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God even gave Lucifer, free will.  Surely if God wanted to, he could end the world of sin by taking away the devil's free will.  But God obviously promised never to tamper with free will.  Not his angels', mankinds' or even Lucifers'.

Our walk on earth is a testing ground to see if we will choose God over the Devil by our own free will.  God doesn't want robots to love Him.  For surely he could create such a scenario with His power.  But we wants every soul out there to want to be with Him because they choose to.

He first tried it with the Jews, but he realized that man was just too weak of the flesh.  So he intervened against the Devil by offering to mankind help through Jesus Christ.  To help us reach salvation, but only if we wanted to accept the help from Him.

Again, God does not want to violate free will.

This is the beauty of free will.

I agree with you here.


...because they choose to.... not because we are forced to. Yes.

Praise God!

Gracey

You have to remember there are those who deny man has a free will at all.  Calvin and Luther were two such men.

I am currently reading a book I would highly recommend to anyone who is interested in this issue.

It is "Grace, Predestination and the Salvific Will of God: New Answers to Old Questions" by William Most  ISBN: 0-931888-66-2

But the topic is a tough slog, so don't expect to whip through it in an evening.

Where did God promise to do this?  I do agree that man has been given the opportunity to make choices, either to obey God, or to disobey God (sin).  But I also think we tend to put to much into our concept of "free will."  So, where does God promise us not to tamper with our individual free will?   :)

It is obviously an implied promise based on the fact that He even lets the devil keep its own free will to do evil which damages the mankind he so deeply loves.  He allows the devil to tempt mankind freely and does not interfere with the devil's efforts.  But even the devil listens to God, for God told him that he could do what he wants except take Job's life.  This is proof that even the devil has to listen to what God wants.  Everyone knows God could put a stop to the devil at any point in time if he wanted to.  If you are looking for literal proof, I do not have it.  But implied proof, I already gave you.

You say we put too much emphasis on "free will".  But I tell you we do not put enough.  This is a basic fundamental concept.  It can change the interpretation of the bible when applied to many scriptures if you do not except that you have free will while you walk on the earth.

So when we sin, who's fault is it?  The Devil's?   :)

When one makes the choice to obey Jesus Christ one relinquishes free will to the will of the Lord through this obedience. It is also through this obedience that one has the Holy Spirit.

 Acts 5:29 "We ought to obey God rather than men."

Acts 5:32.  "And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him."

Yes, "ought to", "rather than" suggests choice of whether ought to rather than ought not. If that isn't free will, what is? We are servants to whom we choose to obey and not servants to whom we choose to disobey.

On obedience to the Lord one relinquishes his will, but not free will, to do the will of the Lord, but still has the freedom to disobey or obey, sin or not sin, to live life accordingly or not accordingly.

I had no choice in the matter of who would be my parents and their will for me. However after birth , I could choose to obey or disobey them.
However I had a great deal of choice in choosing the way of the Lord. I did not have to come to Him. The power and Spirit of His word and its goodness and grace drew and called to me and influenced the choice. I felt no miraculous indwelling. The Holy Spirit is in me when I am obedient to Christ and His word.

My parents had me and raised me and I chose to obey and sometimes disobey their will until I became of age. Disobedience was punished and obedience was rewarded.

The analogy of physical parent and child does not seem to apply as one is not a child of God until being born again. One makes the choice to be born again into God's Spiritual realm.
One does not have a choice to be born into the physical realm.

Ollie

Romans 6:13.  Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
 14.  For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
 15.  What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
 16.  Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
 17.  But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
 18.  Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

"Yield yourselves" and " ye have obeyed from the heart", seems to connotate individual choice in the matter.
Then verse 16 seems to relate the consequences of the choice. All having to do with obedience and whose servant one is to obey or disobey.

Ollie

Which comes first? The Holy Spirit and then obedience or obedience and then the Holy Spirit? The Bible teaches that the Holy Spirit comes with obedience.

Ollie,
Then you are contradicting Chris'ts words that "No one can come the me unless the father who sent me draws him." Do you believe that you can come to God if he is not drawing you? Again, who do you think is more powerful? God or yourself?

Do you think the German people in Nazi Germany had a choice to believe the Jews were good people? If so, why? who would have told them? what reason would they believe that the Jews were good if they've been told all their lives they were not? Just a guess? How is that free will? Do you believe it is just a coincidence that only the ones to whom Jesus has revealed himself understand His words? What do you think he means when he said, "the secrets of the kingdom of heaven have been given to you" and not those on the outside? Do you again think it's just a coincidence that those to whom Jesus gives the Holy Spirit believe Him those to whom He has not given it don't? Jesus said; "but I have chosen you out of the world." "You didn't choose me, I chose you." Do you not believe Him? Do you not believe that "No one can come to me unless the father who sent me draws him?" Who do you think GIVES us the POWER to believe? How can a person understand what he does not understand?

Jesus considered having the cup of His task taken away but then He made the choice. Thy will be done not mine.

 Forgive me for saying so. This is nonsense.
This seems like unintelligable gobbledegook to me.
You seem to look at God in Human terms instead of His.
You appear to have an individual humanistic take on God's word instead of what it actually says.

Ollie
 

No. It is God's word that has the power to call us to Him. Upon obedience to His word our spirit is unified with His
Spirt and it dwells in us through obedience to His word.

Ted:

While I agree with much of what you are saying, the will of man is not so much a "right" as it is (1) a capability to make moral choices, (2) and the responsibility to make the right choices.

In democracies we have what are known as "rights" and also corresponding "responsibilities". However, in a theocracy -- the Kingdom of God -- we have "gifts" of grace and "responsibilities". Therein lies a world of difference.

So "free will" is not a right, since rights can be demanded, and nothing can be demanded from God. Man's "free will" [as commonly stated, but not actually found in Scripture other than for "freewill offerings"] is a GIFT, but it carries a huge responsibility:

1. The responsibility for all men now to repent according to God's commandment (Acts 17:30) and believe the Gospel, and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

2. The responsibility for all Christians to make their own wills subject to God's will, just as the Man Christ Jesus did --"Father, not my will but thine be done" (Lk. 22:42).

3. The responsibility for all Christians to pray and to work so that God's Kingdom be established on this earth and God's will be done on earth as it is in Heaven (Mt. 6:10).

SO WHEN WE SUBJECT OUR WILLS TO GOD'S WILL, WE IN FACT RELINQUISH OUR PRIVILEGE [NOT RIGHT] TO EXERCISE OUR WILLS INDEPENDENTLY OF GOD'S WILL. THIS IS TRUE FREEDOM.

Heidi says:
"Then you are contradicting Chris'ts words that "No one can come the me unless the father who sent me draws him." Do you believe that you can come to God if he is not drawing you? Again, who do you think is more powerful? God or yourself? '

SIGH!



Quote from Ollie reply # 37:

"However I had a great deal of choice in choosing the way of the Lord. I did not have to come to Him. The power and Spirit of His word and its goodness and grace drew and called to me and influenced the choice. I felt no miraculous indwelling. The Holy Spirit is in me when I am obedient to Christ and His word."

In answer to your question.

You seem to be replying without reading previous posts. You ask a question in reply #40 and I have already answered such in reply #37.

Take care,
Ollie

So, if we can make our own choices, then why in the heck are we not all perfect? Why does Paul say; "for what I WANT to do, I CANNOT carry out"? He of course is lying, because the rest of you are saying that he CAN carry it out, he just doesn't WANT TO! If only he had listened to you guys, he wouldn't have MADE such a statement? Do you guys even think?

HEAR WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS! Don't MAKE UP what you think it says! Paul said that he CANNOT carry it out for is it SIN living in ALL of us. Please DECIDE not have envy, greed, lust, pride, sloth, gluttony, or greed. Please sell everything and give to the poor, NEVER lie, steal, hate, get angry, covet your neighbor's ANYTHING! And above all, UNDERSTAND EVERYTHING Christ said! Afterall, it's your CHOICE to UNDERSTAND Him. It's your choice to UNDERSTAND calculus, ALL of science, ALL languages, so why don't you do it? The fact that you are not perfect is NO excuse! It's YOUR FAULT if you don't understand these things! Why, we don't even NEED Christ to forgive us because we have the power to be perfect on our own! Who in the heck do you think CHANGES the way we look at things? US? Paul "suddenly" became intelligen after he met Christ because of HIS OWN FREE WILL! What an AMAZING coincidence! PAUL gets the credit for his understanding and intelligence, NOT the Holy Spirit! Again, the Holy Spirit is NOT as powerful as Paul's intelligence!  Never mind that He said that God blinds the eyes of those he wants to harden. Again, who is little bitty God that we can't OVER RIDE his Power? If he has BLINDED someone, they can still see because it's THEIR choice NOT to see, NOT God's. His blinders are really meaningless because our FREE WILL is again, MUCH stronger than the Holy Spirit and the devil. MY what power we human beings have! Our omnipotence is amazing, we just don't WANT to use it. In your dreams.  Your dreams of glory are merely dreams. Sorry. The ONLY way we are perfect before God is Christ's death on the cross. HE gets the credit for the change in our hearts, NOT OUR GLORIOUS SELVES! Those who worship themselves can give the credit for salvation to themselves. Those who worship God give Him total and COMPLETE credit to God for everything in their lives. That is truly putting their lives in God's hands, instead of their own. That is complete and total submission that ONLY comes from the Holy Spirit, not our glorious selves. Jesus who was the most perfect man whoever lived tooK NO credit HIMSELF for everything good in Him but gave it ALL to God. He KNOWS that it is God's power and GOD'S WILL that ENABLED Him to be who He was! He worshipped and honored His FATHER ABOVE ALL ELSE, INCLUDING HIMSELF! Since He HUMBLED Himself more than the rest of us, He will CLEARLY be exalted above all men! We can learn A LOT from him, if we believe His words!

I think one of the biggest reasons you guys believe you have free will is because you think that the thoughts that are inside your head are coming from you! You do not realize that GOD hardens hearts or has mercy on hearts. What do you think that means? "For out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks." If our hearts are not coming from the SPIRIT, they are coming from the desires of the flesh which comes from the DEVIL. Once the holy Spirit enters us it changes our hearts to give us a LOVE for God, not a love for our flesh. We cannot do this on our own! We cannot DECIDE to not love the desires of the flesh. If we could, we wouldn't NEED the Holy Spirit to change our hearts! The Jews tried to love God all throughout the OT but the sin living in them was stronger. ONLY when God gives us the Holy Spiirt do we have the power to reap the FRUITS OF THE SPIRIT. Hitler truly BELIEVED he was right! He didn't KNOW God so he couldn't understand the things of the spirit! If God were calling him, you better believe Hitler's heart would have been changed! But all Hitler could understand was the desires of the flesh which came from the devil. The devil DECEIVES us. NONE of us is above the Holy Spirit or the devil which are the two biggest powers operating in the world and NONE of us human beings is bigger than either one! That is precisely why we Christians ask GOD to overcome the devil inside of us FOR us BECAUSE WE cannot DO IT BY OURSELVES! But those who are not being drawn by God CANNOT ask God for that power because they don't UNDERSTAND or KNOW God. They think He's made-up, a fairy tale. They really BELIEVE this! It's not a choice! How can we 'DECIDE' to believe the grass is green if we see it as purple? None of us ANY choice to believe what we do not understand!

Heidi,

Your interpretation has a lot difficulties in reconciling both Scripture, nature of man, and theology.

For me I have a will because I was created with it. It is the very essence of who I am as a person. Part of my personhood as it is of any other human being.

You couldn't give up your will if you even wanted to do so. It is the essence of your humanness. You also do not understand how our wills operate. The decisions and choices one makes is entirely yours personally. They cannot be given to anyone else, including the Holy Spirit or the devil.  However that does not say anything concerning any kind of forces that bear upon that will. Theologically under your understanding, man is no longer man and accountable. He becomes a robot operating at the whims of the devil or the Holy Spirit. Michael has already pointed out to you that the Holy Spirit in several examples in the Bible lost out to the devil.  Your understanding also makes the Holy Spirit an active agent of the devil and would be the author of your sin in your life.
Now, you may also believe that you no longer sin, have no sin in your life, then maybe I could see that the Holy Spirit is directing, orchestrating your life for you. But that is not scriptural either.
Heidi, you have to see the total illogical ramifications of such an understanding, if you are claiming it to be scriptural as originally given and taught.

Again, the rest of this post containing the quote above is saying absolutely nothing meaningful. It is again your words being put in other peoples mouths to say what they never stated and in my case what I actually believe.
If you are unsure of what someone meant, ask for clarification. Don't interject your assumptions or interpretations upon their words.

You have made some other statements that you may believe and it may be your interpretation of certain texts but they do not align with what has always been taught and believed about those same texts.  If that is what you believe, that is your choice, your will being excercised, but you cannot claim that it is what the Bible has always taught. If so, I have yet to see any verification, historicity of that belief from the beginning.
I would have my doubts that you could get beyond your own personal interpretation.

Sojourner,
You have a lot to learn. I thought the way you did for most of my life. I wanted to believe the bible but COULD NOT. It made no sense to me. Then when i was born again of the Spirit, instantly, I kew that every word in the bible was the truth. FREE WILL? Hardly. Paul did NOT wake up one day and DECIDE TO believe. BELIEF IS A GIFT FROM GOD, SO THAT NO MAN MAY BOAST. You boast about your ability to believe because you think it comes from you! You couldn't be farther from the truth.

I was just watching the movie "Sargeant York" where the exact same thing happened to him. He had wanted to believe but could not until he was born again of the Holy Sprit. Then he knew that every word in the bible was the truth. The same thing happened to Paul, Peter, and the rest of the apostles. Read your bible to understand what it means to be born from above. Then you will understand what Jesus means by "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him." AND, "Unless a man is born of water and the spirit he will never enter the kingdom of heaven." And "A man WITHOUT THE SPIRIT cannot accept the things that come from God..." AND  "but the mind controlled by the spirit is life and peace." I can always spot the born again believers from the "Christians" who "honor me with their lips but their hearts are far from me" because they give credit to their ability to believe to their OWN FREE WILL, instead of to the spirit of God. Boasting is alive and well in you, sojourner.

Sojourner:

You're just rambling without taking the time to digest what was posted.

"Our wills are neither a privilege nor a right". You seem to forget that to be created in God's image and likeness is indeed a privilege.  Ask any other creature, if you can communicate with them. You have misunderstood the import of what I said altogether.

"Theologically this could not happen". Really? Where do you get this? What were the first word's our of the mouth of Saul the persecutor of the Church? "Lord, WHAT WILT THOU HAVE ME TO DO?" (Acts 9:6).  That's exactly what I'm talking about. From doing his own will as Saul, we see Paul doing Christ's will within days of his conversion. This has nothing to do with losing our essential natures, and everything to do with loving God above ourselves.

You have it backwards.  It is precisely BECAUSE we can still make our choices, that we often make the wrong choices, and also sin repeatedly.

If according to your theory, men had no free will, then God would make all the choices, and every choice would be perfect.

It is because of the freedom of our wills that we have constant exhortations in Scripture to "MORTIFY THE FLESH" and "WALK ACCORDING TO THE SPIRIT".

So Sower, when Paul said: "For the good that i WANT to do I CANNOT carry out" what he really meant was; "for the good that I CAN do, i don't WANT to carry out"? Why do you twist his words 360 degrees?

Paul is talking about the inner battle that goes on between our two natures.  We are still flesh even when we accept the spirit, we still sin even after we accept Jesus as our Lord.  You want to make it out as if when we are saved and filled with the Holy Spirit that He takes over the driving and everything from then on is due to Him not us.  If that were true then we would not sin after we accepted Jesus, but John tells us that if we claim that we are liars.

1 John 1:8  If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1 John 1:9  If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:10  If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Sower,


I don't doubt you understand the differences but your language to describe it is not very precise.
Being created the way we are I would not call a priviledge. It just is the way it is.  You wouldn't feel any differently if you were an animal or had no will.

Again, your wording seems to say that Paul lost his will. That it was Christ's will. More precise is that Paul's will was aligned with Christ's will. They are not the same will. No matter which way he chose, it is his will that is being active, not Christ's will.
Now, if you are saying that it is Christ's will that Paul should answer the way he did, that is true. After being led the way he was and asking why he was kicking against the goads.
His will is being persuaded, those are the forces that moves us in our choices. But the choices and wills are our own.
Saying it any other way puts either God, the Holy Spirit or Christ actually doing or making the choices for us. That makes us robots and not accountable.

You have very little faith that the Holy Spirit can change a person, sojourner, but TREMENDOUS faith in YOUR OWN power to change yourself! Pride definitely comes from the devil, Sojourner, and you are riddled with it. The more you try to change yourself, the more pride you will accumulate because you are taking credit for your good works and ability to believe. "Jesus said; "I can do nothing without my Father." You not only do not believe him, but you only look foolish when you disagree with him.  I feel sorry for you. But Jesus said; "Father forgive them for they know not what they do." You also disagree with him there too. Jesus's words will pass never pass away, but yours will in a heartbeat! Until you ask Jesus for forgiveness for your sins, they can NEVER be taken away.  You will continue to be trapped in your pride forever. Only His death can take away your sins, not you yourself. JESUS gets the credit for taking away your sins, NOT you. Until you understand that, you have nothing wise to say.

Heidi,



Your two quotes actuallyt contradict each other. Do you see that.
Jesus died for the sins of the world. It is sufficient to cover every person who ever lived.
Yet, you state correctly in the first quote, that no sins will or can be forgiven unless (we) each believer repents and asks for forgiveness - daily, continually. Once again, your idea of no will or that the Christian must not or cannot do any work belies your quoting of texts and scripture. I am not saved until I do the requesting. That is a decision of my will.
It is what I will be held accountable for.
Not all the gibberish that you state above.
What that does not speak to is the work of the Holy Spirit either internally in the believer, or externally upon all men to convict, to lead, to bring mankind to individual salvation. That is all made possible by the Work of Christ on the Cross.  It makes man the active agent.
You have a misunderstanding of what Christ actually did, what man must do and what kind of cooperation is involved. You constantly infer that it is only I that is doing all of this. That again is your blatant disregard in trying to understand what someone is actually saying. You look at everything within your paradigm with blinders on and reinterpret what someone says to fit your view.

In all the discussion I have had with you, you have never acknowledged any understanding of what I am saying. You have done the same with Michael.

What you have also not ever done is confirm that what you believe or what you are saying was ever taught from the beginning. If it is faith once given you have two thousand years of history in which to confirm it. Yet you stick to your personal interpretation.

In that same Bible, at least I assume so though at times it seems strange that you could be using the same one, says quite clearly that Christ will abide with His Church until the end. That the Holy Spirit will be given to give to that Church, the Apostles, all Truth and will abide, instruct, preserve that Truth until the end.  I Tim 3:15, Eph 1:10, Matt 28:20, Matt 16:18, Eph 2:20` You believe in Jesus's words, right, then you have 2000 years of history of believers who lived that preserved Truth.
Did they live it as you are stating it or as I have explained it? Now, granted, my explanation may be faulty but at least it can be backed up and verified by many since the beginning.
How about yours?

And YOU don't understand, Sojourner, just who GIVES you the ability to ask for forgivenss. The devil? Your wonderful perfect nature? Sorry, Sojourner, but it is God who is giving you that power. Again; "No one can come the me unless the Father who sen me draws him." Since you don't understand how God draws us and how HE CAHNGES our hearts, you will then think that it's YOU YOURSELF who comes to God. In your dreams. Please refer to my last post on losing salvation and you will see why the catholics give themselves the credit for their belief instead of to the power of the Holy Spirit.

Of course i sin! There was only ONE sinless man whoever lived. that passage you quoted said; "The one who PRACTICES righteousness is righteous, the one who PRACTICES sin is of the devil..." I do not PRACTICE sin. I seek God's forgiveness whenever i see may sin and ask God who is faithful and just to forgive me. Notice a little further down where it says; "For this purpose the Son of God is revelad; to DESTROY the works of the devil..." It is only GOD'S FORGIVENESS that can take away my sin. In 1 John it also said; "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us." Pauls also said; "For the good that I want to do i cannot carry out." As we ask an receive forgiveness, God REPLACES our sins with his forgiveness until one day, all that's left in us is his spirit of forgiveness, love, and mercy." NO Christian ENDORSES or CONDONES sin but seeks forgiveness for it. Therefore, no Christians PRACTICES sin.

Heidi,


Same-o, Same-o Heidi,

You interpret me to make it fit so your view stands.
First, the paraphrased verse you use, you had better recheck again. If you really want to use this text for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and it is only the indwelling Spirit that calls, thus all are believers because you have previously stated that you know that the Spirit dwells only in the believer.  Thus by sheer logic you are supporting a universalist view. All men literally are saved, period.

The text makes it possible for the Holy Spirit to work in the world. That is the universe. See Acts 2:16-21. This is the fulfillment of the prophecy of Joel 2. We, that is the universe was redeemed so that the Holy Spirit could be poured out on mankind, not believers or would be believers. It is this work, external, through the word, that convicts you to make a decision. THAT DECISION IS ALL YOU. It has absolutely nothing to do with anything else. There is absolutely nothing to boast about, because if Christ had not died and been risen, the Spirit could not call me, and I would have been uable to answer his call. That makes it all Him and not me in the least that got me to the decision. However, THE DECISION IS MINE TO MAKE, CHANGE, TO REJECT, TO QUENCH THE SPIRIT.

Now, once upon conversion, repentance, baptism, regeneration, the Holy Spirit is given to you internally, {indwelt) Now, Heidi, He works with you. He does not do for you. It could not even happen that way. I know you don't believe in man having a will, but that is also unscriptural, or that he looses his will and becomes a pawn of either the devil or the Holy Spirit.
It is totally illogical, let alone unscriptural, to think that either one is making the decisions. One may be in command, one more so than the other, but that is your choice of how you deal with those forces. If not, then we have an actual war  inside of you between the Holy Spirit and the devil, and as Micheal has already pointed out, the Holy Spirit has lost some of these battles if you look at it this way.  
You can believe this, that is your choice. But if you want to stick to the scriptural view and the gospel as once given, believed and taught by the Apostles, then your view is in error. You have yet to show that I might be in error in total or even partially.

The big point being, I do actually understand how we are called and how we are changed. However, you have not shown  anything which might indicate you know anything of what you speak and show it to be scriptural and have some reality to it.
It is and has been Heidism up to this point.

Do you know who rules false prophets, sojourner? Jesus said the Counselor is the spirit of truth. So how then can false prophets have the Holy Spirit in them? It's impossible. Deceit comes from  the devil. As Jesus said, "not all who call me 'Lord' Lord' will enter the kingdom of heaven." Many, many, proclaimed believers are NOT coming from the Holy Spirit. Only the ones who KNOW Christ because he is living in THEM, are his true sheep. Jesus said; "Now this is eternal life; that you KNOW the only true God and Jesus Christ whom he sent." Period. But the many people who say; "Lord, we cast out demons, prophesied, and performed many miracles in your name." But jesus said; "But when the owner of the house closes the door, he will say; "I never KNEW you. Get away from me, you evildoers!"

Oh so YOU make it possible for the Holy Spirit to do good works, instead the the Holy Spirit making it possible for YOU to do good works! You have changed Jesus's words; "I can do nothing without my father" to "my Father can do nothing without ME!" Talk about twisting and boasting! Again, Sojourner, until you receive the Holy Spirit inside of you, you will have no spiritual discernment and can only twist Jesus's words. I'll pray that you receive it.

Heidi,
Why are you asking? Did I say the opposite. I don't recall, I kind of doubt it.

Again, I checked and I have not so stated. You will need to quote this as well. I think you are again paraphrasing something to suit your view, not really what I stated.
What was stated is that Christ's Work makes it possible for any human being to have communion with God. This makes it possible for the Holy Spirit to call all men to repentance and once an individual believes, is converted, regenerated, the Holy Spirit assist that individual in doing the works for which man was created.

For a change Heidi, why not try to quote or paraphase correctly without putting your interpretation on what someone stated and make it a lie. You are quite dishonest to say the least.

You are then a universalist? You did'nt clarify that statment I made regarding the logical implications of your view.
It amazes me also that I several days ago in other posts had asked you direct questions and they are never answered. Micheal has asked direct questions attempting to get clarifications and no response either.
If anyone shows fear it is you. You cannot stand behind your view. You have yet to prove it is anything but heidism.
Lots of accusations but no proof of them.

God gave man the law because his intention was that they show love for one another by adhering to the law.  But that didn't work, so he sent Jesus, who said obey my commandments and by obeying them you will have perfected the intention of the law which is unconditional love for thy neighbor and thy enemy. Through this perfection of love, he rewards us with eternal life and forgives us our sins on the day of judgment.  

The practice of repentance results in deep sorrow and confession of our sins and keeps our heart's intention pure.

Amen.

Whatsayyou,

Excellent posts. Amen.

If we don't have free will, and or what free will entails:

Without free will we wouldn't have to be chastised, therefore no trials.

We would all be perfect because God would be forcing it to control us, and He can't have anything wrong with Him, He is perfect -  if we didn't have free will.

We wouldn't have "possible" rewards without free will.

We generally wouldn't have to be instructed on anything and given a choice to walk in love if we didn't have free will.

But most of all, God loves us and wants fellowship with us and gave us each a unique being that choses to live His will for a full life of joy in the Lord, or not to have a relationship and fellowship with Him.

I choose all that God wants for His will, and to live in the joy of the Lord!         ;D          Love In Christ,  iconHis

You've used Job as your example many times.  However, the theme of the book of Job is God's sovereignty.  See, Job goes through all of this...because of his free will choice to obey God and not curse Him?  Because God forsaw Job's decision?  If so, then the book is about Job.  Problem is, it isn't.   :)

I love the way the book ends.  Job goes through all of these things, and yes, freely choses not to curse God and die.  Yet throughout the book he continuely asks to plead his case before God, so that if there was sin in his life, he'd know it.  When the book concludes, what does God say?  You'd think there'd be a "well done thou good and faithful servant, here's everything back two-fold."  But that's not what God said.  Rather, He takes 4 chapters to ask Job a few questions.  Namely, "Where were you when I..." questions.  He goes on about how He feeds the animals, helps them give birth; how He set the oceans and the tides and more.  Then He tells Job something very interesting.  He says "Let he who would contend with the Lord answer this."  He then goes on to illustrate His power not only in creation, but over it as well.

To me, at least, Job was taught a very valuable lesson.  He didn't need to be wrong to be under the persacution he was suffering.  Such treatment didn't need to be punishment.  Simply, God is still God.  He taught Job that He was Sovereign over all, regardless of what Job thought.  Job had a depth of understanding concerning that sovereignty far greater than we do before his trial.  He made Job, and could do with Job whatever He willed to do to Job.  Job learned it and grew from it.  When will we?   :)