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http://www.iraqbodycount.net/

 What the liberal news media wont tell us is that islamic terriost are the ones killing there own civilian people not the US Military.

AMEN!!!! You get"TWO"Thumbs UP :)



(http://www.sirinet.net/~blkidps/blgif1.gif)

WWII Death Count Per Country:
Country:       Civilian Total:
USSR               17     million
Poland               5.86 million
Germany            2.44 million
Yugoslavia         1.35 million
Romania             465,000
Hungary             600,000
France               350,000
Italy                  153,000
Great Britain         92,700
United States         6,000
Czechoslovakia    315,000
Holland              236,000
Greece              140,000
Belgium               23,000
 

Those who would be Hitler will be unless they are stopped. There is no surprise that we are fighting terrorists in Iraq. There is also no surprise that terrorists are killing civilians in Iraq. That's what terrorists do. We can fight them in Iraq and around the world, OR we can fight them here. If we must fight the terrorists on our own soil, they will be killing our civilians AGAIN.

Internationally, they have already declared war on us, and they have made it painfully obvious they intend to kill us. In fact, they have killed us. NOW, it's only a matter of common sense to take the battle to them, wherever they are in the world. OR, some would suggest we wait for them to come kill us again. Waiting for them to come get us AGAIN doesn't appear to be very bright.

Tom

Florida_Catholic -

Why do you only have compassion toward Iraqi civilians who are killed as a result of collateral damage by US and allied troops, but you have no compassion for the (at least) 300,000 Iraqi civilians murdered by their evil dictator, Saddam Hussein? Isn't the world better off, especially Iraq, now that he is gone?

Just because you mentioned Hitler can i mention that Stalin killed more people than hitler did in their holocausts (sp?)

You're right my friend. He murdered an estimated 20 million. The only reason most people don't know, or acknowledge this - is because he didn't try to take over the world like Hitler did.

Bronzesnake

i wonder what would have happened if the Atom Bomb didn't exist?

And another thing....

300,000 Iraqi civilians slaughtered at the hand of Saddam --
this number does not include the countless women who were snatched off the street and brutally raped, the men whose ears were cut off, or those that had their hands cut off and God only knows of the other atrocities...

Sincereheart,

The numbers you provide seem a little low to me.  Are you counting civilians only ?  Where did you find them ?

Bronzesnake,

I would think both Hitler and Stalin were looking for global domination.  We seem to agree about Hitler, what is it that makes you think Stalin was diffrerent ?

Peace

Alnilam

 When did Stalin drive a massive war machine through Europe & Africa or bomb the tar out of Britain?

Take care my friend...

Bronzesnake

 Quoting from WWII for Dummies -"Over 60 million people died in WWII and of those 60 million, more were civilian than soldiers." Pages 363 and 364 give a run down with some numbers but does not offer a breakdown of the total civilian vs. soldier.

The Soviet Union lost the most with 25 million deaths, but only about a third were combat related.

China's death toll is incomplete but estimates are between 15 and 22 million,

Poland had 6 million deaths including 3 million Jews, roughly 20% of its prewar population,

 Germany lost 4 million soldiers and 2 million civilians, many of them women,

Japan had 1.2 million battle deaths and another 1.4 million soldiers listed as missing, almost 1 million civilians were killed in the bombing raids between 1944 and 1945,

 over 1.7 million Yugoslavs and 500,000 Greeks died in the war,

France lost 200,000 soldiers and 400,000 civilians,

Italy lost 330,000 people,

Hungary lost 147,000 men in combat,

 Bulgaria lost 19,000 in combat, Romania lost 73,000 in combat,

Great Britain lost 264,000 soldiers and 60,000 civilians in bombing raids,

the United States lost 292,000 soldiers,

the Dutch lost 10,000 soldiers and 190,000 civilians,

 Australia lost 23,000 men in combat,

Canada 37,000 soldiers,

India lost 24,000 men in battle,

New Zeland 10,000 and South Africa 6,000.

These totals do not include the 6 million Jews who perished in the Final Solution of Nazi Germany or the 17 million dead as a result of Japan's policies in Asia from 1931 to 1945.

Bronzesnake

Yes. Civilian death count. Sorry for not being more clear! The source is:
http://www.angelfire.com/ct/ww2europe/stats.html (http://www.angelfire.com/ct/ww2europe/stats.html)

Sincereheart and Bronzesnake,

Thank you both for the clarification of casualty figures.

Peace

Alnilam

Hi Bronzesnake,

The USSR and Great Britain were "allies" during WWII.  After the war the soviets built and maintained a large bomber and missle force.  Later this included basing weapons in Cuba.

The soviets didn't participate in the North African campaign but after the war supplied war materials to many client states including Egypt.

The soviets did invade Europe during WWII.  Germany and the USSR invaded Poland to start the war.  The USSR also invaded Finland.  Later huge soviet armies invaded eastern Europe and maintained occupation for decades.  The USSR was also prepared to send occupation troops to Japan but MacArthur stopped that.

Stalin led the USSR at the begining of the cold war.  Those that followed him continued soviet expansion, exerting influence in Asia, Africa, the Middle East, South and Central America.   No doubt in my mind that he was no better than Hitler.  I hope we can agree about this.

You take care too my friend.  I trust you are feeling well, IIRC you were very sick for a while.

Peace

Alnilam  

Most of the Jewish dead are indeed included, see the Polish figure.

 Get serious my friend.
 The Polish figures counted a large population of their Jewish people - 3 million. Poland had 6 million deaths including 3 million Jews, roughly 20% of its prewar population.
 However, as I pointed out - this total did not include the the 6 million Jews who perished in the Final Solution of Nazi Germany or the 17 million dead as a result of Japan's policies in Asia from 1931 to 1945.

 Are you contending the numbers are wrong in regards to the total death count as a direct result of the Nazi prison camps?
 Do you make no distinction from dying during battle and being murdered while in prison by being poisoned and shoveled into ovens? In many instances, children were tossed into the ovens alive.

 I have zero tolerance for anyone who belittles the horror and evil which was bestowed upon our Jewish brothers and sisters by black hearted Zazi scum. The numbers are legitimate.Only white supremists, anti-Semites and fools dispute or minimalize them.

Bronzesnake

My friend, I moderate a WW2 warcrimes site, and I assure you that the 3 million Polish Jews are part of the six million figure. By mocking me you will only make a fool of yourself. Other countries lost less, e.g. Austria 20,000, Holland 100,000 or so, Hungary 200,000 to 400,000 thousand depending on who's figures you trust.

I'm still suprised that Britan lost more people due to Bombing raids than the US did soldiers for the war......

are you sure its right?

i mean wow, weren't in there for long were they....

 
 They were in there for 6 years, we were in for 4 years.

still doesn't make sense though

for four years you'd expect more soldiers to die than 292000

The British and the Russians were probably the least effective allied troops in both wars. The French suffered the brunt of the German offensive during WW1 for a variety of reasons.

One reason that the French collapsed so fast was German propaganda that said "The British will fight until the last drop of French blood has been spilt". That contained more than a grain of truth, and was effective propaganda with the French.

The main way that the UK suffered was financial, and they are still recovering from the two world wars. The Marshal Plan helped the UK much more than Germay, for what it's worth.

Regards
Tim

ok, i always wondered why the british, having such large reserves (i.e. the indian military reserves were in the millions i am told) were so ineffective...

Their military doctrine was outdated. During the last German offensive of WW1, Von Ludendorf picked the British to attack as the French were too tough. There is a book called Stormtroop Tactics that deals with the subject.

Also, the British have a history of playing people off against each other.

Yeah, we never really get taught our own history, sometimes it is interesting!

Merchants/Pirates conquered a quarter of the Globe......weird really

A tremendously HUGE number of Japanese (Soldiers, civilians, women, and children) would have been killed.

WWII estimates, based on casualty rates derived from invasions on Japanese held islands, put US casualties at 1,000,000 plus.


MY OPINION -
1.  We are involved in the the same WAR that has been going on since before the Crusades - Muslim versus anyone else who isn't.

2.  Concerning the casualty figures that started this thread -  Better their civilians than ours.

 Oh...my mistake - you moderate a WWII warcrimes site - so you are the final authority. ::)

Bronzesnake

No, but I will take you up on it. Give me something concrete. How many Jews do you think were killed in WW2? 9 million? Please don't run.

http://www.euronet.nl/users/wilfried/ww2/epilogue.htm

Here's somewhere where you can start, but again I tell you that you will make a fool of yourself by not counting Polish Jews in the 6 million figure.

The number of Jews killed in WW2 from all countries accepted by top, mainline historians runs from Reitlinger's figure of 4.6 million, which I find reasonable, to a middle figure by Hilberg, the most respected of the Jewish WW2 historians of 5.1 to an upper figure of 6.1 held by a few others.

I ask you to either drop the subject, or name one person who will add the 3 million Polish Jews to the 6 million figure. If you can't name one person, and refuse to concede you don't have a source, I'll ignore you in the future.

 Oh, no! please, I beg you, don't ignore me!
Stop! - you're killing me!  ;D

 The graphics used at the top of the web site you cited speaks volumes my friend...

 Perhaps you should invest some time at the following site...

 http://www.nizkor.org/features/qar/qar00.html (ftp://http://www.nizkor.org/features/qar/qar00.html)

Of course, I don't think you'll like it - there's no German crosses there! ;)

 The six million deaths attributed as a direct result of the death camps are legitimate. These numbers were legitimized by survivors and wittiness accounts. If you lost your mom/dad/sister/brother/husband/wife/relative/friend, you would know it. The numbers were tabulated many years ago, and immediately contested by neo-nazi scum, anti-Semites and revisionists alike. This flies in the face of the horrific experiences of those who were tortured and killed, as well as survivors and family and is a direct extension of the mindset which found the final solution a reasonable undertaking in the first place.

 Once we humble ourselves to accept the truth as relayed by those who lived through it, we quickly realize that on top of the six million who died in death camps, there were obviously many other Jews killed outside of the death camps. Many were arrested and shot, (see info on web I provided) or otherwise disposed of by not only nazis, but also a host of other anti-Semites who took the opportunity to ride the "free-for-all" Jew extermination band wagon.

 Bronzesnake

Well! You provide a source! Nizkor.

I will bet you a 100 dollar donation to this site that if we contact the Nizkor Project, an organization that I am very familiar with and who's resources I use, they will tell you about half of the 6 million figure is due to concentration camp conditions (starvation, various methods of executions etc..) and about half due to policies of starvation outside the camps, summery execution by Einsatzgruppen, etc...

Specifically, they will say that you are wrong in that any respected holocaust scholar holds to a figure of 6 million Jews dead in concentration camps. If I'm right, you donate 100 dollars to this site, and if you're right, I donate 100 dollars to this site.

Don't run.

I contacted the head of Nizkor and here is his reply

 I concede. My mistake. However, I do not gamble.(your childish $100 challenge)
The fact remains that 6 million Jews were killed (1.4 million more than you "find reasonable"), with about half as a direct result of death camps - others died in the ghettos, and behind the Eastern front.

 What really sickens me about people like you is the anti - Semitic tone which comes frothing forth out of your mouths and in the way you minimize and belittle the death of so many innocent people simply because they are Jewish.

 The remark you made in your e-mail to Nizkor, and the web-site you cited with the telling graphics are evidence of the kind of person you are - specifically, an anti-Semite...

You wrote...
 

 I would rather admit I'm wrong about what percentage of Jews may or may not have died inside the death camps, than be a person who spends his time and energy minimizing the numbers to satisfy his anti-Semite appetite.

 as for your comment...
 
 I don't run - especially from weak, black hearted cowards.

 1Jo 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

 Have a nice life Franz!

Bronzesnake

Yawn. I was right and now I'm an antiSemite. You grossly exaggerated the number of Jewish deaths, so what do that make you?

Oh, what do you think of Hilberg's 5.1 and Reitlinger's 4.6 million figure? In your world does that make two of the most respected Jewish holocaust historians antiSemites?

I said I was a moderator on a WW2 warcrimes site. Why do you think I spend my time on Jews? For every one Jew murdered there were 6-8 Slavs murdered during that time. Why do you assume I have no interest on other casualties?

There is nothing more profound in the 6 million Jewish dead than in the 24 million Russian dead. There is nothing more significant in the 6 million Jewish dead than in the 8 million Ukrainian dead. There is nothing more sad about the 6 million Jewish dead than the 3 million Polish dead.

So I have a black heart for not accepting your wild exaggerations? Get real. This whole exchange started when I simply, and without negative speech corrected an obvious mistake in your figures. You responded sharply, and now here we are.

is this flaming yet or still borderline, i am following with interest, but the personal attacks have nothing to do with the argument/ or shouldn't.

I really don't mind the black hearted stuff, as long as things are done in accordence with historic, western standards of scholarship. Snake posted a link in haste, and conceded it was a mistake, so whatever. I could care less about an apology.

Do you have any questions about the subject?

no not really, no amount of talking detracts from the horrors of war, particularly this. So i try to live with it.

Well I don't have a problem with war per se, and there are a couple wars we've fought in the past that pass the "just war" litmis test (one against an Arab power), but this current foreign adventure well be seen in the future as every bit as bad as what the Nazi's and Commies did in the middle of the last century.

I understand Bronzesnakes comment here. Whether you intended it as such or not is the question but the usage of "Christian Zionists" in the context that you used it can definitely be construed as a derogatory, hatefilled and prejudicial statement. It is a term used by most radical anti-semite and anti-christian muslims in the same manner.

 

With respect, I was first attacked, then called black hearted for posting accurate information. There is a strong current in Christian Zionist thought that trivialises the sufferings of many people and exaggerate the suffering of Jews, and McVay knew exactly what I was talking about. I freely admit it could have been construed as derogatory, but deny it was hate-filled.

Let me also draw you attention to the fact that I said basically that he didn't know what he was talking about, but didn't attack his spiritual condition, like he did with me.

While I think the modernistic theology of Christian Zionism is dangerous, I think that most people who hold these views are well-meaning and generally "pillars" of our community.

Best regards
Tim

 You are right. ( although I'd hardly call it wild exaggerations) there is a stark difference between being wrong, and exaggerating.
 I just went over the initial exchange and I did over react. I automatically assumed your response was  anti-Semitic. Once I visited the URL you provided and saw the German Cross etc, I felt justified in my initial assessment. Then when I read the "Christian Zionist" comment, I was sure you were anti-Semitic.

 Even though you have stated that an apology would be meaningless - I offer it anyway. I apologize.

 Check my many other posts, I do not normally react in this foolish manner - This is a very sensitive topic - I'm sure you will concede this at least. I accept you at your word when you say...

 

I misjudged your intent - I admit I went overboard.

If there can be a positive aspect through all of this - it is the fact that you have actually educated me in what I now believe is a realistic assessment of the actual (or close to it) numbers of Jewish deaths during the war. I think Kalthzar stated it perfectly when he/she said...

 

Bronzesnake

You are a gracious person with Christian integrity.

Thank you for accepting my apology so...graciously.

Bronzesnake

He  ;)

nice to see you getting on. what were the elispses for? (that is the word for the "..." right? i seem to remember being taught that... ???)

Dictionary.com
A mark or series of marks (... or * * *, for example) used in writing or printing to indicate an omission, especially of letters or words.

 I used several "periods" to relay an after thought. In this case I used it to make a humorous comment. Tim said... "You are a gracious person" As an after thought mixed with a little light hearted humor, I thanked Tim for being..."gracious"

 I hope I didn't make things more confusing.

Bronzesnake

i thought it sounded a bit ominous
but hey so what