ChristiansUnite Forums

Jesus describes the return of the Son of Man (Jesus's return) in Luke 17:22 to His disciples.  He then relates it to two stories in the following verses.  


1. Luke 17:26-Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man.  People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark.  Then the flood came and destroyed them all.  

In this story we learn that
   a. People are not fearing God.
   b. God provided safety for the righteous.(Ark, instruction)
   c. Destruction came After the righteous were saved from    
       God's wrath.

2. Luke 17:28-It was the same in the days of Lot.  People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building.  But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.  

In this story we learn that

   a. People are not fearing God.
   b. God provided a route of safety for the righteous (a
       command to come out of Sodom and not look back)
   c. Destruction came after the righteous had been saved
       from God's wrath. (right after Lot had left Sodom it  
       was destroyed)

Both stories tell how God saves us from His wrath.
1 Thessalonians 5:9-For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.    

Christians will be raptured.  The question is when, in regards to the tribulation hour.    

If the kingdom of God is yet to come then why did Paul and John write as though they were already in the kingdom?

If the kingdom is yet to come then what is Christ King over when He is refered to as such?

We can learn from what happened to Noah and to Lot as to when Christians will be raptured. Noah entered into the ark BEFORE the flood began, and Lot departed from Sodom BEFORE the fiery judgements were poured out.

In order to bring about the great tribulation, the Man of Sin -- the Antichrist -- must appear and taken control of this earth. As long as the Church and the Holy Spirit are on this earth, Satan and the Beast as restrained from taking full control. Therefore the Church will be "taken up" or "caught up" just before, or very shortly before the Man of Sin begins his reign (2 Thess. 2:1-12).

The "Great Tribulation" will only begin 3 1/2 years after the Beast has taken control of this earth. It is when the Antichrist set's up his image in the Temple of Jerusalem [which will be rebuilt in the near future] and blasphemes God that the worst judgments come upon this earth. After 3 1/2 years of the Great Tribulation, the Lord Jesus Christ will return with His saints to establish His kingdom on this earth.

2 Thessaloninans 2:7-For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.

If He in the above passage is referring to the Holy Spirit, which I think it does, it would tell us more about meeting Jesus in the clouds.  The Spirit would be out of the antichrists way because we have been brought up to meet with Jesus while the earth and the wicked experience God's wrath.  The holy Spirit would be with the christians, of course, and not with the wicked left behind.    

As for the timing of the rapture in relation of the tribulation, I find many verses that oppose the post-tribulation view.  We are told that we are not to suffer wrath but to inherit salvation through Jesus (1 Thessalonians 5:9).  So when is God's wrath?  We know we will not be affected by it according to scripture.  If His wrath is going to come in the middle of the tribulation, then it is quite possible that we will all be around until then or shortly before that takes place.  

No one knows the day of hour of His return.  But during the tribulation, in the middle, the antichrist takes the throne and declares himself god.  The bible says that the Jews will have to wait 1260 days, 3.5 years, until their true God returns.  Sounds to me like they could be aware of the day, maybe even hour of His return.  We however, do not.

Peace

Ollie:
Although it isn't directly related to this thread, I'll invite you to go thru the book of Matthew, noting all of the characteristics of the Kingdom of Heaven, and the Kingdom of God. Do a side-by-side, then if you want, start another thread for discussion.

It's an interesting study.  ;)

If the first half of the tribulation consists of christians being persecuted, we could still be here because Jesus said we would be persecuted and would be blessed for suffering for His names sake.  This persecution is not God's wrath, I believe.  But we are going to have to wait to see.  

There are two aspects to the Kingdom of God revealed in the NT:

1 . "The Kingdom of God is within you"
Referring to those who have been born again and have therefore entered into the kingdom of God, since every believer is immediately declared righteous, placed in God's family, made an heir of God and a joint-heir with Christ, and also made a king-priest unto God. Thus believers are already within an invisible Kingdom, since "my kingdom is not of this world". But Christ is presently King in Heaven, seated at the right hand of the Father.

2. "Thy Kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven"
As long as Satan and his demonic hosts have power and freedom in the first and second heavens and on this earth, and as long as evil men have power and freedom on this earth, Christ's kingdom on earth remains in abeyance.  When He returns the second time "with power and great glory" and with His saints, He will "make His enemies His footstool" and in reality establish His kingdom on this earth.  That is yet future, and almost the entire book of Revelation must be fulfilled for that to happen.

In your opinion  was Jesus born King?

Absolutely. Christ was born King of the Jews. Since they rejected Him, He will now come as King of kings and Lord of lords. But He will also be King of Israel, and David will be His co-regent on earth. There shall be a future Millenial Kingdom, followed by Christ's eternal rule on this redeemed earth -- the New Heavens and the New Earth will see Christ as King of kings and Lord of lords. All the nations on this earth will pay homage to Him eternally. Christians will "live and reign" with Him eternally. The details have not been revealed.

Yup.

Those who talk about "pre-wrath" and "post-wrath" don't really understand God's wrath.  When God sends "strong delusion" on this earth after the Rapture of the saints and the removal of the Holy Spirit's restraint on Satan, that is indeed an expresion of God's wrath. The fiery judgments that follow the setting up of the Abomination of Desolation is a FURTHER expression of God's wrath.

So in reality, the entire 70th "week" of Daniel -- the 7-year "tribulation period" -- is altogether an expression of God's wrath against sin, evil and the rejection of the Gospel and His beloved Son: "...because they RECEIVED NOT the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And FOR THIS CAUSE God shall send them STRONG DELUSION, that they should believe a lie: THAT THEY ALL MIGHT BE DAMNED who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness" (2 Thess.2:11,12).

Christians today are playing word games with very serious and sombre spiritual realites and truths -- pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib. Those are just games to avoid the awful truths revealed by God. The truth is that men and women are heading towards Hell, and Christians are playing word games!

 Another yup.  Live for Him.  He died for you...  Does it get any more clear than that?

Co -regent? Jesus Christ co- regent? Has man elevated himself to be co-regent with GOD? David was a man, a man after Gods own heart, but still just a man. David was a sinner as you and i are. Co-regent? I can see how different views of scripture come about.. like posttrib  pretrib baptise or not but no where in scripture does the King become kings there is on Kings of kings goodness.....Christ is KING of Kings He was born so...

No. Man has not elevated himself, but the Lord has, by His infinite grace, made all believers "friends" and "brothers", as well as "kings" and "priests", "heirs of God, and JOINT-HEIRS with Christ". David will be "co-regent" [the word is not important, it is the idea] in the sense that he will reign over Israel under Christ.

No one can be equal with the King of Glory, the King of kings and the Lord of lords. But God, in His grace and kindness, gives His children the privilege to be "heirs of God" and "JOINT-HEIRS" with Christ. It is in that sense that David is "co-regent". So let's not start misinterpreting or misunderstanding God's grace.

Co regent is what you said and it is the idea that i can not stomach not the word.  You have stated your heart.  I am interested to see if any one else will stand against your co- regentcy or if they will be tolerant  and accepting...  of such heresy ...


I have read enough of yoru posts to know you dont make word errors like i do yoiu write well...you said just what you meant to say.

 ;D

You wont find me worshipping King David!  That man couldn't keep his equipment in his pants no matter how his heart was.  he was flawed and imperfect as the rest of us.  

The Kingdom of God is already here and is in the heart of each of us that rise up with Him in our heart in His name.

We can't know the day or the hour and we don't know exactly how to understand the scriptures.  None of that has any bearing on how we are to do what we know to do and avoid doing what we know to be wrong.

Peace