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Theology => Debate => Topic started by: Krakenfürst on June 18, 2004, 12:44:59 AM



Title: The Paradox of Nothing
Post by: Krakenfürst on June 18, 2004, 12:44:59 AM
CONQUEST OF LO DEBAR
(The paradox of nothing)

In Hebrew the name Lo Debar means nothing.  It is a place name whose image conjures up a desolate condition enveloped in a sense of hopelessness and its conquest is a meaningless pursuit.  What we are going to examine is the paradox of those who mistakenly pursue the belief in nothing.  While thinking they are truly wise, they are, on the other hand, grasping at less than a void, naively attributing to “nothing” the very virtues of God. For if nothing is God then God is nothing.

Perhaps the most enigmatic belief in this world is that of pure atheism.  In its most fundamental capacity it is the belief that God does not exists and nothing or no one, certainly not God, is credited with creating all things.  Requisite to that premise is the conviction that everything that does exist is simply the byproduct of random chance, somehow evolving over eons of time from nothing.  For this, atheists hold the distinction of being the most ardent defenders and many even worshippers of probably the most faith-based religion the world ever imagined.  Evolution!  

To the atheists God is just perhaps the figment of our imagination and he is no more than the result of and even bygone remnant of the evolution of our intellect.  But atheistic faith must go much farther than worshipping at the shrine of evolution and human achievement.  Evolution, even if it were possible to accept as the means by which the universe is ordered, fails miserably to offer an explanation for the existence of the universe itself.  The progression of matter and energy from one form to another is insufficient to explain how it all came to be in the first place, even if the universe was once or at numerous times collapsed to a point as small as what the “big bang” theory postulates.  Atheists, even those who do not profess to believe in evolution, are simply without options to describe how the ordering principles of life began.  Even so, without God, they have little choice except to believe that the universe and all it contains was created by and from “nothing”.  “Nothing” it seems plays the prominent role in atheism, for it must be either creator or dreamer.  For them “nothing” is maker of law, ruler of worlds and unknowable god of the entire universe.  Yet, self-defined as logical pragmatists, atheists are faced with a long list of impossible paradoxes.  While the existence of God is no easy concept, at the very least, He can be logically demonstrated to be the uncaused first cause for everything, and beyond that there is only faith that He is who He says He is.  Atheism on the other hand must desperately grasp with all of its intellect and logic to the belief that “nothing” is as great or greater than God in its creative capacity to order worlds seemingly without end into being.  To the atheist, the child of nothingness, random chance, is the singer of songs and the director of music orchestrating the beautiful tapestry of life ever progressing in synergistic fashion.  It is the blind impartial organizer and architect for the countless particles of nature, each progressing in harmony to build ever more intricate systems of life, acting both at the same time in defiance of and in accordance with the profoundly faultless laws of nature, which “nothing” created. This in and of itself is a paradox of overwhelming contradictions that proves intelligent design requires an intelligent designer.  Yet chance never created anything and chance cannot even spell "The Theory of Evolution" if given a chance to draw random letters every second for all the time that ever was and ever will be.

From the vantage point of those who believe in God it is that we see an inexplicable blindness to the truth of God’s existence.  Notwithstanding this, those who are blind to this truth are often heralded by the world as the most intelligent and logical.  Those who hold to a belief in God are frequently ridiculed as the most simple-minded and foolish.   But it can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt that there is a God and creator of it all.   The only alternative, even if you accept nothing beyond aliens bringing us here or that the world rest on the back of a giant turtle, is to believe in something that is paradoxically impossible.  Therefore, it is not those who believe in God who rely on faith the most, but it is those who do not believe in God that must have a greater faith in the magical power and mystical properties of Lo Debar.  Nothing!

Something cannot come from nothing, but what an Atheist is forced to believe is that something can come from nothing and indeed nothing by conquest of nothing created everything.  That takes more faith than anything.  That, my friend, is the great paradox of nothing.  

If God can thus be logically proven to be, then would it not be wise but to try and find out more about him and who he is?   For in the end there will be no excuse for anyone, because we are all witnesses to God’s eternal power and his invisible qualities as evidenced by creation.  

Psalms 14:1-3, “The fool says in his heart, "There is no God."


Title: Re:The Paradox of Nothing
Post by: Bronzesnake on June 19, 2004, 02:24:50 AM
Kraken quote...

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The second law of thermodynamics says that if no energy enters or leaves a system the potential state of energy will always be less than that of the initial state. Therefore an eternal universe would have died of a heat loss an eternity ago.  
 
So,

ebia response...
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a.  you're happy with the second law of thermodynamics (and insist all atheists accept it).
b.  you're assuming the universe is a closed system.

 Aren't you the person who said the following...

 
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It also seems remarkably ironic that you want to use science you dismiss as false when it disagrees with the Genesis account to prove the Genesis account.


 Now that is ironic!

Bronzesnake.


Title: Re:The Paradox of Nothing
Post by: Heidi on June 19, 2004, 09:59:20 AM
Ebia, for being a "professed Christian" you sure do agree with the atheists. Jesus said; "He who is not with me is against me." So which is it? Which beliefs do you adhere to? Are you with or against Jesus? You can't have arguments on both sides of the fence or you are what Jesus referes to as a sheep in wolves' clothing.


Title: Re:The Paradox of Nothing
Post by: Krakenfürst on June 20, 2004, 12:27:04 AM
Ebia,

You asked me to prove that something can't come from nothing and I offered it.  But you don't acccept scientific evidence apparently any more than you have faith in God.  You argue against every point of view and offer nothing in response but contrary remarks.  Ok, here is some additional proof.  I tried really hard to create something out of nothing and I could'nt do it. You give it a try just to back me up.  Then let's hear your world view.  Please explain.

I'll take a guess.  Apparently in Ebia's world the universe isn't a closed system.  Ok, but first, I think you need some basic understanding of what the word universe means.  The freaking universe IS a closed system because there is only one universe.  That's what the name universe means.  If we look way way way out there, lets say as far as 9 trillion light years away and find some more stuff we didn't see before, well wiz bang what do you know, its still in the universe.

On the other hand in Ebia's world there may be parallell universes with a portal that adds cool stuff to our universe to keep it from being closed.  I'll run with you on that for a minute.  If you take ALL the parallell universes and put them together and call them the megaverse then I'll say the same thing.  The magaverse is a closed system.  I guess there could be parallell megaverses also.  So let's take all the paralless megaverses and any other the physical space that exist anywhere and call it Ebia's brain.  Ebia's brain is a closed system.    ;D JK, that was mean, I'm sorry!  

 





Title: Re:The Paradox of Nothing
Post by: Krakenfürst on June 20, 2004, 01:10:33 AM
Ebia,

One more thing.  You say that my argument is garbage.  It's simply a paradox that says something can't come from nothing and if you believe it can then you believe nothing is as powerful as God.  This is not a statement of my entire faith.  Keep in mind that I actually do believe in someone (God) and that it is impossible for something to come from nothing unlike you who ridiculously demands proof of that.  I've had dedicated atheist give far more cogent arguments against this paradox than what you have done by simply saying prove it.

Bronzie,

Hey, since when is Christianity at odds with good science.  I find it incredible to think that some Christians actually argue with known facts such as the universe "appears" to be older than 6,000 years.  I mean c'mon it takes the light from the closest stars longer than that to reach us.  From the closest galaxy I think we are talking tens of millions of light years.  When they focused the hubble telescope on the blackest part of space what came back were images of countless galaxies billions of light years away.  On the other hand that is perfectly in line with what the Bible says.  God says we will never be able to search out the heavens.  Its a big place.  I think it's in Psalms or somewhere like that.   I find it inconcievable that God would have actually created a universe that we could one day look out and say, Wow, there's the end of that sucker, it ain't so big.  It simply shows me that HE is indeed a magnificent creator.  Also, I believe the God who created the vast array of heavens would have done so in such a way that we could also never point to it and say that is how he did it and that is when he did it.  He could have laid it all out in seven days or seven seconds for that matter just the way it is because he IS GOD and He created time in the process as well. If you need more rational evidence there are actually physicist who say that God could have created everything at a single point in space (ala BB) and it could have been spread out from there and as a result it could have actaully been only so many thousands of years but appears much older.  I don't know.  All I know is that it was done exactly the way the Bible says it was done, in six days.   He could have created rocks that actually looked like they were here forever also.  I mean what would a world full of brand new rocks and brand new elements look like anyway.  Elements with supposed half lives of millions of years that help us date rocks by virtue of their radioactive decay.  Alot of science is purely a wag.  God still created it all!




Title: Re:The Paradox of Nothing
Post by: Krakenfürst on June 20, 2004, 02:58:31 AM
Rebia,

One more time for Rebia! Because nothing IS nothing it cannot possibly foster the creation of anything.  People who believe in nothing have only two choices.  They must believe that everything came from nothing or that everything is eternal which can be proven to be untrue by the laws of entropy.  That is the paradox but apparently you don't get it nor will you ever and frankly I am sick of talking to you.  With over one thousand post you must be the most annoying person on this forum.  Thank you for ruining this thread.


Title: Re:The Paradox of Nothing
Post by: Heidi on June 20, 2004, 09:30:44 AM
Ebia,
When you said that being on Christ's side does not mean that you have to agree with every argument he presented, confirms my insictincts that you are NOT a Christian. You do NOT see Jesus as the way, the truth, and the life because SOMETIMES you see yourself as knowing more than he does. You also disagree with him when He said; "He who is not with me is against me." Who do you think you are? God Himself? All you have shown is your igorance, arrogance, and poverty of rational arguments. This clarifies why you have been at odds with most people on this forum who believe His words which you have admitted you do not. At least athiests are honest with their admission that they are not Christians. People who claim to be but do not "believe in the one He sent," are exactly what Jesus means by wolves in sheep's clothing. I feel very sorry for you and will pray for you. You can pray to humans like Mary which is one reason you're not saved. People who are saved believe EVERY words Jesus said.


Title: Re:The Paradox of Nothing
Post by: Gracey on June 20, 2004, 02:27:29 PM
Hmmm,

Ebia said:

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Being on His side doesn't mean I have to agree with every argument presented in His name, no matter how flawed.

Heidi said:

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When you said that being on Christ's side does not mean that you have to agree with every argument he presented, confirms my insictincts that you are NOT a Christian.

Heidi, I think you have misread what Ebia said. Ebia didn't say she didn't have to agree with "every argument He presented", but did say she didn't have to agree with "every argument presented in His name". There's a big difference.

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You do NOT see Jesus as the way, the truth, and the life because SOMETIMES you see yourself as knowing more than he does.

That's a pretty presumptuous statement. You can see inside Ebia to the heart? You can see Ebia as God sees Ebia?

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All you have shown is your igorance, arrogance, and poverty of rational arguments.

At times, that statement could apply to each of us.

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Who do you think you are? God Himself?

While I hardly believe Ebia needs my meager defense, I think you should look at the plank in your own eye before making a statement like that.


Title: Re:The Paradox of Nothing
Post by: Bronzesnake on June 20, 2004, 07:45:26 PM
kraken...

 
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Bronzie,

Hey, since when is Christianity at odds with good science.

 When did I say that?

Bronzesnake.


Title: Re:The Paradox of Nothing
Post by: Heidi on June 20, 2004, 09:33:31 PM
Gracey,
Ebia makes a habit of disagreeing with many of Jesus's words. She argues for evolution, doesn't believe Him or doesn't understand him when he says not to call anyone 'father', and basically thinks she knows better than He does. I do not know better than Jesus which is why I believe his words. That is also precisely why I don't think I'm God. I look to Christ for the answers. I don't see quotes of Jesus's words from ebia. I don't doubt his words or argue against people who believe them. Ebia does this consistently. Jesus said that by their fruits, we will recognize false prophets. I believe Him. Anyone who argues against Jesus's words simply is not a Christian. You do have a habit of rescuing people, Gracey, even if it keeps them from seeing what attitudes and beliefs are keeping them from salvation. That is not helping people, Gracey. Only the truth is what sets us free. If you want to chastize me for believing Jesus's words, then by all means do so. I haven't yet seen one post by Ebia that agrees with Jesus's words. How is that my fault? I have seen many posts that agree with Jesus's words by many other Christians on this forum.


Title: Re:The Paradox of Nothing
Post by: Rich on June 20, 2004, 10:50:16 PM
Correction, you've seen other posts that agree w/ YOUR interpretation of Christs words. The reason you haven't seen any posts by ebia that contain Christs words is because you ignore them or twist them, just like you do anybody elses who doesn't agree w/ YOU.
        You say you don't know better than Jesus, but looking back at all your posts you sure seem to claim His job by telling everybody where their hearts are, who is and isn't a 'true Christian', judging others, telling others they don't have the Holy Spirit, etc. It seems to be just more of your   self rightous blather to me.
     


Title: Re:The Paradox of Nothing
Post by: Heidi on June 20, 2004, 11:17:46 PM
Jesus said; "By their fruits you will recognize them." I agree with Him, Rich. You dion't have to.


Title: Re:The Paradox of Nothing
Post by: Heidi on June 21, 2004, 08:22:51 AM
Ebia, I've never seen a post of yours that agrees with Jesus's words. I'm not saying there might not be one amidst the myriad of posts you have written, but if there is one, it is rare. Most of your posts are arguments against people who do believe Jesus's words.

I don't even think you understand what believing Jesus is. Instead of believing Jesus's words, you change them. You change the phrase 'Do not call anyone on earth 'father' into who knows what, but it has nothing to do with those words. That's called twisting his words. You change the phrase that Jesus had brothers into the fact that he did NOT have brothers. That is changing the words in the bible. Any "interpretation" that has nothing to do with the words in the bible is not an interpretation of but twisting. I don't think you have the capacity to believe Jesus's words because you don't understand them AS WRITTEN.


Title: Re:The Paradox of Nothing
Post by: Gracey on June 21, 2004, 05:12:13 PM
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Ebia makes a habit of disagreeing with many of Jesus's words. She argues for evolution, doesn't believe Him or doesn't understand him when he says not to call anyone 'father', and basically thinks she knows better than He does.

If you take the time to read Ebia's posts correctly what you will see is that Ebia is one of those people who likes to "stir the pot"....not just for argument's sake, but to make us think about the correct interpretations. She doesn't argue against Jesus or His words, but against what she feels are wrong interpretations, just the same as you do.

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and basically thinks she knows better than He does.

Like I said before: how can you possibly know that? Only God can know her heart, not you. You can only see her actions or what she writes and even that can't really tell you what she believes.....unless she states it outright (ie: "I believe I know better than God) and signs her name to it, you can only give your opinion, you can't know for certain.

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That is also precisely why I don't think I'm God.

Telling people what they believe can sure make it look like you think you are. That was the point I was trying to make,

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I don't doubt his words or argue against people who believe them.

You may not doubt His words (or at least your interpretation of them), but you do argue against people who believe them if those people don't believe them with your interpretation.

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You do have a habit of rescuing people, Gracey, even if it keeps them from seeing what attitudes and beliefs are keeping them from salvation. That is not helping people, Gracey.

Ebia hardly needs rescue from me; she is quite capable on her own. What I was trying to do was show you that in order to debate effectively, you can't use some of the statements you used. They are only your opinion, which doesn't necessarily make them fact. What you should be saying is: "in my opinion, yadda, yadda, yadda....". Because, like all of us, you are entitled to your opinion. But to blatantly tell someone they don't believe is not the least bit effective.

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If you want to chastize me for believing Jesus's words, then by all means do so.

That was hardly what I was trying to do, dear. I was pointing out that your opinion of Jesus' words and Ebia's opinion might be different, but you have no place to tell her "what" she believes. Maybe she believes, maybe not.

For instance, it would be no different if I said to you that "you just don't believe what the words mean, so you aren't a christian". How do I know? I don't, so why would I say that? You see? You are entitled to your opinion, and to post it, too.... It's kind of silly to try and tell people what they believe.

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I haven't yet seen one post by Ebia that agrees with Jesus's words.

Jesus' words as understood by you. If your understanding of the meaning is different (and it appears that for you and she that is mostly the case) then you would feel that she doesn't agree with His words, however, I also can see that she would easily feel that you don't agree with His words, although, you think you do.

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How is that my fault?

What someone else does/doesn't do is not your fault at all. Your own behaviour is your responsibility and I never said any different. Nor was I trying to fault you or criticise you for anything to do with Jesus' or His words, only the way in which you responded.






Title: Re:The Paradox of Nothing
Post by: Heidi on June 22, 2004, 09:46:22 AM
Gracey, do you think that every interpretation of Jesus's words is correct? Do you think that when Jesus said He is the way, the truth, and the life that he meant he is NOT the way, the truth, and the life? Do you think that when he said that No one can snatch us out of his Hand that He meant that we CAN be snatched out of his hand? Do you think that when He said not to call anyone on earth 'father' He meant that we are SUPPOSED to call people on earth 'father'? Am I not allowed to stand up for what He said?These statements that Jesus said are very clear to me. Jesus had intentions when he spoke. He didn't say things, Gracey, just to talk gibberish. Most BA Christians BELIEVE HIS WORDS. They do not question every phrase He said, they just BELIEVE them. Jesus said that he speaks in parables so that those on the OUTSIDE "though seeing they do not see, though hearing, they do not understand." He was very clear about people whose eyes are blinded not understanding. Ebia and a few others on this forum have admitted they have a VERY hard time understanding Jesus's words because they QUESTION almost all of them. Jesus told us that the secret of the kingdom of heaven has been given to His believers. Do you not agree with Him either? How is it my fault that I believe His words? How is it my fault that ebia does not?

If an interpretation disagrees with ANY part of scripture then it is a false teaching. What interpretations of mine have desagreed with ANY scripture? Ebia's has. All someone has to do is to say that Jesus is the devil because that's THEIR interpretation and chastize anyone who disagrees with THEIR interpretation. That does not mean that their interpretation is correct at all!!!  I simply take Jesus at His word. How is that twisting scripture?

Gracey, when someone disagrees with Jesus. He ovbioulsy believes his opinions are right and Jesus's are wrong, is that not true?

Gracey, Jesus's words are facts, are they not? Then why do people argue with them? Ebia, as you said, like to "stir the pot" which is akin to stirring up trouble which the bible sepcifically warns us NOT to do. She creates strife when Paul says not to do that. Her motive is therefore NOT unity! There are only two reasons for such behavior. One is to create doubt in others, the other is because she simply doesn't understand scripture. I haven't a clue what she stands for, ONLY what she is AGAINST, which is not only the definition of a rebel, but someone who is not interested in fellowship. These motives are definitely suspect and NOT a fruit of the spirit which is why I said; "By their fruits you will recognize them."

I will stand up for Jesus's words and scripture. I will NOT stand against them even if people want me to. Which do you stand up for? People or Christ? Or don't you believe Him when He said that if we don't hate our mother and father more than Him, that we are not worthy of Him? Do you know Jesus's words and believe them more than the words of any human? Do you stand up for His words even if it means you will be persecuted for it?


Title: Re:The Paradox of Nothing
Post by: Rich on June 22, 2004, 11:00:24 AM
Heidi, you claim that you have no interpretations that disagree
w/ scripture? What about 1 Tim. 2:11-14 ?
   "Women should learn in silence and all humility. I do not allow them to teach or have authority over men; they must keep quiet. For Adam was created first, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived; it was the women who was decieved and broke Gods law."
   Now if you follow what these verses say, we should not be hearing anything from you correct? Or just what is your interpretation of these verses, does he not really mean what he is saying? Or is this a part of scripture that doesn't pertain
to you? Are you going against scripture?
     Just love your take on who causes strife and stirs the pot
around here. Whos name is at the start of many of the threads bashing what others believe? You my dear are a hypocrite in every sense of the word.


Title: Re:The Paradox of Nothing
Post by: Heidi on June 22, 2004, 11:19:26 AM
Rich,
When interpreting a passage, you have to take into consideration ALL of scripture, or your interpretation might disagree with other scripture. Wouldn't you agree? Or do you think that the bible contradicts itself? I don't. Therefore the passage you quoted has to be  seen through Jesus's words and the rest of scripture. Mary Magdelene definitely did NOT keep quiet. She passed along Christ's words just as many women do. I am not a pastor or leader in my church. The bible also says that the husband is the head of a woman. My husband WANTS me to witness and pass on Jesus's words. Should I disobey him?


Title: Re:The Paradox of Nothing
Post by: Gracey on June 22, 2004, 04:20:00 PM
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Gracey, do you think that every interpretation of Jesus's words is correct?

Of course I don't - even all of your interpretations are not necessarily correct.

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Do you think that when Jesus said He is the way, the truth, and the life that he meant he is NOT the way, the truth, and the life?

No, do you?

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Do you think that when he said that No one can snatch us out of his Hand that He meant that we CAN be snatched out of his hand?

No, do you?

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Do you think that when He said not to call anyone on earth 'father' He meant that we are SUPPOSED to call people on earth 'father'?

What I believe is that you have misinterpreted the meaning of this scripture, but I don't want to argue with you over this passage yet again.

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Am I not allowed to stand up for what He said?

Yes, of course you are, and in fact you should!

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These statements that Jesus said are very clear to me. Jesus had intentions when he spoke.

Yes, it's very apparent you believe your interpretations. And yes, Jesus had intentions, but they weren't necessarily what you think they are.

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Ebia and a few others on this forum have admitted they have a VERY hard time understanding Jesus's words because they QUESTION almost all of them.

I haven't seen any admission of that sort. Questioning something is not an admission of disbelief.

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Do you not agree with Him either?

I agree with Him, even if I don't necessarily believe in your interpretation.

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How is it my fault that I believe His words?

Well, whose fault is it then; believing in His words is not a "fault"; it is and should be the result of the Holy Spirit.

As for the rest of your post I'm not even going to bother.

I think you totally misunderstand the reason for my post; it wasn't to support Ebia's view or chastise you for yours. It was simply to help you learn the correct way to debate your views.

Just because you say something doesn't make it true. Just because you believe something doesn't make it true. What it makes it, is your opinion and your belief, which is perfectly fine. But even I, Ebia or anyone else is entitled their belief and opinion too.

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I will stand up for Jesus's words and scripture. I will NOT stand against them even if people want me to. Which do you stand up for?

Yes, well you stand up for your belief in what they mean. As do I.

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Or don't you believe Him when He said that if we don't hate our mother and father more than Him, that we are not worthy of Him?

..."we don't hate our mother and father more than Him"? I do believe you've misquoted.

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Mat 10:37  The one loving father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And the one loving son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.

That verse doesn't say anything about hating our parents. What it means is that we are to put Jesus first, above all things.

You tend to make the same quotes over and over again. Jesus said a lot of other things, too.....

Mat 15:4  For God commanded, saying, "Honor your father and mother," Ex. 20:12; Deut. 5:16 and, "The one speaking evil of father or mother, by death let him die." Ex. 21:17
Mat 15:5  But you say, Whoever says to the father or the mother, A gift, whatever you would gain from me;
Mat 15:6  and in no way he honors his father or his mother. And you annulled the command of God on account of your tradition.


Jesus tells us to honour our mother and father (yes, His words), not to hate them.

You say you believe every word He spoke....so, have you done this (literally)?

Mat 19:29  And everyone who left houses, or brothers, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for the sake of My name, shall receive a hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

Have you left all of your family behind for the name of Christ? Probably not.....neither have I, nor too many other people I know. Does that mean you don't believe His words? Probably not...because the passage means we are to put Christ first, over even our other loved ones...it doesn't literally mean to leave them.

Do you see how silly this could get?

You and I tend to agree on some things, and not on others. But I'm quite willing to let you have your own interpretation, as long as you don't put your interpretations in His mouth.



Title: Re:The Paradox of Nothing
Post by: Heidi on June 22, 2004, 06:03:02 PM
I'm sorry that you don't believe Jesus's words as written, Gracey. I do. You can change the word 'father' to mother if you want since you don't understand his words. But then it would be the gospel according to Gracey and have NOTHING to do with Jesus's words. I see the gospel according Jesus because I believe His words as written. I'm sad to say that simply believing His words is not very popular with you and ebia. But you can put whatever slant you want on them. I don't. I simply believe them. It's a waste of time arguing with people who insert their own words into Jesus's statements. I do not.


Title: Re:The Paradox of Nothing
Post by: Gracey on June 22, 2004, 07:47:25 PM
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I'm sorry that you don't believe Jesus's words as written, Gracey.

That's too bad. You believe wrongly. Where did I state that I don't believe Him. In fact, here's a quote of my own words:

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I agree with Him, even if I don't necessarily believe in your interpretation.

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You can change the word 'father' to mother if you want since you don't understand his words.

That is the most incredibly obtuse statement....it has nothing whatsoever to do with anything in respect to my post. Or, quite possibly you just didn't understand anything in my post, which would account for your reply.

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I see the gospel according Jesus because I believe His words as written.

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But you can put whatever slant you want on them. I don't. I simply believe them.

You do, huh? Well, then answer the question I posed to you. Did you leave behind all of your belongings and all of your family, as His words say? Because if you take His words literally, as you claim you do, then you would be living on the streets, unmarried and without any family at all.

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It's a waste of time arguing with people who insert their own words into Jesus's statements. I do not.

Really? Well what "word of my own" did I insert into Jesus' statement? He used the words mother and father, I didn't change them at all.

Actually, this is supposed to be a "debate", not an argument. But it is certainly a waste of time debating with someone who refuses to address the issues as presented and just goes off on her own little tangent. That causes "argument" and is not debate at all.

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But then it would be the gospel according to Gracey and have NOTHING to do with Jesus's words.

The issues I addressed had nothing to do with my faith, your faith, Ebia's faith, or anyone elses' faith. Why is it when you are faced with the truth you are suddenly blinded?

Instead of replying to the questions/statements you proceed to tell me what I think?

I guess you really do know it all....at least you think so.

Mat 7:2  For with whatever judgment you judge, you shall be judged; and with whatever measure you measure out, it shall be measured to you again.
Mat 7:3  And why do you look on the splinter that is in your brother's eye, but do not consider the beam that is in your own eye?
Mat 7:5  Hypocrite! First cast the beam out of your own eye, and then you shall see clearly to cast the splinter out of your brother's eye.


Those are his words too, as are the ones below.

Mat 7:12  Therefore all things, whatever you desire that men should do to you, do even so to them; for this is the Law and the Prophets.





Title: Re:The Paradox of Nothing
Post by: Heidi on June 22, 2004, 08:09:30 PM
I definitely believe Him when he said that unless we sell everything we have and give to the poor then we cannot be his disciples. I cannot do that yet because I have too much greed in me but i very DEFINITELY agree with him!

What he means by hating our mother and father is putting Him first before any man. He uses the word "hate" because most of us are too attached to our families to put Jesus first. Therefore, we have to break away from them. He talks about LEAVING our mother and father when we get married and cleave to our spouse, which is what we are supposed to do, Gracey.  

If you do not believe Jesus's words when he said not to call anyone father then you must believe he said something else. Who knows which words you have substituted for father or call or whatever word you don't believe. But it's something!

EVERYONE believes his opinions are right or he wouldn't have them. If he does not believe his opinions, then why does he have them? If you don't know what is true and what isn't, then how can you accuse me of false interpretations? In order to do that, Gracey, you must ALSO believe you're right!


Title: Re:The Paradox of Nothing
Post by: Rich on June 22, 2004, 09:41:15 PM
Yes Heidi, this is what myself and many others have been trying to tell you. You have to take ALL scripture into account. But why is it that it only applies to what you are being asked or to support your claims? When the bible says that women should be silent, you say there are other parts of scripture that support your claim that women are supposed to spread the word of God. Was Paul lying when he said this? Was he saying this to a particular group of people for some reason?
   Why when shown that Paul and others refered to themselves as father do you not understand that you have to take all of scripture into account? Does the bible contradict itself? Is there more than one way to interpret particular passages? Does everything have to be taken into account?
   I think you know the answers to these questions.But maybe your pride doesn't allow you to admit that sometimes
you might be wrong, or that your interpretation just might be
that, YOUR interpretation.
      You really do need to stop telling others who don't agree w/ you that they don't have the Holy Spirit, or that they are not true believers. Do you even understand that you've done this to some who have agreed w/ you on particular subjects?
Your not God, you have no right to judge the way you do, or to claim that others are not 'true Christians' because they disagree w/ you and your interpretation.
   


Title: Re:The Paradox of Nothing
Post by: Gracey on June 22, 2004, 09:43:58 PM
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What he means by hating our mother and father is putting Him first before any man.

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He uses the word "hate" because most of us are too attached to our families to put Jesus first.

If you'd actually read my post you would have realized that the interpretation I gave is the same. The word "hate" is not used in Matt 10:37, though:

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Mat 10:37  The one loving father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And the one loving son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.

But in Luke a similar statement:

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Luk 14:26  If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple.

So, in my opinion they both say the same thing.

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I definitely believe Him when he said that unless we sell everything we have and give to the poor then we cannot be his disciples. I cannot do that yet because I have too much greed in me but i very DEFINITELY agree with him!

That's not what I asked you, although it's close. Have you left behind your family? In order to take the verse literally, you have to. So, you believe His words, but you can't yet do them...."be not hearers of the word, but doers".....

Personally, I can (and do) put Christ before my family, but sadly, I still have a roof over my head and food in my belly. So, no I am no better at it than you.

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Therefore, we have to break away from them. He talks about LEAVING our mother and father when we get married and cleave to our spouse, which is what we are supposed to do, Gracey.  

Yes, well the verse I quoted you would tend to include your spouse; you must leave behind the spouse, too. Or, of course, if we want to be really picky, it only says "wife", not spouse....but I wonder what word the original writings used?

Mat 19:29  And everyone who left houses, or brothers, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for the sake of My name, shall receive a hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

Matthew 19:29 has nothing to do with leaving our parents and cleaving to our spouse. The context is entirely different. Matthew 19:29 contains instructions on how to inherit everlasting life, not the relationship between husband and wife.

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If you do not believe Jesus's words when he said not to call anyone father then you must believe he said something else. Who knows which words you have substituted for father or call or whatever word you don't believe. But it's something!

This is a dead issue. Since you have no idea what I truly believe it's going to stay a dead issue. Don't assume I change any words at all. And to be frank, unless you are reading the original manuscripts of the bible, there are a lot of words that have been changed from what Christ originally said. Words are just words, meanings are something else entirely.

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EVERYONE believes his opinions are right or he wouldn't have them.

Agreed

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If you don't know what is true and what isn't, then how can you accuse me of false interpretations?

I know what I believe to be true; I and about 2000 years worth of Holy Spirit led christians.

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In order to do that, Gracey, you must ALSO believe you're right!

Yes, I suppose I must. That's my opinion, which I'm entitled to. The same as you are entitled to yours. But, what I don't do is tell other people what they believe, or that they don't have the Holy Spirit in them.

There's nothing wrong in pointing out if someone is not exhibiting the fruits of the spirit. But since none of us exhibit them all the time you can't just jump to the conclusion that the person isn't filled with the spirit. It's just plain wrong.




Title: Re:The Paradox of Nothing
Post by: Heidi on June 22, 2004, 11:12:24 PM
Rich,
You "judge" me in the same way you say I "judge" others. You have said i am lying when I believe Jesus's words instead of add, subtract or change them. Jesus said that "by their fruits you will reocognize them." I suppose you think He is lying there also. I don't think he is lying. I DO recognize them. Of course they will not agree with me because they are masquerading as sheep!

As far as women being silent IN CHURCH that also has to be taken in context of Jesus's words because IT CANNOT CONTRADICT JESUS'S WORD or the rest of the bible or it is false teaching. Do you not agree? You see the bible as a rule book just like the jews see the Torah and the Muslims see the Qu'ran as a rule book. Jesus said in MT. 15: 8-9, "These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men." The bible is not a rule book that you look in to see what you are supposed to do. It is the revelation of God's word to those who who have LIFE through the spirit. The Holy Spirit is our interpreter because as Paul said, the sinful mind cannot understand the things of the spirit. Picking out shoulds and should-nots from the bible are EXACTLY what the Jews did when they chastized Jesus for healing on the Sabbath. They did not understand that LOVE is what Jesus was all about, not just rules in a rulebook. When you understand that, Rich, you will be able to understand the words of Christ and the apostles. and believe them.


Title: Re:The Paradox of Nothing
Post by: Heidi on June 22, 2004, 11:34:09 PM
Gracey, I very DEFINITELY have left behind my family! There is spiritual warfare going on on our grown children. I hardly correspond to my family of origin becasue i am the only one saved in the family. They do not believe that Jesus is the only way to God. We are coming from opposite places and therefore have nothing in common. In addition, our grown children, with the exception of one, hate us because, as they told us, they hate Jesus. They want nothing to do with us. It would be SO easy to agree with them just to get them to like us, but we cannot do that. You have ZERO idea the division that has been caused because of Christ. But he warned us about that, and we have remained true to Jesus. Have you done that?

As far as doers, do you have NO envy, greed, pride, lust, gluttony, sloth or anger? Have you sold everything and given it all to the poor? Have you never doubted God? My favorite part about the Lutheran church is the confession. It says; "We confess that we are in bondage to sin and cannot free ourselves. If we say we have no sin, we are being deceived and the truth is not in us. We have not loved you with our whole heart. We have not loved our neighbors as ourselves. Forgive us, renew us so that we can walk in your ways to the glory of your holy name forever." That is the truth about all of us and it will ALWAYS be the truth about all of us. Those who boast about their sinlessness do NOT have the truth in them. As John says in 1John, "If we say we have no sin, we are being deceived and the truth is not in us." That is why Christ's forgiveness is the ONLY way we can become pure before God. 'It does not, therefore, depend on our own desire or effort but on God's mercy." Period. Every time we buy a stick of furniture for our houses we are indulging in greed. Every time we overeat we are indulging in gluttony. every time we neglect to help someone we are engaging in sloth. Every time we are angry at ANYONE we are indulging in wrath. Every time we think that WE are good and perform good works, we are indulging in pride. Every time we lust after anyone who isn't our mate or covet someone's car, house, looks intelligence, etc., we are indulging in lust and envy.  I'm sick to death of self-righteous people who think they are sinless, good, and righteous!!! That contradicts most of scripture! When addressed by the rich man as "Good Sir" Jesus said "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone." Jesus didn't even include HIMSELF! Yet so many people see themselves as righeous and "doers."  I am just a sinner. Salvation is given to us by Christ's blood and nothing else! The ONLY reason I'm loveable is because God loves me, IN SPITE of my sins, not BECAUSE of my GOOD works. Who are any of us to say that we are good? Do you say that you have no sin, Gracey?



Title: Re:The Paradox of Nothing
Post by: Rich on June 23, 2004, 09:39:09 AM
Wrong again Heidi, i've not, nor have any of the other people
who you so boldly claim are not saved or not 'true Christians'
have ever said that YOU were not a Christian. You don't act like it most of the time, but nobody has said that you weren't.
As far as saying that you are lying, well what do you call it when someone delibretly spreads false information, based on their bigotry, hate and own personal agenda?
   I do not judge you, that is Gods job, pointing out that you're way off base, and full of false information is not judging
you. As stated before only God knows where your heart lies,
and what motives you have, i have never said that you were not a Christian, as you've done to anybody who disagrees w/ you.
   As far as the father issue goes, that also has to be taken into context w/ the whole bible. Do you agree? Or only when your back is against the wall and it suits your puspose?
  It is amazing how good you are at twisting things to fit your
interpretations, but dismissing everybody elses as bad fruit.


Title: Re:The Paradox of Nothing
Post by: Heidi on June 23, 2004, 10:12:48 AM
Sorry, Rich, but it is you who are wrong. Michael said that i don't know Christ. Jesus said that we can recognize false prophets by their fruits and i believe Him. Do you? You have admitted that you have a hard time believing his words. Do you believe that phrase? You don't understand or believe him when he said not to call anyone 'father'. You don't believe the bible when it said that Jesus had brothers. Jesus said that those on the outside, though seeing will not see, though hearing will never understand. That is how I can tell a false prophet.

You don't jude me? Telling me I'm bigoted and spreading hate is not judgin? Again, you are lying.

How is believing a quote word for word, twisting? It is you who has to twist, insert your own words, and contradict the rest of the bible. Your interpretation of Christ's words about not calling anyone 'father' contradicts Paul's words because he decibes himself as the father of the gospel! My interpretation which inocrporates the difference between a title and a descriptions does not contradict either Christ's words or paul's words at all!! But since you don't understand the difference bewteen a title and a description you don't understand what Jesus means. How is that my fault?


Title: Re:The Paradox of Nothing
Post by: Gracey on June 23, 2004, 02:33:57 PM
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You have ZERO idea the division that has been caused because of Christ. But he warned us about that, and we have remained true to Jesus. Have you done that?

Wrong, I do have an idea; a very personal one. Yes, I am true to Christ; He is the reason I live.

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As far as doers, do you have NO envy, greed, pride, lust, gluttony, sloth or anger? Have you sold everything and given it all to the poor?

Heidi, do you actually read the posts that are made? Because you would have seen where I indicated that I was no better than you in being able to be a "doer" of the word.

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Have you never doubted God?

No, I have never doubted God. I may not understand all his plans, but I don't doubt that He knows what He's doing. Oh, maybe I should rephrase that; when I was a young christian (a very long time ago) I imagine that I did doubt God; probably even wondered if He were really there. But not in the past 10 years or so.

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Those who boast about their sinlessness do NOT have the truth in them.

I can't think of a single person I know who boasts about being sinless. Me included.

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Every time we buy a stick of furniture for our houses we are indulging in greed.

Wrong; unless you have a house already stuffed to the rafters. God said all things in moderation; not live in the streets naked and cold.

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every time we neglect to help someone we are engaging in sloth.

Unless of course, we must refuse because we are already helping too many people and have no time left.

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Every time we are angry at ANYONE we are indulging in wrath.

....ever hear of righteous anger?

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I am just a sinner.

Like the rest of us.

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Do you say that you have no sin, Gracey?

Did I say that? Anywhere? No. I didnt.

My sin has been redeemed by the cross; by the blood of the lamb. He has covered my sin; became my sin. It humbles and shames me to think that He paid the price for me.

But do I go around sinning? No. At least, not if I know I am. But when it happens (and it does) there is....glorious forgiveness.


Title: Re:The Paradox of Nothing
Post by: Rich on June 23, 2004, 09:44:08 PM
Wrong again Heidi, read 1 Cor 4:14-16 carefully, Paul says that in Christ Jesus he bacame their father through the gospel, not that he is the father of the gospel. I don't know what translation of the bible your reading, but all of them i check have it the first way, even my wifes old protestant translation.
   Why do you say that Paul was refering to a specific church, and specific group of people when telling women that they should learn in silence and submission, and to remain silent? Was it because it was intended just for this group at this time, or for everyone at all times?
   Do you not understand that when Jesus told the Pharisees
to not call anyone father, that He was refering to something they were doing at a specific time and place? That He was not condemning what they taught, but the fact that they themselves did't follow the rules they expected others to follow. The whole reason for Him telling them this was because
they didn't use the rules to obey God, but to make themselves look good. They were more interested in power,
wealth, and status and it was spreading to all the people.
    Paul was refering to himself as a spiritual father(leader)  to the early Christians just as priests are our spiritual fathers(leaders) in the Catholic and Orthodox churches.
   By saying that your bigoted and spreading hate, well i'm sorry if this offends you, but just look at the threads and posts you write and start.
   I believe that you are a Christian, a tad misguided, but a Christian none the less, as stated before only God really knows where your heart lies, it is Him that you will have to face someday, not me nor anyone else.
   Are you sure Michael said you don't know Christ, or did he say you don't know Christs words? Maybe he said it because your always telling everyone else they don't know Christ, and that they are not 'true Christians'. Hmm. just a thought.