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Joining the military isn’t like a normal job; you can’t just quit anytime you want. You have to sign a contract agreeing to enlist for so many years. When you sign up for the military you owe them a certain number of years of service; however many you signed the contract for. You can’t just back out, since a written promise or contract was made. During an enlistment, you have to obey your superiors, or else you’ll be punished.

Jesus said not to owe anybody anything, but once you enlist, you owe them so many years of service. Jesus said not to make promises, but in order to enlist you have to make a promise to serve for a certain number of years. Paul said: “do not become slaves of men”, but joining requires you to become a slave. No, you won’t have to pick cotton, or be whipped for disobeying. But you do have to do what you’re told, and if you disobey you will be punished.

I am thankful for the benefits that I reap because there is a U.S. military, but to join is wrong.

(http://www.sirinet.net/~blkidps/a4.gif)       (http://www.rr-bb.com/images/smilies/fish2.gif)

 ROFL!
And, of course, you also sign an 'contract' for cell phone service or a loan and even when you write a check (what is a check except a promissory note?)!

And I've never had a job where I wasn't told what to do by someone. Teachers sign contracts - as far as I know they're for one-year at a time.

You are wrong, as I enlisted in the Marine Corp. in 1976. I learned alot, that you would not learn on the outside. In the OT some where, it is allowed to protect your country. Thats what I did, protect my country.
I am happy I served. If They ever need me again, I would go. Course I would be in the handicapped division.

 ??? How is what you learned in the military relevant to this debate?


I wasn’t saying it’s wrong to protect your country. I was saying it’s wrong to make promises. But if the government says you have to make a promise in order to protect your country, then it’s wrong to make that promise.

In the Old Testament you were aloud to make promises. But in the New Testament Jesus said:
“you have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord.’ But I say to you, do not swear at all…But let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ For whatever is more than these is from the evil one.” – (Matt 5:33-37)
Jesus wasn’t talking about curse words; he was talking about promises. And by saying that you can make a promise if it’s for this reason or that, you make Jesus' words to no effect.

Do you know the oath/promise you take when you swear in?? What is the last word of the oath??
As it is right now America is at war. Durning a war, you need to defend the country you live in.
Or are you one of these (arm chair generals,) that believes that you should have all the rights and freedoms, with out serving your country. Freedom is not free.

edited to add; JitC asked,
How is what you learned in the military relevant to this debate?

What I learned is that, it is the responcibilty, of everyone, civilians, and military to protect your country. Not just the armed services, everyone.

Also if you work, you have a make promise. You are expected to show up to work at a certian time.

"Jesus said not to owe anybody anything,"

",.......but to love one another,,,,,,," It is the only debt never paid up for the Godly in Christ.

Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit inspired Paul to tell us:

Romans 13:8.  "Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law."

Jesus Christ through inspired Paul also said:

Romans 13:1.  "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
 2.  Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
 3.  For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
 4.  For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
 5.  Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
 6.  For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
 7.  Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.'


In the Spirit of His love,
ollie

Yes he is (http://www.rr-bb.com/images/smilies/fish2.gif) and (http://www.addis-welt.de/smilie/smilie/troll/Troll38.gif) like (http://am.net/troll/picture/avatars/smilie/crazy.gif).

"Also if you work, you have a make promise. You are expected to show up to work at a certian time."

One also promises to give eight hours a day of work for eight hours of agreed upon pay. Many sluggards out there break this promise expecting of course the promised pay.

1 Corinthians 10:31.  "Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
 32.  Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
 33.  Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved."

Colossians 3:17.  "And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him."


In the Spirit of His love,
ollie

"So help me God."

Are you saying that it's ok to make promises to people if God is mentioned? Jesus said not to make any promises to people.


Ok. But if, in order to protect your country in a certain way, there is a stipulation that requires you to disobey Jesus, then it's wrong.


Now your grabbing at straws. Making a promise, and what is expected of you are two different things. Of course with a job you are expected to come to work. But most employers don't require you to make an oath.

Don't confuse making an oath or promise with "yes" or "no". Sure you say "Yes, I'll come to work tomorrow." But you don't have to promise that you'll do it.

"Jesus said not to make any promises to people."

Where specifically is that written?

ollie

Consider Cornelius, A centurion of the Italian band. A military man in the Roman army. Do you think he may have made promises to Rome as a centurion? He was one of the first gentiles to come to Christ and receive the gift of the holy Spirit. Nothing is said that he gave up His military career.
See Acts 10.

They have modified the oath of enlistment for those who object to 'swearing' so that now you don't 'swear' -  
you affirm. So if that's your only objection, it's invalid.  :)

But if, in order to protect your country in a certain way, there is a stipulation that requires you to disobey Jesus, then it's wrong.
As it would be with any job!  ;)

But you don't have to promise that you'll do it.
When you get cell phone service - you have to 'promise' to keep that service for one or two years or you'll be 'punished' - have to pay a penalty. And the difference is???

Matt 5:33-37 - "Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord.' But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God's throne; nor by the earth, for it is His footstool; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. Nor shall you swear by your head, because you cannot make one hair white or black. But let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No,' 'No.' For whatever is more than these is from the evil one."

Paul said: “Were you called while a slave? Do not be concerned about it; but if you can be made free, rather use it.” – (1 Cor 7:21) I don’t know anything about Cornelius’ military obligation, but if he made a promise to serve for so many years, then he was effectively a slave. Re-enlisting wouldn’t be right, as that would be another promise. But becoming a Christian didn’t mean he had to quit, unless he had that opportunity.

::) Do you honestly think calling the same thing by something else is a loophole that allows you to go against what Jesus taught? There are no loopholes.


I don’t know of any difference that’s relevant to this debate. It’s a promise. What’s your point?

I get the feeling you think you can't live without making promises. Of course you can.

Do you honestly think calling the same thing by something else is a loophole that allows you to go against what Jesus taught? There are no loopholes.

affirm: 1: to testify or declare by affirmation as distinguished from swearing an oath

A loophole?  ??? You have a choice to swear or simply declare. I take it you're a SDA/JW?

Thankfully, there are those who defend your right to say that their job defending that right is wrong.  ::)

I get the feeling you think you can't live without making promises. Of course you can.

Giving your word is a 'promise' in my mind. And if say "Yes", I mean yes and if I say "No", I mean no. That includes my wedding 'vows'!

People have to swear many things in order to join the military. There isn't just that one oath said verbally. There are many oaths; written and verbal. When I joined the military I spent hours going through paperwork reading and signing. Some of the stuff that I signed weren't promises. They were just acknowledgements that I read something, or understood something. But other papers that I signed actually legally bound me, making it a promise. I realized years afterwards that making promises is wrong, and decided not to re-enlist, since re-enlisting would require more promises.


No.


Is what you mean by "your word" simply "yes" and "no"? Or do you mean when somebody says "you have my word"?

I don’t know of any difference that’s relevant to this debate. It’s a promise. What’s your point?

My point is that you seem to think giving your word is bad! Yet, Christ gave His Word and I trust that!  :)

Joining the military isn’t like a normal job; you can’t just quit anytime you want.

So in your mind, anything you do that you can just up and quit makes you a better Christian?  ::) That means that you should never marry or have children or anything that requires a committement. And most especially you shouldn't follow Christ  ??? - that's the biggest and most important committement of all.....!!

Instead of concentrating on why YOU think being military is bad - while you enjoy the benefits provided for you - how about starting a ministry to the military and their families? They make so many sacrifices - starting with the constant moving and trying to adapt to a new environment, that a ministry geared to those families might be a better compromise for you!  :)

Don’t try and twist what I’m saying for your own gain. I’m not saying giving your word is wrong. I’m saying that for us to make promises/oaths to people is bad. How can you think it’s good if Jesus said not to do it?


Again, your trying to twist what I’m saying.

It’s odd, in this thread I’ve heard arguments about cell phones, eight hour a day jobs, and other irrelevant things. I make a logical argument based on the bible and I get insulted and called names (implicitly). The focus has been on me instead of the argument presented. I haven’t heard anything that touches on what Jesus said. I wonder if maybe the reason His words are being avoided is because they aren’t really followed. They seem to be like a thorn in people’s sides.

JitC,

You really should spend your time with something you know something about.

I live in a nation that was UNDER GOD, and maybe it will be again some day.

I served under a flag that was dedicated UNDER GOD.

I've been married for over 30 years, and our vows were before GOD and in GOD. My wife and I obeyed our vows before GOD, and GOD has richly blessed us and our family. Our children were raised in the LORD, and the LORD has blessed them. My children are raising children, and they are being raised in the LORD. I strongly believe that they will also live for the LORD and be blessed by the LORD.

I served as a police officer for 25 years, and I dedicated myself to GOD in service. I prayed every day that GOD would give me the strength, courage, and wisdom to serve in a way that would be most pleasing to HIM. YES, I took an oath to serve unto death, and I meant it. I believe firmly that GOD was with me every time I faced life and death. I serve GOD first. I served in law enforcement IN GOD, and I firmly believe that GOD worked through me many times and in many ways for HIS GLORY, not mine. I testified in court thousands of times under oath. I never dreamed of telling a lie and DID TELL THE TRUTH, NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH, SO HELP ME GOD! GOD did help me for 25 years, and I considered myself to be a tool used by GOD.

One should never dedicate anything to GOD unless they mean it sincerely. That would obviously include marriage.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Well blackeyedpeas, your post avoided the subject altogether. If you're going to post in this thread, why not mention why you think it's ok not to listen to Jesus?

Jesus said not to make promises to people at all. But I have yet to read a post in this thread explaining why the poster thinks it's ok to make promises to people. I keep reading posts that basicly say it's ok to make promises to people, but I haven't heard anything touching on what Jesus said. In fact, it seems that what He said is being completely avoided.

Did Jesus say not to make promises?
Is it ok to make promises?

2Ti 2:23  But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.
2Ti 2:24  And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
2Ti 2:25  In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
2Ti 2:26  And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

2nd Timothy, I take it you think my questions are foolish. I see people who say they have faith in Jesus do things that Jesus clearly said not to do. Should I not question this?

SHEESH

 ;D  DITTO! Sister Reba.




 ;D

What words of encouragment do you have for us JitC?

Grace and Peace!

*sigh* One last time....

"34 But I tell you, Do not swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God's throne; 35 or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. 36 And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. 37 Simply let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No,' 'No'; anything beyond this comes from the evil one."

It doesn't say you can't give your word or make a committeement.  ::)

Again, your trying to twist what I’m saying.
No, I'm trying to get you to understand the absurdity of what you've said.  :)

In fact, it seems that what He said is being completely avoided.
And the folks here are trying to help you with that.  :)

It’s odd, in this thread I’ve heard arguments about cell phones, eight hour a day jobs, and other irrelevant things.
What was, I thought, simple; apparently is difficult for you to grasp. You make 'promises' everyday whether you realize it or not. Some are long-term (cell phone service), some are day-by-day (job). But you don't have to embellish that with swearing by something. You just simply declare 'Yes' or 'No' that you will do it.

As I said:
Instead of concentrating on why YOU think being military is bad - while you enjoy the benefits provided for you - how about starting a ministry to the military and their families? They make so many sacrifices - starting with the constant moving and trying to adapt to a new environment, that a ministry geared to those families might be a better compromise for you!  :)

...committeement...



    ???


   

JitC,

Maybe you are genuinely confused, but I suspect that trolling is the real culprit here.

Just in case you are genuinely confused, I'll tell you what Matthew 5:33-37 is talking about. It is about perjury and violation of oaths and vows. An oath or vow should be taken in all reverence, as to the LORD. An oath or a vow should never be taken lightly or in frivolous conversation. Perjury, in Biblical terms, is bearing false witness or false swearing. If the LORD's name is used in an oath or vow, it would be using the LORD's name in vain to NOT mean it in all reverence, as TO THE LORD. To do otherwise would be profane and using the LORD's name in vain.

Hint:  Perjury is against Biblical teaching and man's law. Using the LORD's NAME in vain and profane language is against Biblical teaching. It was against man's law in America, and it still is in many places.

There you go - incredibly simple.

Tom

 :P I've been doing more and more of that lately!  :-X

No. But signing a contract that binds you is more than a yes. It’s a written oath. And Jesus said: “…let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ For whatever is more than these is from the evil one.” - (Matt 5:37) Can you honestly say that a binding contract isn’t more than your word? If it’s not more than your word, then nothing is.


I don’t make promises, not since I realized the truth. But even if I did make promises, how would that justify others making promises? Does somehow what I do make it ok for others to do what Jesus said not to? I try to do what’s right, but even if I didn’t care at all right and wrong wouldn’t be different. So trying to bring up things you think I do is avoidance of the actual topic of debate.


If you consider a cell phone necessary there are ways to have cell phone service without making a binding oath. Maybe you’ll spend a bit more, but if it means you’re obeying Jesus it’s worth it.


Aside from the military, I don’t remember ever making a promise to go to work. I said that I would, but I didn’t do more than that.

No it’s not. Jesus said:
“…it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord.’ But I say to you, do not swear at all…”
Jesus was specifically pointing out that He wasn’t talking about violation of oaths, but that you shouldn’t make them at all, except for oaths to God. When you sign a binding contract, you are making the oath to people, not to God. And Jesus said not to do that.

Please don't feed the trolls. ;D

 ;D

He is:


AND, his posts are:


 ;D

And also;
(http://pages.prodigy.net/indianahawkeye/newpage13/18.gif)  (http://pages.prodigy.net/rogerlori1/emoticons/yawn1.gif)

When your arguement is full of holes, just resort to personal insults. It takes the focus off the topic.

Instead of concentrating on why YOU think being military is bad - while you enjoy the benefits provided for you - how about starting a ministry to the military and their families? They make so many sacrifices - starting with the constant moving and trying to adapt to a new environment, that a ministry geared to those families might be a better compromise for you!  

(http://www.activistsandiego.org/wwwboard/images/smiles/-outtahere.gif)

No your arguments are full of holes. You are also ignoring, the answers given. When you do that, you become a troll.

Fun!  I want an attempt to try and answer (some more).

  Ok, I don't have any biblical references or anything, but I believe I have thought of an answer.
 
  From what I gather, you say (well Jesus said), that it is wrong to make promises (beyond, "Yes, I can", or "No, I can't", and even then it isn't for sure), and that signing say a contract (in this case a military one) is wrong becuase it binds you and makes you a slave of man (please anyone correct me if I have followed this wrongly).

  From the way I see it, 1)  You are already a slave, in fact your contract has a footprint on it from birth, and a number.  You, as a citizen are obligated to this country, if a real draft were to be called (assuming your in the right age/health requirements) you would be obligated to fight, or you could run and are no longer welcome here.  Just as well you are a slave to all the rules of the U.S. and its economy; you obey traffic lights (I assume mostly), you buy gas regularly, you eat foods pre-approved for you.  You also have to pay taxes regularly.  
 
    2)   A promise is only worth as much as the person that gave it, even a written one.  If, in your mind, you decide to break the contract, then by definition you did not keep your promise.  So then you are either a liar, or are not bound by the moral obligation of promises.  You can then either accept or deny the consequences of your actions (which also have consequences).

   So the fact stands, that if you believe that a promise or a contract does bind you to someone.  Then you must also believe that your word is your bond, so you have let your own moral code do the binding.  You are a willing slave (with tons of benefits), and unless you go and hide in the woods with no human interaction, grow your own food, build your own home, and live a lawless existence.  Well then its the life of servitude for you.

  Personally, I say anyone who can be kept to their word should be admired, it is a trait we should cultivate.  I applaud blackeyedpeas for keeping promises like that (especially police service, I hear it can be rough).  As for what Jesus said on the subject, it seems that he had it right.  Don't make promises to serve someone as their lapdog, that is wrong (but not what the military does). And do your best to do what you say you will do.  The only reason I can see that Jesus would say to not swear to anything, is probably because you can never know what promises you can keep.  Probably Jesus's way of keeping people from becoming liars.

Finally someone who’s interested in debate, rather than mockery and name-calling.


That’s about right. I might add that Jesus gave no exceptions on the subject of promises. However, on other subjects He did give exceptions. Divorce for example; He gave the exception that it’s ok to divorce your spouse if he/she was sexually immoral. But on the subject of promises, there were no exceptions, even though we might like there to be.


Contracts bind people. I’m no more bound by my birth certificate than somebody is without one. I have to obey the same laws as somebody without one. If there were a draft, and I got drafted, then I would become a slave. But since that’s not currently the case, I’m free. Now, for people who are slaves, it would seem logical that they shouldn’t volunteer to be further enslaved.


Possibly in a moral sense. But that aside, I’m no more bound to this country than somebody who’s not a citizen. Which is to say, I’m not bound at all, except to obey the law.
 

The church in Corinth was obligated to obey the laws of the land too. If that constitutes slavery, then virtually everybody is a slave. But Paul said to the Corinthian church: “…do not become slaves of men.” - (1 Cor 7:23) It seems that Paul was telling that to people who he didn’t consider to be slaves, even though there were laws they had to obey.


Exactly; when you give your word your own moral code does the binding. You are not bound by people, but your own morals. So you are not a slave to people, instead you’re a slave to your own morals.
 

“…but not what the military does.”? Jesus didn’t give exceptions. He simply said not to. He didn’t say it’s ok if you think it’s best. He said not to “at all”.


But you can’t assume that Jesus meant something different than what He said based solely on your own assumptions on why He said it. That seems to be what a lot of people do when they want to do something contrary to the bible. For example; people who divorce and want to remarry. Even though Jesus said it’s adultery, they assume He meant it in a way that makes it ok for them to remarry. He didn’t say it’s ok to remarry another person after a divorce, but those who want to anyway come up with “reasons” why it’s not against what Jesus said. The same with making promises, and hundreds of other things. It’s convenient to do that, but it’s not right.

(http://pages.prodigy.net/rogerlori1/emoticons/CRYING.GIF)

  Your willingness to obey the laws of the land is a form of slavery, you accept a rule above yourself that is comprised of men.  All organizations, groups, governments are forms of this selective slavery.  Sure you can make decisions, even voice your opinion, but at the end of the day you still bend to the law of man.  The birth certificate is your contract to the United States, you were born here, so you fall under its protections, and its rules.  Even internationally you are still in the U.S. jurisdiction, if you commit a crime you will be arrested, and more likely than not, sent to the U.S. for prosecution.  So unless you defect, that birth certificate is a direct bond to who holds main sway over your fate in the eyes of the law.
   
   As for what I meant about your moral code binding you, that is merely an observation on your choice.  Since you choose to put validity in contracts, and promises (meaning that you believe that they bind you).  Then it says you have really already made your choice, you choose to be bound.  You can just as easily pack up and leave, leave everything, and in doing so you would prove you have denied the validity of the bindings of society.  But since you haven't done this, then I can come to the conclusion that you accept the way things are.

  Finally, I do not mean to try to contradict or re-word something Jesus said.   But to take all meanings directly seems to go against the lesson that is trying to be taught.  All I am saying is that from the quote it sounds as if Jesus is trying to warn people.  Not only about wrongness of being bound like a slave (and I mean a true slave, one with no say or rights), but he is also trying to warn others.  A promise to do good cannot be a wrong, but breaking that promise would be, it would make you into a liar.  So he gives an alternative, instead of giving a promise you may not be able keep, why not just give your word (which is measured by your character) to do what you can.  That way you will not put yourself in the position to be a potential liar.

Paul said to obey the law, but he also said not to volunteer for slavery. So it seems that, according to the bible, slavery and obeying the law are two distinctly different things. Applying the term “slavery” to obeying the law is only word play. It’s not biblical though.

However, I do understand what you are saying. In some sense nobody is totally free, since there are rules for everybody. And nobody is totally enslaved, because everybody has some sort of freedom, even if it's an extremely small amount. So we could call the lack of total freedom by the term "slavery". (And doing such a thing would result in a lot of confusion on exactly what is meant.) That would mean that Paul meant we shouldn't further enslave ourselves. But, being that nobody has total freedom, the term slavery should be reserved for those who have a logically distinct lack of freedom.


There is nowhere that you could live where the law doesn’t apply. So if it were actually slavery, it would be an unavoidable slavery. And, based on what Paul said, we still shouldn’t volunteer for further enslavement.


I don’t understand how it’s a contract. I’m not obligated to do anything because of it.


True. I don’t see how its protections are relevant though. But, as far as rules go, no matter where I was born I would be under the law of the land.


And move where, outer space? :) There’s nowhere that I could move to where the only laws I’d have to obey are God’s. No matter where I live, I have to obey the laws of man. They’re unavoidable.


I accept the laws because Paul said that I should, and I have no legal way to avoid them. Like I said, the law is everwhere that I could move to.


I don’t see how it goes against the lesson. You summed up what you consider the lesson;
“The only reason I can see that Jesus would say to not swear to anything, is probably because you can never know what promises you can keep.  Probably Jesus's way of keeping people from becoming liars.”
If that is the lesson, it’s probable that it’s really only part of the lesson. There must be more to the lesson than that, since Jesus didn’t give exceptions to the rule, like He did with other things.


Accomplishing something good by sinning is still wrong.


True. I’m not advocating breaking promises. I’m advocating not making them in the first place.


So what He said was a suggestion, not a command? What Jesus said regarding promises seems to be a clear command to me. If it’s not, how could you distinguish between His suggestions and His commands? Maybe telling us not to divorce was only a suggestion too. Maybe His lesson was just to let us know to take marriage seriously. We could unravel everything Jesus said by making assumptions like that. Sadly that’s actually what many people do when they want to do something Jesus was against.

  Sorry, I merely refer to the birth certificate as a contract, because by being born here they take a foot print (signature?), and assign you a social sercurity number.  I am using it in the context of a contract, because it is a sure sign that you are bound to the U.S.  In fact you need your certificate to prove you are bound to the U.S. in order to get things like driver's license's and such.  You don't have to think of it as a contract, but just for arguments sake I am using it that way.

  Ok, to clarify on the whole Jesus issue (is it a command or a suggestion).  I am saying that the way you presented the quote makes me think of it as a suggestion, or better yet a guide line.  But like you said, where do you draw the line?  Where do you decide if something is implicitly commanded, or just implied that it might be a good idea.  To this I just say, context, some things can be unanimously decided on that "quote x" is indeed a command.  Others, however, are much harder to discern, so they may require some discussion into the true meaning. I mean if I stood on a hill and said something like "Always travel up hill towards the light, never down into darkness, for that is the path to damnation". Now of course I mean this as a metaphor, yet if someone printed it, it might sound like I mean that no one should every walk down hill. My argument is that, in the quote you gave, it seems to sound like Jesus is implying a greater meaning rather than commanding it.  The ambiguity of the quote seems to hint that there is a further meaning.  What it is though I can only guess at.

There most certainly is a greater meaning behind it than what is said. And it’s my opinion that even if we were to analyze the quote and come up with what we think is the greater meaning, we would probably still be missing parts of the meaning. To fully understand God, even on a single topic, is impossible. So rather than have the need to understand fully everything that He said in order to do what’s right, all that’s needed is to just do what He said. He didn’t explain why we should do each thing that He said, or what positive effects there would be by doing those things, He just said to do them. We might analyze the things He said, even to great lengths, but simple obedience must come first, because even with much analyzing of what He said we still won’t have the whole picture.

swear:
Strong's Number: 3660
Transliterated: omnuo
Phonetic: om-noo'-o

Text:  a prolonged form of a primary but obsolete omo, for which another prolonged form (omoo {om-o'-o}) is used in certain tenses; to swear, i.e. take (or declare on) oath: --swear.

oath:
Strong's Number: 3727
Transliterated: horkos
Phonetic: hor'-kos

Text:  from herkos (a fence; perhaps akin to 3725); a limit, i.e. (sacred) restraint (specifically, an oath): --oath.

Strong's Number: 3725
Transliterated: horion
Phonetic: hor'-ee-on

Text:  neuter of a derivative of an apparently primary horos (a bound or limit); a boundary-line, i.e. (by implication) a frontier (region): --border, coast.

How is it forbidden by Jesus Christ to promise anybody anything in those  verses in light of what an oath and swearing really means?

Promise is not mentioned in the verse you gave.

promise:
Strong's Number: 1860
Transliterated: epaggelia
Phonetic: ep-ang-el-ee'-ah

Text:  from 1861; an announcement (for information, assent or pledge; especially a divine assurance of good): -- message, promise.


ollie

Leave it to ollie to come up with the easiest way to explain something. None of the rest of us could explain, so easy. :-X

You can call a contract by whatever name you want; a promise; an oath; a binding agreement...whatever. It really doesn't matter what you call it, it's still more than a yes or no.

"But let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No,' 'No.' For whatever is more than these is from the evil one." - (Matt 5:37)

I wonder how many of those little boxes have been 'check' the ones the soft ware uses?

Everyone I can check Reba. ;D

JitC,

You won't be able to get married or do quite a few other things until you understand this portion of Scripture. It simply DOES NOT mean what you think it does, NOT EVEN CLOSE.

Love In Christ,
Tom

I am calling it by what the Holy Spirit has revealed. You are calling it by man's interpretaion. The Holy Spirit has not used promise or contract here. It is man that thinks of oath and swear with these terms applied to them.

God's ways are not man's. God has to speak to us in terms and symbols to which we can relate.

The word of God says no swearing and to perform your oaths  unto the Lord with out forswearing, (perjury, lying),

If you affirm anything let your communication be,Yea, Yea. If you deny anything let your communication be Nay, Nay without swearing or making it an oath. It should be done with out lying and as unto the Lord.

 Matthew 5:33.  "Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:
 34.  But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
 35.  Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
 36.  Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
 37.  But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil."

In the Spirit of His Love,
ollie
 

"Trinity" isn't in the Bible either. But, like I said, it doesn't matter which word is used.

Can you honestly say that a contract is not more than a yes or no?

That's absurd. You don't need a contract to get married. Sure the government offers contracts if you want one, and without one they won't recognize the marriage. They're recognizing sodomite marriages, but that doesn't mean they are actually married. Whether or not somebody has a government contract doesn't determine who's married. If it did, then homosexuals with contracts would be married. (You don't actually think they're married do you?) A lot of people think that without the government contract you are not married. That's just silly. The government didn't invent marriage. God did. And it's not against the law to be married without a marriage license, so I don't need to here about Paul saying we should obey the law. You can be married, and not have a contract, while still not breaking the law. I think the idea that the government determines who's married is akin to if they were to give contracts that said you were forgiven of your sins. It wouldn't matter who has a contract or who doesn't.

Wrong, marriage is a contract between a husband and wife, involving vows (oaths, promises,) before the Lord.

Edited to add;
to add another statement

Correct ollie, *sigh*

JitC,

Your porch light is off. In fact, you might not have a porch light.

Real marriage involves vows before God. That's the only marriage that I recognize as being real. Many seek to defile marriage and others break their vows before God.

If you lack the fortitude or the reverence to God, don't make a vow, oath, or anything else that would be AS TO THE LORD. So, you need to remain single until you understand this portion of Scripture. Marriage vows are AS TO THE LORD. So are oaths.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Where does the bible say that? The ceremony that often goes along with a marriage is man made. The obligation that one has to his/her spouse is God given. No contract needs to be made with people.

"...will you have this woman as your wife, to live together in the estate of matrimony? Will you love her, honor her, comfort her, and keep her in sickness and in health; forsaking all others, be true to her as long as you both shall live?"

You can simply say "I do." You don't need to promise anything. Your word doesn't need to be anything more than your word.

I think people try to make things more complicated than they are. Jesus said don't swear, so we shouldn't.

The primary legal basis for marriage within the Holy Scriptures shows that it represented a covenant. It is not difficult to comprehend what a covenant is if one will pay close attention to the meaning of the word. In modern language a "covenant" is simply a "contract." In regard to the marriage covenant (or "contract"), it is usually an agreement made between a man and a woman to live with one another in close, intimate circumstances which includes the experience of sexual relations between the couple. The agreement itself is usually a public confirmation of a covenant/contract established between a particular man and woman to live in holy matrimony. In biblical times the parents of the bride and groom usually made the contract between themselves. The contract may have had nothing to do with the emotional desires of the couple being married. Hardly ever were emotional considerations of the young couple the prime factors for their marriage.

The main parties to most marriage covenants in ancient times were the parents of the bride and groom. This was the case throughout the whole of the biblical period, including that of the New Testament itself (I Corinthians7:38,39) Therefore both he that giveth his virgin in marriage doth well: and he that giveth her not doth better. A woman is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth: but if her husband die, she is at liberty. Let her marry to whom she will: only in the Lord In any event, it should be recognized by biblical students (and those wishing to abide by the principles of the scriptural revelation) that marriage in biblical times was more a legal agreement between the parents of a young man and woman than an emotional and independent covenant made by the young couple themselves. It is important to recognize this point if one is to appreciate what marriage is as it pertains to the scriptural revelation.

The fundamental principle that governed all marriages in biblical times was that they were all covenants -- they were all acknowledged as being contracts Prov.2:17; Mal.2:14. If moderns understood this concept (and if they wish to abide by the principles of those who wrote the Bible),then almost all problems (both theological and secular) which have arisen in peoples' minds over what constitutes a marriage would disappear. Common sense and scriptural understanding would return to the issue and all people could have a proper appraisal of what embodies the essential features governing the marriage relationship. For emphasis' sake (and in this crucial matter emphasis is needed), let me say again that a biblical marriage represented a contract. It was a contract/covenant between a woman and a man or between two families that enabled the couple being married to become (in the eyes of the covenant-makers and society) "one flesh" Gen.2:24; Matt.19:5,6.

As an example of this contract/covenant principle (and where it is illustrated in its best form) is the Old Covenant that God made with ancient Israel at Mount Sinai. The Old Covenant was nothing more than a marriage contract. God was reckoned as a male and the nation of Israelas a female -- with Israel becoming the married bride of Yahweh at Mount Sinai. "I am married unto you," said the most high God Jer.3:14. "I sware unto thee, and entered into a covenant with thee [Israel], and thou becomest mine [i.e. my wife]" Ezek.16:8. See also a technical analogy to this marriage of Jesus to Israel in Hosea 2:16.

Exodus 24:3,4,7,8 "And Moses came and told the people all the words of Yahweh, and all the judgements: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words which Yahweh hath said will we do. And Moses wrote all the words of Yahweh, and rose up early in the morning and builded and altar. . . And he took the book of the covenant [the marriage covenant], and read it in the audience of the people: and they said, All that Yahweh hath said will we do, and be obedient. And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant[the marriage covenant], which Yahweh hath made with you concerning al all these words."

Go in peace.
DW

 ::) Does such childish behavior really benefit this forum? There are few posts by you, to me that haven't included some sort of childish remark or sarcasm.

I've learned that people without the ability to think for themselves are abundant on the internet, and the possibility of engaging in any type of intelligent discussion with people such as these is virtually nil. Rather than continuing down the somewhat naive path of believing that these people are simply “misinformed” or “uneducated”, I have reached the conclusion that attempting to continuously counter their stupidity has been, and would continue to be a complete waste of effort. So directly after making this post I will delete my username.

No, it isn't is it? God says to communicate with a yes or no in reference to what we are discussing. He does not say contract or promise, but swear and oath are used by the Spirit and the original greek means something other than contract or promise as we know it in our world of today.


Man's law says it is a binding document between two or more parties. Man's ways are not God's ways! Let your affirmation be yes and your non affirmation be no.

Many have skulls of lead surrounding their brain don't they?

Christ says, "let them that have ears to hear, hear and eyes to see, see."

May you know the greater love of Him that offered it for all who would come.
ollie

pssst Ollie, I think jitc left the board.

Grace and Peace!

You are not forced to read any of the posts.

I know that. I quoted his post that informed of such.
Thanks anyway.

ollie

The fact of the matter is that right now we aren't Defending anything. We're the aggressors in the world situation. We are Hitler, Germany. We, to those people, are he Nais, trying to establish control without looking like it on public paper and media.

If you join the military, what are you supporting?

Christ said turnt eh other cheek, to not make war. We're certainly making war.

The only time we're to fight, is when God gives the order.

Bush is not only on a high horse, he's not only Totalitarian, he's part of a Satanic group.

(http://www.rr-bb.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif)

Welcome back JitC  ???

2nd Timothy,

Brother, you just might be right.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Expose or JitC?,

We've already lost a major battle on our own soil. It was called 9-11. We are taking the battle to the terrorists on their soil, hoping we can prevent more battles on our soil from terrorists who have Internationally proclaimed war on America.

I give thanks that you aren't responsible for protecting America, and I also give thanks that you aren't in the Armed Forces of the US. Finally, I give thanks to the brave men and women who are defending us in our outstanding Military.

They are preserving our freedoms, including your freedom to run your mouth. If they fail, it is quite possible that your mouth will be zipped shut, much like the mouth of Michael Moore. In the meantime, you will be enjoying freedoms that our outstanding Military has fought and died for, including the right to worship God. Our young men and women in the Armed Services don't like you much, and they know that you are enjoying the benefit of their sweat and blood. It is sufficient to know that hosts of Christians appreciate what they are doing and pray for them every day. Other than this, most realize they are fighting for their children, future children, family, and others who enjoy freedom and our way of life.

I would simply say, NO THANKS JITC.

Tom

     “The fact of the matter” that you mentioned is not a fact by any means – it is only your opinion – THAT is a fact.  Many people hold views contrary to yours (I am one), but this does not mean you views are incorrect (they are based on your opinion after all)… just your words.  Since you also used the words “right now” – I feel the need to comment further… Right now – we are “Defending” something – at the very least, the soldiers/sailors/marines in the OIF/OEF theaters are defending EACHOTHER – something worthy of our greatest respect… “No greater love hath a man…”
     Your second comment, that we are “the aggressors,” is not an uncommon point of view - particularly in the international community.  I have had many opportunities to speak with coalition soldiers from several different countries (particularly British soldiers) – though there are not NEARLY as many foreign soldiers in the theater as there are Americans.  However, many of them agree with you on your second point, your message is certainly valid.
     The third comment, likening the United States to Nazi Germany, is sensationalism at best… and unnecessarily offensive as well.  “If Truth offends a person, then they are simply offended by the Truth…” – but your comment was unfair (destructive by nature) and not in line with the truth.  “Sensationalism is the enemy of Truth, my friends.”
     Your question, about a person’s intentions when joining the military – is a good question, that certainly deserves attention.  If any person is thinking about an enlistment or accepting a commission in the military, this is one of the questions they should ask themselves.  But, I think you meant to imply something else with this comment (forgive my assumption, but it seems fair considering the context) – and you should consider this… every single person in the military joins for different reasons.  To imply that to simply “join” is to support something worthy of mourning (as war certainly is) is comparable to saying that paying taxes is supporting monetary abuses by politicians.  They may be relatable, but most people don’t pay taxes thinking, “I am supporting my congressman’s drug habit!”  In a similar manner, I doubt many people join the military because they want to be involved in something they perceive as “evil.”  If they did, however, that would certainly be a sin.
     Your next comment about what Christ said was certainly offensive and completely false.  You should take care, when you are quoting the words of God… not to ADD TO THEM.
     Your point about when war is justified is an interesting point… but I challenge you to support your comment with Scripture.  
     Your final comment was, once again, a good example of sensationalism.  If you truly want to get your point across, you should try to argue your point with a little more charity.
     All in all, your opinions are valid and worthy of respect my brother… but I would humbly suggest that you give some time for serious thought and prayer before you communicate your feelings – if your intention is to help people see your point of view that is.

May the Peace of Christ be with you.

Jaime