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Part 2

A record of the same gospel is found in Matthew 28:19, 20. This is after the cross where Christ gives the disciples their commission.
"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:"
Notice there is no mention of the cross work of Christ as being the totally satisfying sacrifice for sin. In the book of Acts we find the Apostle Peter carrying out the commission that Christ commanded to be preached. In this passage notice that the cross is not preached as good news as we preach it today. Rather, Peter is preaching the cross as BAD NEWS to the nation of Isreal.
Acts 2:22, "Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by Him in the midst of you, as yourselves also know: Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it."
Does it sound like Peter is preaching the cross as something that was good? No, his purpose was to convince the nation of Israel that they needed to repent of their sin and be baptized. (Compare this passage to I Corinthians 15:1-4 where Paul gives the cross as the gospel or GOOD NEWS.) Now notice the result of Peter's preaching in Acts 2:37.
"Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?"
The people that Peter preached this message to were "pricked in their heart" that they had crucified and slain the Lord. We do not present the cross today as something that was not good. We are to rejoice in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ because we now know that without it we would be eternally lost. Was Peter out of the will of God because he preached the cross as bad news? No, Peter was an Apostle of God and was fulfilling the commission that Christ gave to him and the other eleven Apostles.
Notice how the hearers of this message in Acts 2:37 responded. They said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?" These folks want to be saved! Does Peter answer their question with; just believe in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ for justification as a free gift (as we should say in response to this same question)? No, rather he answers with,
Acts 2:38, "Then Peter said unto them, Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."
Peter is preaching a works oriented gospel that required water baptism for salvation. He mentions nothing of the Blood of Christ as the means of salvation. This message of salvation by grace without works is not revealed until it was later revealed to the Apostle Paul. This is why Peter didn't preach grace. It was still a mystery.
A logical question is, "What about the thief on the cross, wasn't he saved without works?" Let's look at the thief's situation. The thief was obviously a lawbreaker and was receiving just punishment for his crimes for in Luke 23:41 the thief states "And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds". We also know that the thief was saved because Jesus said to the thief in Luke 23:43, "Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise." Knowing that the thief at one time was lost and at a later time was saved we should be curious as to when the thief was saved. Let's look at a couple of verses that will help determine this. In Matthew 27:38 we read, "Then were there two thieves crucified with Him, one on the right hand, and another on the left." Verses 39 - 43 tell how those that passed by reviled Christ and the chief priests mocked Him with the scribes and elders. Then in verse 44 we read, "The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth." Obviously, at this point both thieves were lost. In Mark 15:32 we read, "Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with Him reviled Him." From reading these verses we can see that initially both thieves were lost. Knowing these facts we can safely determine that the thief was saved while he was on the cross. So how was the thief saved while on the cross if the gospel states that repentance and water baptism were required for the remission of sins? To repent means to have a change of heart. From reading Luke 23:41 we know that the thief had repented of his sins. So, the thief did fulfill the first part of the requirement. However, the gospel at that time stated that one must repent and be baptized for the remission of sins. So, why was the thief saved regardless of not being water baptized? Let's look at a passage that may help explain this. Mark 16:15, 16 "And He said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." Notice that Christ says, "he that believeth not shall be damned". Now notice that He didn't say "he that believeth not and is baptized not shall be damned". This verse tells us that the primary issue with God is the belief of an individual, even at a time when works were required for salvation. God knows our hearts and he knows the sincerity of our faith. Our obedience to God's Word will reflect the sincerity of a believer's inward faith. The outward expression of faith will respond as God instructs which He does through His Word. The definition of faith is to take God at His Word (Romans 10:17). At the time of the cross God instructed believers to be water baptized and true faith would respond by being obedient unto water baptism. It was not the water baptism that did the saving. However, God had instructed to be water baptized so if one wasn't obedient to God's Word by being water baptized then their inward faith was vain. So why was the thief spared? We must take into account the situation of the thief that before he hung on the cross he was a lost person. He repented while on the cross. God knew the inward faith of the thief. God knew whether or not the thief would be obedient unto water baptism if he was free from captivity. The thief was hanging from a cross and of course would not be released to partake in water baptism. He did not have the opportunity to show his faith by being obedient to the commandment of water baptism. God is most assuredly a just God and would not punish anyone for not being obedient due to physical impossibilities.
So what is the outward expression of faith required for believers in this age of grace. Today God instructs us not to be water baptized as expression of our inward faith. Today God only says "believe" (Romans 3:22). This is the message of grace apart from works and was not revealed until the Apostle Paul. We now know by the scriptures what the Blood of Christ accomplished. We now have the complete revelation of God about the cross because that message of grace was revealed to the Apostle Paul. Colossians 1:25 says,
"Whereof I (Paul) am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me (Paul) for you, to fulfill the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to His saints:"
The fact that the dispensation of grace was given first to the Apostle Paul is stated by the scriptures in Ephesians 3:1 - 5.
"For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward. How that by revelation He made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto His holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit."
Notice in these passages that the dispensation of the grace of God was given to Paul. This message was a mystery until the resurrected Jesus Christ from Heaven revealed it to the Apostle Paul. Thus, Paul can say by the inspiration of God…
Galatians 1:11, "But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ."
Romans 3:21, "BUT NOW (in the age of grace) the righteousness of God without the law is manifested."
I Corinthians 11:1, "Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ." (Also reference I Corinthians 4:16 and Philippians 3:17).
Ephesians 2:8, 9, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."
Romans 5:9, "being NOW JUSTIFIED BY HIS BLOOD"
Remember that our salvation is by grace through faith without works. This message could only be preached knowing what the cross work of Christ accomplished. It is this very message of salvation by grace without works that wasn't revealed until it was revealed until the Apostle Paul.
Other facts of interest:
Paul could say in I Corinthians 1:17 "Christ sent me not to baptize". Could the 12 Apostles say this and still be in the will of God?
Paul rebukes Peter for preaching another gospel to the Galatians. (Galatians 2:11, 14)
The day of Pentecost was still being observed after the Cross (Acts 2:1). The day of Pentecost was required under the law (Leviticus 23:15, 16; Deut. 16:9). Pentecost is the Greek name for Passover. Paul rebukes the Galatians for observing "days, and months, and times, and years." (Gal. 4:9, 10)

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During Old Testament times, before this present dispensation of grace began, Gentiles were always blessed through the exaltation of Israel. As we shall see, Old Testament passages such as Gen.26:4; Gen.28:14; Is.2:1-4; Is.27:13; Micah 4:1-3; Zech.8:20-23; Zech.14:16, made it clear that Gentiles would never be able to approach God without first blessing the nation of Israel.

Such is not the case today, though, because the apostle Paul states that Gentiles are now saved through the fall of Israel, rather than through her exaltation, in Romans. 11:11-13 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office

1 Cor. 15:1-4
Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Not once did the Old Testament scriptures ever foresee that Uncircumcised Gentiles would some day be saved through Israel's fall. Nor did they prophesy that Christ would die for the sins of Uncircumcised Gentiles, as Paul explains in the above passage. One may search the scriptures from Genesis through the book of John, and never find any mention of these doctrines, because they are identified with the "mystery" that was revealed to Paul alone.

 

Or if you wish, a short version.

The dispensation of grace began when the church came into existence or when the church began which is in Acts 2. The church is the Body of Christ where all are on an equal standing especially Jew and Gentile! Until Acts 10 the church could not have existed in its completed form because only Jews and Samaritans were in the Body. The Gentile was not addmitted to the Body until Acts 10 and so although the church "began" in Acts 2 it was not "complete" until Acts 10. The Jew and Gentiles are now on an equal footing, and so it did not begin proper until Acts 10.

PART 1

DreamWEaver posted:
"The dispensation of grace began when the church came into existence or when the church began which is in Acts 2. The church is the Body of Christ where all are on an equal standing especially Jew and Gentile! Until Acts 10 the church could not have existed in its completed form because only Jews and Samaritans were in the Body. The Gentile was not addmitted to the Body until Acts 10 and so although the church "began" in Acts 2 it was not "complete" until Acts 10. The Jew and Gentiles are now on an equal footing, and so it did not begin proper until Acts 10."

BigD responds

Taken from: http://www.starlightresearch.com/ActsProblems.html

PROBLEM NO. 9 --THAT THE DAY OF PENTECOST IS THE BEGINNING OF THE CHURCH, THE BODY OF CHRIST. THIS INCLUDES THE DISPENSATION OF THE GRACE OF GOD

This is the doctrine that gives Acts 2 brethren their name - Acts 2 Dispensationalists. This is the most popular form of Dispensationalism.

Their main argument for starting the Church in Acts 2 is the baptism of the Holy Spirit mentioned in Acts 2:4 and in Acts 11:15-16. They say that this 'baptism' places believers into the Body of Christ, thereby equating this with the 'baptism' of 1 Cor. 12:13 (Dispensationalism Today by C.C. Ryrie, pages 136,137; Moody Press; 1965).

They also point to the word 'church' in Acts 2:47 of the King James Bible. Of course, they believe that Peter preached Christianity on this day and that he presented the death, burial and resurrection of Christ for salvation; in other words, Peter preached the Gospel of the grace of God.


THE TRUTH

The only way and the Scriptural way to solve the many problems that Acts 2 causes is to move over from Acts 2 to Acts 9 (just7 chapters), and begin the Church and this Dispensation of grace with the salvation of Saul/Paul. In making this simple little move, one's whole outlook and perspective changes in how to view and understand the Word of God, especially in the book of Acts. Instead of starting things on a very controversial Jewish festival day and dream up human interpretations to defend it, it is best to start things when God did something different. And certainly the salvation of Saul was different from anything that had happened before it or after it. It was unique (1 Tim. 1:15-16).

In making this move, the doctrines of the Bible are enhanced rather than lost or given up. Truth about the Church becomes clearer. This move allows the Holy Spirit to work in us according to His teaching ministry to believers. And most of all, our RISEN Lord and Head, Christ Jesus, is honored and glorified when we preach Him according to His heavenly ministry for this Age of grace.

Charles F. Baker, in his 'A Dispensational Theology,' pages 483-486, gives 12 Scriptural reasons why the Church, the Body of Christ, could not have begun on the Day of Pentecost. Instead of quoting from his theology, we will look at the more obvious reasons taken from Acts 2 and 3. The Day of Pentecost covers two whole chapters - Acts 2 and 3.

1. The Day of Pentecost was one of the important feast days in Israel's calendar (Lev. 15:22). This religious feast day belonged to Israel alone. It was one of the three great annual festivals, the other two being the Passover and Tabernacles.

Now I realize that believers today in this Age of grace can learn a lot from the Old Testament. This is one thing that the Apostle Paul wrote about to the assembly at Rome (Romans 15:4 - "For whatsoever things were written aforetime [before] were written for our learning ... " 'learning' refers to 'teaching,' indicating that the Old Testament is important for the Christian. But please notice that this verse DOES NOT SAY that the Old Testament Scriptures are for our obedience.. To 'obey' the Old Testament Scriptures is impossible in the light of the cross of Christ (Col. 2:14).

Therefore, to bring this major Jewish festival of the Old Testament into Christianity and make it a major doctrine of Christianity, causes believers to become inconsistent in their doctrine and walk before the Lord. Bringing Pentecost into Christianity mixes Judaism with Christianity. It is-this part of the Word of God that causes all the problems that the Acts 2 position teaches. Acts 2 brethren NEED to remove the Church from Acts 2 and place it in Acts 9 where it belongs. Then they will be able to rightly divide the Word of truth consistently.

2. The baptism of the Holy Spirit (Acts 11:16) was administered by the Lord Jesus Christ just as John the Baptist said He would do, as recorded in Matt. 3:11, "...He [Jesus] shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit..." This baptizing ministry of our Lord was done on the Day of Pentecost. This baptism was NOT performed by the Holy Spirit like we read about in 1 Cor. 12:13, "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one Body..." Acts 2 Dispensationalists cannot understand that the two baptisms mentioned here are DIFFERENT BAPTISMS performed by two different members of the Godhead. The verse in 1 Cor. 12:13 does not relate to the Day of Pentecost. They confuse the ministry of Christ with the ministry of the Holy Spirit. Their arguments for putting 1 Cor. 12:13 into Acts 2 are very weak.

3. Peter's two messages in Acts 2 and 3 are related to the DAY OF THE LORD (Acts 2:17-21; 3:19-23). This particular period of time is part of the LAST DAYS of Israel rather than to the first days of the Church, the Body of Christ. The Day of the Lord covers the Tribulation Period and the Millennium, not this Dispensation of the grace of God

By Robert C. Brock

Continued in PART 2

God Bless.
Live Well,  Laugh Often,  Love the Lord!

PART 2:

4. The gospel message that Peter used to close his two messages was the Gospel of the Kingdom, the only gospel Peter knew, as seen in Acts 2:38-39 especially (also Acts 3:19). They were to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins and then the Holy Spirit would be given to those who believed. Repentance was NATIONAL as well as INDIVIDUAL, and had to take place FIRST before any of God's blessings would come (Joel 2:12-17).

How did Peter proclaim the death and resurrection of Christ?

First of all, the Apostle Peter accused the Nation of murdering their Messiah. He told them twice that they killed Him (Acts 2:23), and they killed the Prince of life (Acts 3:15).

Second, in relation to the resurrection, Peter said that God raised Him from the dead in order to sit on David's throne (Acts 2:30). This is one of the reasons for the resurrection of Christ.

The Apostle Paul did not teach about the death and resurrection of Christ like Peter did.

The Gospel of the Kingdom is NOT God's message for this Age of grace. Acts 2 brethren know this but do not know what to do with it. They do not like what Peter taught about being baptized in water MR the forgiveness of sins. They realize that this is not the same thing that Paul wrote in Eph. 1:7 and in Col. 1:14, that forgiveness of sins is NOW by the blood of Christ.

One of America's greatest Greek scholars, A.T. Robertson, a very strong Baptist teacher, strongly disliked Acts 2:38. He taught that the 'for' in the phrase 'be baptized ... FOR the remission of sins' means 'because of.' The Greek preposition for 'for' is EIS. He used Matt. 12:41 as the proof, where it is stated 'they repented at [EIS] the preaching of Jonah.' He also said in his book 'A Grammar of the-Greek New Testament' on page 592 in relation to Acts 2:38, that the right translation of this verse depended on the interpreter instead of the grammarian (translator). In a list of meanings for EIS, he left out 'for,' a legitimate meaning that the Greek lexicons recognize. The meaning of 'because of' is not recognized by the lexicons for EIS.

What can be said about this? The answer is that if the meaning of 'because of' was the intended meaning in Acts 2:38 and in Matt. 12:41, then the Holy Spirit would have guided Luke and Matthew to use the Greek preposition DIA in the accusative case, for DIA in the accusative case means 'because of.' But it is EIS that is used instead, and so we must accept the meaning of 'for' as making more sense than the other meanings of EIS. Besides, the meaning of 'for' is consistent with its use in describing the work of John the Baptist (Mark 1:4; Luke 3:3; Matt. 26:28) and our Lord's teaching.

Another problem that Acts 2 brethren have is that they believe in only one gospel. Hence, they have to change the obvious meaning of Acts 2:38 so that it fits into the Gospel of the grace of God. And they do this by attacking the Greek preposition EIS.

5. All the Jewish believers on the Day of Pentecost had everything in common (Acts 2:44-45). They shared everything they had with one another so that no one lacked anything.

Had not the Lord told His disciples earlier to sell all that they had and to follow Him? (Luke 12:1,29-34). Matthew's record of this teaching is found in the Sermon on the Mount (Matt. 6:31-34). On another occasion the Lord had said the same thing to a rich young ruler (Mark 10:21). Could it have been possible that this rich young ruler was born again on the Day of Pentecost and shared all his possessions with the Jewish believers? The Lord had sown the seed in his heart, and after thinking about it for some time, he could have accepted Peter's invitation of Acts 2:38-39 and been saved. Many thousands were born again back then (at least 5,000 men - Acts 2:41; 4:4), and it would have taken a lot of earthly possessions in order to meet everyone's needs.

Is this condition of 'sharing' going on now? Absolutely not! As a matter of fact, it didn't last too long in the book of Acts, just a few years, maybe 10-20 at the most. Paul wrote in Rom. 15:26 about the POOR SAINTS that were in Jerusalem. He and sanefrom the Gentile churches in Greece wanted to help them out, which they did. Something had happened in the book of Acts that led to their being poor - probably the unbelief of the Jewish Nation, and the beginning of God's heavenly purpose through the Apostle of the Gentiles, the Apostle Paul (Rom. 11:13).

6. In Acts 3, the Apostle Peter said that their Messiah would come back if they would repent and be converted (Acts 3:19-21).Peter did not offer the earthly Kingdom of God to the Church. He offered it to the Nation of Israel! This was an honest, genuineoffer of the Kingdom to Israel. He went to Moses and to all the prophets from Samuel onwards, and even back to Abraham, showing them that this was God's plan for them IF they really believed it. But we know that they did not believe it.

The Body of Christ is not a part of Old Testament prophecy or history. The Body of Christ was kept secret in God, hidden in Him until revealed to the Apostle Paul (Ran. 16:25; 1 Cor. 2:7; Eph. 3:9).

So then, here are six very good reasons why the Body of Christ did not begin on the Day of Pentecost. There is just no reason to put it in Acts 2 under those circumstances. And believe me, it becomes a wonderful blessing when you do get it OUT of Acts2 and place it in Acts 9 where it belongs.

This Dispensation of the grace of God was given to the Apostle Paul, as is so clearly stated in Eph. 3:2, "If [Seeing that] you have heard of the Dispensation of the grace of God which is given to me for you." Peter did not write this! John did not write this! Paul wrote it, but Christendom does not want to accept it. If Christendom would sincerely accept the truth of this verse, it would start a world-wide revival with millions of people saved. But until it does, confusion will abound among believers because of unbelief.
Robert C. Brock

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

Amen DreamWeaver  :) The Church began in Acts 2! Gods wonderfull Grace is now extended to both Jew and Gentile.
Peter also seen the Pauline Revelation... as did the rest of Gods holy apostles and prophets by the spirit. God showed Peter in a vision that the Gentiles were also accepted with him, and that there is no respect of persons with him...

Bless his Holy Name

AJ:
You posted:
"Amen DreamWeaver   The Church began in Acts 2! Gods wonderfull Grace is now extended to both Jew and Gentile.
Peter also seen the Pauline Revelation... as did the rest of Gods holy apostles and prophets by the spirit. God showed Peter in a vision that the Gentiles were also accepted with him, and that there is no respect of persons with him..."

BigD responds:
FYI the Body of Christ, the Chruch for this dispensation of grace is Jew and Gentile on equal footing and without distinction.

Now if you will just SHOW me, prior to the raising up of Saul/Paul, that Jew and Gentile were on equal footing and without distinction , THEN I WILL BELIEVE YOU AND GW.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

No problem brother...right from the mouth of the grace giver himself.

Act 1:6  When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
Act 1:7  And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
Act 1:8  But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.


Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.= Jew and Gentile


Also

Mat 28:18  And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Mat 28:19  Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20  Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.


Go ye therefore, and teach all nations=Jew and Gentile


This was long before the calling of Paul....Peter needed a fresh revelation concerning this, but this was Gods plan from the begining.

God bless you brother

BigD responds:
You have not SHOWN ME what I requested. Therefore, it is you that has the problem.

During the time preiod of Acts 1:6-8 and Matthew 28:18-20 there was still a "middle wall of partition" between the Jew and Gentile. During that time period for a Gentile to serve the true and living God, that Gentile had to become a Jew (proselyte) and place themselves under the Law.

The "middle wall of partition" didn't come down until AFTER the setting aside of the nation of Israel.

Israel was not Set aside until AFTER Israel, as a nation, rejected God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.

They rejected God the FAther when they, as a nation, refused to repent and be baptized of John and ALLOWED him to be killed. Also, they went about establishing their own righteousness (Rms 10:3).

They rejected God the Son when they, as a nation, DEMANDED that Jesus be crucified.

The rejected God the Holy/Spirit Ghost when THEY KILLED (stoned) Stephen, in Acts 7, who was filled with the HOly Ghost.

According to the OT promises, the world was to be blessed through the nation of Israel. Jesus Himself said that "I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (Matt 15:24). Jesus commanded that His disciples "...go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (Matt 10:6). Paul says Romans 15:8 that Jesus came to "...confirm the promises made to the fathers."

Under the "so called" great commission of Matthew 28,  and Mark 16 they were to preach "the gospel of the kingdom" and according to Luke 24:47 they were to start at Jerusalem.

We find the order of that commission in Acts 1:8. Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria and then the utter most parts of the earth.

Why Jrusalem first. Well, that is where the leaders of the Jewish Chruch were. Didn't Jesus command His disciples and the multitude to "observe and do" what they said?

Judea is where the Southern two tribes of Israel were located. That is where Jesus and His disciples confined their ministry. They, as a whole, had to accept Jesus as there Messiah.

Then the disciples were to go to Samaria. That is were the 10 "break away" Northern tribes were located. They are the "othere sheep" of John 10:16. If they would repent and accept Jesus as their Messiah then Israel would then again be "one fold", and they would have "one shepherd."

After it is again "one fold" and united under "one shepherd" THEN they were to go to the utter most parts of the earth with the gospel of the kingdom, not "the gospel of the grace of God."

According to the OT prophesies, the world is to blessed through the nation of Israel. Tell me now, How can the world be blessed through the nation of Israel when they, as a nation, rejected their King and His Kingdom? How can the "so called" great commission be carried out?

We know from Genesis 11 that God set the Gentiles aside at the Tower of Bable. We know from Acts 7 that Israel, as a nation, has rejected the 3rd Person of the Trinity, after already rejection God the Father and God the Son. We see that Saul/Paul was raised up in Acts 9, and in Acts 10 we see that God is showing Peter that the Jew and Gentile are Now on equal footing and without distinction. Romans 11:32 tell us "For God hath concluded them all (Jew and Gentile) in unbelief that He might have mercy upon all."

From the two "set aside" peoples God made(the new creation) the "one new man" of Epehsians 2:15; now called "the Body of Christ", and is "the Chruch for this dispensation of grace." (See Ephesians 2:13-18.)

So, when you SHOW ME Jew and Gentile on equal footing and without distinction prior to the raising up of Saul/Paul, I WILL believe you. Also, I might add, that the law was still in force at the time that Saul/Paul was converted. The Body of Christ, the Church for today is not under the Law, but under GRACE.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

There is only one gosple brother... therefore i do not have a problem :)

But it was nice talking to you

God bless

I also didnt say you had a problem...you need to reread my post. I said no problem brother...i will not debate with a person who seems to be an Ultra dispensationalist...they believe in two gosples, one is enough for me :)

Later Bro

Trying to keep it short:

Act 10:34
Then Peter opened [his] mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: (35) But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

ONE Lord....ONE faith....ONE baptism.....ONE Gospel.


Mat 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

AJ:
When I asked you to SHOW ME the Body of Christ prior to the raising up of Saul/Paul, your replied "No problem brother..." Then you failed to SHOW ME.

Therefore, are the one with the problem because you can't SHOW ME.

Also, you say that there is only one Gospel. Well, my Bible reads a little different then your does then.

Galatians 2:7 "But contrariwise, when they say that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter."

Looks like two (2) different gospels to me.

Further, I am not a hyper-dispensationalist or a denominationalist. See my postion on -  Bible Study / Re:IS Matthew Mark Luke and John in the New  on: September 17, 2004, 04:14:43 AM.

Then, if you still think I am a hyper-dispy, then point out to me why I am. I would appreciate that.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!  

BigD responds:
Acts 10 is AFTER Saul/Paul was converted.

Mat 27:51 says nothing that the Jew and Gentile were now on equal footing and without distinction. Peter confirms this in Acts 10:28. He was never shown prior to Acts 10 that the Gentile was not longer to be considered "unclean."

Why was the veil rent? What was the meaning of it's rending?

Peter wasn't shown, but Phillip was. A non-jew, even though a proselyte, was still considered by the Jews to be a gentile. Such was their status that they were prohibited entry into the temple to any place other than the court of the gentiles.

What was the meaning of the words "...and were added to the CHURCH daily such as should be saved..."  at a time when Saul was still "breathing out threatenings and slaughters". ?

BigD responds:
I cannot find any Scriptural passage that tell us why the veil of the temple was rent. One thing it did show though - that God was not in the Holy of Holies.

FYI a Gentile that became a proselyte was considered a Jew and was required to observe ALL the Civil, Moral and Ceremonial Laws of Moses and a beneficiary of all the promises to the Jews/Israel. Also, the curses.

The Chruch at Pentecost was a Jewish Church. Pentecost was a Jewish feast day and Peter was addressing only Jews and proselytes from many countries. See Acts 28-10.

Those "added to the church daily" were from among the crowd of Jewish believers that Peter was addressing.

Evangelist, if you believe that the Jews and Gentiles were on equal footing, without distinction and not under the Law; prior to Saul/Paul being raised up, give me your proof text. I will not accept anything less. PLEASE don't read the revelations to Paul into the Gospels and the book of the Acts into Scripture prior to Paul's conversion. That would be like reading the Laws of Moses into the Garden of Eden, or reading the battles of WWII into the battles of WWI. That is a NO NO!!!

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

I guess that the thing we have to realize about the Day of Pentecost, is that :
     1) It is a Jewish holiday
     2) It is a fullfilment of prophecy
                John 16:7-14; Joel 2:28-32
Not only is this evident by studying the scriptures and rightly dividing them, but Peter tells the believers there at Penetecost that this is a fullfilment of prophecy.

No where in prophecy is the church, the Body of Christ ever talked about.

And Paul states in Ephesians that God him the revelation of the dispensation of grace.  Eph. 3

BigD responds:

AMEN BROTHER, and thanks.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

Thats not really true brother.. Paul said that this mystery was revealed to the holy apostles and prophets by the spirit. No prophecy or revelation is of any private interpretation but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the holy ghost.

You will not find the word Body of Christ in the OT... but the prophecies are there for the salvation of the lord to also come to the Gentiles. Which of coarse is the same thing...and Paul also mentions these prophecies in the new testament.


Eph 3:4  Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
Eph 3:5  Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
Eph 3:6  That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:



Rom 16:25  Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
Rom 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:


Matthew 12:17  That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,
Matthew 12:18  Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.
Matthew 12:19  He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets.
Mat 12:20  A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory.
Mat 12:21  And in his name shall the Gentiles trust.


Rom 15:8  Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises [made] unto the fathers:
Rom 15:9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for [his] mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.
Rom 15:10  And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.
Rom 15:11  And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people.
Rom 15:12  And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.


Thats some on this mystery and the Prophets....  

God Bless you

PART I
mkelliott posted:

AJ responded:
BigD responds:
AJ, you are taking two verses in Scripture, written to two (2) different groups, as if they both applied to them.

How does Matthew 27:5 connected up with Luke 10:37 appeal to you?  vers 5 speaks of Judas "...and departed, and went and hanged himself." "Jesus said unto him, Go, and do thou likewise."

You statement "Paul said that this mystery was revealed to the holy apostles and prophets by the spirit" comes from Ephesians 3:5. which is prefaced with  "WHICH IN OTHER AGES WAS NOT MADE KNOW UNTO THE SONS OF MEN AS IS NOW REVEALED..."

Paul certainly could not have been talking about the 12 apostles and OT prophets. How could they know if it had not made know until we get to the Apostle Paul? Paul is talking about his co-laborers, i.e. Barnabas, Titus, Andronicus Junia, Sosthenese, Apollos, Epaphroditus, Silas and Timothy. (I may have even missed some others.)

"No prophecy or revelation is of any private interpretation but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the holy ghost." 2 Peter 1:20.

Peter is writing his fellow countrymen with whom he agreed, with Paul, to stay with in Galatians 2:9 - the Jews that were saved through the preaching of "the gospel of the kingdom."

2Peter1:20 What vs 20 is really saying is that no prophecy of Scripture is of anyone's own private origination (interpretive composition), but holy men of God were moved by the Holy Spirit and wrote down God- chosen, God breathed words.

AJ continues:
BigD responds:
Again, Paul could not have been speaking of OT prophets; for reasons stated above.

According to God's promise to Abram and the OT prophesies, Salvation was go to the Gentiles THROUGH Abram's seed Israel. In the OT and through the gospels and first part of Acts, if a Gentile wanted to serve the true and living God, that Gentile had to become a Jew (proselyte), and place themselves under the Civi, Moral and Ceremonial Laws of Moses. They have an earthly kingdom to look forward to.

Since the setting aside of Israel, God MADE the "one new man" of Ephesians 2:15. Believe Jews and Gentiles NOW make up "the Body of Christ." We are not under the Laws of Moses. The Civil, Moral and Ceremonial Laws to now apply to members of the Body of Christ. Also, we have a heavenly home to look forward to.

AJ posted:
BigD responds:
Jesus is quoting Isaiah 42:1-4 which is speaking of the time when their Messiah comes as a righteous judge and judges the Gentile nations. This will happen at the 2nd coming of Christ.

To be cont'd in PART II

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord.

PART II
AJ continues:
BigD responds:
To respond to the above verses, I will take from  volume 2 "A Commentary Of ROMANS Based On The Greek New Testament", by Ernest R. Campbell. I will delete the words written in the Greek Language and will put () where a Greek word was deleted.

8. "For &#921; say that Christ has been made a minister of the circumcisionon behalf of the truth of God, unto the end to confirm the promises of thefathers,"

The main Greek verb in this verse is in the aorist tense and passive voice. It succinctly states the fact that God the Father has made (constituted, and established Christ a minister of the circumcision. In other words, Christ did not assume this position Himself, but it was bestowed upon Him by God the Father.

Now let us examine the fact that Christ was made "&#945; minister of the circumcision." The Greek noun translated "minister" ( basically means one who serves, waits on, or attends others. Paul commonly uses this word with reference to himself and those teaching and preaching the gospel with him. In the verse before us He uses it with this same general meaning; Christ was a minister, teacher, and preacher of the Gospel of the kingdom proclaimed to the Jews (Matt. 4:17, 23; 10:25).

Those to whom Christ ministered are called the "circumcision" (). The covenant which God made with Abraham included the rite of circumcision (Genesis 17:10-11; Rom. 4:11). Since Abraham's seed, the Jews, practiced circumcision, in process of time this word became their proper name (Gal. 2:9).

The reason Christ was made a minister of the circumcision was "on behalf of the truth of God." The basic meaning of the preposition "()" is on behalf of, for the sake of, and concerning the truth of God. What does the phrase "the truth of God" () mean as used in this context? The final statement in this verse makes it clear that what Paul has in mind is Old Testament truth which pertains to the prophesied Messianic Kingdom. Jesus proclaimed this truth in the Synoptic gospels (cf. Matt. 22:16; 3:2; 4:23; 9:25). This same truth is also the message of the first eight chapters in the Book of Acts (3:18-26).

The primary object of Jesus Christ's earthly ministry was not to bring into being a spiritual organism, the Church, but "to confirm the promises of the fathers." In Genesis 12:1-3 God promises Abraham that he will be the progenitor of a great nation and that in him all the families of the earth will be blessed. As theprophetic Old Testament unfolds, it is obvious that this blessing will come via the establishment of a righteous kingdom upon the earth over which one in the lineage of David will reign (Psa. 22:27-28; 145:11-13; Isa. 32:1; 33:17-22; Jer. 23:5-8).

9. "and the Gentiles on behalf of mercy to glorify God; even as it has been written, On account of this &#921; will confess you among the Gentiles, and &#921; will sing to your name."

Before we can accurately exegete the truth from this verse, we must recognize that it expands Christ's ministry to include the Gentiles. The flow of thought through these two verses seems to be as follows: Christ is a minister of the Jews on behalf of the truth of God to fulfill the promises, and He is a minister of the Gentiles on behalf of the mercy of God.

On the basis of the promises God had made to the forefathers of the Jews, He obligated Himself to send Christ as a special minister unto them, i.e., to establish the promised Kingdom, which has been temporarily rejected. Likewise, in the present Church age, on the basis of the fact that God predestined and foreordained individuals to be saved, He obligated Himself to also send Christ to minister to Gentiles.

Now that Christ's earthly ministry, including the Cross, was rejected by Israel in the first seven chapters of the Book of Acts, God in His grace saved Saul of Tarsus preparatory to revealing the Truth for the Church. Christ's Church ministry to individual Gentiles, as we have it in this verse, does not begin until after the climactic death of Stephen, and even then it gradually replaces the Kingdom message.

It is exceedingly important that we grasp the significance of the word "mercy" () in this verse. First, it is inseparable from the love of God; in fact, love is its forerunner (Eph. 2:4). Second, it is the basis for God's redemptive program in this present dispensation of Grace. Sinners are not saved by their human wills nor by their human works, but as a result of the mercy of God (9:16). During this age of Grace God declares that all Jews and Gentiles are disobedient; they are sinners. But the good news is that He has mercy on all (11:32).

Whereas verse 8 pertains to the presentation and offer of the Messianic Kingdom to the nation of Israel, the truth in verse 9 is pertinent for both individual Jews and Gentiles. According to Titus 3:5 God "saved us according to his mercy." As a result of God saving us by His mercy, we are made capable "to glorify" () Him and have something for which to glorify Him, namely, our eternal salvation in Christ (cf. 9:23-24).

In the Book of Ephesians Paul says that the Gentiles are "fellow-citizens with the saints and the family of God." He cites the Mystery revealed unto him as his authority for saying that the Gentiles are on a par with the Jews in the Body of Christ (Eph. 2:19; 3:2-9). In the verse before us Paul quotes portions from the Old Testament which indicate that the Gentiles will share with the Lord's people, Israel. We suggest that he is using this evidence to corroborate truth revealed to him via the Mystery, particularly, to allay Jewish feeling against Gentile Body members.

The portion of the quotation which appears in this ninth verse conveys the thought that the name of the Lord will be openly confessed among the Gentiles, and His name will be the object of singing.

10. "And again He says, &#933;&#959;&#965; rejoice, Gentiles, with his people."

The main reason for quoting this passage is because it depicts a happy union between the Gentiles and Jews. It would be hard for the Jewish believer, even though prejudiced, to refute this kind of corroborating evidence.

11. "And again, Praise the Lord, all you Gentiles, and let all the people praise him."

This quotation is apparently taken from Psalm 117:1. It is an exhortation for all Gentiles and all peoples to praise the Lord. Since God is the one ordering the Gentiles to praise the Lord, even a cynical Jew would be hard-pressed to refute it.

12. "And again Isaiah says, There shall be the root of Jesse, even the one who rises up to rule the Gentiles; on him the Gentiles will hope."

This quotation comes from Isaiah 11:10. The thought here is that one in David's lineage will rule the Gentiles, namely, Christ, in whom the Gentiles will place their hope. Let us remember, Paul began this series of quotations from the Old Testament to confirm Christ's ministry to the elect among the Gentiles (2 Tim. 2:10). He ends the series with the declaration that Christ will ultimately rule over the Gentiles and that He will be the object of their hope. Even though these quotations primarily refer to the part the Gentiles will have in Christ's world-wide earthly Kingdom, Paul also uses them in a secondary manner to affirm that the Gentiles are an important part of God's people, the Church, during this time of the "fullness of the Gentiles" (11:25).

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord.

Thats not correct...Paul was talking about ALL the holy apostles and prophets....i also dont see Peters name there as you say i may have missed a few...how could you miss Peter when he and Paul were the first to see this Mystery. I hope your not trying to rob Peter to pay Paul...

This mystery of the grace of God to the Gentiles, was also shown to some of the Prophets. Theres no way to deny it...Period.


Rom 16:25  Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
Rom 16:26  But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets,


And by the scriptures of the prophets? like i said...theres no way around this, we can fill the whole board with our wisdom and fancy speaches and doctrines of men... but at the end of the day it is Gods word that has the final say...the wisdom of men is foolishness with God.


1Pe 1:9  Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
1Pe 1:10  Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
1Pe 1:11  Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
1Pe 1:12  Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.


who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

As we see here the prophets prophesied of the grace that should come...


Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us

This is what it means to not reveal it to the sons of men at that time.. but it is now revealed by the Spirit. Many prophets have prophecied and had no idea at that time what God was saying by them...thats why Paul said this mystery was not known unto the sons of men until now...sometimes a prophecy needs to be fulfiled before its compleatly understood, the book of revelation proves that. And thats what Paul was trying to say here,nothing more or nothing less.

Even the angels were looking into it brother...we should do likewise.

Sorry for takeing so long for a reply...now this is enough vain babling for me, im all done with this post...let the word of God be true, and not us...


God bless you brother

BigD posted:

Paul certainly could not have been talking about the 12 apostles and OT prophets. How could they know if it had not made know until we get to the Apostle Paul? Paul is talking about his co-laborers, i.e. Barnabas, Titus, Andronicus Junia, Sosthenese, Apollos, Epaphroditus, Silas and Timothy. (I may have even missed some others.)

AJ responded:
Thats not correct...Paul was talking about ALL the holy apostles and prophets....i also dont see Peters name there as you say i may have missed a few...how could you miss Peter when he and Paul were the first to see this Mystery. I hope your not trying to rob Peter to pay Paul...

This mystery of the grace of God to the Gentiles, was also shown to some of the Prophets. Theres no way to deny it...Period.

Rom 16:25  Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
Rom 16:26  But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets,

And by the scriptures of the prophets? like i said...theres no way around this, we can fill the whole board with our wisdom and fancy speaches and doctrines of men... but at the end of the day it is Gods word that has the final say...the wisdom of men is foolishness with God.

BigD replies:
PLEASE explain to me how the OT prophets knew and prophesied what was revealed to Paul which "was kept secret since the world began." That just doesn't make sense to me. Maybe you can show me the Scritpures that say that.
-------------------------------------

AJ goes on:
1Pe 1:9  Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
1Pe 1:10  Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
1Pe 1:11  Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
1Pe 1:12  Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

As we see here the prophets prophesied of the grace that should come...

Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us

This is what it means to not reveal it to the sons of men at that time.. but it is now revealed by the Spirit. Many prophets have prophecied and had no idea at that time what God was saying by them...thats why Paul said this mystery was not known unto the sons of men until now...sometimes a prophecy needs to be fulfiled before its compleatly understood, the book of revelation proves that. And thats what Paul was trying to say here,nothing more or nothing less.

Even the angels were looking into it brother...we should do likewise.

Sorry for takeing so long for a reply...now this is enough vain babling for me, im all done with this post...let the word of God be true, and not us...

BigD responds:
1Pe 1:10 says that "the prophets have searched diligently..." So it is apparent that they really didn't know about it and had to search the Scriptures. What Scriptures do you think that they might have come up with?

1Pe 1:12  Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, WHICH ARE NOW REPORTED unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

It appears that Peter is saying that it wasn't repored before.

In speaking of the mystery, Paul says in Ephesians 3:9 "And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10 To the intent that NOW unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be know by the church the manifold wisdom of God."

God has ALWAYS shown his grace since the fall of ADAM, but it is the dispensation of grace that was "kept secret since the world began." The angels didn't even know about it.

In his book "BASIC BIBLE DOCTRINES", by Donald Webb, he has the following to say about 1 Peter 9-12.

REVELATION IS PROGRESSIVE.
God's revelation is progressive. God did not reveal all the truth at one sitting, but progressively unfolded His truth from the earlier to the later books of the Bible. We do not believe that God revealed stories and myths that eventually ended in truth. We believe that God revealed truth in progressive stages until finally the full secret purpose of His will had been made known. Note Peter's words:

Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you, Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Unto whom it was revealed, not unto themselves but unto us they did minister the things which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Spirit sent down from heaven, which things the angels desired to look into. (1 Peter 1:9-12).

Even the prophets themselves whom God used to reveal truth awaited further revelation for understanding. As the Lord preached the kingdom program to and through the Twelve Apostles, greater understanding was received. Later through another Apostle (the Apostle Paul) an abundance of revelations was given concerning what God calls "the mystery of His will" in Christ Jesus (Ephesians 1:9).

The Bible is a dispensational book, and "progressive revelation is basic to the dispensational character of the Bible."1 We know that not all the Bible is written to one group of people, nor does all the Bible concern one particular program; but rather, God has dealt with man under several different economies or dispensations. "The fact that one dispensation has succeeded another necessitates added revelation for the succeeding dispensations. In this sense, progressive revelation becomes almost synonymous with dispensationalism."
-------------------------------
I will agree with you, the Word of God is true.

God Bless.

Live Well,  Laugh Often,  Love the Lord!

Gen 6:8

8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
KJV

Gen 19:19

19 Behold now, thy servant hath found grace in thy sight, and thou hast magnified thy mercy, which thou hast shewed unto me in saving my life; and I cannot escape to the mountain, lest some evil take me, and I die:
KJV

Ex 33:12

12 And Moses said unto the LORD, See, thou sayest unto me, Bring up this people: and thou hast not let me know whom thou wilt send with me. Yet thou hast said, I know thee by name, and thou hast also found grace in my sight.
KJV

Ex 33:16-17

16 For wherein shall it be known here that I and thy people have found grace in thy sight? is it not in that thou goest with us? so shall we be separated, I and thy people, from all the people that are upon the face of the earth.

17 And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.
KJV

Ex 34:9-10

9 And he said, If now I have found grace in thy sight, O Lord, let my Lord, I pray thee, go among us; for it is a stiffnecked people; and pardon our iniquity and our sin, and take us for thine inheritance.

10 And he said, Behold, I make a covenant: before all thy people I will do marvels, such as have not been done in all the earth, nor in any nation: and all the people among which thou art shall see the work of the LORD: for it is a terrible thing that I will do with thee.
KJV

 When has His creation been with out grace?

BigD responds:
I posted the following in my previous post.

"God has ALWAYS shown his grace since the fall of ADAM, but it is the dispensation of grace that was "kept secret since the world began." The angels didn't even know about it."

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

WHOA WHOA WHOA... am i'm reading this right. The Bible points that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is the TRUE Gospel...how can you then say that there are two gospels? If that's so then by saying that you are insenuating that there is another method of salvation. THERE IS ONE GOSPEL AND IT TELLS ABOUT OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST. you posted from Galatians. Post the whole thing if ur gonna argue there's two Gospels. If you read the whole thing in context, Paul never said that that these were actually Gospels...he used to word to covey that they were in actuality false doctrines...that in no way says that there are two Gospels.

Galatians 2:5
5   To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.
6   But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person:) for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:
7   But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
8   (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)

If i remember correctly there is only one Gospel...only ONE way to heaven, and only one Truth and that's Christ...to say there are two gospels...means something's wrong. just a thought...and on the issue of the OT prophets. They knew Israel was going to be punished....heck they PROPHECIED it. Yet they also prophecied that Israel would be reborn as a nation both physically and spiritually.(And you can't deny that Israel has been reborn as a nation physically, to do that would ignore History) The former has happened...the latter has yet to happen and won't come to ultimate fulfillment until the Millenium.

my time's up...i gotta go pick up my dad...see ya'll soo. God Bless

In Christ,
Joshua

Sorry I have taken so long in responding. I have been out of state for the past week and just returned yesterday afternoon.


BigD responds:
FYI the word "gospel" simply means "good news". I cannot find the "good news" (gospel) of the Cross prior to the raising up of the Apostle Paul. Had it been known, satan would have "worked like the devil" to keep Christ from the Cross (see 1Cor2:8,9).

Nowhere from Adam to Moses can I find that the good news (gospel) of the Law. From the giving of the Law to Moses until the raising up of the Apostle Paul can I find the good news (gospel) of the Cross, and that mankind was saved apart from the Law and by putting their FAITH and trust in the Cross work of Christ.

From the fall of Adam to the present day; man has always been saved/justified BY FAITH. FAITH in believing and/or doing what God required at that point in time of human history.

From the above, you should be able to see that salvation/justification has ALWAYS been on the basis of FAITH.

However, there are two (2) primary doctrines spoken of in the Bible. They are the doctrine of LAW and GRACE; commonly called "gospels" (good news's).

I did not take Galatians 2:9 out of context. The gospel (good news) of the circumcision was given to those of the circumcision - JEWS. Didn't Jesus say in Matthew 15:24 "I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel" ? Doesn't Paul tell us in Romans 15:8 that Jesus came "...to confirm the promises made to the (Jewish) fathers"? Didn't the set aside Gentiles, (prior to the setting aside of Israel), from Genesis 11 have to become Jews (proselytes) to obtain those promises? The gospel (good news) of circumcision was given to Abram/Abraham and was in effect until God set his seed (Isreal) aside. To be uncircumcised at that time meant total seperation from God FOREVER.

The gospel (good news) that Paul preached was the gospel (good news) of "uncircumcision" (GRACE. Doing the deed/works of the Law, BY FAITH, were no longer required. The Gentile no longer had to become a Jew (proselyte) to merit salvation/justification.  Since the "revealation of the mystery" that was given to the Apostle Paul, salvation/justification was FAITH ALONE in the Cross work (death, burial and resurrection) of Christ, APART FROM THE LAW.

The good news (gospel) of the Law is contrary to the good news (gospel) of Grace. Law = observe and do, or pay the penalty. Grace = unmerited favor. When these two doctrines (good news's) are mixed they only bring about confusion and denominations.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

Thanks BigD,

AMEN!!!!



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