1,460,000   X  20 = 29,200,000.

'Twenty nine million two hundred thousand' someone please tell me the math is wrong.... I have checked it again and i think it is correct. I did not go all the way back to 72 because of weekends etc and i think the 4000 number is a bit higher scary huh ...  What was Stallan's death toll or Saddams of the Kurds, Hitler?  Edamin (sp)  I pray God forgives this country for the killing of what was created in His image. The rest of the world also.

I am sorry musicllover but I don't think we can have this discussion because you don't seem to be able to read correctly. You attribute all sorts of things to me that I didn't say. If you are just going to make things up and claim I said them then I will ignore your replies on this topic.

If you'd like to redo this reply and cut'n'paste or highlight my words then we can go forward.

I hope you will calm down and quote what you would like to reply to.

It is your right to decide that nothing else matters to you but the abortion issue. Fortunately for all of us there are a lot of people who are concerned about other aspects of what our government does. I guess you don't care about the environment, or healthcare or social security or wars... just keep writting in Pat Robertson!   :-X
 

Go ahead and quote my post that states i dont care about nothing but the abortion issue.   I  would love to read it.. I really dislike your kind i have delt with the likes of you for over 50 years.Over the years i have injoyed hearing and reading the circles your kind talk in. I will injoy reading your posts Thanks.

Hi folks,

Just a few points of order here.

Reba:  If you go back and read the last few pages here, it does seem a little like you are only interested in dead babies.  While that is a facinating debate in and of itself, I would like to know more about your thoughts on the war in Iraq, and not how many aborted pregnancies have occured today.  Do you think things are going well over there?  Do you find it troubling that Bush has called off the search for WMD's?  Do you think he should invade Iran, as it was reported in the New Yorker a few days ago?

Musiclover:  You can't be serious.  Suggesting that Islam is the enemy of all christians is perhaps the most perposterous thing I have ever seen written.  I've read a lot about people that think the way you evidently do, but I had hoped that they didn't really exist.  Furthermore, your comment: "I beleive its a war of Alah verse God" (spelling error yours) is just silly on several levels.  One, its not very Christian as you seem to be intimating that other gods do in fact exist, and are now at war with the Christian God.  Two, it perpetuates your ill-founded claim that the war in Iraq is somehow being led by that great soldier of God, G.W.B.

In the end, I think it would be very important for you to make a distinction in your heart between Muslims, and terrorists, because as it stands, now, you seem to be an individual consumed with hate, which is not where a Christian needs to be.  I will pray that you are able to come out of that dark place.

(all other spelling errors, mine)

To me that says I don't care about anything in their platform except their position on abortion. And like I said before, you'll not find a GOP nor DNC candidate drawing that line in the sand. So who ya gonna vote for? Write in Pat...

 :)

circles

Edited to add;
I should thank you, you have given me the next subject for cults........ Islam

OK have it your way, I knew you wouldn't answer. Nothing I post is putting words in your mouth, believe you me there is more than enough coming out of it the way it is. But since you can't or won't answer you act as though I'm the foolish one.

I'm finished with you, in the word of My lord and Savior, it is finished.
musicllover

Brothers and Sisters,

To our regulars here:

By now, it should be painfully obvious that we have several trolls loose on the forum right now. Your discussions with them will not seem right for more than one reason. First, trolls aren't known for much more intelligence than it takes to eat. Beyond that, they are confused. Second, reasonable discussions with others is not on their agenda. Third, they should never be allowed to take a break or rest since they forget everything they've learned between breaks.   ;D  

We have at least 3 trolls on the forum right now, and they all arrived at approximately the same time. They really made it so painfully obvious that I would say they are trolls in training. They aren't smart enough to be graduates of troll boot camp, and I seriously doubt they will graduate without tons of remedial training. They really need to raise the standards for troll recruiting, as these are just short of being as smart as a billiard ball.   ;D

They're cute in a funny sort of way, but they don't make good pets.   ;D  It's absolutely impossible to house-break them.

Moderator

P.S. These are so sad, they're a comedy team. They're here to make fun of us, but things have back-fired. I don't think that I've ever seen a troll team humiliate themselves so quickly and easily. These would be the type that think they are hidden when they put their hands over their eyes.  ;D

hommy,
    ..."You can't be serious.  Suggesting that Islam is the enemy of all christians is perhaps the most perposterous thing I have ever seen written"....

Don't read much do you?
You'll find
          I am serious, it has nothing to do with hate of any person just a faith that deny's Jesus as Lord. The muslim faith is against EVERYTHING that Jesus Christ is and done. Defending their faith is only defending the evil they perpetrate. The twins towers weren't hit by good fairies, they were hit by muslim terrostist who were claiming the destruction for Allah their god. NO, I don't believe all muslim people are evil just what they believe, plain and simply if they die believeing in Allah they will go to hell. I don't see how you can say their faith is ok? Wanna try reading some really  "perposterous" find out what they believe. And then tell me that Islam isn't an enemy of Christianity. we will know them by the fruits they bare, IF they can't say Jesus is Lord they are enemies of God..., you'll not find a devoted muslim who will. That doesn't mean they are all going to run around killing Christians that is not what I mean so don't put words in my mouth. I go by what the word says, anything preach or taught that is different that what is taught in the Holy Bible is of the devil.
     Yes there other other gods out there, only they are of the devil. The Allah that the muslims believe is a different God than what Christians believe in. Allah is based on a works or pryamid kind of faith, the more you do the better you can become, and killing Christians is at the top of the "to do" list for the muslim terrorist. Do you believe that the muslim faith is good, because that puts a whole new light on why you also are against the war in Iraq.
      Please dont pray for me, I don't need curses.
   Back to the main idea of the thread. Lots of rabbit trails gonna on here.
     JESUS IS MY LORD,
musicllover  

This is a simple question but I think will reveal a lot.

Do you like/dislike Bush? why?

musiclover...
 you are right on about Islam!



 Exactly what will it reveal?

Bronzesnake

But, but, but, but,...... can we keep them for a while. They are fun to play with.

Dreamweaver quote...


 Yes, can we?  pleeeease? Otherwise I will have to amuse myself with a piece of shiny string!  :P

Bronzesnake

Thakk you Bronze, I take that as a great compliment coming form a good teacher like you.
musicllover

musiclover quote...

 
 Please...tell me more!

Just kidding my sister...you're far too good to me!  :D

Bronzesnake

With you, it's a piece of shiny string. With me, it's a pen, that glows funny colors. :P

Mark 7:37 People were overwhelmed with amazement. “He has done everything well,” they said. “He even makes the deaf hear and the mute speak.”
Bob

 A pen that glows funny colors you say???!!!
Me thinks me wants one!!!  :D

Bronzesnake.

They are, 4.99 at the Dollar store. ;D

I play with a top that has  "Jesus loves me" written on it.
That way when I feel that I am going in circles I can really go in circles.

Oh, I think want one! That way, I can go around in circles too!  ;D

Would that make us like a troll?  ???

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v605/DreamWeaver000/BWAAAAAA.gif) No it would take more then that, to make us trolls. Trolls are a class of their own. We, as Christians are a different class. (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v605/DreamWeaver000/dance.gif)

I like our class. The instructor is a lot nicer.

AMEN!!

Trolls also like to  (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v605/DreamWeaver000/deadhorse.gif). ;D

Now I like that smiley. The shoe sure fits.  ;D

Hey Bronzesnake
This was only part of a series of questions which eventually would have lead to: do you know the motives of GWB?

I'll go ahead with the explanation.


CrystalClear most likely would have said...I dont like Bush. Why? Because he declared an unjustified war.

A war for oil? A war to destroy all muslims? A war for power? it's not clear.


The question is "Why don't we call for the president to stop killing IRAQI babies?"

OKAY

This is the justification of the war. But what justification are we talking about? Legalistics? Ethics?

The Nazis tortured and killed many Jews. Doing medical experiments on live people. Forcing people to work to death. Sticking people in ovens. Torture. Please imagine what they went through. They took away their dignity. A rich jew family were forced to wash the sidewalk with their tongues. People were forced to stand naked in the snow while the officers were in heavy coats with hot coffee.

The officers excuse their actions by saying it was LAW 'we were ordered'.
This was law but clearly not ethical.
What would you want if you were one of these Jews? What would you want someone out there to do?


Now we know that law is not always ethical. Surely, this war was not justified in terms of the UN and whatever else is out there trying to keep peace in the world. We know that the president had ulterior motives for going to war other than the WMDs (for no clear evidence of WMDs were ever discovered). The WMD were simply something the president needed to justisfy the war. However, this is only necessary because of a law under some other rule. The question was 'Is Saddam a threat to the US?' ...only if he had WMD.

So what was the motive for going to war? You think you may know...but I am very sure you have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA. I know that you have doubts yourself. The government is very good at keeping things secret. Is there anyone who knew that Saddam could have possibly been assasinated by CIA if the Geneva Conventions were not implemented so soon? I know that if that had happen...no one would be complaining as they are right now.

I bring up the Law vs Ethics for good reason. Let's say this was a war for oil. Let's go back to the old testament. Do we not see many wars where God lead Israel to conquer a land not their own? I do not see anyone complaining that the war was unjustified! But I can see why. We are in a new time under a new secular law. We are in a world where people think absolute peace can be attained (on EARTH). But let's look at the ethics.

I have a question for you. Would you like to live in Iraq under Saddam's rule? If you were, would you care who waged a war on Saddam no matter what cause or motive, just or unjust? If you have compassion on the muslims who wanted no part of the war...think again. They have been taught that if they fight to death in the name of Allah they will automatically go to heaven. Why do you think there are still attacks? These people hate peace and love war.

I was happy to see that Saddam was taken out. That these people of Iraq were freed from a reign of evil. Was this war justified? Under what criteria? To me, I'm glad for the war. I'm glad that Jesus Christ can reach the ears of those people. I know that in the hearts of these Iraqi people, they had the same yearnings as the Jews in the Holocaust; someone to free them from evil.

So what is it with all this anti-war?


I live in Copperas Cove, Texas which is located within a mile of Fort Hood. So 90% of the families (probably more) are affiliated with the military. At school, when the war occured, almost all families had either a mom, dad, sister, or brother deployed (and are still being deployed) to Iraq. Teachers, friends, and churches everywhere did not complain about the war at all. Instead everyone was saying "support our troops!", "Pray for our troops".  Only the secular families complained.

I would have joined the Navy if it were not for my parents forcing me into college. The influence of military was very strong there. I had taken the official ASVAB and everything. A moment away from going to school for nuclear propulsion systems. This was during the war. I would have been happy to have been part of the war effort. Am I afraid of death? No! "For to me, to live is Christ, to die is gain." That is why only the secular families were complaining.  :)

I also noticed the otherside of my original question...

Why do you like/dislike Bush?

I like Bush because......

To say the least, he is one president that has pushed Christian values. However we are very aware of his folly. What do I make of this?

I can tell you that no one is perfect. As a personal opinion, I do not think Bush is a competant and smart man. However, too many people give too much credit, and likewise, too much criticism to the president. The president does not do everything on his own; there are many many people working for him under him. Anything good or bad that happens is not always consequent of him; however, indirectly involved for he choses a lot of pple for his office.

Nonetheless, no one is perfect. I am not too good at history, but I am sure that many presidents have been infamous for certain actions: Bill Clinton, Richard Nixon, and probably more that we are not aware of. Do I know the motives and intent of Bush's actions? I dont. If I did I would be a better judge of how good of a president he is. I do feel that he is a strong supporter of our Lord Jesus Christ but is not competant for a responsibility such as a president.

 Hello Felix.

 that was a well thought out couple of posts my friend.

 I'll tell you why I believe Bush went to war in Iraq.

 First of all, Saddam gave the U.S. many reasons to go in and take him out. I won't go into detail because everyone knows about the twelve years of beligerance toward the U.N. sanctions. Most people know that Saddam had an active nuclear weapons program going on when the Israelis bombed them. I also believe Saddam had WMD's and the French, Germans and Russians know about it because they supplied the weapons and technology. I believe (and there is pretty damning proof) that the Russians helped scuttle the weapons out of Iraq and into Syria. Russia are not our friends.

 I believe the only way the U.S. could see making the world a relatively safer place, was to solve the Middle east problems - Iraq, Syria, Iran, Afghanistan etc. These dictatorial countries must be "cleansed" and made into domocracies. It doesn't sound pretty, it's certainly not politically correct, but then again, most sensable things are not politically correct these days are they?

 Bush has his sights set on Iran now. Everyone with a half a brain in their skulls knows that Iran has an active nuclear weapons program going on.

  Findings and Initial Assessment

32. Iran has failed to meet its obligations under its Safeguards Agreement with respect to the reporting
of nuclear material, the subsequent processing and use of that material and the declaration of facilities
where the material was stored and processed. These failures, and the actions taken thus far to correct
them, can be summarized as follows:
(a) Failure to declare the import of natural uranium in 1991, and its subsequent transfer
for further processing.
On 15 April 2003, Iran submitted ICRs on the import of the UO2, UF4 and UF6. Iran
has still to submit ICRs on the transfer of the material for further processing and use.
(b) Failure to declare the activities involving the subsequent processing and use of the
imported natural uranium, including the production and loss of nuclear material,
where appropriate, and the production and transfer of waste resulting therefrom.
Iran has acknowledged the production of uranium metal, uranyl nitrate, ammonium
uranyl carbonate, UO2 pellets and uranium wastes. Iran must still submit ICRs on
these inventory changes.
(c) Failure to declare the facilities where such material (including the waste) was
received, stored and processed.
On 5 May 2003, Iran provided preliminary design information for the facility JHL.
Iran has informed the Agency of the locations where the undeclared processing of the
imported natural uranium was conducted (TRR and the Esfahan Nuclear Technology
Centre), and provided access to those locations. It has provided the Agency access to
the waste storage facility at Esfahan, and has indicated that access would be provided
to Anarak, as well as the waste disposal site at Qom.
(d) Failure to provide in a timely manner updated design information for the MIX Facility
and for TRR.
Iran has agreed to submit updated design information for the two facilities.
(e) Failure to provide in a timely manner information on the waste storage at Esfahan and
at Anarak.
Iran has informed the Agency of the locations where the waste has been stored or
discarded. It has provided the Agency access to the waste storage facility at Esfahan,
and has indicated that access will be provided to Anarak.
33. Although the quantities of nuclear material involved have not been large 6 , and the material would
need further processing before being suitable for use as the fissile material component of a nuclear
explosive device, the number of failures by Iran to report the material, facilities and activities in
question in a timely manner as it is obliged to do pursuant to its Safeguards Agreement is a matter of
concern. While these failures are in the process of being rectified by Iran, the process of verifying the
correctness and completeness of the Iranian declarations is still ongoing.
 6 The total amount of material, approximately 1.8 tonnes, is 0.13 effective kilograms of uranium. This is,
however, not insignificant in terms of a State’s ability to conduct nuclear research and development activities.

 To be continued...

I am sorry musicllover but I don't think we can have this discussion because you don't seem to be able to read correctly. You attribute all sorts of things to me that I didn't say. If you are just going to make things up and claim I said them then I will ignore your replies on this topic.

If you'd like to redo this reply and cut'n'paste or highlight my words then we can go forward.

I hope you will calm down and quote what you would like to reply to.


OK have it your way, I knew you wouldn't answer. Nothing I post is putting words in your mouth, believe you me there is more than enough coming out of it the way it is. But since you can't or won't answer you act as though I'm the foolish one.

I'm finished with you, in the word of My lord and Savior, it is finished.
musicllover
Ah, but I did answer you. If you choose to concede then you may do so but don't pretend I didn't offer you the opportunity to continue. Just in case you really can't understand I'll give you one of several examples from your reply above:

You asked, would GOd use abortion to take the life of one of his enemies....

I asked no such thing. There's my Proof.

6 June 2003
Page 8
34. The Agency is continuing to pursue the open questions, including through:
(a) The completion of a more thorough expert analysis of the research and development
carried out by Iran in the establishment of its enrichment capabilities. This will require
the submission by Iran of a complete chronology of its centrifuge and laser enrichment
efforts, including, in particular, a description of all research and development activities
carried out prior to the construction of the Natanz facilities. As agreed to by Iran, this
process will also involve discussions in Iran between Iranian authorities and Agency
enrichment experts on Iran’s enrichment programme, and visits by the Agency experts
to the facilities under construction at Natanz and other relevant locations.
(b) Further follow-up on information regarding allegations about undeclared enrichment
of nuclear material, including, in particular, at the Kalaye Electric Company. This will
require permission for the Agency to carry out environmental sampling at the
workshop located there.
(c) Further enquiries about the role of uranium metal in Iran’s nuclear fuel cycle.
(d) Further enquiries about Iran’s programme related to the use of heavy water, including
heavy water production and heavy water reactor design and construction.
35. The Director General has repeatedly encouraged Iran to conclude an Additional Protocol. Without
such protocols in force, the Agency’s ability to provide credible assurances regarding the absence of
undeclared nuclear activities is limited. This is particularly the case for States, like Iran, with extensive
nuclear activities and advanced fuel cycle technologies. In the view of the Director General, the
adherence by Iran to an Additional Protocol would therefore constitute a significant step forward. The
Director General will continue to keep the Board informed of developments.

 The above report was taken from the IAEA (international atomic energy agency)
 The entire report can be read here...

 http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/report/2003/gov2003-40.pdf (http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/report/2003/gov2003-40.pdf)

Bronzesnake

 

I find it curious how quickly you and Dreamweaver slap the label of TROLL on those who disagree with your point of view. I'm sorry, I thought debate meant that there would be differing points of view.
So anyone who disagrees with you is trolling? I don't understand why you have so much fear of opposing opinions. God tests us all in the way most appropriate and Satan temps us all in similar fashion... I wonder if God is testing your grace or if Satan is tempting you with power... Either way I'd not be so quick to judge other Christians just because their opinion is different from yours.

Luke 6:37 - Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

 Some people might think I'm war hungry, but I'm not. I don't like war, especially the kind of war we find ourselves facing today. I honestly believe there has been a fundamental change in warfare. It's happened consistently throughout history, and the countries that adjust tactics accordingly are the countries that prevail. It's a fact that the U.S. military once believed air power was a total waste of time, and a poor tactical weapon...ever heard of General Billy Mitchell?

  General William 'Billy' Mitchell (1879-1936) was the renowned pioneer of US air power and generally regarded as one of the most far-sighted military leaders of his age.  Immediately after World War l, he predicted that air bombardment would dominate warfare in the future. In the early 1920s he horrified and angered US military strategists with his claim that bombs could sink ships and predicted the attack on Pearl Harbour 20 years later. When they refused to believe him he successfully bombed and sank warships to prove his point. Furious at his outspoken criticism of out-dated military thinking, he was court-marshalled for 'insubordination'. He never lived to see his predictions proved correct but was posthumously awarded a special Congressional Medal of Honour in 1948.

 Mitchell made a "ludicrous" claim - today, many people are again making "ludicrous" claims, that if these rogue nations are permitted to continue unabated, they will supply terrorists with the weapons and technology, and one day a mushroom cloud will rise above our homes - one day a man driving a car will reach his arm out the window and spray an aerosol mist into the air, and soon afterwards thousands will drop dead.

 This is the reality of the times my friends. We can not afford to be complacent. We either act before it happens of we react afterwards...if we can.

 Bronzesnake

Bronzesnake, at the end of the day we live in a world community. Travel and communication has connected all of us to each other. War should absolutely be the LAST resort as a means of enforcing world law. War should not even be the first action when attacked. Diplomacy first to save precious life. I hear you when you say that Saddam refused to go along with UN mandates. The problem with us going to war is that those were the UN mandates not the US mandates and we should have stayed with the UN until the UN decided it was time to use force. Remember that we were NOT attacked by IRAQ and therefore had no justification to take the UN sanctions into our own hands and use force. We claimed the UN wouldn't do anything about Saddam and it was just too dangerous to let him keep making his WMDs. So we take matters into our own hands and find no WMDs... oops, maybe the UN was right about that but we can still fall back on the "Saddam was an evil dictator".
Bottom line is that it is NOT the place of the US to go around the world with our military "cleansing" evil dictators. You see the problem with that is that there are a lot of people out there in the world who don't think it's our place to do so and become VERY angry when we invade or threaten their country. There are a lot more of them than us and with a world view of "cleansing" we are going to end up like the Romans...gone.
Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

What you fail to realize my friend is that killing the friends and families of these people will not prevent them from being hostile to us. Showing them respect, compassion and the way to salvation, feeding the hungry and clothing the poor is the way to peace. If you keep shoveling dirt on their people they will continue to look for ways to take revenge.
9/11 was Osama's revenge for the US policies in the middle east. Whether we believe that to be Right or wrong makes no difference to them. It's a dangerous world and we need to be careful how we treat others because violence begets violence.

Peace through the love of Jesus Christ!

 That attitude might work in a perfect world my friend. Do you honestly believe these poor Iraqi people are just dumb third world folk who enjoy being crushed under the weight of brutal dictatorships? They are terrified to speak out against the insurgents - insurgents who mix in with the population - who take over homes under threat of killing the entire family if they even suspect collaboration.
 Listen to American Iraqis my friend, they overwhelmingly support this action, they are intelligent people who want freedom and democracy. They can remain Muslim or whatever else they want to be, but they deserve to live in relative safety and they deserve a say in their lives. This freedom doesn't come easy my friend, and you know that. They are not able to fight for themselves right now, and so we are fighting for them so that one day we can all have peace and safety, in a world free of brutal dictators.


 Exactly what did we do to the Japanese to make them attack Pearl Harbor?

 Exactly what US policies made Osama attack the U.S.? Why didn't any legitimate leaders of these poorly done to countries attack us? What about the policies of the leaders of these countries toward their own people? Why didn't Osama attack them? You make Osama out to be a Robin Hood my friend, that's ridiculous. His intentions are not nobel, and I submit that he is far more evil and his policies are far more destructive and selfish than any the U.S. might have.

 He is a religious Islamic fanatic bent on becoming a king in his own oil rich Islamic dictatorship, where street cops can beat and kill women for allowing her human tent to accidently drop and expose her bare arm, which as we know is evil and impure, and punishable by severe public beating or death. Don't you remember what Afghanistan was like when he was in control there? Did you not see the public executions which took place on a soccer field, where people were arbitrarily condemned for the slightest infraction, either real or imagined, then slowly strangled to death by short hanging or shot in the head?

 This type of evil has been allowed to exist long enough. These freaks are actively seeking to murder you and your loved ones Crystal, and the reality is that there are certain countries which are all to eager to help them out. We must clean this boil off the face of the earth, the sooner the better.

 Your comparison to the Roman empire is not defendable my friend. They were bent on conquest and world domination. The U.S. and their allies are defending your freedom and safety, even though you don't agree with it.

Bronzesnake

Look here, an adult discussion! Praise the lord it actually can be done!

In your own words Crystal,

 "... Does God allow abortions to happen as part of his plan; it's not inconceivable is it? Perhaps these children would grow up to be enemies of God, I can't say...."

 You asked a question and then answered your own question with ..... ITS NOT INCONCEIVABLE IS IT?.....

 Possilbe you need to reread my intention here Crystal. I posted my understanding of why God took the life of the first borns, thier deaths were caused by disobedience of the people. God gave each house the oppertunity to save their children, they didnt' follow his mandates. There own disobediance caused the 1st childs death, NOT GOD. He set the plan in motion and the people were to carry out certain direction, some didn't.

The part that makes no sense at all is when you implied that the killing of babies is not a sin,  
quote...." I don't think the Bible tells us that killing babies is a sin, in fact quite the contrary:.......Psalms 137......, and Exodus 12....
Your trying to justify abortion with scripture. I don't think anyone would believe that scritpure says abortion is ok as you have suggested with this remark.

Last but not least,
You have no right to say anything for or against the war, or the Pres, you didnt' vote.
again I quote you......" I refused to take part in the 2004 election based on the character of BOTH candidates....."
Your lack of a vote makes everything you say null and void, you gave up any right to complain about what the President does or doesnt' do when you didn't vote.

musicllover

Crystal quote...

 See, you do believe Iraqi people are just dumb third world folk who enjoy being crushed under the weight of brutal dictatorships?



 You've been listening to frightened Iraqi people who would be shot if they said anything other than that in public. Wait until things settle down, and yes, it will take time, but these people are no different than you and I Crystal, they want to be free and democratic, they want the fanatical murderers out. If the U.S. and allies pulled out, the insurgents would crush any hope these people have and a new Saddam would take over. These people aren't as dumb as you make them out to be Crystal.



 That proves my point. Iraqis who have lived both lives want democracy. I disagree with you that the Iraqis in Iraq are too dumb to know what democracy is. Saddam and his brutal government were in total control of the country and the population. Those folks are not in any position to fight for themselves, and they certainly have no access to the oil, you are either being disingenuous or you are very naive.
 Is it not the duty of the strong and wealthy to take care of the weak and downtrodden my friend?

Exactly what did we do to the Japanese to make them attack Pearl Harbor?



 yes, it sounds like when Saddam attacked Kuwait.

Exactly what US policies made Osama attack the U.S.?


 Please be specific, that's just rhetoric.

Why didn't any legitimate leaders of these poorly done to countries attack us?


 Well, if the U.S. is so evil with their policies toward these countries, then why didn't these countries attack the U.S.? Which countries are we talking about here anyway, and what is it the U.S. has done, which would cause Osatan to attack the U.S. for them... Specifically?

What about the policies of the leaders of these countries toward their own people? Why didn't Osama attack them?


 What a load of hyperbole! Osama chose to attack the Saudis instead of Saddam?  ??? Ya, OK!

You make Osama out to be a Robin Hood my friend, that's ridiculous. His intentions are not noble, and I submit that he is far more evil and his policies are far more destructive and selfish than any the U.S. might have.


 I'm sorry, I thought you said Osama attacked the U.S. because of their foreign policies. ::)

He is a religious Islamic fanatic bent on becoming a king in his own oil rich Islamic dictatorship, where street cops can beat and kill women for allowing her human tent to accidentally drop and expose her bare arm, which as we know is evil and impure, and punishable by severe public beating or death. Don't you remember what Afghanistan was like when he was in control there? Did you not see the public executions which took place on a soccer field, where people were arbitrarily condemned for the slightest infraction, either real or imagined, then slowly strangled to death by short hanging or shot in the head?


Don't kid yourself my friend, Osama was calling the shots in Afghanistan


 You cannot be serious!!! You cannot compare this to the crusades...you cannot even compare the crusades to the inquisitions, it's ludicrous my friend! You'd better brush up on your historical facts.

 Do you honestly believe that Osatan has no aspirations of being the head of his own oil rich Islamic country???



 "WTF"??? Come on man, do you have to use that kind of language? This "we're creating more terrorists" argument is just foolish rhetoric, and you know it...or at least you should know it. Hitler recruited hundreds of thousands of men women and children after the war began. Do you mean to tell me we shouldn't have gotten into that war either? Our enemies will gather, so we shouldn't fight them...Puh-lease!


 Did we catch every Nazi after WWII? Osama is hiding like all cowards do. He's most likely in the mountains between Afghanistan and Pakistan; you could put 100,000 troops up there and still never find him. We're hunting him down my friend, that's all we can do.

 
 Ya, let's wait until they strike first...oh wait a minute, we tried that already - let's never wait until we get hit first again.

Your comparison to the Roman Empire is not defendable my friend. They were bent on conquest and world domination. The U.S. and their allies are defending your freedom and safety, even though you don't agree with it.



 The only similarities are the fact that there was war.

 
Hyperbole...very disingenuous statement and you know it my friend.


Bronzesnake

Why do you keep trying to put those words into my mouth? Please refrain from lieing about me. I can't be much more stern on this.
What I said is what I said, if you are looking for some other meaning then I'll give it to you myself.
They are saddled with centuries of false religious dogma that keeps them fearful of authority. Christianity has broken free of the oppression and tyranny of the fundamentalist mindset. This has allowed free thinking and hence democracy to flourish. Progressive Christianity (more in harmony with the NT) is the norm and the fundamnetalist is the minority. These people need to escape their religious chains and free their minds in order to understand democracy and free societies. Until then their religious leaders can draw more heavily on the population to create these insurgents. Only with progressive thought can freedom be attained. Our founding fathers wrote on this subject quite heavily, you should try reading some of it.


Again with the "dumb" statement which I never said nor implied. Ignorance and stupidity are different, look it up...  ???
Yes time will tell...lots of time.
Most of the US allies have already pulled out. http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,12015162%255E1702,00.html
I can't find the figures for what kind of support each is giving, which I've seen somewhere, it's pretty pathetic... some of them are like 100 security forces or 10 consultants or just money...


I have already explained why the Iraqi people have not been able to get rid of Saddam and create a democracy on their own.
Saddam is gone, they have access to the oil now. What's stopping them? Why aren't they flooding the streets with help for our brave soldiers? Why are we STILL doing EVERYTHING for them? I have outlined the reasons previously. It is you being disingenuous or at the very least pertinacious.


Sounds like the US invading Iraq too, talk about being disingenuous...

I'm not going to do all your work for you. I gave you a brief commnetary below, do your own research.


Poorly done? Our support for Irsael against Palestine. Our dealings with the Saudis... it's not a matter of 'what we did' to these countries it's our foreign policies. You know exactly what I'm talking about and are just being duplicitous with this entire reply.I'm not trying to advocate what Osama has done or is doing but you seem to think he just woke up and decided to attack the US one day and THAT is simply you being either disingenuous or naive.


You've used this empty question about 4 times now and I will say for the last time in this thread that if you don't understand what part of our foreign policies that have most of the world at the least a little miffed with us and at the most so angry that they fly planes into the Twin Towers then you need to do some research.
If your claim is that Al Quaeda hasn't performed terrorist attacks on the Saudis or elsewhere in the world then I say you are a bold faced liar or at the very least too uninformed to continue this discussion.
 

There you go again. YES. Osama doesn't care about Saddam, he's not concerned with oppressive governments. He's a religious fanatic and the biggest threat to his religion is western values taking hold in his homeland. Therefore he has turned to Jihad to drive out the infidel. Are you really ignorant of world issues or are you just playing devils advocate?


I did, I didn't say he was right to do so and your assertation to that is without merit.


Is this something you heard your Pastor say or something? Whoever told you this is a propaganda peddlar and if you came upon it by your own thought process then you are severely lacking in political knowlege. Osama is on a Jihad and not trying to become a king. He is already (was until he was disowned for speaking out against the royal family) extremely wealthy and can enjoy that type of society in plenty of places in the middle east.


Then why not just take over and be king? You're foolish ideas are without merit.


You miss the point completely and I'm seriously questioning your ability to continue this discussion. You aren't grasping simple idoligical arguments and seem completely uninformed about this topic. You are running on empty with no understanding of world politics in relation to this topic. EVERYTHING you are saying is regurgitated propaganda.


#1, we didn't actively try to "catch every Nazi after WW2" although the Jews did try.
#2, if it takes 100,000 or 200,000 why aren't we doing what it takes to find him instead of trying to implant democracy in Iraq? We need those troops to find Osama FIRST!

 
 
Hey here's a better idea, how about we try to bring peace to the world instead of war. Secure our borders so it's difficult for the nut jobs to get here and work on our foreign policies to cut down on the number of nut jobs we create in other countries. Wow, what an idea.
What's your idea again? Oh yeah, just take our military around the world, invading sovereign countries and forcing our version of government on their people. Yeah, that will stop people from hating us. They call that war mongering, how about now that we understand the threat before we try to change the way we interact with the world and try to find peaceful solutions and use force as a last resort.


And how are we doing this? Let me type slowly for you so you understand. By invading other countries and installing our form of government. You don't get it do you?

Obviously we can not continue with this discussion because you are getting less and less able to maintain a valid discussion. You are resorting to simply dismissing the arguments I bring while presenting none of your own. You only have propaganda as information which you are recycling. You need to stop getting your info only from other fundamentalists and right wing media and try to find some objective sources of information. Any information...

Crystal quote...


 Crystal got quite offended when he precieved others were attacking him for having an opposing viewpoint.

 Crystal response to my post...

 

 Oh please point me to your "credible",  "propaganda free" sources so I can be wise and correct just like you my friend.  :P

Hypocrite.

Bronzesnake
 

I was making a speculation to ilicit a response from you which is part'n'parcel in a discussion.


So the victims had a choice... interesting take on that. Those firstborn which were killed had the choice and they chose disobedience... I've never heard that before, go figure.



I didn't imply I made a hypothesis based on those passages. I don't actually believe that those passages speak to abortion per se, but that the killing of babies is not unjustified by God in certain situations.



That's not the first time I've heard that one. How about this, YOU and anyone who voted for this president have no right to complain. Anyone who didn't vote for this president (including those who didn't vote for either) DO have the right to complain. We have the right to complain becuase this is fundamental to our constitution but coming down to your level, we have the right because the person you helped put in office creates things to complain about.  

circles

But the truth is we aren't the ones complainging you are, and what a shame your opinion doesn't count, or maybe I should have said DIDN'T count.

musicllover

PS, TROLLS DON"T LIKE TO EAT THEIR OWN WORDS......

CrystalClear,

FORMAL PUBLIC WARNING!

I've already removed cursing from one of your posts, and I sent you a very blunt warning that cursing is not permitted on Christians Unite. This obviously includes abbreviated or fill in the blank cursing.

This is a public warning to you about cursing on Christians Unite, and it will be your last one. You will simply be gone with the next instance of cursing.

You have been allowed to troll, play your games with Christians, and state opinions that are contrary to what Christians believe, BUT YOU WILL NOT BE ALLOWED TO VIOLATE THE FORUM RULES!  This represents your final warning. Your next violation of forum rules will result in a magic act - YOU WILL DISAPPEAR!  I hope this is "Crystal Clear".

Moderator

Very intelligent, slow down my head is spinning!  :-[

I was making a speculation to ilicit a response from you which is part'n'parcel in a discussion.  

OH I see you can speculate, to ilicit conversation only when that conversation goes your way and is only understood they way you want it understood. MY opinion it is INconceivable that God would use murder, which is contrary to his word.

I don't see your point, I didn't say you couldn't ilicit conversation. I was simply responding to your query.


 
So the victims had a choice... interesting take on that. Those firstborn which were killed had the choice and they chose disobedience... I've never heard that before, go figure.

I'm not surprised that would mean that you actually read the bible.

So you hold fast to the claim that the firstborn we are talking about were able to choose and made that choice for which they were killed by God?

OOKAY, what ever you want, you did begin to speak some truth with...."I don't think", which is the root of our problem here.  

So you have nothing valid to add. I suppose to you that means you should just attack me.  ::)    <---that's me not suprized.


Actually it did count. There are more of us who didn't vote than those who did. I would say that's a pretty big message to both parties that their candidates all stink.


P.S.
Post script is 2 words so when you type PS you should put the dots after the letters. Also it's 3 dots to symbolize "etc." Like this: Schools out...

Oh no! evolution is real! Crystal changed from a somewhat intelligent person who was often wrong, into a goofball!  :D :P :P :P

Bronzesnake

The difference is that you are no longer participating in a valid discussion. You are just making up junk and repeating the same old tired propaganda. If you'd like to present some factual statements I'd be willing to listen.

 Oh the irony!!

Hey, ever see that movie...banned man walking. :P

Bronzesnake

EXACTLY!!!  IRAQ did NOT ATTACK US  FINALLY A POST WORTH READING...*ROLLS EYES*

56 Percent in Survey Say Iraq War Was a Mistake

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A14266-2004Dec20.html

President Bush heads into his second term amid deep and growing public skepticism about the Iraq war, with a solid majority saying for the first time that the war was a mistake and most people believing that Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld should lose his job, according to a new Washington Post-ABC News poll.

LOL! Bronzesnake it might be more productive to stick your tongue on a frozen pole!  ;D

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v311/randers/dont-feed-the-trolls.jpg)


I think they're multiplying!

 ;D   ;D  YES!, but they are self-destructive and will thin themselves out. The survivors will go back under the bridge to the darkness they crave. Who knows, maybe civilization can find a productive use for them some day.

Crystalmuddy,
            IF you could only read my response you would also know that I never said the baby had a choice BUT there parents did.

I will paste and copy my response to you that you seem to be having a problem understanding ...sigh....
God did not murder the first borns he did allow their death, he did but the plan in motion and still he gave the people guidlines to keep the death angel from taking the life of their first born.

I am not sure what your problem is with the lack of obediance on the part of the PARENTS that caused the death of their first borns, or even facing the fact that abortion is murder, except you want to keep stirring the stink. I am weary of this, I truly am sorry that you have the idea that God kills babies, allows the killing of babies, or God has no problems with abortion, and finally God just lets the abortionist take care of his enemies for him we can't forget that (its not inconceivable).....

musicllover

almost forgot, that is s-u-p-r-i-s-e-d, unless your Gomer Pile,
P.S.... your a troll, how is that false teacher?

Musiclover,

Sister, we know that Almighty God does not have everlasting mercy and patience with those who defy and disobey Him. The record of the Great Flood is only a small example of God's Wrath. All of the examples of God's Wrath in the past are tiny compared to what is to come. There are many who appear to laugh in HIS FACE while they defy HIM. Their judgment will be beyond human imagination.

Our Heavenly Father is absolute RIGHTEOUSNESS, and HE should be feared along with our love. We are made fit for inheritance ONLY because of the precious BLOOD of JESUS. We actually deserve the terrible Wrath of Almighty God, but JESUS CHRIST has rescued us from the curse of sin and death. The day will come when those who walk in darkness will face HIS terrible Wrath for eternity. Those who love JESUS and have HIM in their hearts have already been rescued from the terrible wrath that will most certainly come. The teaching of the Cross is foolishness to some, but to us, JESUS and the CROSS are the reality of HOPE that is within us, eternal life with our Lord and Saviour forever.

Those who laugh at and defy Almighty God are objects of great pity.

Love In Christ,
Tom

I Peter 3:18  For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

I love how trolls automatically go, and quote trolls that have vanished!

Hi all,

I have only had the chance to post a couple of times here, and so I guess my question should be directed at BEP.

I'm new here, and am a little unaware of all of this "troll" stuff.  But with that aside, it seems as though that is the name you give people who debate good Christian issues within this forum.  I don't mean to be aggresive, but as I read through many different debates, it seems as though you, as the moderator of a debate forum, are decidedly anti-debate.  I have read few, if any instances where you have been supportive of a Christian who has posted a point of view that strays in any degree from your own, which seems to reduce this "debate" into little more than mutual congratulation for you and several like-minded individuals.  Perhaps my interpretation of God's word is flawed, but I've always thought of my faith as one that is open to question, open to the views of others, and most of all driven by love as opposed to fear and hate.  I trully believe that you have the opportunity to do something incredible in God's name here, which is why I beleive I was drwn here in the first place.  I sincerely wish that you and some of your memebers embrace the challenge and the brilliance of debate, as opposed to the apparant current practice of labbeling and worst of all, playing a dangerous game of holier than thou.

cheers,

Thom

Thommy, they aren't playing a game of holier than thou.  You can debate they just don't want there to be a war.  There is a difference between debate and trying to mow someone over.  As Christians I believe that we should discuse things in calm, nonargumentitive manner.  Not to single anyone out and see how small we can make them feel.  This is NOT directed to attack you, but to show you my veiws on debate.  It shouldn't be a game of "Yay I won!!!" but something we can pull and learn from.

God bless,
Kris

Thommy,
            I try very hard not to get personal in my debates, I simple would like to exchange idea and opinions, its when the opposing view starts to belittle the scriptures, Jesus Christ, twisting words, reading your mind, begin to get personal that is what makes a troll. I come to learn and teach what I can as I understand it, none of us has all the answers, but there are some really smart people here for or against your own personal ideas, and then again you have those who want to argue and cause trouble,(a troll). THere are ways to agree to disagree with out the attacks. Granted its not always easy to understand what a person intent is, or what they really meant or was thinking and that can cause problems but when its explained and still the other person will not listen they become a troll.
I like to have debates, the chance to learning etc etc. But some can't seem to do that, I'll admit I get aggressive when it becomes my god is better than your GOd. As a Christian I do have a right to defend the word, and in this particular debate the life of the unborn. I will do that at all cost, the attacks on my grammer, or spelling that is just childish, so I play with it sometimes, and I'm sure that doesnt' always help, but I'm still very serious about any false teaching.
        As for our mod.'s I appreciate all they do to keep the forum Christ like. They understand the word, and DO defend it. This is not a one man show, there are several moderators here, which makes for a great balance, beside the owner of the site, and everything goes thru him as well, does it mean they defend it the way the understand it,probably so far I have agree with their defense of the word. I have been to other so called Christian sites, who allow anyone to post, NASTY and NOT Christ like, false teaching flying right and left, the truth of Gods word was lost in all the trash, another board I belonged to was mostly non rapture believers run by 3 mod, but 2 where married to each other, so tech 2 mod, on a world wide board, thousand and thousand posted, when I tried to report the abuse (cussing, downing Jesus, personal attack and threats) my posts were never responded too, the owner was gone, or possobly never recieved them since some of them were pm from on site...funny how one mod always knew when I did that not sure how that worked. The Mod claimed to be a Christian, but believed in evolution. Talk about OXY-MORON and if I posted anything to do with rapture she'd would blew me out of the water with her I'm "moderator" here and if you continue to post, When I tried to descuss creation with a evolutioninist the mod defended his personal attacks on the word!....... I would get so frustrated I did loose my cool and begin to post like everyone else. NOT GOOD nasty is contagious, it was like I caught the, if you can't beat up, join em desease....when I realized that I resigned. That won't happen here and I am so thankful.  
    I hope I'm not speaking out of turn but if you want to debate do so, just don't begin to twist the word and get personal. If you want to truly argue or get nasty there are several thousands of site to go to.
     I would find it very interesting to be able to speak to atheist, or muslims, agnostics, etc etc if they would come here willing to learn and not try to teach, or blast Christ, it would defaintly have to be on my turf, where the playing field is build on Christ. Troulbe is most do come here to, convert, or defend their faith which does cause troulbe cause I'll defend mine too.
     blessings,
musicllover

Thommy,

Hi and welcome....

One the question of debate and trolls around here..... Our brother Ollie has a different view then most here... You might try reading his posts and making a comparison to the 'troll' posts. When one is around for a while you can see the difference. I disagree with Ollie often and have 'done battle' with him but it is a battle for 'truth' on both sides not a battle for ' I am right you are wrong' I listen to Ollie because of the way he presents his views...
 
Opposing views are allowed here in many forms. The view i hold on the Revelation/ Daniel is about a 180 from most here yet i am not called a 'troll' .... Least i hope not :P... Some folks are in attack mode  and know to divide is to conquer .

 It's not that hard to distinguish from a person who is legitimately debating and one who is simply trying to start fights. Sometimes it's obvious from the first post, and other times it takes a while, but they always expose themselves - name calling - swearing - belittling - changing positions frequently in order to cause derision - and outright liars who pretend to be Christian simply to mock and get their jollies. These are known as Trolls.

  Trolls don't automatically get tossed. It's only when they get annoying, promote false teachings, or use foul language. Even then, they are often given a couple of warning before their bridge get blown down.
How much more fair do you want it?

Bronzesnake

Thom,

You will see many full-blown arguments and debates on Christians Unite. My opinion means absolutely nothing unless it involves the forum rules. What you don't see are the deleted posts that violate the forum rules in many ways. You also don't see the warnings that are issued to the users in private when they violate the forum rules. You might or might not see posts that have been modified by a moderator or ADMIN that violates the forum rules.

I don't apologize at all for enforcing the forum rules. In this thread, there were multiple instances of cursing. That has nothing to do with an opinion different than mine - simply cursing that is NOT permitted on Christians Unite. That person has been banned, and it has absolutely nothing to do with his or her opinion. It is very simply that person's defiance of forum rules and ignoring repeated warnings.

You can look all over Christians Unite and see ample evidence that all users are welcome to argue and debate as much as they wish - BUT THEY MUST OBEY THE FORUM RULES! ADMIN does not require his moderators to babysit someone who violates forum rules over and over again while ignoring warnings.

I repeat that my opinion means absolutely nothing, but I will enforce the forum rules. Please feel free to argue and debate all you want with total disregard for the opinions of anyone on this forum. BUT, read and obey the forum rules which are NOT subject to debate or opinion. This is a Christian Family Forum that obviously includes children. The forum rules are pretty plain, simple, and blunt, so we don't worry about explaining violations to the same person over and over again without end. Some violations result in immediate banning, and others result in warnings that we expect to be heeded. Trying to explain why cursing is NOT permitted on a Christian Forum more than twice is beyond reasonable, and the person is banned.

In short, we don't beg a person over and over again to obey the forum rules. If you want to argue and debate, have at it within the forum rules.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Galatians 2:16  Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Does he really do that????!!!!!!Oh my gosh I never knew that!!!! :'( :'(