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This is a mock trial....

Opening statements:

The plaintiffs: Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury and to our Sovereign Lord, Judge over all things:  There are many questions that the pre-trib rapture believers simply cannot reconcile without their dispensational lenses on.  In fact most do not even realize they are unqualified to interpret scriptures according to their own beliefs unless they know how the dispensational filter works to "clarify" Biblical interpretation.  The reality is that most, having no Biblical basis for their beliefs in the pre-trib rapture, rely more on what someone else has told them or what they have read in a book.  Their teachers twist and turn the Word of God to their advantage placing every end time’s prophecy in the Church age or not column depending upon whether it fits their point of view.  Their elaborate timelines attempt to explain all of the contradictions that arise as a result, but in the end it will be proven that you O God are truthful and every man is a liar.  Despite their desires to be left alone in their wonderings we feel it is necessary at once to bring action against the ever so peace-loving pre-tribs in our midst to prevent any further infringement against the Truth.

My complaint is simple and it is based on a simple question your Honor.  Where does the Bible explicitly say there is a pre-trib rapture?  Quickly, run and get your books upon books, your numerous timelines, graphs and your charts, you’re out of context quotes and all those quirky explanations of what a fragment of scripture means to say instead of what it does say.  However, let me warn you.  Do not quote what a man has said, to me or this court, because I have already heard them many times and God understands the full measure of their words.  However, if you desire to put what a man says into evidence, then feel free to do so, but be warned every careless or added word, or subtracted word is subject to brutal cross examination and carries with it some measure of eternal penalty according to the scriptures if it is found to be in contempt or perjurous.

My opening statement is simply this.  I can certainly prove to you that the Bible is NOT a lie, or ambiguous or misleading or even difficult to understand on this matter and it is in fact a seamless and utterly truthful tapestry that neatly fits all of the prophecies together and it points to a singular advent at the end of the age.  There is no need for a dispensational filter or other scheme whereby one may interpret scripture, but the truth is plain, as it is potentially terrifying to pre-tribs, who have visions of being raptured with their retirement plans still in tact.  However, since the defendant, as alleged, has infringed upon the Truth and has submitted the same as a substitute for the truth, as the plaintiff contends, then we shall rest the entirely of our case upon the aforementioned question which I shall hereby elaborate upon in repetition:

Where is the evidence for your claim that in lieu of direct scriptural authority, there is a coming of Christ and a rapture of the saints before the prophesied tribulation that has any basis for which to stand before the judgment of Jesus Christ our Sovereign Lord and Savior who holds the Sword of the Spirit of Truth and our God and who is primarily and wholeheartedly the subject and the chief witness to the entire matter of this very same question?


The plaintiff hereby ends his opening statement and contemplates a motion for summary judgment against the defendant in this case!

The defendants may now make their opening remarks.  

Please NO defendant witnesses at this time.  That will come later.  The plaintiff must rest their case first.  The plaintiff is going to call a single witness after opening statements by the defendant(s).  

For discovery purposes here is the published list of Plaintiff Witnesses:

The Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ as The Word of the Living God

 The reality of mock trials is they are full of mock reasoning, mock evidence, mock truth and end up drawing mock conclusions.

 Hey! I find myself suddenly in the mood for a sandwich...mock chicken sounds good!  :D

First of all, the pre-tribulation rapture was inspired to many people(and well before the 1800's).  And just why are you so critical of these people anyway?  If these people are constantly walking with Jesus, it is not going to affect their rewards (or yours) if the rapture is not pre-trib.  No, I dont know of any verse that comes right out and says the rapture will occur pre-trib.  And I don't have any timelines so I am not running to get them.  I know of verses that lead to that thought however.

I do know that we are to be looking for His return.  We are to be living Godly lives and not wandering away from the faith.  We are to pray for each other and build each other up.  The rapture will happen.  This is in God's Word.  Whether it occurs before the tribulation or during, God only knows.  I believe there are subjects not covered in His Word that are revealed to us through His Holy Spirit through constant prayer and study.  

It feels as though you have more of a grudge against christians that believe this rather than the belief itself.  

I did find your post humerous...however.

I don't think you are going to change anyone's mind who has been spoken to by the Holy Spirit though.  

Opening statement of alleged defendants:

Your Honor....we are fully cognizant of the fact that you, and you alone, are a righteous judge, therefore we plead that the jury be dismissed, as they are quite subject to erroneous interpretations and understanding, just as is the affiant for the plaintiff in this case.

Considering that the plaintiff's attorney has done nothing more than make logically flawed assertions in his opening remarks, and has at this point failed to show any basis at all for the charges levied, we ask for an immediate dismissal of the complaint on grounds of non sequitur veritam, and request an immediate acceptance by this court of a counter-claim of libel based upon argumentum ad hominem, argumentum ad ridiculum, obfuscatory snidism and egregious emission of volatile gasses.

Thank you your Honor.


JUDGMENT FROM THE BENCH.

Plaintiff's case is dismissed with prejudice, counter-claim accepted, and verdict of true rendered in the counter-claim based upon exculpatory comments made during opening arguments.

It is the judgment of this court that original plaintiff be sentenced to serve 7 years (if he can make it) at hard labor at Har Meggido.

Good luck, boy.

Thank you for presenting your opening statements.  

Nice try Evangelist.  Very witty comments, but it’s my thread and you don’t have to play if you don’t want to.

Aiki, I do not care nor wish to quarrel about the historicity of the pretrib theory, but your point about the inspiration of the pretrib rapture is noted.  But please understand you can also find far more ancient frauds that have an orthodox following, some of which trace their roots to a tree.  As for numbers of adherents, again such statistics are not relevant.  Lies often have a greater following than truth.  As for constant prayer and study, I highly recommend it!  It is my opinion that the biggest opponent of the pretrib position is one who is actually informed about what the Bible does say concerning the rapture and resurrection and it is NOT silent on the matter and in fact it tells you precisely and affirmatively it’s position relative to the tribulation as you will soon see.

I will now call my first and only witness:

I call to the witness stand the Bible.  There is no need to call for an oath as one does not need to swear by one’s self.  I shall begin with the questions.

Plaintiff – Please tell the court where you have said either explicitly or implicitly that there is a rapture of the Church and a resurrection of the saints before the tribulation?
Bible - …silence….

Please note that where the witness is silent on the matter it is not to say that He is either affirming or denying the question.  However, arguments from silence are difficult to make or prove and offer very little evidentiary value especially when confronted with authoritative (the Bible) evidence to the contrary.

Plaintiff – Please for the court state the following verse to which we all agree mentions the rapture, “The dead in Christ shall rise first, etc”.  I simply want to stipulate before the jury that the rapture event is accompanied by another crucial event that is also the resurrection of the dead in Christ.  

Bible – 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17, “We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.  After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.”

Plaintiff – If you are not silent about it can you tell the court when the rapture will take place and when will there be a resurrection of the saints at that time?

Bible – John 6:39-40, “And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”
   
Plaintiff – Are there any other verses that mention the rapture besides the one already mentioned?

Bible – Revelation 16:14-16, “They are spirits of demons performing miraculous signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty. "Behold, I come like a thief! Blessed is he who stays awake and keeps his clothes with him, so that he may not go naked and be shamefully exposed."
Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.
1 Corinthians 15:51-52 “Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed-- in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.”
Matthew 24:30-31, “"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.”  

Plaintiff - Please note, for the record, Armageddon is on the last day for those who are perhaps unaware of the chronology of the book of Revelation.  If it also pleases the court, this can be stipulated without submitting the entirety of the book at this point.  Are there any other verses that mention when the Resurrection will take place?

Bible - Daniel 12:1-2, “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people--everyone whose name is found written in the book--will be delivered. Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.”
Daniel 12:11-13, “From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days. As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.”
Revelation 20:4-6. “I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.”

Plaintiff – For the record I would like to stipulate that the timing of the events mentioned from the book of Daniel are clearly post tribulation with the reference to the events surrounding the antichrist and the tribulation.  Also the first resurrection mentioned in Revelation at the time of the second coming and millennial reign of Christ is clearly post tribulational.
   
Plaintiff – The defendant claims to believe you more literally than anyone else so is it true that when you say the words “Last Day” and the words “First resurrection” and the words “Last Trumpet” do you intend to say that you mean exactly that in a literal since or do you really intend to say something quite entirely different?

Bible- …silence….

Plaintiff -  The defendant claims that the 24th chapter of Matthew is not for the Church because it is so clearly post tribulational.  But for the record is there anywhere where you say that these words in your most famous Olivet discourse are not for the Church?
Bible- …silence….

Plaintiff- I see… Well let’s move on.  I could go on as there is so much more, but it would be better to submit additional evidence from my witness upon re-direct or cross examination.  Therefore, the witness may step down and the Plaintiff Rest.  

Plaintiff Motion:
Your Honor as the defendant has at his disposal enumerable books, commentaries, committees and councils that tickle each others ears and countless references to distinguished experts, noble professors and reputable clerics, experts and doctors of theology, chart makers and un-tanglers of contradiction with magnificent report and skill, I hereby reserve the right to cross examine as best I can only those who wish to devote their testimony to addressing what my witness has reported this day and in any other written testimony, prophecy or Revelation of God.  After they have exhausted their handful or so of quotes from my witness and have attempted to twist His words asunder and throw out those that they cannot abide in as belonging only upon the brow of Israel, the unfortunate people of God and those allegedly left behind,  I will ask for a brief prayer.  This prayer will be on behalf of those saints who are destined to be killed during the tribulation even while some believe, despite every admonition to the contrary, they will be having a wedding dinner party in heaven over the souls of those slain for the Word of God and the Testimony of Jesus Christ.  These are the saints who do not love their lives so much as to shrink from death but who shall overcome by the Word of their testimony and who will remain faithful to Jesus.

Now it is time to defend what you claim to believe.  You may call your first witness!

Why does the evangelical Church largely ignore Israel.  The answer is dispensational Pre-tribulationism!  One of my deepest concerns is for the people of God.  If you would read your Bible without dispensational lenses on you would realize there will come a day when we will all be ISRAEL (including Israel) and Israel will return to God!

C'mon all you pretribs.  Surely there is someone among you who can be your champion to refute the Bible.  Perhaps Lehay himself can come wrestle the Kraken.  There must be one among you educated enough in the complexities of dispensational theology to explain away what is and will be in favor of what isn't.  Trust me, I have read enough books and heard enough lectures from your teachers and authors to know there is a way to ignore a third of Biblical prophecies if necesarry and also twist the remainder.  

Here is a little diddy I just thought up for you:

Pick and choose, slice and dice, turn it upside down.  
We like two of everything, part of what is sound.  
Second comings, raptures all, resurrections too.
Tribulation, not for us, only for the Jew.  
Don't blame us for leaving soon, we care not much for you.  
There is little we imagine we can ever do.
Listen cloesly when we say, surely comes a day.
When Jesus Christ, has not a soul that's saved and here to stay.    

Who will tell them, thats a q, we don't really care
We are having steak tonight living way up there.
They will see that we are gone and then they will despair
Some may find a Bible that we left behind down there.

What a Church what a mission left in rubble great commission, double trouble for the rubble, we are GONE way past the Hubble!!!

...We Hope, but who gives a crap about all those Jews anyway!  

Christian,

The last great command that we have is to evangelize Israel.  The entire remnant will be saved when the full measure of Gentiles has been brought in.  We must return to the point of our origins and reach the people of God.  When she awakens to the gospel and her hard heart is melted it will be a marvelous sight that will be the most awesome event every witnessed on earth.  There will again be One People of God. Trust me when I tell you this, it will also unleash the most awesome persecution the Church has ever witnessed.  Who will be willing to go when the time is right?


I'll go and if necessary I'll die.

Pre tribs (will) have the nasty habit of wearing the mark of the beast.

That should be enough judgement and condemnation for their bad theology ?

krakenfurst
We are not to suffer God's wrath.  For sure!  He said so.  The question is what is the beginning of His wrath.  Is it the beginning of the tribulation, middle or latter portion.  The idea of us being taken out of destruction is not a new one.  I find many verses leading to pre-trib and middle.  But arguing about this is useless. It does not matter when we go.  We will one day be taken up to meet Him in the clouds.  Live with Christ and don't run astray and He will protect you from the second death.  
------------------------------------------------------------ Krakenfurst wrote
By the way

 Here is a little diddy I just thought up for you:

Pick and choose, slice and dice, turn it upside down.  
We like two of everything, part of what is sound.  
Second comings, raptures all, resurrections too.
Tribulation, not for us, only for the Jew.  
Don't blame us for leaving soon, we care not much for you.  
There is little we imagine we can ever do.
Listen cloesly when we say, surely comes a day.
When Jesus Christ, has not a soul that's saved and here to stay.    

Who will tell them, thats a q, we don't really care
We are having steak tonight living way up there.
They will see that we are gone and then they will despair
Some may find a Bible that we left behind down there.

What a Church what a mission left in rubble great commission, double trouble for the rubble, we are GONE way past the Hubble!!!

...We Hope, but who gives a crap about all those Jews anyway!   ------------------------------------------------------------
Beautiful poem.  Subtle, yet arrogant, it seems.

Arrogant words never motivates people to see it your way.

There will again be One People of God. Trust me when I tell you this, it will also unleash the most awesome persecution the Church has ever witnessed.  Who will be willing to go when the time is right?


Is there now more than 'One People' of God?

A couple questions for the jury to ponder....


  Where does the Bible explicitly say there is a  rapture?  

 Jesus gives testimony ; reference Matt 24. I ask the jury did Jesus , God Himself, commit  perjury  with these words?

“….Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:….
….Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.”

What comes after the ‘last day’ ?

Good Point! Thank you!
------------------------------------------------------------
Hour Unknown

When we search the scriptures and read the passages describing the Lord Jesus' return, we find verses that tell us we won't know the day and hour of that event.  Matthew 25:13 says Jesus will return at an unknown time, while relvelation 12:6 indicates that the Jews will have to wait on the Lord 1260 days, starting when the antichrist stands in the temple of God and delcares himself to be god (2 thes 2:4).  This event will take place at the mid-point of the seven-year tribulation (Dan 9:27).  Note that some people only see a three and a half year tribulation.  In a way, they are correct because the first half of the tribulation will be relatively peaceful compared to the second half.  Nonetheless, peaceful of not, there still remains a 7 year period called the tribulation.  When the Jews flee into the wilderness, they know that all they have to do is wait out those 1260 days (Mat 24:16).  There is no way to apply the phrase "neither the day nor the hour" to this situation.  The only way for these two  viewpoints to be true is to seperate the two distinct events transpiring here: 1) the rapture of the church, which comes before the tribulation; and 2) the return of Jesus to the earth, which takes place roughly 7 years later.  

144,000 will be sealed from the 12 tribes of Israel Rev (7:3).
What about the church?  Are they already in heaven?  No need to seal them then.    

As to the day and hour being unknow, Jesus also tells us that we should know the season:
Mark 13:
26 "At that time men will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.
"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that it is near, right at the door.

and then alittle farther down he says this:

What I say to you, I say to everyone: 'Watch!'

Now, if there are no signs before the rapture, what can we watch for? Like in this passage, Jesus tells us about the gathering, the rapture, and then tells us that we will know when it is near when we see these things happening.

To reconcile these teachings, that we don't know the day or the hour, but we are suppose to watch for the season, is a matter of perspective. Like, if someone were to have a schedule, and tell us only that they would be here in June, but didn't tell us the exact day. They told us only that the signs of the weather would tell us when they would be coming.

No where in the Revelation will you find  antichrist.  John did not pin  the word in Revelation and the Word is God inspired. Why does man say different?  

Hi Reeb...

 Why do you have such a problem with the word antichrist in relation to Revelation? Just because the word is not found in Revelation doesn't mean "the antichrist" is not a proper noun for satan.

 Look at the verses where the word can be found, and see if the descriptions given could be used to describe satan. Consider the fact that satan is the father of all sin, evil, darkness, etc. Without satan, there is no sin.

  1Jo 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

1Jo 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

2Jo 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

 Without satan there could be no antichrist. When people refer to "the antichrist" they are speaking specifically about satan.

 Surely you believe satan can be found in Revelation, is it simply the word that bothers you? I honestly don't understand your position on this one Reba.


 

 1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  


 1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.  


 1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words

 Reba...

 When Jesus returns to earth to destroy satan and his armies, He is depicted in Rev 19:14, as returning with His saints from Heaven. He then wipes out a whole bunch of men...

 Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all [men, both] free and bond, both small and great.  


Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.  



 So, there are some humans returning with Jesus from Heaven, and there are some humans on earth. Why were there some in Heaven?


if there's no rapture, we should all be on earth...and yet the bible clearly shows that not to be the case. The fact that there are some coming from Heaven with Jesus, fits in nicely with a rapture of His church. The fact that many are on earth also seemingly corroborates a rapture theme, where the unbelievers didn't return from Heaven, they apparently remained on earth...missed the flight out.

Bronzesnake.

 


 

Wow  ya hit me twice!


Opps company is here i have to run catch ya later

Don't quite know how that happened.
 Don't quite know how that happened.  ;)

The Doppelganger has been...eliminated! 8)

Bronzesnake.

Ok, Lets see if I can break this down.  By the way very very weak defense pretribals.  Surely you can do better.  Where is your golliath?  Please take if from me, a recovered pre-trib junkie.  Life is great once your cured.  

Two Bombs,

Although I adamantly disagree with pretribs I must also disagree with your assessment of their fate.  I do not believe that pre-tribs will wear the mark of the beast.  This issue is an inhouse debate upon whose position ones salvation does not depend.  I was saved long before I gave up that idea.  I go to a Church with nearly 10,000 of them and I belong to a denomination of nearly 16 million (wag) of them.  They are by far the best Christians I know and I admire them and love them dearly.  But something happens to a persecuted Church that is likely to kindle a flame not ever seen in this land or this church.  They will come around sooner if not later.  However, I do believe some among them will suffer serious retribution from God for adding to what is not written and taking away what is written.

Aiki,

You are incorrect.  Wrath for the unbeliever does not equal tribulation for the saints.  The saints will suffer tribulation, but not the wrath of God.  The tribulation we will suffer will have a purifying effect even though some (many) will actually lose their lives for the cause of Christ.   Also, arguing about this issue is not useless to me; I believe it is important for the Church to know the truth, even so you don’t have to debate it if you don’t want to.  But let me tell you about arrogance.  My Sunday school teacher was teaching a lesson on the pre-trib rapture the other week.  He knows my point of view and so he came up to me before class and insisted I remain silent during the lesson.  I had him in my crosshairs several times while he spewed his propaganda but I refrained.  My pastor teaches it routinely as gospel truth and mocks anyone from the pulpit who believes otherwise, boldly stating that he will say “I told you so” all the way to heaven.   Yet when I write him a letter he kindly declines to respond to any Biblical point made and offers a simple reply that “many have different opinions”.  Opinion?  That is not what you called it last Sunday dude.  Arrogance and condescension abound in the pre-trib camp but they do not want to debate the issue one on one with a Bible in hand.  They are like Mormons and their talking points.  They can’t debate with the scripture on this! I have had this stuff shoved down my throat all my life yet I have yet to find anyone in a congregation of 10,000 to even give me a hearing on what the Bible says when challenged.  But if one of their leaders would turn from that belief the whole lot of them would gasp in despair and probably change their own beliefs they are so codependent on others for what they believe.  I have talked to dozens and dozens of them and not a single one has yet been able to defend his belief from the Word of God.  

Do you know why pre-trib prophecy books sale so well?  Because it aint in the Bible!!! Otherwise folks would read that instead.  But, everyone is looking for some authoritative answer to reassure them.  I used to buy their books and read them by the score to console myself. It's like a drug that temporarily alters reality.

There is something very interesting you should look in to.  Every time the rapture or Day of the Lord is mentioned in the Bible with respect to His coming at a time which is unknown or as a thief it is in reference to it happening in a post tribulational context.  I give you the verses in Matthew 24 & 25, Luke 12, Revelation 16:15, 1 Thess 5, 2 Peter 3 as examples.  However, our command is clearly to know the time and the season, but not necessarily the day and the hour.  Hence Revelation 3:3 says, “Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.” Also 1 Thess. .5:4 says “But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.”  Matt 24:43-44, “But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.”   So clearly the emphasis is that the unbeliever will be caught completely unaware while the believer should be watching and ready when he comes even at an hour when we do not expect him.  To me that means we are not going to be totally surprised nor are we going to be certain exactly when the prophetic clock begins the countdown on the number of days.  

The 144k which consists of 12K each from the 12 tribes of Israel is a very difficult issue because Revelations is so full of figurative language.  But I believe it means far more than just 144k Jewish evangelist.  Rather I believe this is representative of ALL nations who are part of the People of God that come together during this time.  There is serious Biblical evidence for this, for example, in Duet 32:7-9 the Lord says, “Remember the days of old; consider the generations long past. Ask your father and he will tell you, your elders, and they will explain to you.  When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance, when he divided all mankind, he set up boundaries for the peoples according to the number of the sons of Israel. For the LORD's portion is his people, Jacob his allotted inheritance.”  Jacob is also called Israel as you may know.  This is an ancient messianic text that implies that God would at some point gather the nations to himself according to the twelve tribes of Israel and they would ALL be his inheritance.  Amazing! Consider also the description of the Holy City and its inhabitance in Revelation.  Notice how both Israel and the Church appear in the architecture and how often 144 appears in the dimensions of the City described as the Bride of Christ.  You will not find this teaching anywhere else as far as I know, but this is a personal Revelation so I am not going to tell you this is matter of fact, only evidence that this somehow points to the truth.  Wow, I am getting fired up.  There is so much more I could write a book.  Rats, I have no credentials from pretrib institutions so it would never get published in evangelical Christendom.

To Reba,

The word rapture is simply a term used to describe what the Bible says is going to happen when Christ returns.  You know, “we will be caught together with them in the clouds…” that sort of thing.  It signifies what is clearly going to happen to those who are still here on earth when Christ returns regardless of when you believe it takes place.  You can call it foodlemorph if you want but those who are alive when he returns shall be transformed and will be joined with Christ at his coming.  The question is whether you believe in a pre-trib foodlemorph or post trib foodlemorph.  After the foodlemorph which the Bible says will take place on the last day, comes the millennial reign and then eternity.

As for the people of God issue please don’t get me started.   This is really a very deep issue, but I would ask you to look in your Bible and ponder the meaning of the two olive trees or two olive Branches as described in Zech., Romans and Revelation.  There is a separation of the two at present, meaning Israel and the Church but there is clearly a point in time when the two shall be joined together.


C'mon pre-tribbers, lets get those charts out.  Read a few more books if you must.  The challenge you are dealing with is that I have read your books and the entirety of the Bible more than once with specific emphasis on finding evidence to support exactly what you believe.  You see I was once a pre-tribber determined to prove it was true.  Yet I was convicted to believe otherwise not by some book, preacher or pamplet but by what I did discover in the Bible and that is what I decided to believe.  As an ex pre-tribber I can say with conviction you have probably not read the Bible in search of this question as I have, otherwise you would not be a pre-tribber.  You will not find something that I haven't read and pondered it in light of this question, but good luck anyway.  The Kraken prince (child of the king Jesus) awaits to sink your ship.

Krakenfuerst:

The disappointment and dispair among most pre-tribulation believers will be so devastatingly great that certain lies and deceptions will readily be accepted and taken as 'gospel' as to soften the blow.

This week I have seen a person getting injected with the beastchip
( http://omroep.vara.nl/mediaarchief.jsp?maintopic=vara_media_archief&offset=25 )
And around the same day a well known local christian said it's all right when someone takes that chip.

To do the talk-talk is something completely different then doing the walk-walk. Pre-tribbers are also well known for their lukewarm attitude and often share the same problems that the lukewarm church in Laodicea had. This lukewarm church got vomited out of the body. Afterwards He will reject those saying : "I know thee not"

One can obtain but one can also loose ones salvation

God says that some will face tribulation and wrath, some will not...

Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:  


 Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,  


Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;  


Rom 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:  

 The man who penned the word antichrist (John) is the same who penned The Revelation he did not use the term i respect his authorty, beleaving he had his reasons. We know the scripture is God inspired.

Which of the verses below speak of one central figure?

 many are spoke of here

 Don't you think satan knows Jesus is the Son of God and knows  He was here and went to the Cross?


Let me try and explain.. 40+ years being tought about 'the antichrist' i was raised a 'dispy' i have seen 'the charts' all my life. I remember asking " Dad, the bible doesnt say  X Y Z  why do we  say it does?  Getting older i saw we fit scripture to our theology when we should be fitting our theology to scripture. A subbtle difference but a real one. No where in scripture are we asked to search and disire to figure out who what may be some supposed antichrist. Mans theology has given the  book writers the doom saysers an icon.


 
 1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  


 1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.  


 1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words

 
 Sneakysnake, I never said or implied there was no second coming or as you say rapture. I will go on record as saying I do not accept the popular thoughts on ‘rapture’ and I am dumb enough to state so and not have a clear way of stating what I do believe.

Reba,

The problem is, there is no popular view about the rapture.  You are correct for being skeptical of what men say.  I desired to prove what I was taught to believe by finding it in the Bible.  To my despair I was proven wrong.  So I decided to accept what the Bible says instead of all the man made theology surrounding the pre-trib rapture.  I also discovered along the way there were many who agree with what I found out on my own.  You apparently aren't certain what you believe at this point.  I have trouble with understanding where you are coming from on this issue.   Please elaborate on your position so we can converse.  Its a complicated subject but surely you have reached some conclusions.


2 Bombs,

I don't want you to lure me into a debate on this thread about whether one can lose their salvation.  This is about the rapture but If you want to debate it please post a topic and I will be glad to get into it with you.  But for the record I believe you are flat out wrong.  

Have you sinned since you came to Christ.  If what you say is true then you were lost at that moment and must be saved again.  We do not have the power to lose our salvation just because we sin again.  If we say we do not sin then we are liars.  Just as we did not have the power to obtain a free gift on our own merits we do not have the power to lose it on our own merits.  It was given to us freely once and for all including the faith that it takes to accept it.  All we have to do is believe and act on that faith.  Once we believe, if we truly do, we are transformed and that is something that is not up to us to accomplish but it is the gift of God.  You put to much stake in what YOU did verses what GOD did if you believe otherwise.  You didn't save yourself God saved you and he will not lose a single one promised to him and nothing can take you away from him.  The reality is that even once we are saved we are not perfect but we are saved for the purpose of becomming perfect in Christ and that will happen, but it doesn't happen as long as we are in this body.

By the way, how's life treating you in South Africa.

All,

The Kraken still awaiteth for someone to defend the pre-trib rapture.  The jury is getting wrestless.  Perhaps some of you are reading your books again, consulting with experts and going over your charts and need a little more time.  Let me give you a little advice.  It wont help.  I am glancing up at my bookshelf and laughing at all the pre-trib prophecy books I have from all the different authors like Wolvoord, LeHaye, Lindsay, Hagee Bloomfield and others, just to name a few.  There is only one book that counts and that is the Bible.  Meanwhile I am just waiting here chatting with the Bomber, Reba and the Snake.

Reba,

The problem is, there is no popular view about the rapture.  "You apparently aren't certain what you believe at this point."

Please dont confuse my lack of writing/word skills to my certainty as a believer. I am posttrib as i fall into the the camp labled orthodox preterism.

Rebia,

I am not confusing your uncertainty with anything having to do with whether you are a believer.  I was only implying that I thought you sounded uncertain about your beliefs concering the rapture.  But I have noticed that you simply like to disagree without saying what you do agree with.  I thought you were an atheist before but that was another....nevermind I am trying to forget.  So what is orthodox preterism with respect to post tribulational.  I really want to know.  Can you give me some insight on that.  Heck, for all I know I might be a postribulational unorthodox discombobulationalist.

Frakenfuerst: Life is treating me nice over there, we'll be moving there permanent within 2 months time.

Back to the debate: when I use the term pre-trib believer I am talking about a whole group of people that were drawn to Christ by means of a fairytale. This fairytale is that we're outta here before or at the start of the 70th week of Daniel; the start of "Jacobs trouble". Some pre-trib believers might escape the lie. Others are already so sucked into the lie (eg: the US is waging a righteous war against terrorism) that the next lie (more security for wearing the beastchip) is already in place.

In that light I want you to read the following parable:

Luk 14:16   Then said he unto him, A certain man made a great supper, and bade many:
Luk 14:17   And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready.
Luk 14:18   And they all with one [consent] began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused.
Luk 14:19   And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused.
Luk 14:20   And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.
Luk 14:21   So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind.
Luk 14:22   And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room.
Luk 14:23   And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel [them] to come in, that my house may be filled.
Luk 14:24   For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.

and further on:
Luk 14:33   So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

_____________________
paraiteomai {par-ahee-teh'-om-ahee} to make excuse
1) to ask along side, beg to have near one
a) to obtain by entreaty
b) to beg from, to ask for, supplicate
2) to avert by entreaty or seek to avert, to deprecate
a) to entreat that ... not
b) to refuse, decline
c) to shun, avoid
d) to avert displeasure by entreaty
1) to beg pardon, crave indulgence, to excuse
2) of one excusing himself for not accepting a wedding invitation to a feast
___________________

as to 1d > Rev 3:17   Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:  [talking about Laodicea, the lukewarm church of the last days]
Rev 3:19   As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
____________________

Jesus himself will ask all at the end of the end to all of his discipes, the multitudes, the millions the test: for a short period of time.

Dan 11:35   And [some] of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make [them] white, [even] to the time of the end: because [it is] yet for a time appointed.

And the result will be that he will have the refined remnant at the end of this period :

Jhn 6:68   Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

No Laodicean will enter the kingkom of God unless they repent from their lush way of life, and the way to make that sure we all shall suffer (a short time) by means of not wearing the mark of the beast, clearly showing to God that we are serious and believe:

Mat 19:21   Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go [and] sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come [and] follow me.
Mat 19:22   But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
Mat 19:23   Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.

In John, Jesus clearly connects His own rapture to the forsaking of the flesh. So should we, and take heed when we espect our own:

Jhn 6:62   [What] and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
Jhn 6:63   It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.

And hereby I rest my case: for it has been proven time and time again.

I was taught from a child pretrib rapture, then I began to study the scripture itself. The scripture that convinced me that it would not happen was
2Th 2:2  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

I don't want this to be so, because I do believe that day is upon us.  O how I wish that I believed what I was taught from a child. Especially when Revelations tell us that satan will work to kill so many of us, and it appears by beheading!
I am not young anymore, and would welcome a pre-trib rapture, but now I  pray for strength and endurance, and how to hold my faith in patience..
Yet even so Lord Jesus come.  :)

Amen

SHEESH


My words will not do justice to the theology but in a nut shell here goes I dont like being sent to sites so i will try .... I this is me not a group or a movement just my little ol thoughts...

I believe in the return of Christ...

I believe what we read in Revelation was God's distruction of the old covenant the distruction of Jerusalem's temple and the 'temple life' .  The 'generation' that died, ended  was the generation that murdered Jesus (luke 11). I believe the CROSS to be the center of all history past and future.

Reba...
 
 
 Sneakysnake?
I might be a lot of things, but sneaky is not one of them. I don't really appreciate being called that my friend.


Kraken...
 I have a problem with Christians who accuse other Christians of mocking those who oppose their own doctrinal beliefs, and yet they believe it's ok if they do it...

kraken quote...
 
 You have continually mocked and insulted others who believe in a pre-trib rapture. Your entire opening post is loaded with mocking accusations my friend...

 




 It's also very ironic that your entire argument against a pre-trib raptures lies in the way pre-tribbers seemingly extract information out of the scriptures through examination of biblical clues. You express that, the bible doesn't explicitly say their is a pre-tib rapture...

 
In other words, if the bible doesn't explicitly express "it" then "it" is false.

 The irony is that you seem to feel it's ok for yourself to draw conclusions based on Biblical clues, yet, when others do it they are "fooled by fairytales" :D
 

Where does the Bible explicitly say the 144,000 are  "representative of ALL nations who are part of the People of God that come together during this time"

On the contrary, the Bible explicitly says the 144,000 are JEWS.

 You are a walking, breathing contradiction my friend. Your strongest argument is that you have the correct answers, as though directly from God the Father, whereas those who oppose your views are those who..


 You need to come down off your high horse, and realize that it is just as likely that you may be as wrong as you claim we are. Unless, of course, you believe you are infallible.

 Debate is fine, it's how we learn. However, you go further than just debate, you mock and insult from your position of self righteous arrogance.

Bronzesnake.

Before i read any more of your post let me say SORRY :'( no offence was meant. My daughter had a toy snake she called Sneakyssnake. I will not do that again.  

There is not one specific place in the Bible where the Rapture can be found. The Bible is not set up as a "fact by fact" listing. We must take the Bible literally. We must also read and understand what God is telling us. We can take several verses from different books and come up with a "total" picture.

 For example...

 Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.  

 If you read Dan 9:27 you will see that satan signs a seven year peace deal. It turns out to be a false peace, however, most Christians agree that satan's seven year peace deal is also the seven year tribulation time. We know that Jesus returns at the end of the seven year tribulation. So, we can know when Jesus returns at the second coming. Therefore, verses such as Mat.24:36 and others which speak of a day and hour which no man shall know, must be relating another event besides the actual second coming. I believe these verses speak of the Rapture.


 Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe [were], so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.  

 In the days of Noah, God warned people through Noah, that there was a devastating judgement coming which they could only survive by entering the arc. Noah and his family were not left to float with the unbelievers, not even for a minute. Noah and his family never even felt so much as a single drop of rain on the heads. Noah and his family entered the arc before the rain came...before God's judgement began. In Mat 24:37 , Jesus says it will be the same for Christians at the rapture.
 Noah and his family were lifted up on the waves, and away from God's judgement. We will be lifted up on the clouds and away from God's judgement.


 Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,  


 Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.  

These verses describe some being taken, and others being left behind...

 Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.  


 Mat 24:41 Two [women shall be] grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.  


 Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

 1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

 1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.  


 1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

 Being left to face wrath and or tribulation ( God's judgement)
Doesn't sound too comforting to me.

 Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.  

 This verse must really bug post tribers and those who don't believe in any rapture at all. It clearly shows God's saints (Christians) returning with Jesus. Notice where we came from?God says we were in Heaven.

 When we put all these verses (and there are more) together, we can come up with a big picture.

Bronzesnake.

Noah safely went through the flood.

Wrath = one thing
Trib = another

Just as everyone always seperates the
first from latter part of the 70th week......

 Now I feel bad... :-[

 I wasn't sure if you were being serious, or just playful...
Now that I know about "sneakysnake" I feel a wee bit foolish for having thought of you in a bad light.
You have always seemed so honest and even playful at times...
I am sorry I doubted you Reeb! :)

Bronzesnake.

Actually...Noah was lifted up and out of danger.
Not one human who went through the flood survived.

 The tribulation is God's wrath in action.
How can you seperate them?

   :D Now back to fun fighting :D Thanks Mr. Bronzesnake :D

You are right Noah safely went through the flood, however, he was able to hear all that was going on around him. Why do you think God had to seal the door? Noah was a human who had feelings, for women, children,and babes.
In Noah's days scripture says violence (hamas) filled the earth. We are seeing the same things in these last days, and God can protect us through, but I don't think that he is going to "lift us out"

Matt 6:28-7:1

28 And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:

29 And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.

30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?

31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?

32(For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.

33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.
Rom 5:17

17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
KJV

Matt 28:18

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.KJV

We are the KINGS kids Jesus was/is victorius! HE is our rest or peace or hope.... Ol Peter would still be walking on the water if he haddent taken his eyes off Jesus. Pete look at the things around himself and started to sink..... Keep you eyes on HIM only in HIM is there hope... Trust your heavenly Father to give you bread HE will not give you stone...

Why not ? It's cause and effect in action.

Exactly!

Bomber,

The Church and its association with Israel in the last days is an interesting portrait in scripture.  One of the important things that I do not agree with concerning pre-trib doctrine is that it assumes incorrectly that all Christians, rather than many being Laodiceans, are all Philadelphians and are promised not to go through the tribulation because they equate that with wrath.  In other words the final condition of the Church is perhaps no better than it is today, a deeply divided and quarrelsome bunch of denominations.   But the Bible speaks of a singular purified Church.  It speaks of a Church purified and made righteous through tribulation and a time of trouble.  It speaks of a people that God himself does a work among to bring about a truly righteous Church that will be without spot or blemish when Christ returns.   This is not a work we can undertake ourselves but it is one in which the Holy Spirit will guide.  Pre-tribs at present consider this a fairytale even though it is clearly illustrated in the prophetic scripture.  That is why I see the pre-trib doctrine as a great evil.  Furthermore, this Church will include the remnant of Israel who will make a wholesale return to Christ at some point.  There is nothing but a cataclysm of Biblical proportions that can propel these events.  This is precisely what the verse in Daniel 11:35 alludes to.

I must disagree with your assessment of what it means to be a Christian.  People do not come to Christ under false pretense if they truly have come to him.  The soundness of the doctrine of salvation makes it very easy to become saved so that even a child can understand, but very difficult to accept on a purely intellectual level.  Once in that infantile condition it is up to Christians to allow God to perform a work in our lives that transforms us into mature Christians.   The problem is there are many suckling infants in the Church who have never grown past the desire for milk to a level where they eat solid food.  That food is the Word of God and doing the will of God.

I do not see how the “lie” has any connection to the war in Iraq or against terrorism.  That is a purely short sighted political statement that has no basis in fact.  The US war against terrorism is NOT part of the great lie.  If you are convinced that the mark of the beast is merely a chip then that is your opinion, but it is much deeper than that.  I personally would not accept a chip for numerous reasons, but it certainly has no basis in scripture for being the mark that condemns someone to hell unless it is accompanied by an affirmative denial that Jesus Christ is Lord.  That is the lie.  The mark is a statement of what you believe and it is accompanied by what you do.  The mark on the forehead or right hand alludes to one’s beliefs and the works of your hands.  It is the counter to the seal of God that will accompany believers.  For this reason it will be impossible for someone who is truly saved to accept the mark and worship the beast.  The Bible mentions a day when there will be a separation of the peoples before the day of the Lord into two camps, those who are truly righteous and those who are not.   There will be a clear distinction between the two.  Those who are not born of Christ will accept the mark and those who belong to Christ will not.  The Bible also says that Jesus will not lose a single one that is promised to Him

Snake,

There is a distinction between tribulation for the saints and the wrath of God for the unbeliever.  The saints will suffer many things, no less than what the early Church suffered in its infancy, at the hands of the beast in Revelation.  Just as many were put to death for their faith and overcame, so too will those who are alive during this time make no less a sacrifice.  

Rev 7:14.  “I answered, "Sir, you know."   And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”

John 16:33 “I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world.”

Romans 8:35-25, “Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword?  As it is written: "For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered."”

Rev 2:10, “Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.”

Rev 6:9, “When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained.”

Rev 13:7, “He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them…”

The problem with so many in the Church in America is that they do not have any idea what is going to happen to them.  Suffering for their faith to them means they will have to face some office ridicule or suffer a financial setback.  They truly believe they will be raptured from behind the steering wheel of their SUVs or while in an easy chair watching a ball game.   Amazingly they have conveniently left out what the Bible says and they neatly segregate themselves from the saints of Revelation by virtue of dispensationalism.  They won’t be here, so they claim, and the scriptures are only references to those unfortunate fools who are left behind and become saved afterward.  There will come a day when ALL your gold and money will be worthless.  The Church needs to wake up!

Crystal

Way to go!   Diddo here!  I have had this pre-trib propaganda junk taught to me ever since I was a little nub.  I was always very interested in prophecy so I wanted to find it for myself.   So, I started to read the Bible and low and behold the rapture is not only absent from the Bible it is directly and convincingly refuted by the Bible.  I was crushed for a little while, and then I became increasingly upset that I was not being told the truth.  I had an epiphany that I should fight it because it is deceptive and in my view that makes it evil.


Ebia,

I hardly understand a darn thing you said.    Other than I gather you believe Revelation is a metaphor for what has already taken place.  I have to disagree because it is linked to so many events in the Old Testament and New that have yet to see their fulfillment as it concerns Israel and the Church.  

Mat 24:21   For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22   And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Dan 12:6   And [one] said to the man clothed in linen, which [was] upon the waters of the river, How long [shall it be to] the end of these wonders?
Dan 12:7   And I heard the man clothed in linen, which [was] upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that [it shall be] for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these [things] shall be finished.

1 + 2 + 0.5 = 3.5 years made up of 360 days, halfway the 70th week (one way or the other; it *is* separated and has always been)

Hi Kraken,

At first I didn't want to disclose this :

Dan 11:34   Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.

Rev 3:8   I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
Rev 3:9   Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

Philadelphia and an already judged Loadicean Church living together in the end time. Not all that say "Lord, Lord" can enter into the kingdom.

Greetings

I am amazed that God cant count to 70 with out studdering.

There are 2000 years between 69 and 70, not something to be sneezed at....

How many between    years 1 and 2   or 2 and 3  or 3 and 4.....20 and 21   ....34 and 40  ?

 Please clarify your position.

 We pre-tribs believe we will be raptured before God's wrath. We believe tribulation is God's wrath in action. We also believe that many will be saved during the tribulation. So the verses you pasted such as Mat 24:22" the elect's sake" relates to them.

As far as the reference to Daniel's 70th week...I don't see the point you are trying to make. We believe satan will take control of earth for seven years. The first three and a half years by means of spiritual possession of a world leader who appears to be a great peace maker. The final three and a half years, satan takes over in physical form and claims to be God.

 We believe satan signs a seven year peace pact, where the world will be at peace for the first time in recorded history. However, it is a false peace...In the middle of the peace treaty things fall apart, and wars break out. At the end of the seven years, the Lord returns from Heaven with His saints, as is depicted in Rev 19:14 and wipes out all the armies of satan. satan and company are then tossed into the pit for the thousand year reign of Jesus and His saints.

You good folks have totally ignored Rev 19:14, probably due to the fact that you can not adequately explain how His saints (us) are described following Jesus from Heaven to the earth. God says we were in Heaven.

 Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.  


 Rev 19:12 His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.  


 Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.  


Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.  


 How did we get there? Rapture 1Th 4:16

 When did we get there? Before Wrath or Tribulation. Rev 4:1

 You also pass by...1Th 4:16-18

1Th 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:


 1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.  

 If, as I believe, these verses are describing a pre-trib rapture, then I would expect that there should be some corroborating evidence to be found in Revelation, before wrath or tribulation begin...you will agree, no doubt.

 If I am wrong, and the mid-trib view is correct, then the evidence will be found in Revelation at the appropriate place which corresponds with a rapture during the wrath or tribulation. Ditto for pre-wrath

 If this event which depicts His saints rising up to the clouds to meet Him, happens at his second coming, then the evidence will be found in Revelation 19 somewhere before 19:14 which depicts His saints returning to earth from heaven.

 So where is the corroborating evidence found in the Bible?
Let's see...

 We must find a place where we see...The Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God

 Where can these elements be found?

Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.  

 Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,  


Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send [it] unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.  


 Rev 1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;  


 Rev 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks [one] like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.  

 So here in Rev 1 we have the Lord shouting...
a great voice, as of a trumpet

Seven angels accompany Him "I saw seven golden candlesticks"

the Lord appearing to John while he was on the Isle of Patmos. The Lord himself shall descend from heaven


Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door [was] opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard [was] as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.  

 Here in Rev 4:1 we once again hear the trump of God. The interesting thing is that this is the last time you can find the trump of God being sounded in Revelation.
This lines up perfectly with...

 1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

  1Cr 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

 So you can find all the elements occurring in Rev 1 & Rev 4 which is well before wrath and tribulation.

 Like I've stated before...If I'm wrong about the timing, I'll catch the flight whenever it leaves the station. The fact that we are described in Rev 19:14 returning with Jesus from Heaven, proves we were Raptured, otherwise we wouldn't have been in Heaven.

Bronzesnake

I can not lay out my thoughts as nicely as  you Mr. Snake so maybe  my scattered thoughts will scatter your brain. :P


Jesus tells us the  resurrection is the last day. John 6 and john 12.. Jesus uses the words 'last day' not last days but day (singler) as in time certain. I would conclued from the creators use of the phrase 'last day' that there will be no more 'time' no more days the calandar stops.  Any thoughts?

My biggest problem in agreeing wiht the timing you all are talking about is Revelation 1 verses 1 - 3 .


I just dont get the skipping of time ... year 67, 68, 69,. . . . . . .  . . . . . . 70?  Show me scripture that you believe shows God timing to be out of wack.

Bronzesnake : the problem here is that 90% of the scriptures you use in your last post are also my defense for a mid-trib (or: shortened trib) Albeit with a different interpretation, and as we are speaking of a mere 3.5 years in time I beg to differ, and refer to my website http://surf.to/twobombs for more explanations of my view. (no hard feelings, but i'm just trying avert a loophole here)

Reba: the gap is caused by the rejection of the Jew on the square.
God send them on diaspora for 2000 years, and has collected them the last 40 years or so back to land, setting the profetic clock to tick the last years (of weekdays) away.

As if God didn't know Christ would be rejected. The Crosss was not an after thought.

Reba: One cannot judge someone for something one hasn't committed yet. Why do you think the diciples asked Jesus time-and-again when He would become King of Israel ?

It is actually in that timeframe where a large portion of your ideas are challenged:

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

I might have seen too much TV recently, but me thinks Jerusalem right now lacks the following ingredients:

- no more transgression
- end of sins
- everlasting righteousness

Week 70 hasn't been fullfilled yet, yet it will come.

Bronze: could you please use some OT scripture to back the (exorbitant) use of Revelation scripture ?

Jesus Christ was born King.

His Kingdom is without end.

Luke 1:32-33

32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
KJV

Matt 2:1-2
2:1 Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,

2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.
KJV

Isa 9:6-7

6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
KJV


  Twobombs, I do hope you will directly answer a simple direct question. Do you believe the  rejection of Jesus was a suprise to God and  the Cross etc was an 'after thought'.?

"Pre-tribbers", as I affectionately call them, have gotten confused because it says, "God hath not appointed us unto wrath".

There is the last "week" of Daniel 9, which is clearly begun when the one we know as the Antichrist, makes his "holy convenant" with many. It is clearly stated in these verses that he will place his "abomiination of desolation in the holy place" in the midst of the week.

This breaking of the covenant by the Antirchrist begins the three-and-a-half years of the Tribulation, as Jesus Christ Himself also referred to it in Matthew 24, et.al.

Then "Immediately after the Tribulation of those days", Jesus refers to how the elect will be taken up, gathered together to him in the sky. Every eye shall see Him (it's not going to be secret, or the mystery of the vanishings, like one popular fiction series puts it). This is the time of the seven Trumpets of Revelation.

There is a gap of a number of days from that event up to Armageddon. This is the period during which the Cups of Wrath are poured out upon the Earth, upon those who did not receive the truth and love of Jesus Christ.

The last cup of the wrath of God, of course, is Armageddon.

Hi reba,

Interestingly you are quoting the words from exactly the same celestian being that spoke not only to Maria but also to Daniel ; Gabriel.

In Daniel Gabriel says:

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Those 70 weeks seem contigues, but are not as I previously pointed out. Isiah 53 clearly describes in the life of Christ on this world, and the the suffering and sacrifices He made for our redemption. Paul says :

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

But our redemption isn't enough; He came for His bretheren, and in this day and age there will be a short period in which Israel will turn back to their Messiah:

Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn.

The Word, however, cannot be in contradiction; the 70 sevens are contigues when concerned to the people of Daniel (the Jews) to/of whom Gabriel spoke: partial blindness connects the 69th with 70th week (by means of Zech 12:10)

To answer whether the cross was an 'accident' I refer to:
Gen 3:15   And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

FYI a broader picture,
2B

 Maybe you should read it again, because after Jesus says "Immediately after the Tribulation of those days", He does not refer to " to how the elect will be taken up, gathered together to him in the sky" He actually describes His second coming. He actually says that He sends His angels to gather us from Heaven. We are already there - the rapture has already taken place.


Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.  

 This verse (above) describes His second coming. Not the rapture.



 Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.  

This verse fits in with Rev 19:17-18


 Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:  

 These events can be found in Rev 6



 Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.  

 This is His second coming as described in Rev 19:11-21


 Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.  

 We follow Jesus from Heaven to earth at His second coming which can be found in Rev 19:14

 Clearly we are already in Heaven. Jesus is sending His angels to gather us from Heaven. We're not being caught up to Heaven, we're being summoned from Heaven.


 I know "mid-tribbers" as I affectionately call them, read 2Thes 2:3 and point out that before the rapture takes place, the "man of sin" must first be revealed. However, if you read the line before that, you'll find something rather curious. Have another look...

 2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

 "except there come a falling away first" This "falling away is a reference to the rapture. (Read next post) We are raptured before satan appears.

Bronzesnake.

 The following was posted by 2nd Timothy from the Best of Paul2's Pre-Trib. Rapture pages Reply #378 on: April 27, 2004


It is important to note that Paul uses a definite article with the noun apostasia. What does this mean? Davey notes the following: "Since the Greek language does not need an article to make the noun definite, it becomes clear that with the usage of the article reference is being made to something in particular. In 2 Thessalonians 2:3 the word apostasia is prefaced by the definite article which means that Paul is pointing to a particular type of departure  

clearly known to the Thessalonian church" (Davey, Apostesia," p. 47). Dr. Lewis provides a likely answer when he notes that the definite article serves to make a word distinct and draw attention to it. In this instance he believes that its purpose is "to denote a previous reference." "The departure previously referred to was 'our being gathered to him’ (v.1) and our being 'caught up' with the Lord and the raptured dead in the clouds (I Thess. 4:17),’ notes Dr. Lewis (Gordon R. Lewis & Bruce A. Demarest, Integrative Theology 3 vols. in 1 [Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1996], vol. 3, p. 420).  The  "departure" was something that Paul and his readers clearly had a mutual understanding about. Paul says in verse 5, "Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?"    

The use of the definite article would also support the notion that Paul spoke of a clear, discernable event. A physical departure, like the rapture, would fit just such a notion. However, the New Testament teaches that apostasy had already arrived in the first century (cf. Acts 20:27-32; 1 Tim. 4:1-5; 2 Tim. 3:1-9; 2 Pet. 2:1-3; Jude 3-4, 17-21), and thus such a process would not denote a clear event as demanded by the language of this passage. Understanding departure as the rapture would satisfy the nuance of this text. E. Schuyler English explains as follows:  

"Again, how would the Thessalonians, or Christians in any century since, be qualified to recognize the apostasy when it should come, assuming, simply for the sake of this inquiry, that the Church might be on earth when it does come? There has been apostasy from God, rebellion against Him, since time began" (E. Schuyler English, Re-Thinking the Rapture ( Neptune, NJ: Loiseaux Brothers, 1954), p. 70.  

Whatever Paul is referring to in his reference to "the departure," was something that both the Thessalonian believers and he had discussed in-depth previously. When we examine Paul's first letter to the Thessalonians, he never mentions the doctrine of apostasy; however, virtually every chapter in that epistle speaks of the rapture (cf. 1:9-10; 2:19; probably 3:13; 4:13-17; 5:1-11). In these passages, Paul has used a variety of Greek terms to describe the rapture. It  should not be surprising that he uses another term to reference the rapture in 2 Thessalonians 2:3. Dr. House tells us:  

"Remember, the Thessalonians had been led astray by the false teaching (2:2-3) that the Day of the Lord had already come. This was confusing because Paul offered great hope, in the first letter, of a departure to be with Christ and a rescue from God's wrath. Now a letter purporting to be from Paul seems to say that they would first have to go through the Day of the Lord. Paul then clarified his prior teaching by emphasizing that they had no need to worry. They could again be comforted because the departure he had discussed in his first letter, and in his teaching while with them, was still the truth. The departure of Christians to be with Christ, and the subsequent revelation of the lawless one, Paul argues, is proof that the Day of the Lord had not begun as they had thought. This understanding of apostasia makes much more sense than the view that they are to be comforted (v. 2) because a defection from the faith must precede the Day of the Lord. The entire second chapter (as well as I Thessalonians 4:18; 5:11) serves to comfort (see w. 2, 3, 17), supplied by a reassurance of Christ's coming as taught in his first letter " (House, "Apostesia," pp. 275-76).  

Departure and The Restrainer

Since pretribulationists believe that the restrainer mentioned in verses 6 and 7 is the Holy Spirit and teaches a pretrib rapture, then it should not be surprising to see that there is a similar progression of thought in the progression of verse 3. Allan MacRae, president of Faith Theological Seminary, in a letter to Schuyler English has said the following concerning this matter:  

"I wonder if you have noticed the striking parallel between this verse and verses, 7-8, a little further down. According to your suggestion verse 3 mentions the departure of the church as coming first, and then tells of the revealing of the man of sin. In verses 7 and 8 we find the identical sequence. Verse 7 tells of the removal of the Church; verse 8 says: 'And then shall that Wicked be revealed.' Thus close examination of the passage shows an inner unity and coherence, if we take the word apostasia in its general sense of 'departure,' while a superficial examination would easily lead to an erroneous interpretation as 'falling away' because of the proximity of the mention of the man of sin" (Allan A. MacRae, Letter to E. Schuyler English, published in "Let the Prophets Speak," Our Hope, [vol. LVI, num 12; June 1950], p. 725).  

Kenneth Wuest, a Greek scholar from Moody Bible Institute, added the following contextual support to taking apostasia as a physical departure:  

"But then hee apostasia of which Paul is speaking, precedes the revelation of Antichrist in his true identity, and is to katechon that which holds back his revelation (2:6). The hee apostasia, therefore, cannot be either a general apostasy in Christendom which does precede the coming of Antichrist, nor can it be the particular apostasy which is the result of his activities in making himself the alone object of worship. Furthermore, that which holds back his revelation (vs, 3) is vitally connected with hoo katechoon (vs. 7), He who holds back the same event. The latter is, in my opinion, the Holy Spirit and His activities in the Church. All of which means that I am driven to the inescapable conclusion that the hee apostasia (vs. 3) refers to the Rapture of the Church which precedes the Day of the Lord, and holds back the revelation of the Man of Sin who ushers in the world-aspect of that period" (Kenneth S. Wuest, Letter to E. Schuyler English, published in "Let the Prophets Speak," Our Hope, [vol. LVI, num 12; June 1950], p. 731).  

Conclusion  

The fact that apostasia most likely has the meaning of physical departure is a clear support for pretribulationism. If this is true (Dr. Tim LaHaye and I believe that it is), then it means that a clear prophetic sequence is laid out by Paul early in his Apostolic' ministry. Paul teaches in 2 Thessalonians 2 that the rapture will occur first, before the Day of the Lord commences. It is not until after the beginning of the Day of the Lord that the Antichrist is released, resulting in the events described by him in chapter 2 of 2 Thessalonians. This is the only interpretation that provides hope for a discomforted people.”

  Dr. Thomas Ice’s article and its sources are found in Pre-Trib Perspective March, 2004, Vol. 8, No. 11: “Is the Rapture in 2 Thessalonians 2:3?
--Terry

Rapture would definately tip the balance, yet
the salt of the earth losing its taste should prove
to be more then enough to put AC on the scene...

apostasia {ap-os-tas-ee'-ah} 2Th 2:3
1) a falling away, defection, apostasy

Have a nice one,
2B

Thanks Twobombs,

I think that was a direct answer like  yes or no.  :P

Christ is king the victory was/is won i am not looking for an earthly King as the Israelites did 2000 years ago. AS He said my Kingdom is not of this world.

I spent about 40 years accepting a teaching 'bout like yours, which i have grown to reject. I will attempt to  tell you why ....

Twobombs there is One Salvation One Christ One Lamb One Cross. Man is  not saved by parental blood line. Man is saved by the shed blood of Jesus Christ. This topic has been battled here for years.

The scripture says 'today is the day of salvation'.I do not read a passage where God has excluded a peoples. In God's written Word we are told 'we are all one in Christ'.

Things are happenig here at my house my train of thought is gone, hopefully i will remember it to get it back....

Oi Reba,

With Jacobs trouble, there is also a Joseph around that will reveal himself, before the end of the 7 year drought....

Gen 45:4   And Joseph said unto his brethren, Come near to me, I pray you. And they came near. And he said, I [am] Joseph your brother, whom ye sold into Egypt.
Gen 45:5   Now therefore be not grieved, nor angry with yourselves, that ye sold me hither: for God did send me before you to preserve life.
Gen 45:6   For these two years [hath] the famine [been] in the land: and yet [there are] five years, in the which [there shall] neither [be] earing nor harvest.

And that's my train of thought....

FYI,
Aryan

So, if the tribulation is the wrath of God, and Satan is controling the earth, and setting up the greatest abomination of all time, committing the greatest descration and act of idolatry ever, does that make Satan God's agent for his wrath?

This is kind of like the Preterist argument, that the Roman armies were the wrath of God falling down on Jerusalem.

Here is what Isaiah says:
Isaiah 2:
10Enter into the rock, and hide in the dust,
        From the terror of the LORD
        And the glory of His majesty.
        11The lofty looks of man shall be humbled,
        The haughtiness of men shall be bowed down,
        And the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.

        12For the day of the LORD of hosts
        Shall come upon everything proud and lofty,
        Upon everything lifted up--
        And it shall be brought low--
        13Upon all the cedars of Lebanon that are high and lifted up,
        And upon all the oaks of Bashan;
        14Upon all the high mountains,
        And upon all the hills that are lifted up;
        15Upon every high tower,
        And upon every fortified wall;
        16Upon all the ships of Tarshish,
        And upon all the beautiful sloops.
        17The loftiness of man shall be bowed down,
        And the haughtiness of men shall be brought low;
        The LORD alone will be exalted in that day,
        18But the idols He shall utterly abolish.

So then, how can the wrath of God be poured out by the devil? Is this the wrath of God? :
Revelation 6:
9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.


So here, if this is God's wrath, being poured out by Satan, then God is killing his own children??

It doesn't make sense to define the tribulation period as "the wrath of God" which believers are spared from (1 Thes 4).


Well, lets read it in Mark:
Mark 13:
24 "But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

Is this a third rapture? The first one in 1 Thessalonians 4, the second one in Matthew 24 and now a third in Mark 13?

Really, it's obvious that it can't be read that way;

In my opinion there is only one event being described in these 3 passages.  

eddielee.

 Where did I say satan pours out wrath?

God pours out His wrath on all inhabitants of earth...including satan.

 Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.  

 This isn't a rapture eddielee, it's not a catching up to Heaven, it's a gathering of His saints from heaven.

However, there are two raptures. One for His faithful saints before the tribulation, and one for the tribulation saints who were beheaded for refusing to worship the beast, or take his mark. They were beheaded.

Bronzesnake.

If: a.) The wrath of God starts at the beginning of the 70th week...
   And:  b.) Satan is controlling the world during the 70th week...
     Then: c.) God alone is not being exalted during his wrath.
        Thus: d.) God's wrath cannot coincide with Satan's control over the world.


So this event is not the same as Mark 13?

24"But in those days, following that distress,
   " 'the sun will be darkened,
       and the moon will not give its light;
    25the stars will fall from the sky,
       and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'
26"At that time men will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.

The pretrib view is that Mark 13 and Matthew 24 are not describing the same gathering of the elect?
 

Wow,

So many excellent posts to respond to I don’t know where to begin.  The bronze serpent wins the award for having the most well ordered and logical arguments in favor of pre-tribulationism but unfortunately he has read too many books that I am about to slaughter with the sword.  This is evidenced by virtue of his backing down at the last minute and confessing that what he is proselytizing is merely his opinion.  I get that a lot.  

According to Pre-tribs there are:

2 First Resurrections (The one mentioned in the Bible and their fairytale)
2 Second Comings (The one mentioned in the Bible and their fairytale secret rapture)
2 Raptures (The one mentioned in the Bible that they have coopted as being theirs and the one that is clearly post trib mentioned in Revelation 16:15 and other places even though they are one in the same event)
2 Days of the Lord (The one God is telling us about that is going to bring wrath and massive destruction in a final cataclysmic event and their fairytale secret rapture that makes what God is telling us about in the real day irrelevant to us because we won’t be here)
2 People(s) of God (The Church and Israel, totally separate at the end according to dispensational speak)
2 Elects of God - (We are the elect elect who don’t go through the tribulation unlike the elect of Matt 24)
2 sets of Saints (The Church is the “other” saints mentioned throughout the NT who do not go through the tribulation in Revelation)

1. Snake says we ignore Rev 19:14 where “God says we are in heaven”.  Where does God say that?  I am sorry but it simply says that the armies of heaven are following him [Christ] upon his return.  Stop quoting pre-trib propaganda and adding to the scripture.  This is a reference to those Christ will bring with him on his REAL return and actually since at the same time the rapture also takes place and those who are alive will join him in the air it means that those alive when he returns also are following him don’t you think?.  It never mentions that we are ALL in heaven via the rapture seven years earlier, so don’t say it.  Remember that little passage in 1 Thess 4:14 which YOU conveniently left out, “We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.  This also agrees with Zech 14: 5 where God says he will bring the Holy Ones with him.  Hey pre-tribs you can’t reconcile this Old Testament verse or the pre-trib rapture to when Daniel is resurrected which God clearly places at the end of the tribulation in Daniel 12:13 unless you say that Daniel alone is not resurrected at the time of the rapture and has no part of the wedding feast that you’ll be supposedly digging in heaven for seven years.   Since the Resurrection of Daniel would also likely be at the same time as other Old Testament saints, are you suggesting that none of the prophets, David, Joshua, Moses, and all those guys will be part of the first resurrection you’ll be participating in.  The most slovenly backslidden Christian gets resurrected before all the Old Testament Saints?  But, keep in mind this is not the first, but the first, first resurrection before the first one actually mentioned in the Bible.  You guys are in trouble and you add a little here, take a little there.  

2. Snake says, “Here in Revelation 4:1 we once again here the trump of God…this is the last time you can find the trump of God sounded in Revelation”.  Excuse me!  And I suppose those next seven trumpets sounded by the seven angels are not the trumpets of God but the Boston philharmonic?   There should have been trombones given to the angels.  Give me a break.  I have heard a great many outrageous lies by pre-tribs but his one is a new one I haven’t heard before.  But this has to take the cake.  Someone has been reading their Bible and discovered yet another inexplicable contradiction to reconcile.  The reason is you have to say this is because you can’t reconcile it with Cor. 15:52 where it says “the Last Trumpet” even though it doesn’t say the last trumpet of God there.  Again I give you pre-trib exegesis at its best.  Take a little bit here, add a little bit there, we will make it fit no matter what we don’t care.

I’ll pick the rest up tomorrow.  It’s late and I have had to deal with a little witch on another thread so I’m tuckered out.  

Kraken

Hi Krack,

Dunno why you are using so much energy & time to convince pretribbers that they are wrong ?

As much as 90% might fall away during the first years of the trib,
and the rest of them will quickly need to modify their eschatology.

Where's the big deal here ?

2B

kraken, you're kraken up! :D

 

 I don't believe you have any authority to tell me what I can or can not say here my friend. The Bible never says the rapture and the second coming happen at the same time either..."so don't say it"!

 So, you believe that the rapture and the second coming happen at the same time? ???

 Let me blow that one out of the water for ya...

 I've already offered good evidence which shows a rapture happening at Rev 4 I compared some details of rapture verses with similar details found in Rev 3 & 4.
 Are we in agreement that Revelation is in chronological order?

 So far, you haven't shown any corroborating evidence by matching the rapture verses details with verses that corroborate your beliefs.

 For the time being, we'll set that fact aside so we can examine other elements found in Revelation...

 Rev 4:4 And round about the throne [were] four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.  

 Here, in Rev 4:4 we see twenty four elders who are most likely twelve Old Testament saints, and twelve New Testament saints. Even if we can't agree on that, we can understand that these elders are humans... How can we do that?
 Look at what they are wearing...
clothed in white raiment We know these are humans by the following verse...

 Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

 This verse makes it a certainty that the twenty four elders are in fact humans in Heaven, before any wrath or tribulation even begins.

 There's more...

 "and they had on their heads crowns of gold. "

 This is very interesting indeed. How is it that these humans, who are in Heaven, have crowns of gold on their heads?
 They have been judged by Jesus and have received their rewards! This doesn't happen until after the rapture my friend! They have been washed clean, and they have crowns of gold on their heads. And all before any wrath or tribulation. This is a death roll to your theory my friend. How are you going to wriggle out of this one. There's no explaining it away.

But wait! it doesn't stop there...

  Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:  


 Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?  


 Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they [were], should be fulfilled.

 What's this? more humans in Heaven, and long before you say they should be there? These are not Old Testament saints my friend, they are identified with their brethren, who are still on earth, going through tribulation, because they missed the rapture, but were saved afterward. The point here is that those who died during the tribulation went to Heaven way before you claim they should be there.

 Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;  

 Wowee! This is most inconvenient! All these New Testament saints up there in Heaven. Don't they know they shouldn't be there? How do I know they are New Testament saints?

 Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?  


 Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.  

 Your theory that the second coming and the rapture happening at the same time just doesn't fit the scriptures my friend.
 
Pre Tribbers have always stated that the rapture occurs before wrath or tribulation. That there would be many, many people left behind who would realize their mistake, and accept Jesus during the tribulation. That many of these tribulation saints would be hunted down and murdered, and this is exactly what we find in the scriptures.

 kraken... Tell me, is everyone who doesn't believe in your theories a propagandist? :D
 We happen to disagree on this one, why do you have to be so annoying about it? Are you incapable of having a civil, intelligent debate without spewing off these childish, half witted insults?

 Do you honestly believe you are incapable of making a mistake? Do you believe you are perfect? Are you 100% correct all the time? Or just on this one?

 Evidence can be aligned to point in more than one direction my friend.
 I happen to believe the pre trib explanation best fits the totality of the facts. I feel the pre trib scenario accounts for the full body of evidence in the most optimal way. Am I 100% sure? Of course not...and if you're honest about it, you'll admit the same.

 So come on my friend, we're all on the same team here,... well, most of us are. So let's calm it down a notch and carry on in a civil, intelligent manner, like good Christians should.

Bronzesnake.

Did you pull that percentage out of a hat twobombs?  :D

Bronzesnake.

Why Do Some Teach that the Church will Endure the Tribulation?

From TRIUMPHANT RETURN
by Grant R. Jeffrey


Several incorrect premises have caused some to reject the pretribulation Rapture and accept the position called the "postribulation Rapture." The first premise is an emotional contention that it would be unfair for the modern Church to escape to heaven scot free to escape the martyrdom that other believers have experienced. While it is easy to understand such an emotion, it would be wrong to deny the doctrine of the pretribulation Rapture on this basis alone. The reality is that while many Christians have endured tremendous persecutions and tribulations, untold millions of believers have lived out their lives in times of peace. Furthermore, all of those Christians who died in either peace or persecution throughout history have already escaped the Great Tribulation.

An underlying attitude of many critics is their inorrect and unscriptural belief that the Church will somehow be purified by enduring the wrath of the Antichrist. However, the Scriptures declare that we are purified solely by the completed work of Christ on the Cross. If the Lord delays His return much longer, the rising tide of persecution of Christians affect the Church across the world. However, this will not constitute the Tribulation period which will be characterized by the wrath of God poured out from heaven on the unrepentant sinners during the final seven years of this age. Some critics have claimed that those who teach the hope of the pretribulation rapture are leaving Christians unprepared for the possibility of the coming persecution of the Tribulation period. However, in thirty-five years of teaching Bible prophecy, I have not witnessed pretribulation Rapture teachers instructing Christians that they are immune from end-time persecution. The prophecy teachers, myself included, who believe God promises that Christians will escape "wrath of God" in the Tribulation often warn believers that persecution is coming, even in North America, if the Lord tarries much longer. However, the postribulation Rapture position can rob the Church of her blessed hope. Jesus promised, "I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth" (Revelation 3:10).

The second and more important reason why some are teaching that the Church will be present during this terrible time is the failure to distinguish between God's plan for Israel and His plan for the Church, especially in the prophecy revealed by Christ in Matthew 24. They often acknowledge that there is strong biblical evidence for a pretribulation Rapture; however, they inevitably come back to their interpretation of Matthew 24, which seems to indicate that the Rapture follows the events of the Great Tribulation.

In the passage in Matthew 24, Christ is on the Temple Mount explaining to His Jewish disciples the events that will occur in Israel and in other nations that will lead to the return of Christ as their Jewish Messiah. The disciples' question that Jesus was answering concerned the coming of Israel's long-promised Kingdom, not the coming of Christ for His Church (which they did not even know about). It is easy to forget that, at this point, before the crucifixion of our Lord and the coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, there was no such thing as a Christian Church. If you had told one of the disciples during the week before Christ's crucifixion that someday there would be an organization based on Christ's teachings, called the Church, and that 99 percent of its members would be uncircumcised Gentiles who would follow neither Jewish law nor offer Temple sacrifices, he would probably have fallen off his chair in shock and disbelief. One of the classic mistakes in interpretation is to take this conversation between Christ and His Jewish disciples concerning the messianic kingdom and read back into it the reality of the Christian Church which did not come into existence until the Jews rejected Christ and God breathed life into His Body of believers.

Since Christ does not mention the Church to His disciples in this conversation, the plain interpretation is that Israel is the primary focus of the Prophecy of Matthew 24. Matthew 24 speaks of the Great Tribulation, and beginning at verse 15, Christ states that the Antichrist will set up the "abomination of desolation" (a supernatural statue of the Antichrist) to be worshiped in the Temple. In verses 40 and 41, Jesus says, "Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left." A vital question for students of the Bible is the identity of these people who "shall be taken." Does this prophecy refer to the Church or does it reveal God's plans for the Tribulation saint who become believers after the Rapture?

 To Continue On Next Post...

This chapter tells us that at the end of the Great Tribulation, God will send His angels and "they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other" (verse 31). These "elect" are the people who become believers during the Great Tribulation of three and one-half years. This gathering together is not the Rapture. This gathering of Tribulation believers takes place at the end of the Tribulation, whereas the Rapture of the Church occurs sometime prior to the beginning of the Great Tribulation when Antichrist sets himself up as "God" in the Temple. Notice that the angels "gather the elect" (verse 31), whereas, at the time of the Rapture, "The Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first" (1 Thessalonians 4:16--17). This gathering of the "elect" Tribulation saints will occur at the conclusion of three and one-half years --- a period of time for which there are the most detailed prophecies found in the Bible.

The Bible describes many Tribulation events that must occur prior to the "gathering" of the Tribulation saints and thus, it cannot be correctly described as "imminent." These facts have caused many scholars to believe that this "gathering" is, therefore, a different event than the "Rapture" of the Church. However, when we turn our attention to the coming of Christ for His Church, we find that there are no warnings or signals given to indicate the time of the Rapture. The Rapture can literally occur at any time.

The third reason postribulationist writers have attacked the pretribulation Rapture doctrine by claiming that it cannot be true because no Church writer or Reformer ever taught this doctrine until approximately 170 years ago until it was introduced by John Darby, a Plymouth Brethren. Their argument that no one ever saw this "truth" throughout eighteen hundred years of Church history has been very effective, causing many Christians to abandon their belief in the pretribulation Rapture. The only problem is that their assertion that no one in the early Church taught the pretribulation Rapture has been found to be incorrect.

Obviously the truth about the time of the Rapture can be found only in Scripture. The Protestant Reformation was based essentially on this return to the authority of the Bible. The Latin phrase sola Scriptura, meaning "Scripture alone" became the rallying cry of the Reformers who ignored centuries of tradition and church councils in their insistence that truth could only be discovered in the Word of God. While the resolution of this issue must be based on our interpretation of Scripture, it is important to answer the errors of our opponents, who disparage "the blessed hope" of the Rapture with misinformation about the modern rediscovery of the truth about the pretribulation Rapture.

A Discovery that the Pretribulation Rapture Was Taught in the Early Church

During the summer of 1994, after more than a decade of searching, I discovered several fascinating manuscripts that contain clear evidence of the teaching of the pre-tribulation rapture in the early church.

Ephraem's Teaching on the Pretribulation Rapture

For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins. (On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World, by Ephraem the Syrian, A.D. 373)

The early Christian writer and poet, Ephraem the Syrian, (A.D. 306 - 373) was a major theologian of the early Byzantine Eastern Church. He was born near Nisbis, in the Roman province of Syria, near present-day Edessa, Turkey. Ephraem's fascinating teaching on the Antichrist has never been published in English until I wrote FINAL WARNING in 1995. Some scholars suggested that this manuscript was written several centuries later (5th or 6th century) but definitely before the birth of Islam in 622. However William Bousset, one of the greatest scholars on ancient eschatology, concluded in his book The Antichrist Legend that it was written by Ephraem the Syrian before A.D. 373.1 Andrew R. Anderson wrote in his book Alexander's Gate that he accepted the early date as being valid.2

All right guys  >:(

ENOUGH OF THIS....
 My view is the only correct one, mine i tell ya mine Sheesh..... ;D


  The Scripture is written isn such a fashion it is always new and fresh! What a BOOK! There is not another book that can be so disscussed so ripped apart and rearanged. And yet it remains solid stedfast and true... Thank You Lord for Your  wonderfull Word...

a remnant is mathematically 1-10 percent, I give 1-10% slack.
A few posts back in this thread I gave information as to why/when/how.
Are you reading my posts, Bronze ?

Kraken

This is your post and that is fine.  You have caused people to argue over the pre-trib issue.  I am not really sure that you have told us what you believe, besides being against the pre-trib thought.  Why don't you post your beliefs down and let us show you how we think you are wrong ;)  If you are post trib we could easily slam your views as you are doing to us.

Back a million years ago in the 50's. We ( Mom Dad & us kids) just knew Jesus would come and get us before " The Great Tribulation!"  Then questions get asked.... Well why was Dan in the lions den? Noah was safe but in the flood some like to say he was above the flood ok, he was still in the rain. Shadrac Meshack and Abendgo were in the fire. The Israellites were in Egypt during the plagues. And  " The Great Tribulation" is not a scripture quote. I am not saying there is not tribulation or even great tribulation. Cause Jesus says great tribulation ....maybe my thoughts are clear ... hope so...

-----------------------------------------------------------
yes they are very clear.
I have no idea how things will happen exactly and neither does anyone else on this forum.  I do believe however that we WILL not suffer God's wrath.  However we avoid it is fine with me.  

Hi Reeb...

You always make more sense than any of us rambling stumblebums!

First of all I did not mean to suggest that you can’t say whatever you please.  It was merely a rhetorical statement in reference to the fact that I believe you are claiming things that are not scriptural.  The reason I annoy most pre-tribbers is because it has been my experience they don't like to debate with anyone who disagrees with them especially if that person is certain about what they believe.  Please don't take it as being arrogant and condescendingly retreat to uncertainty.  I'm just confident.  So if your confident, go for it.

I'm loving this!  I really appreciate it.  Your pretty good. Dead wrong, but your good!  I mean that sincerly.  You could beat the crap out of that weenie Tim LeHaye.   Now give me a chance to prove your wrong thats all.  You see I have had this pre-trib junk shoved down my throat all my life and I never get to debate them on it.  The ones I know are mindless minions to the cause, but you are different.  I mean that as a complement.  We could possibly approach a mistrial here.  But we'll see.

First of all Revelation 4 says absolutely nothing about the rapture.  Can we agree that's speculation on your part.  John is having the experience here not the whole Church.  I believe Revelation is mostly chronological, but it does back track on the destruction of Babylon and a few other things in later chapters.  I believe the bowls of wrath are also an adjunct part of the seventh trumpet and not completely separate from it.

You said “They have been judged by Jesus and have received their rewards!  This does not happen until after the rapture my friend.”  

So you are saying we are all judged after the rapture, even those who have died before?  Someone is telling you a lie.  The Bible clearly says that judgment takes place when you die.

First let’s blow away your white robe and 24 elders are the church theory.  You need a little lesson on the resurrection.  Dying and going to heaven is not the same as being resurrected.  Did you know if you croaked tonight, before the rapture, that you will go to heaven right away and you will be judged as to whether you are in the book and have received the crown of life, at least your soul does?  Wow, where is your theology coming from?  Yes indeed, there are Christians in heaven right now who have received a crown!  And that’s before Christ returns for the rapture.  Do you believe in purgatory or limbo or something?   We go to be with Christ when we die, but that does not mean we are resurrected or raptured, but it does mean we are judged immediately.

How is that 24 elders can represent the raptured Church in heaven but the multitudes in Rev 7 don’t?  They are humans also, who are also wearing white robes and yet they “come through the great tribulation”.  Even so the Elders are not necessarily raptured or resurrected at this point either just as the souls of those in Rev 6 were not yet resurrected and they were given white robes but told to wait a little while longer for those to be killed just as they had been.   These are the SOULS of saints, not resurrected humans!  As far as crowns go, let me see.  Lie I said, do you not believe that we are immediately judged as to our ultimate disposition when we die?  Those who are left will not receive a crown until Christ returns, but those who die before receive their crowns in heaven when they die. Phil 1:21-23, “For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.  If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far;” AND Hebrews 9:27. “Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,” AND Rev 14:13, “Then I heard a voice from heaven say, "Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on."   "Yes," says the Spirit, "they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them."” AND Paul alludes to the crown he will receive when he dies, Timothy 2:4-6, “For I am already being poured out like a drink offering and the time has come for my departure. I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day--and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.”  

Good greif its late,  I have to start earlier tomorrow.  I'll pick it up again later.

Bye

Snakums Maximus

You are in for it.  Let me pick it up where I left off.  

You said “Your theory of the rapture and the second coming happening at the same time does not fit the scripture.”

I am flabbergasted you can actually make that statement but let’s try it one more time.  

These are the words of Jesus in Rev 16:15, "Behold, I come like a thief! Blessed is he who stays awake and keeps his clothes with him, so that he may not go naked and be shamefully exposed."

What is being described here in the words of Jesus?  Let’s break it down, He comes and we go!  It’s the rapture!  Pre-tribs love to ignore this second coming like a thief, rapture verse because blows away all of their secret rapture theories they hang there hat on.  Low and behold the surprise rapture occurs at the moment of the battle of Armageddon just like it is further described in chapter 19, where you see those just raptured coming with the Lord to the scene of the battle.  Rev. Chapters 17 through 19 beautifully recaps what has already been said before in Rev, the destruction of Babylon and the very events leading up to the final battle and the return of Jesus Christ the King of Kings.  

Pre-trippers claim that the actual second coming will be so well known that they can count it down to the very day but they claim the rapture is secret (like a theif).  What they don't tell you is that all the thief verses point ONLY to a post trib rapture.  They believe the second coming is such a distinctly prophesied event that it would be impossible for it not to be known up to the very day.  I won’t mention any names.  Yes I will, Tim LeHaye and his wind bag pre-trib council and all the rest.  Then what the heck is this?  Well it seems like at least some folks get surprised and those people are Christians by reference to those who still go but go naked and shamefully exposed.

Is there further evidence of this?  I am glad you asked.  Let’s examine some more thief references.  

Matthew 24:42-44, “"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into.  So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.”

Let’s play a little game called Truth or Dispensationalist.  I love to include this verse because in the pre-tripper world they exclude the entire Olivet discourse from the church age column.  That would be all of Matt 24 and 25 which they claim is in reference to the Jews.  So here we go.  We have to ask, who is Christ talking to?  If you said the disciples [nucleus of the Church] you are correct.  If you said the clueless Jews milling around the temple miles away from the Mount of Olives and those who now live in present day Palestine who have not read this scripture you would be a dispensationalist.

Do you remember the verse in Revelation?  Who is Christ talking to?  Here is a hint.  Rev: 22:16, “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches.”

If you said the Church only in chapters 1-4 and for the remainder of the chapters 5-22 the clueless Jews milling around the temple and those living in present day Palestine and those gentiles who are “left behind” then you would be a dispensationalist.  If you said the Church then you are correct.

Let’s look at another one.  

1 Thess 5:1-4,  “Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.  While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.”  

If you believe that what this verse is saying is that the Day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night and yet be accompanied by His wrath and destruction and that Paul is talking to the Church then you would be correct.  If you believe that Paul is talking to the clueless Jews milling around the temple and those living in present day Palestine and those gentiles who are “left behind” then you would be a dispensationalist because obviously the day of the Lord that the Church is expecting is a secret rapture and this could not possibly be it because it is accompanied by wrath and destruction.  And if you believe that Paul says the real second coming is sort of like a thief, but it won’t be a day of destruction or anything like what the Bible actually says it will be and even though real second coming won't be a surprise and the rapture will be a surprise, even thought it says the church should not be surprised because after all we are pre-trib dispensationalist and this verse is contradicting our theory and frankly we wished you hadn’t brought it up…where is the nearest nipple, I need some baby milk?

Let’s look at another one

2 Peter 3:10-12, “But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare. Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming.  That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat.”

If you believe that what this verse is saying is that the Day of the Lord will come like a thief and yet be accompanied by His wrath and destruction and that Peter is talking to the Church then you would be correct.  If you believe that Peter is talking to the clueless Jews milling around the temple and those living in present day Palestine and those gentiles who are “left behind” then you would be a dispensationalist because obviously the day of the Lord that the Church is expecting is a secret rapture and this could not possibly be it because it is accompanied by wrath and destruction … where is that bottle?  

Oh the contradictions!

Let’s do one more for old time sake.  I love to hear pre-trib exegesis try to explain this one.  They get really twisted.

2 Thess 2:1-8 “Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshipped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.  Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things?  And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time.  For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.”

First of all if you believe Paul is telling the Church what to expect concerning the Day of the Lord then you would be correct.  If you believe that Paul has had a case of beer and does not mean what he is saying then you would be a dispensationalist.  Or, if you believe that what this verse is saying is that the day of the Lord “will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed…..” then you are correct.  If you believe that it says exactly the opposite of this then you are a dispensationalist because obviously the Day of the Lord that the Church is concerned with is a secret rapture that precedes the antichrist because obviously the antichrist does not come until the tribulation and will not be destroyed until the battle of Armageddon and that isn’t right because it contradicts us and besides…MILK!

I have more but I rest my case for now!  Unless you want to cross examine, then I’ll go a few more rounds.

The Kraken
sinker of pre-trib ships

Noooo, where's the fun of this ? Kraken, soon no pretrib will be left on this forum all died-out,
and just as with the war in Iraq I really want to see their replies and cries for help as they realise it's getting later then planned ?

/another shameless NWO commercial
To all pretribs: Kraken is telling you lies !!  don't believe him !!
/end of another shameless NWO commercial
[....]

You see kraken; pretribs believe all sorts of lies, the above will be eaten like candy,
as sucklings not only want milk, they are suckers  for candy too , just wait and see ! :)

link for pretribs: http://www.4verichip.com/verichipfuture.htm
Your real escape pod is here: http://www.endtimesnetwork.com/oldnews/aliya.html

And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

kraken...

 Let me ask you a couple of questions before I pick apart your extreemly weak "proof" for a rapture/second coming.

 1) God says we are not appointed for wrath. Do you agree?

 2) When do you believe God's wrath, in relation to the seven vails takes place?

Bronzesnake

The mount of Olives is about 700 yards from the temple mount.

Funny, i've been focussing in on John 6 lately. The verse you quoted is #35.
It is one of the, if not most, controversial preaching Jesus did when He was on earth.
Many disciples left Him after they heard this teaching, yet today it is so well accepted, alsmost 'automatic' if there is such a thing in the faith....

And I find myself and other fighting the same fight today, in Real Life (tm) but also online. Preaching to deaf ears showing stuff to blind men...  

The more I dig into John 6 I find that one day certain preaching we now hear today being
scoffed upon being lifted from it's benign, awkward position where it's in now.

Jhn 6:61   When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
[...]
Jhn 6:66   From that [time] many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

666 - The number of the beast. [one should pause to and decide if it's coincidence....]

Mat 24:10   And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

offended : skandalizo {skan-dal-id'-zo} ("scandalize")
1) to put a stumbling block or impediment in the way, upon which another may trip and fall, metaph. to offend
a) to entice to sin
b) to cause a person to begin to distrust and desert one whom he ought to trust and obey
1) to cause to fall away
2) to be offended in one, i.e. to see in another what I disapprove of and what hinders me from acknowledging his authority
3) to cause one to judge unfavourably or unjustly of another
c) since one who stumbles or whose foot gets entangled feels annoyed
1) to cause one displeasure at a thing
2) to make indignant
3) to be displeased, indignant

Zec 12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

It, again, will be Israel were people will find offence or a scandalous thing in....

Just scratching the surface of the scriptures here, and it's sooo obvious, so obvious ppl....

Just scratching the surface of the scriptures here, and it's sooo obvious, so obvious ppl....
============================================================================================What is so obvious?

Wow  I wonder what was in John mind as he wrote verse 6:66

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

In the day when Israel is surrounded by nations that want to do damage unto it, God will not suffer its destruction

Zec 14:12   And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Have a nice day,
2B

Bronzesnake

Another question is also, if Jesus said "ye shall have tribulation", will you not? And if "that's not what he meant", then why interpret "wrath" that way. But turns out you get what you asked for below anyway.

1. We are not appointed for wrath. This is God's Word. God's Word does not contradict itself, it just contradicts sin and untruths.

2. "When the trump shall sound, we which are alive and reamin shall be caught up in the air with him.."  (Paul) At Revelation 10, the angel prepares to sound the seventh trump.

In chapter 11, as a prelude to the 7th trumpet, it talks about the two witnesses who prophecy in Jerusalem and give the Antichrist some real problems, and goes right into their resurrection. It immediately goes to the seventh trumpet, and the kingdoms of the Earth have become our Lord's, those 24 elders worship, and look at verse 18a, "And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.".

Now look at verse 18 again. At the same time, "thy wrath is come", and the "servants the prophets" are getting their "reward". A parenthetical aside about the woman in Rev. 12, the Beast and the False Prophet and the Mark in Rev. 13, then 14 and 15 lead up to the Vials.

So after the 6 trumpets are done, there is a recap of some of the events of the tribulation.

The 2 witnesses are caught up, and like Jesus said (Matt. 24) "every eye shall see him", and they are likely raised up with the rest of us.

With us out of the way, the vials of the wrath of God are pured out for the few days left before the return at the end of the seven years, while we enjoy the marriage supper of the Lamb "upstairs", and return with him to execute the seventh vial at Armageddon.

Those chapters, with that well in mind, will never be the same to you.

Revelation is in chronological order.
 The problem a lot of us have is that there seems to be several verses that are not in sequence.

 This problem is easily cleared up when we realize that the events of Revelation are described from two different perspectives, and three viewpoints.

 This is purposefully done to show us what is happening in Heaven, and on earth at the same time as events unfold.

For example...

 The 6th chapter relates that the saints are persecuted and killed, but it is only in the 13th chapter that we find out how they are killed and by whom.

also, compare the following two events which are from different chapters in Revelation, but depict the same details....

Rev 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.  

Rev 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, [and] so great

 Here's a hypothetical example...

 You watch a hockey game on TV, and at the exact same time, your friend is watching it at the arena.
 You could both write down a pretty good description of the hi-lights of the game. However, there would be some slight difference because you both witnessed the same game from different perspectives.
 A person may read both accounts, and believe they were reading about two different games. However, if they read both descriptions carefully, they would come to a reasonable conclusion that these accounts were base on the same game.


Rev 4 - 11 is  from the viewpoint of Heaven. In these verses, the viewpoint is as one in Heaven looking down upon the earth and seeing things which happen as a result of the activities in Heaven.

 Rev 12 - 16 is from the viewpoint of earth. Now the viewpoint is as one on earth spontaneously witnessing the same events as were being seen from Heaven.

 
Rev 17 - 18 is satan's kingdom. In these verses the mystery of evil is revealed as well as it's final destination.

 When we realize this simple structure, we no longer have to, for example,  place the rapture in a "later" timeline because we believe it seems to occur in a later chapter in Revelation. What we are actually seeing is specific events being related from different viewpoints.

 Of course, we still must recognize that there are events which happen in a chronological order. However, some of these events are described more than once, from different perspectives. We can recognize them easily, as the above examples demonstrate.

Bronzesnake.

Kraken...


 First of all. If I need a lesson lesson on the resurrection, I won't come to you my friend!  ;)

2Cr 5:6 Therefore [we are] always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:  


 2Cr 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)  


 2Cr 5:8 We are confident, [I say], and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.  

 Of course I know that if I die tonight I'll be in spirit, with the Lord. However, I strongly dissagree with you that I'll be judged by the Lord at that time. There is an appointed time for the Judgement of both save and unsaved. Do you think that when a non believer dies he goes to Hell right away? If you do, you're dead wrong...again. ;)

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.

 satan and the beast were tossed into the lake of fire for the duration of the 1,000 year reign Rev 19:20  Rev 20 :2-3. However, the unsaved people who were killed by Jesus at His second coming were not sent to hell at that time. They were dead, but not in hell...where do you think they went? Let's see...they're not alive. They're not in Heaven. They're not in Hell....hmmm...
Do you believe in purgatory or limbo or something?

 The unsaved dead are not judged and do not go to Hell until after His second coming.
 As you will notice, they are all judged together, after the 1,000 year reign not one at a time as they die.

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,  


 Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom [is] as the sand of the sea.  


 Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.  


 Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.  


 Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.  


 Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.  


 Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.  


 Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.  


 Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.  

 Nowhere in the scriptures does God tells us that we are judged one at a time at the moment of our death.

 The only place in scriptures where we can see a judgement after His second coming, we can clearly see that the unbelievers are judged all together at the same time.

Bronzesnake.

Snake,

First of all you have not addressed a single point I have made, other than to argue that the book of Revelation is Chronological except when it isn’t necessary to see it that way.  Note: Apparently, that is only when it destroys the concept of a pre-tribulation rapture because only then it isn’t because you have to pretend it is a different perspective such as from heaven as opposed to earth.  That is a load of pre-trib crap just like your Rev 4 rapture and 24 elders = the church in heaven claim.  With that kind of interpretive skill you could pretty much make the Bible say whatever you want.  You have no clue and no evidence to support your claim.  Unless I lost my Bible decoder manual it doesn’t say anywhere in the instructions that the objective to Biblical interpretation is to make it fit the pre-trib view no matter what.

Snake said “God says we are not appointed to suffer wrath. Do you agree?”

Of course I agree.  However, tribulation for the saints does not equal wrath for the last time.  Do you not agree that there will be believers on earth that will suffer tribulation at the same time the trumpet judgments take place? Who are those believers if they are not likewise beneficiaries of the promises of God?  This is at the same time when wrath is being poured out upon the earth for the sake of unbelievers.  Do you not believe that the early Church suffered tribulation?   Their bodies were used as torches and they lined the roads leading into to Rome.  They were torn to pieces in the coliseum.  They were thrown in prison, persecuted and tortured, yet in their afflictions they rejoiced because they believed it was an honor to suffer for the name of Christ.  But then who is going to be suffering wrath?   Those who are doing these things to the believers will suffer God’s wrath and God’s wrath is not indiscriminate nor is it directed upon the saints.  

If you lose your job and your property is stolen, your 401(k) becomes worthless and somebody persecutes you and calls you names for carrying your Bible, you might call that wrath.  That isn’t wrath, that’s just the minor tribulation of what being a Christian will be like in the days to come.  However, eventually you may be put to death for the name of Christ.  You may be thrown in prison, killed, beheaded or tortured much like the early Christians and so many since then.  What are you afraid of?  What is the worst thing that could happen to your body for the sake of Christ?  That body you have is a worthless stinking piece of flesh anyway.  It is going to die even if you live.  Do you think if your flesh suffers in any way for the sake of Christ that is wrath? Give me a break.  Trust me, even if you attempt to save your stinking flesh you will lose it anyway and not one part of it will inherit the kingdom of God in any case.  I am saying this because it equally applies to each of us.  Our bodies are sinful flesh that will either die and be resurrected anew or they will be changed in a flash, in the blink of an eye at the moment Christ returns.

We are simply arguing over the timing and yes there is much that we can dispute about on the matter of how to interpret the Revelation of Jesus Christ.  But there is a reason why pre-tribs do not include many of the verses of scripture in their exegesis that I have related to you.  They simply leave them out because it doesn’t fit their point of view.  You want to talk about different perspectives and all of that to explain it away.  You are destroying the whole concept that Revelation is describing chronological events.  You can’t even argue that the rapture that takes place in Rev. 16:15 is a chronological event instead you say it is the pre-trib rapture from a different perspective or whatever. That’s hogwash.  It talks about the battle of Armageddon taking place at the same time.

I challenge you to try for just once to forsake all of your man made interpretations and let the Word of God speak to you.  Forget everything I have said and everything any man has told you.  You love to quote what other people think, what other people say and what other people write about, but forget all of that.  Read the Bible and let God speak to you. I was a more ardent defender of what you believe than you are at one time.  I read every book I could get my hands on, I listened to every tape and message and so on, and then one day God spoke to me.  I may not be going about this the correct way but it is my calling to destroy this pernicious doctrine of a pre-tribulation rapture.  IT IS NOT OUR BLEESED HOPE to be rescued from impending tribulation based on the alleged Philadelphia exception.  On the contrary, it will be a blessing to be here to the bitter end if that is God’s will.  It will be a blessing to see Israel saved and come to Christ.  I can guarantee you that if you remove the dispensational blinders you will see things in a different light that will bring a new understanding to God’s Word, both Old and New Testament.  It is my opinion that dispensational pre-tribulationism is the worst of all lies that is corrupting the evangelical Church.  It is a doctrine of utter complacency and defeatism for the Church.  

I would love to hear your specific interpretation of Rev 16:14-17 in the full context of the verses that accompany it concerning the final battle and especially the “it is done” quote from 16:17.  You also have failed to address the fact that the only second coming passages mentioned in scriptures that are “a surprise second coming” are those that are clearly post-tribulational.  Indeed all of the second coming verses are either post trib as to their explicit timing or neutral in the since that only out of context one can perhaps imply some other timing.    

You have completely ignored the points I made concerning the resurrection of the saints, and the fact the Jesus said that he will resurrect those who believe on the last day.  You can’t possibly explain the timing of Old Testament saints in the rapture nor specifically the prophet Daniel who is told that he will not arise until after the end of days.  You have not disputed one thing I have said from scripture.  I am aware of so much more propaganda that you could come up with, being ever so familiar with your point of view.  Let’s try the seven year day, while at the same time claiming to be the ONLY VIEW that takes the scriptures literally (except where it doesn’t agree with the pre-trib view).   I have read that crap so many it makes me laugh.
 
Ebia, thank you for your contribution.  Nonetheless even at seven hundred yards away Jesus was still not talking to those standing around the temple.  Point made!

Bronze: please, when you use the book of Revelation please also point out it's sister scripture in the OT.

I'm getting sick and tired of people quoting from Revelation out of thin air;
it's theologically not correct, and scripturewise it just looks plain dumb.

I know you're intelligent; please use the OT as a mirror to prove your point.

Kraken.

 Man, you are one angry Christian!  :D

 I will address your questions as soon as you answer mine.

When do you believe God's wrath, in relation to the seven vails takes place?

kraken quote...




 Good, so you understand Christians are not appointed to wrath in relation to revelation. Now please tell me when you believe God's wrath takes place. If you believe the rapture takes place at His second coming, and we are not appointed to wrath, then that leaves less than a day, at best, for the sevn vials to be poured out. This does not line up with the scriptures my angry friend.

 

 Ya, in your opinion. The word tribulation is used in many scriptures as an example of the persecution Christians will, and have endured. When the word tribulation is used in relation to revelation, we understand that this is a momentous occasion, a time of such persecution as has never been witnessed in the history of the world, do I need to post the verses, or will you be honest and concede they are there.
 There are also several verses which speak of "antichrist" in the bible, however, when we take the word in relation to revelation, we understand the word to be associated specifically with satan. We don't need to confuse ourselves once we understand the context with which specific words are being used.

 Tribulation is God's wrath in action, in relation to revelation.



   

 There will be many left behind, who become saved after the rapture. So, yes, there willbe believers on earth during the tribulation.




 You seem to be somewhat ignorant of the meaning of the word tribulation.

 Tribulation- Great affliction, trial, or distress; suffering:

 The word tribulation, is a description of the effect of God's wrath during the final seven years. The words tribulation and wrath can not be separated as though they were seperate events. In revelation, God's wrath causes tribulation.


 I issue the same challenge to you my friend.

     

 Your propensity for being mistaken is only outmatched by your tenancy towards arrogance my friend.

 

 When did I say His second coming would be a "surprise second coming"?  We know His second coming will not be a surprise, because the scriptures tell us He will return exactly seven years after satan signs the false peace deal.

 Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed [is] he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.  

 If you read the proceeding verses, you can understand that Jesus is warning those left behind that there will be unclean spirits spewed from the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. They will trick men with false miracles in order to get them to join the unholy alliance and fight against Jesus and His saints, who, by the way, are depicted in Rev 19:14 following Jesus from Heaven to earth. The warning applies to the unbelievers at that time, not the saved, as you will see in the bold text from Rev 16:15

 Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed [is] he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.  

Now please, answer the question kraken, otherwise I am through with you.

Bronzesnake.

 Are you unable to understand Revelation as it stands t.b.?

 Tell you what, why don't you  use the book of Revelation and point out it's sister scripture in the OT to prove pre-trib wrong, and I will give a rebuttal.

Bronzesnake

Rev 1:1
1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
KJV

Gen 41:32

32 And for that the dream was doubled unto Pharaoh twice; it is because the thing is established by God, and God will shortly bring it to pass.
KJV

3 John 14

14 But I trust I shall shortly see thee, and we shall speak face to face. Peace be to thee. Our friends salute thee. Greet the friends by name.


KJV

Rev 1:3

3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
KJV

Gen 27:41

41 And Esau hated Jacob because of the blessing wherewith his father blessed him: and Esau said in his heart, The days of mourning for my father are at hand; then will I slay my brother Jacob.
KJV

John 2:13

13 And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem,
KJV

infotech...


So far, so good.


Yes, that warning is to the Jews who will not be raptured because they reject Jesus.



 Notice the term "great tribulation" is used. This makes a clear destinction from tribulation. It doesn't mean tribulation begins after satan is physically tossed down to earth, it means that things get seriously worse at that point. The begining of the final seven years, is the begining of tribulation. Once satan arrives, tribulation becomes "great tribulation" because it really heats up at that point.

Have a close look at this next verse...

  2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;  

 There is a falling away before satan reveals himself. I believe this "falling away" describes the departure of the Holy Spirit through His saints being raptured out of the earth.

 I will paste an article on this (falling away) in my next post...

The following is taken from a post by 2nd Timothy

Rapture in 2 Thessalonians 2 “falling away”  
I’ve always suspected it, but have never pursued it. There was always in my thoughts, when I read 2 Thessalonians 2: 2-3, that the term “falling away” means more than the prophetic warning of a general departure from the faith. After all, the people of God have gone through many widespread episodes of departing from a firm stance for God’s Word and ways throughout the centuries since the establishment of the Church of Jesus Christ.

Much of the time following the first few centuries of Christianity, the church was immersed in mysticism –even occultic activities. The “Dark Ages” was a time when few Christians truly stood up for the Light found in Christ. Those who did so were often made martyrs by the most cruel methods available to the inquisitors and others. It is unlikely that a future departure from true Christian faith could far exceed some of those departures of the past. So, the prophetic alert Paul gives in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 seems to indicate not a departure from the faith, but a departure of a much more dramatic sort.

Upon close examination of a Pre-Trib newsletter I received from Dr. Tim LaHaye and Dr. Thomas Ice, the things that had been blurred for me in the 2 Thessalonians 2: 2-3 prophecy started to focus in my mind and spirit. Dr. Ice’s article on the subject gave insights that I consider Holy Spirit-inspired. The things Dr. Ice proposes, if they are the way God meant them to be interpreted, are profound, indeed!

The Scripture we will look at is 2 Thessalonians 2: 3, but we will include verses 1 and 2 leading up to the point on which we will concentrate.

“Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition” (2 Thes. 2:1-3).

Dr. Ice proposes that the “falling away” in verse 3 doesn’t mean a departure from the basic Bible doctrines. It means, instead, that the Rapture of the Church will take place. His prayerfully studied premise revolves around the word apostasia, the Greek verb translated to the KJV as the “falling away.” This verb form, in this Scripture, has most often been interpreted to mean the apostasy (inferred generally to mean a gross departure from true Christian faith) that will develop in the end time, before the “day of Christ” comes. The “day of Christ" is the time when Jesus Christ again directly intervenes –that is, directly interacts with mankind in divine judgment.

The Thessalonians were troubled about whether the things Paul addressed in his earlier epistle to them had already taken place. That is, the harpazo--the Greek verb for “caught up” of 1 Thessalonians 4:16. They were worried that they had missed it, and the apostle wanted to set their minds at ease. At the same time, Almighty God obviously wanted this great prophecy given to future generations of Christians.

Dr. Ice goes into considerable detail in putting forward biblical and historical documentation for his and Dr. LaHaye’s conclusions about what they believe is a Rapture reference, rather than a reference to a departure from the fundamentals of the faith in 2 Thessalonians 2:3.

I am grateful to Dr. Ice for allowing me to use his article in addressing this topic, so crucial to the Pre-Trib Rapture viewpoint.

It’s an unusually lengthy "Nearing Midnight Update," but one I thought you, our family and friends will find interesting. Read, and prayerfully consider for yourself, this important passage, and Tommy’s take on the matter. Let the Holy Spirit speak to you, and confirm truth to your own spirit about what is meant here.  

The Meaning of Apostasia

The Greek noun apostasia is used only twice in the New Testament. In addition to 2 Thessalonians 2:3, it occurs in Acts 21:21 where, speaking of Paul, it is said, "that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake (apostasia) Moses." The word is a Greek compound of apo "from" and istemi "stand." Thus, it has the core meaning of "away from" or "departure." The Liddell and Scott Greek Lexicon defines apostasia first as "defection, revolt"; then secondly as "departure, disappearance" (Henry George Liddell and Henry Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, Revised with a Supplement [1968] by Sir Henry Stuart Jones and Roderick McKenzie [Oxford, Eng.: Oxford university Press, 1940], p. 218). Gordon Lewis explains how the verb from which the noun apostasia is derived supports the basic meaning of departure in the following:  

"The verb may mean to remove spatially. There is little reason then to deny that the noun can mean such a spatial removal or departure. Since the noun is used only one other time in the New Testament of apostasy from Moses (Acts 21:21), we can hardly conclude that its Biblical meaning is necessarily determined. The verb is used fifteen times in the New Testament. Of these fifteen, only three have anything to do with a departure from the faith (Luke 8:13; 1 Tim. 4: 1; Heb 3:12). The word is used for departing from iniquity (2 Tim. 2:19), from ungodly men (I Tim. 6:5), from the temple (Luke 2:27), from the body (2 Cor. 12:8), and from persons (Acts 12: 10; Luke 4:13)" (Gordon R. Lewis, "Biblical Evidence for Pretribulationism," Bibliotheca Sacra [vol. 125, no. 499; July 1968], p. 218).  

"It is with all assurance of proper exegetical study and with complete confidence in the original languages," concludes Daniel Davey, ‘that the word meaning of apostasia is defined as departure" (Daniel K. Davey, "The 'Apostesia' of II Thessalonians 2:3," Th.M. thesis, Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary, May 1982, p. 27). Paul Lee Tan adds the following:  

‘What precisely does Paul mean when he says that 'the falling away' (2:3) must come before the tribulation? The definite article 'the' denotes that this will be a definite event, an event distinct from the appearance of  the Man of Sin. The Greek word for 'falling away,' taken by itself, does not mean religious apostasy or  defection. Neither does the word mean 'to fall,' as the Greeks have another word for that. [pipto, I fall; TDI] The best translation of the word is "to depart." The apostle Paul refers here to a definite event which he calls 'the departure,' and which will occur just before the start of the tribulation. This is the rapture of the church" (Paul Lee Tan, The Interpretation of Prophecy [Winona Lake, IN: Assurance Publishers, 1974], p. 341).  So the word has the core meaning of departure and it depends upon the context to determine whether it is used to mean physical departure or an abstract departure such as departure from the faith.  

Translation History The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either "departure" or "departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) (H. Wayne House, "Apostasia in 2 Thessalonians 2:3: Apostasy or Rapture?" in Thomas Ice and Timothy Demy, eds., When the Trumpet Sounds: Today's Foremost Authorities Speak Out on End-Time Controversies [Eugene, OR: Harvest House, 1995], p. 270).    

This supports the notion that the word truly means "departure." In fact, Jerome's Latin translation, known as the Vulgate from around the time of A.D. 400, renders apostasia with the word discessio, meaning "departure" (House, "Apostesia," p. 270).  

CONTINUED...

Apostasia part II

Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure"?  

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer, was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as "falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as "departure." No good reason was ever given.  

  The Use of the Article    

It is important to note that Paul uses a definite article with the noun apostasia. What does this mean? Davey notes the following: "Since the Greek language does not need an article to make the noun definite, it becomes clear that with the usage of the article reference is being made to something in particular. In 2 Thessalonians 2:3 the word apostasia is prefaced by the definite article which means that Paul is pointing to a particular type of departure  

clearly known to the Thessalonian church" (Davey, Apostesia," p. 47). Dr. Lewis provides a likely answer when he notes that the definite article serves to make a word distinct and draw attention to it. In this instance he believes that its purpose is "to denote a previous reference." "The departure previously referred to was 'our being gathered to him’ (v.1) and our being 'caught up' with the Lord and the raptured dead in the clouds (I Thess. 4:17),’ notes Dr. Lewis (Gordon R. Lewis & Bruce A. Demarest, Integrative Theology 3 vols. in 1 [Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1996], vol. 3, p. 420).  The  "departure" was something that Paul and his readers clearly had a mutual understanding about. Paul says in verse 5, "Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?"    

The use of the definite article would also support the notion that Paul spoke of a clear, discernable event. A physical departure, like the rapture, would fit just such a notion. However, the New Testament teaches that apostasy had already arrived in the first century (cf. Acts 20:27-32; 1 Tim. 4:1-5; 2 Tim. 3:1-9; 2 Pet. 2:1-3; Jude 3-4, 17-21), and thus such a process would not denote a clear event as demanded by the language of this passage. Understanding departure as the rapture would satisfy the nuance of this text. E. Schuyler English explains as follows:  

"Again, how would the Thessalonians, or Christians in any century since, be qualified to recognize the apostasy when it should come, assuming, simply for the sake of this inquiry, that the Church might be on earth when it does come? There has been apostasy from God, rebellion against Him, since time began" (E. Schuyler English, Re-Thinking the Rapture ( Neptune, NJ: Loiseaux Brothers, 1954), p. 70.  

Whatever Paul is referring to in his reference to "the departure," was something that both the Thessalonian believers and he had discussed in-depth previously. When we examine Paul's first letter to the Thessalonians, he never mentions the doctrine of apostasy; however, virtually every chapter in that epistle speaks of the rapture (cf. 1:9-10; 2:19; probably 3:13; 4:13-17; 5:1-11). In these passages, Paul has used a variety of Greek terms to describe the rapture. It  should not be surprising that he uses another term to reference the rapture in 2 Thessalonians 2:3. Dr. House tells us:  

"Remember, the Thessalonians had been led astray by the false teaching (2:2-3) that the Day of the Lord had already come. This was confusing because Paul offered great hope, in the first letter, of a departure to be with Christ and a rescue from God's wrath. Now a letter purporting to be from Paul seems to say that they would first have to go through the Day of the Lord. Paul then clarified his prior teaching by emphasizing that they had no need to worry. They could again be comforted because the departure he had discussed in his first letter, and in his teaching while with them, was still the truth. The departure of Christians to be with Christ, and the subsequent revelation of the lawless one, Paul argues, is proof that the Day of the Lord had not begun as they had thought. This understanding of apostasia makes much more sense than the view that they are to be comforted (v. 2) because a defection from the faith must precede the Day of the Lord. The entire second chapter (as well as I Thessalonians 4:18; 5:11) serves to comfort (see w. 2, 3, 17), supplied by a reassurance of Christ's coming as taught in his first letter " (House, "Apostesia," pp. 275-76).  

Departure and The Restrainer

Since pretribulationists believe that the restrainer mentioned in verses 6 and 7 is the Holy Spirit and teaches a pretrib rapture, then it should not be surprising to see that there is a similar progression of thought in the progression of verse 3. Allan MacRae, president of Faith Theological Seminary, in a letter to Schuyler English has said the following concerning this matter:  

"I wonder if you have noticed the striking parallel between this verse and verses, 7-8, a little further down. According to your suggestion verse 3 mentions the departure of the church as coming first, and then tells of the revealing of the man of sin. In verses 7 and 8 we find the identical sequence. Verse 7 tells of the removal of the Church; verse 8 says: 'And then shall that Wicked be revealed.' Thus close examination of the passage shows an inner unity and coherence, if we take the word apostasia in its general sense of 'departure,' while a superficial examination would easily lead to an erroneous interpretation as 'falling away' because of the proximity of the mention of the man of sin" (Allan A. MacRae, Letter to E. Schuyler English, published in "Let the Prophets Speak," Our Hope, [vol. LVI, num 12; June 1950], p. 725).  

Kenneth Wuest, a Greek scholar from Moody Bible Institute, added the following contextual support to taking apostasia as a physical departure:  

"But then hee apostasia of which Paul is speaking, precedes the revelation of Antichrist in his true identity, and is to katechon that which holds back his revelation (2:6). The hee apostasia, therefore, cannot be either a general apostasy in Christendom which does precede the coming of Antichrist, nor can it be the particular apostasy which is the result of his activities in making himself the alone object of worship. Furthermore, that which holds back his revelation (vs, 3) is vitally connected with hoo katechoon (vs. 7), He who holds back the same event. The latter is, in my opinion, the Holy Spirit and His activities in the Church. All of which means that I am driven to the inescapable conclusion that the hee apostasia (vs. 3) refers to the Rapture of the Church which precedes the Day of the Lord, and holds back the revelation of the Man of Sin who ushers in the world-aspect of that period" (Kenneth S. Wuest, Letter to E. Schuyler English, published in "Let the Prophets Speak," Our Hope, [vol. LVI, num 12; June 1950], p. 731).  

Conclusion  

The fact that apostasia most likely has the meaning of physical departure is a clear support for pretribulationism. If this is true (Dr. Tim LaHaye and I believe that it is), then it means that a clear prophetic sequence is laid out by Paul early in his Apostolic' ministry. Paul teaches in 2 Thessalonians 2 that the rapture will occur first, before the Day of the Lord commences. It is not until after the beginning of the Day of the Lord that the Antichrist is released, resulting in the events described by him in chapter 2 of 2 Thessalonians. This is the only interpretation that provides hope for a discomforted people.”

  Dr. Thomas Ice’s article and its sources are found in Pre-Trib Perspective March, 2004, Vol. 8, No. 11: “Is the Rapture in 2 Thessalonians 2:3?
--Terry

This isn't about being wrong or right in discussion.
This is about being theologically correct, and use
TWO witnesses to make a point !

Mat 18:16 But if he will not hear [thee, then] take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

2Cr 13:1 This [is] the third [time] I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

Revelation is John is one witness !
Another scripture confirming John = 2nd Witness !

Very important. As long as you use only Rev. Even though
you might be making a righteous case, your case can be
thown down at almost *any* time because you do not
have TWO witnesses describing the SAME thing.

FYI,

Excerpt from http://www.nicoc.org/articles/apostasia.pdf:

Meaning is determined by usage, or semantically, regardless of whether or not it agrees with the supposed root meanings of its component parts. One cannot progress from form to meaning yet this is precisely what Dr. Ice has done. You will recall he said, "The word is a Greek compound of apo 'from' and istemi 'stand' Thus, it has the core meaning of 'away from' or 'departure'" His conclusion is based solely on etymology which, as hopefully the reader can see by now, is not even a safe guideline.

If Dr. Ice's proposition were true, we should be able to apply this etymological formula to any word. For example, the word "butterfly" is an English compound of 'butter' and 'fly.' Thus, 'butterfly' has a core meaning of "airborne milk fat." As one can readily see, this is patently false. How does one determine the core meaning of "butterfly" if not by etymology? Usage not form! How does one determine the core meaning of apostasia? Usage not form! Dr. Ice did not apply this simple rule when defining apostasia. The real core meaning, or dominant meaning, of apostasia contradicts his view. His position demands that apostasia mean physical departure from planet earth. However, this meaning cannot be squeezed out of apostasia in any context; much less th root level.

 That argument falls flat on it's face, as the example of the word "butterfly" has no context from which to form any meaningful opinion as to it's meaning.

I suppose we can start using apostasia to describe people leaving the church after the service... After all its not the actual meaning of the word that matters, only the sum of its derived parts...

"The church service ran alittle long, and many people started to get hungery, so after the apostacy we all went out to dinner."

 When you say service, you must mean the armed forces right? Oh, wait a minute, you meant a silver tea service, of course!

 I suppose we can never use any words in more than one context either. There are many words which have more than one meaning in any dictionary, I guess we'll have to have a vote as to which single meaning we will use for each of those words.

 We can understand any words meaning given the context from which the word is used.


Bronzesnake

twobombs...


At least I am making a case. As I have said, make your case with whatever references you like, then I'll offer a rebuttal.

 FYI! :D

It got quiet here all of a sudden. I wonder if it had to do with a certain question such as... "When do you believe God's wrath, in relation to the seven vails takes place"? hmmmm.

Bronzesnake.

eddielee...

Wrestle with these verses, and then let me know if it is possible that this "apostasia" just might be relating to the "falling away" in relation with the rapture.


2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.  


2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.  

2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:  

Now be honest my friend.

The Restrainer

Before the Antichrist CAN EVEN BE REVEALED Paul said, "that which is Restraining Him" must be taken out of the way. 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7. The only thing that fits this description is 'the Holy Spirit indwelling the Church.'

The Unique And Hindering Presence

"There is an indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit which has been upon the earth since Pentecost. Old Testament saints had the Holy Spirit with them and as an anointing upon them. That presence, however, could be taken away. The Holy Spirit did not indwell believers prior to Pentecost as an abiding presence that would never leave them. This indwelling is unique to the church, a fact that is clear from many Scriptures. This new presence, which was unknown before Pentecost, can only be removed by removing the church - those in whom the Holy Spirit dwells.
David prayed, "Take not the Holy Spirit form me" (Psalm 51:11), a prayer that would be meaningless today and would reflect inexcusable unbelief. Christ said to His disciples, referring to the Holy Spirit, "He dwelleth with you, and shall be in you (John 14:17). John tells us that when Christ was still here upon earth, "the Holy Ghost was not yet given, because ... Jesus was not yet glorified, He sent the Holy Spirit "from the father" (John 15:26) to be with His church in a new way that had been unknown up to that time.

It is this unique presence of the Holy Spirit in the church which will be removed at the rapture, allowing the Antichrist to be revealed and to have free rein to rule the world. Of course, the Holy Spirit, being omnipresent, will remain here to convict sinners of the truth of the gospel and to win multitudes to Christ during the tribulation period. These are the tribulation saints who will be martyred for their faith." (Dave Hunt, from "In Defense of the Faith" pg's 258-259)

 
Bronzesnake.

With the Post Trib view countless problems arise...

"Posties" would know the exact day of Jesus' Return, because in Daniel we read...

Daniel 12:11 "And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. "  

In the above verse we see that from the Abomination of Desolation, which occurs at the half way mark of the Tribulation  Daniel 9:27 there will be 1290 days left until the Second Coming. That cannot be reconciled with verses such as "No man knows the day nor the hour..."  This would make all the passages in God's Word speaking of the need for 'keeping watch' and 'being alert' a non issue. This would also leave them with absolutely no need, hope or expectation to look for Jesus Christ to come anytime prior to the completion of the Tribulation. That's Bleak!

The bottom line is that with both the mid trib and the post trib view (as well as prewrath etc.) they would look for the Antichrist to show up before Jesus Christ. We are to be looking for Jesus Christ!

These views destroy imminency. Scripture clearly teaches it.
This alone is ample reason to believe pre trib. But there's more...

Mark 13:35-37 "Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping. And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch."  

Matthew 24:44 "Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh."  

Bronzesnake

Revelation 4:1 Starts off with these words...

Revelation 4:1 "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. "

In the verse above John is taken from the Island of Patmos up to Heaven. Many believe this is an allusion to the Rapture.

Now look at what Jesus promised the church of Philadelphia...

Revelation 3:8 & 10 "...behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. ... Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.  

Isaiah 26:20-21 "Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain."  

Psalm 27:5 "For in the time of trouble he shall hide me in his pavilion: in the secret of his tabernacle shall he hide me; he shall set me up upon a rock."  

Zephaniah 2:3 "Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD'S anger. "  

Bronzesnake

The time of Jacob's trouble - Daniel's 70th Week ...

Jeremiah 30:7 "Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it."

In a number of places, the Bible refers to the Tribulation as a time of trouble for the Jews. The phrase "Jacob's Trouble" pertains to the descendants of Jacob. In the above verse it says that this time of trouble will come just before the Lord returns to save His people.

The Tribulation is the 70th week of a prophecy given to Daniel, I think we agree on this.

70 weeks = The "week/weeks" mentioned in this prophecy are "weeks of years"
These are Sabbatical years ... The Sabbath for the land was ordained in:
Leviticus 25:1-22, 26:33-35 ... Deuteronomy 15 ...

It was the failure to keep the Sabbath of the land that was the basis of the 70 years of Captivity.

Seventy Sevens - as we see in Daniel's prophecy: Daniel 9:24-27 imply these same weeks of years. (Another example of this appears in; Genesis 29:27)

In this passage in Daniel 9:24-27 we see...
70 Weeks were decreed for his people ... (Daniel's people = Jewish people)
...and for the Holy City (Jerusalem)
...to finish transgression
...to make an end to sin
...to make atonement for iniquity
...to bring in everlasting righteousness
...to seal up vision and prophecy
...and to anoint the most holy place

 The Scripture's never say that the Tribulation is meant to be a time of testing for Christians. However, some post-tribers try to claim they are the ones being tested during the Tribulation.

The Church was not here for Daniel's first 69 weeks ...
The focus of the entire prophecy was Israel. Daniel 9:24
The Church is the mysterious interval between the 69th and 70th week. Daniel 9:26

Bronzesnake.

I am really surprised at how post-tribers don't realize there are distinct differences in God's Word between the description of the Rapture and that of the Second Coming of Christ. These are two totally different events. Here are just some of the obvious differences:

The Rapture...

-Seen Only by Believers ... 1 Corinthians 15:52

-It's a Mystery revealed by Paul in the New Testament ...  1Corinthians 15:51-53

-In a Twinkling of an Eye ... 1 Corinthians 15:51-53
-We are Going "up" - Meeting Jesus in the Air ... 1 Thes 4:15-18

-A Thief in the Night.... 1Thessalonians 5:2

-Christ Comes for His Own ... 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

-Believers taken to Father's House ... John 14:3

-No reference to Satan ...

-Earth not judged ...

The Second Coming ...

-Every Eye Will See Him ... Revelation 1:7 19:11-16 and Matthew 24:30

-Not a Mystery - Foretold in Old Testament ... Daniel 12:1-3 and Zech. 12:10; 14:4

-He will be Coming "down" to the Mount of Olives ... Zechariah 14

-He Comes With His Own ... Revelation 19:14

-Satan bound ... Revelation 20:1-3[/u

-Earth judged ... Revelation 20:4-5


 Revelation 19:14 speaking of the Second Coming reads...
 "And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses,
clothed in fine linen, white and clean."

 At the Second Coming, He is not coming alone.
Rather those who had been raptured earlier are coming back with Him!

 In Jude 1:14 ... Enoch also, prophesied about this saying...
 
 "...Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints."
Interesting that Enoch was also Raptured! (Genesis 5:24)

 In a post-trib rapture scenario, we would rise in the air meet the Lord, then turn do a 180 back down to earth ... Zech. 14:4 tells us His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives.
 If He is already headed our way ... why would we need to be caught up to meet Him?
Are we Going Up or Coming Down?

Bronzesnake

2 Thes 2:
6And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming

If this is talking about the Holy Spirit as the restrainer, then when/how is the Holy Spirit revealed in his time?

Assumptions about this passage:

a.) That restraining the lawless one is equavalent to restraining lawlessness/evil/sin.
b.) That the Holy Spirit restrains sin in unbelievers. (meaning that the Holy Spirit restrains free will.)

Now, if this passage is speaking of the Holy Spirit, what proof is there to correlate the rapture of the saints with his ceased restraint upon the man of lawlessness?


Here the author admits that the Holy Spirit would still be on the earth no matter what; so how can we draw the conclusion that the Holy Spirit must be partially withdrawn in the rapture to end his restraint?

Can not the Spirit decide to stop restraining the man of lawlessness without rapturing the saints? Is this impossible for God?

The point of this is is that there is no evidence that
 a.) IF the restrainer is the Holy Spirit
    b.) He MUST rapture the saints to stop restraining the lawless one.

Now, the assumption is that to restrain the lawless one you have to restrain all lawlessness. That this must be the Holy Spirit restraining because he is supressing the sin of humanity. But the passage only tells us that the restrainer is supressing the man of lawlessness, no other evidence is given to support the idea that the restrainer is somehow keeping humanity in line.

2 Thes 2:
6And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming

Is that scripture really so hard to understand for you eddielee?
Or are you pretending you don't understand it because it crushes a preconceived notion you may have had?

Did you read the entire post?

Bronzesnake.

Hi Bronze,

Here we have a choice; temptation in revelation 3:8 & 10 and the wrath in Isaiah 26:20-21

I firmly believe Rev.3:10 is a promise in the following wording:

Rev 3:10   Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee
from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell
upon the earth.


tereo {tay-reh'-o} keep
1) to attend to carefully, take care of
 a) to guard
 b) metaph. to keep, one in the state in which he is
 c) to observe
 d) to reserve: to undergo something


the essence of 3:10 is in the understanding of the greek ground word translated as "keep"
wich means in greek "guard" and not the latter "from" or grek ek or ex wich means
1) out of, from, by, away from

peirasmos {pi-ras-mos'} temptation
1) an experiment, attempt, trial, proving
 a) trial, proving: the trial made of you by my bodily condition, since condition served as to test the love of the Galatians toward Paul (Gal. 4:14)
 b) the trial of man's fidelity, integrity, virtue, constancy
1) an enticement to sin, temptation, whether arising from the desires or from the outward circumstances
2) an internal temptation to sin
 a) of the temptation by which the devil sought to divert Jesus the Messiah from his divine errand
3) of the condition of things, or a mental state, by which we are enticed to sin, or to a lapse from the faith and holiness
4) adversity, affliction, trouble: sent by God and serving to test or prove one's character, faith, holiness
 c) temptation (i.e. trial) of God by men
1) rebellion against God, by which his power and justice are, as it were, put to the proof and challenged to show themselves

As controversial as it may sound, Rev 3:10 is a promise that guards one for temptation, it apparently
doesn't deal with any rapture, it points toward celestial protection  as depicted in:

Dan 12:1   And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the
children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a
nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall
be found written in the book.

`amad {aw-mad'} stand up
1) to stand, remain, endure, take one's stand
 a) (Qal)
1) to stand, take one's stand, be in a standing attitude, stand forth, take a stand, present oneself, attend upon, be or become servant of
2) to stand still, stop (moving or doing), cease
3) to tarry, delay, remain, continue, abide, endure, persist, be steadfast
4) to make a stand, hold one's ground
5) to stand upright, remain standing, stand up, rise, be erect, be upright
6) to arise, appear, come on the scene, stand forth, appear, rise up or against
7) to stand with, take one's stand, be appointed, grow flat, grow insipid
 b) (Hiphil)
1) to station, set
2) to cause to stand firm, maintain
3) to cause to stand up, cause to set up, erect
4) to present (one) before (king)
5) to appoint, ordain, establish
 c) (Hophal) to be presented, be caused to stand, be stood before


malat {maw-lat'} delivered
1) to slip away, escape, deliver, save, be delivered
 a) (Niphal)
1) to slip away
2) to escape
3) to be delivered
 b) (Piel)
1) to lay, let slip out (of eggs)
2) to let escape
3) to deliver, save (life)
 c) (Hiphil)
1) to give birth to
2) to deliver
 d) (Hithpael)
1) to slip forth, slip out, escape
2) to escape


Here is another controversy; Micheal stands up "for the children of thy people" and at the end of
the scripture it mentions the magic "escape"-word. Not the guard or keep word that used before.

So first he guards, and then he delivers. There is a space of time between those 2.

Remember: I mentioned Dan 12:1 with the rapture, yet you mentioned Rev 3:10 with the guard (not rapture).

______________

Next:

Isa 26:20   Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers,
and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a
little moment, until the indignation be overpast.


cheder {kheh'-der} thou into thy chambers
1) chamber, room, parlour, innermost or inward part, within

chabah {khaw-bah'} hide
1) to withdraw, hide, hide oneself
 a) (Qal) to withdraw
 b) (Niphal) to hide oneself, remain hidden, withdraw

m@`at {meh-at'} or m@`at {meh-awt'} little while
1) littleness, few, a little, fewness
 a) little, small, littleness, fewness, too little, yet a little
 b) like a little, within a little, almost, just, hardly, shortly, little worth

za`am {zah'-am} indignation
1) anger, indignation

"thy chambers" clearly points toward prayer as it is written in:

Luk 21:36   Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted
worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
( Luk 21:35   For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. )

pagis {pag-ece'} snare
1) snare, trap, noose
 a) of snares in which birds are entangled and caught
1) implies unexpectedly, suddenly, because birds and beasts are caught unawares
 b) a snare, i.e. whatever brings peril, loss, destruction
1) of a sudden and unexpected deadly peril
2) of the allurements and seductions of sin
3) the allurements to sin by which the devil holds one bound
4) the snares of love
 
Here in luke 21:36 we have the escape-word again this time in connection with snare (as opposed to
temptation) And this snare-word carries in greek the word "destruction" and "the general effect of
yielding to sin" in it. Clearly pointing towards wrath after temptation; effectively not being kept
from it.

It is not a coincidence that both scriptures holding the much prized "escape" or "rapture" word carry
wrath or death in it, not temptation that comes before the yielding to sin.

This, my fiend, is the period of "Jacobs Trouble" as Dan 12:1 proves.

_________________

Then what is the temptation that leads to destruction ?
Paul writes:

1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

AFTER the period of "peace and safety" they shall not escape.

olethros {ol'-eth-ros} destruction
1) ruin, destroy, death
 a) for the destruction of the flesh, said of the external ills and troubles by which the lusts of the flesh are subdued and destroyed

ekpheugo {ek-fyoo'-go} ekpheugo {ek-fyoo'-go}
1) to flee out of, flee away
 a) to seek safety in flight
 b) to escape

The destruction depicted here is the period of wrath, a period that follows the well known "peace and safety" era that really starts the 70th week of Daniel.

Here again the "escape" word is named after the period, not before.

[to be continued]

Answers to Questions:
1. No;
2. No; Assumption: I don't understand it.
3. Yes;

I made some points that were disregarded, instead of addressing them you focused on my supposed ignorance/self deception.

I apologize for sounding as though I was insinuating that you were ignorant eddielee. I was tired, and I now see that I could have worded it better.

 I don't have much time at the moment, but I will address your last two posts later tonight.

Take care my friend.

Bronzesnake.

eddielee...

 
 You're really splitting hairs here eddie. If that verse stood on it's own, without any further relevant rapture verses, then you may have a case. However, put that verse in relation to the many relevant rapture verses (which I have pasted) and you really have to concede, it's contextual meaning is more suited to being in reference to a "snatching away" or to be taken away from temptation, as opposed to being protected through temptation. We are always under the protection of Jesus, why all of a sudden would it be any different.


 You forgot to add the remaining relevant verses my friend, which clearly state we are not included among those who remain on the earth at that time...we are already gone. The warning is for those who are left behind.

 How can you separate tribulation from wrath?
The word "tribulation" is a descriptive word used to describe the condition of the earth during His wrath. God's wrath includes the entire seven year period. The seven years are described as the final tribulation time, when God pours His wrath upon the non believers and followers of satan. Many will be saved after the rapture, and will be persecuted and hunted the entire time. Many will be beheaded during the seven years, and they will be raptured at that time.


1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.  


 1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.  


 1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.  


1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.  


 1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as [do] others; but let us watch and be sober.  


1Th 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.  


 1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.  


 1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,


 
 I'm not sure what you are attempting to insinuate with that verse my friend.
 That verse covers a timeline which culminates with His second coming, and judgement of the non believers at the end of the 1,000 year reign my friend, as the following verse leads us to understand...

 Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt.

 When does that happen?
It happens after the 1,000 year reign...

 Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.  


 Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.  


 Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Bronzesnake

 It appears as though the Kraken has been vanquished!

Bronze: Again you refer to verses that either are placed very convenient in your view but other, more unconventional even controversial interpretations, defy your reasoning with a gracefull smile.

Bronze, something needs to be said what i've said already three times here, and I'm not tired to say it once more as you as a scripture scholar touched one of the most precious scripture and turned it into a lie (Dan12:1):

I have been raptured, I have seen the New Jerusalem, i've experienced the New Body we will receive.

God HIMSELF explained me what Dan 12:1 meant and clearly stated that i'll live and stand on my both 2 feet to see Dan 12:6

I don't actually care what type of scripture you want to throw at that mr Bookworm, mocking God that way, you need a relationship with Him and pray that He'll remove the lies out of your system.

And then I return to my first response to kraken in this thread:
" Let all who live in the USA leave now or believe the lie"
Same thing goes for Europe

FYI

twobombs...

 We have a difference of opinion on doctrine. I have provided many scriptural examples to show how, and why I come to my understanding. You have provided nothing but insults and innuendo, including vague references to scriptures without any further explanation as to how, or why you come to the conclusions that you have made. That in itself speaks volumes. You claim "God HIMSELF explained me" you probably mean "explained it to me", and that's fine my friend, but you can't seriously believe that statement makes you infallible. Jimmy Jones, David Koresh, and countless others of that ilk have professed that they got their doctrine straight from God Himself, and look how twisted their understanding was. You might want to pray on that.

 You made the following statement....


"I have experienced the new body we will receive" hmmm, that's like saying, "I have received the new car today, that I'm getting next week"

 I'll ask you a few question in relation to that foolhardy statement in my next post.

 You should take your own advice my friend..."you need a relationship with Him and pray that He'll remove the lies out of your system."

 I don't mind being called a "bookworm", God tells us we should study His Word, you should try it sometime my friend. The sad reality here is that some "Christian" people feel that being a good Christian includes hurling insults, and accusing their brothers and sisters of mocking God, and lying, whenever they disagree - you're obviously one of them. Is everyone who you disagree with a liar, or is it only me?
 
  I will not permit you to call me a liar, or accuse me of mocking God. I am very serious about my personal relationship with Jesus, and I am not egotistical and proud enough in myself to believe God favours me above all others in giving me a superior doctrinal intellect, and 100% correct knowledge of His scriptures, above and beyond all the brilliant biblical schlolars and deciples throughout our history. I have strong beliefs in regards to many biblical doctrines, however, if I were to receive credible scriptural understanding that was contrary to any of my beliefs - I would accept the Truth regardless if I appear "wrong" or not. This is not about me being right, and you being wrong my friend. It's about human beings who believ and love Jesus, who are struggling to understand and obey God to the very best of our ability.

 Once we turn it into a compitition, we set ourselves up for failure. We then begin to believe we have the exclusive Truth straight from God Himself, and that anyone who disagrees with our "God given wisdom" is a "liar" and a "mocker of God"  That is a very dangerous road to travel on my friend.

This is your last warning, please don't do it again.
 We are Christians twobombs, we can disagree with each other without the insults and false accusations.

Bronzesnake.

 

Bronze: I am not your friend, I am your brother.
Diffence in doctrine, so be it.
Making basic scripture interpretation look crooked, defining the
Word again with that big brain of yours, and eating propaganda
regarding the koresh issue like candy makes you once again
a baby in Christ (albeit with a big brain)

And once again I found you eating candy, hands in the cookie jar so to speak.

Want to hear more lies ? OCB & 9/11 ? Keep reading trash and
keep dumping it of this forum. More sucklings might like it, but
the stuff you present is not food, it's sooo sweet it makes me
 vomit.

The reality of the number of the beast tatood on someones body
will wake you up from this dream in wich you are living, stuff I
can only call  "the pre-trib hallucination"

http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/news/020131a.asp?option=print

As my footnote reads I will not always be around to carry the
flame of this warning : be warned however the pre-trib attitude
is dangerous when there is more then enough evidence pointing
towards post-trib.

Sorry Bronze, I didn't write that. That post is from TwoBombs.

The last thing I wrote was concerning the restrainer.

 My apologies my friend. I had a pancreatitis attack recently, so I've lost a fair bit of sleep. Again - I apologize.

Bronzesnake.

 Perhaps you could stop frothing at the mouth long enough to answer one question...

 when do the 7 vials of God's wrath take effect in relation to the Rapture and the Second Coming?

 We are not appointed for wrath. However, that only comes directly from the Holy Bible. I do admit that your source is far more credible than the Holy Bible, after all, you speak directly with God, so if God says we are appointed for wrath, then you must be right, and the Holy Bible must be wrong. ;)

  You're going to be a busy person twobombs, as there are no doubt many other Christians on this forum and in your neck of the woods who may disagree with you on any particular biblical doctrine. You'd better get busy attacking them personally... you know, call them liars, and accusing them of mocking God. After all, you do speak directly with God don't you? isn't that where you get your superior biblical wisdom from? I don't see any scriptural corroboration from you twobombs, only childish attacks. On the other hand, I have provided the basis for my beliefs with scriptures, Old & New Testament.

  I will offer no further rebuttal toward your hate inspired postings my friend.
 I will let your last post stand as an example to others as to the extent your narcissism and sarcastic attitude towards your fellow Christian brothers who may happen to disagree with your "God given" doctrinal wisdom.

Bronzesnake

Bronze: once again I am not your friend, I am your brother.

To-day and tomorrow your doctrines (and mine) are and
will be tested in the Real World (tm)

God intervened in my Real World(tm) to explain a couple of things,
to save me from falling.

The pre-trib doctrine will prove and is already proving to be false.
The thief in the night if not a thief at sundown, my brother.

I hate the injustice brought and wrought by the pretrib doctrine.

But not you, nor anyone on this forum.

Hey guys,

I have been away for a while, but have enjoyed reading some of the comments on this thread.  Bronze, you have been a busy poster here....some good stuff!

Twobombs, I have a question about something you said in the last post....and no I am not picking a fight.   What is it about pre-trib doctrine that you believe is already proving to be false?   And also, what injustice do you speak of?

Just not sure I understand where you are coming from.

Grace and Peace!