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I'm just wondering...
I'm sure most of you support Bush, right? But...why? I think he's done a terrible job these past four years. I understand that  he's pro-life and angainst gay marriage...but I mean, so? Don't get me wrong- I DEFFINATLEY pro-life, and don't support being gay either. It's just....well, Bush can't change the fact that abortion is leagol- that's not up to him. The congress and supreme court are the main people you have to convince. And Bush tried to outlaw gay-marriage, but it coiuldn't get passed...you have to look at other issues! Someone could have the best values and be the most religious person you've ever heard of! Yet they could also be the worst president America has ever seen. Just becuase they have good values doesn't mean that they're the right person to lead our nation.I think that Kerry-Edwards would make better leaders for the nation.

My mom for example, says that if the person is pro-life, they're
a good, Christian person most-likey, and will make better political dicisions...I think that's quite a *stretch* and a lot to conclude over just one belief. Yet, she thinks that by my "not standing up for pro-life, I'm "supporting abortion".  ....this makes me mad. I mean, I have reasons for not
supporting Bush! I don't think that God will be disapointed in me because I vote for a candidate who's pro-choice. I don't think that's a sin, but so many people tell me "it makes no sence to be pro-life the way you are, then support Kerry- you're a hypacrit!" I don't see how people can make a
candidates religious points of veiw the #1 or only thing they vote by! But I don't think that means thet they're the right
person to lead the nation...right?

Anyway, what do you think?

Look at all the MORAL issues and where he stands on them.



 >:(

Ditto

Where to begin?? :-\
Some random thoughts.....

A lot of people agreed with your thought process and that's what got us Clinton.  :-X

Integrity is important for the man who will lead our country.

Kerry is known for saying what he thinks people want to hear.

Here's some thoughts from others. Think about them in reference to the candidates and see if Kerry 'fits'....  :)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Character is what you are in the dark." ~Dwight L. Moody

"It's not hard to make decisions when you know what your values are." ~Roy Disney

“Character is the inward motivation to do what is right,
whatever the cost.” ~Interna'l Assoc. of Cities of Character

"What you are thunders so that I cannot hear what you say to the contrary." ~Ralph Waldo Emerson

"Character is always lost when a high ideal is sacrificed on the altar of conformity and popularity." ~Charles Spurgeon

"It is curious that physical courage should be so common in the world and moral courage so rare.” ~Mark Twain

"The foundations of our national policy will be laid in the pure and immutable principles of private morality." ~George Washington, First Inaugural
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

And a very important consideration is the fact that the President is also the Commander-in-Chief of our military.

So even without the issues of abortion and gay marriages, I'm still for Bush.... :)

 

More....

"Kerry is becoming infamous for his ability to take both sides of issues. His most glaring is:

1. Voting for the Iraq war.
2. Voting for $87B in war funding.
3. Voting against the same $87B in funding for the war.
4. and then complaining that the soldiers did not have the body armor to be provided by the $87B appropriation.
And amazingly

5. Kerry accused Dean of flip-flopping on the war issue....

There are a number of good sites and articles which expand on his 'dynamic' positions. I do not wish to duplicate other's efforts. I will only say, "See for yourself".
http://www.sportsmenforkerryedwards.com/flipflop.htm (http://www.sportsmenforkerryedwards.com/flipflop.htm)

If all of this seems confusing, don't worry. There is a single, underlying theme to his support. He supports what the audience of the moment supports. Ultimately, his stands are a reflection of audience positions and not personal belief. Knowing what he truly believes can only be seen in his votes, maybe."

 :)

sincereheart, you get "FOUR"Thumbs UP for both of your messages ;D



<:)))><

We have had five republican Presidents and two democrats since Roe versus Way, (abortion law). We now have had a republican controlled congress for several years and yet the law is not reversed.  Hmmmmm??

The law was enacted through the verifications of Nixon, (republican),  appointed supreme court members during Nixon's tenure in office. Yet democrats get all the blame when in reality both parties are guilty of upholding a law that allows the murder of newly conceived humans.

It is my understanding that Kerry is pro choice for others but personally does not believe in abortion. Hmmmm??

Has Bush ever taken a stand on it? Perhaps, but he is not using his influence with his republican controlled congress. I say boot them all out and see where the next bunch would take us.

If it be God's will.

ollie

I know- and that's not helping either.... ;)

I just don't really like anything that Bush has done!

He's giveing the rich tax breaks, he supports outsourcing and is giving these companies billions of dollars to help them, I think he rushed into war, he makes up soo much of the stuff he says about Kerry (not that everything Kerry says in neccesarily true...), habeing Cheney the #2 man deffinatley is no plus...the list goes on and on.

I like Kerry, and just don't see why lots people are voting Bush for the main reason of his values. (In one poll I saw, 15% of his supporters were voting Bush due to his faith/values.)

are you sure you can back this up? I gave a very elaborate answer for this in the Vote(long one) forum.  I AM NOT REFERING BY the WAY to WHERE KERRY STANDS ON THEM.  I AM REFERING TO THE QUESTION IMPLIED IN THE QUESTION: THAT QUESTION IS THIS:

Does morality penetrate in society when it becomes a fabric of legistlation in government?  Is that where the root anchor for morality and values is founded?  After you answer this question then i think it is fair enough to start talking about where kerry stands or NOT, - IE IF WE CALL OURSELVES CHRISTIANS... IF you are not, then you can raise the question without the implied preceeding question, because you wouldn't know any better foundation to dig to the grass root problem.

How do those who serve in the military feel about him? Wouldn't that be a better question?  :)

The last 'real' job I had was interesting. My 'boss' there was a very intelligent, outspoken, Christian man who lost his job due to unfounded gossip and rumors based on political correctness. The irony was that when I was subpoenaed, the lawyers didn't listen to any answers I gave. They were only listening for what they wanted to hear.   :-X

So the question I have is: Are you military?  ;)

     There is literally no definite way to know for sure, based on faith, which candidate is better.  There are many issues that they differ on dramatically – and depending on what issues are closest to your heart… you may have a different perspective.  
     Of course, abortion is a major issue for many Christians (myself included) and one of the deciding factors for many.  However, the Bible is fairly ambiguous or unclear about the issue of abortion… and there is certainly debate within the Christian community about whether or not abortion itself is sinful.  
     Specifically, if an anti-Christian law is proposed, we should all be warned and look to the Word for an answer… but in ordinary matters, we are able to vote freely… as long as we take the time and effort to listen to the Holy Spirit who speaks the truth to us all – if we only listen.
     A very important issue for me (I am a OIF veteran, recently come home) is the “situation” in Iraq.  You may have another issue that motivates you to "question."  Whatever the case, listen carefully my brothers and sisters… carefully indeed.  The freedom and right to vote is truly a blessing (believe me) and we should exercise it with study and respect.

May the Peace of Christ be with you.

Jaime

Brother Ollie,

President Bush is the only President since Roe vs. Wade to take the bull by the horns and give it his best shot. He actually got bills to a vote, something that nobody expected would happen. He almost got it done, and he hasn't given up.

Ref. ending abortion, no politician can come anywhere close to what Bush has tried and done. If you guessed that Kerry opposed what Bush tried to get done, you would be right. Kerry and fellow ultra-liberals were mad-dog opponents of many things President Bush tried to get done. If you want to see a new bunch get something done, get rid of the ultra-liberals in the House and the Senate, and don't put one in the White House.

Love In Christ,
Tom

My post was responding specifically to the "Commander in Chief" part.  :)

You weren't National Guard, were you?

There will be a new Supreme Court Judge appointed within the next four years, for sure. Do you want a liberal one who will vote for abortions, plus every other liberal cause? Or do you want a conservative judge who will protect life and vote consevative on matters that come before the court?

You must vote for Bush if you want to see abortions stopped, and lives saved. Kerry will vote for a judge who is in favor of abortions and every other liberal cause. Because Kerry IS a liberal. Bush is not.

I want you to seriously consider this in your hearts. This is not said in a mean way. But really ponder this for a moment.

Think what kind of a heart a person would have to have, what kind of thinking a person would have to have, what an unattachtchment to others a person would have to have if he could rape a woman, not one but many. Think about the terror that poor woman would be going through and the heartlessness of that man...the coldness, the wickedness of his heart. For power he did this, this is how he could feel power, by shaming and hurting the helpless.

Then think what kind of a person could shoot and kill young children and women for the sport of it. An evil person one with the same traits as above.

Who could cut off heads and ears? Barbaric isn't it...yet this is what John Kerry himself said HE did personally!

Out of his own mouth...he said he did these things!

If he can do these things, if he has that dark and wicked of a heart...I could never trust him. He is cold and calculating. He is evil.

     No, I wasn't - though I worked with National Guardsmen and Reservists often enough.  I have a great amount of respect for the RC (reserve component) personnel.  There are far more National Guardsmen and Reservists fighting this war than there are Active-Duty soldiers/sailors/marines… and you have to respect that – they have sacrificed quite a lot, just to be deployed to the theater.  My prayers always go out to them.  My unit (the 82nd ABN DIV) was based out of Fort Bragg, NC.

May the Peace of Christ be with you.

Jaime

Hello Berean_,

John Kerry has said many things that are on tape and available for all to hear. There is a common denominator with much of it:  he can't defend or explain it. He simply can't run away from it - it's all there for everyone to see and hear.

Love In Christ,
Tom

I want this to be on this page also...so it will not be skipped...

I want you to seriously consider this in your hearts. This is not said in a mean way. But really ponder this for a moment.

Think what kind of a heart a person would have to have, what kind of thinking a person would have to have, what an unattatchment to others a person would have to have if he could rape a woman, not one but many. Think about the terror that poor woman would be going through and the heartlessness of that man...the coldness, the wickedness of his heart. For power he did this, this is how he could feel power, by shaming and hurting the helpless.

Then think what kind of a person could shoot and kill young children and women for the sport of it. An evil person one with the same traits as above.

Who could cut off heads and ears? Barbaric isn't it...yet this is what John Kerry himself said HE did personally!

Out of his own mouth...he said he did these things!

If he can do these things, if he has that dark and wicked of a heart...I could never trust him. He is cold and calculating. He is evil.

Smart Kid!   ;D
(http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0TADjAs4WLGo3MT1L0ZFmZvVq9!D5SXNosjZ3PRapnMu93AaR4HstUk7Qn93xjheDBawWkztrwiVDEemz44CYeYwwX91Sld6P0QLVVtNNxFpRgUCnFEgytw/Smart%2520Kid.jpg?dc=4675492779720087872)

HAHA....you're on a roll!  Poor fellow does not look too happy about one of those messes..lol

Grace and Peace!

 ;D   ;D  ROFL - Thanks Sincereheart - I needed that laugh.

ROFL!!
Thanks I needed that sincereheart. ;D

oh my gosh! People....

Um...no, I'm not the military.....?
But yes, digme, I am Christian...

I never said I didn't think that abortion wasn't sinful...I think it's very sinful! In fact as I speak I'm wearing a shirt that says "ABOLISH ABORTION" writen on it- I'm saying that you can't judge a person's ability to lead a nation based on the one or two (faith-related) issues that so many people do.  

I'm just sick of people saying that it's a sin to support Kerry, and that God will punish you or whatever...
 

okay! No, deffinatley not good info! It'd be just a little better if it were true!!
Kerry did *not* do that stuff, he's *not* barbaric, and he deffinatley did *not* confess to this!!! I'm guessing you're refuring to the swiftboat ads? Lies! I saw his whole speech that he'd made that night, it was on just a few weeks ago. When he mentioned that stuff, he was refurring to what someone *else* had seen- deffinatly not what he had done! Come on! That's actually way funny...sorry, I have to laugh at that...do you honestly believe that like half of America would want someone who'd done those things to be their president? Do you really think that he would have gotten this far already with that kind of record? No. He'd of been gone from the begining if he had admited to murdering people...maybe you should go back and take a closer look- at the actual speech- *not* Bush's version of the speech.....

Sorry Saved_byChrist...Have you never listened to his speech to congress???

He spells it out loud and clear! He says not only have others done this...BUT HE ALSO SAYS HE HAS PARTAKEN OF THESE BARBARIC EVIL DEEDS!!! HE CONFESSES TO IT, WITH HIS OWN MOUTH!

No one had to say he did it...He said he did it!

It has been played over and over on TV...not part of any republican ads. I only wish the republicans would play this...then the country would know what a cold hearted, evil person Kerry really is. How else could you explain someone who could do such things?

You tell me? How do YOU explain such a person???

Saved_byChrist...I have heard this from the mouth of Kerry. Tom here has heard this. Wise up. So many people have seen him say this. Eye witnesses!

He is evil...a murderer, rapist, deceiver.

But I know that God is in control and that what God wants that will be.

I pray for the rapture...and I know that a lot of evil will come before the rapture...The Antichrist I think is soon on the horizon. The rapture is before him...so be it. YAHOO!!!!  ;D

A friend of mine thinks Kerry is the antichrist!! <I know, Randomness> but she told me this today, didn't give any back up on it>

Hello Berean_,

I though that everyone had seen Kerry testify to his atrocities in Vietnam. I think that I've seen it at least 5 times. You're right, it would make a great add for the Republicans. The only way that Kerry could run from it would be to say that he lied about it. Or, I guess he could say he changed his mind about what he did or didn't do. OR, he could plead insanity.   ;D

If I were guessing, I'd say it will be on television several more times before the election. It's his own words and his own record that he can't run from. I don't think that anyone pays much attention to the 527s.  I know that I don't.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Mr. Perfect for President
Michelle Malkin
September 29, 2004


TV cameras are brutally unforgiving -- especially during high-stakes election debates. They amplified the angst on Richard Nixon's brow, the inexperience in Dan Quayle's eyes, and the vulgarity of Al Gore's visage.

 How will Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry hold up under the spotlight? What will the cameras reveal? Beneath the Christophe-coifed hair, unnaturally taut skin and artificially enhanced tan, there are some naked attributes Kerry cannot conceal:

 His spite. His haughtiness. His condescending core.

 John Kerry detests his opponents. He detests his own staff. He detests anybody and anything that interferes with his political ambitions. Since returning from Vietnam, his main contribution to public discourse has been contempt, not courage. He possesses resentment, not hope. He does not inspire. He sulks.

 Much has been said about Kerry's superior argumentative skills. He was a champion debater at Yale; his former Republican opponents in Massachusetts have effusively praised his quick recall and rhetorical agility.

 This will no doubt impress the like-minded lefties in America's newsrooms and Hollywood salons. But in America's living rooms, a man's unvarnished character -- how he carries himself, how he treats others, how he responds to adversity -- speaks volumes over the stilted platitudes and smoothly memorized factoids that come out of his mouth.

 This isn't a race for prom king or "Jeopardy!" champion. It's a race for leader of the free world.

 Throughout the course of the campaign, Kerry has demonstrated a holier-than-thou hubris that continues to alienate security moms, Reagan Democrats and swing voters of all backgrounds. It's not just his disingenuous vacillation on foreign policy (he was for the war before he was against it, but he'd vote the same way) that bothers folks. It's not just the Kennedy-esque photo-ops of Kerry in athletic settings that scream vanity instead of vigor. It's the ugly little things that pile up and create the indelible image of a Royal Jerk:

 -- Such as publicly calling one of his own Secret Service agents a "son of a (bleep)" for accidentally knocking him down on his snowboard during a press availability in Ketchum, Idaho. "I don't fall," Kerry sniffed to reporters as he cursed the Secret Service agent on the record.

 -- Such as badmouthing NASA for releasing routine publicity photos of Kerry, dressed in a goofy-looking "bunny suit," while on a campaign visit to the shuttle Discovery at the Kennedy Space Center. After the pictures caused unforeseen embarrassment, Kerry sent his spokeswoman onto the cable news to falsely suggest that NASA had played a dirty trick.

 -- Such as burning his own campaign staff over his failure to effectively counter the claims of the Swift Boat Veterans. "The candidate is furious," a longtime senior Kerry adviser told the New York Daily News. "He knows the campaign was wrong. He wanted to go after the Swift boat attacks, but his top aides said no."

 -- Such as ridiculing President Bush for remaining with schoolchildren for a few extra minutes after learning of the Sept. 11 attacks, while neglecting to mention his own emotional paralysis at the Capitol that morning.

 -- And such as using an Outdoor Life magazine question about what his favorite gun is to tout his Vietnam War hero status again, then faulting his campaign staff for fabricating the weapon he named in his interview. "My favorite gun is the M-16 that saved my life and that of my crew in Vietnam," Kerry is quoted as saying in the October issue. "I don't own one of those now, but one of my reminders of my service is a Communist Chinese assault rifle."

 Now, according to Monday's New York Times: "Senator John Kerry's campaign said yesterday that Mr. Kerry did not own a Chinese assault rifle, as he was quoted as saying in Outdoor Life magazine, but a single-bolt-action military rifle, blaming aides who filled out the magazine's questionnaire on his behalf for the error."

 This is the paragon of strong moral leadership who will bring victory in the War on Terrorism and restore America's values? This Botox-ed egomaniac? This serial waffler? This ruthless buck-passer?

 Proverbs 18:12 counsels: "Before destruction the heart of man is haughty, and before honor is humility." It's a lesson Mr. Perfect will learn too late.

Michelle Malkin is a syndicated columnist and maintains her weblog at michellemalkin.com

©2004 Creators Syndicate, Inc.
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/michellemalkin/mm20040929.shtml (http://www.townhall.com/columnists/michellemalkin/mm20040929.shtml)

I have to hurry and go, but the Holy Catholic Church will not allow him to recieve the Holy Sacrements because of where he stands on killing babies. Do you people realize that 40,000,000 million babies have been killed since the whole law was passed.God will deal with us one of these days on this. Just think if Jesus had been aborted???!!!!

God willing, I will vote for Kerry on election day.

I am realizing more and more that President Bush and his administration has been lying about very important issues and taking advantage of good Christians.

There may be debate about what the Jesus teaches about some issues, but clearly lying is wrong.

I am one who thinks that our country's government depends on the public being honestly educated about current political events. Over the past four years the exact opposite has taken place.

Many Americans support attacking Iraq after believing a series of lies from the Bush Administration. As our source of information about terrorism, war, and foreign policy, the administration encourages a series of misconceptions that lead directly to their unfounded support.

http://www.pipa.org/OnlineReports/Iraq/Media_10_02_03_Report.pdf

The report at that link is an interesting study. It demonstrates some grave misconceptions held in this country.

Many people think that Iraq was directly involved in the 9/11 attacks.

A good number have been fooled into thinking we have found stockpiles of WMD in Iraq since the war ended.

Numerous Americans think most people in the world were not opposed to the US going into Iraq even w/o UN approval.

It also shows some interesting facts, like you are much more likely to have these misconceptions if you primarily watch Fox News. We are constantly getting lies from numerous sources, it's very hard to tell what's true and what's not.  Though I found a lot of things I didn't agree with in Michael Moore's movie Faerenheit 9/11, I also found that it presents a lot of facts that are not commonly known unless you watch a ton of C-SPAN or something.  However, the more critical and scary fact that the study I was talking about demonstrates is that that you are tremendously more likely to support the war if you have these misconceptions. Duh! Who wouldn't support the President if they though that Iraq sent people to attack us on September 11th, that Hussein had tons of nuclear warheads, and that the rest of the world is wishing that we'd go in . . . just that pesky UN trying to hold everyone back.

The Iraq war is only one of a long string of deceptions. I cannot vote to reelect a liar into office. These sorts of lies hijack our government and render our democracy ineffective. How can you vote for the best candidate if you're not given the right facts?  How can you trust someone like this and how can you consider him moral?

Florida Catholic -

Being a Catholic, do you allign yourself with the Catholic Church regarding the Church's views on abortion? How do you feel about Kerry's position on abortion? I believe that last I heard (he may have changed his mind by now) that he won't legislate against abortion. He would appoint Supreme Court justices who support abortion. I believe he would be against partial-birth infanticide, where doctors suck the brains out of a living baby after the head has passed through the gotcha11l canal. Many people don't realize this gruesome fact about partial birth abortion (infanticide). It is a medical procedure that is often used on babies that are found out to be down syndrome or other similar problems. It cannot be justified as saving the life of the mother, because the mother has to go through most of the birth anyway. It is infanticide. It should be banned.

you said,

So you think we will be more informed watching Dan Rather of CBS (See BS)? Get real. Talk about lying, forging documents... could Fox be worse than this?

And about Iraq -

Did you know that when Kerry was asked if he would have still voted for the Iraq war, even knowing what we know now that they didn't have WMD that he said he would!!!! He realizes like many other Americans do that Saddam and the US is better off where he is now.

Yes, I agree that the US was misinformed about WMD, but we had every reason to believe they were there. (I would not be at all suprised if we end up finding that Saddam moved them to Syria.) Both Pres. Clinton and Senator Kerry believed Saddam had WMD. And Saddam DID have them, and used them on the Kurds.

I don't believe Bush lied about WMD, there is a difference between LYING and being MISINFORMED.

Speaking about being misinformed, I wouldn't treat Michael Moore's movie as fact. Many "facts" he presented in his movie have been disproved by the bi-partisan 911 commission. You can buy the report for $10. Maybe you should read it.

And let's talk about lying....

John Kerry says he is for the "little guy." I assume he means me. I'm part of a middle class household. John and Teresa Kerry make a combined income of 6.8 million a year. Guess how much they paid in taxes last year? 12 % !!!! How much did George and Laura Bush pay in taxes last year? 30 %. How much does the average "little guy" pay in taxes? 20 %. When John Kerry says he wants to tax more the "wealthy 1 %" obviously he doesn't mean himself, as he can hire tax attorneys and CPA's to get out of paying his fair share.

Well, you should be proud to be voting for the "more intellectual" candidate. He would have to be intellectual because he must have 2 brains, one for each position on an issue.

You said,
So what's so great about the UN anyway? Why do you think they would help us? This is one sKerry thing I find about Kerry, he wants to give UN more soverignty over us. Who runs the UN? Arabs. Who are the terrorists trying to destroy us? Arabs. (Not to say that all arabs are terrorists, but it is disconcerting, isn't it? )  Aside from this, the UN wants the US to be weaker, both militarily and monitarily. Doesn't this concern you? It should.

You said,  

God willing? You sound unsure. Of course you are voting in Florida, no wonder. May you get confused by your ballot and mark the wrong box ;)

Take care,
Chesed

(PS, did you know that they changed the voting day to Nov. 3rd? They're doing it to trick the terrorists, pass it on to your other friends voting for Kerry.)

(http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0RwBmAwIVFejGq!xqS2AqOfUYuqOD2q!RUiVOnl4UAtyiD2HLECVdYLiu*mtVOw22yPWT7rRZP0GMZWo0bisnKfL*pPmIJUX0D1aDYZTsxaA/pic09741.jpg?dc=4675492779688198535)

 ;D

I hope everyone will vote, no matter whom they vote for. Please take advantage of your right to do so. So many others do not have that option. Remember... This isn't a test with one right answer. If you care enough, you will educate yourself with FACTS and cast a vote for the candidate that best meets your needs.
 This has been a difficult task for many and you are not alone in your uncertainty. I feel that quoting religion out of one side of our mouths and then supporting war (or a candidate because of war) out of the other is hypocritical. If I support a candidate because of his stance on say abortion but ignore the fact that that same candidate invades a Country and ignores the religious beliefs of those people, it would be hypocritical.
With so many issues facing this great country (USA) I have to ask if everyone has just forgotten about these issues? Is war and abortion all that matters?
 Facts we all know;
1.) this is a two party system and the best candidates for both parties have been chosen. These are great men, involved in politics and who have made it there lifes work to serve this country. I know I owe them both the respect that comes from such a life, mistakes and all. Like me, I hope they learn from them.
2.) election will take place in 19 days, with or without your vote.
3.) the past four years have brought many new terms and focuses to America that we have never faced before. Terrorism and the fears associated, these issues are cleary the focus of the majority of voters. I ask those of you who feel that way,
 If the war was to end in 6 months, what do you know about your candidate and what they offer beyond war?
4.) How can we allow our religion to lead our vote in a country that is so diverse? If we live in the USA and if we believe in the rights of freedom, we have to be willing to if not understand then atleast allow those who's beliefs differ to live as freely as we do.
5.) If you are a fair voter, if you search out the facts and educate yourself, you will know how to cast your vote. All the nonsence and rediculous remarks people make IE; "what if Jesus had been aborted" are simply appauling. The same people who make these comments believe in medical science but don't support the facts when it is a political issue. If a NON catholic woman is raped, are you telling me that was "Gods plan"? I think the only one in that situation that needs to worry about answering to God, would be the rapist. If a woman from another religion is pregnant and in a car accident, the doctors determine that Mother will die if they dont operate and if they do, the fetus will be lost, how can you chose? Would it not be just as murderous not to save the Mother? This fetus may not survive either way.
6.) We have experienced what is now almost four years of President Bush and I don't know about you but I still have no feeling of being any safer than I was on 9/11. I am looking forward to an end to this war not another 4 year term of negativity and deceit.
I in no way want to discourage anyone from voting and in no way am I trying to get you to vote for a specific candidate.
 I am merely offering an opinion and hope to see you at the voting both!
Scott

LOL ;D ;D ;D :) :) :) :) ;D



<:)))><

Bush isn't just misinformed, he's clearly lied.

The primary lie to remember is that he's misled so many Americans into believing that Iraq was linked to the September 11th Attacks!  That's totally false - the 9/11 report confirms that.  Faerenheit 9/11 is a movie that illuminates facts that are not learned from watching Fox News.  If you want balance you have to look at all the angles.

Bush is taking advantage of Christians for their votes by playing on the abortion issue.  He's had 4 years with a Republican Congress, as have all the Republican presidents since Roe v Wade in 1973.  Abortion as a whole is settled law; considering it otherwise would be like voting against Bush-Cheney because Cheney opposed the Equal Rights Amendment.  That's settled law, and has been for decades.  He didn't do anything to stop embryonic stem cell research and he hasn't put any more funding into it . . . talk about not taking a stand.  He's not defending the lives of the embryos and he's not supporting the research either.
This is why I'm voting on what is at issue in this election, I cannot in good conscience support a President who has lied to the people and totally undermined democracy.  I also find many of his policies anti-Christian, such as but not limited to the war in Iraq, taxes, and healthcare.

So what would people say is the correct Christian position on launching preemptive strikes against other countries?

Any scripture?

Saddam Hussein would have been gone a long time ago without the aid of the US.  People heavily involved in keeping him in power included George H. W. Bush, Dick Cheney, and Donald Rumsfeld.

Was it proper from a Christian perspective to supply Saddam with arms and keep him in power when he was using poisonous gas almost daily on Iranians and Kurds?  Or is the current problems the US having due to past behavior by these men?

Any scripture?

Is it proper from a Christian perspective for the US to be running up debt at the rate it is?

Any scripture?

Is it proper for either candidate to belong to Skull and Bones?

Any scripture?

I'm not asking for your opinions, because frankly as a Christian, I don't rely on your opinions, I rely on Scripture.  So could you help explain these things presently happening based on scripture.

Thank you,

Marv

(http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0TQCJAp8X!aMTTC1iMK38VXDOtyEgTEsMhmjpdEBWHVq1Nz3I2fnAJ17F8YSaxFy3d4bue1z8Z9wBxOdNjsLai0xnBVrkciKV8bQ8crQfdq!GpPDe42J9QA/voter%2520test.jpg?dc=4675492779745714510)

(http://www.bush-removal.com/assets/b-r_bushism_listen.jpg)

Floridarc, your killing me, LOL ;D ;D ;D



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(http://prodtn.cafepress.com/1/13247471_F_tn.jpg)

 ;D

(http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/graphics/dissent_aidingterror.jpg)

Let's not follow the Bush Administration in trying to squash intelligent discourse.

The debate we're having in this forum isn't because of traitors, but because debate is what makes our democracy great.

I started my search this week a Kerry supporter.  I've read uncountable websites along this subject, because my wife is voting for Bush because of Kerrys stance on abortion. My intent on researching this was to find reasons to argue with my wife to vote for Kerry.

I despise Bush, and it made me feel physically ill to even consider voting for him, but after everything I've read, it really comes down to one simple thing.  Being a Catholic, I cannot vote for someone who is pro-abortion.  Kerry is. As much as I can't stand Bush, I know that by voting for Kerry I will be supporting abortion. By voting for a third party I will technically aiding Kerry by not giving Bush my vote, and thus be technically aiding abortion.

All the other things I can't stand about Bush don't outweigh the millions of unborn children Kerry will allow to die. Even when I look for arguments that there's no guarantee that Bush will be able to stop abortion, (certainly he Can't stop it alone) I can't find enough to support me to vote for Kerry because of the simple fact that by voting for Kerry (or by Not voting for Bush) my vote will be For abortion.

Now, when I did finally admit to myself that I Did have to vote for Bush because of all this, I felt comforted; A couple of days ago I felt Sick at the thought that I was being "forced" to vote for Bush because of my faith, but I'm now at peace with it.

Florida Catholic, I can only give you the advice to search and read more about it. Perhaps you might even try searching for reasons to prove you should vote for Kerry, as I did, and yet still find the truth. Perhap you'll find yourself led to vote for Kerry after all, but I'll leave you with these few links to start with, or you could just read the Bible and find the Truth there, eh? ;o)  there's still time before the election.

read this thread:
http://www.catholic-pages.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2770&whichpage=1
this site,
http://www.priestsforlife.org/elections

these are just the last 2 I came across, there's certainly Many Many more,
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=voting+for+kerry+is+a+sin

If you still believe by voting for Bush you'd be voting for a more moral leader, I don't think you've done a very effective search of these candidates.  Just consider what you typed into to google to find these webpages, "Voting for Kerry is a Sin".  That is the string that's going to get you the most convincing string of arguments to support Kerry.

Bush has been effective in tricking many Americans into believing that which is not true.  Just take a look at:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2004-10-04-alqaeda-saddam_x.htm

Too many Americans have been tricked into believing that Saddam was involved in the attacks of September 11th.  

Similarly, Bush has tricked many into thinking he's going to do something about abortion.  He said something about balancing ethics and science in the second debate.  He's had four years and hasn't really done anything . . . and I don't think Kerry has any big plans on changing abortion rules either.  MAYBE voting for the third candidate mentioned in your article is a more moral vote (I just don't know enough about him) . . . but the argument can't really be made for Bush vs Kerry.

But the argument can be made specifically Against Kerry simply based on just his stance on abortion, as a Catholic you should see that, have you read any of those links?  If not, then at least read this one
http://www.catholic.org/featured/headline.php?ID=1321

I don't want to vote for Bush anymore than you do, and like I said before, read both parts, those for and against Kerry.  I didn't say just to read only the reasons to vote for Kerry, which you can certainly find aplenty using the google search I posted, but read everything you can about both.

I certainly Do Not think Bush is a more moral leader over all, and I disagree with alost everything about Bush, I see him on the telly and he makes me sick*lol*  but there's the matter of "proportionate reasons".

Also perhaps you missed the point where I stated I've spent the better part of the week researching this, these few links I gave were to start you off, not a total tally

Oompa Loompa Doopity Doo...



(http://cadethappy.com/gallery/albums/LatestOfferings/oompa.gif)

Probably the best place to start is with what each party stands for.  If you could name 3 (or more) of the most important issues for you this upcoming election what would they be?  Once you answer these, go to....

http://www.rnc.org

and

http://www.dnc.org

and educate yourself on what each party stands for.   After that ask God how he would have you vote.  Then......

VOTE!

Grace and Peace!

Thanks for the Links Bro :)


I will VOTE for Bush :)



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Veiled barbs constitute 'intelligent discourse' in your book? Let's not follow Kerry and talk out of both sides of our mouth. :P


Actually, the debate is about which candidate is best suited to run this country. A traitor isn't.  ;)

Ouch...thats gotta sting!  ;)

Calling those who disagree traitors is exactly what I meant by "squashing intelligent discourse".  Hurling insults and labels rather than debating the logic in the issues is exactly what destroys our democracy.

I did indeed read the articles.  Did you look at the websites posted by others?  I found the argument to be flawed.  How many people do you except to die during a Bush reelection vs a Kerry election?  Why would you count an embryo to be a human life?  Do you have some scripture that is behind your thought that an embryo is a human life?

The leaders of the church have been wrong before, I think it's up to all Christians to study the issues, the scripture, and reflect and pray on what you know the facts to be.

Jer 1:5  Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Of course now I'm guessing we will see what squashing intelligent discourse really means.   :-\

Grace and Peace!

Thanks, 2nd Timothy for answering one of my questions with scripture.  I think that is exactly the type of discourse we need to have.  However I disagree that that scripture in any way says that life begins at conception.  If anything this says that God knows you even before conception.  It does not stipulate that your human life begins when you are conceived.

A brief definition of know.

1. To perceive with certainty; to understand clearly; to have a clear and certain perception of truth, fact, or any thing that actually exists. To know a thing pre

includes all doubt or uncertainty of its existence. We know what we see with our eyes, or perceive by other senses.

3. To distinguish; as, to know one man from another.

:::wonders how much more God can know someone when He says he does:::

Jer 1:5  Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee;

(notice WHO does the forming and where it is preformed)

The hebrew used for the word knew in this passage...

H3045
yaw-dah'
A primitive root; to know (properly to ascertain by seeing); used in a great variety of senses, figuratively, literally, euphemistically and inferentially (including observation, care, recognition; and causatively instruction, designation, punishment, etc.): - acknowledge, acquaintance (-ted with), advise, answer, appoint, assuredly, be aware, [un-] awares, can [-not], certainly, for a certainty, comprehend, consider, X could they, cunning, declare, be diligent, (can, cause to) discern, discover, endued with, familiar friend, famous, feel, can have, be [ig-] norant, instruct, kinsfolk, kinsman, (cause to, let, make) know, (come to give, have, take) knowledge, have [knowledge], (be, make, make to be, make self) known, + be learned, + lie by man, mark, perceive, privy to, X prognosticator, regard, have respect, skilful, shew, can (man of) skill, be sure, of a surety, teach, (can) tell, understand, have [understanding], X will be, wist, wit, wot.

How sad that some willingly end what God knew (and formed), and cares about.


Continuing..
Jer 1:5b and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee

note again who sanctified what, and where

SANC'TIFIED, pp.

1. Made holy; consecrated; set apart for sacred services.

2. Affectedly holy.

Ending anything that God has made holy or set apart for sacred service should make one tremble.

Disagree if you like, but I for one will agree with He who forms life in the womb.  And you can bet my vote will reflect that view.

Grace and Peace!

Actually, Kerry isn't a traitor because he disagrees.  :) He's a traitor by the definition of the word:
1 : one who betrays another's trust or is false to an obligation or duty
2 : one who commits treason

The 'logic in the issue' has been debated. Feel free to search it out.  :)

::)

So why do you stay with a church if you disagree with it?  :)

You've brought up a lot of definitions, but you haven't connected them with the discussion very well.  All the definitions of the words in the scripture do not speak to my question, where does the scripture talk about where your human life begins?  God knowing you before you are formed in the belly is totally different.

You might ask, is there ANY scripture that'd speak to that exact point?  I'd say yes.  Let's look to Genesis 2:5

"the LORD God formed the man [5] from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being."  This says to me that the point at which you are able to take your first breaths

Also, how has Kerry "betrayed another's trust or is false to an obligation or duty"?

That's exactly the point I made with the earlier article about how Bush has lied to Americans to make them believe that Saddam was involved in the September 11th attacks.

As to why I would stay with the church that I have disagreed with is exactly like the common Republican argument of "if you're unhappy with what's going on in the country, you should move to another country".  These are truly unpatriotic arguments that are meant to "squash intelligent discourse".  As to the church being wrong . . . are you saying you've agreed with everything the church has ever engaged in, say the Crusades for example?

As I previously stated: "The 'logic in the issue' has been debated. Feel free to search it out."  :)

Really?  ::)
Are the Crusades something happening NOW that I disagree with?  :)

Apparently, you consider 'intelligent discourse' to be the kind that agrees with you.

Job 31:15 Did not he that made me in the womb make him? and did not one fashion us in the womb?

 :)

Isaiah 44:2 This is what the LORD says-
he who made you, who formed you in the womb,
and who will help you:

Psalm 139:13 For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother's womb.

Isaiah 44:24 "This is what the LORD says-
your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb:

Isaiah 49:5 And now the LORD says-
he who formed me in the womb to be his servant

Luke 1:41
When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.

Luke 1:44
As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy.

 ::)

Genesis 38:27
When the time came for her to give birth, there were twin boys in her womb.

Were they really twins? Were they really boys? "In her womb..."?  ::)

Romans 7:5
For as long as we lived that old way of life, doing whatever we felt we could get away with, sin was calling most of the shots as the old law code hemmed us in. And this made us all the more rebellious. In the end, all we had to show for it was miscarriages and stillbirths.

And with abortion rights all we have to show for it -- thanks to intelligent discourse  ::) -- is stillborn BABIES. Babies that are 'born' dead. Killed in the womb.

Ecclesiastes 11:5
As you do not know the path of the wind,
or how the body is formed in a mother's womb,
so you cannot understand the work of God,
the Maker of all things.

Jeremiah 20:17
For he did not kill me in the womb,...

Hosea 13:
13 "When birth pangs signaled it was time to be born,
Ephraim was too stupid to come out of the womb.



Galatians 1:15 But when God, who set me apart from birth [1] and called me by his grace,

1. 1:15 Or from my mother's womb

ROFL! Never read that in plain english before  ;D

sorry carry on  :-X

Surely you are able to see the difference here arent you?   You think my comments are not connected, but you ignore the main point God is making.   Either way, lets use your argument for a moment......

So if you happened along in the Garden while God was forming Adam from dust in the palms of His hands, you have a few questions to ask yourself here....

1.  Assuming you've decided, "I don't want Adam" (as if this should really be a choice in the first place), would God be upset with me if I grabbed that dust from HIS hands and destroyed it?  Surely it wont matter because He has yet to breath life into his nostrils.   ::)    This IMO would be pretty bold!

2.  As an american (pretend thats where the garden is) I have a right to undo what God is forming in the palms of His hands because I don't see anything morally wrong with it, and its my RIGHT to choose, as long as Adam is not breathing yet, AND, I really don't see in scripture when Life begins so God wont mind...right?  

Do you see anything wrong with this picture?   Even though Adam was not formed in the womb (which BTW is a poor argument anyways), He was still Gods handy work from the moment God conceived/knew him in His mind.   You on the other hand, are basing your decision on your standard of morals, rather than Gods.   Your argument is not with me or anyone else here in this thread.....its with God.   He is the one doing the forming.   I have this mental image of you standing there with Almighty God wrestling over a mound of dirt in His hands in some sort of tug-a-war game.   Sounds kind of silly, but its actually frightning if you think about it long enough.

Perhaps a better question than when does life begin is.....

Is my opinion of what is moral, more righteous than Gods?   Is it alright for me to undo what God is forming?   As a believer, am I giving my life, decisions, and path, completely to His will rather than my own?   Who is completely in charge of MY life?

If you're having trouble answering any of the above questions, then I suggest you spend a little time asking HIM who is running the show in your life, and what He really thinks about abortion.   Because in the end, it is HE we will answer to, not any personality in this thread.   You think we are squashing intelligent discourse here?  What till He is the one posting on judgment day!   ;)   In the mean time, you can take it from me.....I don't think He appreciates anyone undoing what He is in the middle of forming, whether that be from the dust of the earth, or the womb of a mother.   After all, its HIS will we seek in our lives, not our own.   Once we start basing our morals on what we think is right, we have already missed the mark altogether.

Grace and Peace!

Excellent posts SH   :)

Grace and Peace!

First of all lets cover the platforms. Democrats are for many things that are against the teachings of the Bible.

There is a movement in the Democratic party turning toward Socialism. Socialism is not good for our country. It is one step away from communism. The taking away of our rights to worship as we so believe, our individual freedoms as Americans and as Christians.

The Republicans for the most part are just the opposite. For freedoms both religious and non-religious.

Now a little on the individual canidates.

JF Kerry has a bad record. Not going to get into unsubtantiated bashing here just those things that are proven facts. Yes Kerry served in Viet Nam. I will not attack his service. I was not with him and do not know the facts on that. I did serve in Viet Nam and I do know what he did when he returned from there.

What he did was traitorous. He joined an anti-govn't group while still serving obligated military time. He also had a secret meeting in Paris with the head of North Vietnam ( a communist) at a time when he was not an official representative of the U.S. He broke laws in both of these instances both legal and moral and in doing so caused a great deal of suffering for other Americans.

He should not have even been allowed to run for Senate or President as the law states that anyone having belonged to an anti-govn't group or associating with the enemy is not qualified to run for these offices.

His voting record as a Senator has been inconsistant. Saying one thing and doing another. Voting one way and then voting another.

GW Bush has at least been consistant in his record. We know more about what he is going to do. Is he perfect? No man is perfect but at least he is more in line with Biblical values and in the interests of all Americans.

Amen Paster Roger!   Nice to see you posting in the forums brother.

Grace and Peace!

Thank you 2nd Timothy, always a pleasure to be in fellowship with other Christians.

May God bless you, brother.

Pastor Roger,

Here's a second AMEN!!!!

WELCOME!!! to Christians Unite Brother.


I sincerely hope that you enjoy the fellowship of many sweet Christians here.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Thank you Blackeyedpeas. From what I have seen so far I am sure that I will.

Here's your third AMEN!!!! And you get"TWO"Thumbs UP


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oh my gosh...you guys, come on! You can not tell me that only two people on this site support Kerry. Whether more people are willing to admit it or not...not all Christians support Bush and you know it. It's not a sin to vote for Kerry, and *plenty* of good Christians are.

Thank you Brother Love.

Saved_byChrist


Not a sin to vote for Kerry when he stands for everything the Bible teaches against?

Killing babies, homosexualism, socialism, supporting communism, not to mention what he has done to his own people.

Then having been a member of an anti-government organisation he should not even have been allowed to run for the Senate let alone President.

AMEN!!!! You Get "TWO"UP



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Saved_byChrist,

I'm hoping and praying that 2 Christians voting for Kerry in the entire country will be the limit.

Love In Christ,
Tom

And it is my prayer that God will open the eyes of those Christians.

I doubt that many Calvinists will vote for either, I wont be.

Who would you suggest voting for? No vote at all would be a total waste, keeping silent at a time when Christians should be speaking out.

We're thinking about writing in Howard Philips, the head of the Conservative Collalition, but we may vote for the other catagories and leave the president box blank. Very few of us will be able to vote for a liberal like Kerry, or a murderer like Bush.

Who did Bush murder?  ???

I can't answer you, because my posts and topic are being deleted. Blind leaders of the blind.

http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?board=22;action=usersrecentposts;userid=2700;user=Tim%20Vaughan (http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?board=22;action=usersrecentposts;userid=2700;user=Tim%20Vaughan)

Are you okay? Your posts are all there.  ???

I don't see Bush as a murderer. War is sometimes of necessity if that is what you are talking about.

At least you are being intelligent enough to vote for Kerry.

Your false accusations of someone deleting your posts all over the forum is a lie. If you violate the forum rules and it becomes necessary to delete one of your posts, I'll try to make sure the details of your warning and the deletion is posted publicly. Your accusations are lies.

If you need help in finding your posts, I'll be happy to help you. In the meantime, stop your lies.

Moderator

I am unused to this forum, and couldn't find some of them. I see them now.

Right?? So, is this your apology for your lies all over the forum?

Moderator

A simple demonstration here folks.

A QUESTION TO ALL KERRY SUPPORTERS.
Why is your candidate the best man to run the country?

1 or 2 paragraphs only please.

Grace and Peace!

Something is a lie only when the motive is wrong. The person who said yesterday that the 3 million Polish Jews weren't part of the 6 million total holocaust victims wasn't lying. This is pretty basic stuff. We both made inaccurate statements based on what we believed to be the truth.

Kerrys meeting with the North Vietnamese Leaders prior to the end of the war made him - to me - a traitor.  
A traitor is not the kind of leader I would follow.

No takers?  hmmm

The next president will likely appoint four new Supreme Court Judges.  This could have a real impact on issues like abortion, so-called gay marriage ,Pledge of Allegience cases and other issues of interest to Christians.

Very true acinom.   This election will have impact far byond the 4 year term.   One thing that really gets my blood pumping are Judges legislating from the bench when they are not held accountable by the people.   After all, this nation is suppose to be for the people and by the people.   Another reason why this election is so important, and will probably have long term affect our legislating court system.

Grace and Peace!

oops....forgot to say welcome aboard acinom.   Hope you enjoy CU!

Grace and Peace!

From World Net Daily:

The first documentary evidence that Vietnamese communists were directly steering John Kerry's antiwar group Vietnam Veterans Against the War has been discovered in a U.S. archive, according to a researcher who spoke with WorldNetDaily.

One freshly unearthed document, captured by the U.S. from Vietnamese communists in 1971 and later translated, indicates the Viet Cong and North Vietnamese delegations to the Paris peace talks that year were used as the communications link to direct the activities of Kerry and other antiwar activists who attended.

Kerry insists he attended the talks only because he happened to be in France on his honeymoon and maintains he met with both sides. But previously revealed records indicate the future senator made two, and possibly three, trips to Paris to meet with Viet Cong leader Madame Nguyen Thi Binh then promote her plan's demand for U.S. surrender.

Jerome Corsi, a specialist on the Vietnam era, told WND the new discoveries are the "most remarkable documents I've seen in the entire history of the antiwar movement."

"We're not going to say he's an agent for Vietnamese communists, but it's the next thing to it," he said. "Whether he was consciously carrying out their direction or naively doing what they wanted, it amounted to the same thing -- he advanced their cause."

no...no takers...and I wonder why! Geesh! I'm not gonna sit here and waste my time telling you why I like Kerry...because this is stupid. There is no debate here! It's like two against the rest of the site...my opinions aren't going to change your minds anyway...I don't feel like talking about this anymore at all. I'm sooooo sick of this whole election....uh. I hate polotics...everyone lies and cheats, yes, even the "wonderful, angelic" George Dubaya Bush.

Okay, I have in front of me a newspaper clipping from the opinions collumn...A Catholic who's voting for Kerry
   "If George Bush were so intent on fostering the culture of life that Catholics hold so dear, he would not have rushed into a war that even the Pope called unjust.
   "During his years as governer of Texas, he would have commuted the death sentences of prison inmates. Instead, in stark contrast to Catholic teaching, he presided over the executions of more than a hundred of them.
   "Today, he would be choosing to use extant but now un-needed or unwanted frozen embryos to further stem cell research and unleash the promises it holds for improving life. Instead, in a morally bankrupt act of ommision, he chooses to do nothing, so inevitably these embryos are fated to a meaningless destruction. I'm a Catholic and I'm voting for a fellow Catholic; Sen. John Kerry."
                                               -Annie Rahman

Yeah, so there's one opinion, but I don't feel like discussing this anymore so...make of that what you will. However, I'm not  saying that I agree with everything Annie says, but I'm not say'n I don't. I will say that I agree with her last sentence without a doubt.

Actually, I would also be interested in reading why you DO like Kerry as opposed to those who pop in and rudely say that we shouldn't vote for Bush. In all fairness, I doubt it would change my mind since I've spent too much time researching both of the main candidates but I would be interested in reading your thoughts.  :)

As long as the reason to vote for Kerry is just to not vote for Bush..... :-\

Saved_byChrist, I completely understand your frustration.   There are many Bush supporters here.   The real point of my question was to demonstrate an observation I have noted.   Everyone I have asked this question to, cannot give me 1 or 2 paragraphs as to why Kerry should be the man, without spending a good part of their answer negating Bush....even though the question was about Kerry.    Instead of answering why Kerry is the best man, its always Anybody but Bush.   I'm sure you might feel ganged up on so to speak, but can you see it from this perspective?   If it cannot be answered Why is Kerry the best man without mentioning why Bush is not, then maybe Kerry politics have not truely been considered.   Just a thought.




SH, you are sharp girl!   ;)   This WAS the whole point of my question.    

I've already voted, so I'm sorta over the debating, but I think Kerry supporters should at least be able to give 2 or 3 reasons why their guy is the guy....and not why Bush is not.

Grace and Peace!

Three of the reasons I support Kerry:

The presidency is a position that deals with very complex issues.  John Kerry has demonstrated that he has the analytical skills to deal with the details of very complicated topics and to handle the fine lines in a logical way.

The preisdent has a duty to defend the interests of everyday Americans.  John Kerry takes positions that consistently benefit everyday Americans - taxes, healthcare, labor laws etc..  These positions show greater concern for those who are poor and disadvantaged.

The current climate calls for a tremendous grasp of foreign policy.  John Kerry has a strong understanding of working with others and developing allies.  His position leads the US to be stronger in a world that is increasingly globally interdependent.

As a Canadian, I obviously have no vote in your election. However, as a politically aware Canadian, I understand all to well the ramifications of U.S. policy.  As such, I would love to see Bush re-elected.  Thanks to his poor economic policy, the canadian dollar is currently trading at a 12 year high, Canadian challenges with the WTO are comming back with pro-Canadaian decisions, and our own economy is thankfully soaking up all of the international investment that is fleeing an unstable U.S. market.  As far as foreign policy, Canada, the peacable kingdom has never looked so good in the eyes of NATO, UN or EU allies.  In terms of the middle east, we're looked at as little more than the infidels little quiet neigbor.  So, if you wouldn't mind, please re-elect Bush, because his incompotence means my life gets better!

I hadn't checked this thread for awhile but thought I would say why I am now a Kerry supporter.

I really thought Edwards was the proper choice so I would have said that he was the best man, but that choice is no longer available.

Kerry is slow to anger.  This is a complicated War we are in, simple direct actions are likely to be simply wrong.  We must consider the effects our actions will have years from now, not just shoot from the hip.  Kerry is clearly more suited to think situations over before taking action.  

Kerry's tax policy is better for the middle class.  The moral strength of our country comes from the middle class.  The Middle Class is in great danger of shrinking.   A US without a large Middle Class is just another third-world country.  

Kerry is willing to cooperate with other countries.  The US must turn from the idea that we are the only superpower and it's our way or the highway.  We aren't going to win anything if it's the US against the World.  Kerry is quite well suited to meet with and negotiate favorable positions for the US even with countries that aren't always our best friends.

Kerry's health care plan is the better of the two.  That isn't saying a lot, but it is better.  It would help where people are loosing their whole life's work to catastrophic health care costs.  It would also help remove some of the fear employers have of hiring someone who might or does have health issues.

That's a nutshell, but you wanted it short.

Marv

Dude?  Ya know whatever you're smokin'...you really should stop... ;D

Is that the reason he is making accusations against Bush before he has all the facts (the missing weapons). Is that the reason that he keeps changing his mind on how he votes on different bills.


Rolling back tax cuts that Bush put in helps the middle class, right.



Cooperating with the enemy so they get their way and are able to overcome us.


I am handicapped and I don't see Kerry's health "plan" helping anyone. In fact it will cause more health problems by allowing prescription drugs that are not safe for consumption to be used. His "plan" also calls for our children to get certain types of care without their parents consent or notification.

I must disagree my friend.  I wouldn't class Kerry as more suited to think situations over before taking action as much as I would more likely to think future, personal political ramifications over before taking action.  If it hurts him in the polls...he'll flip that flop quicker than flies on a cow patty.  K.  Maybe that's a bad analogy...  ;D


I would find it interesting to see just who makes up the middle class in Kerry's viewpoint.  I, most likely, would be considered filthy rich.  In the scheme of things, I'm on the low end of middle class.  My ends don't always meet.  In my opinion, if elected, Kerry will tax the daylights out of me.  He's already said he would.  Bush, gave me money back when he came in, and I haven't been taxed any greater.  But that's just me.


I will agree to a point, but not as a whole.  The US needs to be a bit more humble in my opinion.  But Kerry is not willing to stand up and lead without the approval of the world as a whole.  In the previous presidency, no one enforced the sanctions/edicts from the UN on Iraq.  We continued to send inspectors, most of whom were turned away.  Waiting for the world to approve our action was not the wise course.  Bush came in and did what the UN should have done to begin with, but was waiting for someone with the...ahem, motivation to get the job done.  If not, we would not have had the coalition we had going into the war.

And here's a little soapbox I'll hop up on for a minute.  Who opposed us the greatest in this war?  France, Germany and Russia - all of whom had a cut in the food for oil deal.  They were making money off of the Iraqui's refusal to acquiesce to the UN's requests.  And we're worried about having offended them?  France should be allied with us after all we have done for them.  Germany should be allied with us after all we have done for them.  Russia should have sense enough to ally with us after all we have done for them when their economy was about to collapse.  I think Bush did the right thing, and in a far better fashion than I would have.  I'd have dumped NATO in the trash after all that.


Dangerous ground here...

Well, them's my two-cents worth.  Not really worth that much, but I sure feel better!

Brothers and Sisters,

Sarcastic mode ON:

We need to remember that there is NO terrorist threat.

There are no weapons in Iraq.

There are no terrorists in Iraq.

Iraq is the wrong war..................on and on. Everyone involved is incompetent and stupid, including our Allies. Just trust Kerry - he has a plan.

The Bush Administration is incompetent.

Our military leaders are incompetent.

Our Armed Forces are incompetent.

Homeland Security is incompetent.

Kerry has a better plan, and he has a plan for a plan. Nobody knows what it is, but it's better than all other plans.

What would Kerry do differently?  Answer - Everything.
 
See the above question and ask HOW!!

Kerry would have passed a GLOBAL TEST before doing anything. Kerry voted no for the first Gulf War, so it didn't pass the GLOBAL TEST.

Kerry would have gotten France, Germany, Russia, and China as Allies in the current Iraq war. He calls the Allies we have the bribed and coerced. By the way, Kerry doesn't count the sacrifice of the people of Iraq in fighting this war. Kerry made fun of the new Iraq leader when he gave a heart-felt speech thanking America.

UM??? - How would Kerry have gotten France, Germany, Russian and China as Allies while they were violating the UN sanctions that they voted for? Why would those countries sacrifice the many billions of dollars of corruption they were involved in? In fact, they represent the absolute corruption of the United Nations.

Just trust Kerry - He will hunt the terrorists down wherever they are, just not Iraq. In fact, Kerry has a plan to hunt them down and a GLOBAL TEST to pass before anything is done.

Kerry will win the war in Iraq - he has a plan. It's the wrong war............., and everyone fighting it is incompetent, but Kerry will win it.
___________________________________

WOW!! - A tape released today is Bin Laden campaigning for Kerry. He couldn't send a bomb, so his network is crippled, falling apart, and dying all over the world. The Bush Administration has done what I thought was impossible. There hasn't been another terrorist attack on our soil since 9-11, and I thought that accomplishment was totally impossible. That doesn't mean that we won't get hit tomorrow, but it does mean that our Administration, Intelligence, Armed Forces, and Police agencies have done an unbelievable and impressive job.

BUT, everyone was incompetent, and Kerry has a plan to do everything differently.

If the above isn't enough, Kerry has a plan to raise taxes, give us socialized medical care, protect abortion, have the nation wink at gay marriage, use taxpayer dollars for abortions, allow juveniles to get abortions without parental consent or notification, and spend over a trillion dollars with big government programs that are not currently funded.

blackeyedpeas,

Love your sarcasm..




One more reason to:

VOTE FOR BUSH!

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Top of the fold -- Bush lied, he misled us...

At least, that has been John Kerry's most oft-repeated assertion for the last six months.

It is no coincidence that Kerry would use such a claim as the foundation of his campaign rhetoric. In fact, it is enlightening. You see, campaign hacks for a challenger use focus groups to determine their candidate's most distinguished flaw, and then tutor their candidate on how to cast the incumbent with a greater measure of that flaw. Clearly, John Kerry's most apparent liabilities are his lack of integrity and lack of fitness for command -- and there is plenty of evidence for both deficiencies.

Kerry insists, "I've never, ever used the harshest word ['lie']." But of course, that is a lie. Preceding that remark, he said, "This administration has lied to us.  They have misled us." After it, he said, "[Bush] failed to tell you the truth. ... I believe that it is important to tell the truth to the American people."

A charter member of Kerry's Leftist cadre, Al Franken, wrote a book a few years back entitled, "Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them." Apparently, Kerry adopted it as his campaign playbook. While the "F" in JFK may stand for "fib," "fabrication," "falsehood,"
"fallacy," "feint," "forgery," "fake," and, phonetically speaking, "phony," it also stands for "flip-flop." Kerry's strategy to paint President George W. Bush as a liar is subterfuge to divert attention from Kerry's own extensive record of fibs and flips. As readers of this column well know, Kerry has been on both sides of just about every issue -- which is to say, he has lied to just about everyone at one time or another.

In this, the last Patriot essay before Election Day, 2004, it is worth reviewing a few of Kerry's lies -- in his own words. We don't have sufficient bandwidth to publish all of them, but those that follow are both representative, and typically transparent, of Kerry's mendacity.

Who can forget these memorable recollections from Kerry's "heroics" in Vietnam: "I remember spending Christmas Day of 1968 five miles across the Cambodian border. I have that memory which is seared -- seared -- in me. ... [American military personnel in Vietnam] personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, [blew] up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to...the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country. ... There are all kinds of atrocities and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed...."

He is still trying to make amends for those lies: "When it comes to war and peace, I will tell the truth to the American people.... For 35 years I have stood up, and fought, and kept faith with my fellow veterans. [Bush has] not kept faith with veterans across this country. And one of the first definitions of patriotism is keeping faith with those who wore the uniform of our country."

On the economy, Kerry lies: "Now, the president has presided over an economy where we've lost 1.6 million jobs. The first president in 72 years to lose jobs. ... This is the worst economy since Herbert Hoover. ... This president chose a tax cut over homeland
security. ... We didn't need that tax cut. ... I'm fighting for the middle class."

On social issues, Kerry lies: "They are going to privatize your Social Security. ... They're taking money from Social Security and transferring it to the wealthiest people in America to drive us into debt. ... I believe it's time to stop viewing innovative approaches as anomalies or threats to traditional public schools and begin seeing them as part of the future of public education. ... Public schools need resources and support, and vouchers drain them of both. ... I oppose abortion, personally. I don't like abortion. I believe life does begin at conception. ... I have a plan to cover all [make that 25 of 45 million uninsured] Americans. ... I am not proposing a government-run [healthcare] program. It is not a government takeover. The government has nothing to do with it."

___________________See Part Two

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On the most important issue of the day, our worldwide war against Jihadi terrorists, and particularly the Jihadi warfront in Iraq, Kerry lies: "We were safer before President Bush came to office. I went to meet with the members of the Security Council in the week before we voted. I went to New York. I talked to all of them. ... I sat with the French and British, Germans, with the entire Security Council. ... I will never hesitate to use force when it is required. Any attack will be met with a swift and certain response. ... America must fight and win two wars. The war in Iraq and the war on terror. ... President Bush likes to
confuse the two. ... In fact, Iraq was a profound diversion from that war [on terror] and the battle against the enemy. ... I can do a better job of protecting America's security because the [global] test that I was talking about was a test of legitimacy, not just in the globe, but elsewhere. ... If George Bush were to be re-elected .... there is great potential [that he would re-instate the draft]."

And there's much more from Kerry on the war: "Osama bin Laden escaped in the mountains of Tora Bora. We had him surrounded. But we didn't use American forces, the best trained in the world, to go kill him. The president relied on Afghan warlords. ... We are 90 percent of the casualties in Iraq. ... The war costs -- $200 billion. And it's in Iraq. And Iraq is not even the center of the focus on the war on terror. I don't think any United States Senator is going to abandon our troops and recklessly leave Iraq to whatever follows as a result of simply cutting and running. That's irresponsible. ... My position on Iraq has been consistent. ... I actually did vote for the $87 billion before I voted against it.... That's not a flip-flop. That's not a flip-flop. ... I have no intention of wilting. I've never wilted in my life. And I've never wavered in my life. ... Let me tell you straight up: I've never changed my mind about Iraq."

On the flip-side, Kerry has said of the war in Iraq: "Saddam Hussein has used weapons of mass destruction against his own people.... I think we ought to put the heat on Saddam
Hussein. I've said that for a number of years. I criticized the Clinton administration for backing off.... I think we need to put the pressure on, no matter what the evidence is about September 11. .... I think we clearly have to keep the pressure on terrorism globally. This doesn't end with Afghanistan by any imagination. And I think the president has made that clear. I think we have made that clear. Terrorism is a global menace. It's a scourge. And it is absolutely vital that we continue, for instance, Saddam Hussein. I agree completely with this Administration's goal of a regime change in Iraq. ... Saddam Hussein is a renegade and outlaw who turned his back on the tough conditions of his surrender put in place by the United Nations in 1991. ... If Saddam Hussein is unwilling to bend to the international community's already existing order, then he will have invited enforcement...even if that enforcement is mostly at the hands of the United States, a right we retain even if the Security Council fails to act. ... The president always reserves the right to act unilaterally to protect the interests of our country. ... I do not regret my vote [in support of the Iraq war]. ... I think it was the right vote based on what Saddam Hussein had done, and I think it was the right thing to do to hold him accountable.  [My position] can't be clearer."

________________________ See Part Three

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And Kerry's lies keep piling up.

In old news that was slated to be recycled by CBS talkinghead Dan Rather this Sunday (leaving too little time to debunk it), the latest, and perhaps last Kerry prevarication of this campaign (concerning some quantity of HMX and RDX explosives missing at al-Qa Qaa weapons installation south of Baghdad) was printed by The New York Times ahead of schedule. "Our plan was to run the story on October 31, but it became clear that it wouldn't hold," said Jeff Fager, executive producer of the Sunday "60 Minutes" said.

Memo to CBS News President Andrew Heyward: Have you no sense of decency, sir, at long last?

And speaking of decency -- or the egregious lack thereof -- Kerry was quick to spin the "story," blaming our military forces in Iraq, and their commander in chief, with dereliction of duty. Of the latter, Kerry said: "Now we know that our country and our troops are less safe because this president failed to do the basics. This is one of the great blunders of Iraq, one of the great blunders of this administration. The incredible incompetence of this president
and his administration has put our troops at risk and put our country at greater risk than we ought to be. After being warned about the danger of major stockpiles of explosives in Iraq, this administration failed to guard those stockpiles -- where nearly 377 tons of highly explosive weapons were kept. The missing explosives could very likely be in the hands of terrorists and insurgents, who are actually attacking our forces now 80 times a day on average."

Unfortunately for Kerry, et al., it only took a few hours to debunk this feeble crack at an October surprise.

As The Patriot previously noted in October, 2002, our well-placed sources in the region, and intelligence sources with the NSA and NRO, estimated that the UN Security Council's foot-dragging provided a large window for Saddam to export some or all of his deadliest WMD materials and components. At that time, we reported Allied Forces would be unlikely to discover Iraq's WMD stores, noting, "Our sources estimate that Iraq has shipped some or all of its biological stockpiles and nuclear WMD components through Syria to southern Lebanon's heavily fortified Bekaa Valley." In December of 2002, our senior-level intelligence sources re-confirmed estimates that some of Iraq's biological and nuclear WMD material and components had, in fact, been moved into Syria and Iran. That movement continued until President Bush finally pulled the plug on the UN's ruse.

Indeed, Kerry and his Leftmedia minions have it all wrong -- again. The NRO released photos of heavy trucks loading materials from the bunker in question at al-Qa Qaa Explosive Storage Complex on 17 March 2003, three days prior to the U.S. invasion of Iraq
http://federalistpatriot.us/news/alqaqaa.asp (http://federalistpatriot.us/news/alqaqaa.asp).  And Kerry and company may have gotten additional facts all wrong. U.S. forces did find conventional weapons in the bunker in question but did not find what the UN's IAEA estimated to be three tons of HMX and RDX -- not 377 tons as claimed by Kerry.

Of course, 6,000 pounds of HMX and RDX is significant -- it only took one pound of this substance in the hands of Libyan agents to bring down PanAm 103 in 1988. Of course, we all know by now how accurate these weapons estimates have been -- and the UN was one step removed from the best intelligence available.

____________________________See Part Four

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President Bush responded to Kerry's allegations, "Now the Senator is making wild charges about missing explosives, when his top foreign-policy adviser admits, quote, 'We do not know the facts.' Think about that: The senator is denigrating the actions of our troops and commanders in the field without knowing the facts...."

Which brings us to the greatest of Kerry's lies this campaign season: "It is vital for us not to confuse the war, ever, with the warriors. That happened before."

Indeed, it did happen before -- Vietnam. Swift Boat Vet Robert Elder notes, "It is a fact that in the entire Vietnam War we did not lose one major battle.  We lost the war at home, and
at home John Kerry was the field general." (Kerry's extensive and well-documented record of anti-American activities over the past three decades are covered in "Aid and comfort to the enemy:

The Kerry record..." and "John Kerry: More aid and comfort..." at
http://FederalistPatriot.US/alexander/ (http://FederalistPatriot.US/alexander/)

Again, as President Bush noted, Kerry is "denigrating the actions of our troops and commanders in the field without knowing the facts...."

Kerry can't have it both ways. There is a direct correlation between his undermining of U.S. and Allied resolve in the war against terrorism -- specifically on the Iraqi warfront
with Jihadistan -- and American and Allied causalities on that front. Those forces, including countless Iraqis, are being injured and killed in larger numbers because of the political dissent Kerry and his ilk are fomenting.

A few weeks ago, John Edwards unwittingly provided the evidence for this very correlation: "We lost more troops in September than we lost in August; lost more in August than we lost in July; lost more in July than we lost in June."

As Kerry's use of the war for political fodder has increased in tenor, so too has the spirit of our Jihadi enemies. As noted recently by Mohammad Amin Bashar, a professor at Baghdad's Islamic University, "If the U.S. Army suffered numerous humiliating losses, Kerry would emerge as the superman of the American people." Abu Jalal, an Iraqi resistance leader, added, "American elections and Iraq are linked tightly together. We've got to work to change the election, and we've done so. With our strikes, we've dragged Bush into the mud."

The net effect can certainly be felt in greater attacks on American and Allied casualties. Those casualties equal more votes for John Kerry. This was, and remains, the unavoidable consequence of Kerry's reckless campaign rhetoric. The blood of those American Patriots (like the blood of his "brothers" in Vietnam, after he used that war as fodder for his 1972 congressional campaign), is on John Kerry's hands. To be sure, this is the harshest of all condemnations. But it is also the truth.

Both Kerry and Edwards know the consequences of their actions. Fact is, they think the lives of American military personnel on the warfront with Jihadistan are second-rate to their political ambitions. He should be held accountable.

As for Kerry's claims, "I've met with foreign leaders who can't go out and say this publicly. But, boy, they look at you and say: 'You've got to win this. You've got to beat this guy. We need a new policy.' Things like that."

Indeed, Saddam Hussein, Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi, Osama bin Laden, Kim Jong-Il, Mohammad Khatami, Moammar al-Ghadafi, Hu Jingtao, Jacques Chirac, Gerhard Schroeder and Kofi Annan are all rooting for John Kerry to beat George W. Bush on Tuesday. What does that
tell you, fellow Patriots?

A vote for John Kerry is a vote for a lie -- a fraud. It is a vote against liberty and freedom. But if the Democrat Party has been fully co-opted by Kerry's deceit, that assertion may be purely academic.

And a final note. Election seasons are always hard on The Patriot's editorial staff and contributors -- we are doing double time, covering both the news, policy and opinion outlets we always cover, plus all the election news. But one feature section, "The BIG Lie," has been easy to fill every week since John Kerry won the Democrat primaries last March.  The challenge with that section has been choosing which of Kerry's comments in any given
week constitute the BIGGEST lie!

A man that accuses another of the wrong doing that he has done.


An excellant article, brother, thank you.

You guys are so funny!

Start out with tells us why you vote for Kerry, don't just attack Bush, blah, blah, blah.... and then when I do a brief thing like was requested.  Page after page of anti-Kerry.  I never saw any of you say well here's why I support Bush.  Just attack and attack.

Biggest bunch of hypocrits on the net.  Being led down the path to slaughter, blissfully unaware.  Too bad the 3 stooges name is already taken.

Just my opinion.
Marv

Ok. Those were my reasons for not voting for Kerry. You want my reason for voting for Bush here they are.

1.) Bush supports the passage of a Federal Marriage
     Protection Amendment.

2.) Permanent Extension of the $1000.00 Per Child Tax Credit

3.) Educational Choice for Parents (Vouchers)

4.) Federal Funding for Faith-based Charitable Organizations

5.) Permanent Elimination of the Marriage Penalty Tax

6.) Permanent Elimination of the Death Tax

7.) Banning Partial Birth Abortions

8.) Prescription Drug Benefits for Medicare Recipients

9.) Allowing Younger Workers to Invest a Portion of their
     Social Security Tax in a Private Account

10.) Benefits for Veterans, especially those sick or injured in
      time of war

11.) Supports the Military in Supplies, Benefits and Pay Raises
 

Opposes:

1.) Unrestricted Abortion on Demand

2.) Public Financing of Abortions

3.) Federal Firearms Registration & Licensing of Gun Owners

4.) Adoption of Children by Homosexuals

5.) Placing US Troops Under UN Control

6.) Affirmative Action Programs that Provide Perferential
     Treatment

7.) Opposes Government Benefits for Illegal Aliens

In addition to all these he has a proven track record in his votes for the things that he states that he is for (doesn't flip flop).

There are more that I can't remember at this moment but these will do for now.

Ya see?  I knew there was a reason I was votin' for Bush!   ;D  Thanks brother for bringing those points to light.  :)

You're welcome. :)

I was one of those asking for an answer like this. Thank you!  :)

Sincereheart,

You're welcome.

I've struggled with who to support this election, neither Presidential candidate has much in the way of credentials as far as I am concerned.

What tips it for me is the guys in the Bush administration who were buddy buddy with Saddam a few years ago while he was using poison gas almost everyday, they accepted him using it on the Kurds as long as he used it against the Iranians too.  We even blocked UN resolutions against it.  

We sold him a lot of those weapons and tools that are now missing.

Leaving those same guys in power to run the War on Terror I just can't abide.  Sends a clear message to the Arabs that we are nothing but terrorists ourselves.  Makes the arguements against the US very believable.

Marv

Marv,

Alliances change. Much of the world was allied wih Russia during WWII for survival, but things did switch back and forth since then. That's reality.

France was allied with us in the first Gulf War but not the second. Anyone with any common sense can figure out why. They were selling arms to Iraq in violations of UN sanctions. There were no sanctions when the US sold weapons to Iraq. That doesn't necessarily make it right, but the area was a powder-keg and our interests were in danger, including Israel. By the way, George W. Bush didn't sell weapons to Iraq, nor did he violate any UN sanctions. However, the whole UN thing is a joke and a disgrace, completely corrupt.

If you want blunt reality, here it is:  you can sometimes give a wild dog food, and it will turn on you and bite you. If you keep trying to pet it on the head, you will draw back a bloody stub.

Tom

Marv,

By the way, we also helped and sold arms to Afghanistan at one time. That was when they were being invaded by Russia. Well, years later, they became the Taliban, the home of Bin Laden, and terrorist central for the world.

Tom

Bush absolutely can make abortion illegal.  With Justice Remquist critically ill and all of the other Supreme Court Justices over 60, the next president will put justices on the supreme court who will either overturn Roe Vs Wade or keep it law for the next 40 years or more.  Kerry has pledged to appoint only Pro-choice justices.

Whoever wins, the King is still on the throne. And He knows all that is going on and needs to be done. Hallelujah!

Amen!

As for changing alliances, the very people who were instrumental in keeping Saddam in power, in arming him, in protecting him are the people in the current administration.  His violations were significantly fewer when we invaded than when we funded and armed him.   He was using gas almost daily when Rumsfeld traveled to Iraq to help normalize relations.  We gave him Billions$, we even retrofitted helicopters for him because pilots were getting sick applying "insecticides."

Please explain to people in the Middle East why it was okay when Saddam killed them with poison gas during the Reagan years, but he had to be immediately removed years later when he hadn't attacked anyone for years.  A couple of Bible verses would go a long way.

Here we are now voting on leaving the very same bunch in power, and the rational is they are good Christians.  Please explain to the Kurds and the Iranians why these same good Christians had no real moral problem with Saddam gassing their families.  And I'm not talking after the Gulf War, before that.  Since we had already been at war with him, we had misgivings about his gas after the war.

By the way, reports say at least one of the companies that provided poison gas to Saddam was a US company, anyone got any info on that company being prosecuted?  I can't find it.

If there were no UN resoulutions, it was because the US used its power to block them.  Now we send people to lecture the UN on morals.  

You are correct in saying that George W. Bush didn't sell arms to Iraq, you have to go back to George H. W. Bush.  Or you could move across the hall to Cheney's office who was doing business with Iraq until the day he resigned to become Vice-President.

The white house today is full of guys who have been feeding the Middle East trouble for many years, the sooner they are out of there and down the road, the sooner we can start to really make some headway.  Every country in the Middle East has seen these guys before, backroom oil or weapon deals, funding radicals to bring down governments, proping up dirty dictators as long as they are "our" dirty dictator.

We haven't a moral leg to stand on.  The sooner we realize that and repent the better.  I believe the place to start is with a housecleaning in Washington.  I've said before that Kerry wouldn't be my first choice, probably not even second, but that choice was made already.  

I just can't look at my two kids and vote to leave this bunch in the White House.  I don't think Bush would be that bad with a different administration, but that isn't going to happen either.  I fundamentally believe that the current bunch in power significantly raises the chances of all out war in the very near future, not because we've been the moral leader of the world, we've been willing to accept any dirty dead as long as it helps us in the short term.

I know some will bring up abortion, but remember, the Justices that gave you Roe v Wade were 5 Republicans and 2 Democrats with 1 Republican and 1 Democrat against.  Roe v Wade isn't going away with 9 Republican Justices, you could just as well get going on the Constitutional Amendment now.   The majority opinion was based on a conservative interpretation.  

I saw what happened in my state, used to be lots of abortion bills every session as long as the legislature was pretty evenly divided, now Republican supermajority in both houses and a Republican governor and NOTHING, not a thing.  All that changed was instead of "Vote pro-life for the state legislature, it's a matter of life-and-death."  Now it's "Vote for Bush, we can't do anything."   They didn't even try, they just wanted the votes.

I know many of you disagree, that's your perogative.  If Bush wins I can alway tell myself Edwards will be President four years sooner.

I would just ask anyone that wants to support the current administration to read the Saddam Hussein Sourcebook at the National Security Archive.
http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/ (http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/)

It probably won't change your mind, but at least you can know what you support.

Marv

Oh, I almost forgot, I wonder how different history would have been if we hadn't invaded Russia at the end of WWI.  It certainly colored our relationship with them for many years.  They never did trust us after our quick switch.   If I remember correctly, the rational was that the Russian people would be so overjoyed at seeing liberators bringing them democracy they would throw down their weapons, throw roses and kiss our troops.

Too bad Bush was sleeping that day in history class.

Marv

Do you remember when Clinton was president? He vetoed every pro-life law that came up. Kerry will do the same. There is a law that will be coming up about funding crisis pregnancy centers, which provide housing, material help, and counseling to women in difficult pregnancies.  If it passes, Kerry will most likely veto it. Plus, he has publically pledged to appoint justices to the supreme court who will make sure Roe v Wade is not overturned.  He has said so.  He will make sure that any judge he appoints is so pro-abortion that, republican or democrat, he or she will never rule to overturn Roe V Wade.  
Kerry originally supported the war in Iraq, remember.  He voted to invade Iraq, and then he voted to cut off funding to our troops, denying them the equipment they needed to fight the war and protect themselves. The war he helped send them to.  He publically stated that there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq in the beginning of the war but now claims that Bush made that up.  He is a hypocrite and a liar. He claims that Bush alienated France and Germany when both those countries were bribed by Saddam Hussein with millions skimmed off the Money For Oil project and had already agreed to oppose any invastion of Iraq.  It's a big scandal now in the UN. Kerry ignores this and accuses Bush of alienating other countries when those other countries were against us already. Kerry is a liar and an opportunist.

Marv,

Vote your conscience, however you wish, and I'll vote mine.

I really have no desire to read any further twisted distortions. I'll be voting for George W. Bush, and I'll sleep fine after I vote.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Hi,

The National Security Archive is documents that have been obtained through the freedom of information act.  They aren't partisan, they have other things like how the Johnson administration lied to get us more involved in Vietnam.  How Ollie North knew about drug smuggling to fund Sandinistas etc.  

That's the beauty of the site.  It's not some spin room to distort things.

Marv

Well P. Bush is definitely closer to a respect for human life, and all that that means.  Kerry and his ilk are from the same cloth as the Clintons; look at how they treated the White House when they left, four years ago - they trashed the place, booby trapping computers, etc.  Not surprisingly.


Still, tho, as graphx above says:

   Whoever wins, the King is still on the throne. And He knows all that is going on and needs to be done. Hallelujah!


They've found, buried eight feet deep in the volcanic ash of MT. Vesuvius, in Pompey, and Herculaneum, from 79 A.D., the hollowed out molds left by corpses trying to escape - a well-to-do lady's skeleton, still with the gold rings and bracelets on her wrists and finger bones.

And where the beach use to be, in the Bay of Naples, the skeleton of a Roman soldier, still with hilt from his sword and scabbard, his carpenter's tools, and skeleton of his horse.  Forensics aged the man at 42 - with sword wound still in a leg femur bone, his right arm, the sword arm, twice the bone size of his lesser used left arm, with fused lower spine vertabrae - they surmized he is constant pain from that - the life of a soldier in Rome, shortly after Christ.

But they also discovered in city streets, on the walls, preserved by the volcanic ash, billboards advertising for an election - they were in the middle of an election when the volcano hit, and buried them all!!

So we needn't take our politics too seriously to heart, I don't think.  It may be important but, I think for a Christian, there may be more expedient things to be thinking about.  

  :-\