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Hi everyone,

I would like to discuss whether spiritual gifts are still around for today or whether they have ceased as a way of continuing to learn how to work toward agreement with other Christians. I am not out to convert those who believe they have ceased to believing they are still for today or vice versa. I am out to unite around what God says.

Rather than just have us all just spout forth our own opinions ad infinitum as often happens when discussing this type of issue I think we need a more disciplined approach. One where we go verse by verse and build a consensus of understanding before continuing to other verses which might be more controversial.

If no one has any objections I would like to start by focusing on 1 Cor 13 and discussing whether it supports a ceasing of the gifts or not.

Let me ask the following questions first if I might to stimulate discussion.



It seems obvious from this verse that there are varying degrees of gifts. Some being greater than others. Setting aside the issue of whether any of the gifts are around for today or not for the moment, what does it mean for a gift to be greater than another? What is Paul saying when he says that he will show a more excellent way. A more excellent way when contrasted or compared with what other way? A way to what? Does anyone have any thoughts?



In this verse Paul seems to be summarizing the major point he made in 1 Cor 13. Pursue love. He also seems to bring in what he said at the tail end of 1 Cor 12. Namely that we are to desire spiritual gifts. And he even makes once again the same sort of distinction he made in 1 Cor 12:31. Namely that there are some gifts (the greater) that we are to especially desire. Prophesy being one example of such a greater gift.

In trying to understand what Paul is saying in 1 Cor 13 it seems important to understand it in the context of what he is saying immediately before the 13th chapter and immediately afterwards in 1 Cor 14:1. Namely pursue love, desire spiritual gifts in general, but especially the greater ones.

Does that about summarize what Paul is getting at just before and just after 1 Cor 13?

Remember...just a few verses at a time starting with the one's I have started the thread on if ya all don't mind . I know that some of us have a tendency to just spew forth verses in support of our respective positions on this but such does not ever seem to lead to more unity of thinking. Rather to the opposite.

Thanks.

Carlos

Welcome Carlos. Hope you enjoy your stay here.

Just a small note of disagreement, in that where you are starting (IMO) is a little further into the question than it should be.

Chaps 12, 13 and 14 are really a very excellent and logical discourse on the subject of gifts, but they are put in relation to HOW they occur, and everything really begins in 12.

How can you have any rational discussion (meaning logical) of what constitutes a "greater gift" or "a more excellent way" without first establishing some groundwork, or the foundation of the discussion.

Who gives the gifts, when are they given, what constitutes a gift, what is expected of the recipient, and when do they come into "play".

After that, what are the gifts, are they restricted to only those named, and how are they to be exhibited.

Lastly, is the "proof text" concerning cessation (found in Ch. 13) actually a proof text, or is it (by interpretation) being "forced" into a proof where it should not be?

It is an excellent subject to study, and should be required reading (and intense study) for ALL who know Christ, but it definitely should not be entered into with any pre-conceived notions about this, that, or the other.

Looking forward to more responses.

You are absolutely correct Evangelist!  Your response is one of the best one's I have yet seen on any forums I have started this discussion on (three so far).  All I have usually seen is the normal response on the part of Christians which leads us nowhere closer to agreement.  

Namely Christians will start in with opinions about this or that spiritual gift citing this or that verse and then veer off to express another opinion with thiis or that verse cited all over the place.  Or they will "pound" their point accross with so many verses cited that it makes it virtually impossible to come to agreement unless it is with them.  No disciplined study or going over verses.  No closer to agreement.  

I even had one Christian post a large section of a book he is writing on a thread, supposedly to help others see the irrefutable logic of his reasoning :).  Not that it did any good in that regard mind you.  

So let's start in chapter 12 then and see where this discussion goes.  Hopefully one's will stick to the progression and not veer off so that we can see God move us all toward agreement.  


I will share what I see in these verses as a springboard to discussion rather than asking questions as I did before.  

With the word "Now" Paul introduces the subject on which he will  be speaking.  That is "spiritual gifts".  Right in line with our discussion :).  Paul is encouraging the Corinthians to not stay in ignorance regarding spiritual gifts by saying "I do not want you to be unaware.".  When they were unbelievers (i.e. pagans) they were led astray to worship dumb or mute (unable to speak) idols.  Paul is reminding them of that I think to have them realize that even now as Christians they can still  be led astray just as they were as pagans.  And that he does not want them to continue in ignorance regarding spiritual gifts.  

Does that about summarize what this is saying?  Any other thoughts on these first few verses?  Let's stick to this verse by verse ya all so that we might get further than Christians usually do when discussing this subject.  

Let's reign in our tendency to just spout off at the mouth :).  Mine included.  

Carlos

Sounds good, Carlos!

I would add just one thing, which is implied rather than spoken. Recall that the entirety of Corinthians is addressed to born-again believers living in a pagan setting, and most of them (as noted) had been pagans. Paul here, I believe, is also setting up the arguments that will follow to contrast the realities of God's gifts with those supposedly evident in the pagan religions.

Of note here is the historical reality that most (if not all) of the pagan religions being practiced throughout history involved several important considerations: one, reliance upon a priest or priestess to dole out favors or punishments; two, the use of sensual favors or preparatory embellishments to facilitate "getting closer to..." whatever deity they wanted to contact; three, ecstatic utterances, both by the priest/priestesses that were then interpreted by them to the seeker, and by the seeker who had "succeeded" in making contact with the spiritual realm.

I'll briefly (by notation only) make reference to Elijah and the priests of Baal on Mt. Carmel, and what those priests went through before being burned!

As you say, Paul is beginning by clarifying that there is indeed a difference between the charismata being exhibited by the pagans, and the true gifts given by God, who alone can actually speak to and through His followers.....the pagan gods were mute...dumb as it were (indeed!).

Carry on!!

Well put Evangelist!  

I will continue unless anyone has anything else to add.   It feels a bit like I am having a discussion with myself (with encouragment from you Evangelist and some additional insight of course) but one never knows on these boards who might be reading and liable to jump in at any moment I guess.  

So continuing with 1 Cor 12....


Paul sums up his first few sentences by saying "therefore...".  That is in view of how the Corinthians were led astray as pagans and Paul's wish that they no longer walk in ignorance about matters pertaining to spiritual gifts....he begins to lay out truths about manifestations being experienced among them as Christians.  

He begins by helping the Corinthians realize that all manifestations are either of God or not.  And that those that are of God will confess and acknowledge Jesus as Lord.  Or in other words uphold the essence of who Jesus Christ is.  Not contradict it.  I do not believe Paul is saying that anyone who says "Jesus is Lord" verbally is of God but rather more in line with the spirit of what Paul said in Romans...that one believes with the heart and confesses with their mouth attesting to the reality of their relationship to God.  

In other words to say "Jesus is Lord" involves more than just a verbal saying of these words.  Rather it involves a true recognition of Jesus as Lord such that the verbal confession of such evidences a genuine held belief in Jesus as Lord.  

One can not do that unless God has been at work in the heart to have that person recognize and embrace that.  

I believe that Paul then makes the point that God expresses himself through various gifts in various ways through various individuals.  Such that no one individual can claim to have gifts from God exclusively over and against another who has a different gift.  Which are all from the same God.  

This is in line with the corrections of the Corinthians earlier in the book of Corinthians were Paul rebuked them for their divisiveness.  And no doubt they were putting great stock in various gifts as making them closer to God or superior to others.  Paul is stressing that it's not any one Corinthian in particular that is at the root of what is happening.  But rather God manifesting himself through all.

Anyone have any additional comments, corrections of what I have said, or disagreement so far?  

There are some important implications in just these few verses that contradict the practice in some Christian circles to put great emphasis on and to elevate some gifts over others as being more indicative of true spirituality.  One of the very problems Paul was addressing in these verses I think.  

Carlos  

Looking good, Carlos.

It might seem strange to consider that Paul introduced the phrase about "cursing Jesus" at this point, but again I will interject: Early on in Christianity a particular heresy began to arise, aided and abetted by prevalent Greek thought and philosophy. That was the Gnostic heresy. Simply put, gnosis (knowledge) stated that flesh is corrupt, and spirit is pure, and that spirit and flesh could not co-exist. Add to that from Judaic tradition and scripture that "whosoever hangeth on a tree is cursed", factor in that fact that Jesus was hung on a cross (from a tree), Judas hung himself from a tree, and you have the deranged notion that it was therefore spiritual to say Jesus was accursed. As flesh, He could not possibly be spiritual, or God incarnate. Thus arose the "Jesus is cursed" notion and saying.

At the same time, Paul iterated a foundational part of his argument that we see through all of his epistles, and that is a re-framing of something Jesus said.

Jesus said "no one comes unless the Father calls...", and then in John 18 talks of the Holy Spirit "convincing the world of sin, righteousness and judgment to come...". Paul, in Romans, says "whosoever confesses with his mouth....and believes in his heart", establishing the connection....God calls via revelation in our hearts through the Holy Spirit, we acknowledge that truth, then make confession while believing.

I'm in complete agreement that there is a difference between just the saying of the words, and the actual belief, as you point out.

Again, as you say, Paul makes certain that the groundwork is laid....God is in charge, He is in control, He dispenses, and all of the results work to the good of HIS plan, not ours.

I suspect that we will soon arrive at a point where some of the lurkers chime in...especially when we get to some other parts. ;D

Indeed we will get to some parts that are prone to be interpreted differently by various Christians.  But what is neat about our approach so far is that we are setting the groundwork that will help us properly understand and hopefully work through those parts to arrive at unity of thinking.  As God would have.  

I do not see this setting of the groundwork and working from a consensus of agreement undergirding most such discussions over this subject so I am hopeful :) and getting a bit excited.  

I really appreciate your excellent and valuable input Evangelist.  It rounds out my own comments and fleshes out what I believe God wants to say through these verses.  

Carlos

Danke!

I also meant to add in re the gnostic thought, that later on in 1, 2 and 3 John we see that again being refuted with John's insistence that the "spirit of anti-christ" is found in those who "do not confess that Jesus came in the flesh".

Blessings

Good point Evangelist.  Interesting how parts of the Scriptures attest to the truth of various other parts no?  

Alrighty then...continuing on with our discussion before the silent masses :)....


I took some liberty with the quote to make the list of gifts clearer in arranging the verses as I did.  

So far we have seen how Paul wanted the Corinthians to not be ignorant about the manifestations they were seeing among them.  As they had been regarding the manifestations they experienced when worshipping idols.  What they were seeing among them now was of God and He was working all these through them.  

Now Paul brings in the purpose of these manifestations. Namely that they are for the common good of the Corinthians.

He then begins to list some of the various manifestations of the Spirit among them.   Notice how much he emphasizes that these manifestations are from the Spirit.  The same Spirit of God.  

As a side note it is interesting that only certain gifts are emphasized in the Church of today even among charismatics.  Such as prophecy and tongues speaking.  It is also interesting to note how much emphasis is put on the manifestation of suppossedly genuine gifts in today's Church when Paul's main emphasis was on God.  Producing all such manifestations for the common good.  By the same Spirit.  By the one Spirit.  

It's a subtle shift from what Paul was saying but profoundly important to realize I think.  Paul was not emphasizing any one gift per se, at least not up to this point.  Rather he was focusing and trying to draw attention to the one God working out all of them among His people for the common good by His one Spirit.  He was not emphasizing the gifts themselves.  

How strange in some respects that some parts of the Church today put great emphasis on this or that particular manifestation of a gift.   It strikes me as odd to how God views things as we would view a person emphasizing how they breath in every conversation we have with them instead of just breathing and interacting with us in a more normal fashion.  

To sum up this section....

The gifts are given for the common good and are the manifestations of the one Spirit working through His people.  

Any other thoughts before I continue?  Are we in agreement so far?  

Carlos

As I was thinking about what we have discussed so far it dawned on me how far the Church of today has strayed into being just as divisive as the Corinthians were.  

May I venture to say the following?  

Wherever we find an emphasis on this or that gift in the Church of today as opposed to an emphasis on God we will find the flesh.  Rising up to take glory away from God and bringing  attention and glory to those people operating in said gift.  

Just as we find in the Corinthian Church!  




We so pride ourselves on being able to teach against the divisiveness and fleshly pride in the Corinthians yet remain blind to the same thing happening in us as a Church.   As individuals within that Church.  Like the Corinthians we too have been walking around in ignorance and in the flesh.  Rising up to boast in God's particular manifestations through us, rather than in the God who works out all of it through His one Spirit.  For the common good of all.  

How it must grieve the heart of God.  Loving Father to us all.  

Carlos

It's a good thing you brought up 1 Cor. 13 as the point at which to decide whether some gifts cease and others do not.  

When we turn to verses 8-13 we learn that (1) prophecies, (2) tongues, and (3) knowledge* would FAIL, CEASE, AND VANISH AWAY, which all mean the same thing -- STOP.

There's always argument about this by those who claim to speak in tongues ( but actually speak something else). However, while the apostles were on earth ,the NT Scriptures were being completed or "perfected". When the book of Revelation was completed, then Scripture was indeed perfected, and it is GOd-breathed (2 Tim. 3:16). We should strive to be satisified with Scripture, not go chasing after gifts which actually ceased.

We also know that the sign gifts -- signs, wonders, and miracles accompanied the apostles, and when the apostles left this scene, those also disappeared (Heb. 2:1-4). So in facts, many spiritual gifts are not operational today, and when claims are made about healing miracles for example, we discover that these are generally false claims. Also there can be real miracles from demonic sources which are meant to deceive.

Therefore we are left with all the gifts given for the edification of the saints. There's a considerable list, which is derived not just from 1 Corinthians, but from other portions of Scripture as well.

*which is not ordinary knowledge but supernaturally given knowledge of things not revealed earlier, such as revelation of the Church the body of Christ, with both Jews and Gentiles in it

Well thank God someone disagrees with my view that none of the gifts are intended by God to have ceased!  Great to hear from you Sower.  

Now we can trust God to help us work toward agreement in a spirit of humility heh?  Not as in agreement with me per se but as in agreement with the Word.  Perhaps I am not seeing some things correctly and you Sower or others on this forum may be able to be used by God to help me see that.  Or vice versa.  

So I look forward to discussing this more with you as we progress into 1 Cor 13 and then into 1 Cor 14.  

I'll continue with more verses after giving anyone else that cares to, a chance to say anything about what we have gone over so far.  

Is there any disagreement with anything I have shared so far Sower?  Other than that I am discussing gifts that in your view have ceased of course.  But I mean more in terms of what I believe Paul meant to say through the first few verses of 1 Cor 12?  Are we in agreement regarding that or does that need further discussion?  

Let's keep going one step at a time.  We will soon enough get to the parts over which Christians disagree in 1 Cor 13 centered on the meaning of the "perfect".   But unlike so many similar discussions that I have seen we will be in a much better position to move toward agreement when we have first come to agreement on the verses sorrounding 1 Cor 13 in context.  

Carlos

Okay then.  Since no one else has anything to add at this point in our thread I will continue :).

I am going to quote quite a few verses below in order to get through the material quicker.  I don't think too many would have differing opinions about what the following verses mean anyway so we can quickly get through it I think to the more controversial stuff while keeping in mind what we have gone over so far.  


Lot's of good stuff in there.  Basically I see Paul once again rephrasing and saying once again that the Holy Spirit is behind the manifestations that the Corinthians are experiencing.  And that God is at work in the Corinthian Church, through His Spirit, to place the gifts in operation however he desires to place them.  

Paul emphasizes that the Body is made of many members.  That the Body is Christ's Body and that all the members should work together as a Body to equally care for each other and express the life of Christ as a Body.  

Again the emphasis is on God working through His Spirit in the Body not on any particular manisfestation of a gift.  The gifts are many and varied.  The gifts can only be truly appreciated when seen in light of how they work together to glorify Christ through His Body, the Church.  

The whole thurst of what Paul is saying is so different from what we see in the Church today.  Today we see splits and divisions between those exercising various suppossed gifts and those who think they are not genuine.  We see some emphasize the need for this or that gift as evidence of being baptized with the Spirit and yet others saying that no such gift is neccessary.  Division, splits, arguing, endless debates and wranglings in a spirit of partisonship.  Where we are of the Baptists.  Or we are of the Dispensationalists.  Or we are of the need for freedom in Christ in expressing ourselves to God through tongues or otherwise.  

Paul would have rebuked the whole lot of us I think.  

It isn't that determining whether a gift is genuine or not is not important.  Rather it is the spirit with which we approach such a determination that is oftentimes wrong.  It is the underlying pride in our respective positions that leads us astray.  To bicker and fight and act more like children than spiritual adults.  

Paul has not so far said anything that would indicate that the gifts in question have ceased (we will get to that :)).  Nor has he denied what the Corinthians were experiencing in the exercise of said gifts however fleshly they were in their exercise of them.  Rather he was focusing the Corinthians back on Christ working for the common good according to His will within the Church, His Body.  

That was the starting point for the Corinthians learning how to use their gifts in line with God's desires and not their own.  Paul needed to set this foundation up before going on to talk about the specific way to operate in certain of the gifts.  

If anyone has any thoughts please feel free to share them.  

Carlos

Amen! Very good bible study through socratic dialogue I might add.  ;)  I have to disagree with


This is out of context. This verse does not mean that prophecies, tongues, or knowledge will stop or pass away. The entire verse is:


Paul is saying, Love will never ever fail whereas other things such as prophecies, tongues, and knowledge will (or pass away). I do not quite understand the rest of chapter 13. Input on that will help.

Thus, this does not say gifts of tongue and prophecy are not  around today. They still are here just as much as teaching, singing, etc. are all gifts in the body of Christ today.


On account of what seems to be troubling carlos: "gift envying", "gift fakers", "gift boasting", and possibly "gift projection". This has always been a problem in Churches throughout time. Satan obviously hates a body of believers working together, and he tries to make sure these problems split up Christ's church.

"Gift envying" is where we desire a gift that someone else has. I really like music, and I wish I could write songs as well as some friends; but God just didnt give me that gift. We must not envy something we don't have. Envying is not love. We must "eagerly desire the greater gifts" but at the same time follow Paul's way "and now I will show you the most excellent way." (cor 12:31) - the way of Love.

"Gift fakers." Gift envying may lead to people who desire a gift so much, that they pretend they have it. For instance, if I desired to be able in song writing; I may be lead to copy someone else's work and call it my own. This is bad.  :(

"Gift boasting" People who boast about what they can do in comparision to others.  Self-explanatory. As was quoted by carlos


Also

Glory belongs to God!


Lastly, "Gift projection". This is when we think everyone else has our abilities. Just because we are able to do something, we can't assume that everyone else can. You're a teacher and you can explain something very well. Then when you ask someone to explain something to you and they do a real crappy job, you can't get mad at them because you can help him but he can't help you in this aspect. The Holy spirit determines who should have what gift. "he gives them to each one, just as he determines." (cor 12:11)

In speaking about gifts, they don't just include the big ones (prophecy, healing, teaching) but EVERYTHING that goes on in the church. The man who goes to church every Sunday who does nothing but donate money has a gift, gift for giving. The person who cleans the church, gift for cleaning. The person who stands at the door and greets people, gift for greeting.  Each is important regardless of how small or big.



The reason there is so much dissention in the Church over gifts is because people are not practicing the greatest thing of all: Love!! It is the lack of Love that leads to this problem you see in the church today Carlos.


Gifts are not anywhere near faith, hope and love so why do people put what gifts they want or have after these three things??

Felix and Sower:
Thanks for jumping in!! As Carlos noted, we will be getting to the verses you speak of when we get there, but for right now we're just trying to do a careful exegesis of everything surrounding the "questionable" verses.

Carlos:

Small disagreement....I don't think that Paul is emphasizing that the manifestations occuring are all from God, nearly as much as he is stating the fact that that which IS from God, is given by God, and is given differently. This is an extremely important point.

We see in these verses that on believing in Jesus Christ, He does an immediate work. He baptizes (immerses) us IN the Holy Spirit, who  seals us (locks us up tight) against the day of redemption. We belong to God, lock, stock and barrel. The Holy Spirit then begins His portion of work....He dispenses to each born-again believer a gift. He makes the decision as to what gift it is. This is an implied statement, confirmed later, that everyone gets a different gift. While there may be many who have the "same" gift, there is no indication that everyone in a given church or group will all have the same gift.  This is by way of Paul setting up the argument to follow that everyone manifesting the same gift is an indication of something wrong.  "how is it (Paul asks) that when you all come together, EVERYONE has a message in tongues, and EVERYONE has an interpretation...".  Paul goes on to say (paraphrased) "I don't THINK so!!....that is NOT how it works."

Having early on brought in the references to pagan religion and practice, and then coming to this stage  is Paul's way of saying..."look and what you used to do....look at what you are doing....and look at the way God does it."

Of another note further into your quoted scriptures. Paul makes abundantly clear that the Holy Spirit places members in the church where He wants them.  Something we too often ignore. We tend to go where WE want, to hear a preacher WE like, or to participate in worship that fits OUR psyche.  Not good. We need to work harder at learning to hear where God wants us, WHY He wants us there, and then to DO what He wants, rather than what WE want.

It's great to see some input on the thread ya all :).  


Well put Felix!  Thank you.  


I think you have a point Evangelist now that I have had a chance to think about it some more.  I can see where the emphasis is not so much that ALL  manifestations they may have been experiencing were of God but rather that those which were ascribed to God by the Corinthians were just that.  Of God.  Given as He willed to members of His Body for the common good.

Not something the Corinthians could take pride in as coming from themselves in any way.  

Carlos

I guess I will continue then.  We are now about to get to some verses that may stir up some controversy so I am going to be as careful as I can, given the context we have built up, to express what I believe Paul is saying just right.  So that disagreement and controversy won't lead us, as is so often the case, into bickering and arguing.  Please join me in praying that God will draw us toward agreement in a spirit of humility through the next sections.

As we enter the next sections please keep in mind that those of us who are Christians are brothers and sisters.  Worshipping the same God who is our common Father.  That none of us are superior to any other and that we are all unworthy before God and saved only by His grace.  

I have taken some liberty, as previously, to arrange the verses so as to make the logical progression found in them clearer.  Unfortunately my posts along with that of others will get a bit longer since there will be more to discuss in the following sections.  Hopefully one's will have the patience to read them at length.  


God has appointed.  Now there's a mouthful that we could chew on for a while.  It's almost as if Paul is being overly repetitious.  He keeps pointing to God.

In the next few verses Paul makes it clear that there is a varying pecking order, if you will, among the gifts.  First .... second .... and so forth.

But what does that mean?  We have seen that all the gifts came from God and that no Corinthian could boast of having a gift as though they had not
received it.  So why this distinction of first...second...and so forth?  

I personally believe that Paul's distinction refers to the varying degree to which one gift has greater or lessor influence on the Body than another gift.  Not to whether one gift is inheritantly superior to any other.  Only different in influence for the common good.  For example the gift of apostle was influential in starting churches.  Whereas the gift of administration might have been more influential at the local level within a local body of believers.  There are exceptions of course since even an apostle might have needed to have some help from those gifted in administration or to have that gift themselves but I think my point is still valid.  

Next Paul makes a point that not all have every gift as Evangelist mentioned before.  A point made by asking questions whose obvious answer is no.  All do not ....?  No.  It's interesting to note how many times Paul uses the word "all" and how many times he asks the same question with a mention of a different gift.  It's as if Paul was trying to hit every bit of pride and arrogance on the part of any Corinthians reading this over the exercise of THEIR particular gift.  

Finally Paul concludes with the statement in the last verse "But earnestly desire the greater gifts...".  In other words he has struck down their pride but now he is bringing them back to a balanced view of the gifts and encouraging them to seek the greater gifts for the greatest common good of the Church.  Not as a way to inflate themselves.  

Note the contrast between "God has appointed" and "earnestly desire the greater gifts".  The contrast between predestination where God wills what He wills to happen such that no one can oppose His will and our free will where we are free to choose.  Let's not get into a predestination/free will debate.  I just wanted to suggest that apparently we do have some degree of influence in determining whether God will appoint us to have some gift or not.  Namely through our desires.  If we want a greater gift (as a Body and as individuals within that Body) it is very possible that God will bless us with such.

Lastly Paul says "And I show you a still more excellent way."  Now that he has tied off all of chapter 12 he now introduces what he will be talking about in chapter 13.  

Which brings us full circle back to my original questions.  What is the way that Paul is contrasting against?  To say there is a more excellent way implies that there is a another way that is not so excellent.  Without getting into the details of the more excellent way just yet, what is that previous way that is implied?  A way to what?  

Personally I think it has to do with the way in which God manifests his Presence within His Body.  The previous way, the less excellent way, has to do with God manifesting His Presence through spiritual gifts.  But there is a better, more excellent way in which God's Presence in the Body can be seen and it is that better way that Paul is about to explain.  In short the way of love.  

Would anyone care to add anything at this point?  

Carlos

I really like how this is developing! I hope I am flowing with the progression here.


In the paragraph:

It is even more important to note the verse right before that which is:


This is extremely important to note. We are a body of Christ. To make an analogy, look at your body. Obviously, the heart and brain are the essential parts of your body. Now your fingers and eyes aren't. You can still survive without your fingers and eyes. BUT look at your hands right now. Would you be happy if you had both of your thumbs cut off? Note what you are seeing. Suppose you couldn't see at all! You would still survive but the quality of your life would be as good as it should be.

Likewise, God appointed things that came first in the church in much the same way that our heart in our body comes first to our survivial. We would not be alive if our hearts were not working. A church would not be alive if there were not apostles to start them.

 

You certainly are Felix!  I appreciate your input very much.  We most certainly are a body.  We need to be reminded of that constantly.  

You know it's kind of funny as an aside but have you all ever had your eyes more opened to something of the Lord in the sharing of it with others?  Well mine were after I wrote my last post.  It dawned on me how profound the most excellent way is that Paul is talking about in 1 Cor 13.  As demonstrating the living reality of God in the midst of us, His Body.  

We all want to teach as those who are gifted to teach.  We all want to to be recognized as gifted and very spiritual.  At least we do in our flesh.  But how many of us desire to be recognized for our Christ-like love?  How many of us really walk with Christ-like love in our everyday lives?  Before our wives and children?  I don't know about you all but I am so lacking in Christ-like love for those around me that I am the worst example of Christ that I know.  I am not saying that to sound spiritual.  That's the honest to God's truth!  And I say that to my shame.  

If one were to look at my life one would not readily see Christ.  

And that which is so lacking in my life is that very thing that is so lacking in the Church.  Christ-like love.  God is love.  He is not loving.  He IS love.  He is the very essence of what love is.  He cannot help but be loving.  His love is pure and unblemished by selfishness.  His love is just and true.  Pure and noble.  Kind and gentle and firm and perfect.  

And you know something?  Love...genuine love...the kind that hurts, the kind that will believe the best of others, the kind that embodies the essence of who God is, IS the surest sign of God's living presence among His people.  If we do not have that we do not have God!  Oh I don't mean not have Him as in not have relationship with Him.  I mean we do not have God visibly present in our midst.  That others might see Him through us.  

I'll tell you something.  I would travel to the far flung corners of the Earth to be with Christians who have such love if I could and drop everything to be around such love.  For to be around such love would be to experience God within His Body in a way that I cannot experience Him alone.  I have felt the touch of our loving Father within my own heart at times and it has been as a drink of cold water to a thirsty soul.  But I can recount on one hand the numbers of times in my life that I have truly felt loved within His Church.  I mean really loved just as God loves me.  

I see no such love around me now in my everyday life.  Not among the Christians.  Not in myself.  Nowhere.  Sometimes I wonder if God is really there.  I would wonder no more I think if His love were to shine through the Church to illuminate the darkness of this world.  But it doesn't and His love remains hidden.  Out of sight.  Only known by us individually within our hearts but not often displayed to others looking in.  

What a sad state of affairs we are in.  The God Almighty who loved us so much that He stooped down to send His only Son to die for our sins hidden from sight.  Obscured from view by those of us who claim to be His own.  We preach and preach and preach and teach and teach and teach on Him who died for us yet we do not love.  

My eyes wet with tears as I write this.  We are so bankrupt of love.  So devoid of that which best exhibits the living presence of God among us.  It is no wonder the world does not see Him in us.  For we do not love each other as He loves us.  

If anyone feels offended by anything I have said please don't take it personally.  It is not directed at anyone in particular.  I am just trying to express how greatly we, starting with myself first, need to hear about the most excellent way that Paul will be describing as we continue with this discussion.  

Carlos

Carlos, Felix....thanks!

Before we go on, I think it might be a good idea to tarry for just a moment on that passage you just posted, Carlos.

While chapters 12, 13, 14 are primarily speaking (in most minds) about the charismata (spirituals), we suddenly have here an insertion of "doma", which is a different kind of gift entirely. Contrast 12:28 with the passage in Ephesians, and again in Romans concerning gifting.

The doma are the specific gifts that Jesus has given to the church, as opposed to the charismata which is bestowed on all believers by the Holy Spirit.

As noted in Ephesians, the doma are "apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers".

Please note that pastors and teachers is a single classification, rather than two separate ones.

The doma are related (primarily) to administrative (for the body in general) functions that establish order and doctrine within the body, as opposed to the charismata, which are for edification and exhortation of the body (primarily).

Of further interest is that in examining all of scripture, we tend to see the "doma" gifts flowing in a large number of charismata, but we do not see those with charismata flowing in a large number (or all) of the doma.

Example: Peter (a doma) exhibits healing, miracles, prophecy, tongues, knowledge, wisdom (charismata) pretty consistently throughout his ministry. On the other hand, we don't see (or read) of ???? (daughters of Phillip) who exhibit prophecy (charismata) doing much else.

Can we understand or learn more at this point if we were to examine and clarify the doma just a bit? One of today's big things is the "absolute necessity" for the "five-fold" ministry to be re-instituted. Some even declare that it is necessary to be exhibited in every individual church for that church to be "flowing with God", or a "true new testament church".

This might seem like a rabbit trail, but............

There are indeed different words in the Greek that are used to refer to gifts and spiritual gifts Evangelist.  Thanks for pointing that out.  And there is something to be said for studying what was meant by those words and how the variences of meaning might apply in helping us understand the gifts/spiritual gifts and how they are meant by God to operate within His Body.  

I think though that it might be best to continue on our present course to understanding the "perfect" in the context of 1 Cor 12, 13, and 14 as you previously suggested Evangelist.  Bypassing the issue of which category of gift/spiritual gift some might fall into. Which would involve going off to discuss verses in Ephesians and elsewhere in the Bible.  

I see a potential for getting way of course if we start discussing what categories of gifts some might fall into.  Finding ourselves not only having to contend with a difference of opinion on whether the gifts are around for today or not but also on differences of opinion on which gifts fit into what category, whether there are categories, and what that implies for us today.  A real mish mash of disagreements all tossed together into this thread which would not help us move toward agreement one step at a time.  

Many Christians reading this thread have a disagreement on the more general issue of whether some of the gifts Paul mentioned in 1 Cor 12 are still around for today or not.  If one is inclined to believe that some are not then it matters little what category of gift they might fall under and what the implications of that are for us today.  For they do not believe in such gifts being relevant for today at all.  There is no today about it for them.  

Does that make sense Evangelist?  What do you think?  Is it okay by you if we bypass this issue and keep heading toward the "perfect"? I just want to avoid bringing in too many issues into this thread that might lead us off into tangents of disagreement not directly related to the subject of this thread.  

Perhaps we could start an alternate thread to discuss the categories of the various gifts?  

Carlos

Most surely this is the workings of the HOLY SPIRIT inside you. It is the counselor that reveals to you the things from God.


He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you?? Hmm...I know what that is...love!



Yes, that explains and clarifys a whole lot about the gifts in the church.

Carlos:
Agreed, as long as it is crystal clear that the doma and charismata are two distinct things, and not to be confused with each other, even though both are from God.


And yet, the receipt and/or use of a specific gift is totally dependent upon God...."...given to men severally (individually) as HE wills...".

While we may desire much, there is this controlling factor of HIS will, and we cannot always discern His perfect (or even permissible) will, Job being a prime example. Sometimes, we just don't know...or have the answer.

Also, Jesus pointed out that whoever is faithful in the small things will be entrusted with more.

Next.

Thanks for your understanding Evangelist.  I will carry on later tonight as I only have a minute just now.  

I am not sure about the doma and charismata being two different types of gifts having different characteristics as different groups.  Opposed to just having different characteristics as individual gifts.  I will have to think about that some.  You may be entirely right Evangelist.  I am just not sure about that one.  

If you want to start a seperate thread on that maybe we could discuss that more at length?  I will watch for such a thread if you start one and join in.

Until later tonight then.  

Carlos

Continuing with 1 Corinthians....


One could write a whole book on the above verses but I will try to confine myself to that which might give us some insight on the issue of whether the full list of gifts mentioned by Paul in these chapters is still around for today or whether they have ceased.  

Paul begins by saying that if we do not have love then we have nothing.  We may well be able to exercise this or that gift but if love is not the pre-iminent motivation of our hearts then all our exercising amounts to nothing and profits no one.  Paul then goes on to describe what love is.  

For purposes of our discussion I would like to chew on the the following phrase, "and know all mysteries and all knowledge".  This phrase uses two words associated with knowledge.  

The first one translated in the NASB as "know" is eido (transliterated Greek word).  It is used 666 times in the New Testament and is the root word for lots of other words.  If 666 is the number of Satan then I suppose one might be able to make something of the fact that it is used 666 times :).  

From what I can gather from it's definition in various online Bible tools it basically means to know as we might understand the English word.  To know all mysteries then would be to comprehend or fathom all mysteries.    The King James Version translates this word as "understand".  

The word translated as "knowledge" on the other hand is much more focused in usage.  It is the word gnosis and it is used only 29 times in the New Testament.  Some of it's uses include ....

"...knowledge of salvation..." (Luke 1:77)
"...wisdom and knowledge of God!" (Romans 11:33)
"...we know that we all have knowledge..." (1 Cor 8:1)
"...to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge..." (Ephesians 3:19)

The way I understand it, to know something is to personally comprehend or understand it whereas knowledge is a more static thing as in some knowledge that we might find in a book, be told of, or hear from others without neccessarily comprehending or understanding it.  

I guess the short of it is that to know means pretty much to know and knowledge means pretty much knowledge as we understand these English words.  

Maybe that's why the translators chose these English words to represent the Greek words in our Bibles :).  

The connection between "know" and "knowledge" is most clearly brought out by 1 Corinthians 8:1 where it says...


Forgive my lengthy post but it is vitally important that we come to agreement regarding what kind of knowledge Paul is talking about here.  For  in 1 Cor 13:8 Paul says that when the perfect comes prophecy, tongues, AND knowledge (gnosis) will pass away.  

If knowledge is a gift of knowledge that is somehow different than static knowledge then it might be reasonable to conclude, if the context supports it, that such a gift has passed away.  But if knowledge is just static knowledge as one might get from reading a book then it would make no sense to say that it has passed away since we still know knowledge to this day.  

One other thing I would like to point out.  Paul does not mention all the gifts he does in 1 Cor 12, at the beginning of 1 Cor 13.  He only mentions tongues, prophecy, and faith (though knowledge and giving of oneself to the poor and giving one's body to be burned might be seen as being exhibitions of some gift I suppose).  

Some believe that 1 Cor 13:8 only applies to tongues, prophecy, and knowledge as passing away when the perfect comes and not to everything else.  And yet what grounds do we have for saying that 1 Cor 13:8 only applies to what is mentioned there explicitly while saying in the next breath that love superceeds not only tongues, prophecy, and faith but all things not explicitly mentioned at the beginning of 1 Cor 13 as well.  

It seems to me that we either acknowledge that love superceeds ALL...AND ...that ALL gifts will cease or else that love superceeds ONLY that which Paul explicitly says it does and that ONLY those gifts mentioned in 1 Cor 13:8 will cease when the perfect comes.  

We cannot have both love superceding all things, even those things not mentioned, and then turn around and say that ONLY the gifts mentioned in 1 Cor 13:8 will cease when the perfect comes.  That is not a very logical way to view what Paul is saying I think.  Indeed I see nothing in the context to warrant making a distinction of generality on the one hand, regarding what love superceeds, and exclusivity on the other, regarding what will pass away when the perfect comes.  

Paul is making points through these verses and using various gifts to highlight his points.  He is not stating a definite and exclusive list of gifts that are superceeded by love nor is he saying that only tongues, prophecy, and knowledge will pass away when the perfect comes.  

His point is that ALL is superceded by love and that ALL gifts will pass away when the perfect comes.  

Does that make sense?  I know I jumped ahead a bit but it seemed naturaly to expand on this a bit at this point in our thread.  

Carlos

Carlos:

I'll wait to start a thread on doma until after we finish this one.

I'm in agreement with you in re: knowledge and knowing being two different things in terms of usage, the knowing being much deeper and all-encompassing than just knowledge, or book-learning.

I also agree that Paul's point here is not to limit or exclude any gifts, but to only use certain ones (probably the most abused of them) to explain clearly the controlling factor in the use of any gift...that being love....further, the "love" spoken of here is definitively "agape", or the love of God...the one way nothing expected in return type of love that can ONLY come from Him.

This love is the only applicable controlling factor in any expression of any gift...or life itself.

I have enjoyed this thread so far but mostly I think I have been discussing with those who agree with the basic premise that the gifts mentioned in 1 Cor 12, 13, and 14 are still around for today.  

They may be used in ways God did not intend and they may be misunderstood but they are around for the Church in today's times.  

My hope is still that someone who disagrees with what I believe to be God's view and reads this thread might speak up and give us their alternate Scriptural viewpoint.  So that we might have a chance to discuss any difference and move toward agreement.  

I look forward to discussing the doma vs charismatic dimension of the gifts with you Evangelist when this thread wraps up at the end of 1 Cor 14.   The way I have been quoting large groups of verses and expressing what I think they say without much in the way of contrary opinion, we will be at that point quite soon :).  

Carlos

 ;D

Oh, don't worry....we're getting close to that point, I think.    ::)

Okay then...continuing ever onward we come to the heart of our topic....


The above verses are a study in contrast.  Here's my take on what Paul is saying...

Love (agape or God's type of love as Evangelist pointed out) will never fail compared to prophecy, tongues, and knowledge (knowledge being the the Greek word gnosis here - discussed in a previous post) but more generally compared to the gifts Paul has been covering up this point.  Fail in the sense of passing away or be no more.  

Bear in mind the context.  Just previous to this Paul was highlighting the pre-iminence of love compared to the gifts.  His thoughts here just re-enforce the supremacy of love.  Not only does love supercede the gifts (1 Cor 13:1-3) but it will also never fail compared to the gifts.  

Next, with the word "For..." Paul expands on the failing nature of the gifts by pointing out that they are imperfect.  Partial.  Not complete.  In pointing to and expressing all that Christ is (based on the context we have gone over in this thread).  

Paul then, with "But...", introduces that which will take the place of what will pass away "...when the perfect comes..."   The perfect will take the place of that which will pass away (i.e. the gifts).  And unlike that which will pass away, the perfect will express and reveal the fullness of who Christ is.

It will be perfect.  Complete.  

When Paul wrote this the imperfect (or the gifts) were in operation.  The perfect (not sure what that is yet) was yet to come.  And thus Paul could say that we (in his here and now) "...know in part and we prophesy in part;".  

The perfect and the partial cannot co-exist.  When the perfect comes the partial will be done away with and cease.  If the partial is here then the perfect has not yet come.  

If any of the gifts mentioned by Paul, which are imperfect are still around today, then the perfect has not yet come.  If the perfect has come then NONE of the gifts mentioned by Paul are still around.  For the perfect has superceded them in the same sense that love is pre-iminent over everything else.  

Either Paul was lumping all gifts into the imperfect as passing away when the perfect comes or else he was singling out only tongues, prophecy, and knowledge.  Either Paul was saying that ALL gifts and ALL that we do is superceded by love or else only tongues, prophecy, knowledge, faith, giving our bodies to be burned, and giving all that we possess to feed the poor are.  

Which gifts will pass away when the perfect comes?

- faith
- tongues
- prophecy
- knowledge
- words of knowledge
- words of wisdom
- administration
- healing
- distinguishing of spirits
- effecting of miracles
- interpretation of tongues
- apostles
- teachers
- helps

This is not a definitive and exclusive list mind you.  Only those mentioned by Paul in 1 Cor 12 and 13.  

Have all these truly passed away?  Then and only then can we say that there are grounds for believing that the perfect is now here.

One other point....

The gifts are given to His Body which is presently comprised of different members.  Namely us.  They operate together within the Church to reveal Christ.  No one of us is able to exhibit Christ through our individual body alone.  Rather Christ is best exhibited, as partial as that may still be, through all of us in His Body operating together.

When the perfect comes Christ will be revealed in such a way that there is no partiality about it.  It will be full and complete.  

It is my opinion that the partial nature of the Body such that it is comprised of different members will cease to be.  And that the fullness of God will fill all in all such that the partial nature of Christ revealed through the Church will be complete.  The partial passing away.

Would anyone care to add anything to what I have said or express any differences?  

Carlos

Now we're there.

Your list of gifts, I don't think, is really necessary for consideration at this point. We are faced squarely with the necessity of acknowledging several things.

First, that any of the gifts (no matter where named or what they are) are in part, or incomplete, as they themselves are not perfect as Paul (and Carlos) point out.

Even those gifts that are expressed (manifested) in the perfect love of Christ, and can therefore be faultless, are still not the complete or whole manifestation of Christ Himself, and His love. Paul makes this abundantly clear with continual references to the fact that any ONE member of the body of Christ is just that....only one small part, and that all parts need each other to function properly.

By the same token, the gifts listed show that one gift needs another to be properly expressed and understood. Knowledge needs wisdom, or how to properly apply the knowledge gained. Tongues need an interpretation, and so on.

Where the fun begins is with trying to understand "that which is perfect".
Every study bible I have cross references this verse "when that which is perfect is come..." to

1Jo 3:2   Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

The word perfect is teleos, and means:
1) brought to its end, finished
2) wanting nothing necessary to completeness
3) perfect
4) that which is perfect

Let's look at
Jhn 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished:  and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

When Jesus spoke these words, He indicated that the battle was over, the fight was finished, His assignment was absolutely complete, and there was nothing left to be done. The word "it is finished" is teleo, and is in the perfect (done deal for all time), passive voice and indicative mood.  In other words....its over, absolutely and final.

I don't think that there will be too much contention over the fact, as shown in scripture, that Jesus is the ONLY perfect, complete, and finished one (thing) that is, or will be. Not until we are glorified, and made to be like Him will we be perfect.

By the same token, there is nothing on this earth that can be considered perfect and lacking nothing to be complete.

Some apologists maintain that Paul's references here were preparatory to the point in time when the canon of scripture would be closed, and portended the replacement of the gifts with the canon, which would include all necessary revelation and prophecy that would be needed until the end of the age. As a result, they believe that the reference to "that which is perfect shall come" was direct reference to the introduction of the New Testament collected writings, or canon.

This of necessity leads to a series of questions.
1. If this is the case, then why do all (most) study bibles reference the verse to 1 Jn 3, which is direct reference to the appearing of Jesus Christ?
2. Although the canon has been closed, it must be admitted that that canon is subject (and has been for 18 centuries) to some measure of debate over what is or is not canon. Is that perfect?
3. While we have in our hands over 5000 fragments of original, or nearly original texts, there is some measure of disagreement between some of those texts. Wouldn't that which is perfect be in absolute agreement in all instances?


"When that which is perfect is come" is a direct reference to the return of Jesus Christ, at which point in time all born-again believers will be translated from corruption to incorruption, from mortality to immortality, from partial understanding to full understanding. Simply put, only Jesus is perfect...and until He comes, imperfection will remain.  Thus, if imperfection is still present, then gifts are still present.

Notice also how Paul then goes into verses (not yet quoted) about how we are NOW looking through a glass darkly (one obscured, hazy, hard to see through, and full of dirt and grime....our imperfection), but THEN (when?) shall we see clearly.

Well put Evangelist.  I perceive that you have a way with words in terms of describing some things that I have tried to describe more clearly than I :).  

I especially like the reference to 1 John 3:2.  That's an excellent verse that seems to be exactly in line with what Paul is talking about. Using even some similar terminology.  

As to the perfect being Jesus I am not sure about that myself.  Certainly Jesus is indeed the only perfect thing (if I can say thing) about all this.  As you rightly point out.  

Yet I wonder if the perfect in 1 Cor 13 refers not to Jesus per se but rather to that state of being that we will attain to on his return or something like that.  Not directly referring to Jesus but rather to something related.  

The idea that the perfect refers to the completed canon of Scripture in my thinking is entirely and completely unsupported in the context unless someone reading this can show us different of course :).  Indeed I see such a belief as only supportable through the bringing into the discussion various extra biblical ideas and opinions about dispensations, supposed gender nuances of Greek words, and the like.  Certainly not from a plain reading of the Scriptures.  

Carlos

PS.  As for my long list of gifts...well...hmm...I did overdo it I guess in terms of listing them all :).  It's just that some reading this thread might not have looked up the verses and I didn't want them to miss my point.  That some of the gifts are obviously still around (i.e faith, knowledge, etc.) in the midst of others that they might view as not being.  

Carlos:
To a certain degree, there is agreement...however (ahem).

The word used for "to come" is erchomai, and defined well as:
1) to come
    a) of persons
1) to come from one place to another, and used both of persons
    arriving and of those returning
2) to appear, make one's appearance, come before the public

As you can see, it is very specific in reference to a person or persons, rather than as an event, or a grouping, or a command to complete an action.

In other locations, the word come is most often sunerchomai. While similar, it carries a connotation of assemblage, which would fit more closely with your postulate.

Agreed that when Jesus comes again, our "state of being" as described by Paul in 1 Cor 15, and again in Thessalonians, will match His state....but He has to come first.

 I think I'll shut up for awhile and see if the fish are biting.  ;D

To be sure thar don't seem to be too many fish in this ther hole :).  

Carlos

Well put evangelist and carlos.

As a side note, there were some problems with the debate thread. I think this would be a great model for a constructive debate.

THE CHARISMATIC MOVEMENT – THEN AND NOW

http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?board=3;action=display;threadid=1377

Mark Sixteen
AND THE MODERN TWISTERS

http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?board=3;action=display;threadid=1377

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Brother Love :)

<:)))><

Brother Love:

If you have anything of value to add that comes from you, and the use of scripture, we would definitely welcome it.

If not, why take up the forums valuable bandwidth by posting nothing?

I totally agree Evangelist. Pointing us to long studies is not going to help us move toward agreement.  

Entering into the discussion, however much one may disagree, and personally bringing one's views into it supported by Scripture will.  Assuming one's come into the discussion with an attitude of humility of course.  

If you are willing Brother Love can you not comment on the verses we have been looking at in 1 Cor 13 and the meaning of the perfect as you see it?  Without bringing in material that ranges far and wide in covering other aspects of this issue?  

Thanks.  

Carlos

NOTHING ;D

Forgive me Brother Love but your response is .... well ... ahem ... rather unusual :).  

A capitalized word "NOTHING" with a grimace face next to it?

Can you not be more specific?  Have my comments along with those of others on this thread being so irrefutable that all you can say is "NOTHING"?  I truly am willing to hear you out if you care to share but "NOTHING" doesn't leave me with much to work with.  It certainly does not help to bring the light of God's truth into the thread, assuming that your view - whatever that is - reflects what God thinks.  

Carlos

From the "Charismatic Movement-Then and Now" thread referenced by BL


Please note the self-contradiction contained herein. First, that in Paul's later epistles, all of the sign gifts had disappeared. Then please note that the "perfect" is being designated as when Paul's full revelations are given, when the New Testament is finished, that being when the sign gifts cease.

The New Testament was not finished until 95 AD, about 30 years after Paul died, and yet by the time Paul was in prison, the gifts had "ceased".  Which is it, please? Also, the NT as a collection was not settled as such, and canonized until 325AD, and is still in some measure contentious as to what is or is not a part of the NT.

Secondly, as noted in prior posts, the belief that it is the New Testament writings in themselves which are the "perfect" does not fit with either the word that Paul chose to use descriptively, nor does it fit with what centuries worth of noted and notable scholars cross-reference the word to.


1Cr 12:7   But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

Why was not the BIBLICAL reason for the gifts given? (rhetorical question). Because the reasons given don't fit with a preconceived notion.

What I find truly amazing when hearing about the perfect being the Bible is the way those who believe this are not able to point out support for their position straight from the Bible.  

They make statements like in the snippet below which you quoted Evangelist ....


And expect everyone to just believe what they have said without any kind of Scriptural support for it.  They often say that history supports the belief that the canon resulted in the loss of the gifts for their argument cannot be made from the Scriptures alone.  But using history is a very shakey and unreliable way to determine what God means in the Word.  For history is the history of man whose heart is prone to evil such that it often does not point to God's view of things.  

First we determine what God says in His Word.  In the clear and plain meaning of the words there.  Then we bring God's understanding to history.  Not the other way around.  

If anyone reading this thinks different please feel free to speak up.  Your head won't be bitten off :).  Perhaps there is something in the view of the Bible being the perfect that I am not seeing or understanding.

Carlos

Amen. Totally agree.

I also think this a valid point for the argument.

In Revelations 11:3 "And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.", state that there will be 2 prophets in the future. Perhaps it's logical to reason that if prophesy is still needed in the future, then the perfect has not yet come.

That is very interesting about the 2 prophets Felix.  I never realized that before (probably because I rarely read Revelations).  If the perfect was the canon of Scripture then one would certainly have a hard time explaining why these two persons would not have been just quoting Scripture instead of prophesying.  

Of course to prophesy is not just to tell the future.  It can also involve speaking to men for edification, exhortation, and encouragement which can be done by quoting Scripture and explaining it.  

But the fact that the Greek word translated "prophesy" in Rev 11:3 (which has to do with end time events) is the same exact word as used in 1 Cor 14:3 when it says "But he that prophesieth..." is a powerful argument in support of the perfect not having yet come.  

Glad you pointed that out Felix!  

Carlos

We have the "COMPLETE"Word of God. Benny Hinn is out of a job :)

<:)))><

I completely agree. Have I said otherwise?


Excuse me? I don't recall this thread being about an apostate modern day version of Balaam. But if you want to get technical about it, because "my people love to have it so", Benny and his ilk will continue in their "jobs" for some time.....it's just the retirement benefits that will be lacking!! ;D

Pardon one moment:


ROFL!  ;D



Sorry - carry on!  :-X

Behold!  What is this?  A voice from among the otherwise silent masses is heard crying in the wilderness ....


Good suggestion sincereheart :).  I think I shall....

Now that we have had a chance to get to know one another better through comments made over Benny Hinn, extraneous Bible studies, and short non-interactive posting why don't we get back to looking at 1 Corinthians...

Let's see we left off at 1 Cor 13:10 I believe so continuing on...


Here Paul brings in an analogy to give insight into what he means in verse 10.  The analogy of being like a child vs being like an adult.  

In other words to know and prophesy in part vs fully is like the differnce between being childish and being like an adult.

In line with the nature and purpose of his analogy Paul is not referring to spiritual childhood vs becoming spiritually mature.  Rather he is referring to physical childhood vs real, physical adulthood as happens when a child grows up to be a man.  

Compared to how it will be when the perfect comes we all walk around as children do.  We speak like children, think like children, and reason like children.  We see in a mirror dimly and we know only in part.  

But when the perfect comes we will put the childlike nature of our present speaking, thinking, and reasoning behind.  Such that we will see things face to face not as in a mirror dimly as we do now and we will know fully just as we also have been fully known by God.  

It strikes me how incredible it will be when the perfect comes and how unscriptural it is to believe that the perfect has already come.  We still to this day walk about as children in comparison to how it will be when the perfect comes.  I don't know about you but I sure don't see us exercising our spiritual gifts in a way that fully expresses and shows forth who God is in his fullness.  We certainly do not know as fully as we are presently known by God.  

To say that the perfect has already come is to say that we are now in a state of manifesting God perfectly through the Church and knowing fully just as we are known.  To me that seems to be quite ignorant of the partial nature in which we still operate. I hesitate to use the word ignorant but that is how I believe God sees it.  

It is somewhat akin to a child walking around insisting that he is an adult when all around hiim can see that he is not.  If it were not for the way such a view contradicts what God's is and hinders his work in the Church it would be utterly funny to see a child insisting that he is a man.  

Perhaps there might even be an element of pride in there somewhere too.  In saying that whatever God (as our Father) might say about our state of childhood is not true and that we know better than Him.

Any further thoughts or input?

Carlos

[qquote]"For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. "

"1Cr 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. "
Just a little expansion on your thought, Carlos. These verses make reasonably clear that Paul is foreseeing the time when our imperfect bodies are made perfect, our unclear minds are brightened and illuminated with the full understanding of God, and that this occurs ONLY when:

Tts 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

1Cr 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1Th 4:16   For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17   Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
 
1Jo 3:3   And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

1Cr 15:52   In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Cr 15:53   For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.

we come face to face with our perfect savior, Jesus Christ. Notice in the last part of 1 Cr. 13:12, the "...just as I also have been fully known."

Jesus knows, perfectly, the thoughts and intents of our hearts. He knows us better than we could ever know ourselves (in the flesh). Paul is saying that since this is true, He has perfect knowledge and understanding of us, there will be a day when we will then "know, even as also I am known".

It's good to know others are reading...even if there isn't much said.


On a slightly different tack, but considering the interjection of extraneous material and "accusations", I want to state the following unequivocally.

I am not a charismaniac, nor a charismatic, nor a pentecostal, nor an AoG, nor a cessationist, nor a dead in the pew baptist, methodist, episcopalian, lutheran, etc. ad nauseum.

I was discipled to believe, and do believe, that the Word of God is exactly that....HIS Word, and that it is not subject to "private interpretation", but will always verify itself with itself (and that is NOT circular reasoning).

I have never spoken in tongues, and probably never will (the Lord once told me I could talk to Him in any language I wanted....He understands them all). I have heard (and seen) many speaking in tongues...and in almost all instances, I would, by the witness of the Holy Spirit, put those exhibitors in the same class as the Corinthians. Notice I said "almost all".

I make no claim to any of the gifts enumerated, although  I know that some have been exhibited in ministry, and fully and unequivocally met the standards imposed by the Word of God, which is the only "verifying" rule.

Abuse and misuse of the power and gifts of God are rampant....but that does not invalidate HIS power, HIS distribution and HIS use of them through vain, imperfect and finite jars of clay.

Rom 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

Excellent post Evangelist!  Thank you.  

Very insightful verses you selected.  

I especially liked how you put the following.  It very succincly and accurately describes what is going on in the Church today.  


AMEN!!  

What is most encouraging for me personally is that, given that the perfect has not yet come, that there will be a day when Christ WILL be fully revealed.  There will come a day when our partial speaking, thinking, resoning, will be no more.  When we shall know as fully as we are now known by God.  

There is true hope for the future.  When the perfect comes.  

That all the imperfectness of the Church will someday, perhaps soon, be no more and that she will shine with the glory of Christ revealed in all His majesty and surpassing greatness in her midst.  What a glorious day that will be!  

If I was of the school that believed that the perfect had already come it would be downright depressing.  By virtue of having to conclude that what  is yet to come is already here.  And what an imperfect perfect that is.  

Carlos