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1 Kings 18
Elijah's Message to Ahab
The Contest on Mount Carmel
1 And it came to pass after many days that the word of the LORD came to Elijah, in the third year, saying, "Go, present yourself to Ahab, and I will send rain on the earth."
2So Elijah went to present himself to Ahab; and there was a severe famine in Samaria. 3And Ahab had called Obadiah, who was in charge of his house. (Now Obadiah feared the LORD greatly. 4For so it was, while Jezebel massacred the prophets of the LORD, that Obadiah had taken one hundred prophets and hidden them, fifty to a cave, and had fed them with bread and water.) 5And Ahab had said to Obadiah, "Go into the land to all the springs of water and to all the brooks; perhaps we may find grass to keep the horses and mules alive, so that we will not have to kill any livestock." 6So they divided the land between them to explore it; Ahab went one way by himself, and Obadiah went another way by himself.
7Now as Obadiah was on his way, suddenly Elijah met him; and he recognized him, and fell on his face, and said, "Is that you, my lord Elijah?"
8And he answered him, "It is I. Go, tell your master, "Elijah is here."'
9So he said, "How have I sinned, that you are delivering your servant into the hand of Ahab, to kill me? 10As the LORD your God lives, there is no nation or kingdom where my master has not sent someone to hunt for you; and when they said, "He is not here,' he took an oath from the kingdom or nation that they could not find you. 11And now you say, "Go, tell your master, "Elijah is here"'! 12And it shall come to pass, as soon as I am gone from you, that the Spirit of the LORD will carry you to a place I do not know; so when I go and tell Ahab, and he cannot find you, he will kill me. But I your servant have feared the LORD from my youth. 13Was it not reported to my lord what I did when Jezebel killed the prophets of the LORD, how I hid one hundred men of the LORD's prophets, fifty to a cave, and fed them with bread and water? 14And now you say, "Go, tell your master, "Elijah is here."' He will kill me!"
15Then Elijah said, "As the LORD of hosts lives, before whom I stand, I will surely present myself to him today."
16So Obadiah went to meet Ahab, and told him; and Ahab went to meet Elijah.
17Then it happened, when Ahab saw Elijah, that Ahab said to him, "Is that you, O troubler of Israel?"
18And he answered, "I have not troubled Israel, but you and your father's house have, in that you have forsaken the commandments of the LORD and have followed the Baals. 19Now therefore, send and gather all Israel to me on Mount Carmel, the four hundred and fifty prophets of Baal, and the four hundred prophets of Asherah,[1] who eat at Jezebel's table."
20 So Ahab sent for all the children of Israel, and gathered the prophets together on Mount Carmel. 21And Elijah came to all the people, and said, "How long will you falter between two opinions? If the LORD is God, follow Him; but if Baal, follow him." But the people answered him not a word. 22Then Elijah said to the people, "I alone am left a prophet of the LORD; but Baal's prophets are four hundred and fifty men. 23Therefore let them give us two bulls; and let them choose one bull for themselves, cut it in pieces, and lay it on the wood, but put no fire under it; and I will prepare the other bull, and lay it on the wood, but put no fire under it. 24Then you call on the name of your gods, and I will call on the name of the LORD; and the God who answers by fire, He is God."
So all the people answered and said, "It is well spoken."
25Now Elijah said to the prophets of Baal, "Choose one bull for yourselves and prepare it first, for you are many; and call on the name of your god, but put no fire under it."
26So they took the bull which was given them, and they prepared it, and called on the name of Baal from morning even till noon, saying, "O Baal, hear us!" But there was no voice; no one answered. Then they leaped about the altar which they had made.
27And so it was, at noon, that Elijah mocked them and said, "Cry aloud, for he is a god; either he is meditating, or he is busy, or he is on a journey, or perhaps he is sleeping and must be awakened." 28So they cried aloud, and cut themselves, as was their custom, with knives and lances, until the blood gushed out on them. 29And when midday was past, they prophesied until the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice. But there was no voice; no one answered, no one paid attention.
30Then Elijah said to all the people, "Come near to me." So all the people came near to him. And he repaired the altar of the LORD that was broken down. 31And Elijah took twelve stones, according to the number of the tribes of the sons of Jacob, to whom the word of the LORD had come, saying, "Israel shall be your name."[2] 32Then with the stones he built an altar in the name of the LORD; and he made a trench around the altar large enough to hold two seahs of seed. 33And he put the wood in order, cut the bull in pieces, and laid it on the wood, and said, "Fill four waterpots with water, and pour it on the burnt sacrifice and on the wood." 34Then he said, "Do it a second time," and they did it a second time; and he said, "Do it a third time," and they did it a third time. 35So the water ran all around the altar; and he also filled the trench with water.
36And it came to pass, at the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice, that Elijah the prophet came near and said, "LORD God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, let it be known this day that You are God in Israel and I am Your servant, and that I have done all these things at Your word. 37Hear me, O LORD, hear me, that this people may know that You are the LORD God, and that You have turned their hearts back to You again."
38Then the fire of the LORD fell and consumed the burnt sacrifice, and the wood and the stones and the dust, and it licked up the water that was in the trench. 39Now when all the people saw it, they fell on their faces; and they said, "The LORD, He is God! The LORD, He is God!"
40And Elijah said to them, "Seize the prophets of Baal! Do not let one of them escape!" So they seized them; and Elijah brought them down to the Brook Kishon and executed them there.
41 Then Elijah said to Ahab, "Go up, eat and drink; for there is the sound of abundance of rain." 42So Ahab went up to eat and drink. And Elijah went up to the top of Carmel; then he bowed down on the ground, and put his face between his knees, 43and said to his servant, "Go up now, look toward the sea."
So he went up and looked, and said, "There is nothing." And seven times he said, "Go again."
44Then it came to pass the seventh time, that he said, "There is a cloud, as small as a man's hand, rising out of the sea!" So he said, "Go up, say to Ahab, "Prepare your chariot, and go down before the rain stops you."'
45Now it happened in the meantime that the sky became black with clouds and wind, and there was a heavy rain. So Ahab rode away and went to Jezreel. 46Then the hand of the LORD came upon Elijah; and he girded up his loins and ran ahead of Ahab to the entrance of Jezreel.



There are those in America and the world that discount this event and claim that the Old Testament no longer means anything. During Ahab and Jezebel’s rein many of the priest that they had in their court where practicing homosexuals and had the blood of many children on their hands. God used Elijah to deal with Ahab and Jezebel. He also dealt with the priest that worshipped Baal. Jesus stated that He came to fulfill the law and not to abolish it. This meant that he came to provide a way for us to escape from our sins. It did not mean that we where to continue living in our sins and all would be ok in the end and no matter what we did we would be allowed to enter into heaven. To do this is to call God a liar. This kind of reasoning is to say that God owes Sodom and Gomorrah and the priest of Ahab and Jezebel an apology. The pro-abortionist and the homosexual community are holding on to this belief. Those in America that hold this same belief and see nothing wrong with any politician supporting these groups are calling God a liar as well. If we as a nation continue down this path of moral destruction then we to will face the same consequences that these priest faced. God has offered America a choice, to choose whom it is that we as a nation will serve. Does anyone of you think that God is going to apologize for dealing with the evil that was and is going on in this world? Satan was kicked out of heaven and no matter what version of the Bible you read it says the same thing. Satan will be thrown into the lake of fire forever. It also says that his followers will face the same fate. Jesus came to save us from this but we have the freedom to choose or reject what He has done for us on the cross. We as a nation now have a choice to make, to serve God or to serve Satan. There are only two choices. There is no middle ground on this.

So true, Darwinatridge...

I am curious, why do you think America has a choice to make now?  Since when has God used a national agenda to bring people into the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ?

This county threw God out years ago, if He was ever part of America in the first place.  There is no such thing as God Bless America.

This country is full of pornography, abortion, homosexuality, physical and sexual abuse, murder, crime and all manner of evil, satanism, and every whim of doctrine and cult ever known to man.

Our current president is a 33rd degree mason [satanic] and the other candidate is blatant evil with no apologies.

I think this country makes the prophets of Baal look like a walk in the park.

Sorry for my tirade - I am tired of it all.

Shalom, Nana

MalkyEL,

"Our current president is a 33rd degree mason [satanic]..."

Where do you get this from? President Bush's is a member of the United Methodist Church and is an avid listener of Billy Graham. Have I been in the dark about the methodists and they have masonic levels now?

 

Billy Graham is also a 33rd degree mason.  This level of masonry is steeped in the occult and in demonic practices.

Billy Graham is also pushing ecumenism which is the NWO [New World order] - aka all religions lead to heaven.  He believes that Jesus is one way, not the only Way.  He supports Buddahists, Muslims, etc - whichever works for you. He has believed this for years.

So much for spiritual leadership.


http://www.geocities.com/endtimedeception/billy.htm

http://www.freemasonrywatch.org/bnaibrith.html

http://www.myfortress.org/masoniclodge.html#anchor_16

http://www.angelfire.com/nt/dragon9/GOLDENDAWN.html

Some interesting stuff on the Christian Leaders of our time:

http://www.texemarrs.com/042001/berserk4.htm

http://www.seekgod.ca/topiconeworld.htm

http://www.seekgod.ca/topicpaths.htm


Time for reality coffee.  The path is narrow and few find it.

Shalom, Nana

conspiracist  

yes ..............

isn't that satan's game plan from day 1?  he is not a fool.  he knows exactly what he is doing.  he is a liar and the father of lies.

Shalom, Nana

I wasn't referring to Bush or Graham. ::)

You are right. America began turning its back on God years ago. But I am thankful that God is still working to try and turn this nation around. How many times did He deal with Israel in an attempt to turn them from their sins? This nation, like Israel claims to have the same God. And like Israel, many times it has turned away. We do need to continue to pray that America turns back to the one true God and Heed the call to serve Him only. We do have a choice. The leaders of this nation are a reflection of America's heart. They are the ones we elect. As we have seen with all this garbage that the news media is doing to divide the country, we are divided. We have lost our moral concept of right and wrong, or more to the point. We have decided to ignore the Holy Spirit who convicts us on our beliefs. The church that claims to belong to Christ needs to stand and be counted. We all know what sin is. It is anything that separates us from God. Baal worshipping has to do with sexual and sensual pleasures, in other words, a lust for worldly things and values. We have allowed our government to replace the Ten Commandments of God with tens of thousands of commandment from the world. We have allowed the abortionist and the homosexuals to dictate the direction that this nation is taking. We have decided to sit down and do nothing as long as we are not effected by the actions of others. That to is a lie. What people do does effect those around them. And if the Christian community does nothing but sit on its hand, that effects a whole lot more than we care to realize.

Pastor Roger,

ahhhhh ...........  you are not convinced .........

maybe I should brew up some more reality coffee?


Shalom, Nana

darwinatridge,

Perhaps you could find me Scripture that says God now uses a nation to do His work.  

The body of Messiah was given a job to do.  It has nothing to do with America.  America is a godless giant.  It is full of corruption and filth.  God is looking for faithful men and women who are sold out to Him to be His hands and feet and to go where He sends them.

The Great Commission is not about America.  It is about you and me.

Shalom, Nana

As for the national agenda you are refering to, God placed a whole nation into captivity to try to turn them around. He has destroyed nations because they refused to turn around. Don't you think that  is in the best interest of the nation to turn back to Him! If that is not a national agenda then I don't know what is.

Please find a reference for me in the NT that talks about national salvation or that God will use a nation to spread the gospel.

And who is you and me and our neighbors and our friends and our families. Jesus died on the cross for all that would answer his call. We are not the 144,000 that some people would claim that are the only ones to make it into heaven. As for scripture, God has used nations throughout history do deal with other nations. He used Babylon to deal with Israel. He used Persia to deal with Babylon. The scripture tell us that God directs all things to the good for those that are in Christ. If he has to use a nation to do so is it our place to tell him that He cannot? He will use the good and bad events to attempt to bring us about. As I have said in the past, we are not the judges of men, just their actions. And if we are so blind to not be able to tell what sin is then we are in trouble. But every man has a chance up until he takes his dying breath. The question is. Does any of us know when that is? The thief on the cross was greatful that his dying breath did not come before he had a chance to call out and claim Jesus as his Lord.

Be sure to drink a whole pot yourself. ;D

You are right that God used nations to punish nations before Christ, because Isra'el was under the umbrella of national salvation.

Salvation is no longer a national issue. We are each responsible for our relationship with God.

The body of Messiah is the only "community" that God has authorized to do His work.  We will be judged for our lack and held accountable for our failings.

America is not the body of Messiah.  It is a nation that has always been presumed to originate as a God fearing country. This is a major deception and why so many name themselves as Christians, when in fact they have not a clue as to the meaning of the word.

Religious freedom in this country was provided for us by God to do His purpose.  A means to the end.  Which proves that God will use just about anything to get His work done, in spite of us, not because of us - may His Name be praised forever.

Shalom, Nana

Pastor Roger wrote:
Be sure to drink a whole pot yourself.  ;D

Nana:
Actually I have offered to share the pot many times.  Not too many takers though.  I don't mind.  The truth is hard to grasp for some  8)

The nice thing about reality coffee is that it never goes bad on ya - always nice and fresh, ready to pour for anyone who wants a cup  ;)

Shalom, Nana

How right you are. He has to work for His purpose in spite of us. We keep messing things up. But it is because of us that Jesus had to die. By the way, too much coffee makes me sick. Just like to much of anything from this world. As for national salvation, I'm pretty sure that if it is possible God will bring it about. I'm a little slow at times but try reading 1Timothy  2:1-6 I urge, then, first of all, that request, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone- for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in godliness and holiness. This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men-the testimony given in its proper time.

darwinatridge,
I like 1 Tim 2:1-6.  You are right, we are to pray for those in leadership - but I don't get the connection between that and a national/corporate move towards God.

Jesus said the path is narrow and few find it.  He also said that many will fall away.  I do not believe that prayer will change what He has prophecied.  Jesus makes it very clear that life will get extremely ugly and I believe we are in the beginning stages of it.

Reality coffee never goes bad on ya.  The more you have, the more you want.

PS: reality coffee is TRUTH.

PS:  what does your nickname mean? dying of curiosity  ;D

Shalom, Nana

I am a realist. Do I believe that all men will repent and turn to God? No I don't but that is what Christ died for. So that all men may make that personnel choice. That is what freedom of choice is really all about. True freedom comes with responsibility. If we attempt to throw away that responsibility then we throw away our freedom. My first name is Darwin and I live in Ridgecrest, CA. I've had many commits about my first name but it is the name God gave me through my parents.

yes, Darwin, we are free to make the choice.

Do you agree that it is the Holy Spirit that opens the heart to belief in Jesus as Savior?

Responsibility is something that many walk away from - which is why we are in the condition that we are.

There is nothing wrong with your name - it means "dear friend"  :D

Shalom, Nana

Yes, I do agree. The Holy Spirit is the promised seal that God gives to all His children. He is our moral compass and much more. It is sad to know that so many people reject that. But that is one of the reasons that He is there for us. To help us pray for those that are lost. Many are called and few will answer that call but we still need to be praying for them.

Brothers and Sisters,

Very generally, I would like to add 2 cents worth here, certainly not for the purpose of contention.

Psalms 33:12  Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD; and the people whom he hath chosen for his own inheritance.

In my opinion, God has richly blessed America in the past, but I don't understand why God continues to bless us. As a nation, I think that we did try to live UNDER GOD for over 200 years. I'm not suggesting anything worthy of God's Blessing, nor would I suggest that any individual Christian is worthy of God's Blessings. However, most of our history has been one where the vast majority of the nation and its leaders had GOD as their LORD. There was a time when America was most definitely known as a Christian nation. Again, I'm not suggesting being worthy or pure. We, as individual Christians, are not worthy or pure.

TODAY, it doesn't surprise me at all that much of the world views America as evil. We still have a large percentage of Christians, but I would question how many actually stand up for right and wrong these days. I would ask them if their silence was an encouragement for evil. I would also ask some who claim to be Christians why they put their stamp of approval on evil and participate.

I doubt there are very many Christians who still consider America to be a Christian nation. I don't, but I fondly remember times of the past when our nation was much closer to God. TODAY, our nation has turned its back on God, and many Christians are still silent. I don't pretend to place percentages or statistics as evidence of a Godly nation. Only God can do that. Regardless, I would say that America is no longer worthy of God's Blessings. An outsider looking in would say that America is worthy of God's wrath. An insider Christian with reality glasses on would come to the same conclusion.

NOW, maybe the purpose for this thread: Can Christians pray and work in the attempt to return to God? YES!!!, we can and we should. It's a fight to try, and we are supposed to try. Will we succeed? I will simply say that the Gospel of the Grace of God is never wasted. The Holy Spirit (RESTRAINER) is still with us, but God hasn't imprisoned satan and evil yet. God will do just that at His appointed time, and that time is not now. I would say this is not an excuse for Christians to sit down, be silent, or let the devil roam free without our opposition. We are to do the opposite and fight a good fight until Christ calls us Home. YES!!!!, we are to fight, but we won't win. Our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ, WILL WIN!!! at His appointed time.

Just 2 cents worth.

Love In Christ,
Tom

 ;D


(http://www.sirinet.net/~blkidps/blgif1.gif)

oopss ...........  ::)  hit the wrong button  ::)

BEP wrote:
Just 2 cents worth.

Nana:
Thanx Tom, it was worth a lot more than that - good perspective  8)

darwinatridge wrote:
Many are called and few will answer that call but we still need to be praying for them.

Nana:
Amen  :)

Sounds like we are all in agreement that we need to be doing a whole lot of praying. Thanks Tom! And to all of you for your imput on this debate.

 Remeber in Genesis when God told Abraham that many nations will be blessed by him.

Despite the circumstances in america we are still a Blessed country. God says he who blessed Israel will be blessed and he who curses Israel will be cursed. I will point out that America is the back bone in supporting Israel and in that God has blessed America. Yes mankind will always remain evil but where there is evil there is always Rightous people who will fight against evil. There will always be pornography and abortion and murders and etc but that only shows the bankruptcy of man living without God. But that does not show that america is not blessed because sin exist without evil there cannot be righteousness and therefore no blessings.

America was founded on Biblical Morality and point of Reference and nothing else and that is another partial reason why America has always been a wealthy and productive nation of freedom.

Always i want to point out that Salvation is still very universal remeber the OT prophecies tell us that one day all of the jewish people who have not accepted Yeshua as Messiah will be saved. Also all of Egpyt will be saved.

Zechariah 14:16-19

Michael

Sulfurdolphin wrote:
 
God says he who blessed Israel will be blessed and he who curses Israel will be cursed. I will point out that America is the back bone in supporting Israel and in that God has blessed America.

Nana:
The premise of God blessing those who bless Isra'el has no validity in the NT Covenant.  The nation/country of Isra'el is not God's chosen people as a nation.  Each person must come to Messiah - there is no national salvation. There are only two kinds of people.  In the Vine, or not of the Vine, period.

All of Isra'el being saved does not refer to every single Jew that has ever lived.  As Paul said, not all of Isra'el is Isra'el, but only those grafted into the Vine - there is no more Jew and Gentile, male or female, slave or free in Jesus.  Jesus is the Root, not Isra'el.

And please, do not take my words as anti-Semitic.  It is true that God will bring into the Vine a vast number of Jews at the end of this age.  This will be God's doing, not man's.  Only the Holy Spirit convicts.

Although it appears as if America was founded on Biblical Morality - and that God has blessed this nation - it is NOT due to the fact that we have done anything righteous or deserved His blessing.  Man can do *nothing* to earn blessings from God - that are due entirely and only on His grace.

It was His purpose to use this country, but that does not make us better than anyone else - it only makes us blessed.  Instead of gratitude we have thrown what He has given back in His face, and blasphemed His Holy Name.  God will not contend with man forever.  America's days are numbered.

All of Eygpt saved??? I don't think we are reading the same Bible.

Zeh 14:16 ¶ And it shall be, everyone who is left of all the nations which came up against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, whoever will not come up from all the families of the earth to Jerusalem to worship the King, Jehovah of hosts, even on them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt does not go up, nor come in, they shall have no rain, but the plague with which the LORD shall strike the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.
19 This shall be Egypt's offense, and the offense of all the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.


Shalom, Nana
   

 God's blessings of those who bless Israel are very concrete in the NT. When God fulfilled the Torah He fullfilled it to the very Tee and Tittle.

The nation/country of Israel are God's chosen people as a nation. All the Jews living in the world today and in Israel are God's Royal Priest Hood and Royal nation. I realize you dont mean to make this sound anti semetic Nana but truth in reality is to say the Jews are not God's chosen people is in fact anti semetic statement. The Old Covenant reveals they are God's chosen people. Even Romans chapter 11 talks about God's chosen People. and Romans chapter 9. And

Romans chapter 11:25-36

and Psalm 11:6-7 this is a future prophecy that has yet come. Still God blesses those who bless the Jews and the Nation of Israel and our prayers to them and to the land do not come out void.

It is true for now that each person has to come to the Messiah for salvation and it's the work of the Holy Spirit that draws them unto the Messiah. Remeber at the end times when the Messiah comes and shows the nation of Israel His hand then all of Israel Nationally will become saved. But for now it is indivually.

When the Messiah does come God will say AMMI HU ('it is My people') and he shall say Jehovah Elohio ('Jehovah is my God.')

In Isaiah 44:7  God has called them "AM OLAM," the "everlasting people"

When the Messiah comes they will all say "Blessed is HE that cometh in the Name of the Lord: Hosanna in the highest!.

Michael

Nana, here is the passage sulfurdolphin was talking about (Egypt being saved)-
Isaiah 19:23-
23 In that day there will be a highway from Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrians will come into Egypt and the Egyptians into Assyria, and the Egyptians will worship with the Assyrians. 24 In that day Israel will be the third {party} with Egypt and Assyria, a blessing in the midst of the earth, 25 whom the LORD of hosts has blessed, saying, "Blessed is Egypt My people, and Assyria the work of My hands, and Israel My inheritance."

The new covenant (not NT covenant), is made with Israel (as in Heb. 10:16 which is a quote of Jer. 31:31).

-oneBook

It is obvious from the context of Isaiah 19 and 20 that to say that all of Egypt will be saved is rather shakey.  It looks more like they will be destroyed.

The New Covenant is for all believers in Jesus Christ as Savior.  [there is neither Jew or Greek, male or female, slave or free] Rom 9,10,11.

Shalom, Nana

 You need to read further into Isaiah chapter 19 in verse 18-25 reveals the Blessings and Salvation of Egypt Assyria and Israel . God's prophecies are never shakey only our understandings if we are not familar.


And it iwll be for a sign and for a witness to the Lord of hosts in the land of Egypt for they will cry to the Lord because of the oppresors and He will send them a Saviour and a Mighty One and HE will deliver them. Then the Lord will be known to  Egypt and the Egyptians will know the Lord in that day and will make a scarifice and offering yes they will make a vow to the Lord and perform it. And the Lord will strike Egypt HE will strike and heal it they will return to the Lord and HE will be entreated by them and heal them. In that day there will be a highway from EGypt to Assyria and the Assyrian will come into Egypt  and the Egyptian into Assyria and the Egyptians will serve with the Asyrians.
    In that day Israel will be one of three with Egypt and Assyria a blessing in the midst of the land whom the Lord of hosts shall bless saying "Blessed is Egypt My people and Assyria the work of My hands and Israel My inheritance."

This correlation fits with Zechariah 14:16-19
 And it shall be, everyone who is left of all the nations which came up against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, whoever will not come up from all the families of the earth to Jerusalem to worship the King, Jehovah of hosts, even on them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt does not go up, nor come in, they shall have no rain, but the plague with which the LORD shall strike the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.
19 This shall be Egypt's offense, and the offense of all the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

 Michael

MalkyEl,

Romans 9, 10, and 11 demonstrate that Gentiles have been graphted into Israel.  The verse you quoted is
Gal. 3:27-29
27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.  29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

So, when we are part of Messiah (the King of Israel), we become part of Israel.  This is emphasized by Paul's statement that we become Abraham's descendants, heirs according to the promise.  This language was normally reserved for Israelites, but Paul was showing that family line is not what makes you part of Israel (aka, the Church), but whether or not the King of Israel is your king.  Being clothed in Messiah means doing the deeds He spoke of (deeds in Jewish culture are a symbol of one's works) by the Spirit.
Note that while there is no male of female in Messiah, most churches still have a men's bathroom and a woman's bathroom. It doesn't mean there is no difference at all, it means there is no difference in regards to membership in God's people.  Paul even gives different advice to women than to men in Titus (and 1 Cor 11) as well as other places.

Show me a verse where people are included in the covenant that are not called any of these terms by Paul-
children of Abraham
fellow citizens
fellow heirs
Israel
saints (lit. the holy ones)
the circumcision (or circumcised)
God's household
adopted sons

These are all terms that refer to Israel.
Paul never makes a distinction between "Church" and Israel. The word translated "Church" is a Greek word that was used to refer to Israel - ekklesia. It was used to refer to different groups (or "Churches") that met in the Temple, so of course, those that followed the Messiah were their own church as well. It could best be viewed as "assembly".  The word church was a latin word later used to translate the Greek ekklesia.

-oneBook

Brother,

This is completely false, and everything Paul wrote is the complete opposite of what you just said.

The Church Paul spoke of is the CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST, not a church built with human hands and obviously not Israel. 100% of the CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST are saved. Israel is close to the opposite, as Israel rejected Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour.

This may help you with your confusion. Paul prayed for the salvation of Israel. Israel was not , is not, and never will be the CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST. There are a few of Israel who have accepted Jesus Christ, and individually they are members of the CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST.

Israel and the CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST are almost exact opposites. God will still be dealing with Israel long after HIM taking the CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST home to glory. If one doesn't understand this most basic fact, reading Bible prophecy would be like putting a puzzle together without any of the pieces.

Love In Christ,
Tom

 The jewish people who have not accepted Christ by the time of the Messiah's return. When Christ splits the mount of olives the Messiah will reveal His hand to the jewish people and in that they will be universally saved by the Messiah's Salvation. Israel is from God and He is called Sion, Any Jew and believer in Christ is the Body of Christ i agree with your premise on that issue.And I also agree to a certain level that there are non jewish believers in the Messiah and it is the gentile believers who are to make the Jewish people Jealous for the God of Sion. We have to keep in mind one day all of Israel and the Church will be one body for now i would say it is a Partial body in Christ to those who are Jewish believers that correlate to the gentile belivers in christ. Not all of Israel are lost and it's true that most of the jewish people rejected God there Messiah that God has not forgotten them in fact Israel and God will one day be Married together again. The body of christ will be here on earth when the Messiah returns and that is when God will automatically Heal Israel and restore them. God will not judge them since they have already been judged by not having God as their King but only a human king they wanted which God did not want them to have :)

Michael

Brothers and Sisters,

This type of gross confusion on something so basic makes me very sad. It certainly explains why so many other areas of the Holy Bible are also confusing.

I'll have to pray about this and decide if I wish to contend on this issue. Regardless, I will be praying for those mired in confusion.

Israel has a hard road ahead and will be dealt with by Almighty God. The Church which is THE BODY OF CHRIST will be in Glory with Jesus, and God will still be dealing with Israel. God's promises to the CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST and those to Israel are two different sets of promises, but both sets of promises will most definitely be fulfilled by God at His appointed time.

Love In Christ,
Tom

oneBook wrote:
Romans 9, 10, and 11 demonstrate that Gentiles have been graphted into Israel.

Nana:
We are grated into the Vine.  The Vine is not Isra'el.  The Vine is Jesus.  He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life and no man comes unto the Father but through Him.

Jesus is also the Root of the Vine:
Rev 22:I, Jesus, sent My angel to testify these things to you over the assemblies. I am the Root and Offspring of David, the bright and morning Star.

The confusion I think comes because Paul talks of 2 Israels-
Believing Israel (aka the Church, of which I am a part), and unbelieving Israel (physical unbelieving Israel).  The Messiah is referred to as Israel
Isaiah 49:1-6
1 Listen to Me, O islands, And pay attention, you peoples from afar. The LORD called Me from the womb; From the body of My mother He named Me. 2 He has made My mouth like a sharp sword, In the shadow of His hand He has concealed Me; And He has also made Me a select arrow, He has hidden Me in His quiver. 3 He said to Me, " You are My Servant, Israel, In Whom I will show My glory." 4 But I said, "I have toiled in vain, I have spent My strength for nothing and vanity; Yet surely the justice {due} to Me is with the LORD, And My reward with My God." 5 And now says the LORD, who formed Me from the womb to be His Servant, To bring Jacob back to Him, so that Israel might be gathered to Him (For I am honored in the sight of the LORD, And My God is My strength), 6 He says, "It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant To raise up the tribes of Jacob and to restore the preserved ones of Israel; I will also make You a light of the nations So that My salvation may reach to the end of the earth."

Note in verse 3 particularly, that Messiah is referred to as "Israel".  He is the vine and/or tree, and in Romans, that is what we are grafted into.

Additionally, Paul uses the remnant concept to show this, that in every age, physical Israel consisted of those who were God's people and those who weren't.  The ones who were were called the remnant.  Remember that those who left Egypt, many were idolaters (Ps. ) and/or rebellious (Ps. ) and almost everyone died in the desert.  Paul invokes the remnant terminology in
Rom. 11:1-7
1 I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? 3 "Lord, THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS, THEY HAVE TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY ARE SEEKING MY LIFE." 4 But what is the divine response to him? "I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL." 5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God's gracious choice. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. 7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;

So if you are part of His (Jesus) body, you are part of the remnant of Israel that was chosen by grace.

Did you know that the 2 that survived of the Exodus generation (Joshua and Caleb), were a Hebrew (Jew) and a Gentile? Josh. 14:14 tells us that Caleb was a Kennizite.
Did you know that Jacob adopted two Gentiles into his own family when he blessed Ephraim and Manasseh? (Joseph's wife was a Gentile).  Reading that passage, it states that Ephraim would become a multitude of Gentiles!!  The rabbi's had problems with this passage as in many passages where Gentiles are included without explanation (so the rabbi's labored to explain why God didn't seem to make a distinction between Gentiles and Jews).


Jesus also referred to this-
John 10:16 -
"I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd."

(and NO, he is not talking about the Mormons ;) )
This is the same thing Paul is talking about in Romans 10-
Rom. 11:16-26
16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too. 17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree? 25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."

Note in verse 25 he says that the the Gentiles that come in are part of 'all Israel' - "and so all Israel will be saved".

If they are separate, why does Jesus say they will be one flock?  BEP, this is not a salvation issue (it doesn't make you saved or unsaved), but it is about the nature of our salvation.  I know what I am saying is different than what you are taught, but that doesn't make me wrong and you right, or vice versa.  I think this is what the forum is for, as iron sharpens iron, and we compare our understanding with each other, and with the Scripture text.  I would like to see clear scripture references that state that there are two bodies, and one is Israel, and one is the Church.  Remember, the word church was a term used to refer to Israel (as in Stephen's speech before he was stoned in Acts 7).  In my reading, everywhere that Paul talks about the body, the next thing me uses is an Israelism (in the list in my post to MalkyEL).

I have a book coming from BigD on the subject, so I hope to better understand the position that he is taking, although I don't know if it is the same one you endorse.

Peace and blessings
-oneBook