ChristiansUnite Forums

Hey Im new to these threads and a pretty new devoted christian so Im not any bible expert. But I think(just my personal theory)the end times have already began the Bible makes the end times seem like they will take a long time 100s 1000s of years maybe everything doesnt have to happen in one year. I think it has already began and it will slowly start gettin worse and worse as the years pass. Remember there already are alot of signs in there youth out in the world right now. Please respond Im open to any civil speculation

The "end times," we are nearing (in my opinion.) Here is what I posted on another thread.

I posted all this material here. (http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?board=4;action=display;threadid=4248;start=0)

Thank you many of these things I didnt know of or contimplate about.

Your welcome T8P

I believe if you read Revelation 13 carefully, you'll discover that "chip" technology has nothing to do with the "mark of the beast".

The Apostle John was given a vision of Babylon coming out of the sea with "man" from all seven continents of the world; one of which was an emotionally  "wounded" man called the "beast".

John saw how that Babylon healed his wound by creating an "image" of him; an image which all accepted with their minds, and with their right hand, worked to exalt the beast.

The prophet Daniel gives detailed information about this same Babylon whom he refers to as "the little horn" in chapters 8 through 12. So much so that it's like reading American history.

In addition to scriptures which describe the exaltation of "the beast", there are scriptures which resemble the Civil war, the Civil Rights Movement, and that day on June 25, 1962 when America turned from Christ, and took away daily school prayer.

They are scriptures which coincide precisely with what the Apostle Paul wrote in 11Thes 2 when he said, (paraphrasing)
That day (the day of Christ) shall not come except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed; the son of perdition.  Who opposeth, and exalteth himself about all whom are called by God's name, or anyone that's worshipped.  So that he will sit amongst God's people showing himself that he is their God.

And Paul again says in Romans1,
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an "image" made like to corruptible man..........and worshipped and served the creature (the beast) "more" than Jesus Christ.








 

FayeC quote...


 Hello FayeC

I must disagree with your interpretation of the mark.
 If you read the scriptures closely, you'll see specific terminology used which lines up much better with some sort of device which is in the hand or in the forehead, and that without this device (micro-chip) no one can buy or sell. Right now, we need either cash or credit cards to do our purchasing. However, if you follow the evolution of buying and selling, you will find a definite pattern of gradual change implemented by the "powerful" in how we buy and sell.
 At one time, we bartered and traded goods for goods. Here in Canada, the Hudson's Bay company put an end to that system and replaced it with a monetary system...wooden nickles at first, then coinage began to be minted out of coppers, gold, silver and nickle. Eventually we began using paper cash, and more recently plastic has been used. The downfall with coin and paper money, as well as credit cards is the obvious wear and tear, as well as the relative ease of theft, robbery and counterfeiting, not to mention black market and money laundering, etc.

 How outlandish do you think it would be for a cashless system to be implemented - replaced by a system which deploys micro-chip and scanner technology?


Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

 Jesus says that whosoever receives this "mark" will be doomed to Hell...there can be no salvation for them. If the mark was simply an acceptance of satan, then that sentence would be out of line with the conditions of salvation as we know them. There are thousands of people the world-wide who have at one time in their lives been satan worshipers, only to have turned away from that evil and received salvation through Jesus Christ.

 As far as your belief in...

 That doesn't line up with the scriptures my friend. The bible is clear, that he was killed by a sword, and not "emotionally wounded"

Rev 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by [the means of] those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

 Good discussing with you Faye.

 Bronzesnake

I personaly agree that micro-chips are more then likley going to be the mark. But even if they weren't you cant be 100% sure so I wont go excepting any kind of mark from anyone. Im not willing to wage my salvation on a theory.

 Absolutely! I share your opinion on this one my friend.

Bronzesnake.

Again....If you read Rev.13 carefully you'll find that "chip technology" or any kind of technology for that matter, has no relationship whatsoever with the end-time "beast".

That chapter says that "the beast"; the ones whom are worshipped, is a "man".  NOT an individual man!, but rather a "type" or race of man.

It is the beast; that race of man, that has the mark/image made of him.  And it is "ALL" whom accept that image.  
Check it out!

Another thing:
If you notice, it is the beast whom is able to "buy and sell", NOT those whom have accepted his image!

While agree nothing is said about chip technology in the passage, it does not rule out the possibility of it either which I will show.


On this one you have some explaining to do.  Where do you get the idea that it is speaking of a race?   I see nothing like that in the passage.  The beast has a deadly wound that is healed....this happens to an entire race?  

Rev 13:6  And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Striking similarities.   Notice He is called a man in the Thess. passage, the son of perdition.


Yes lets check it out!

Rev 13:13  And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
Rev 13:14  And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

The second beast does miracles in the presense of the first, and encourages men of the earth to make an image in honor of this man (son of perdition) who was mortally wounded but yet lived.

Rev 13:15  And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Another bizzare miracle, causing the image itself to be lifelike.
Notice this next verse...


Rev 13:16  And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Rev 13:17  And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

He causeth ALL (who? rich, poor, free, and bond...covers everyone) to receive a mark, that NO MAN might buy or sell, except HE that had the name, or the number of his name.  

How is it in todays world, that somone could track who is able to buy and sell?   Computers tied to the world wide network rings a bell!   How is it that we can already buy and sell without cash?   That little plastic card we all carry around in our wallets makes for an almost cash free society as it is.   What would be the next step?   Suppose you had a chip in your hand that tracked the same bank account info your plastic card does?   What if stores, gas stations, jobs, all went that route in favour of legislation requiring all citizens to be implanted (due to terrorism prevention or something like that) in order for you to get payed, buy, or sell?   It all starts to look like reality on the horizon does it not?   Even worse, if that chip carries the name or number of a man who all world leaders decide to pledge allegiance to.

Maybe it wont be a chip, but it sure wouldn't surprise me one bit if it was.   One thing is certain however, we are getting close, very close now to the end.   If you have family that do not know the Lord, its time to start praying, and sharing Christ with them in earnest.   The tide of prophecy is slowly washing in on an unsuspecting world.  Time is running out!

Maranatha Lord Jesus!

It does not matter what our oppinions are on the mark I say to everyone do not except any mark at all for it is not worth condemption. In response to the beast being able to by and sell this is false.

It is clearly written "He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, and that no one may uy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name." Rev. 13:16-17.

Also the beast is a single man not a group of people this to is clearly seen in the bible "And HE deceives those who dwell on the earth by those signs wich HE was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded bye the sword and lived." Rev. 13:14. You see the beast is a he, he will give signs and he will be wounded by a sword and healed. It is not and they deceive those or they were granted; but HE!

Sorry 2nd Timothy I did not realize there was a second page and posted in reply to Silver Surfer.

I meen fayeC im so sorry for all the posts please forgive me I need some sleep. Goodnight.

No worries 8th!  I think you said it just as well if not better, and in fewer words to boot!   :D  I need sleep now too....lol

Grace and Peace!

All of you seem to wanna translate "seven mountains/continents of man" to mean "seven individual men".

That is "Babylon" which John sees coming out of the sea in verse one of Rev.13.  And it consists of multitudes, nations, and peoples.  Thus the seven heads are seven continents/races of man within Babylon.

John refers to one of the races; the one that is wounded, collectively as "he".

It's like saying for example:  "the caucasian man (meaning all of them collectively) makes up the majority, and "he" will most likely vote Republican."

Thus, John sees that one of the continents; or one of the races of man within Babylon is a wounded race of man, and that Babylon heals his wound, creates an image of that race, and causes all to accept that image.

It is Babylon that has the "power", and "does great wonders", and makes "fire come down from heaven", and "causes all to accept the image" which he (Babylon) created of the beast.

The text says that all accepted the image of that race, and exalted him by using their intellect or by working physically with their right hand.

Verse 3 describes how that "the whole world" will "wonder after" the beast; which is to say that the whole world will be ware of, and "study about" the beast and his movement in Babylon.

 Faye.

 Without trying to sound condenscending, please allow me to point out a major problem with men/women interpreting the bible instead of taking it literally - as it is written.

 When God says...

Rev 13:6  And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

 He means exactly what He says. It's very unambiguous. The only way you can interpret these obvious references to describe a "race" instead of a specific, single person who happens to be a man (satan) is to ignore the information presented, and indeed be ignorant of a major biblical theme...the fact that satan is the father of sin, and it is satan who will arrive on earth and claim to be God, as the following verses clearly describe...

2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

2Th 2:4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

 The following (below) is from Jack VanImpe...

 Rev 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

The wounding of the beast is mentioned three times in this chapter-verse 3, 12, and 14. The wound produces death, but restoration to life follows. Some commentators think that this statement represents the fall of the old Roman Empire and its restoration through the ten-nation confederacy. Others believe that it speaks of the resurrection of Judas Iscariot, for he and the Antichrist are the only ones ever called the son of perdition (John 17:12 and 2 Thessalonians 2:3). God alone knows.

A third possibility would be that the Antichrist is assassinated midway through the Tribulation hour, perhaps in retaliation for overthrowing three members of the original ten-nation federation. Such an event would give the great counterfeiter, Satan, the opportunity to perform a resurrection. This would prove invaluable to the prestige of the Antichrist, since the deity of the Lord Jesus was affirmed by His resurrection 2,000 years before (see Matthew 12:39,40). Remember that the Antichrist proclaims himself God and even sits in the Temple in Jerusalem during the Tribulation (see 2 Thessalonians 2:4 and Matthew 24:15). Thus, a counterfeit resurrection would assure the world that he is all he claims to be. I personally believe this to be the correct solution, because when it happens, all the world wonders after him. Mankind is literally overwhelmed by the Antichrist's power and authority.

Verse 4: And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Another reason that verse 3 may speak of an actual resurrection is that millions who previously would not believe in the Antichrist now begin to worship himùand Satan.

 In the second half of this chapter, we will see that the false prophet or religious leader of the Tribulation period actually enforces the worship of the Antichrist! Since the people think of him as God, they cry, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? Yes, who can combat this self-proclaimed god and be victorious?

Verse 5: And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

The Antichrist's blasphemy during the final three and one-half years of the Tribulation hour most likely has to do with his mockery of the Almighty. One of the reasons God hates idolatry (the use of images in worship) is that He wants no rivals. Hear Jehovah in Exodus 20:4 and 5: Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God. Think of the insult to the Eternal One when the Antichrist says, "I am God," and teeming millions bow to him, to Satan, to the false prophet, and to the image-the abomination of desolation-erected in his honor. This blasphemy continues.

Verse 6: And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

Jesus, the true God, was accused of blasphemy in His day because He claimed to be God (see Matthew 9:3). Ironically, the world accepts the Antichrist's claim to deity, and this perpetrated lie is blasphemy to God. The blasphemy is undoubtedly intensified because Satan himself is speaking.

Now, here is a thought-provoking theory: during the first forty-two months of the Tribulation, the Antichrist acts under the influence of Satan. However, after Satan is cast out of heaven (in chapter 12) and comes to earth, he may actually incarnate himself in the dead body of the Antichrist who had the wound by a sword, and did live (chapter 14). Thus, the beast is raised from the dead by the counterfeiter (Satan), who dwells in that body for the final forty-two months, claiming deity. As a result, he is able to experience that which he sought when he was cast out of heaven, crying, I will be like the most high (see Isaiah 14:12-14). Satan's ultimate desire is now realized-he is worshipped as God. The blasphemy is unspeakable! He desecrates everything his filthy hands touch, including the Tabernacle and its worshipers.

Verse 7: And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

The fight is on for the saints of the Tribulation hour. Remember, this is not the Church. Satan battles the Church as they return with Christ (chapter 19, verse 14). In the scene before us, he is attempting to destroy the millions who washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb (chapter 7, verse 14) and who also refused the mark of the beast (chapter 20, verse 4). Instead of experiencing defeat, they overcome (Satan) by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony (chapter 12, verse 11).

During this time, the Antichrist controls the entire world. He is an international despot exercising power over all kindreds, tongues, and nations. Such a one-world government is almost upon us. Consider for a moment the global organizations which have become existent in our day: (1) the International Atomic Energy Agency, (2) the International Labor Organization, (3) the Food and Agricultural Organization, (4) the International Bank for Reconstruction and Development, or World Bank, (5) the International Development Association, (6) the United Nations Educational, Scientific, and Cultural Organization, commonly called UNESCO, (7) the World Health Organization, (8) the International Finance Corporation, (9) the International Monetary Fund, (10) the International Civil Aviation Organization, (11) the Universal Postal Union, (12) the International Telecommunications Union, (13) the World Meteorological Association, (14) the Intergovernmental Maritime Consultive Organization, and (15) the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trades Organization. The formation of such international alliances has led outstanding thinkers to state that "a New World Order" is on the horizon.

Presently we may be witnessing mankind's final approach to the much-publicized New World Order, or one-world government, of the Antichrist. At this point in history, all the world will be amazed as this self-styled deity takes control, and the majority will submit to his authority. However, God always has a remnant who will not bow to Baal or other deities.

Bronzesnake

Are you familiar with Daniel 8 through 12, Bronzesnake?

If you are, then you know that Daniel speaks exclusively about the 10 horned "beast" and the mighty "little horn" nation wherein the beast operates.
Daniel speaks of the two (the beast and the little horn) interchangable, and refers to each of them as "he", just as the Apostle John does in Revelation when he refers to Babylon as "he" and the beast as "he".

Daniel gives explisit details about the beast, and never once does he suggest that they are killed.  He instead speaks of their "exaltation" and the worship of them.

The amazing thing about those chapters in Daniel is that they resemble so much America!
Guess that's why Christ suggested that we be mindful of that which he called "the holy place" in Mat. 24:15 when he referred us to the scriptures in Daniel.  
Surely he was referring to America, a nation built on the principles of God, with the Gospel that has gone out to the world, and with the thousands of Christian churches in our land,.... wouldn't you think?!

"And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and they shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate," Daniel says of the little horn in ch.11:31

That scripture is describing how  that God's people (the host of America) have polluted the church, and have taken away daily school prayer, and how that they put in place the worship of the beast.  The worship of that race of "man" called "the beast" has been the direct cause for the desolation of America.

"And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and "the people of the prince" that shall come, shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined,"  says Dan.9:26

Daniel is describing in that verse how that in 62 Jesus Christ was cut off in America when on June 25th of that year School prayer was taken away, and afterwards  "the people of the prince"; a race of "man" called "the beast" in Rev., began to be exalted in our nation.  He is describing how that "the beast" will desecrete America and the Church.

"He shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease."  Dan.9:27

No better description could be given of that infamous day when on June 25th; the middle of the year of 62 the Supreme Court, after having the case for one year, handed down the decision to remove prayer and the worship of Jesus Christ from America's schools.

Dan.8 through 12 is FILLED with references to America.  In addition to "the removeal of school prayer", it has references to "the Civil War", and the "Civil Rights Movement" among others.  So explicit that one would have to be blind not to recognize them.

"Let no man deceive you", Paul says in 11Thes.2,  "for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed; the son of perdition.  
Who "opposeth" and "exalteth" himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."
"And now you know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time."

The "falling away" from Christ has happened in America, and without a doubt Paul is saying in that verse that it was "the worship of Christ", and "the daily school prayers" in America which was holding the beast at bay.
Like Daniel, he explains in that verse how that the beast opposes those whom are "called by God's name" and exalts themselves above ALL men, as he sit's amongst God's people in America, knowing that he is worshipped.

"Professing themselves to be wise", Paul says of "the host" of America, "they became fools, and changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an "image" made like to corruptible "man", and worshipped and served the creature/"the beast" MORE than Jesus Christ."

If you people cannot agree with me on anything else, surely you would have to agree that the prophets were talking about "America's" falling away from Christ, because America has indeed fallen away from him. We have locked him up behind the walls of our churches, and everything pertaining to God in our nation has been thrown down.

All those things which were prophesied in the scriptures have happened in America.  All that's left to be fulfilled is the tribulation period of which God will cause those whom his people worship to persecute them.


It's late....Goodnight.

Hi there I’m new here.   :)  I’ve been looking through this thread and wanted to point a few things out if I may.

FayeC, I wanted to ask how you reconcile Revelation Chapters 17 and 18 with your view that the 7 headed beast of Revelation is “Babylon”.  Consider that it is revealed in Chapter 17 that the 10 horns of the beast destroy “Mystery Babylon”.  Does this mean that she, in effect, destroys herself?



Mystery Babylon is destroyed before Christ returns and she is destroyed by the 10 horns on the seven headed beast.  They are the harbingers of God’s judgment upon her.  So how does it logically follow that the seven headed beast equals the Babylon it destroys?  Just a note but remember that the armies of the beast are still around at Armageddon as they follow the beast into the battle at Armageddon.  Yet Babylon is already destroyed by the time Armageddon takes place.  So how are they the same?

FayeC I do agree that America has fallen away. But where do you get the rest of these ideas you have to take the word of God for what it is not what it could be. God talks about the anti-christ as a he singular not plural he gets wounded it says so in revelations he does miracles like making fire come down from the sky. How could all of America make fire come down from the sky. It is obvious what these verses meen. The Bible is not there to trick you and have hidden meanings.

Mystery Babylon is described in Rev.17 as "having seven heads and ten horns".
Likewise, the beast coming out of the sea in Rev.13 also has "seven heads and ten horn".

The seven heads represent 7 "mountains" or continents of people within Babylon.

The ten horns represent "the beast", the ones whom are "worshipped"  in Rev.13.

"Babylon", the "woman", and the "harlot", are one and the same intinty.

They represent "America", and the seed of the Founding Fathers, whom have cut off Jesus Christ from our nation, and are worshipping the beast.

Notice that Rev.17:16 says that "the ten horns (the beast) shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh and burn her with fire."

This no doubt will be known as "the time of Jacob's trouble"; or, "the tribulation period", when the beast will persecute the the hosts of America/the offspring of America's Founding Fathers.

If you have any doubts about where Babylon is, just read Revelation 18.  The descriptions given there is clearly that of America.
























































 

FayeC...
 
 
 I just lost my entire post in response to your latest incorrect intpretation of the scriptures...it was too long, and I forgot to save it before I hit post...I lost the entire post.

 So...I will cheat, and paste an article from Jack Van Impe, which sums up what I wanted to say.

 Bronzesnake...

  Babylon ofRevelation 14 is a religious system, whereas the Babylon of Revelation 16 is political. The chapter before us, then, is the story of the rise and fall ofthe ecumenical world church, while chapter 18 describes the destruction of a political system. Let’s begin our investigation of chapter 17 and discussits prophetic implications, historically.

Verse 1: And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials,and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

Here we see one of the seven angels who administered one of the seven judgments speaking to the disciple, John, inviting him to view the judgment of the great harlot who sitteth upon many waters. This phrase, many waters,speaks of religious control over humanity, internationally. Proof? Verse 15:The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

Verse 2: With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, andthe inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

Here we discover that this worldwide religious system holds both earth’s leaders and people within its grasp. The fornication committed is between these worldly leaders and the church. Remember that fornication, spiritually speaking, has to do with idolatry, including all its evil connotations and associations.

Spiritual fornication also has to do with Christianity embracing the world—leaping out of Christ’s arms into those of another lover. God’s Word instructs true Christians to be separated from the world (see Romans 12:2),specifically cautioning them not to fall in love with the world or anything that it contains (see 1 John 2:15). Those who disregard these commands are spiritual adulterers or fornicators. That’s why James 4:4 declares, Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world isenmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is theenemy of God. Harlotry and whoredom, then, speak of idolatry and worldliness.

During the Tribulation hour, a vast international religious system (thegreat whore of verse 1) creates impure alignments with kings, rulers, and presidents in an unprecedented way. Her control is so overwhelming that humanity becomes mentally stupefied or hypnotically drugged as they are made drunk with the intoxicating brew of these religious/political alliances.

Verse 3: So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I sawa woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy,having seven heads and ten horns.

At this point John, guided by the Holy Spirit. observes the woman (or worldchurch) sitting upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy,having seven heads and ten horns. We first saw this beast in chapter 13,verse 1: I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns. We immediately recognize him to be the Antichrist, who came to power through a confederation of western nations pictured by the ten horns and ten toes.
The only difference between the present text and verse 1 of chapter 13 isthat the beast is now described as being scarlet coloured. Most commentators believe this reflects his bloody assault upon the world as he rises to power. He begins his reign with a fake peace pact (see Daniel 9:27) which helater breaks! As a result, millions are slaughtered during his rule. Now he bears the blood-red color of an executioner.

Verse 4: And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her handfull of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

As this world church on earth is described, please keep in mind that the true Church—the bride of Christ—is in heaven (chapter 4, verse 1). Her members were raptured from all nations and from many denominations. In fact,their song was recorded in chapter 5, verse 9: Thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation. The lyrics clearly prove that they trusted in the precious blood of Jesus for salvation. There is no other way (see 1 Peter1:18,19). Cain rejected the blood and tried to appease God with a vegetable offering (see Genesis 4:3), but God said, It is the blood that maketh anatonement for the soul (Leviticus 17:11). One cannot get to heaven by following the commandments of men (Matthew 15:9), observing tradition (seeMark 7:9), or as a result of works (see Titus 3:5). Thus, those who believed and obeyed God’s teachings concerning the blood of the Lamb are in heaven when the false church, the great whore that sitteth upon many waiters, holds sway over the earth.

This false religious system of the Tribulation hour is a complete union of the church and the world. Its members are the leftovers from all denominations. They were either doctrinally or morally wrong. One is as bad as the other. The doctrinally wrong are described in 2 Peter 2:1 and 3: But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction...whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

The morally wrong are pictured in Jude, verses 8-21. Now we understand why theology and morality are so important! When God says, All have sinned(Romans 3:23), He means all. When He declares, The wages of sin is death(Romans 6:23), He means punishment. When He declares, The blood of JesusChrist his Son cleanseth us from all sin (1 John 1:7), He means just that!There are no two ways about it! God says what He means—and means what Hesays. If one rejects God’s Word, he will end up among this Tribulation crowd of self-indoctrinated religionists in a world church destined for destruction.

Secondly, if one says he is a Christian but continues to live in sin, the result will be the same—even though his doctrinal theories may coincide withthe true teachings of the Word. Yes, disobedience to revealed truth, as well as incorrect doctrine, keeps one from the presence of God for all eternity.This is why Titus 1:16 states: They profess that they know God [lipservice]; but in works [daily living] they deny [God], being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate [counterfeit]. Therefore,the members of both groups remain on earth when Jesus calls His genuine children home in the twinkling of an eye. Then these leftovers from all denominations become members of the only religious body still in existence—the world church under the false prophet.

Looking at verse 4 once again, we notice that the woman or mother of the united world church is clothed in materials of purple and scarlet colour.This signifies rulership, for imperial Rome bedecked its leaders in such fashionable elegance. Strange, is it not, that ecclesiastical rulers have always desired temporal authority? They have sought to control the world as well as their parishioners.

Constantine, who became Emperor of Rome in 312 A.D. and eventually head ofthe church, is a perfect example of this power struggle which has continued to the present hour. Shades of Nicolaitanism! Remember the church of Ephesusin chapter 2. Question: Is such a goal scriptural? No! Jesus taught His disciples to pray, Thy kingdom come (Matthew 6:10). When that great event takes place in chapter 19, verse 16, then and only then, is a theocracy—the government of God—established upon earth. This position of leadership is reserved for the Lord Jesus Christ, and no mortal has any business taking His place. The throne belongs exclusively to the King of kings and Lord of lords.

to continue...

The colors and jewels of verse 4 picture a church composed of prelates orleaders elegantly dressed in purple and scarlet (the colors of the emperorsfrom the time of Constantine). They are also decked with gold and preciousstones and pearls (a picture of wealth) and use idols in worship (picturedby the golden cup in the woman’s hand). The cup is full of (1) abominationsand (2) filthiness.

Verse 5: And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THEGREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

Here we discover that the mother church has daughters. Her offspring aregroups who either rejected the true teachings of the founder of Christendomor who had a counterfeit experience with the Son of God. They went throughthe motions but were never truly converted. Among them are cultists,apostates, and unconverted professors of religion—including Baptists,Catholics, Lutherans, Pentecostals, Presbyterians, and those who weremembers of a host of denominations. They never really knew the Lord (seeMatthew 7:21-23). The fruit of daily living was spoiled. Now they are allunited in one homogenized ecumenical monstrosity—the counterfeit churchunder the leadership of the false prophet. However, the true believers frommany denominations are already on the glory side and were evacuated at theRapture (see Revelation 4:1).

Friend, at the Judgment Day, no church—not even your church—will be thefinal standard of truth. Neither will tradition hold sway at the judgmentbar of God. The only and absolute authority of truth, faith, and religiouspractice is God’s Holy Word (see 2 Timothy 3:16)! This is why the Lord Jesushimself said in Mark 7:7 and 13, Howbeit in vain do they worship me,teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. Making the word of God ofnone effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered.

Verse 6: And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and withthe blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with greatadmiration.

As John watches all the cunning antics of persecution this woman used anduses, he [wonders] with great admiration. This does not mean he admires theone who has so mercilessly destroyed so many. Instead, the original Greek isthat John "wonders with a great wonder." He is mystified.

Verse 7: And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I willtell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her,which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

The explanation begins in the next verse.

Verse 8: The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out ofthe bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earthshall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from thefoundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not,and yet is.

The angel continues unfolding the mystery of the beast in verses 8 through17. Then, in verse 18, the identity of the woman is revealed. Concerning thebeast, the angel declares, The beast that thou sawest was [past tense], andis not [present tense]; and shall ascend [future tense] out of thebottomless pit. This is the same beast found in verse 3 and also in chapter13, verse 1. The reason the beast was, and is not and shall ascend out ofthe bottomless pit, and go into perdition is that, as mentioned during ourstudy of chapter 13, verse 3, he is more than likely assassinated during theTribulation hour—and thus, is not. Then Satan, the great imitator,resurrects him and enters the body of this human for the final forty-twomonths of the Tribulation.

This explanation fulfills the statement, and yet is (verse 8). While he isdeceased, the beast is in the place of departed evil spirits—the bottomlesspit. At the time of his resurrection, he ascends out of this pit, only toeventually go back into perdition at the conclusion of his reign when Christcomes (at the Battle of Armageddon) and casts him into the lake of fire(chapter 19, verse 20). Verse 8 also tells us that those persons whose names[are] not written in the book of life, are emotionally stirred as they seethe beast that was [alive], and is not [because of his assassination] andyet is [because of his resurrection] ruling again.

Verse 9: And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are sevenmountains, on which the woman sitteth.

This is a tremendous text. It locates, geographically, the final world powerblock and headquarters for the world church as well. Historically speaking,Rome is the only city situated on seven hills. The names of her seven peaksare (1) Aventine, (2) Caehan, (3) Capitohine, (4) Esquihine, (5) Palatine,(6) Quimnal, and (7) Viminal. There is no disputing the fact. The worldchurch, sitting on these seven hills, heading up scores of denominations,rides to power on the back of the ten horned western federation of nations.

Verse 10: And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and theother is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

As John receives this vision of the seven kings, five have already fallen.They were (1) Julius Caesar, (2) Tiberius, (3) Caligula, (4) Claudius, and(5) Nero. Number 6—Domitian—is, at the time John receives this revelation,alive and on the throne. Number 7 is yet to come. He, of course, is theAntichrist whose reign will last briefly, or a short space.

Verse 11: And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and isof the seven, and goeth into perdition.

This verse is a thought twister, but easily understood when one considers itcarefully. Who is king number eight if there are only seven kings in thefirst place? Number eight is number seven resurrected! And the beast thatwas [before his assassination], and is not [because of his untimely death],even he is [because of his resurrection] the eighth. He is of the sevenbecause Satan, who incarnated his body while dead, also motivated the otherseven. As further proof that number eight is the resurrected Antichrist(number seven), we are again told that he will eventually go into perdition.This statement is also made concerning number seven in verse 8 as well as inour text—verse 11. King number seven and king number eight are one and thesame.

Verse 12: And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which havereceived no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with thebeast.

The ten horns have not become quite familiar to us. They may soon controlthe world. Communism, as we have learned, is not the final power block ofhistory. Rather, this ten toed western alliance is. The power of thesenations, however, will be for one hour, or for but a brief moment of time.

Verse 13: These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength untothe beast.

The final ten-nation western federation—after the Antichrist ousts three ofthe original members and replaces them—becomes so unified that everythingthey possess, economically and militarily, is placed under the control ofthis world leader (see Daniel 7:8, 24).

Verse 14: These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcomethem: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with himare called, and chosen, and faithful.

This verse is fulfilled in chapter 19, verses 11 through 16, when the world’sarmies gather together against the Lord and His anointed as pictured inPsalm 2:2: The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers takecounsel together, against the Lord, and against his anointed. The Lamb(Christ) is the Lord of lords, and King of kings. The called, chosen, andfaithful who accompany Him are the armies of heaven (chapter 19, verse 14)composed of the believers (the true Church) who were raptured out of theworld in chapter 4, verse 1, and who then waited in heaven seven years toreturn with the Bridegroom.

Verse 15: And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where thewhore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

As explained in our discussion of verse 1, the woman sitting upon manywaters is the world church who exercises religious control over mankindinternationally.

Verse 16: And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shallhate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat herflesh, and burn her with fire.

The Antichrist eventually betrays his religious followers. They bowed andscraped to his image, but now he no longer wants to share the limelight andglory with them. Thus, the individual leaders of the countries in the tennation confederacy turn against the world church. They hate her, strip herof all possessions (the gold, precious stones, and pearls of verse 4), anddestroy her by burning her remains to the ground. Who places such a plan ofaction in the hearts of these rulers? None other than God Almighty!

Verse 17: For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree,and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall befulfilled.

Imagine, God does it all! This portion of Scripture emphasizes the futilityof politics. Despite the methods and manipulations of man, God’s plan alwayscomes to pass. He sets up and knocks down world rulers at will (see Psalm75:7). They are but pawns in the game of life (see Proverbs 21:1). God’swill prevails regardless of what humans attempt to do. Christian, get soulssaved! This is your God-given goal. Let the world spend time on temporalissues. The cause of Christ is eternal!

Verse 18: And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reignethover the kings of the earth.

This great end time city is located within the Common Market nations andproves that the political and religious power brokers exist togethersimultaneously. Since the world church forms at the time when ten westernnations unite—and both the European Economic Community (now the EuropeanUnion) and World Council of Churches began unity proceedings in 1948


Bronzesnake

Bronzesnake,

All that copy/paste material which you posted above comes from one of the "many" false prophets which Jeremiah speaks about  in chapter 23.  They are teachings which fictitious moves are made of.  I've been watching quite a few of them this week, it being Halloween and all.  :)


"Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you", the Lord says, "they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the Lord.

They say still unto them that despose, The Lord hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you.
I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied.
But if they had stood in my counsel, and had caused my people to hear my words, then they should have turned them from their evil way, and from the evil of their doings.

I have heard what the prophets said, that prophesy lies in my name, saying, I have dreamed, I have dreamed.
Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams, saith the Lord, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this people at all, saith the Lord."

I have seen so many different attempts to interpret the book of Revelations. Some point at one specific denomination or another. Some point at one specific nation or another. Each time a major war occurs their are some people that come out saying this is it, this is the start of Armeggedon.

Everyone seems to have their own ideas based on their understanding of the world around us as we understand it today. These ideas keep changing as the world changes.

I want to make a major point here:

Eph 6:12  For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Eph 6:13  Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.


Next I want to point out that there are only two churches. I am not talking denominations here but churches. There is the church that is comprised of those that are with God. The other church is comprised with those that are with Satan.
Some say I don't believe in Satan or I don't follow Satan. I go with the Bible on this:

Mat 12:30  He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.


Matthew 24 tells us quite plainly what to look for and what to avoid.



Mar 13:32  But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
Mar 13:33  Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.

I rather find the book of Revelation easy to interpret, seeing that the things prophesied there have already happened with exception to "the tribulation" and "the coming of the Lord.

Revelation, like Daniel, presents the condition of God's people at the end of the age, prior to Christ's return.  Both the prophet Daniel, and John the Revelator were given a vision of the mighty nation in which they are dwelling.  John calls it "Babylon" and Daniel calls it "the little horn".

Both present startling details about how God's people in that nation turn from Jesus Christ, and begin to worship "the beast".
That worship is called "the abomination which makes that nation desolate".

And were this generation not blinded, they'd be able to clearly see that that nation is our own "America".

"..because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved, for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:  That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." 11Thes.2:10-12

Paul says in verse 13 of that chapter, "God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and "belief of the truth".

 FayeC quote...

 Do you honestly believe that posting those verses backs up false doctrine Faye?

 FayeC..

Here is a classic example of how you come to such false conclusions.
 You have composed your own scriptures. You add your own words in order to make the scriptures line up with what you believe in, and not what God is actually saying.


 That's rather vague Faye. Please give verses and explain when and where these events happened.


 Please show me any scripture which leads you to believe that Babylon and/or little horn is America.
 The scriptures


 Here you go again Faye. You speak as though America is specifically named in the scriptures. If you point me to the scripture which says..."the abomination which makes that nation desolate" I will never doubt you again...publicly.

 The actual verse says...

 Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

 Faye, how can "America" stand in the holy place?
This verse is in reference to satan standing in the Holy Temple and claiming to be God. If you read the following verses, Jesus warns us not to believe this "god" because he is a liar, and a false prophet. The entire chapter warns us that satan is coming to earth. He will poses a man's body and at some point he will enter the Temple and claim to be God. Jesus tells us how to recognize the true second coming. Jesus said, that when He returns there will be a flash of lightening across the entire universe. This will not occur at the time of satan's false, brief reign. This is just one way to expose the liar.


  Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.  


 Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.  


 Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.  


 Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.  


 Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)  


 Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:  


 Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:  


 Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.  


 Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!  


 Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:  


 Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.  


 Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.  


 Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here [is] Christ, or there; believe [it] not.  


 Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.  


 Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.  


 Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, [he is] in the secret chambers; believe [it] not.  


 Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

 If you still believe the little horn is America, I will provide scriptures which show that belief to be a mistake.

Bronzesnake

 Hello my friend.

 You make a valid point. However, I would also point out that God expects us to read and understand His word. We can't just throw up our arms and say "it's to hard" and give up.

 This really hi-lights the fact that we must take His word literally and not add or assume. Once we do this, we will never fully get it 100% to the point where we all agree, but at least we will be in a very good position to debate the "small details", and get as close to His Truth as possible.

 An excellent way to get to the truth is to not get stuck on a single verse or scripture, and not to come to scriptures with our pre-conceived ideas and notions of what we want the Bible to say,  (as I'm sure you know) - we can cross reference and corroborate many scriptures with each other.

 Good to have you back my friend.

 Bronzesnake

Amen. I did not mean to indicate anything other than that. I meant to direct my statement at those that take bits and pieces of Revelations, ignoring the rest of the scriptures and/or placing things they know of the physical world around them (which changes daily) into the meanings of a very few verses.

Pastor Roger and Bronzesnake,

AMEN BROTHERS!!

You've both given me more beautiful material to study. I say beautiful, yet Revelation contains judgement and the horrible end for many, including satan. The beautiful portion is the future for those who have placed their faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour. Revelation is the most controversial and misunderstood Book of the Holy Bible. I simply give thanks that we can study it and know during our study that we already belong to Jesus. We will not face HIS Wrath or HIS Sword, rather HIS Love and Care. The minions of darkness and evil will most certainly face HIS Righteous Wrath. Revelation is a reminder of urgency to share the Gospel of the Grace of God, shout it from the rooftops, and let JESUS be a Light in us for a dark and dying world.

The Great White Throne Judgement will be a place of dread and fear. Christians won't be there.

Christians will face the Bema Judgement where their works will be judged for rewards. There is no condemnation for those in Jesus Christ, and there is no condemnation at the Bema Judgement. There is no dread and fear at this judgement. Now and then, we are left with something very simple, but beautiful and precious beyond description:


Love In Christ,
Tom

blackeyedpeas,


I see there is something that we don't agree on.


Rev 20:11  And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12  And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13  And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14  And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15  And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


Here it tells us that all are judge at the "great white throne" as the book of life is opened there. Those saved by grace have their names written in the book of life.

Pastor Roger,

I think that I understand your disagreement. I tried to do far too much this week, and I neglected some details that would have clarified what I meant to say. My health is not good enough to do a detailed study on this right now. I'm positive that we both agree that there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. What judgement we face will not be for the purpose of condemnation, rather for the purpose of rewards. Maybe we agree and maybe we don't on what I meant to say. Regardless, we are brothers in Christ, so I'll not contend with you. I believe firmly in more than one judgement and more than one resurrection in the end times. I'm almost sure that some of our disagreement is not disagreement at all. I really think it is my lack of details and poor choice of words.

The Saints in Christ will be judged at the beginning of the 1,000 year rule and reign of Jesus Christ. However, it will not be for the purpose of condemnation because we are already in Christ. I also believe in the Rapture of the Church which is the BODY OF CHRIST prior to the Tribulation Period, but please - I don't wish to contend over the timing of the Rapture. See 2 Corinthians 5:8 - I am confident that if I die today, I will be absent from the body and present with the Lord. If I have died before Christ comes for His Church, I'm confident that my body will be resurrected and changed. If I am alive when Christ comes for His Church, I'm confident that I will be caught up with my brothers and sisters to meet Jesus in the air.

The final judgement of the wicked will be at the close of the 1,000 year rule and reign of Jesus Christ. This judgement will be final and will most certainly involve condemnation. However, hosts will experience the wrath and sword of God long before this day. I would simply say again with thanks giving that there is no condemnation  for those who are in Christ. Brother, you and I will not face this condemnatory judgement.

2 Corinthians 5:8  We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

1 Corinthians 15:50  Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1 Corinthians 15:51  Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1 Corinthians 15:52  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1 Corinthians 15:53  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1 Corinthians 15:54  So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1 Corinthians 15:55  O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
1 Corinthians 15:56  The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
1 Corinthians 15:57  But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Revelation 20:5  But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Revelation 20:6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Brother, maybe this clears up any disagreement. Regardless, I apologize for leaving out details and causing confusion. I will try to make up for my lack of details when I feel just a little bit better, so please be patient.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Pastor Roger...

 Thanks for clarifying brother.

 BEP. I pray that your health will improve, and I ask all who read this to add their prayers with my own, so that as a group, we may strengthen our resolve, and get BEP some results.

 Thanks for the kind, and encouraging words Tom.

Bronzesnake

Bronzesnake,

Brother, I sincerely appreciate the prayers of all of you. I am happy but ill. I pray for the strength to make posts that are clear and correct, but I know that I fail sometimes. As a prayer request, the strength to clearly glorify Jesus is what I would ask for.

Love In Christ,
Tom

blackeyedpeas,

I understand the health problem and how it can affect a person. I am suffering from the Gulf War Illness. A problem that has hit many Gulf War Veterans. There are times that I cannot think straight, remember things, and sometimes cannot get out of bed because of it. Not complaining here just saying that I do understand. I join in prayers with Bronzesnake for your health and well being and in your request.

Thank you for clarifying your statement. I didn't mean to sound contentious either. I feel that such things are minor details anyway being that the most important is that we will not be subjected to the condemnation of hell by having our name in the Book of Life through the Grace of God through Jesus Christ.

May God bless you both.

Pastor Roger,

It's a comfort to know that we can pray for each other, and I know that God loves to hear our prayers. Praying for each other is part of our joy of being brothers and sisters in Christ.

Brother, I simply want to say again that I give thanks for the men and women who serve our country. I have a soft spot in my heart for those who put their lives on the line in service to others. It will be my joy to remember you in prayer.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Yes Bronzesnake, I certainly do believe those scriptures are talking about  "false prophets" whom Christians are believing and following today.

By "false prophets" I mean all those who teach a "pre" tribulation rapture.........There are no scriptures which even hint at such a thing.  

By "false prophets" I mean all those who refer to "the beast" as "Antichrist".  when in fact there are no scriptures to support that.  The "beast" in Rev.13 is called "son of perdition" and "man of sin", but NOT Antichrist.

By "false prophets" I mean those who teach the fable about how Antichrist will go into a rebuilt temple in Jeruselam, claiming to be God.  And how that he will stop the bloody animal sacrifices which the Jews will have instituted at that time.   That's rubbish...No scriptures exist to support that doctrine.

And finally, they teach that this imaginary Antichrist will suffer a mortal head wound, then come back to life.

WOW, how they came up with that interpretation is beyond me, seeing that  "heads" in Rev.17 mean "mountains".
So then, when John said,  "I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death", what he saw was that "one of the mountains/or countinents of people within Babylon were a wounded people.


In addition, they  teach the "myth" that God's chosen people are Arab "Jews" who follow the Torah....Then they build all end-time scriptures around THEM, when in fact there is not a solitary scripture in Revelation which mentions today's so-called "Jews".

In fact, all end-time scriptures relate to the sons of "Jacob"; those who followed Jesus Christ and are today "Christians".
 
Today's so-called Prophecy "experts" are MASTERS at twisting the scriptures, and for no other reason than  to prop up their false "pre" trib rapture doctrine.

"They cause my people to ere", God says of them in Jer.

They, and the ones who believe and follow them are those whom  Timothy is  talking about when he wrote, "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine: but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears:  And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto "fables."  11Tim.4:3-4

Now you asked me how I come to the conclusion that "Babylon", and Daniel's "little horn" are America.

I came to that conclusion because both the little horn and Babylon are described in like manner in Daniel and in Revelation. And because the things written about them in those two books resemble the things which have taken place in America.  Thus a combination of the scriptures in Dan.8 through 12, and particularly chapters 13, 17, and 18 of Revelation, leaves me to believe that those scriptures are talking about America.

As well, I believe that Ezekiel 38 depicts America.
In that chapter we see all nations; Europeans, Asians, Africans; ALL OF THEM Ezekiel says, flowing into it, just as peoples from all nations have flowed and are flowing into America.

Most importantly, I belive America is the same Babylon/little horn which Paul is referring to in 11Thes.2 when he describes the "falling away" from Christ.
After all, which other nation but America could Paul have been talking about in this verse?:
It surely cannot be the nation of Israel and the Jews, because Jews never believed on Christ to fall away from him in the first place!

"Let no man deceive you by any means", 11Thes.2:3 says,  "for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first....."  

That "falling away" commenced in America on June 25th, 1962 when prayer and the worship of Christ was removed from our public schools.

That date (June 25,1962) is the date which Daniel was referring to when he wrote  in ch.9:26-27,
"And after threescore and two weeks (after 62) shall Messiah be cut off.....and in the midst of the week (in the midst of the year) he (the little horn) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease."

Let's continue with the verse in 11Thes.2:3
"and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition".

Now let's continue to read  Daniel 9:26 which corresponds to 11Thes.2:3:
"and the people of the prince that shall come...."

Ah!, so it's NOT "Satan" that comes after the falling away, as today's false prophets would have us believe, but rather the "people" of Satan!

Thus, the "beast" of Rev.13 is not an "individual" man, but rather a "type" or "race" of man!  (hint) one of the mountains/countinents.

Well, who could "the beast"; or that race of "man"  be in Rev.13?!
Let's see how John describes him in that chapter.

John says, "he was an emotionally wounded man".  (I say "emotionally" wounded because the scriptures say, he was wounded, but "did live".  Thus he was never mortally wounded as the false prophets suggest.)

He says that an "image" was made of that race/man.... (the image; or portrayal of that of a wounded race, no less.)

Then all of Babylon received and accepted the image of that race of man, then used their minds and right hand to exalt him.
Daniel uses the word "exalt" several times when discribing him.

Finally, (because it's getting late, and I'm sleepy) the Apostle Paul speaks of him in that 11Thes 2 chapter when he wrote:
"the son of perdition; who opposeth and exalteth himself above all  that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

What that verse means is that, "that race of man called the son of perdition will sit in (among) God's people, opposing them, and exalting himself above them, and above all others,...... and knowing within himself that he is their God."

Finally I must quote what the Apostle Paul said in Romans 1 as he describes the condition of God's people at the end of the age, and of whom I believe are present day Americans.

He says, "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man.....and worshipped and served the creature (the beast) more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever.  Amen"

















 

 

 

 

FayeC....

 I don't know how you came to such a warped misinterpretation of the scriptures. You are utterly and completely confused my friend.

 Your following statements are just just an example of many, many others instances which point out just how lost you are in regards to the content and truth of the scriptures...

   

 This would be semi-legitimate had you have simply disagreed with a pre-trib rapture - as the timing of the rapture is hotly disputed among Christians - but to state "There are no scriptures which even hint at such a thing" really shows the level of scriptural ignorance that causes your understanding of the Bible to be so far off base.


 Do you believe that satan exists Faye? There would be no sin or lies or evil or Antichrist without satan. Because of satan, we are sinners, but he is sin - we are liars, but he is lies - we cane be evil, but he is evil - some of us are antichrists, but he is "the antichrist" This isn't rocket science Faye.


You mean Jerusalem?
So "No scriptures exist to support that doctrine" huh?

2Th 2:4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.  

 


 Rev 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

 I guess "the beast" is America right?

Rev 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.


Rev 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by [the means of] those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

 Explain how America will perform miracles Faye - and only in the sight of the beast (America?) So, America can only perform miracles in the sight of...America?

 See how confused your interpretations are Faye?

 There's no point debating with you further FayeC - it's apparent that you are stubbornly trapped in your dream world and not open the the truth.

 Bronzesnake.

 

FayC,

I'm being nice by saying start over and learn your ABCs.

Moderator

I wonder what was the speculation as to what the mark was before electronics?

"Most importantly, I belive America is the same Babylon/little horn which Paul is referring to in 11Thes.2 when he describes the "falling away" from Christ.
After all, which other nation but America could Paul have been talking about in this verse?:
It surely cannot be the nation of Israel and the Jews, because Jews never believed on Christ to fall away from him in the first place!"


Pauls was refering to a spiritual falling away within the ecclessia, (church), not a secular nation falling away. God's word covers things spiritual not natural.

The falling away happened with the apostasy and rise to secular and spiritual power of the church at Rome during the crumbling of imperial Rome.

















 

Not sure about that....but I remember as a child when barcodes became fashionable, many thought we would be forced to get a tattoo of a barcode on the hand.

Its really not that far of a stretch to see how implanted chip technology could used in this fashion.   Especially since the purpose of current technology is geared for cashless transactions and ID.  

Grace and Peace!

Prior to that I remember that it was considered a tattoed number not unlike what was placed on prisoners in the death camps of Nazi Germany. Some believed it would consist of triple 6's with additional numbers.

I do find it interesting that the greek used to describe MARK in the passage of Revelation also means stake/sharpen to a point etc.

charax
khar'-ax
From “charasso” (to sharpen to a point; akin to G1125 through the idea of scratching); a stake, that is, (by implication) a palisade or rampart (millitary mound for circumvallation in a siege): - trench.

Stake in in the hand or forehead?  This is how chip implants would be administered....with a needle!

2nd Timothy,

Brother, that's very interesting. They already have a chip like that used to identify pets. I understand it's about the size of a grain of rice and can be read with a scanner of some sort. I think they place it in the neck of the animal.

So, the technology is already here.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Bronzesnake,

I've tried to make myself as clear as I possible can, but it appears you still don't get it.

Again, those things spoken of in 11Thes.2 happened to the nation where the "falling away from Christ" occured.  And as I explained before, that nation has to be America.  And the "falling away" had to have commenced after America cut off Christ and removed prayer from our nation's schools.

What does 11Thes.2:3 say will happen after the falling away?
It says, "the man of sin; the son of perdition (the beast) will be revealed.

And as I explained before, "the beast" is a race of "man".

Thus, after America took away school prayer in 62, that race of "man" called "the beast" in Rev.13 "revealed" himself.  In other words, "he made known his intentions".

Dan.12:11 says, "And from the time that the daily sacrifice (daily prayer) shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate "set up", there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days."

I was meditating on that scripture awhile back, and just out of curosity I counted 1,290 days forward from June 25,1962, (the day that America banned school prayers) and the date fell on January 6,1966, (the day of Epiphany).  Interesting eh?

So then, to clear up any misunderstanding you may have, I'm saying that:

1.  "The beast" with the number 666 is "a race", NOT an individual.

2.  It is "America" which "set up" the beast, and causes all of us to worship him.  (Keep in mind that Daniel discribes how that the beast is "exalted").  Thus Rev.13 is saying that "America" causes ALL to "exalt" him.

Pay close attention to what Paul is saying in Thes.2:4:

(the son of perdition) "Who "opposeth" and "exalteth" himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God".

Quiet simply, that scripture is saying that "the beast is sitting in America, (among) God's people, (those that are "called by God's name").  and that he is opposing and exalting himself above God's people, as well as all men, and knowing within himself that he (his race) is America's God.

The "offspring" of America's Founding Fathers have a lot to repent of today, for our generation is truly honoring one race of man above ourselves and above all others in our society. Whereas  today he is "the head and not the tail"
And as the result, that race has come to be worshipped more than Christ.

America sets aside a full month out of the year to honor his history.

Our children are required to celebrate him in our schools, where once Christ was celebrated.

America's workplace must celebrate and show him favortism as well, and in many instances caucasians are required to attend "sensitivity" classes to appease him.

He is celebrated in our homes and in our churches.
White congregations are frequently holding "reconciliation" services to honor him.

They corrupt our daughters, and we hold our tongues.

Our government honors him.
Our universities honor him.

I could say more, but I'm sure that by now you get the picture.

If not, to help you out here's some verses from Daniel which speak of America/God's people and the end-time "beast".

Dan.8
8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, (America)which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

11:21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person to whom they shall not give the honor of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.

23 And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people.

24 He shall enter peaceably even upon the fattest places of the province; and he shall do that which his fathers have not done, nor his faathers' fathers; she shall scatter among them the prey, and spoil, and riches, yea, and he shall forcast his devices against the strong holds, even for a time.

26 Yea, they that feed of the portion of his meat shall destroy him, and his army shall overflow and many shall fall down slain.  (hint Civil War)

36 And the king shall do according to his will, and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper until the indignation be accomplished.

37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god; for he shall magnify himself above all.

8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences shall stand up.

24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power; and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practice, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many.

9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come, shall destroy the city and the sanctuary: and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

11:14 And in those times there shall many stand up against the king of the south: also the robbers of thy people shall exalt themselves to establish the vision. (Civil Rights movement)

15 So the king of the north shall come, and shall cast up a mount, and take the most fenced cities: and the arms of the south shall not withstand, neither his chosen people, neither shall thre be any strength to withstand.

17 He shall also set his face to enter with the strength of his whole kingdom, and upright ones with him; thus shall he do: and he shall give him the daughter of women, corrupting her: but she shall not stand on his side, neither be for him.

31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

12:7 And when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.



























 

source: http://www.hallindseyoracle.com/

Where is America in Bible Prophecy?
One of the questions I am asked the most often in regard to the outline of Scripture for the last days is the question; "Where is America in Bible Prophecy?

This is a difficult question, mostly because it has such a difficult answer. I love my country, and I'd love to find references to it in the last days. But it isn't there. And that seems to be quite a mystery, given that we are at the moment the most powerful nation on earth, by every conceivable measure.

There are some who try and find America in Scripture. I'll outline a few of these views for you.

America, the wide and smooth?

Some point to Isaiah 18, which speaks of a people "tall and smooth" who are "feared far and wide." The passage says these people are "a powerful nation whose land the rivers divide" that will one day bring gifts to the Messiah when He reigns from Mount Zion.

Those who hold this view, point to the fact the United States is divided by the Mississippi, to America's power and say we are the people "feared far and wide" of whom Isaiah was speaking. But this view only works if you ignore the first verse of Chapter 18. It clearly identifies the powerful nation divided by a river as Cush, or Ethiopia. At the time of Isaiah, Ethiopia was part of the Egyptian empire and the river referred to is without doubt the Nile.

Tarshing America

Another view says that America is identified by the prophet Ezekiel in Ezekiel 38:13. Ezekiel speaks of the "merchants of Tarshish and all the young lions thereof" who launch a diplomatic protest at the time of the Gog-Magog invasion of Israel. Some point to the fact that Tarshish was the westernmost trading and seafaring nation of the ancient world. From there, Tarshish becomes Britain. After all, Britain is the westernmost point on the Continent. And the symbol of Britain is a lion. Consequently, "all the young lions thereof" become the former British colonies, like Australia, Canada and, of course, the United States. Therefore, ipso facto, the merchants of Tarshish and all the young lions thereof must be referring to America.

But this doesn't work, either. First and foremost, nobody can pinpoint with any degree of accuracy the location of Tarshish. The only thing we are sure of is that it isn't Britain. The most recent archeological evidence puts ancient Tarshish in Spain, which, while close, doesn't quite win the cigar.

The eagle has landed

Another popular candidate for a biblical America is found in Revelation 12:13-17. In this exercise in applied imagination, we can find America, and she is busily engaged in an heroic effort to save Israel. If you accept the interpretation that includes America, that is.

This passage states that during the Tribulation, God will provide a means of escape for the Jewish remnant in Israel. It says they will be carried into the wilderness on the "wings of a great eagle." Misinterpreting this verse makes it possible to have the United States supplying a military airlift of Israelis to safety -- on the "wings of an eagle." You can make this work only by ignoring the fact that Scripture interprets Scripture. And the Scripture already identifies who has the wings of an eagle.

In Deuteronomy 32:11, God identifies the bearer of Israel on eagles' wings. "As an eagle stirreth up her nest, fluttereth over her young, spreadeth abroad on her wings, taketh them, and beareth them on her wings, So the Lord alone did lead him [Israel] and there was no strange god with him." It is a nice picture, and in keeping with our own self-image, to see America as Israel's savior during the Tribulation. But it is clearly incorrect.

Babylon, N.Y.

Probably the most widely accepted explanation of America in Bible prophecy uses Revelation Chapter 18 to show that the United States is really "Babylon the Great, Mother of Harlots."

The reason this symbol is the most widely accepted symbol of the United States is because the shoe seems to fit. Consider the evidence offered in support of this view, because it is compelling. Revelation 18:2 opens with the angelic declaration that "Babylon the Great is fallen."

Verse 3 describes Babylon the great thusly: "all the nations of the earth have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornications with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies." This doesn't seem to be much of a reach, on first glance.

America has sunk to moral depths scarcely imaginable a generation ago. We kill babies in the womb when they are socially inconvenient. The nuclear family is all but extinct. Morals are situational, if they are relevant at all. We choose as entertainment stories about adultery, fornication, violence and virtually every form of evil.

We are the world's leading exporters of filth and pornography, not to mention being the world's largest arms dealer and exporter of destruction and mayhem. Politically, we have just emerged from one of the most shameful and immoral presidential campaign in living memory.

Not America's vision

The description goes on, referencing the fact she "sits as a queen and no widow." One could argue the U.S. sits as a queen (it's probably more politically correct than a king, anyway) and no widow, as America has seen no war on her shores in living memory. Since the Apostle John also refers to the fact that "ships and sailors and as many as trade by sea" will see the city burning, this view makes New York City Babylon the Great.

The original Babylon still stands, in Iraq, but nowhere near the sea. And, just outside New York City is the city of Babylon, N.Y.! So, there you have it! And it all seems to make sense, really. Provided you are looking at prophecy as if it were given from the perspective of Washington. But it isn't.

In Bible prophecy everything orients from Israel. John's vision of the apocalypse is from the perspective of Israel, during the time of Jacob's trouble, not America's. But the most conclusive reason is given in Revelation 17:18.

John says Mystery Babylon is really a woman -- that great harlot who will reign over the cities from earth. But John wrote that the great city was clearly Rome, and that is the city that will reign over the earth in the last days.

I can imagine the heaps of criticism this column will engender.

America faces threats from mad bombers, mad dictators, a unified Russian-Chinese military adversary and a host of other threats. Who wants to be the one to say that, biblically speaking, there is no reason to think one of them isn't going to happen? But America is not a major player in the last days -- she hasn't even a bit part.

I personally believe that one explanation could be that our country and its leadership will be so decimated following the Rapture that we will simply cease to be a major influence overnight.

I prefer that over the alternative.  
********************************************

I think your hypothesis is creative at best.

But, I won't criticize your ideas.  I'll simply state another interpretation of the book of Revelations.  The one which I believe to be consistent with the intent of it's author.

The natural tendency of people who read this book is to assume that its providing an account of what is still to transpire in our own future.  And so its been understood, down through the ages.  The only problem though is that every generation has assumed that the book is referring to what will happen in its own time.  And so far, of course, every generation has been wrong.  Even though each generation thinks that surely it will be the one.

Our own generation is no exception.  The book of Revelation was used this way by David Koresh and the Branch Davidians, by Marshall Applewhite and Heavens Gate, by most evangelical preachers that you can hear by turning on your TV who talk about the book of revelation, and by scores of serious interpreters of prophesy whose books line the shelves of most Christian bookstores, including second and third editions when the predictions of the first editions have had been modified in light of their failure to come true.

Let's look at some of the imagery in the book.

Chapter 17 Verse 5: And on her forehead a name was written, "MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF THE PROSTITUTES AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH."
Chapter 17 Verse 6: I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus.
Chapter 17 Verse 9: The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman is seated
Chapter 17 Verse 18: The woman whom you saw is the great city, which reigns over the kings of the earth

Who then is this great whore?  Who has committed fornication with all the kings of the earth, is drunk with the blood of the martyrs, bedecked with fine clothes and jewelry?

Which city ruled the world at the end of the 1st century when this book was written?  A city that had persecuted the Christians, leading the flow of their blood?  A city, in fact, that was known throughout antiquity to have been built on the seven hills?  The city of Rome.  Any ancient reader would have recognized this imagery.  Rome, otherwise known as Babylon in the scripture because in the Hebrew bible the enemy of the people of God was the city of Babylon, which destroyed Jerusalem in the 6th century BC and destroyed the first temple.  So Babylon became a codename for the enemy of God.  And now, it’s applied here to the city of Rome, which is a modern Babylon.

What about the great enemy of God, the antichrist?

Chapter 13 Verse 18 : This calls for wisdom: let anyone with understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a person. It’s the number six hundred and sixty-six.

Who was the first emperor of Rome to persecute Christians?  It was the emperor Nero.
When you spell the name Caesar Nero in Hebrew letters and add up the letters it adds up to 666.  According to texts from the 1st and 2nd centuries he was believes, in some Jewish circles, to be about to come back from the dead to again rule Rome and persecute the people of god.

Where did this method for transliterating the letters to numbers?

Gematria is a system for calculating the numerical equivalence of letters, words, and phrases. This system is used for the purpose of gaining insight into interrelating concepts.

This may not be as exciting believing that the antichrist is someone living in our own day, or is someone who is soon to come.  Over the past 50 years we have had devoted Christian authors arguing that 666 must refer to:
Hitler
Mussolini
Henry Kissinger
Saddam Hussein
And even Ronald Wilson Reagan (whose name each has 6 letters in them)

But!!  If we are interested in known what the author of Revelations himself meant, it makes sense to think that he is talking about something going on in his own world and time.

What do you think of this?

What do I think?  I think these discussions are fascinating and I hope I have not just offended anyone.  :)

Who or “what” Babylon is, is not the question.  The point I was trying to make is that Babylon is destroyed by the very beast she is “riding” (the 10 horns on the beast to be exact.)  It then does not make sense that she is this beast with the 7 heads and 10 horns and yet is destroyed by the 10 horns of the 7 headed beast.  Now, the language is, of course, symbolic.  However the ‘woman’ is added to the picture later on in Chap 17.  She was not there to begin with.  She is that ‘great city’ which reigns over the kings (kingdoms) of the earth.  In other words she is a, if not the, dominant global superpower of her time.  She is shown riding the beast which symbolizes her dominion over the beast kingdoms until her destruction.  Her affluence is shown in Chapter 18 and we see that she is the dominant economic superpower of the time.  She is not the same as the beast which destroys her.  The beast symbol in Revelation is layered as it represents the merger of the beast kingdoms of Daniel, which is where the seven heads come from.  They are the seven heads of the four separate beasts of Daniel.  These beasts of Daniel also represent kingdoms or empires or great nations.  The beast from which the little horn (or Anti-Christ) comes from is the fourth and terrible beast of Daniel which has the 10 horns (the same 10 horns in Revelation).  These four beasts are merged in Revelation into one 7 headed beast which represents an attempt at global unity.  Also, the beast represents an entity or demonic power which can be tied back to Revelation Chap 9 where we are told who the beast that was, is not, yet is and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit is.  He is the destroying angel   or the angel of perdition. He is the king of the pit.  Finally we can see the beast man, or the one who will claim dominion over the beast kingdom and will speak great things against The Almighty and the hosts of heaven.  He will exercise the power of the beast and of Satan and shall work miracles through the powers of devils and deceive many.  He is aptly named the son of perdition.  Now there is a lot more to this but I just wanted to show that the idea that the beast is the woman of Chapter 17 does not line up.  She is a separate entity.






















































 

Nobody has any thoughts?  Are my beliefs consistent with the majority of the people who are reading this thread?  It doesn't seem like it.  Just wondering if anyone thinks I'm a nut.  I'm intrigued by the historical Jesus.

 ???

  ???

I guess what I mean is "historical Jesus" in the context of "what did Jesus really say and do"?
And, obviously, we can learn this from the gospels (our "Q"uelle).

The prevailing theory in the study of the gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke is that Mark was the first gospel, Matthew and Luke are rewritten versions of Mark.  But there are many sayings in Matthew and in Luke that are NOT in Mark.  Furthermore, if you have had the opportunity to read the Gospel of Thomas you will find MANY MANY more Jesus sayings.

Whether or not you believe that these were actually Jesus sayings depends on what you think of the Gnostic Christians and the authenticity of the Gospel of Thomas.  Some of you may not believe the Gopsel of Thomas to be authentic, and I think that is a personal decision.  Either way, I think its fun to study.  Don't you?

Intrigued is a fair word I guess, however, I am bit more than intrigued.    Present day Jesus is pretty intriguing too, don't you think?   ;)

Grace and Peace!

Absolutely!

My biggest problem Coptic with your interpretation is that it does not account for what we read at the end of Revelation or the last Chapter of Daniel (in the KJV anyway).  It is the time of the resurrection, the great calling out of the saints (those that live and those that sleep), and ultimately the visible return of The Messiah at the battle of Armageddon.  Daniel specifically states that certain visions were for the time of the end, meaning the time of the return of The Ancient of Days in glory and the end of this world system.  Many of his visions were of the state of the world at that time and some of the things that would be happening leading up to that time.  Revelation in many ways is almost a restatement of some of Daniel’s visions and even elaborates on certain events in a little more detail.  So if Daniel’s visions were for the time of the end then Revelation would also be for the time of the end since it testifies of the same events which will transpire at that time.  The culmination of both Daniel’s and John’s visions is the return of The Messiah and the putting down of the one who will oppose Him at His return.  So unless you think this happened in the first century AD then how can you dismiss these prophecies as fulfilled?  If you do think it happened then you must show the historical record that proves that this event transpired already.

What does THAT mean?!!

You want me to conform to the majority view here, or beat it?!  Is that what you're saying?!

Well, no thanks.  I am my own woman, with my own views concerning end-time scriptures.  And the day I conform to the popular view is the day I cease to be my own person.

Anyway, I thought we were all adults here.

 

I'm not a bashful person. Had I meant that, I would have said exactly that. It means that you don't have a clue, and you should start over with the basics. Study your Bible, and you will get a clue.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Has anyone mentioned the RFID technology, gradually replacing the bar code(first used on chewing gum in 1974)?

It's a tiny chip being used currently for inventory - like Walmart has issued new marching order for suuppliers - use the imbedded inventory control, the RFID, or forfeit sales.

RFID theoretically could be used in products, but unlike the bar code, they track individual items, not categories of items.  They're infinite in number, and disposable.

They would allow surveillance by the things or items one always has with them(incl. clothes).

Speaking of RFID chips I saw a show on the history channel the other day. It was about surveillance technology and they had the RFID chips. The thing that scared me most is that there are already people using them. A man (probably some kind of designer for the chip) said, "I got chipped on (such and such date)". Then he took a scanner and waved it over is upper arm and it displayed his personnel ID number as he stated. With that doctors and whoever else has access can search it in there "secure" databases and get all of his medical info. amongst other things. Then they spoke of all the "wonderful" applications it could be used for in the future. This scares me very much and I honestly believe the mark of beast is in its youth.

"Mark" means the same thing as "image" in Rev.13.

"Mark" of the beast.
"Image" of the beast.

"Name" and "number" in verse 17 refers to the beast as well.

"Name" of the beast.
"Number" of his name.

"And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the "mark", or the "name" of the beast, or the "number" of his name."

So then we discover in that verse that it is "the beast" which is able to "buy and sell".

Quite the contrary:  I sometimes think I spend more time than I should in the study of Prophesy, and that I should instead study other parts of the Bible.  :)

ollie>>>>"Paul was talking about a spiritual falling away within the ecclessia, (church), not a secular nation falling away."

Then I must be imagioning scriptures which talk about "Babylon"; the mighty city which reigns over the kings of the earth, eh?

"The falling away happened at the Apostasy to secular and spiritual power of the church at Rome during the crumbling of imperial Rome."

WOW, I could have sworn that 11Thes.2 was talking about the generation which lived just prior to the 2nd coming of Christ!

"When John speaks of "the woman" in Revelation, he is referring  to "Israel" the Israelites; the son's of Jacob.

My question is; Why do today's prophets refer only to Judah (Jews) as God's chosen people?!, when clearly ALL the sons of Jacob were his chosen.

Didin't realize that there was so-called prophets in this day and age. I thought Israel had killed them all...lol. I've been watching this thread in the wings for a while and will continue to do so as this thread continues on and on, one thing however i keep noticing is that in the spirit of discussion and this happens in all of the posts, sometimes a word gets put in and misconstrued. You are correct that the woman in Revelation is the Nation of Israel or the remnant of Israel as most commonly known in the OT. We see that Babylon can be one of many things. Physical Babylon where the antichrist will reign for his short period of time and also Spiritual babylon which will be subject to the one world religion first and foremost then to strictly worship of the Beast (Antichrist) (any serious student of the Word knows the Beast is the Antichrist, and the False prophet is his right hand man or the person the antichrist uses in order to carry out his work. I think this is 2 parts of what's called the "un-holy' trinity. being satan, antichrist, and false prophet. Sad how satan has such pride that he thinks he can parade and make up his own trinity. In the end he loses. The good book says this. and as for the Trib. period. Those who are Born again believers won't have to worry about this period. only those left behind to see God's wrath. I gotta to pick up my father, so i'm outta here. God Bless.

OH YEA...Kalthazar...i said that about a prophecy timeline. In order to understand prophecy one needs to know where Israel fits in the timeline. I'm using the word timeline loosely to refer to a sequence of events in a particular order. According to Scripture we're coming close to the end of the church age being the time from the Ascension to the Rapture. We've seen these based on road signs posted along the way. I believe earlier somewhere in the Prophecy rooms that I laid out my sermon on the Road signs and why we should be on our knees looking up instead of standing up looking down at our thumbs. Anyway, i thoguht i'd just clear that up. LOL. By no means am I putting a time limit on the Rapture or Christ's return. some in the 1530's and the 1550's tried to say which date it was, and the same thing has happened over the next couple of centuries. I took their mistakes as a lesson that no one should even begin to try to say when Christ is coming. Completely contradicts Scripture, and that's not what I'm here to do...lol. I hop ethis clears it up.

God Bless

In His Service,
Joshua

PART 1
ollie & FayeC:

For your consideration:

Taken from the commentary "THESSALONIANS" by Pastor C.R.Stam. (Footnotes omited.)

Chapter II - II Thessalonians 2:1-3

FIRST THE DEPARTURE AN APPEAL TO THE FALTERING

"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,

"That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition."

II Thes. 2:1-3

LET NO MAN DECEIVE YOU BY ANY MEANS

The Apostle's appeal to the Thessalonian saints not to be "shaken," or “troubled," or "deceived. . . by any means," is based upon the truth of the Rapture.

It was “by" or on the basis of “the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together unto Him," that he begged them not to falter. This was their "blessed hope," and he besought them not to let any man take it from them either “by spirit" (i.e., the supposed gift of prophecy), or “by word" (i.e., argument) or “by letter as from us” (Ver. 2).

Of all the strong evidences in the Thessalonian epistles that the rapture of believers to be with Christ will precede the Tribulation, the opening verses of II Thes. 2 are certainly the strongest.

NOT ONE SCRIPTURE?

One Bible teacher has declared that "there is not one verse of Scripture whiche explicitly affirms the rapture of the Church before the Tribulation.

But why need there be? There is "not one verse of Scripture which explicitly affirms" that our Lord was baptized before His temptation by the devil, or that He was crowned with thorns before He was crucified, or that baptism with water is no longer included in God's program for believers, or that God is a Trinity. Yet there is abundant Scriptural proof for all these, and the brother referred to above accepts them all as the truth of the Word of God.

Some time ago one of the author's "post-trib." friends wrote to him:

"The great tribulation is not pleasant to anticipate -- this is a fact (Dan. 12:1; Matt. 24:21,22). But in the light of [a series of Scripture passages] I know by God's grace and strength I can endure the greatest torture or the most gruesome death. Perhaps, brother, I will be called upon one day to prove my word. God only knows. I can rest only in Him (II Tim. 1:7). Paul went through much, as did many first-century Christians. To those individuals, tortured and killed, the pain they suffered could not be any worse than the saints will suffer as individuals in the great tribulation. Praise God for our great and glorious hope, I Tim. 1:1."

How sad this is in view of the following three facts:

1. Paul, in speaking of the Rapture never says one word to prepare the saints for the horrors of the Tribulation. We may be certain that he would have done so if they were to endure its terrors before being caught up to be with Christ.

2. Our Lord, in speaking to His "kingdom" followers did say much to them about the coming Tribulation, but not one word about their being "caught up" to meet Him in the air.

3. Thus, the rapture of believers to be with Christ, is distinctively the hope of the Body of Christ, for which Paul repeatedly urges us to be "looking" and "waiting," encouraging one another in the anticipation of this “blessed hope" (Tit. 2:13).

But wait! There is indeed one blessed passage of Scripture which "explicitly affirms" that the Rapture will precede the Tribulation. It is II Thes. 2:3.

Our respect and admiration for the King James Version grows more profound each year. We believe that KJV stands head and shoulders above all other English translations, and perhaps above all other translations in any language. It is in the truest sense a faithful translation. Also, we believe that God has graciously preserved the Greek Scriptures for us in Textus Receptus, the Received Text of the New Testament, rightly called the Majority Text, the text upon which KJV is substantially based.

Yet here is a case where the KJV translators departed from Textus Receptus, for TR does not contain the words "a falling away" in II Thes. 2:3, but the words "the departure," Gr., hee apostasia. Thus the verse actually reads:

"Let no man deceive you by any means; for that day shall not come except the departure come first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition."

There is abundant evidence for this rendering, as we shall now proceed to prove.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

PART 2
APOSTASIA AND APOSTASY

First, our English word apostasy, is not an exact equivalent of the Greek apostasia. The English word apostasy means rebellion, or revolt, against a faith once embraced, but the Greek apostasia means departure, nothing more.

Actually the Greek noun apostasia occurs only once more in the New Testament, namely in Acts 21:21, where Paul is informed of the report that he has taught "all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses."

We suggest that even here the word "depart" would be a closer synonym to the rendering "forsake" than would the word "apostatize." To forsake is not exactly to revolt or rebel against, and this is what our English word apostasy means. Furthermore, in this case we are told that it was reported that Paul urged these Jews to "forsake," or "depart from" Moses, and surely Paul did not urge them to any revolt against Moses or his writings. He merely pointed out that now, by grace, they were free from the Law, that the Law had been fulfilled for them by Christ.

In any case, the Record does not say that Paul had taught the Jews who lived among the Gentiles to "forsake" Moses. It says only that the Jews in Judaea had been "informed" that this was the case. This rumor was probably an exaggeration of what he actually had done in teaching that the Law had now been fulfilled by Christ and that believers are delivered from its curse (Gal. 3:13).

But while the noun apostasia occurs only twice in the New Testament, the root verb from which the noun is derived occurs 15 times, and its meaning is easy to determine. We refer to the verb aphisteemi. So that there may be no mistake, we present here a list of every New Testament use of this verb.

Luke 2:37: "departed not from the temple."

Luke 4:13: "the devil…departed from Him."

Luke 8:13: "in time of temptation fall away."

Luke 13:27: "Depart from Me, all ye workers of iniquity."

Acts 5:37: "drew away much people after him."

Acts 5:38: "refrain from these men."

Acts 12:10: "the angel departed from him."

Acts 15:38: "who departed from them from Pamphilia."

Acts 19:9: "he departed from them."

Acts 22:29: "they departed from him."

II Cor. 12:8:"I besought the Lord... that it might depart from me."

I Tim. 4: 1: "some shall depart from the faith."

I Tim. 6:5: "from such withdraw thyself."

II Tim. 2:19: "depart from iniquity."

Heb. 3:12: "in departing from the living God."

First, the reader should observe carefully that in 11 out of these 15 occurrences the verb in question is rendered depart, departed, or departing, while in the other four close synonyms are used.

Further, only three out of the 15 are concerned with departure from the truth. And in all three it is clearly stated that the departure is "from the faith" (I Tim. 4:1), "from the living God" (Heb. 3:12), and from that which was "for a while believed" (Luke 8:13), leaving the meaning of the verb aphisteemi itself simply depart -- nothing more -- in all 15 occurrences.

In Luke 4:13 we read that the devil “departed' from Christ. In Acts 12:10 an angel "departs" from Peter. In Acts 15:38 we read that a man had "departed" from Paul and Barnabas. In II Cor. 12:8 we read of Paul's thrice-repeated prayer that a thorn might "depart," or be removed, from his flesh. And so with all the others. Indeed, in two of the 15 cases above the very opposite of apostasy or departure from the truth is involved. In I Tim. 6:5 Timothy is told to depart ("withdraw thyself") from men who are "destitute of the truth," while in II Tim. 2:19 all who "name the name of Christ" are exhorted to "depart from iniquity." Surely these were not instructions to apostatize.

Thus, bear it well in mind, aphisteemi, the root verb of the Greek apostasia, means to depart -- nothing more. Later on we will discuss the particular "departure" referred to in II Thes. 2:3, but first the rendering "a falling away," as compared with "the departure," must be further discussed.

THE AUTHORIZED VERSION  AND ITS PREDECESSORS

Kenneth S. Wuest, in his preface to II Thessalonians, says in part:

"If apostasia and aphisteemi meant what our word ‘apostasy' and ‘apostatize' mean, why did Paul, when using aphisteemi in I Timothy 4:1, feel the need of adding the qualifying phrase, ‘from the faith' to complete the meaning of aphisteemi in that instance of its use? .... The word apostasia, therefore, in its original and pure meaning, unadulterated by the addition of other ideas imposed upon it by the contexts in which it has been used, means “a departure.'"

In explaining why the King James Version failed to retain the rendering "a departure," which they found in the five versions which preceded KJV, Mr. Wuest points out a technical mistake contained in all six versions. Says Mr. Wuest:

"The fatal mistake the translators made 51was in failing to take into consideration the definite article before the word apostasia ... "(Ibid). The article here denotes previous reference, for this wording clearly implies that they already know about it.

The meaning of Paul's words in II Thes. 2:3, then, is that before the Tribulation can come, the "man of sin" must be revealed, and before this can happen "the departure" must come "first."

WHAT DEPARTURE?

No "falling away" or "apostasy" had been previously mentioned in either epistle, but in the whole of I Thessalonians and also of II Thessalonians up to this point, the Apostle's very theme had been the rapture of the members of the Body of Christ. Thus here in II Thes. 2:3 he must be referring to "the departure" of the Church to be with Christ. This falls naturally into place with the whole context, for why should Paul exhort these believers not to be "shaken" or "troubled," merely because the apostasy must precede the Tribulation? This would be no comfort. Further, how could they recognize "the" apostasy, much less "a" falling away when came? The fact is that apostasy is raging now, in our day; it has been throughout the Church's history. Indeed, it began in the days of Paul himself, and he wrote to Timothy, instructing him what to do about it. Thus “a falling away" could be no definite guidepost to the Thessalonian believers. But if, as we have contended, the beginning of the Tribulation awaits the rapture of the members of the Body of Christ, then the very fact that the Thessalonian saints were still on earth was in itself positive proof that the day of the Lord had not yet come.

CONCLUSION

1. The word apostasia and its root verb aphisteemi, do not, used by themselves, mean “apostasy" and “apostatize." They mean “departure" and “depart," nothing more.

2. II Thes. 2:3 states in the Greek, that the day of the Lord will not come “except the departure come first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition."

3. The term “the departure," with the definite article, denotes previous reference.

4. Paul had written to the Thessalonians in his previous letter about the departure of the members of Christ's Body from this earth (I Thes. 4:16,17) and had even disassociated this from the prophesied “day of the Lord" with the use of the word, “But" in I Thes. 5:1. He had also referred to this “departure" in the phrase ”our gathering together unto Him," in II Thes. 2:1. Indeed, this was the basis for his appeal to the Thessalonians not to be “shaken" or “troubled" by those who would lead them to believe that “the day of the Lord" had already begun. Also, he had “told" them about “these things" while he was yet with them (II Thes. 2:5).

5. “The man of sin" must also be manifested before the “day of the Lord" can come (II Thes. 2:3,4)52 and he cannot be manifested until “the departure" takes place “first."

6. Thus, in addition to many clear proofs that the rapture of the Body will precede the Tribulation we also have a passage which “explicitly affirms" this.

“WHEREFORE COMFORT ONE ANOTHER…” (I Thes. 4:18).

“BE NOT SOON SHAKEN IN MIND, OR… TROUBLED…” (II Thes. 2:2).

“LET NO MAN DECEIVE YOU BY ANY MEANS…” (II Thes. 2:3).

Mentioned on CBS News today.  

I work for Blockbuster Inc IT.  Strangly enough, my work involves repairing and networking of RF scanners in their distribution center.   Even Blockbuster has goals to eventually move to RFID phase in the not so distant future.   Scanning barcodes is a bit cumbersome.  RFID would elimiate that and be able to track product throughout the warehouse and possibly rental usage  ???

RFID is so small/thin, if can be put inside a sticker or label on a medicine bottle.

Grace and Peace!

F.Y.I., Folks,

Revelation is not plural, but singular.

I pray this knowledge enhances and adds depth to your discussion.
 Please excuse this post if the correction was previously noted.

ollie  :)

Hi all, I'm new to the forums here. I checked out some other threads before coming to this one. I would like to come back and spend some more time with the views of one mixing Nebuchadnezzar Dreams, the revived Roman Empire, the coming of the Messiah amoung other things. I still have some post left to read, but my questions can wait until next time.

FayeC:
The word of God wasn't meant to be a check list. Pause and Calmly look at. Jesus is Lord.

2nd Timothy:

Perry Stone (http://www.voe.org/store/store.cfm?CFID=962292&CFTOKEN=44488248&fxn=detail&pid=AP-40) is doing something on those lines. I didn't see enough to base an opinion on, while he was promoting his video.

There are still literally 1,000s of people that do not or have they heard the message of Jesus Christ preached to them in their own tongue so that they could understand what was being said. Look at China,sure there are ubderground groups, but Christians are being locked every day over there for trying to spread the word. Viet Nam just passed a anti-Christian law.

Brother Talmadge,

I recently read a message from Evangelist in another thread about what Christians are facing in many parts of the world. There are hosts of Christians being beaten, tortured, or killed just for owning a Bible or attending a worship service. In fact, there are already places where Christians are being hunted down for the purpose of extermination.

This makes me very sad, especially considering these people and their countrymen really need JESUS! I'm thinking about those who have to hide to study the Bible or have a worship service. This makes me know beyond any doubt that we take our freedom to worship God for granted. I don't think that many appreciate the blessing God has given us to worship, pray, and study the Bible in peace and safety. This should give us another reason to thank God for what HE has provided. We should also be praying for those around the world who have to risk their very lives to mention Christ, share a Bible, or attend a worship service.

Brother, Americans are spoiled, and I'm one of them. I have numerous Bibles in text or on the computer to study any time I wish. I can pray any time I wish and attend worship services any time I wish. God has richly blessed us with this freedom, and I give thanks for this freedom. We can also share the Gospel of the Grace of God in many ways, including the Internet and places like Christians Unite. We can fellowship openly with each other in many ways and in many places, including Christians Unite. We are rich in the treasures of God's Word and being in Jesus.

Brother, I've been wanting to tell you how much I enjoy your posts.

Love In Christ,
Tom

I am glad that you enjoy my post. I hope that they help someone understand and want Jesus in their lives.


"Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance."(James 1:2,3 NAS)

 :)

 how can the united states  be a holy land have you people ever waken up to see what is all happening in this country . you dont see the immorality ,the out of control violence ,all the rapist and leggal gay rights!

 god say he will judge all nations and the united states ,the government that is what god is talking about!!

Hello religousguy, and welcome to Christians Unite forum.  Such is the state of the whole world, if you look.  This isn't just the United States, but the whole world.

Yes Jesus will judge all nations in the future.

Joel 3:12 Let the nations bestir themselves and come up to the Valley of Jehoshaphat, for there will I sit to judge all the nations round about.

Hello RG23,

Welcome to Christians Unite.

The U.S. is not and never has been a "holy land". At one time the nation did in fact follow Him and based the laws of this land on His word. That does not make it a holy land but rather a nation that is seeking to follow Him. As a nation it has fallen from that path. As DW said it is not just this nation though but all nations of this world that is separating themselves from God and following a worldly path.

Hi religious guy...

Welcome..

It is true...The United States is filled with crime..immorality but..there is still hope...for the blood still flows...God gives us out of His love for us..gives us opportunity upon opportunity to turn to Him...This world will not get better and this world and all that is in it will fade away to the dust it came from..but what God offers is eternal...and that is a revelation to the lost who seek and never find..until they find the Lord..

I know that all will be encouraged with your post...and with fellowship with you..

There's a call going out across this land and every nation..
A call to all who swear alligience to the cross of Christ...
A call to true humility to live a life of holiness...
To deepen our devotion to the cross at any price...
Let us then be sober...moving only in the Spirit
As aliens and strangers in a hostile foreign land..
The message we're proclaiming is repentance and forgiveness..
The offer of salvation..to a dying race of man...
As a candle is consumed by the passion of the flame..
Spreading light unsparingly..througout a darkened room..
Let us burn to know Him deeper than our service burning bright
Will radiate His passion and blaze with HOLY FIRE

To love the Lord our God is the heartbeat of our mission..
The spring from which our service over flows..
Acroos the street or around the world...
The message is the same...
PROCLAIM THE TRUTH AND LIVE IN JESUS NAME...