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Theology => Debate => Topic started by: Allinall on August 10, 2004, 12:53:19 PM



Title: John Kerry's View of Children...
Post by: Allinall on August 10, 2004, 12:53:19 PM
From Reuters news group:

Quote
A Roman Catholic, Kerry disputed the idea his belief that life begins at conception was incompatible with his support of embryonic stem cell research.

"It is entirely within ethical bounds to do embryonic stem cell research without violating one's beliefs at all about what life is or where it is and what matters," he told reporters at the Grand Canyon in Arizona.

"I think you have to measure it also against the lives you save, against the diseases that you're curing," he said.


Hm.  He wants to measure it against the lives saved by curing the diseases these babies would be giving their lives to save.  Hm.  And that's "entirely within ethical bounds."

If I had any doubt on who to vote for, I don't anymore.  Go Bush.


Title: Re:John Kerry's View of Children...
Post by: Kristi Ann on August 10, 2004, 01:33:38 PM
ummmm, People all have different views on Politics and life.  Plus how can we believe in News articles being the True Words of anyone!  The media Always works the words over so people will either listen to them or buy from their sponsors.

No one is Perfect, In Fact, Bush is Not perfect either. Neither is Kerry, No one should expect the Media to portray the candidates in a perfect manner.

Is it interesting that society demands abortion as a birth control method which terminates the life of the unborn, which is thrown away. Kerry is using a military method of thinking of sacrificing a few to benefit or protect the most.

I am Pro-Life; I think any abortion is Murder that is performed by someone.  It is Not murder when God aborts the baby through His natural methods.

So, saying Go Bush is demeaning for anyone to hear this.  What about Children that read these pages, we know that happens?  I say this because non-members can see everything on this Board, so, we need to be careful what we say. Kids are kids, and words are words.  No One is Perfect!!


Title: Re:John Kerry's View of Children...
Post by: Allinall on August 10, 2004, 02:43:03 PM
ummmm, People all have different views on Politics and life.  Plus how can we believe in News articles being the True Words of anyone!  The media Always works the words over so people will either listen to them or buy from their sponsors.

No one is Perfect, In Fact, Bush is Not perfect either. Neither is Kerry, No one should expect the Media to portray the candidates in a perfect manner.

Is it interesting that society demands abortion as a birth control method which terminates the life of the unborn, which is thrown away. Kerry is using a military method of thinking of sacrificing a few to benefit or protect the most.

I am Pro-Life; I think any abortion is Murder that is performed by someone.  It is Not murder when God aborts the baby through His natural methods.

So, saying Go Bush is demeaning for anyone to hear this.  What about Children that read these pages, we know that happens?  I say this because non-members can see everything on this Board, so, we need to be careful what we say. Kids are kids, and words are words.  No One is Perfect!!


Nope.  Nobody's perfect.  But Bush isn't willing to use our children's lives to prolong ours.  My vote goes to Bush.  Sorry if that chaffes, but saying he may have been misquoted, and that his view is ok doesn't change anything.  Go Bush!   :)


Title: Re:John Kerry's View of Children...
Post by: 2nd Timothy on August 10, 2004, 03:12:10 PM
ummmm, People all have different views on Politics and life.  

And being able to express our different views is basically the reason most of us participate in posting is it not?

Quote
Plus how can we believe in News articles being the True Words of anyone!  The media Always works the words over so people will either listen to them or buy from their sponsors.

Do you think we should disregard current news?

Quote
No one is Perfect, In Fact, Bush is Not perfect either. Neither is Kerry, No one should expect the Media to portray the candidates in a perfect manner.

Welcome to the real world!   Not to be taken wrongly.  We as imperfect children of God, should seek HIS infinate perfect wisdom in all things (even our choice of President).  We can't just stick our heads in a hole in the ground and hope God takes care of it all.  He wants us to take action!  When we take action by faith, God can do wonders through us.   ;)

Quote
Kerry is using a military method of thinking of sacrificing a few to benefit or protect the most.

And which imperfect news source said this?


Quote
So, saying Go Bush is demeaning for anyone to hear this.  What about Children that read these pages, we know that happens?  I say this because non-members can see everything on this Board, so, we need to be careful what we say. Kids are kids, and words are words.  No One is Perfect!!

Saying GO BUSH is demeaning?  To whom?   Sorry I don't understand this.  Is that like saying "I'M PRO-LIFE" is demeaning?   See what I mean?   Its impossible to say anything that does not differ with someone elses opinion.  We are not called to be of the same opion....we are called to be the salt of the earth, the preserve!  

I know politics is a hot topic for many.  I believe this upcoming election could be more important than most think it is.  But thats just my opinion  ;D  We need to seek Gods wisdom and allow him to lead us in our Choice when we vote.  Don't stick your head in the sand and ignore whats going on.  Read the news, the transcripts the live interviews.  See what these men are about.   Then ask God, who he would have you choose.  

In the mean time, don't mind if me and Allinall yell....GO BUSH!   ;D  lol    Still love ya sister!

Grace and Peace!


Title: Re:John Kerry's View of Children...
Post by: 2nd Timothy on August 10, 2004, 08:06:46 PM
MsGuidedAngel,

Re-reading my reply, I realise I may have sounded a bit turse.  It was not my intent to be abrassive, but rather understand your reaction to the original post.  Thus the numerous questions.

Anyways, hope you understand I'm not picking a fight, just picking your brain rather.

Grace and Peace!


Title: Re:John Kerry's View of Children...
Post by: Kristi Ann on August 10, 2004, 09:28:04 PM
MsGuidedAngel,

Re-reading my reply, I realise I may have sounded a bit turse.  It was not my intent to be abrassive, but rather understand your reaction to the original post.  Thus the numerous questions.

Anyways, hope you understand I'm not picking a fight, just picking your brain rather.

Grace and Peace!


Thanks Tim for Clairifying this!  I do not want to fight with anyone!  I Love Everyone here!! ;D

I am Brain Dead right now, it's 93 degrees outside right now at 6:25PM (PST), and 30% humidity.  I hate humidity with a passion.  Me being second Generation Nørwegian in the USA, I prefer Cold Winter weather.

Once I get my SSDI, I am Moving to the Coast of Oregon, near Astoria, Oregon (http://www.oldoregon.com/).

Politics is not my bag of tricks anyhow. No one is Right in Politics!! They all lie one way or another to get into office, and have people covering up there bad doings and tracks!!

My Leader is Jesus Christ!!! \o/


Title: Re:John Kerry's View of Children...
Post by: 2nd Timothy on August 10, 2004, 11:28:26 PM
I didn't realize Kindergarten Cop and parts of Free Willie were filmed in Astoria.  I've always wanted to visit Oregon...seems like a peacful place.

Politics is aggrivating.  All we can really do is ask God to guide us in our choice when voting.  Being a prophecy watcher, I do strongly feel this election in particular is of the uttmost importance.  I see trouble on the horizon for America.  I'm not sure either choice can change America's course from sin and judgment, but I certainly feel that one might get us there quicker.   Its deffinately an election to pray over, and that Gods choice will prevail.


Quote
My Leader is Jesus Christ!!!

Go Jesus!

Grace and Peace!


Title: Re:John Kerry's View of Children...
Post by: Kristi Ann on August 10, 2004, 11:35:46 PM
uh huh, that is one of my favorite movies!!!

I love Kindergarden Cop, I own the VHS, I must have seen it 30 times and I still love it!!!


Blessings,  \o/


Title: Re:John Kerry's View of Children...
Post by: musicllover on August 10, 2004, 11:50:47 PM
ummmm, People all have different views on Politics and life.  Plus how can we believe in News articles being the True Words of anyone!  The media Always works the words over so people will either listen to them or buy from their sponsors.

No one is Perfect, In Fact, Bush is Not perfect either. Neither is Kerry, No one should expect the Media to portray the candidates in a perfect manner.

Is it interesting that society demands abortion as a birth control method which terminates the life of the unborn, which is thrown away. Kerry is using a military method of thinking of sacrificing a few to benefit or protect the most.

I am Pro-Life; I think any abortion is Murder that is performed by someone.  It is Not murder when God aborts the baby through His natural methods.

So, saying Go Bush is demeaning for anyone to hear this.  What about Children that read these pages, we know that happens?  I say this because non-members can see everything on this Board, so, we need to be careful what we say. Kids are kids, and words are words.  No One is Perfect!!


I agree with you, the media will put a twisted on some story or leave enough out etc etc that they don't always give a fair picture.
     My son was with the first wave of Marines to hit bagdad. The military set up a hot line number for family members to call and get an occasional report from the Commanders, in almost every message the commander would remind the family to be careful of what they watched on TV, or listened too. News broadcast give a bleak picture of what was happening there, it was bad enough seeing the explosions on CNN, but I couldn't help myself, by baby was somewhere in the mix. I heard one thing from the broadcast, heard another from the Commanders. GGGGGGGGGRRRRRRR, all I wanted was to hear ya Mom, your son is fine........lol.....So it was real confusion to listen to the News, and then turn around and hear the commander's reports, they never went together.
     THe problem is how we each see the "good" guy, and honestly, I would rather a child read GO BUSH that go k....... Like you I don't believe 100% everything from any politician, but I also believe that we have to vote for the guy that represents himself, and shows a history of being Christian. Lots of prayer and following the principals of the scripture is the only way I vote. The other guy seems like a fish out of water, flip flopping over this issue and that. But that is my opinion.

Blessing,
musicllover  


Title: Re:John Kerry's View of Children...
Post by: Shammu on August 11, 2004, 01:50:49 AM
I rather have a President that fibs and supports Christians. Then a President that supports murder and Gay rights.

[size=10]GO BUSH!![/size]


Title: Re:John Kerry's View of Children...
Post by: sincereheart on August 11, 2004, 07:14:04 AM
WARNING: LANGUAGE ADVISORY!
Go Kerry?  ???

Quotes FROM Kerry:

Quote
Did you feel you were blindsided by Dean's success?
Well, not blindsided. I mean, when I voted for the war, I voted for what I thought was best for the country. Did I expect Howard Dean to go off to the left and say, "I'm against everything"? Sure. Did I expect George Bush to gotcha1 it up as badly as he did? I don't think anybody did.
http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/clips/news_2003_1202a.html (http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/clips/news_2003_1202a.html)

Quote
Noting my physical discomfort beside him in the backseat, Wade asks Kerry, "Sir, have you ever considered getting a bigger car?" Kerry shoots back, "No, but I have thought about cutting all your gotcha1ing legs off at the knees." Then he waves a hand at the green world outside. "Look at this weather," he exclaims.. "If I could, I'd go roll around on the grass somewhere ideally a spot where a dog hadn't been."
http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/clips/news_2002_0827.html (http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/clips/news_2002_0827.html)

Quote
Now, I am thinking that this is sort of unlikely and charming, and certainly amusing, but Kerry is so serious that when I call him the “Anti-Hillary” (apropos of the former First Lady’s 1992 line about not being the sort of political wife who stayed home baking cookies), it takes him a minute to get the joke. He finally does – “You damn right I was. I was the cookie guy”
http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/clips/news_2003_0303.html (http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/clips/news_2003_0303.html)

Quote
Did I think Bush was going to charge unilaterally into war? No. Did I think he would make such an incredible mess of the situation? No. Am I angry about it? You're God damned right I am. I chose to believe the President of the United States. That was a terrible mistake."

Quote
Your Questions, John Kerry's Answers
How will John Kerry protect Roe v. Wade?
I believe that women have the right to control their own bodies, their own lives, and their own destinies. The Constitution protects the right to choose and to make their own reproductive choices in consultation with their doctor, their conscience, and their God.
I will defend this right as President, as I have throughout my career, and will appoint only pro-choice judges to the Supreme Court.
http://www.johnkerry.com/communities/women/qa.html
 (http://www.johnkerry.com/communities/women/qa.html)


Title: Re:John Kerry's View of Children...
Post by: Kristi Ann on August 11, 2004, 10:43:17 AM
I am sorry Reba,

I was just kidding!....

Blessings,  \o/


PS... I deleted it just now, I don't people getting the wrong message at all.


Title: Re:John Kerry's View of Children...
Post by: Reba on August 11, 2004, 11:31:28 AM
I am sorry Reba,

I was just kidding!....

Blessings,  \o/


PS... I deleted it just now, I don't people getting the wrong message at all.


:-*


Title: Re:John Kerry's View of Children...
Post by: musicllover on August 11, 2004, 06:11:31 PM
WARNING: LANGUAGE ADVISORY!
Go Kerry?  ???

Quotes FROM Kerry:

Quote
Did you feel you were blindsided by Dean's success?
Well, not blindsided. I mean, when I voted for the war, I voted for what I thought was best for the country. Did I expect Howard Dean to go off to the left and say, "I'm against everything"? Sure. Did I expect George Bush to **** it up as badly as he did? I don't think anybody did.
http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/clips/news_2003_1202a.html (http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/clips/news_2003_1202a.html)

Quote
Noting my physical discomfort beside him in the backseat, Wade asks Kerry, "Sir, have you ever considered getting a bigger car?" Kerry shoots back, "No, but I have thought about cutting all your ****ing legs off at the knees." Then he waves a hand at the green world outside. "Look at this weather," he exclaims.. "If I could, I'd go roll around on the grass somewhere ideally a spot where a dog hadn't been."
http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/clips/news_2002_0827.html (http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/clips/news_2002_0827.html)

Quote
Now, I am thinking that this is sort of unlikely and charming, and certainly amusing, but Kerry is so serious that when I call him the “Anti-Hillary” (apropos of the former First Lady’s 1992 line about not being the sort of political wife who stayed home baking cookies), it takes him a minute to get the joke. He finally does – “You damn right I was. I was the cookie guy”
http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/clips/news_2003_0303.html (http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/clips/news_2003_0303.html)

Quote
Did I think Bush was going to charge unilaterally into war? No. Did I think he would make such an incredible mess of the situation? No. Am I angry about it? You're God damned right I am. I chose to believe the President of the United States. That was a terrible mistake."

Quote
Your Questions, John Kerry's Answers
How will John Kerry protect Roe v. Wade?
I believe that women have the right to control their own bodies, their own lives, and their own destinies. The Constitution protects the right to choose and to make their own reproductive choices in consultation with their doctor, their conscience, and their God.
I will defend this right as President, as I have throughout my career, and will appoint only pro-choice judges to the Supreme Court.
http://www.johnkerry.com/communities/women/qa.html
 (http://www.johnkerry.com/communities/women/qa.html)


WOW Sincereheart,
                          this is most interesting, thak you for revealing this to us, ooooohhhhh potty mouth, bad addittude and poor vision for this country.....not good, no no not good at all.

musicllover


Title: Re:John Kerry's View of Children...
Post by: Kristi Ann on August 11, 2004, 10:13:00 PM
I am sorry Reba,

I was just kidding!....

Blessings,  \o/


PS... I deleted it just now, I don't people getting the wrong message at all.


:-*


I am sorry I don't understand the response ~>  :-*



Title: Re:John Kerry's View of Children...
Post by: Shammu on August 12, 2004, 12:28:47 AM
WARNING: LANGUAGE ADVISORY!
Go Kerry?  ???

Quotes FROM Kerry:

Quote
Did you feel you were blindsided by Dean's success?
Well, not blindsided. I mean, when I voted for the war, I voted for what I thought was best for the country. Did I expect Howard Dean to go off to the left and say, "I'm against everything"? Sure. Did I expect George Bush to **** it up as badly as he did? I don't think anybody did.
http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/clips/news_2003_1202a.html (http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/clips/news_2003_1202a.html)

Quote
Noting my physical discomfort beside him in the backseat, Wade asks Kerry, "Sir, have you ever considered getting a bigger car?" Kerry shoots back, "No, but I have thought about cutting all your ****ing legs off at the knees." Then he waves a hand at the green world outside. "Look at this weather," he exclaims.. "If I could, I'd go roll around on the grass somewhere ideally a spot where a dog hadn't been."
http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/clips/news_2002_0827.html (http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/clips/news_2002_0827.html)

Quote
Now, I am thinking that this is sort of unlikely and charming, and certainly amusing, but Kerry is so serious that when I call him the “Anti-Hillary” (apropos of the former First Lady’s 1992 line about not being the sort of political wife who stayed home baking cookies), it takes him a minute to get the joke. He finally does – “You damn right I was. I was the cookie guy”
http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/clips/news_2003_0303.html (http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/clips/news_2003_0303.html)

Quote
Did I think Bush was going to charge unilaterally into war? No. Did I think he would make such an incredible mess of the situation? No. Am I angry about it? You're God damned right I am. I chose to believe the President of the United States. That was a terrible mistake."

Quote
Your Questions, John Kerry's Answers
How will John Kerry protect Roe v. Wade?
I believe that women have the right to control their own bodies, their own lives, and their own destinies. The Constitution protects the right to choose and to make their own reproductive choices in consultation with their doctor, their conscience, and their God.
I will defend this right as President, as I have throughout my career, and will appoint only pro-choice judges to the Supreme Court.
http://www.johnkerry.com/communities/women/qa.html
 (http://www.johnkerry.com/communities/women/qa.html)

You are a bad girl!!  ;)

J/K
You just dashed the hopes of some Christians! ;D
Nice post sincereheart. ;D


Title: Re:John Kerry's View of Children...
Post by: musicllover on August 12, 2004, 01:02:17 AM

[/url]

Quote
You are a bad girl!!  ;)

J/K
You just dashed the hopes of some Christians! ;D
Nice post sincereheart. ;D
Quote

    YA not to mention he needs a bar of soap for his mouth, Lava maybe....


Title: Re:John Kerry's View of Children...
Post by: Shammu on August 12, 2004, 01:13:40 AM

[/url]

Quote
You are a bad girl!!  ;)

J/K
You just dashed the hopes of some Christians! ;D
Nice post sincereheart. ;D
Quote

    YA not to mention he needs a bar of soap for his mouth, Lava maybe....
How about Dawn dish soap. ;D


Title: Re:John Kerry's View of Children...
Post by: sincereheart on August 12, 2004, 07:50:42 AM
WARNING: LANGUAGE ADVISORY!
Go Kerry?  ???

Quotes FROM Kerry:

Quote
Did you feel you were blindsided by Dean's success?
Well, not blindsided. I mean, when I voted for the war, I voted for what I thought was best for the country. Did I expect Howard Dean to go off to the left and say, "I'm against everything"? Sure. Did I expect George Bush to **** it up as badly as he did? I don't think anybody did.
http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/clips/news_2003_1202a.html (http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/clips/news_2003_1202a.html)

Quote
Noting my physical discomfort beside him in the backseat, Wade asks Kerry, "Sir, have you ever considered getting a bigger car?" Kerry shoots back, "No, but I have thought about cutting all your ****ing legs off at the knees." Then he waves a hand at the green world outside. "Look at this weather," he exclaims.. "If I could, I'd go roll around on the grass somewhere ideally a spot where a dog hadn't been."
http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/clips/news_2002_0827.html (http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/clips/news_2002_0827.html)

Quote
Now, I am thinking that this is sort of unlikely and charming, and certainly amusing, but Kerry is so serious that when I call him the “Anti-Hillary” (apropos of the former First Lady’s 1992 line about not being the sort of political wife who stayed home baking cookies), it takes him a minute to get the joke. He finally does – “You damn right I was. I was the cookie guy”
http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/clips/news_2003_0303.html (http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/clips/news_2003_0303.html)

Quote
Did I think Bush was going to charge unilaterally into war? No. Did I think he would make such an incredible mess of the situation? No. Am I angry about it? You're God damned right I am. I chose to believe the President of the United States. That was a terrible mistake."

Quote
Your Questions, John Kerry's Answers
How will John Kerry protect Roe v. Wade?
I believe that women have the right to control their own bodies, their own lives, and their own destinies. The Constitution protects the right to choose and to make their own reproductive choices in consultation with their doctor, their conscience, and their God.
I will defend this right as President, as I have throughout my career, and will appoint only pro-choice judges to the Supreme Court.
http://www.johnkerry.com/communities/women/qa.html
 (http://www.johnkerry.com/communities/women/qa.html)

You are a bad girl!!  ;)

J/K
You just dashed the hopes of some Christians! ;D
Nice post sincereheart. ;D

 ;D

But seriously, he really is SKERRY!  :-X


Title: Re:John Kerry's View of Children...
Post by: sincereheart on August 12, 2004, 08:42:52 AM
What Kerry supporters look like:

(http://bunniediehl.worldmagblog.com/archives/Face%20of%20Evil.jpg)

Yet they never seem to stop and realize that if their mothers had aborted when they were pregnant with them, then they wouldn't have been around to promote abortion today... ::)


Title: Re:John Kerry's View of Children...
Post by: sincereheart on August 12, 2004, 08:56:16 AM
So do these folks really support Kerry? Or do they just support abortion and that makes kerry their logical 'choice'?

(http://bunniediehl.worldmagblog.com/archives/Female%20God.jpg)

 >:(


Title: Re:John Kerry's View of Children...
Post by: sincereheart on August 12, 2004, 09:16:34 AM
Kerry supporters.....

(http://www.guerrillagirls.com/posters/images/abortion.gif)
Copyright © 1992, 1995 by Guerrilla Girls
Quote
WHAT ARE TRADITIONAL VALUES ON ABORTION? AS YOU CAN SEE FROM THIS POSTER, IT DEPENDS.
We carried this poster in the prochoice march on Washington D.C., urging right-to-lifers—and the Catholic Church—to repent their sinful, modern ideas.

http://www.guerrillagirls.com/posters/catholic.shtml (http://www.guerrillagirls.com/posters/catholic.shtml)


Title: Re:John Kerry's View of Children...
Post by: 2nd Timothy on August 12, 2004, 09:19:40 AM
Quote
So do these folks really support Kerry? Or do they just support abortion and that makes kerry their logical 'choice'?

I think you have the nail on the head here.   I keep thinking of Allinall's post about the sermon he heard that described the progression of sin.  Making a mockery of God....not only doing these things, but supporting others who do...

Rom 1:32  Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

God have mercy on our nation.   I hope its not already too late.


Grace and Peace!


Title: Re:John Kerry's View of Children...
Post by: musicllover on August 12, 2004, 02:18:03 PM
    I am always shocked by peoples boldness, and ignorance, honestly I bet most of the people carrying around these signs have NO idea what they really are supporting (the devil). Who is God to them, no faith, no hope, what do they even get out of bed for? I guess on the bright side to this, (if there is one) it makes me draw closer to God, how can anyone esixt with out him? But they do and its so very very sad.
     Killing babies, is killing this nation, one small soul at a time. Lord have mercy on this country if Kerry gets put in the white house.
       I am MOST relieved to see Ca has revoked the same sex marriages, with Mo standing strong, and Ca pulling the same marriage certifcates I pray this will send a strong message to the rest of this nation.

      Seems we aren't to far from the hand basket.
 :'(
musicllover


Title: Re:John Kerry's View of Children...
Post by: Evangelist on August 12, 2004, 03:24:15 PM
FWIW....I just finished a 6 week series at both church and on a radio program taken from Jer. 2.

IMO, God is speaking to us in the US today through those verses. Read the passage, and see if He opens your eyes to what is going on, and has been.


Title: Re:John Kerry's View of Children...
Post by: Shammu on August 13, 2004, 01:45:09 AM
FWIW....I just finished a 6 week series at both church and on a radio program taken from Jer. 2.

IMO, God is speaking to us in the US today through those verses. Read the passage, and see if He opens your eyes to what is going on, and has been.
I finished reading Jer 2-3 today before I came on.  ;D


Title: Re:John Kerry's View of Children...
Post by: musicllover on August 13, 2004, 10:11:22 AM
FWIW....I just finished a 6 week series at both church and on a radio program taken from Jer. 2.

IMO, God is speaking to us in the US today through those verses. Read the passage, and see if He opens your eyes to what is going on, and has been.


Sure make the goosebumps raise when I read the verse
    Jer 2:34 Also on your skirts is found the blood of the lives of the poor innocents. I have not found it by secret search, but plainly on all these things.

We don't even have the conscience to try and hide the killing of our babies.  :'(
 musicllover