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In all the hubbub and furor over pre, mid and post tribulation thinking, most of the opponents to pre-trib rapture thought tend to gather around a central theme that was introduced a few years back.

This "argument" is essentially that the only historical basis for pre-tribulationism is recent, having begun with Darby in the early 1800's, and then developed further until culminating in Scofield and Ryrie's expositions.

Also, there are allegations that Darby's development of Dispensationalism (which gave rise to the pre-trib movement) is based entirely upon his knowledge of, and development from, a "vision" and prophecy uttered by a young Scottish lady named MacDonald.

Several things I would like to point out. One, MacDonalds "vision" is dated at 1833.  Darby, although in Scotland/Wales during the '20's and early 30's, apparently did not know the young lady, nor ever heard of her or her vision. Second, Darby began expositing Dispensations and a rapture during the late 20's, with his earliest recorded sermon on the subject being 1827.

Setting this aside, it is often pointed out that there are NO known "traditions" or writings from the early church to indicate that they held any such belief in a "rapture", and as the argument goes, if there was such a tradition or belief, most assuredly it would have been "reported".

Ephraem the Syriac lived between roughly 260-340. Referred to as St. Ephraem, he was a bishop of the church in the region of what is now Syria/Lebanon.  Most, if not all, of his sermons were collected and published, and fairly widely spread throughout the middle east churches. A number of his collected writings are still published upon occasion.

One particular series of sermons was titled "On the last times". Four copies of the originals are still extant. Three are attributed directly to Ephraem, the fourth is ascribed to Isadore of Sevelle. Because of this, the particular series is often called "psuedo-Ephraem".

Following is an excerpt from that sermon.

Section 2
We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers, what is imminent or overhanging. Already there have been hunger and plagues, violent movements of nations and signs, which have been predicted by the Lord, they have already been fulfilled (consummated), and there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one in the completion of the Roman kingdom. Why therefore are we occupied with worldly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or on the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of worldly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or on the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world? Believe you me, dearest brother, because the coming (advent) of the Lord is nigh, believe you me, because the end of the world is at hand, believe me, because it is the very last time. Or do you not believe unless you see with your eyes? See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: "Woe to those who desire to see the day of the Lord!" For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins. And so, brothers most dear to me, it is the eleventh hour, and the end of the world comes to the harvest, and angels, armed and prepared, hold sickles in their hands, awaiting the empire of the Lord. And we think that the earth exists with blind infidelity, arriving at its downfall early. Commotions are brought forth, wars of diverse peoples and battles and incursions of the barbarians threaten, and our regions shall be desolated, and we neither become very much afraid of the report nor of the appearance, in order that we may at least do penance; because they hurl fear at us, and we do not wish to be changed, although we at least stand in need of penance for our actions!

Please note two items bolded: One, the statement of imminency which is a linchpin of Dispensational thinking, and two, a clear statement of removal of believers prior to tribulation that is to come.

It would then appear that the objection noted early on about pre-trib thinking being recent is not well-founded.

 Good work Evangelist.

 I brought this up a couple of months back while debating Petro. Of course Petro totally disregarded it, but "Pseudo-Ephraem's"  statement is pretribulational.

Grant Jeffrey...
 Also, the Byzantine scholar Paul Alexander clearly believed that Pseudo-Ephraem was teaching what we call today a pre-trib rapture. According to Alexander, most Byzantine apocalypses were concerned with how Christians would survive the time of severe persecution by Antichrist. The normal approach given by other apocalyptic texts was a shortening of the time to three and a half years, enabling the survival of some Christians. Unlike those texts, this sermon has Christians being removed from the time of tribulation.

Alexander observed:

It is probably no accident that Pseudo-Ephraem does not mention the shortening of the time intervals for the Antichrist's persecution, for if prior to it the Elect are 'taken to the Lord,' i.e., participate at least in some measure in beatitude, there is no need for further mitigating action on their behalf. The Gathering of the Elect according to Pseudo-Ephraem is an alternative to the shortening of the time intervals.

 Regardless of what else the writer of this sermon believed, he did believe that all believers would be removed before the tribulation-a pre-trib rapture view. Thus, we have seen that those who have said that there was no one before 1830 who taught the pre-trib rapture position will have to revise their statements by well over 1,000 years. This statement does not prove the pre-trib position, only the Bible can do that, but it should change many people's historical views on the matter.

Bronzesnake.

Evangelist,
            YES and amen and amen, the hisotrical fact around the "rapture" are proven time and time again. The tribulations is a teaching that has always been taught, Paul had to speak about it even in that day.  I guess it the word "rapture" that sooo many want to get upset over. I done some research on Justin Martyr, several years ago, his teaching of  the "gathering up" of the saints is a very early time as well, just can't remember when but I could look it up.
    by happen chance, what got me started on that journey was, I read a book by Mark Hitchcock,,,,  "101 Answers to the most aksed questions about the End Times" just curious have you read it and if so, do you believe the author knows what he is talking about?

 THanks for a good post.

Up UP and away...
Musicllover

Evangelist, I will give you "FOUR" Thumbs "DOWN"

You need some help on this subect:

THE RAPTURE! Everything You Wanted To Know

http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?board=6;action=display;threadid=256

THANK YOU!!!!!!, OH, THANK YOU!!!!

Obviously, you didn't read the post very well.  But thanks, anyway.

the following is written by my best friend, and explains my
positon on this topic far more elloquently than I could.

Signs of the End

By Jim Sivage



A careful dissection of Matthew 24 concerning the end times.

Mat 24:3  And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Jesus told his apostles to look for the signs that would precede his second coming and the end of the age.  

1) FALSE PROPHETS AND CHRISTS

Mat 24:5  For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:11  And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

In the last several years many people have claimed to be the Messiah like Jim Jones, David Koresh and countless others. Groups like Heaven's Gate promote ways to heaven, other than through Jesus. These false prophets and groups are a prelude to the ultimate false Christ, the Antichrist.

2) WARS

Matthew 24:6 "And you will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars; see that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end."

Wars and rumors of wars now occur frequently thanks to instant coverage by the many news media. More and more constant are uprisings and fighting throughout the world. Now with the scourge of terrorism, it looks like there is no end in sight.

Matthew 24:7 "For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes."

More people been killed in warfare in the last 100 years than at any other time in history. Devastating weapons of mass destruction (nuclear, chemical, and biological) are now available. For the first time in human history we now have the capacity to destroy ourselves. Less powerful nations and terror groups are scrambling to acquire these weapons and would certainly use them.

3) FAMINES

Mat 24:7  For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

Famine is a constant finding in Africa, especially in Ethiopia and Sudan. A large portion of the world's 5 billion people are undernourished. These conditions are not at all improving.

4) EARTHQUAKES

Mat 24:7  For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

The number and intensity of earthquakes this century are at a level higher than any other time in history. Earthquake Seismic Monitors that are linked to the various quake Web sites indicate a sharp rise just in the past year. By contrast in the years 1890-1900 there was only one major earthquake in the world. The whole creation groans and travails in pain until now.

5) TRIBULATIONS

Matthew 24:8-9 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

At this time the Church is under attack throughout the world (Russia, China, Saudi Arabia,  Korea, Sudan). During Jacob's trouble (great tribulation) the persecution of Christians will intensify even to the point of martyrdom.

These five point will only worsen as we go into the great tribulation. This is the time of Jacob's trouble. It's a 3.5 year period of highly intense trouble for both Israel and the church. All these things will intensify until it culminates in Christ's glorious return. It's his return that will bring destruction to the Antichrist war on the Saints of God.

) INCREASE IN KNOWLEDGE AND TRAVEL:

Dan 12:4  But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

More knowledge has been discovered in the last century than in all of history combined. Knowledge is coming so quickly that no one person could even come close to keeping up with all the new developments.

7) RETURN OF THE ETHIOPIAN JEWS TO ISRAEL:

Zephaniah 3:10-11 10  From beyond the rivers of Ethiopia my suppliants, even the daughter of my dispersed, shall bring mine offering. 11  In that day shalt thou not be ashamed for all thy doings, wherein thou hast transgressed against me: for then I will take away out of the midst of thee them that rejoice in thy pride, and thou shalt no more be haughty because of my holy mountain.

1984 and 1991 saw U.S. airlifts of Ethiopian Jews to Israel.

8) RISE OF RUSSIA:

Ezekiel 38:2,4,8 2  Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him, 4  And I will turn thee back, and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed with all sorts of armour, even a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords: 8  After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.

Prior to the 20th century Magog or Russia was not a economic or military world power. Russia will certainly will have her role in end time activities.

9) RETURN OF THE RUSSIAN JEWS TO ISRAEL:

Jeremiah 23:7-8 7  Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that they shall no more say, The LORD liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt; 8  But, The LORD liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land.

1970's and 80's exodus of Russian Jews out of Communist Russia en mass.

10) TECHNOLOGY FOR THE MARK OF THE BEAST:

Revelation 13:16-17 16  And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: 17  And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Assuming the Mark is an under the skin implanted computer device, the technology is now available. However, we must be careful how much emphasis we choose to put on the technology alone. While the technology may only be a side feature, the mark itself will be a sign of ownership in the form of an actual mark that will depict the Antichrist world system.

11) PLANS FOR THE ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT:

The United Nations, World Trade Organization, Peacekeeping actions and other agencies are preliminary steps to the formation of a one world government. This generation is the first in history that has the communications and transportation needed to form a one world government which the Antichrist will establish.

In 1993 The Declaration of a Global Ethic was crafted. It speaks of a people who are "Not Authentically Human". This document should concern thinking people recognizes all belief systems as valid. This is unscriptural and Christians may find themselves not 'authentically human.' One might well ask whether it would be legal to kill a not authentically human person? As outlined in this document, such a person is viewed as having no rights whatsoever, so you decide. Is it ok to liquidate a non-human who has not rights? This is part of the Antichrist war on the Saints!

12) INSTANT COMMUNICATION AROUND THE WORLD:

Revelation 11:3,7-10 3  And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. 7  And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. 8  And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 9  And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. 10  And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

Television must be present for the world to see the dead prophets and rejoice at their deaths.

Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

So, what is the purpose of the tribulation?

Rom 2:5  But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

(Rom 8:18 KJV)  For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

(Rom 8:19 KJV)  For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

1 Cor 3:13  Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

In light of all these things, we're told: MT 24:4 Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you.

  Respectfully yours in Christ:

   :D  ravenloche   :D
 
 
 
 
   

ravenloche, I posted this about 6 years ago on my website. Its funny how many sites this is on now. ::)

    Some of the early church fathers to believe and teach of the mid trib rapture is Papias, CLement of Rome, Barnabas, Ignatius, Plycarp, and Justin Martyr. I've done the research on Justin Martyr, but not on the others, if any have please share your finding. I just thought this was interesting, some want to call this a "new" teaching, I know at least that Jusin Martyr is not a new man on the scence his teachings are dated back to 130 A.D.. Some of the Modern day mid trib believers are Charles Ryrie, John Walvoord, D. Dwight Pentecost, James Montgomerery Boice, Hal Lindsey, John MacArthur, Time LayHaye, Charles Swindoll.  Just some more food for thought.
blessings,
musicllover