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I posted this a little while ago under the 'Homosexuality' thread in the 'Debate' folder, in answer to the predominate opinion in that thread that homosexual behavior is a choice, and that there are no born homosexuals.  After thinking about it, I decided to make it a separate thread:

Sinners are born, but there are no born sinners?  Even though we are the seed of Adam – sin is still a choice?  Just because we may be “inclined” to sin doesn’t mean we sin without some forethought?  Is sin always a choice in every instance?

We are All born sinners and are still sinners even though we are Saved.  Only Jesus can Cleanse us with His Blood, for without His Blood, there is No Attonement for our sins.

Some people are born different, that does Not mean they sinned!! It's the Way God made them!  For example; I still suffer from pain from my birth defect, did I sin to have this No.

I see it this way about my birth defect;

John 9:1-5

1   AND as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
   2   And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
   3   Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.
   4   I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
   5   As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.
   

Holy Bible -- King James Version

No one is the same in this World God made, Thank God too! It would be a Very boring World if we were all the same!  Genes are Genes we inherit from our family line. No Two people are genetically the same!

So, Please Love them that are different, We all need Love (http://www.threadsdev.com/forum/graemlinlibrary/heartpump.gif)

Blessings,  \o/

KristiAnn

It seems simple enough, on the surface, but it really isn't, is it?

People are born men or women, some are born man & woman (two sexes in one body, physically), some are born conjoined.

Is a homosexual inclination born into a person? Or is it developed later? I don't know....but I do know someone who certainly appears to have been born that way. Let me ask another question - if a person is (and I'm not saying they are) born with those homosexual inclinations but remains celibate all their life and chooses Christ, does that still make them an abomination, or is it the homosexual act that does it? Is the celibacy repentance? I think repentance is the key, although, I am confused over it. It's a confusing issue.


If we believe in free will, I would suppose so. But, there are times when I do something I didn't really want to do, and wonder why. Paul did no less. Continuing on in unrepentant sin, though, is a choice.


It's true that being born different doesn't mean sin, but if God created people who are born with the "homosexual" tendency, why would He do that? Why would He deliberately allow the creation of something that He says is an abomination in His eyes? People have asked that before. (Don't look at me, I don't have any answers - I only know that I trust the things that God does because someday, we will know.)

So, is it learned, is it born into people, or is it "the sins of the fathers"? Does that even apply today?

Sheesh...leave it to JN to post something that makes you think. My brain's hurtin' right now.....

Gracey

Romans 6:16.  Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

It seems we have choice. "To whom ye yield yourselves",
"to whom ye obey".

A human if born to mature into an adult homosexual still has the choice of to whom and to what they yield, act upon or think about.

A human that develops into an adult homosexual due to environment, relationship circumstances with parents or chemical imbalances still has the choice to whom and to what they yield themselves.

Ollie

Ollie, you always manage to delight me with your thoughtful replies.

Gracey

Amen!

You are a thinker dude  ;D

Rom 5:12  Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

The fact that all of us are going to physically die is the evidence of this.   Some children die at birth even though they have never acted on sin in their innocense.   (I believe not accountable, but thats another thread)

I think its fair to say sinning is a choice, or perhaps the practising of sin is.   Even so, we still do things as Christians that we do not want to due to our sin nature.

Paul said....

Rom 7:18  For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19  For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20  Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.


We can all relate to Pauls delima here.   I don't know if homosexuality is a born tendancy or not.   But I do know, that ALL of us are born with a defect.  Its called sin.  And its a decfect that separates us from God.

We live our lives with this defect until we crucify it with Christ.        We give everything that we are over to him.

Listen again to what Paul says...

Gal 2:20  I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ [....]

Most likely in our eyes even without christ, homosexuality may seem like a very bad thing.   The truth of the matter is, everyones lifestyle is a very bad thing in Gods eyes, even if it seems wholesome to us on some human moral level.   No matter what our lifestyle, unless we crucify it with Christ and let HIM live through us, death will have ultimate victory over us.

Its a wonderful thing living the Christian life....not ours, but him.....in us.

Grace and Peace!

Tim - that sums it up pretty nicely: "Practicing what we know to be sin is a choice."  
So, I guess we can categorize sin under two headings; “Impulse Sin” and “Planned Sin”?  To a large extent, dealing with "impulse" sins: anger, lust, coveting, etc., seem almost unmanageable.  Whereas “planned” sins (those sins we actually “practice” and get good at  ;D ) such as idolatry, sexual impurity and drunkenness should be easier to deal with since we have time to plan not to do them?
Is an “Impulse Sin” less deadly than a “Planned Sin”?

PS: Tim - what happened to your little "rapturing smiley guy"?  He was cool.  :)

 Hmm he became a full preterest?

"Go and teach all nations"

Jesus Christ directed His apostles to teach all nations of the way to overcome sin. They continue to teach to this very day through the faithful in Christ using their written word. The word that has the Holy Spirit of God and pricks the responding heart to come to Christ, repent and overcome sin.

Ollie

Now your making my brain hurt....lol   Going back to your first post, I think you were trying to understand whether or not homosexuality is a sin of choice...if I read it right?   The point I was trying to make is that sin is sin not matter what in Gods eyes.    Whether its a "oops I slipped" sin, or a "OK, I'm gonna wait till dusk, hide in the alleys and sin like theres no tomorrow sin"  

Let me put it another way.  Even for the man who lives a relatively good life, pays his taxes, treats others kind, brings momma flowers, and upholds good morals in his community.   He is not even a glint of goodness in the eyes of a Sovereign, Righteous, Just, Holy, Perfect God.   Think about the depth of that for a moment.   This is why we were seperated from him in the garden.

I know you already know all that, but just keep it in mind as I come back to my point.  

If a homosexual decides to not engage in that particular sinful activity anymore, he is still a sinner bound for hell without being born again.    I think it matters not what the sin, as much as it matter that have sinned (no matter what that sin is), is the point I was trying to make.

The last time I posted on the topic of homosexuality I spent days trying to define  the point I was trying to make and defend my position.   My original comment was "love the sinner, hate the sin".   And it was said that I was teaching a principle that is not in the Bible.   I still disagree.   If this was not a Biblical principle, then Christ could not have offered himself for us.    He loved us while we were yet sinners.   He had compassion for people who's lives were horrid, yet all the while he never condoned not one sin.   We can take a stand on sin and still love those who need Christ.   Without Love, homosexuals will never know Christ, just as we never would have, had he not loved us also.

Am I angry about their agenda and marches in washington?  You bet!   Am I upset about the moral decay its bringing on our nation?  Absolutely!   But If I can't also show them the Love of Christ, there is no hope in any of them ever coming to know the Lord and allowing Him to make the changes they need in their lives.    

I hope I haven't completely missed the point of your post and rambled on blindly JN.   I believe you are all too aware of these things I have said.  I probably havent answered  your question directly, but I think you see what I mean.   For me, I don't try to catagorize sin.  In Gods eyes its all more dirty as the dirtiest sin we could imagine.  




In mans eyes yes, in Gods eyes a sin is a sin is a sin.


I guess because I attempt to view it from Gods perspective, I don't view it this way.  Our sin nature is inherrant and we will all, to varying degrees struggle with it till we die.  Your tempatations may be different than mine.  What matters more is , are we crucifying self and allowing God to handle that sin (edit to add; *and give us repentance*).


Is one death more deadly than another?  After all, sin does lead to death.   Maybe someone can address the verse that speaks about the sin unto death in 1 John 5:16?   Not sure I understand that one myself.  But it is clear that the wages of SIN is death.

Great topic.




Actually, I was wondering the same thing....lol   Apparently while I was away the site that I had linked the image to removed it   :'(


REBA said:

 :D   Hey Reba....I missed your humor.  Did you really think I would convert to preterism?  :shudders::  LOL   Since the smiley guy is missing, maybe he's the only one who got raptured in a pre-trib scenario!!!    :P   (just funnin ya)

Good to be back amongst you guys.

Grace and Peace!

Tim:
 :)
I make my wife's head hurt, too.
 ;D
"Thinking" is exactly what I wanted to happen - it's the whole point of the thread.  Often, scoffers see us as mindless sheep.  This thread should work to correct that misconception for those scoffers who may stumble across it.

Sinners born or born sinners? I'm afraid I don't have a clear answer.  I have been told that I am from the seed of Adam, so I am born a sinner.  I was born, I sinned.  (I’m pretty sure I was born before I first sinned!  ;D )  
The first time I was defiant to my mother and father was probably my first sin – and then it was downhill from there!  Did I recognize my first sin as a sin?  Defiance is an act that is inclusive of at least one of the following: selfishness, greed (which, I guess, is very close to selfishness), love of self (which is not a sin unless self comes before God or righteousness).  Even at 3-years old (or 2, I really don’t remember!) my first act of defiance broke the 5th commandment – I was guilty!  

I wasn’t very old before I realized that open (or closed!) defiance of my father and mother earned the punishment of a very red & sore butt!  The 5th commandment was the first I learned to adhere to without compromise.  A “baby’s” butt vs. a leather strap = unconditional surrender.  ;D

That is just what our Lord Jesus Christ wants from us:  Surrender.  No if’s, and’s or but(t)’s – just unconditional surrender, or suffer the punishment.

Love in Christ,
Jim

JudgeNot says: "That is just what our Lord Jesus Christ wants from us:  Surrender.  No if’s, and’s or but(t)’s – just unconditional surrender, or suffer the punishment."I say AMEN.