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 Are you familiar with the Bible enough, to know what the Bible says happened, 'before' the creation of this earth ?

A little bit of a tricky question, because our understanding of something "happening" is entirely related to Time. Its a point in history, or a day to look forward to, in the confines of past, present and future. God has never been restrained by Time, and since He is the same always and everlasting (beyond Time), He was still God, full and complete, before the account of Genesis began. Maybe He was what was "happening"?

Jer 4:23   I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

Here's the words 'without form' and 'void' again, the 'tohuw va bohuw' covered in Genesis 1:2.  So God is bringing into remembrance that time of Genesis 1:2, to them, and to you, if you have 'eyes to see'. That there was 'no light' means that Satan's rebellion had caused a state of utter darkness, spiritually. Consider this verse in Jer.13:16: "Give glory to the LORD your God, before He cause darkness, and before your feet stumble upon the dark mountains, and, while ye look for light, He turn it into the shadow of death, and make it gross darkness." You will find in Rev.6:8 and Hebrews 2:14, that another name for Satan, the devil, is 'Death', so this phrase 'the shadow of death' is referring to Satan, so again, remember that the earth's state of 'desolation' in that first earth age was due to Satan's mutiny against God.

Jer 4:24   I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.

The Lord really shook the earth to end that first earth age.  Might this 'trembling' have caused the tilt of the earth's axis that caused that instant arctic freeze, and the 90 mile error between the geographic and magnetic pole?  'All the hills moved lightly' means the whole earth was affected, not just partly. Since God's Word is 'Perfect', it accounts for all natural phenomena that happened in the past history of this old earth, and for what is to come.

Jer 4:25    I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.

This verse is letting us know that man, and all creation that existed during that first earth age, was gone from the earth, even all the birds. No Noah's ark, no animals, absolutely nothing, so this was an event that took place long before the days of Noah.

Jer 4:26  I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by His fierce anger.

All the cities of that first earth age were destroyed, and the 'fruitful place' was a 'wilderness' (desert). Again, this is not the flood of Noah's time, especially since the previous verse tells us that 'there was no man', i.e., not even Noah's ark. Possibly the reason why it is difficult for most people to understand the existence of cities and people living on the earth, in spiritual bodies and not flesh, during the first earth age, is due to tradition, and the fact that many people can't think in the spiritual.  Many traditions teach in a way that heaven in God's eternity is not upon this earth.

Remember that the prophets saw, in a vision. What God wanted them to see.

Go in Peace with God.
DW

Actually, I was trying to bring out the history of the fall of Satan...then Lucifer, in heaven.

Hm!

Lost me for a minute there, but I'm coming around...

"First earth age"? I've never heard of that. Do you say that it was populated by angelic (or, spiritual) hosts, or by the Spirit of God Himself (and the spirit of God brooded over the face of the deep)?

I've always been told that Lucifer, angels, etc. were created after Genesis 1:1, just in time to praise His works. Somewhere between Light and Luminaries. (Now wait a minute...alphabetically, "Lucifer" IS between them, lol!)

I've been told that there couldn't have been heavenly rebellion before the seven days of creation, because God says that He saw all that He had made, and called it very good.

And yet, it was not until after Adam sinned that Creation fell, and everybody seems to know that Lucifer had rebelled before then. Perhaps, then, God could have called His works good, though there was war in heaven?

I would love to hear more on this subject...I'm afraid I didn't quite understand Dreamweaver's post, but I'm going to read through Jeremiah and get some background info. I honestly have never ever heard this before!  :-[

Where is that passage that talks about Satan walking about the hills/earth where Gold and gems were on the surface rather than under the earth?   I vaguely remember reading something like that in the OT.   Also read about a gap theory between In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. <--- and the next verse.  Implying there could have been many years between the two, but of course this is just theory and speculation.   But interesting non-the-less.  Deffinately on my list of questions to ask once we get to heaven.

Grace and Peace!

 Hey 2nd Timothy here are the scriptures you were wondering about.

 Isaiah 14:12 How you are fallen from heaven O Lucifer son of the morning star, son of the dawn?
How did you come to be cut to the ground conqueror of nations? You thought to yourself I will scale the heavens I will raise my throne above God's stars. (angels).
I will sit on the Mount of Assembly far away in the north. I will rise past the tops of the clouds I will make myself like the Most High.

Instead you are brought down to Sh'ol, to the uttermost depths of the pit. Those who see you will stare at you reflecting on what has become of you Is this man who shook the earth who made kingdoms tremble who made the world a desert who destroyed its cities who would not set his priosners free?

I have to leave for work so i dont have time right now to type this one out but it also talks about the fall of satan in Ezekiel chapter 28.

Thanks sulpherdolhin.....I don't believe thats the one I was thinking about though.   I too am in the middle of work week, but I will try to find it later this weekend if I can.

Grace and Peace!

Hey 2nd Timothy i found what you're looking for i believe let me know if this is the scripture you are thinking about.

Ezekiel 28:13-16 You were the seal of perfection Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
You were in Eden the garden of God Every precious stone was your covering: The sardius, topaz and diamond, Beryl, onyx and jasper, Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold. The wormanship of your timbrels and pipes was prepared for you on the day you were created. You were anointed chrub who covers I established you You were on the holy mountain of God You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones. You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created Till iniquity was found in you.
By the abundance of your trading You became filled with violence within and you sinned Therefore I cast you as a profane thing out of the mountain of God and I destroyed you O covering cherub from the midst of the fiery stones.

as i was studying this last night i was surprised to find certain stones that are mentioned in Genesis are some of the same stones that were bound upon satan the cherub angel in Ezekiel.


also in the Complete Jewish Bible in Ezekiel chapter 28:14-16

verse 14 You were A KERUV, protecting a large region.

verse 16 I have destroyed you , prtecting KERUV from among the stones of fire.

I dont have time to look up the word KERUV but found it an interesting word...

Michael

In my own reading, I've always thought the jewels of Lucifer were suggestive of his great beauty and brilliance...like the rainbow around the throne of God is "Like to an emerald in brilliance"...

I found a few keruv-related websites, here are some quotes...one site says that "Keruv means outreach" (they are describing their online interfaith program), whether this is the actual term or just a general, modern term, I am not sure. It may be similar to the Greek "Angelas (Angel)" meaning "messenger".
In one site it listed in English (more or less, lol!) a passage from Ezekiel, in which the winged, four-faced angels around the throne were Keruv (plural Keruvim). The "v" is often pronounced "b" (as in, the month of Av is Ab) so are these the cherubs and cherubim? When I looked in a lexicon for the meaning of cherub, it only told me that it is an "imaginary creature". *sigh*

Link to a Jewish article on Keruv (strange, strange!):
http://www.neveh.org/winston/parsha57/trumah.html

This site describes cherubim as baby-like angels... ??? One very terrible baby!.....
2Ch 3:10  In the most holy house he made two Keruvim of image work; and they overlaid them with gold.
2Ch 3:11  The wings of the Keruvim were twenty cubits long: the wing of the one [Keruv] was five cubits, reaching to the wall of the house; and the other wing was [likewise] five cubits, reaching to the wing of the other Keruv.
2Ch 3:12  The wing of the other Keruv was five cubits, reaching to the wall of the house; and the other wing was five cubits [also], joining to the wing of the other Keruv.
2Ch 3:13  The wings of these Keruvim spread themselves forth twenty cubits: and they stood on their feet, and their faces were toward the house. (excerpt from http://www.geocities.com/johncw5000/hebrew2chronicles.html )

A passage of Ezekiel, HNV (Hebrew Names Version):
http://www.mail-archive.com/hnv@lists.sni.net/msg01162.html

I guess that was it Michael....starting at verse 11.

Eze 28:11  Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Eze 28:12  Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
Eze 28:13  Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Eze 28:14  Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15  Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
Eze 28:16  By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:17  Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

Sounds like what I remember.  Also places Lucifer in Eden aside from when He tempted Eve.

There is some debate over a preadamite world starting at Gen 1:1 and 1:2.

I think a key verse to support this notion is...

Gen 1:27  So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Gen 1:28  And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Replenish?  As in refill?  LOL I don't know but it certainly sounds like the world might have had man (maybe cavemen?)before Gen 1:2 and destroyed by water before Noahs flood.  Not wanting to debate this idea, because I really don't know, but it is interesting to ponder.

Grace and Peace!

                    The Duties He Performed

       What did Lucifer do in those glorious days when the universe enjoyed the tranquility of perfection? we read You were the anointed cherub who covers and I placed you there. You were on the holy mountain of God you walked in the midst of the stones of fire verse 14.

 What did Ezekiel mean by the phrase the anointed cherub? Perhaps it is a general reference to service in the kingdom of God. Barnhouse in The Invisible War suggests that the phrase refers to a priestly function associated with the cherubim who even now lead the worship of heaven. The wings of a cherub you might recall were outstretched on top of the ark of the covenant. Confiriming this interpretation is the expression "his sanctuaries" apparently a reference to worship verse 18.
 
  If this interpertation is correct it means that Lucifer evidentaly directed and orchestrated the worship of other angels. He received the worship of the angels beneath him and passed it on to God above him. None of the adoration was to be diverted along the way. God alone deserved all that was accorded Him.

 We cannot be certain where Lucifer had his abode. Barnhouse believes that his sphere was this earth. After all one of Lucifer's desires was to ascend into heaven. Though he had access to the throne of God earth was his habitat. That was where he was assigned to carry out his priestly duties.
 Most other scholars believe that Lucifer's primary residence was near the throne of God in heaven. Ezekiel says he was "cast to the ground verse 17) perhaps intending us to understand that he was cast on to the earth after he sinned. Where on earth or in heaven it seems clear that Lucifer was a cheerleader for the Almighty.

The Serpent of Paradise The Incredible Story of How Satan's Rebellion serves God's Purposes

Written by Erwin W. Lutzer

I believe this to be true if you go to Ephesians 2:2 In which you  once walked according to the course of this world according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind and were by nature children of wrath just as the others.
 
 Satan was given authority over the AIR or the Atomosphere of this earth this was his abode at the time after and before his fall.
Praise and Worship resounds through the universe and like Lutzer said Satan took those praises to the 3rd realm of heaven or the threshing floor of the 3rd realm of heaven.

Satan fell when God decided to create Man (Adam) that was when satan became prideful verse (13) in Isaiah chapter 14
and Ezekiel 28 verse 17.

Satan then defiled his sanctuaries in verse 18 this is when God destroyed satan O covering cherub From the midst of the fiery stones. Ezekiel 28: verse 16

Satan knew that when Adam was created that Adam would take the place of satan and adam (mankind will begin the praises towards God).

This is when satan possessed a walking snake and used this walking snake to speak through it as a satanic instrument to decieve Eve. Genesis chapter 3.

Perhaps Satan knew that Eve was a weaker vesel spiritually and came to her because satan knew that she would be easier to deceive than adam?

Michael

Thank you, Michael!

Welcome WillowBirch ;D

Lucifer became jealous of God, baiting God by insisting that if He is Love, why would he prevent His angels from taking the Throne.  That God was hypocritical, unloving.

Bascially, Lucifer's argument was that God was a hypocrite, and therefore unloving.

We know this because of the nail prints in Jesus' hands which, as we understand it, will alwyas be there, long after all evidence of this world has passed away.

The reason the nail prints will always be there, is to prohibit, once and for all, another Lucifer from ever happening again.

And the nail prints prove that God really is indeed "love" - because they demonstrate the Supreme Sacrifice, by the creature's own Creator, for the creature.

This catches Lucifer, because if He is accusing God of not being loving, then he's at least admitting to God's supremecy.  If he's admitting to God's supremecy - that is, that God really is God who created everything including Lucifer, then he has to admit that what God did, really is love.

And, if he admits that, then he's admitting that God really ius love.

And so, Lucifer loses the bet, is cast down, and becomes Satan.

And so, 'what happened before Genesis' is basically, a very unfriendly wager, or bet - with life and death as the stakes.

   :-\

 Hummm i dont see where you got this info from?

Satan became Jealous of Adam because Adam instead of satan will be taking the place of worshipping God. Adam was the wedge between Satan and God was the fact satan became Jealous and then satan tried to overthrow God to change His Kingdom around.

There is no wager or bet with life and death everything that God does is Good to the benefit of mankind for salvation.

The nail prints on HIs hands and feet is not to prevent another lucifer. Satan was defeated in Genesis 3:15 thats a future prophecy before the crucifixion of the Messiah defeating the wiles of satans plan.

The nail prints on His hands and feet are revealing His love for us.

Michael

Thank you, Michael.  It is all very, very interesting.

I actually was answering a slightyl different question from yours - yours is probably a more technical one, with just 'what' happened.

Mine was probably more 'why' did it happen.

It is gleaned time, years of reading scripture, and just 'connecting the dots', as they say, by what seems to be simply implied, by scripture, according to our situation here, on earth.

The main reason I say a bet, or a wager, is because of the
specified eternity of Jesus' nail prints.

As far as I can remember, that is the only 'hold-over' from our world, to the this new, heavenly one - the only, actual, physical, material 'evidence' of what happened, way back then.

Therefore, such a fact, begs the question:  Why?

You answered it, B/c of His love for us.

But is that the total picture?  

Well, yes, in a way.  But there's still the Enemy to account for - also a Creature of God.

Job 1 reminds us of Satan's intent, towards man, and by implication then, towards God.  Satan insults Job, and God, to God's face.

That insult is what God must reconcile - but He has to do it 'righteously' - not vengefully, or bitterly, or resentfully - lest Satan WIN THE BATTLE(b/c it would prove Satan right - that God IS unloving).

But God wins, by instead doing it 'through' love, not in spite of it.

As you say, the nail wounds then demonstrate that love.

But perhaps it is just a duplicity, then.  B/c also can Satan never, ever again accuse God.

And that's what the implied 'wager' was all about.  Satan made a challenge, b/c he never counted on God being able to love SO MUCH, that he'd literally offer Himself, His Son, on the altar.

Satan thought he'd won the bet - with Judas Iscariot.

He didn't know that Jesus righteous blood would absolve us - w/o bitterness, w/o resentment - just a mellow lamb to the slaughter.

So there's an implied 'bet' or wager, because of the eternal nail prints.  The provide the evidence that the wager was lost.

I say all of this, because of the major political structures alive and in place in just he last two hundred years.

Capitalism may have its vices - mainly greed.

But the alternative - communism, is based simply on Job 1.  It comes before God, and accuses anyone who is productive - in that case it was Job.  And chapter one there literally lists just how productive Job was.

Communism literally hates that.  It hates you.  It hates me.  For simply being able to "produce' things.  Communism is a jealous schoolmaster, and its twin, socialism, is alive an well globally- the "accuser of the brethren".

So, that's why the nail prints are so much an "relief" to all of those, and us, who suffer under worldly governments, for simply being "productive".

The nail prints laugh at the jealousy.  They laugh at the accusations.

Because no longer will anyone ever again be able to accuse someone for being simply productive - in their garden, in a family, on the farm, etc.

And beleive, there are right now, always, plenty of folk around who fashion their lives around what their neighbor is or is not doing.  It's all a very unhappy reality.

But we have the nail prints.

 Oh ok hummm i never really thought about it in your view before. I like it!

I apologize if i seemed cranky on my last post. I have been in a funky mood lately.

Michael

Who cares what happened before Creation? It has no bearing on my life! (I'm joking) ;D